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June 17, 2019

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Brian
You’re losing it big guy.
In your earnest search for Truth and reality you go and muller Anon.
Shame on you.
A person your age should know better.

If after all is said and done it turns out that everyone around him took advantage and Gurinder was a victim of a big scam, I'd just laugh to myself and say "Ok. Good thing an innocent guy didn't get in trouble." And maybe I'm wrong, but I think everyone who at this point in time believes Gurinder is less than pure would do the same, assuming there was new data that exonerated him.

Again I could be completely wrong about this, but I don't believe that many of the faithful will do the same if more damning evidence piles up and it does lead to an unfavorable verdict against the guru. Whether he's admonished for knowingly taking bad loans, or worse, I predict the faithful will maintain their position that he's innocent no matter what.

And contrary to what Osho Robbins recently said about love, I think this is a completely loveless relationship between disciple and their distant guru. It's a relationship of fear and power. You can't love someone you don't know. A man you see in pictures, or at best on a stage 400 yards away isn't the object of love, but of fantasy, and a negative form of hope.

Love never comes into the equation on either the guru or disciple's side. The anonymous disciple in the crowd hopes that the godman they fantasize about will save them from the hell they fear.

The anonymous guru hopes he uses his influence and power well enough that the crowd maintains their focus on him because of his fear of losing face and bringing shame to the family religion business that he reluctantly inherited and was forced to manage.

Who cares anyway. This is all just a big joke and I need an editor if I'm gonna ramble on so long.


@Jesse
you wrote:
"And contrary to what Osho Robbins recently said about love, I think this is a completely loveless relationship between disciple and their distant guru. It's a relationship of fear and power. You can't love someone you don't know. A man you see in pictures, or at best on a stage 400 yards away isn't the object of love, but of fantasy, and a negative form of hope."

Only thing is, Jesse, not everyone is that distant from him. Sheena for instance was very close to him. So are others. Many make regular visits to dera to get closer to him.

I agree that it's not real love because I don't think real love exists at all because there is always another motive. In this case - it's salvation. The disciple wants something in return - so he doesn't really love. In reality its
a business deal.

Brian she was trying to point out facts from reports that you refuse to see. You ask for anyone to point out facts that refute your claims and when someone does you call it blind faith. If you think people like her her have blind faith in the RSSB Guru then people like you have blind faith in anything or anyone that speaks against the RSSB Guru. Face it Brian. Michael is right shame on you.

Michael, so what specifically do you think is inaccurate in my blog post? Anything? Or does the truth disturb you?


Reading irrational comments on this blog from people afflicted with blind faith, I feel like I'm viewing a murder trial where a defense attorney repeats over and over, "Members of the jury, his fingerprints weren't on the murder weapon, so you must find my client not guilty."

That's absolutely valid if you're talking about an unreasoning blind faith
that says a mountain of circumstantial evidence must be ignored and
GSD given a free pass.

But the HC has ruled and the Dhillon family and others' assets have been
garnisheed. So, it's appropriate to suspect each and every one of the
Dhillons of complicity. The chant of "Pay, da man, Dude" is certainly
appropriate once the court ruled. Where it became objectionable, in
my opinion, was before that moment.

I think it's objectionable If you've already decided GSD is guilty of the
financial criminality too. Pile-on charges of greed, con artistry, heresy,
and serial acts of inhumanity are premature as well in my opinion. Of
course, Blogger Ji's disagree. They know and proclaim only the "facts"
and what's plain to see. Others are simply too feckless and swayed by
blind faith to see it.

There's not even the scantest lip service to the notion that GSD might
have been in the dark about details of the criminality. The verdict is
final, complete, unchallengeable : If GSD wasn't the mastermind, he
was at least in it up to his neck. Tar and feather the cad!

After all, he purports to be God even if I don't believe it. Never mind
others mighta whispered to him "Things are going well. Money and
donations are pouring in. " or "There's a temporary shortfall, this month.
Sunny's already taking care of it". The Blog pundits reply "Nonsense!
C'mon, ya blinkered dolts... you're excusing a criminal, just like in Nazi
Germany... GSD hadda know."

For some, the narrative then moves into a diatribe about the danger of
any religious belief, the plethora of false guru's, the glories of science or
atheism as the true religion.

For others though, the HC's "guilty" has turned into a golden opportunity
for psycho-babble about redeeming GSD. If only he would confess his sins
before God and Sangat, the faithful flock would rush forgivingly to his side.
Hand-in-hand, shepherd and flock will get through the crisis strengthened
and emerge rejoicing from the tents. Strains of "Nearer my god to thee" will
resound.

Innocent until proven guilty in the court of law. This is not a trial by media. Let the courts decide.

Osho, when I think of closeness between a disciple and guru, I'm thinking of romantic old stories of Mira and Ravidas or something. Aside from the fact of what you said about other motives, in this age of jet setting global gurus, who really has a chance to know these gurus? It's hard to know ones own family in this day and age.


I predict the faithful will maintain their position that he's innocent no matter what.

No one should if he's convicted. GSD's assets have been
garnisheed so he/family were complicit in accepting
fraudulent loans and on the hook for repayment.


I think this is a completely loveless relationship between disciple and their distant guru. It's a relationship of fear and power. You can't love someone you don't know.

I agree with the last sentence.


Love never comes into the equation on either the guru or disciple's side. The anonymous disciple in the crowd hopes that the godman they fantasize about will save them from the hell they fear.

No, I mostly disagree.

That captures religious cults beautifully. Mysticism, on the other hand,
promises removal of fear. Unlike cults, no true mystic tries to control
through fear. The meditative practice brings the knowledge that
dispels fear.

If it doesn't after sincere effort, then mystics say discard your practice
and look for something better. If you find it, tell me and I'll follow it too.
That's the advice Great Master gave Ishwar Puri.

Incidentally, the guru 400' distant on the stage, is only there to help
you find the inner guru.


Who cares anyway. This is all just a big joke and I need an editor if I'm gonna ramble on so long.

I agree... me too :)

Vijay, Anon is not pointing out facts. S/he is attempting to reduce the amount of available facts we're allowed to discuss. At this point there's an entire ecosystem of info and all Anon will engage in is a discussion of whether "master" is personally mentioned by name in one part of it all.

Who cares anymore. There are real questions to be answered.

What will you do if Gurinder goes to jail? Will it shake your faith? Will you meditate outside of Tihar prison or will you finally abandon your heresies and submit to the will of the TRUE Sant Sat Guru, Sri Sri Mahatma Ram Rahim Singh Ji Maharaj and His Holy Trucks and Tractors?

Get a clue man. Ram Rahim Singh is LORD and he's making power moves from prison like a boss. Gurinder needs to sit down and shut up with all his yapping about "the one" unless he means The One True God, Ram Rahim Singh.

Dungeness, you wrote "Incidentally, the guru 400' distant on the stage, is only there to help you find the inner guru."

I heartily disagree with that statement. So when Sawan Singh and Charan Singh (in the early days) were the gurus, the sangat would literally sit less than 5ft from them. I guess they didn't need help finding the inner master.

That distance gap is an actual calculation of how fast someone could get up from the front row and get to the stage before the security sevadar could grab him. That's where the distance comes from. It's not 400ft.

I love how people dream up mystical significance to this kind of stuff.

"Innocent until proven guilty in the court of law. This is not a trial by media. Let the courts decide."

No, JD. Let people with brains use them.The court is only useful insofar as they have access to the state's semi-monopoly on violent force and can use it to gather evidence which otherwise would remain hidden. I don't need their analysis. I'm capable of making my own decision.

I believe that OJ Simpson murdered his wife and that Ron Goldman dude. I don't need a jury or a judge to tell me that because he added a bunch of water weight and made his hands fat on the request of his scummy lawyer that he didn't kill anyone.

A lot of you still don't understand why courts exist. Hint: It's not that they should provide you with your beliefs.

Osho Robbins, it's true a few may get "close" relatively speaking. Most, however, will never get to know the man "behind the scenes;" just the persona on the dais/stage.

Jesse, Ram Rahim Singh is NOT the LORD. I AM. Go to the 9th plane and see; that's where I reside in my true, radiant lordly form. If you don't see me as LORD, you need 3rd eye spectacles.

Anon is the only one bothered to read the actual court and financial reports.

Live Mintiness or Spence’s “expert” opinion or an anonymous email from your pal down the pub, don’t count - neither do any other anonymous or fake news reports.

The CoC disciples already made up their mind for a hangin’ and a lynchin’ long before any court was assembled.

Trial by media. They’ve skewed the facts to such an extent as to suggest sole fraudulent culpability of the guru when the facts are so far from that - it’s laughable. Yet they continue to pile on article after article of 2nd hand headsay from sources Live Mintiness and The Silly Times of India - I mean it’s total bullshit - not an objective mind in the CoC house.

Vijay and Michael are quite correct if you going to ask for a different take on things - don’t throw a hissy fit when it’s given to you, especially when it’s based on the primary source material, not the Minty mint.

Mr. Curious, Ram Rahim goes to the 10th level. Try again basic yogi.

Brian:
Posted by: Blogger Brian
Michael, so what specifically do you think is inaccurate in my blog post? Anything? Or does the truth disturb you?

No! The truth does not disturb me one jot.
What disturbs me about your post is your lack of compassion for Anon. You have launched a vitriol against them on a blog post. How do you think Anon feels when reading it.
You’re big hearted atheist compassion is a delusion.

“Anon, you explained away the court's decision. Typical and what I would expect. Keep on keeping on, you have just proven exactly what most people here have determined. Doesn't matter if it slapped you in the face, the truth is meaningless. You don't get brownie points for writing what you're writing.”

This is the ultimate truth... people will believe and justify whatever they need to if what they believe in is working for them.

But those who are open to listening to both sides and willing to focus on the facts will have a much better grasp on reality.

So, where do we go from here?

Truth is for truth seekers. Blind devotion is for those afraid of the truth.

Blogger Brian;
My point is nothing to do with your version of the Truth per se.
My singular point is the harsh words you have used to describe Anon.

YOU:
a commenter on this blog who doesn't have the courage to use her actual name in comments, but goes by "Anon." She's been frantically trying to excuse Gurinder Singh Dhillon etc.…

Amar demolished Anon's twisted thinking in his own comment.

Me: Compare your words to those listed below. Bearing in mind that Spence is a devotee/satsangi.

SPENCE:
Hi Anon
I appreciate your thoughtful replies.
You and I simply believe different information.
And I understand that you view those sources differently and have a different conclusion.
I respect that.

Further; to Amar.
I think you can let Anon and Georgy off the hook, because they make their own case better than you or I.
This is a public blog, so anyone can see for themselves both arguments, and the quality of those arguments.
I'm glad they have given full expression here to their positions.

GEORGY PORGY:
Man, this Anon is good.

ANON:
Amar I will stop this conversation with you here. I’ve always been respectful of you regardless of the difference in opinion. But I find the feeling is not mutual so thank you and good luck.

Anon’s words above, show a thoughtful articulate riposte to a blogger that disagreed with them.

Do you think you should retract your Coward and Twisted thinking remarks. OR are you afraid of the Truth?

Michael, why does everyone have to always talk like a diplomat? It's so boring, and playing by those rules leaves one at a disadvantage.

The reason I think some are annoyed with Anon is because s/he has tried restricting the conversation. At first glance it seems like s/he is doing it in good faith, but when Spence goes to great lengths to explain why "master's" name need not be present in the SEBI report to substantiate at least some of the claims against him, it becomes clear that it's not in good faith but an attempt to deflect from real evidence.

When someone plays these shady little intellectual games politely, you're better off using harsh language rather than playing by their rules, because that's their intention- to create the rules. You can't use the facts you want, and you can't talk to them how you want either. In their mind they always win this way.

Go look through a bunch of internet comments and I bet you'll find thousands of examples of this. "Well, if you're gonna get mad it means you've lost already." Humans are little snakes. We're all playing games of trickery.

Michael, who is afraid of the truth? This is not a debate. This is a discussion about what the facts and court rulings have discovered and have been ruled on. ie: freezing assets of GSD and his family, among others.

If you're in search of the "truth", then you have to be open to the possibility that it won't go your way. There is a chance that, no matter how slim, it means your perception could be wrong. But Anon is not acknowledging that. There is a complete denial that GSD could be wrong. How can you look for the truth when you don't keep an open mind to the possibilities. You're introducing bias.

The fact that Anon can't come to grips with this is what is frustrating, and that's the same level of ignorance and arrogance one gets when discussing this with other satsangis. It's pointless to have a rational discussion when you're not open to any possibilities.

As I posted in another comment, if GSD is exonerated, then I am open to acknowledging that. Anon cannot and has not said that GSD is in any way complicit. So who's being open minded and who is not?

Doesn't mean that I will go back to following GSD again if he's exonerated from all of this, but at least I'm open about anything and free to the facts so far. I would expect the same from anyone else if they're arguing any side of the equation.

My earlier comment to other blog seems to have drowned which basically wished for answers to a set questionnaire to be sent to Baba jee by one among us if our faiths are going to be lifted by the saneful. reply He gives like, His conveying the circumstances He was trapped in, His. clear denial, etc .

Else His acceptance for the. Fin mess. may embolden case for more of disbelief.Yes. provided He acknowledges and answers a stress call from His sangat on this blog incldg Ex.

May I say that faith or belief towards any other Master in the likes of Christ, Baba Nanak and for that matter even Baba Jaimal Singh who had very little possessions to feed themselves and were ideals as Perfect Saints will be just blind till either of . them helps you succeed spiritually i. e if inside truth gets revealed behind the curtain Or inner. wall that we. face during meditation and much more due. to them.

Till such time the Truth gets revealed we are just the same mentally or. psychologically. and this is therefore, irrespective of the. worldly credentials of the Saint in question while His spiritual mastery has to be believed initially.

As one can see,
there are still quite a few among us whose faith has been transformed into facts.by now , courtesy the. Same Baba. while others are struggling and some have left Him for good.

However a clean slate will always preferred by the always bowing disciples. But what if He just have His own worldly ways.

And... pivot.

Speaking of Truth and Ilusions, I love this quote:

“Only through uncertainty is there the potential for understanding.”

This has been out for a while but is a must see Ted Talk on perceptions and illusions:
https://youtu.be/mf5otGNbkuc

🐝

Sonya, I like what you posted.

“Only through uncertainty is there the potential for understanding.”

Brilliant.

I can't see death b'cos I can not bear pain in the flowing eyes of his left over relatives - waiting for their turn next in the times to follow.

This makes me struggle to escape this nuisance forced upon me or us- to watch others in pain helplessly in myriad ways and let myself surrendering on each occassion and shall be finally, one last time.

What is the way out. Just beleive in the available best doctor of spirit -Consciousness. Take the prescribed medicine with obvious faith in Him. Hope you get cured but for most , not immediately.

Sincere thinkers about Self are restless in this world due to reasons said at the outset.

For rest this dpirituality stuff and associated faith- a burden may not be necessary, i think. They perhaps can not slog themselves blindly for how long now under most trying circumstances. ever with a Saint having behaved most outrageously in money matters as claimed by the media and available proofs.

What happens if GSD can’t/won’t pay the court his outstanding debts (owed to Malvinder & Shivinder)? How long does he have?
Surely, if he had the money, he would’ve cleared these debts already, if only to prevent the beyzti and humiliation that has predictably followed on the back of each development.

JS, great question. I've also wondered about this. I've been assuming that Malvinder and his attorneys have a fairly good sense of the value of the assets that the Dhillon family owns, and what they own.

I agree: if the RSSB guru had been able to pay Malvinder what the Dhillon family owes him, seemingly he would have done it by now to avoid the embarrassment of the High Court of Delhi basically labeling him the Deadbeat Guru.

Jesse
Good point. That’s probably the kindest thing you have ever posted
Really, I just wanted to ruffle Brian’s feathers. Why not?
Here’s a different approach.
You can all go take a fuckin walk
As the song goes...

By the way. Love your Manjit posts.

Dears
Dr Eugene Genetics has given me back my phone and has allowed me to post one Choprabollox.
I have been ruminating on the power of nowness. This must not be fused or con fused with the power of nowhere or now, here.
But now that you are here......
Never before, in the pre History of unrecorded time, was there ever a now.
When the vedas were scripted or scribbled in Vegas by Vargas, there wasn’t a now. Nowadays, thanks to enlisting enlightenment, we can access this new nowness.
Meditation on the nowness is as simple as closing both eyes, for now.
We are no one. Know one now in nowness.
Time has ceased in the casual region. Cause without affect, effectively.

Hi Meditator. I saw you previous post about the questionnaire and this one. I think that's a non starter. Even if he wanted to fill it out, his handlers would not allow it. If he could fill out a response, he could easily have put out a statement or used the RSSB Youtube channel to post an audio file stating one way or the other.

Have my doubts on that one, but sincerely, it would be welcome.

Dear Sonya
9ivot.
The Truth Potential is to only understand uncertain Illusions.

You have hit the “Now” firmly on the Head.

Blogger Brian
@ Blind faith prevents defenders of RSSB Guru from seeing realty

Blind faith prevents RSSB followers not to interfere in RSSB Guru' s personal business transactions and problems because they are in search of their own realty and real self . They are in search of God and they are experiencing the realty of path, they travel on the path daily and they experience that this path is leading them to realty,they enjoy doing Simran.Form of the Guru is the Loveliest to them.They contemplate upon it to create more and more love for the RSSB Guru,They enjoy the process of vacating body till third eye,They enjoy the sweet melody of Shabad Dhun and they understand that this priceless path and sweetest path has been bestowed upon to them by their Guru.Hence they are ready to sacrifice everything including their heads to their Guru . They know well that all other people are blind in the world who do not know the realty of this fake world,nor do they know of their real home,not to talk of the path

Hence,RSSB followers are least interested in their Guru's personal business and will always be ready to defend him in his personal problem also.
This world is fake and so is its business.Realty is only God.Guru shows the path of realty.If something apparently seen as wrong has happened circumstantially ,knowingly or unknowingly,He will take care of it.
His followers will take care.Indian Judiciary system will take care.Govt of India will take care.
Brian,you mind your business if you have any at all. Simple thing is you know from the heart that the path if Shabad is unique,beautiful,lovelly but you could not adhere to it because of your ego and Laziness,whereas the sweet melody can be listened only on elimination of ego and live to the Master.I feel you never loved the Master.
Now ,you are wasting time on analysing business accounts of the RSSV Guru.
Again,please understand ,true seekers are only interested in progress of the sweet path leading to REALTY which can only be achieved with the help and love of their Beloved Master.
Brian, why should followers listen to you since you have failed badly on thus path and left it.

Why are you on this blog, Dharam? Shouldn't you be listening to the sound / talking to Golden Inner Gurinder?

Hello Mike England and Dr Eugene Genetics, such visionary truth expounded from within from you both.

Such magnificence like Jesse says in another thread "Welcome to the dark side" here on this blog. So much fun embracing the dark side, so much angst when trying to embrace the light, and who can find balance somewhere in the middle? This middle road is not exciting and people do like some kind of excitement. Also, why should we believe in someone who apparently somehow managed to become enlightened. Its all just stories about superior beings, gurus, gods and such. I look forward to your wise answers to the mystery of life, and by the way I do enjoy my illusions, much more positive than the so called truth ;)

"By the way. Love your Manjit posts"
Now that he completely ignores my instigating, id like to remember why I taunt him so much in the first place. Because I have no memory about it.

Telling people to stfu and f*** off is often times the most rational method to deal with a situation. I'm happy youre embracing it.

Ya know, in Hong Kong the satsang GSD’s gave focused a lot on living a simple life. I totally agree with that sentiment just seems ironic given his current set of circumstances. Perhaps he was just taunting us...

🐝

RSSB is a sort of “spiritual” totalitarianism.

This was from yesterday’s Ballsheet Times of New India:
Financial Entanglement
The Guru grew greedy.
He really stated he wanted real estate.
His land deals landed in squeals as his former family were formally charged.
The jet has been let.
It could be gaol for now.
Moral of the story:
Practise perfidy preaching perfection

Dear Jen
I am truly humbled that you have an interest in inspirational indpritual spirituality.
My teachings are not to be taken lightly and it’s refreshing to see that you have grasped the hidden meaning in totality.
My young Paduan can be reckless at times but his heart of hearts is in the write places.
Oneness are Nowhere

Amar,

He alone can soothe us, pacify this never ending debate, running indefinitely - iterating back and forth even when concluded by. some of. us based on the facts of the matter.

Yet it. Is. still. a monologue with view of Baba Jee missing. He may have been a scapegoat or may have done with some purpose etc.

He may.respond if we can submit to Him as His children.

Nice sentiments Meditator, but I can't go along with it. At the end of the day, he's involved in it. That's the messed up part of the whole thing. To say that there's a purpose to it, then that's the ultimate cop out.

From the Q&A sessions I've been to, which are very often, his answers seem canned and his attempts at humor, leave much to be desired. He plays the audience against anyone asking difficult questions. The Master should put anyone at ease who is asking a question, whether it is a critical one or not. I've seen the Dalai Lama answer questions and it's very inviting.

GSD needs to smile more. It's pretty pathetic when your own sangat has to ask for you to smile. If you're not supposed to take life too seriously, and as he says, just let it go, then he should do the same.

Charan Singh used to have a beautiful smile, and he smiled often.

Jesse wrote"Now that he completely ignores my instigating... "

I'm just playing hard to get, my beloved....

Dear Jen
Much of what Dr Eugene Genetics teaches or preaches is already recorded somewhere, usually either in the ether or lower asters.
He produced this about a year ago and I am able to post it now:
Such magnificence like in another dark side.
So much fun embracing angst when trying to balance somewhere.
In the middle?
This middle road is not exciting or people do like some kind of Enlightening excitement should someone somehow become excitingly enlightened.
Multi story superior beings, gurus, gods (do not) always forward wise answers to the mystery of life. They enjoy many illusions, more than the so called truth.
The Truth is the DarkSide.

When there is one less all is Oneness

Heh heh! Brilliant!

“Dears
Dr Eugene Genetics has given me back my phone and has allowed me to post one Choprabollox.
I have been ruminating on the power of nowness. This must not be fused or con fused with the power of nowhere or now, here.
But now that you are here......
Never before, in the pre History of unrecorded time, was there ever a now.
When the vedas were scripted or scribbled in Vegas by Vargas, there wasn’t a now.
Nowadays, thanks to enlisting enlightenment, we can access this new nowness.
Meditation on the nowness is as simple as closing both eyes, for now.
We are no one. Know one now in nowness.
Time has ceased in the casual region. Cause without affect, effectively.”
-- by Mike England |

Chris
Thank you for your comment 😊
These Chorabollox are for posters who take things way too seriously

Moderation of modernistic meditation provides peace by pieces

Brian/Spence/Amar
I agree with anon. The HC ruling comes from loans taken LEGALLY from the sale of Ranbaxy. Not what you all claim to be from fraudulent means.
https://business.medicaldialogues.in/delhi-high-court-directs-rssb-chief-dhillon-family-to-undertake-singh-brothers-dues-to-daiichi/amp/

Vijay, I'm pretty sure you're wrong. The Ranbaxy money came to the Singh brothers legally, but it was then illegally siphoned off into the pockets of the Dhillon family through shell companies.

Read the criminal complaint filed against Gurinder Singh Dhillon, his family, and close associates by Malvinder Singh. Here's a link, plus a post I wrote about the complaint.

https://hinessight.blogs.com/files/malav-eow-criminal-complaint.pdf

https://hinessight.blogs.com/church_of_the_churchless/2019/02/legal-filing-against-gurinder-singh-dhillon-is-fascinating-reading.html

Scroll to the lengthy list of attachments in the complaint. You'll see details of what Malvinder wants returned to him via the criminal complaint. I'm pretty sure this accounting forms a substantial part of what the High Court of Delhi garnishment order against the Dhillon family includes.

Why would Malvinder make a criminal complaint against the RSSB guru and his family if the money that ended up in the Dhillon family pockets was legally obtained? Use your brain, not your blind faith.

Brian you wrote
“Scroll to the lengthy list of attachments in the complaint. You'll see details of what Malvinder wants returned to him via the criminal complaint. I'm pretty sure this accounting forms a substantial part of what the High Court of Delhi garnishment order against the Dhillon family includes.”

Yes he claims 1000.3 crore is owed to him based on this lengthy attachments it’s on page . This is the same amount given in the article I attached above which the court has asked the Dhillon family to pay. Makes sense eh? And this cannot be illegally obtained money because the dates of these loans are in 2012 according to Anon the Sebi report says the dates of the fortis fraud occurred in 2013-2014. And the Religare fraud was in 2017. You are mixing the 2 to mislead readers of this blog and calling it fact reporting. Your the one who is wrong Brian.

You say
“Why would Malvinder make a criminal complaint against the RSSB guru and his family if the money that ended up in the Dhillon family pockets was legally obtained? ”
Because now he is in deep problems and he has lost everything and needs the help of the Guru to pay off his liabilities. Look at this letter how he claims they need the Gurus help. If those were loans that were really owed to him his tone would very different. Plus remember this is the same man who changed his story from August to now.

So in your own words...Use your Brain... it matches your name Brian. 😂

Hi Vijay

You wrote
"And this cannot be illegally obtained money because the dates of these loans are in 2012 according to Anon the Sebi report says the dates of the fortis fraud occurred in 2013-2014."

But this is false.

If you will please review Movinder's EOW again

https://hinessight.blogs.com/files/malav-eow-criminal-complaint.pdf

Pages 5 and 6 you will see that Movinder references the illegally siphoned loans to Gurinder family and associates through Modland, Fern and Best, from 2012 through 2017, and in 2018 Gurinder family and associates, through Sunhil and Shivender then acquired these shell companies through fraudulent means to hide their fraudulent finances. Ranbaxy money went to buy these and other companies, which then siphoned monies illegally back to Gurinder and family, as their other assets had been impounded by investors.

If you will review the Annexure-A1 documents in Malvinder's EOW you will see the loans dating from 2012 through 2018.

If you will then review the SEBI report you will see that they choose to limit their audit as an inter alia and premie facie review, and indicated that their report was preliminary, and not by any means the end of their investigation.

SEBI confirmed all that Malvinder had claimed above for the period they had audited up to that date, which was December of 2018.

In fact the press reported soon afterwards that the additional audits, including those of both the SEBI and the Serious Crimes division, indicated the total amount of the fraudulent and illegal monies siphoned to Gurinder family and associates was much higher.

"New Delhi/Mumbai: The alleged funds diversion at Fortis Healthcare Ltd could add up to more than ₹2,000 crore, according to the trail of funds uncovered by the Serious Fraud Investigation Office (SFIO), a government official said.

" The Securities and Exchange Board of India (Sebi), too, suspects that the total size of the Fortis fraud could be much higher than the ₹403 crore it originally estimated, a second person familiar with the development said, requesting anonymity.

" Sebi has already passed an order against Fortis to recover ₹500 crore from the Singh brothers for funds diverted to the promoter and promoter-related entities in December."

https://www.livemint.com/companies/news/fortis-fraud-may-exceed-rs-2-000-crore-says-sfio-1550522937932.html


If you will please read again the very article posted on the RSSB website you will see the earlier fate of much of the unpaid Ranbaxy loans to Gurinder family. Gurinder's financial assets at the time were repossessed by the investors.

https://www.rssb.org/news26.html

And this may have been the reason or motivation to move as much money as possible through shell companies and illegally back to Gurinder and family.

Spence, thanks for another clear and fact-filled description of the financial fraud that both benefited the RSSB guru and his family, and was aided and abetted by them in various ways, as detailed in Malvinder's criminal complaint and stories in the Indian financial press.

If nothing else, Vijay is a great example of the subject of this post: blind faith. He starts with a conclusion, "The guru must be innocent of wrongdoing," then tries to dream up facts that support his predetermined conclusion.

In contrast, you, I, and other genuine truth-seekers follow evidence and facts wherever they lead.

We make reasonable judgements based on what actually happened, not on what we wish had happened. This is why religious believers so often are wrong: they lack critical thinking skills that enable people to distinguish between reality and illusion.

Finally, Vijay, while a lot of fraudulent activity had taken place, any legal loan also becomes illegal activity when the recipient repeatedly and flagrantly violates their contractual promises.

When Gurinder, family and associates participated in several schemes to avoid the promises they made, loans became theft.

And in all those many moments, time after time, decision after decision, Gurinder demonstrated that he was no better than any of the others, and most certainly not a Sat Guru.

History has shown with painful duplication, that the followers are the last to acknowledge the crimes and lapses of their Guru.

It isn't only corrupt Guru's. There are Germans living in Brazil today who love Adolph Hitler and consider him to be God's Chosen, if not God incarnate.

Hi Brian
Thank you for your comments.

Personally, faith has been a critical part of my life and my survival. I need to believe there is something greater than me to depend upon.

And I have found that within, in spirituality, which is just a word to express a subjective experience of transcendence.

I have witnessed travel through the regions. But my monoscopic experience may just be regions of the human brain.

And through that, a connection, a deep and personal connection, an experience of the divine presence. But this could also be simply another way to experience our physical connection to this physical creation... It is intimate.

The path accurately deacribes these experiences, including the resounding Shabd. The explanations are culture bound

Sawan Singh said the practice of meditating was like a power generator compared to the actual Shabd, which is the power of a thunderstorm. One is an artificial effort to duplicate a natural phenomenon.

Having experienced these things from early childhood, whatever they are, however ecstatic, I cannot begin to imagine why anyone associated with Shabd would have any ambitions to accomplish or acquire anything else. The two things are completely polar opposites.

A teacher who has not actually reached those things might explain it... Or bad habits from the past, or....?

But one thing is certain, what Gurinder himself is doing makes sincere and persistent efforts at meditation... To become aware of that Shabd and light, all the more difficult. Rather than leading the way he is now a barrier.

A true Master is a master of life, able to fully live responsibly within the simple laws of right conduct. They are a role model to show that we can survive and live reasonably without having to compromise our ethics at all. That we can find our pleasures in simple things, and our strength to do the right thing within ourselves. In fact they are showing us how to live to the highest ethics.

On that criteria you, and others here, are the true Sat Gurus.


Spence thank you for your reply but you are wrong with most of what you write
“If you will review the Annexure-A1 documents in Malvinder's EOW you will see the loans dating from 2012 through 2018.”

Please look at it again. Loans were extended in 2012 the entries after that are interest payments not loans extended. Like said earlier these loans were given in 2012 and were all legally extended. In the mess of all this illegal actions by the 2 sets of brothers everyone is getting confused and pointing the blame to the big one who from The start took all the loans legally.

You say
“When Gurinder, family and associates participated in several schemes to avoid the promises they made, loans became theft.”
Again you are referring to Malvinders report. Spence don’t rely on what anyone says this guy is in deep problems it should be clear he is desperate and will do anything at this point to pin the blame on others

But anyways you believe what you want. I believe what Anon laid out and thank him for his research.

Hi Vijay

I'm sorry but you are mistaken. Please take a look at those invoices again, for example those to Gurikreet Dhillon.
They include initial loans from 2012 through 2013,but the statements after, dated from 2013 through 2018 include both interest payments and additional deposits (additional debetures) to Axis bank in Gurikreet's name.

In addition, from the article posted on the RSSB website and linked in my comment above, you will see the statement that other creditors have taken control over Gurinder's assetts because he failed to make his payments.

Those have nothing to to with Malvinder, nor the independent SEBI and crimes division audits as cited above that resulted in the high Court of India freezing Gurinder's assets and demanding payment of his and families delinquent loans.

I believe these reports. And you do not need to believe them. But let's not ignore what is actually in the page.


Earlier up-thread you were factually and correctly inclusive:

"siphoned loans to Gurinder family and associates.." , "and in 2018 Gurinder family
and associates", "and back to Gurinder and family", "siphoned to Gurinder family
" and associates was much higher", and "move as much money as possible through
shell companies and illegally back to Gurinder and family".
...

And in all those many moments, time after time, decision after decision, Gurinder
demonstrated that he was no better than any of the others, and most certainly
not a Sat Guru.


Then, after that careful litany of Dhillon family sins, it suddenly became the
"witching hour", ie, time to cut to the chase, condemn his fitness for office,
and try to drill into the die-hard's... yep, he's a fake Guru, ya poor lost sheep.

Wow, you personally have insights into GSD masterminding the whole thing?
Did he directly sanction the malfeasance, dragoon his poor hapless family
and surrogates to lie, cheat, steal, participate in coverup's? If you're positive,
it makes him a Devil Guru in my book, fer sure.

Or maybe he just silently noded his head per the standard criminal M.O. of
any mafia boss, ala Sam Giancana of the Gambino Family? Will GSD soon
be doing Sam's cuffed perp walk too? Oh, forget it. I'll just wait for him to
have his day in court.

Was his unfitness for "Guru-ship" your takeaway from one of those "fireside chats"
though? Or was it a deduction on your own based on his "silence" and "obvious
complicity" in crime?. What happened to "He's still my Guru. Pay da man, Dude,
and all will be forgiven"?


It isn't only corrupt Guru's. There are Germans living in Brazil today who love Adolph Hitler and consider him to be God's Chosen, if not God incarnate.

Whew, I'm glad you're being fair here and not naming names of those "corrupt
Guru's". I coulda sworn GSD hadn't been inducted into the "Guru Hall of Shame'
quite yet.

Oh, gosh you're conflating "blind believers and Hitler adorers" with those just
taking a wait and see stance too. Hey, mention of Adolf Hitler's name triggers
Godwin's Law, doesn't it?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin's_law

Hi Dungeness
A wait and see attitude makes no sense after the high Court of India has already ruled that Gurinder, his family and associates are responsible to pay his delinquent loans. And have frozen their assets to assure payment.

You have said repeatedly 'let's wait for the court to make a determination.'

And now that the high court has done so, but not to your liking, you cling to the same 'wait and see' attitude.

Could it be because the high court's judgement is not the decision you had hoped for?

Maybe you thought that Gurinder would be vindicated, and that the court would establish his innocence, placing full responsibility for the fraudulent loans on Malvinder and Shivinder .

The SEBI, the Serious Crimes division and others conducted their audits. The High Court of India made their deliberation. And they have made their judgment.

They vindicated Malvinder and Shivinder for all the money given to Gurinder, family and associates. The High Court of India placed responsibility to pay Daiichi directly on the shoulders of the loan recipients, including Gurinder, family and associates.

It's history. The wait ended June 10th, see?



You have said repeatedly 'let's wait for the court to make a determination.'
And now that the high court has done so, but not to your liking, you cling to the same 'wait and see' attitude

No, not at all, Spence. In fact, a few threads ago, I said the court's
ruling is clear. The Dhillons must pay back the fraudulent loans fully.

What I "cling" to is codified law and at least minimal fairness, to that
cautionary voice that says you haven't heard definitive evidence
of who orchestrated the criminal shell games, or who knew what
and when, or what new evidence will turn up during the court's
adjudication, what'll be ruled exculpatory and what won't, who'll
be charged, who won't, who will cop a plea, what guilty,verdicts
will be rendered, who will be cleared, who may even emerge as
a yet uncharged "guilty bystander"'.

We know the Dhillons are civilly on the hook. But the larger issue now
is criminal culpability. Careful, deliberative, thorough investigation is
needed. Anyone under a cloud deserves that at a minimum. They also
deserve protection from the libelous and the prejudgments of the
uninformed.

Those on the sidelines or in the gallery need to follow a court's evidence
first. That's what's determinative of who's criminally culpable. It's also
germane to who's " fit to be a Guru".

If you stand on soapboxes opining that "Gurinder demonstrated that he
was no better than any of the others, and most certainly not a Sat Guru."
you're declaring that you don't need evidence other that a civil judgment
against his family. That's good enough. Oh, but wait, "there's more... just
open your eyes... look at his lifestyle. He's no Guru, just a greedy, cruel,
heretical fake".

All the truth tellers on the blog' have been sayin' it for years. "Give up your
blind faith. Curse the infidel. You too can join us in the Blog's inner regions
of Bliss. We'll add 'Ji' to your name".

Spence when you start quoting these 2 brothers as if they have factual information I will also tell you that they had a completely different story a few months ago. This was before Sebi had a report on them for fortis and religare. Now they are in deep problems so they are playing the blame game. Obviously their story has changed.

Here is a direct quote from both of
Them
“But they also said it would be “untrue” to suggest that the guru was a cause of their group’s financial troubles. “Malvinder and Shivinder are unequivocal about this: Mr. Dhillon is their spiritual Master,” the brothers wrote. “He has only ever acted out of love and has only ever had their best interests at heart.”

"Attempts to pass the buck to an eminent figure, who has been a guiding light not only to our family but also to a large section of the public, deceives no one," Shivinder wrote

Hi Vijay
The high Court has already passed the buck to Gurinder, family and associates.

I realize that the ruling of the high Court is difficult to accept without question. However, the several audits conducted confirm the picture. The high Court used those audits, which confirmed what Malvinder had claimed.

Gurinder and family knowingly accepted fraudulent loans and haven't repaid them.

And the court is holding them responsible for repayment.

What we do not know is who mastermined this? And with whose cooperation?

Acquaintances who are not Satsangis have already drawn their conclusion. Gurinder is just like all the other corrupt Gurus.

But honestly, what does that matter if Gurinder, family and associates pay their bills, and do as they promised?

That is all that matters.

But if they do not pay their bills, then criminal prosecution is next.

Gurinder's silence reflects very poor legal advice. He himself single handedly is forcing a civil ruling into a criminal court case. And unfortunately there is plenty of evidence to make the case that Sunhil, Malvinder, Shivinder, Gurinder's wife and sons, all Satsangis vowed to obey the Master, acted over several years and multiple schemes under Gurinder's orders.

It isn't necessary to go there if everyone, including Gurinder, pays his delinquent bills. We all want that.

But if he does not, as he has not so far, he will bring a very severe punishment upon himself, which is entirely unnecessary and avoidable.

Baba Ji, please pay your delinquent bills. Just be a good citizen, a good human being.

Vijay, you are correct that Malav and Shivi said this, but this is way before the proverbial shit hit the fan. It was only a few months later that the house came tumbling down and the documentation for the filings came out.

I believe Malvinder was holding out hope that GSD would the right thing and pay back the money. But I guess he was let down and left holding a shit load of debt. Of course Shivinder would side with GSD, he's donated his way onto the gaddi, as Malvinder has suggested. That's why they came to blows because Malvinder let the cat out of the bag, so to speak.

Amar I believe they messed it all up and once later on decided to pin the blame on BBJ.
bBJ would not leave him to bear the brunt of the debt if he had anything to do with it. Just like any parent wouldn’t let his child go through that. There is much more to this you or I are not aware of.

The high court has already decided. The monies Gurinder took are not Malvinder or Shivinder's liability. The delinquency is entirely on Gurinder, his family and associates' shoulders. The court has already ruled. Gurinder, wife and sons are guilty.

They have a debt. Baba Ji, please pay your delinquent bills

Vijay, you're probably right, there is more to this than what has been exposed. But what has been exposed, is what we can discuss. GSD, his family and close satsangi people have had their assets frozen and forced to pay back the debts. There is no story to misconstrue here. The courts have determined they all need to pay back the money.

Why did they have to wait for the courts to tell them that? Do what is right before the courts tell you to. That's the right thing to do.

You said they all messed it up. You're correct, "they" also includes GSD.

Vijay,
GSD is a human being, the same as you and I. He will make various judgement calls in his daily life the same as you and I.
Some of those judgement calls you will agree with and others you will not.

But those are his decisions to make.

I haven’t read the court decision as I am not that interested but my guess is that their objective is to recover funds wherever they are, and if they are with the Dhillon family then naturally they will attempt to recover them from there.

I don’t think it’s a matter of “guilty or not guilty” but more a matter of recover of the money.

There does appear to be a joint effort to syphon funds which necessarily required the brothers and the Dhillon family to both conspire together. That’s a separate matter from the matter of recovery of the funds which is a civil matter

Hi Osho
You wrote
"I don’t think it’s a matter of “guilty or not guilty” but more a matter of recover of the money."

Logically that makes little sense nor does it reflect the high court's order.
The court determined responsibility, and therfore guilt, and on that basis moved guilt away from Malvinder and onto Gurinder and company.

The Singh brothers held the legal responsibility to pay the Daiichi FDA penalty against Ranbaxy. But the high Court transferred that to Gurinder and Company in June.

Malvinder claimed that he and Shivinder had loaned money to Gurinder, family and associates, amounting to more than enough to cover the penalty. At first the high Court in February indicated that they didn't care about the Singh's other business dealings, and held them directly responsible for repayment.

But when Malvinder was unable to pay up he sent an EOW to the high court pleading his case that Gurinder, his wife, sons and associates owed hundreds of millions of dollars in loans and interest and hadn't repaid for years. These were the monies he needed to pay the Daiichi penalty.

Malvinder went further to document his efforts pleading repeatedly in writing with Gurinder to help, but with no response from Gurinder.

Even before Malvinder filed his complaint the SEBI and the Fortis board had conducted separate audits that showed fraudulent loans being siphoned through shell companies.

Business journals had conducted their own audits and found that Gurinder and family were the recipients of nearly a billion dollars in loans through a variety of shell companies. And some of Gurinder's family were involved in the creation and maintenance of the frauds.

All the participants and recipients of the fraudulent loans are Satsangis who pledged vows of loyalty to the Master, in this case Gurinder.

By June various additional detailed and indiependent audits had been conducted by the Serious Crimes Division of the Delhi police, the Securities and Exchange Board of India, and the new board at Religare (who filed their own complaint directly implicating the loan recipients and claiming this was all a big scheme involving several people who had knowingly participated in the construction and execution of several frauds).

Then in June, after much deliberation, the High Court of India rendered a judgment that Gurinder, his family and associates, among others, were directly responsible for repayment of their delinquent loans, in full. The high court, essentially, verified what Malvinder claimed, and placed responsibility, and therefore culpability, directly onto Gurinder et al's shoulders. The high Court further froze Gurinder et al's assets as they were delinquent over several years in payment.

Guilt, culpability and responsibility have already been determined and payment ordered. For the funds Gurinder et al took, Malvinder is no longer responsible to repay that portion of the Daiichi penalty. The full responsibility is now directly upon Gurinder and company's shoulders, by judgment and order of the High Court of India.

Amar you say
“Why did they have to wait for the courts to tell them that? Do what is right before the courts tell you to. That's the right thing to do.”
They did attempt multiple times to do that but Malvinder refused to sign. And then According to shivinder the books had been cleared since 2013.
According to the settlement letter BBJ said that all the properties will be reverted to them and they will take care or paying off the liabilities. My calculated guess is these liabilities is Daichi.
Like I said there’s much we don’t know.

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