Science is our best guide to a possible supernatural reality

Here's another comment from David C. Lane on a recent post of mine that makes so much sense, I'm sharing it even before I've even lunch. Sometimes my hunger for transmitting truth is greater than my stomach's yearning for food. 

Didn't someone  once say, man does not live by bread alone? (or Trader Joe's meatless chick'n tenders).

Lane talks about his Remainder Conjecture in which supernatural claims should only be accepted after a rigorous examination of them through the lens of science.

This fits with David Hume's observation, which I wrote about yesterday, that we have a tremendous amount of evidence for the physical laws of nature, and extremely little evidence for any possible supernatural phenomena.

So any claim, for example, that someone was able to use ESP to predict a future event, or perform a miracle that violated the laws of nature, has to be viewed extremely skeptically absent very convincing evidence that the supernatural event actually occurred.

After all, we humans are mistaken all the time about what happens in our minds. We accept illusions as fact. We conjure up stories that fit with our desires and sense of self. We forget things. We lie to others and sometimes to ourselves.

Science generally wants to know how something happened, though this is less important when accurate predictions can be made about what is happening. For example, the basics of genetic inheritance were understood before DNA was discovered. And quantum physics is marvelously successful without understanding what exactly is going on at the quantum level.

But if someone makes a claim about having experienced a supernatural phenomenon, we need to ask how that happened. What in the human brain is able to contact a supposed supernatural realm? Of if that capacity isn't in the brain, then where is it? In an immaterial soul? OK, if that's hypothesized, then where is the evidence for soul?

Below Lane's comment I've shared an excerpt from an essay he shared in another recent comment, "The Virtual Reality of Consciousness." The basic message of the essay is that our consciousness doesn't reflect reality as it is, but as our mind makes it out to be. 

Enjoy. I really like Lane's contention that those who view paranormal phenomena as being real should welcome each and every explanation for those phenomena that utilizes the normal.

Spence,

The movie the "remainder conjecture" is to actually open up a blind spot, not hide one.

For instance, if we exhaust physical explanations first (for instance, trying to understand the neural correlate theory of consciousness) and we find after intensive and comprehensive research that it is insufficient to the task, then it opens up a window, what I call a "remainder", which gives us suggestive indications that something ELSE is needed beyond the physical parameters we explored.

So, ironically, those most in favor of the paranormal should be at the forefront of exhausting each and every explanation that utilizes the normal.

This in itself doesn't discount the supernatural in the least, but means that we won't be duped into confusing a purely physical event for a psychic one, which has too often happened in the past.

Science actually starts with ignorance since it doesn't assume (theologically or prematurely) to have any absolute answers and thus from this state then proposes guesses and models and then tests those to see which one best fits the situation and which one provides the greatest predictive value.

Therefore, science is always doubting, always questioning, and in so doing has been wonderfully progressive in terms of understanding that which before was misunderstood.

Also, what used to be seen as magical or mysterious or produced by a god, has often turned out to be generated by physical means. The sun and nuclear fusion (see Hans Bethe for more) is a good illustration of this.

Same with the idea of gravity. Einstein's general theory of relativity made predictions that could be tested.

However, some things like "gravitational waves" were so subtle that it took a 100 years for us to detect them, which was a great breakthrough that just came to light.

The same, of course, with the subatomic physics when physicists knew that there was a missing piece in the Standard Model..... In the early 1960s they theorized a missing Boson, later found and called (after one of its more well known theorizers) the "Higgs Boson."

The Nobel prize in physics was awarded for this breakthrough, though it took decades for the proof needed to verify it.

My point is a simple one. The more patient we are in science to look for physical causes first the better off we will be, since in that pursuit we won't be duped into magical and transcendental temptations too early.

I don't think it is at all absurd to try to find an explanation for all that we can. Indeed, that is why science is science, since it doesn't simply quit but rather chugs onwards..... and in so doing the most remarkable things can happen.

Often people forget that in the early 20th century there were many that felt that the secret of genetics would never be found and instead opted for Elan Vital..... thankfully, biologists and chemists such as Linus Pauling, Rosalind Franklin, Francis Crick, Maurice Wilkings, and James Watson were not deterred in looking for physical causations.

Indeed, they were influenced by Erwin Schrodinger's book, WHAT IS LIFE, which argued for looking for a physical medium by which information (genetic and otherwise) could be universally transmitted.

And, lo and behold, the double helix structure of DNA was discovered in 1953..... and it has radically changed our understanding of how life works.

So, again, let us pursue the Wilsonian idea of Consilient reductionism first..... and if that exhausts itself and there remains a "remainder"..... then we have something to build upon.

Or as Blaise Pascal said (or was attributed in saying), which I think goes to the heart of how science proceeds:

little faith, little doubt
great faith, great doubt

and

infinite faith, infinite doubt.

Here's the video Lane made about the Remainder Conjecture.

And here's the excerpt from Lane's essay, "The Virtual Reality of Consciousness." 

Yet, there is a downside in possessing a higher form of consciousness since it allows its owner to ponder all sorts of improbable events that will never actually happen.

We too often can get ensnared with our ideas, our fantasies, our projections and begin believing all sorts of nonsense. For a robust virtual simulator to work it must conjure up a plethora of scenarios that mix and match incongruent narratives.

In other words, for imagination to work it must be massively elastic. The glitch is that sometimes our simulations over take us and we get entrapped within their corridors.

To the degree that we can test our imaginings in the empirical world and acknowledge their successes and failures we are regarded as somewhat sane; to the degree that we cannot we may be viewed as somewhat insane. It is a thin line indeed that separates the two.

Comments

[George Porgy]

What do you mean the mind doesn’t reflect reality as it is?

I can tell you for certain if it didn’t, you wouldn’t be having meatless jo’s Tenders for lunch cos a car would run you over as you crossed the road to get your chicken.

It captures the bit of reality we inhabit perfectly, unless you piss-drunk or taking a lot of pills you should’nt be. If it didn’t, you and your grandpappy wouldn’t have survived long enough for you to be contemplating the thoughts of faker.

[Brian Hines]

George Porgy, you obviously don't know much about modern neuroscience and psychology, because your comment is untrue.

Yes, by and large we navigate reality pretty well in everyday life. But it is a plain fact that people forget important things; they overlook important things (gorilla walking through basketball court experiment; they remember things that never happened; they lie, fantasize, fall prey to illusions and delusions.

Today our local newspaper reported that several people from Salem, where I live, testified to a legislative committee that the Holocaust never happened. Is that seeing reality as it is? Obviously not. Does Donald Trump see reality as it is? Obviously not.

[George Porgy]

Well if neuroscience disagrees with the obvious, the natural conclusion is it must be talking out it’s butthole. Ockam’s razor, didn’t they teach you anything at system science?

Brian I’m concerned for your mental health / going from one guru to the next, the present one seems to be the worship of your missus new pseudo-science. That is not science, it’s nonsense, we know nada nothing about the mind.

I mean look at Dr Phil, the man is quite obviously an idiot - he gives ppl more neuroses. It’s criminal that these ppl are given the term, doctors.

[Jesse]

Brian the holocaust, at least the very specific numbers of people and methods or ways in which they died, probably never happened. You can watch hours of those fake Spielberg interviews if you ever want a good laugh.

I'd have to agree with the skeptics on that. The evidence simply doesn't add up and is most definitely war propaganda like thousands of other events throughout history where 1000 people turn into millions. World War Two alone has dozens of competing propaganda theories though only the holocaust remains.

Plus you generally don't send people to jail for investigating events if there's so much evidence that it's true. And I say this as a part Jew whose family left Russia because it was a good chance to escape pogroms.

Another funny little thing that should be mentioned here is that Watson was basically unpersoned by the same evil propaganda machine that pushes the holocaust. The guy discovers DNA but because he spoke of the implications of heritability and intelligence his career and reputation were savagely destroyed.

You're not allowed to investigate real things. That's the rule.

Kal Yug baby. Science won't even exist in 20 years. We'll all be forced to be transgender blobs thanks to baby boomer hippies and the monster society they created.

[Anon]

Dear George,

This article explains the neuroscience of illusions ....

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/the-neuroscience-of-illusion-2010-05/

[Sonya]

I’m pretty sure the Holocaust happened as horrifically as all the survivors described. That said, where has my unicorn 🦄 gone?

Dear Mr. Lane,

All this sciencey stuff is starting to depress me. Why can’t we stay children forever? What’s the fun of being a grown up? Grown men do crazy things like trying to create a pure Arian race or whatever that “propaganda” thing was all about. Science is cold. The intellect is dry. Imagination is fun. I think that’s why “escapism” in whatever form is so prevalent among both humans and animals. In the form of drugs, alcohol, religion, sex, hobbies... whatever. It’s like, most people want more “magic” in their day to day lives. Maybe that’s why we spend 30% of our lives sleeping—so that we can dream.

That was just food for thought... :)

[Georgy Porgy]

Forget the gorilla on the court, you’re missing the elephant in the room.

You guys pick away at the edges of reality when most of it is common sense, not extra sensory.

You deny the subjective experience of others and yet come up with the most crackpot conspiracy theories, as if you are in the know. Holocaust deniers, the moon landings didn’t happen, a gorilla wasnt noticed, an alien probed me ass, etc its all just bullshit.

I don’t need neuroscience explained to me. I can read the books. It’s scratching the surface of something we know virtually nothing about. 100 years ago we knew nothing - now all of a sudden we got it all sewn up after billions of years of knowing nothing.

You got no sense of perspective - in 100 years time they will consider most of our doctors butchers, our scientists as a product of their time and our psychologists as witch-doctors of the highest order.

[Jesse]

Sonya, I guarantee you have never done 1 second of research on the subject so you probably shouldn't opine, but do tell me were the "masturbation machines" that supposedly wanked people to death, or the "roller coaster" that supposedly went high speed down a hill and flung people into fire real? Because they're documented as being real.

Normal Finkelstein, another Jewish man who had many family members who died in some camp in WW2, also asks routinely about what you've just said. If it was so horrific and everyone was killed, then why are there so many survivors, and why are so many of those survivors so adamant on pushing for wars all over the world? Is that the natural response of someone who truly suffered? To desire war and death everywhere like the neocons do?

You don't get the same thing happening with Khmer Rouge survivors because they didn't survive. They were slaughtered, and it changed them and their culture dramatically. Does Cambodia seem to be pushing for world war 3 to bring about a messiah? Doesn't look that way to me.

You can rail on about religion but you believe in one of the most obvious religious tales of our time because it would actually cost you something to question it. You can lose your job and your reputation, possibly have your kids taken away for saying what I'm saying or even asking questions about it.

Questioning whether or not some dork in India can really levitate costs you nothing and finding out that he can't levitate gains nothing for anyone. No Palestinian children will be spared bullets to the face because Sri Guru Sahib is found not to have magical powers. It's as valuable as disproving santa claus.

[anami]

Wake up, people. Transgender hippie blob monsters are REAL.

[Georgy Porgy]

That must be some of the funniest shit I’ve ever read. You lot are all cuckoo batshit crazy. If this is the place where objective rational thinking resides, we’re up the creek without a paddle. We got one here explaining neuroscience to me, while another is talking about wanking machines and Norman finkekstein - gdam lunatics. The inmates have escaped from the asylum.

[J]

Still telling us that his rigorous examination of sant mat through the teachings of Faqir Chand has led him to concur with that guru that sant mat is a lie, or at best a jumping through hoops that will likely only end in the nihilistic fate of unconsciousness or dreams. And yet, still going to RSSB satsangs and deras to imbibe the sweet nectar of guru remembrance.

We criticize gurus for having two faces. But what about the scholars of sant mat, whose purportedly objective theses on this religion sell the view that the smart move is to quit the path, while they are still steadfast satsangis?

What's needed is a truly integral view of sant mat, that is, one that doesn't always lean toward nihilism, one that credits sant mat for the very obvious positive elements that impact society and our lives? The nihilist conclusion is way too easy. The old theses need to be reworked so that they cogently explain why the scholar, despite all his criticisms and dismal conclusions, obviously still finds value in the full practice of sant mat.

Just as one can't eat lamb chops and then write about the glories of veganism, a scholar can't just tell us an entire religion is a fraud while he lives his life to the precise teachings of that religion. Obviously, he sees something (and likely someone) of immense value and truth in that religion. The old "it's just a human thing" is a tiresome non-answer.

Revising the old theses necessarily means admitting they were less than correct. But isn't that what Chand did? If Chand is to be congratulated for his honesty and bravery for overturning his old ideas, then why still hang on to the scholarly treatments of sant mat that clearly don't match your actual views?

[Anon]

J who are you referring to as the scholar? Brian or David? Or someone else?

[Tim Rimmer]

J - well said. I’ve also been wondering about this on-going dialogue particularly between David and Spencer. I continue to be amazed at how much Spencer can actually write, generally presenting his view quite clearly.
I also enjoy David’s writings and approach, like you say J, he has spent a lot of time dissecting Sant Mat and certainly pointing out the limitations produced if one adheres to the dogma only. Yet as I said in my post the other day what then is Faqir’s (with a Q) true take on Sant Mat if most of it is missing the mark so to speak? Based on what David writes here, It seems to me Chand’s realisations were (if one were to label them) a mix of Buddhist, advaitic and shabd as he neared his death. Please correct me David if I misunderstand, but my interpretation is that FC experienced ‘nothing’ness as saar shabd and this brought him peace. This kind of makes sense to me. I know this is a very limited take on something hard to describe - best I can do.

David, what method/approach do you follow now? If it is Surat Shabd Yoga, you must still believe it will eventually (or already has?) lead you to the same realisation as FC?
What did FC say/advise to any sincere truth seekers in his final years? This is of great interest to me, as at present I don’t really follow any method (as many seem limiting i.e. very A to B). However I have not given up on ‘soul’ and still believe there are ways and means that help us in our search for truth and the peace Faqir Chand ‘became’ on his death.

Look forward to your reply.

[David Lane]

Hi Tim,

You raise an important issue here and one that goes to the heart of Faqir Chand's philosophy.

Yes, what you say about Faqir Chand's ultimate realization (or his final approach to it perhaps?) was that seeing inner light and listening to inner sounds got him to a very high place indeed.... and it was
mesmerizing and intoxicating, but it didn't give him peace or a sense of resolution.

Thus, in this regard, he used to pester his own guru, Shiv Brat Lal. As Faqir recalled,

"Long ago I used to pester Hazur Data Dayal Ji. One day after feeling greatly disturbed, His Holiness asked me to accompany him to Agra so that he might offer me to the Memorial Samadh
of His Guru, Rai Saligram (in Peepal Mandi). I agreed. We reached the railway station and purchased tickets for Agra. Again Data Dayal said, "I shall be free from you after offering
you at the feet of Hazur Maharaj (Rai Saligram)." "Will you not bring me back?"' I humbly inquired from my guru. "No," responded His Holiness. Then I said, "I shall not go to Agra and will not leave you." We went to the hermitage after returning the tickets. In tne ashram of my Guru my preceptor said to me, "Faqir, I went to the Durbar of Hazur Maharaj only three times in my life and understood the Truth. I do not know why you are not understanding?" I again humbly inquired, "How did Hazur
Maharaj make you understand?" My Guru replied, "I had questioned Hazur Maharaj how this world was created." My Guru asked me to look attentively at him. I obeyed. His Holiness opened his mouth and closed it and said, "This is the creation." At the time of the narration of this incident by Data Dayal Ji I could not understand it. But today I understand. "Lips open and closed Tis the secret of life." Now I understand that all the lower centers (or inner regions from Sahans dal Kanwal to Bhanwar Gupha) are not the Reality. It is all phantasmagorias. How did my delusion perish? First, this realization that I do not manifest anywhere removed the darkness of my mind. Second, when I ascend to the state of Light and Sound I try to search out the object which sees the Light and listens to the Sound. But I fail to find its end. It is infinite."

Additionally, Faqir would lose all notions of self, of guru, of god.... As he recollects,

"The feelings of the existence of self-power have ended and even the thought of liberation and bondage has disappeared. Now mine is quite an old age. I am sure to leave this mortal
world sooner or later. But where shall I go? I have understood that if I could remember Him, the Unnamed, the Formlessness and the Profound I shall merge in Him losing my own entity.But if I remained attached to the worldly cravings or this gurudom, then I cannot say what would be my end. Now I proceed to the immortal abode, breaking chains of all-- body, mind and thought. Follow those who desire our path of hanging on the gallows. To reach that immortal Abode one has to dispel all worldly longing, thoughts, desires and attachments. Now what is meant by hanging on the gallows in Sant Mat? When someone is punished to death by hanging a rope is put around his neck from the gallows. The wooden plank is removed from beneath his feet
and he is suspended in the air with only rope around his neck that throttles him to death. The accused gets no support whatsoever to his body except the rope of the gallows. Likewise,
in Sant Mat, His Abode is the gallows. Surat or Self is to be hanged to it with simran, dhyan and bhajan (spiritual sadhana, interior meditation) and later to be suspended without any support
of desire, longing, or even that of simran, dhyan and bhajan, except with the string of love. This is what I understand from the word gallows. O’ Faqir these satsangis have taught you the method of
hanging at the gallows. Only this experience of the manifestation of my fonn at different places, of which I am never aware, has changed my life. . . My experiences prove that Yogi, Meditator,
Guru, Disciple and even the aspirant of salvation are in bondage."

In one of Faqir Chand's last letters to me, he advised this (and I quote it here exactly):

"Try to penetrate within yourself. Leave physical senses by repeating Holy Name given to you by your Guru without moving your tongue. Meditate on image of your Guru but if one thinks that his guru is a man, he cannot go above the mind. Concentrate on image is necessary for leaving the
mental vibrations. Then comes light and Sound. Try to know what is that sees light within or listens Sounds within. That is THOU alone. Then one can realize who is HE: his search ends and becomes the same reality, My love . . . . ."

As for myself, I love doing shabd yoga and I meditate more now than ever before. However, I don't do it out of duty or thinking I am going to get liberated. Rather, I just enjoy the privilege of being able to sit quietly for a few hours a day and focusing the mind. Of course, maybe this happens when one has two boys!!!!

But more seriously, I do think that losing one's identity, one's self-contraction, like what the Tibetan Book of the Dead suggests, is altogether refreshing...

I often tell my philosophy students that the best case scenario is that when we die, there is NOTHING after. Lights out. Switch turned off.

Socrates (in the mouthpiece of Plato), of course, said the same thing, since each of us seem to relish a deep sleep where we lose ourselves and all is forgotten.

Consciousness is what is scary, not its absence. So, the most frightening thing would be to have consciousness survive death.... floating around in some astral plane away from those we love...

But we are on a journey and what will unfold is still before us.... and thus I told Dodie Bellamy in an interview that I am "agnostic-mystical-materialist" which can be translated either as "I am really stupid" or "geez, I am CON . . . FUSED!"

I am happy in that unknowingness and meditating today without expectations and just enjoying the bliss of the ride is liberating in itself.

Hope this helps a bit.

[Anon]

David
I think when all is said and done the most important thing is the practice. Whether it’s done out of duty, love, liberation or it just feels good, the fact is it’s done and that’s what matters. IMO.
Happy meditations everyone

[Jen]

"Consciousness is what is scary, not its absence. So, the most frightening thing would be to have consciousness survive death.... floating around in some astral plane away from those we love..."

So there is no soul, or spirit and not even consciousness that survives death. Absence of consciousness after death is very scary, for me. That nothing survives, no-one evolves, no inner planes to explore, there is no reincarnation, just emptiness. Forever. Done and dusted. Now I'm really depressed. No point in living the best we can with nothing to look forward to. Thanks heaps... not.

[Jesse]

David Lane, you probably never saw my other question or I didn't see your response, but can you tell which specific words of Chand were being translated into English as miracle, powers, magic etc? I'm curious about it.

[Jen]

This kind of belief gives me courage to continue in life and existence thereafter...

9 levels of consciousness
Buddhism teaches that there are 9 levels of Consciousness. The teaching offers a means of understanding of human awareness and how we are connected to the world and the wider universe. The theory has come about from 2500 years of study and investigation into the nature of our inner selves and the endless cycle of birth, life and death.

http://operationmeditation.com/discover/levels-of-consciousness-a-buddhist-perspective/

[Sonya]

@Jesse,

Sorry I ruffled your feathers, I’m just not that big on conspiracy theories although I acknowledge conspiracies do take place from time to time. I’m a creative writer so I don’t always respond using the same logic. I like to swoop in from a completely different angle... just for fun. Logic gets a little boring at times so have to mix it up. lol

@Georgy Orgy,
You know you’re a bit of a dick, right??

[Sonya]

So many words, so many sentences, paragraphs, pages, books... libraries. “The largest metaphysical library in the world”. Yet I’m going to burn all the books! I’m going to burn the Word until all we are left with is Sound...

[Dungeness]

So there is no soul, or spirit and not even consciousness that survives death. Absence of consciousness after death is very scary, for me. That nothing survives, no-one evolves, no inner planes to explore, there is no reincarnation, just emptiness. Forever. Done and dusted. Now I'm really depressed. No point in living the best we can with nothing to look forward to. Thanks heaps... not.

Hi Jen,

Cheer up... once you get used to "hangin' on the gallows", I'm sure it's "da bomb".

But, descriptively, to me anyway, it sounds as if consciousness does survive, just
without all the sharp, jagged edges of duality:

:: Surat or Self is to be hanged to it with simran, dhyan and bhajan (spiritual
:: sadhana, interior meditation) and later to be suspended without any support
:: of desire, longing, or even that of simran, dhyan and bhajan, except with the
:: string of love

So, you're still conscious... alive and kickin' and held firmly by "the string of love".
You've gone so far you've transcended grasshopper status with its simran, dhyan,
and bhajan. [ If I may be so bold as to mention Ishwar Puri, I'd say that state is
like Ishwar's "Totality of Consciousness" or a reasonable facsimile thereof ].

Hey, you're found a way to cheat the hangman. You're strung up in Love.
Now does that sound so bad...

[Jesse]

Sonya you didn't ruffle any feathers and I'm not talking about a "conspiracy theory." I'm talking about the nature of man and his endless cycle of being duped by people with bad intentions who have no problem telling lies to get what they want.

Currently we're being led to believe (duped) that Iranians are hell bent on taking over the world and that we must encircle their country with aircraft carriers and other armaments to preemptively kill them all because Mossad gave John Bolton some vague "intelligence." If we get into this war, it'll almost certainly come out after Iran has been ground to dust that we used some sort of story similar to the incubator babies that got USA into the 1st Iraq war.

If you don't know about the Kuwaiti chick who told the incubator babies story, I suggest you read it. And if we can be duped into killing millions of people over such a fake story, surely being a baba is easy business. Humans will believe anything with no evidence at all.

It's like living in the book of Esther every day.

"falsehood is a recognized and extremely useful weapon in warfare, and every country uses it quite deliberately to deceive its own people, attract neutrals, and to mislead the enemy." Harold Lasswell saw it as a handy rule for arousing hate, and that "if at first they do not enrage, use an atrocity. It has been employed with unvarying success in every conflict known to man."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atrocity_propaganda

[Georgy Porgy]

Sonya - How so?

Perhaps people that think GSD is a good guy, who doesn’t deserve pot shots being taken at him, think you are a bit of a dick.

But this is a classic - we got holocaust deniers and conspiracy theorists setting us to rights on fake gurus - please keep the comedy flowing. Outstanding.

[David Lane]

Dear Jesse,

I was quoting from Faqir's English books, so don't know the exact Urdu or Hind that words such as miracles or magic first appeared in his satsangs.

Here is a link to the Hindi books that may have them embedded.
http://www.manavtamandir.com/hindi-books.php

[Sonya]

Georgy Porgy,

I’m not a Holocaust denier.

Yeah, you’re right—I am a bit of a dick when it comes to Gurinder. But I’m also over that. So, trying not to take “cheap shots” at him anymore. There are are a lot bigger things to worry about...

90% of the time I’m in a half sarcastic, half playful mood. But today, feeling neither... there are bigger problems in the world...

[Jen from Austin Texas]

Sonya I saw you today in MP

[Sonya]

Hi Jesse,

I totally agree with your last comment. In war and with the Military there often is another, higher agenda but the war machine has to “sell it” to the public...

[Sonya]

Hi JenfA,

Really? I’m still in Seattle but must admit I look
like a lot of MPers. I’m pretty generic looking.

Maybe I projected myself there (anything is possible). :)

Sorry I missed you. Not sure if I’m going to fly there this week after all. And turns out we’re moving our HQ to Atlanta so I’ll be moving back there sometime in the near future. It’s an OK place to live. Not my first choice but it’s fine.

In the meantime, if you’re ever in Atlanta let me know...

I haven’t checked that email yet—always forget to since I don’t use it for anything else.

[Georgy Porgy]

The world’s still spinning - what’s the problem?

[Tim Rimmer]

Hi David

Thanks very much for your reply. Appreciate the FC story you shared, reminded me of the classic old school Sant Mat that’s all about Bhakti and those cool interactions between Masters/devotees.

I think the ‘Hanging on the Gallows’ is a state coming for all of us - a bit ‘Dark Night of the Soul’ish. We piss about trying to get somewhere for years/decades and arrive kind of back where we started, perhaps with some wisdom that ‘It’s not what we think it is’ and ‘We’re not what/who we think we are’ - just have to give it all up and be stripped bare hanging by a thread.

Not everybody’s cup of tea and seemingly somewhat Mystically Masochistic!. I think the soul is what helps to keep us together during this process as, the self becomes Self. That’s my take on it at present. Like what you said Dungeness - the ‘totality of consciousness’ is a good description. Hi Jen :-)

Best wishes, some great reading and info to access on this blog!

[Spence Tepper]

Hi Jen
You wrote
"So there is no soul, or spirit and not even consciousness that survives death. Absence of consciousness after death is very scary, for me. That nothing survives, no-one evolves, no inner planes to explore, there is no reincarnation, just emptiness. Forever. Done and dusted. Now I'm really depressed. No point in living the best we can with nothing to look forward to. Thanks heaps... not."

Perhaps another take on this might help. When you die, and in meditation, either Mindfulness or Sant Mat, or any form of focused devotion, one loses the sense of self. One gains a larger sense. Losing everything you know, even opinions, there is a greater experience. Then you become nothing, and even anxious to become nothing as often as possible.

The less traffic enters your brain, the larger the expanse you become aware of. And that becomes pleasant, then blissful, then ecstatic.

At each step you lose a layer of conscious thought, and gain a layer of awareness. The joy of entering that cosmic Cathedral is amazing. And it is only there that we really realize the terrible weight we had carried. Flying upon that divine bark, the Triton's horn, we sail upward, from this multi - shelled existence happily leaving the old behind.

The Chambered Nautilus

This is the ship of pearl, which, poets feign,
Sails the unshadowed main,—
The venturous bark that flings
On the sweet summer wind its purpled wings
In gulfs enchanted, where the Siren sings,
And coral reefs lie bare,
Where the cold sea-maids rise to sun their streaming hair.

Its webs of living gauze no more unfurl;
Wrecked is the ship of pearl!
And every chambered cell,
Where its dim dreaming life was wont to dwell,
As the frail tenant shaped his growing shell,
Before thee lies revealed,—
Its irised ceiling rent, its sunless crypt unsealed!

Year after year beheld the silent toil
That spread his lustrous coil;
Still, as the spiral grew,
He left the past year’s dwelling for the new,
Stole with soft step its shining archway through,
Built up its idle door,
Stretched in his last-found home, and knew the old no more.

Thanks for the heavenly message brought by thee,
Child of the wandering sea,
Cast from her lap, forlorn!
From thy dead lips a clearer note is born
Than ever Triton blew from wreathèd horn!
While on mine ear it rings,
Through the deep caves of thought I hear a voice that sings:—

Build thee more stately mansions, O my soul,
As the swift seasons roll!
Leave thy low-vaulted past!
Let each new temple, nobler than the last,
Shut thee from heaven with a dome more vast,
Till thou at length art free,
Leaving thine outgrown shell by life’s unresting sea!"

Oliver Wendell Holmes
Chief Justice of the United States Supreme Court

[Jen from Austin Texas]

Hi Sonya yes someone that may look like you then. Or your right maybe you projected as my mind has been thinking about you and this blog. Like FC you didn’t have an idea I saw you. Haha the power we have.love it. 😊

[Sonya]

Georgy Porgy,

Is that your way of trying to cheer me up? Lol

Well, I’m visiting with long time friends in Seattle where I used to live. One of them I haven’t seen in 6 years. Since then he’s had a child—his girlfriend got pregnant when they took their first trip to India. Anyway, the child is a 4 year old little girl with a developmental issue. Not sure exactly what it is... her pictures look sweet. They dropped by here really early this morning and I didn’t have chance to see his daughter. Was just really sad I didn’t get to meet her. The father is in a very similar situation my husband was in at the around same age (early thirties, 4 year old daughter, going through a breakup and difficult custody situation). But mainly I was just sad I missed seeing her. Can’t explain it but a lot of times I’m able to help children.

Maybe I’ll buy her a gift for the dad to give to her before I leave. 🤔 There’s a really cute unicorn stuffed animal that our mutual friend keeps here for the little girl.

I believe love is an actual power. It would be what I would call God I guess. This invisible power that keeps all of our atoms held together... keeps the world spinning. In my unscientific space, love is “magic”.

[Jen from Austin Texas]

Georgy Porgy
Haha what a name. Your actually surprised at the weirdness of this all? It’s run by an atheist who says Baba Faqir Chand is his type of Guru.
What do you expect when you come here?

[Sonya]

I think Brian is super cool but I believe in “supernatural” stuff. Maybe science has an explanation for it. Anyway, it’s nice that Brian allows us to post our differing views. I think the average human is constantly evolving or changing in one form or another. I always wanted to have kids of my own but didn’t by choice because of all the meds I was taking at one time. It would have been careless and reckless of me. However, now that I have my nieces 50% of the year, I realize that’s MORE THAN ENOUGH. lol 😂

When you only see the positive in someone because of your intense love for them... it changes things.

[Amar]

Hi all. Great discussions here on this blog.

Question for those who meditate and follow a living guru, meditate without a guru at all, and for those who used to meditate as per a guru's instructions but no longer follow the guru, but continue to meditate.

What is it that drives you to do the meditation? What is the expectation for those who meditate without a guru? If any?

Do you do it for the peace of mind, for the experiences of light and sound? David Lane continues to meditate, but what drives you David? Is it for the calming effects, peacefulness...?

Do you still anticipate the outcomes RSSB continues to expound, as far as the "after life" etc?

Just curious what the mind set is for you all.

Thank you in advance.

[Jesse]

"What is it that drives you to do the meditation? What is the expectation for those who meditate without a guru? If any?"

I used to want salvation. The prospect of an afterlife is potentially scary as hell and the promise of a somewhat familiar man who I "knew" coming to save me and taking me to heaven sounded pretty great. This is obviously stupid as hell, but that's what I thought I wanted.

Now I don't really meditate, but I do mantras without a guru, and I do it for unknown and/or inconsistent reasons. Sometimes I think I want more money without adding value so I beg a deity for it, but I usually find that distasteful and stop. Sometimes I have the same fear of the afterlife and I recite a mantra or do prayers hoping to appease any being out there that has the power to roast my soul in the most hottest of fires for eternity or other extremely long periods of time. This might be equally distasteful, but at least it's not so obviously greedy and dirty.

But in all honesty, I don't know my own motivations and wouldn't trust anyone who claims to know their own motivations or intentions either. If your brain is moving that slowly and you can trick yourself into thinking you have self knowledge, you're either a much better person than I or a dumb lump of trash. In either case we wouldn't get along.

[Jesse]

"I think Brian is super cool but I believe in “supernatural” stuff."

Me, too, Sonya. Brian is cool and I also believe in supernatural stuff. But I have no reason to believe in it. Every example I can think of from ufo's to autobiography of a yogi to Jesus' face on a waffle... all of it is absurd and embarrassing to even consider. Yet I still believe in something for no discernible reason whatsoever other than what comes from those questions we all ask as 8 year old children looking at the stars. "What the fuck is out there man? This shit is crazy." At least that's how me and my little ratchet friends spoke as kids.

[Meditator]

Mr Brian.
You are using best of the brains and latest evolution in sciences to define non-matter , our consciousness' embedded in different shapes of body bags and respective slots of intelligence fitted into cranial nerves of each category of creature on earth.

In so doing most of us take for granted
That it is basically the power of brains that actually makes us go through a universe tour- a hypothetical artistic creation of brain itself to smell every tiny radiance of inside during meditative flight as per perfectly perfect science for the consciousness to behold as an imagination who anyways is an undoubting plain observer- who unfortunately has now to believe between the two - matter - ial science i.e. brains or Spirituality- the non matter- the consciousness.

Anyways some of the poor selves amongst us - the observers in these bodies are now being grinded between scientific physical brain theories against spirituality acclaimed principles and Truths( endorsed by Spiritual scientists except FC).

Anyways wish you good luck in defining the un-defineable the pure consciousness, the mystery I may say and for others it will simply be a dead non matter after a while at the final ends of our bodies. Anyways for those whose consciousness take a flight regularly may define it else way and may not match with the scientific explanations of activities of brains.

Yet even if it is claimed and reinforced that brains have the ability to overpower consciousness and see/observe what it wants still consciousness , our exact self actually thinking and moving etc will remain undefined within the ambit of physical sciences and even extrapolated analysis.
Regards.

[Georgy Porgy]

Sonya

Your way, love, is the best. It’s when you see kids with problems that reality hits home, as to how insignificant other issues are. But I think a lot of those kids with development issues tend to actually be very happy and often blissfully unaware.

Jen from Austin

Yep super strange - I enter the twilight zone when reading this website.

[Mike England]

Brian is Cool. 😎
He searches low and high for the Truth
Using his awesome Zen powered snow globe, he will deliver revelations of the highest order.
Many times my head has been turned by his profound ness.

Loving this endlessly

Dr Eugene Genetics
Revelations of Revenue
Revenge the Renegades