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May 20, 2019

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Haha funny how your name has changed.😊 I have nothing to hide, please believe whatever you want.

Deqr Anon
It may be true that you have nothing to hide. However, if it is true then there would be no problem in writing exactly what you heard in Singapore.

Nothing to hide means that you are open and ready to disclose information. Refusing to disclose the information means that there has to be something to hide. This is especially true on here because nobody knows who you are except for you. So you cannot possibly get into trouble. If you want to follow RSSB rules exactly then its already a bit late because you are not supposed to even be looking at churchless sites. certainly you must not comment for sure.

So you do have something to hide if you cannot just write exactly what you heard in Singapore. The question is why are you refusing to be open and write on here exactly what you heard. Is there a reason for the secrecy? If so, please give the reason or be honest and say that was sleeping in the satsang or your mind was somewhere else. why can't you be honest? That is not being open and it means you do have something to hide. People with nothing to hide will say what they heard.
If there is an inaccurate version on here then unless you write the accurate one it is no use saying it is inaccurate.

Hello.
Satsangi for 44 years now and doing my best to try and develop awareness.
All this about GSD is not going to make anyone grow.
This is an individual path and each soul has to grow its own way.
We should not be in judgment of GSD or any other guru or sinner..all these things about important come into our awareness to test our ability to continue our meditation and personal conduct in life to the best of our ability. What GSD does or does not do or changes his ways from what one feels should be his behaviour has nothing to do with yours or my behaviour. We are solely responsible for our own thoughts and behaviours and what this person does should not be a place of judgement at all as we are all struggling souls on some path and wasting time trying to gauge what he did or is doing becomes merely a shallow excuse for us to succomb to the depressing side of the spiritual path. We do not know where in spirituality anyone else is and we are not helping ourselves to gain more enlightenment by spending eons of time trying to figure out what is or is not happening with GSD...get on with self discovery and look at ones own foibles and continue climbing the mountain...the true MASTER is WITHIN.

Yes, Gurinder is innocent, I agree. However, has it not dawned upon you that Anon is Gurinder?

My dear sweet dog, Marshall, a 125 lb Rottweiler is looking at me as if to say, “what could be so important on that device you have in your hand?” Puts things in perspective...

Everywhere you go, there you are. Know that you are wasting your time, you are wasting your time. Ommmmm

Why aren't the singh brothers in jail yet?

Dears,

It's not wasting my time to talk and discuss about the path I walked for over 50 years..
Its is good to digest, get insights in others also and from that.. seeing inside also in myself.
It really is helpfull
So one can sweep things away..
Of course being in the here and now..
In here and now I am digesting my life and ''my path'',now and then importantly.
Because the RS path had a great deal of impact on my life..
Very beautiful and sweet and learning etc..
Also with fears intens loneliness because nobody understood my problems and fears.
Also intens pangs of separation I had to undergo,missing Maharaji too much..
Sort of terrible ''homesickness''is what I had..
So yes talking and communicating is important at least for some.
My whole fam is/was satsangi's here in the west..even with them I could not talk about
fears and doubds and insights I had.
So for some talking and digesting is very fine.

Some people are trying to get somewhere, and so consider this blog a waste. Of course the obvious question to them is, why even comment on here? Just do your meditation and continue with your faith. Commenting on here is counter productive for those people, because nothing you write will convince or convert anyone.
For the ex-ers its a healthy venting exercise and they can express their real feelings and perhaps discover something about themselves

“Yes, Gurinder is innocent, I agree. However, has it not dawned upon you that Anon is Gurinder?”

Sonya that’s the Best compliment ever ❤️

Dear Sonya
I thought Gurinder is innocent was Gurinder, not Anon. Holy Shit 😱

For once I agree with and find no reason to taunt or instigate any sort of frictional interaction with Osho Robbins.

Satsangis should be doing satsangi things and leave those of us who've left alone to complain and vent as we please. You're not doing yourself or your guru any favors by getting into disputes with us. Plus, you're all likely gonna go crazy and start riots in the next year or two in Delhi and Punjab and you need to prepare for getting slapped across your ribs with a lathi by police before sitting in Tihar jail for a couple weeks.

Anon is quite right. And it's a bit ridiculous for others to demand answers from him on what Gurinder had to say.

If this matter is truly important to you, then go to the source. Go to Petaluma yourself this Summer and demand answers directly. If you're not willing to do that, then you have no business demanding that satsangis do your sangat justice warrior work for you.

J, it was Anon who raised the issue of what Gurinder said in Singapore, not any of us RSSB skeptics. Blame her for lying, since she keeps claiming that the report I shared of what Gurinder said is wrong. But like religious believers everywhere, she is unable to back up her claim with even the flimsiest of evidence. Score: Skeptics 100; Believers 0. We win!

Anon, you need to tell everyone what you heard, as you are claiming it to be wrong. Even I have received that forward on Whatsapp from a verified source. You can't just say the statements are wrong until you back it with the right ones. Grow up.

I don’t see any evidence from anyone on any side, full stop.

All I see is a lot 2nd hand hearsay accusations and allegations (propaganda). The courts will decide, until then it’s mostly just bullshit.

If you are going to attack someone’s beliefs, then guess what, they are likely to defend themselves - just as you would. Just because you are self-proclaimed churchless and atheists doesn’t mean you have no beliefs, quite the opposite, you have v strong beliefs, many of which sound like complete new-age “woo-woo” spiritual bullshit and conspiracy theories to proper atheists.

Fact is this blog is basically a platform for promulgating your own personal beliefs. No issue with that, but if you going to dish out, then at least have the balls (or intellectual honesty) to take it.

Hi J
You wrote
"If this matter is truly important to you, then go to the source. Go to Petaluma yourself this Summer and demand answers directly. If you're not willing to do that, then you have no business demanding that satsangis do your sangat justice warrior work for you."

I think you have things backwards.
No one is asking any Satsangi to represent their interests.

It is the opposite.

Satsangis devoted to the dogma expect their Guru to absolve them of all sin and mortality.

But Satsangis devoted to truth have a nearly overwhelming body of evidence that the Dhillons received hundreds of millions in fraudulent loans, much of which they haven't repaid.

Some of us have no more questions about that.

As for those, such as yourself and Anon, who don't actually believe any of the evidence available, there is most certainly nothing for you to do. If you are not nagged even a little by the criminality involved, that is your business.

But for those who love Gurinder and can't understand how he could be any part of this, yes, after reviewing the available facts they may wish to ask him directly.

If that numbers in the thousands, then you will have thousands asking. That would be the honest thing to do for those who are unsure.

He has not posted any response, and the reports so far suggest he isn't taking responsibility for anything, which many of us find typical. That is second hand or third hand reporting of course. But that is the only witness we have.... Except...


His public silence. That speaks volumes. It is deafening.

Gurinder Singh Dillon is a fake. If he is God in human form why does he need money. If he was God he could create money out of thin air. Instead of visiting these useless babas people could visit the real wonders of India: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E23s8MmSjuQ

One more point to J, Anon and Gurinder Is...

Many of us here commenting on the fraud involving the Dhillons are initiated RSSB Satsangis devoted to the Path. That includes Brian Ji, Sonya and others. What we each have come to learn about Truth, each at our different levels of development, does not take away one single comma from that. The path of truth never changes, only our understanding of it.

We came to the path from different perspectives, and our experiences are different. What we understand about the Guru may be different. But it is fact based. And therefore we all remain Satsangis in the highest meaning any Master ever attributed to that state.

Hi GK

You wrote
"Gurinder Singh Dillon is a fake. If he is God in human form why does he need money. If he was God he could create money out of thin air."

Apparently Malvinder and Shivinder did just that. They labeled the vapor capital "loans" and in true Enron accounting fashion, booked it as income, not debt.

Gurinder is God In Human Form exactly to the same degree you and I are, and every Saint and Sinner. We are made of this creation, and have its signature in every atom of our being.

We can learn to see the Lord in everyone, even our animal friends. For He is a power, not a personality.

Hi seeker
Like I said earlier and have repeated multiple times now this blog is not the place to discuss what happens in the Q and A sessions, atleast I won’t discuss it here. If you really want to know like J said attend the session and ask and get the answer for yourself. I merely messaged here to inform all the readers that what was reported to Brian and forwarded on WhatsApp is not what transpired.
You want to believe me....great. You don’t want to believe me...also great. My duty was to point out what’s not correct and that I have done.
There is so much talk about GIhF and Perfect Masters and all that here so I’m sharing this. Listen at your leisure.
https://youtu.be/vuD60iAErFQ

Oh and with regards to Brian’s message about skeptics being the winners and believers being the losers. As far as I know we are all winners. We are discussing/thinking/dreaming about the Master—-we all win.

Anon, please. Please, please, please. PLEASE. PLEASE. Oh, please, please please. Tell us what really happened. PLEASE. Oh, please, please, PLEASE. PLEEEEEEEZE. PLEEEEEEEZE.

Hi Anami and Anon

As a loyal Satsangi Anon cannot share what Baba Ji said without officially being assigned. That would place him in an official role, which, respectfully, he is not assuming. He is honoring his Master.

It is really up to Baba Ji to decide how best to fulfill his responsibilities.

And up to each of us to make up our own minds from the available information.

For me, the information is conclusive about his participation, but not about his exact role.

Yet that participation for a true Master, is a significant ethical compromise.

Which is why I encourage Baba Ji to step forward, take full responsibility visibly, and pay his debts.

This occurs to me...

All the principles involved in Fraud are either His initiates or bound by their beliefs to serve him as if they were.


Anon
You are sounding a bit like those Satsangis who make some cryptic comment about inner regions and when pressed, refuse to give details “because it’s not allowed”
The real reason they make no comment is because they have nothing but don’t want to admit that.
So in your situation you strongly deny what Brian has written. No problem with that. Maybe it’s not quite accurate,
But why will you not give your version to replace it.
Saying “go ask your own questions” is not an answer to what he said in that satsang.
Is there a reason for your refusal to say what you heard especially as nobody knows who you are.
People only hide something if they have a reason to hide it.
People who are open and honest have no reason to hide.
The only reasonable conclusion is you have something to hide. Just be honest or stop pretending to be honest


For me, the information is conclusive about his participation, but not about his exact role.

Yet that participation for a true Master, is a significant ethical compromise.

Dear Spence,

That has the worrisome ring of someone who says "everybody knows the
Baba's up to his neck in this illegality but I won't say it... I won't say it... the
hell I won't." while landing an uppercut to the perp's jaw.

After all, as a purported Guru, shouldn't he have suspected those "lying'
eyes" of others, double checked those tax returns, read between the lines
of those flaky explanations of advisors well enough to know he was being
played?

Besides he hadda to have been apprised of the sale of the charity hospital,
the closure of the free school, the whispers of bad optics when the jet and
acreage was acquired. He's clearly a greedy Guru who's lost his way.

Could he have been bamboozled? Absolutely not. Did I mention he was a
businessman... with a Guru-role side gig. His superpowers are untold. So, if
you believe he wasn't totally aware of the scams, then you're a hopeless
sap, who having eyes, refuses to see.

But, what if a trusted adviser from the usual suspects pool did just that. Ran
a three card monte on him. It has happened again and again, all the way
back to the poison apple. How can we rule out "bad stuff" happening to
Guru's?

Shamas Tabriz was flayed alive. Christ was crucified, Great Master died of
cancer. Gurinder was treated for it as well. Couldn't he be a hapless victim
of financial fraud too?

So, why not come clean with what he knows? Maybe he doesn't know the
details? Or maybe the family attorney counseled him to remain silent. Should
he disregard him? Emulate the Donald and go on a tweet storm? Would the
press or the armchair lawyers and their posse believe him if he did?

We could of course depend on the courts to sort this out. But, that won't satisfy
the rabid mad dogs who cite judicial corruption, or a deep state, or the
conspiracy theory du jour. They know better than us all.

When men raped choir boys and nuns for years, decades, centuries...

People saw. People knew. But they had one single excuse that corrupted them and kept them from their duty as human beings...

"They haven't been tried in a court yet."


When dozens of neighbors herd Kitty Genovese scream for help for hours as she was stabbed and raped and lay bleeding to death they did nothing.

Asked why they replied, "We were certain someone would certainly have called the police if she really needed help."

Use what God have you and take your responsibility as a human being.

What is really shameful about how this is being handled is that the Sangat hasn't taken action. It is their duty to intervene.

"He said to them, 'The Scriptures declare, ‘My Temple will be called a house of prayer,’ but you have turned it into a den of thieves!'"
Matthew 21:13.

Hi s*,

Appreciate you sharing that. I can see how growing up attending Satsang at Beas in the mornings would be scary. The message is rarely uplifting. It’s more like Jesus, God! how much more of this do I have to endure???

At the morning meetings I usually didn’t turn on my translation device or left it in my room because the Satsang was so depressing. Anyway, I guess that’s pretty harsh criticism...

Thanks Anon for the video, you know Ishwarji initiated me into this path. I want the path to be true, have so many doubts. I wish the truth that I am seeking will be revealed to me.

Hi seeker. After a few decades on the path, I can honestly say that we fall into the trap that we're expecting something, especially externally, or form another "force". Truth be told, it's the easy way out. I came to this conclusion myself only recently.

No one is going to do anything for you, me, or anyone else. Pick a method that attracts you, appeals to you, do your best, and live a full, happy, engaged and honest life. That's all you can do.

I found I was unintentionally playing the victim or "waiting for an epiphany" to strike me over the head. Not gonna happen.

Live a good life and stop worrying about all the peripheral stuff. Trust me, you'll be happier and the people around you will consequently be happier as well. Despite all the nonsense, you have control over your thoughts and the ability to be a positive being. Engage.

Cheers!


People saw. People knew. But they had one single excuse that corrupted them and kept them from their duty as human beings...
"They haven't been tried in a court yet."
...
Use what God have you and take your responsibility as a human being
...
What is really shameful about how this is being handled is that the Sangat hasn't taken action. It is their duty to intervene

Brian has succeeded admirably in reporting the issues and warning of
the danger of blind belief. It's now up to those listening to examine the
evidence, demand answers, and not to become guilty bystanders.

But, to descend to the level of vigilantism by declaring we all need to
intervene further is an overstep. What could be done? Picket RSSB
satsangs with signs demanding GSD's removal, flood RSSB with angry
letters, leave the practice and invent a newer one, hold an election
to install a more carefully vetted, palatable Guru?

That ignores our own fallibility. The courts need to weigh in first at a
minimum. There is criminality but sexual assault victims aren't on the
sidewalk screaming, storm troopers aren't taking people away in the
night.

If GSD's convicted, he should certainly step down. Should a cloud
hang over him in spite of acquittal, anyone can elect to follow an
alternative path. As Ishwar Puri reports Great Master told him: you're
free to follow whatever you want. But please if you find something
better, come back... tell me and I'll follow it too.

Seeker it’s good to know that Ishwar Puri initiated you. With regards to wanting the path to be true I think a true seeker will always find the right path for them. May not happen at first but eventually you will go where your seeking leads you. I know your master (Mr Puri) has said this in his talks multiple times. He was also a seeker all his life but eventually realized that the path he was initiated into by great master was right for him. Don’t worry about right path or wrong path (I believe there isn’t just 1 path anyways) it’s what’s right for you. Good luck dear co traveller. 😊

Sins of commission, sins of omission, Dungeness.

When you see compassion, support it.

When you see fraud and theft, use your voice to acknowledge it.

This is a personal responsibility.

I'm happy that I was a satsangi for many years, from my early twenties to my fifties, and I still stick to the principles.

As to "People saw. People knew" and "the Sangat hasn't taken action. It is their duty to intervene" and "This is a personal responsibility"...

What nonsense. Talk about shame and blame! Each person is entitled to work out their own faith and beliefs. Its simple, take back one's own personal power and then leave without feelings of animosity and revenge. To each their own.

Hi Jen
You wrote
"What nonsense. Talk about shame and blame! Each person is entitled to work out their own faith and beliefs. Its simple, take back one's own personal power and then leave without feelings of animosity and revenge. To each their own."

Revenge and animosity are not a part of this at all. Those aren't my words.

My words are acknowledge the problem and encourage rehabilitation, with forgiveness, helpfulness and Ahimsa as the goal.

It seems to me that for some people acknowledging wrong doing is such a painful, terrible thing that it could only be through anger.

That is just bad parenting. Good parents help their children understand that we all make mistakes and every day, and it's natural and understandable. But sometimes we don't see it. We think we're fine.

Then someone else helps us understand that it was wrong.

And then we should not react emotionally or defensively. We are all the same. But our duty is to acknowledge our mistake and make effort to change our ways.

If all we think is that making a mistake is a terrible thing then I think that is a personality that will blame others rather than accept responsibility. Because it is too painful for them to admit their own mistakes.

Everyone around us, if there is love, will accept that we all make mistakes and help us to stop doing so where those mistakes are visible and hurtful, but where we may not see it.

Like stealing hundreds of millions of dollars. That is a bad thing.

But that requires feedback and acknowledgement to stop from our friends and family, sometimes, as is clear by the continuing secretive behavior, and the unwillingness to acknowledge and make payment arrangements.

Acknowledging when we have erred, and acknowledging when we are making progress.

Anyone in the Sangat could have said, "Baba Ji, we all need to pay our bills, and people are repossessing some of your stuff. Are you sure taking more loans is a good thing? Just setting up more shell companies is making it worse, not better. Your cousins, wife and sons love you and will do as you ask, but is this really the responsible thing to do? '

We have to help each other Jen, and that doesn't work if we can't be honest with each other about our faults and errors.

Don't think Master and Disciple.

Think one friend to another.

Think' Family Intervention'.

Baba Ji, put down the real estate brochures.


When you see compassion, support it.

When you see fraud and theft, use your voice to acknowledge it.

I salute those who speak up... early and often. It helps
so many of us break our silence.

"Thanks Anon for the video, you know Ishwarji initiated me into this path. I want the path to be true, have so many doubts. I wish the truth that I am seeking will be revealed to me." - From Seeker (see above)

People desperately want to believe their path is true, simply because they want to be SAVED!

"Saved" means different things to different people. A christian wants a place in heaven. A RSSB follower wants to have inner darshan and reach the heights of the inner regions to Sach Khand.
Any vision, any hint of a dream is taken to be confirmation that the path is true - because they desperately want it to be true.

It is an illusion based on fear. Nobody wants to die - so why not believe that "I will survive?"
This site provokes that fear and the believer wants to attack because deep down all he has is a belief and he doesnt want anyone to question that belief.
A bit like when you have an unresolved issue and "don't want to talk about it" because talking means you have to address the thing you are running away from.
There is comfort in numbers - so people hang around people of the same faith do they can get comfort and convince themselves that "We can't ALL be wrong"
but they can! Believing a delusion with more people involved doesn't make the delusion true

Hi Sonya,
Idd I did not listening to morning satsangs also.

I still love devotional shabd singing..

Spence, no person on this earth is perfect. You seem to be obsessed with perfection. Those who seek perfection unfortunately become very critical and judgmental in their attitudes. Who are you to complain about this guru who has thousands of followers to clean up his act, especially when all you have is hearsay and also he is not even hearing you. Anyway, its your problem and you will never stop nagging. Why not try "allowing" just allow other people to think and believe what they want because its none of your business anyway.

You say "My words are acknowledge the problem and encourage rehabilitation, with forgiveness, helpfulness and Ahimsa as the goal."

Wow, I've never met a satsangi who speaks like you, wanting to discipline the Master! Why don't you just go back to your Church and keep on preaching there.

You say: "It seems to me that for some people acknowledging wrong doing is such a painful, terrible thing that it could only be through anger."

Man, you are so twisted! No, its not anger, its annoyance reading your dictatorial, preachy, holier than thou statements. Actually I can't even bother to read the rest of your rant.

Like I have said before I no longer see myself as a satsangi and am still a vegetarian, no alcohol or drugs, live a moral life. I am actually very grateful that I followed this path of Sant Mat even though I no longer put someone on a pedestal or believe in a Master. I also realise that I will definitely never hear words such as "grateful" from Mr Social Justice Warrior Spence.

Hi Jen
You wrote
"Spence, no person on this earth is perfect. You seem to be obsessed with perfection."

No not at all. We are all here to help each other. No one is perfect, and that's OK. But letting people harm one another isn't right. Are we not or brother's keeper? Especially, when with a little help we can all do better, that's the right thing to do. Judging people is static. Helping people uses discrimination, but not to blame, but to bring us all together on a platform of mutual respect.

"Those who seek perfection unfortunately become very critical and judgmental in their attitudes."

Yes, and you can see for yourself.

But Jen we are all as perfect as anything else in creation. Progress, not perfection. Do not let the perfect become the enemy of the good. No one has to be perfect to make progress. Even guru can learn. Indeed, a leader should always be the role model of the good student.

You wrote

"Who are you to complain about this guru who has thousands of followers to clean up his act, especially when all you have is hearsay and also he is not even hearing you."

Jen, why not do a thought experiment? Pretend for a moment that everyone is just a person. There is no high or low. No great leader or tiny follower. Just people. Now one person, whom we love dearly, has piled up several lifetimes of debt. That's already a matter of fact, not hearsay. So let's acknowledge it and move forward, as a family.


"Anyway, its your problem and you will never stop nagging. Why not try "allowing" just allow other people to think and believe what they want because its none of your business anyway."

Jen you are suggesting I'm not allowing something. Just ask yourself where this comes from. It can't come from me. I'm just forwarding links to evidence and offering assistance.

As for gratitude, that is the basis for wanting to help.

I have loved Baba Ji for a very long time.

But the love of those who cannot think for themselves and won't risk saying what is evident may have made things worse for our brother.

"Spence, no person on this earth is perfect. You seem to be obsessed with perfection."

This is especially funny considering that we're all talking about a man with the self given title of Perfect Living Master.
I asked Frank Vogel once why he was attracted to RSSB and he said more than once that "everything he does is perfect."

I wanna get feedback from the big shots in RSSB. Do they think Gurinder is perfectly pulling off a heist? Is he perfectly deflecting honest questions? Did he perfectly select perfect criminals to give him perfect loans with which he'd perfectly squander on perfectly idiotic investments in a perfectly horrible real estate market?

Hi Jesse
I think here is a good example, on this issue of perfection.

Shell companies are created to avoid legal responsibility. If something goes wrong the corporation carries the liability not its owners. At least do long as no criminal activity can be uncovered, which is what has happened.

But ethically, it's very transparent.

So when Shivinder resigned from the boards of six shell companies that were laundering funds to the Dhillons, he was legally absolved of much of the responsibility, or so he thought.

But not the ethical responsibility, not the moral violation of fraud, falsification, and robbery.

So, perhaps this was the 'Perfect' crime. And the mastermind a 'perfect' criminal?

But not from a moral perspective.

Perfection is generally overrated, and in almost all cases overused.


Now one person, whom we love dearly, has piled up several lifetimes of debt. That's already a matter of fact, not hearsay. So let's acknowledge it and move forward, as a family.

Gosh, is that naughty "one" the Dhillon family...or the Singhs... or
Godhwani?

Or perhaps it's the whole RSSB flock now that's really the big picture?
In that case, one of our own can shepherd the little lost lamb back
to pasture and we can "move forward as a family".

Have we truly winnowed the "usual suspects" pool back down to
"Mr. Big" again? Oops, forgot It's "already a matter of fact". There's no
need to wait for those pesky, slow courts to weigh in.

We know who's guilty! The wise among the herd will bleat the verdict
with us right now. Say it loud and proud. Bang that drum. We got a
soul to save.

P.S. We'll have an "Intervention" for our black sheep... just like those
nasty humans do. Sing it! :

"Baa baa, black sheep, have you any loot?
Yes sir, yes sir, three bags full.
One for Shab', one for me, Sunny makes three.
But,hey, none to Shiv' 'n Mal up the street!

Baa, baa, black sheep, what'll ya do?
Yes sir, yes sir, I'll return it all!
Thank ya, thank ya... I was headed for a fall.
And "I luv ya" to all my flock... big and small.

Hi Dungeness
Yes that's the idea. Return the money or make a plan to do so. That's all the courts want.

If one million of us each donated $1,000 the debt would be washed away in a fortnight.

But to help assure the addiction is overcome, transparency, and public acknowledgment and accountability is required as part of the intervention.

And then all is restored. We are all as brothers and sisters again focused on the light. And Baba Ji and each of us can get back to our day jobs.

If the Sangat is truly about love, real love, then what is the delay?

A court will only do harshly and poorly what encouragement, accountability and transparency by family, friends and associates serious about getting things back on track can do much more effectively if they come together.

And Dungeness, one more point.
Let this be the perfect model for how problems are solved within the Sangat and among all Satsangi families.

Not by the rough accountability of courts, but by the honesty and accountability of family and friends who, together, intervene and demand honesty, acknowledgement, and effort to overcome, while supporting their brothers and sisters through rehabilitation to restoration.

It is the unwillingness of people to step forward and intervene that forces police, courts and jails to act as the flawed substitutes.

And Dungeness, one more point.
Let this be the perfect model for how problems are solved within the Sangat and among all Satsangi families.

Not by the rough accountability of courts, but by the honesty and accountability of family and friends who, together, intervene and demand honesty, acknowledgement, and effort to overcome, while supporting their brothers and sisters through rehabilitation to restoration.

It is the unwillingness of people to step forward and intervene that forces police, courts and jails to act as the flawed substitutes.

The perfection of the Master is reflected in the conduct of the Sangat.

So let the Sangat start acting perfectly, in this and all matters.
Let's not let another act of harm witnessed by Satsangis and any one in any family remain hidden and unresolved every again. No matter who commits that harm.

Let the first duty of each of us be to act and intervene with love, and honesty, and expectation and support for rehabilitation, and forgiveness, when any harm is done to anyone.

You can't call the Master perfect without a perfect ethic.
But if there is a perfect ethic then there is no need to pretend anyone is perfect. To pretend the Master is perfect requires lying and loses the whole point.

But a perfect ethic we can all come together to strive towards, with the leader as the most visible student.


Not by the rough accountability of courts, but by the honesty and accountability of family and friends who, together, intervene and demand honesty, acknowledgement, and effort to overcome, while supporting their brothers and sisters through rehabilitation to restoration.

It is the unwillingness of people to step forward and intervene that forces police, courts and jails to act as the flawed substitutes

But Spence, however well-intentioned families are, they're no substitute
for codified law and courts. The criminal excesses of the Mafia, vigilantes,
and various cults provide stark reminders of what happens without a legal
bulwark against DIY ideas of "justice".

Notwithstanding rogue states, courts provide the tools, the expertise, and
impartiality to weigh evidence, rule fairly in accordance with established
law, and to protect institutions and people from those who think they're
above the law. Many of the latter will never be helped by interventions.

I agree Intervening can certainly be good in limited circumstances within
a family unit. But, tacitly pronouncing a subject "guilty" after reading a
few news reports and declaring them ripe for intervention is hardly
"support and forgiveness". It's more like the slippery slope to "shaming",
by religious courts, ostracizing, or denouncing, even burning at the
stake, however figuratively, to purge them of demonic forces.

Conflating allegations with facts isn't persuasive either. Let the courts do
their job.

Spence you say: "So let the Sangat start acting perfectly, in this and all matters...

But if there is a perfect ethic then there is no need to pretend anyone is perfect. To pretend the Master is perfect requires lying and loses the whole point.

But a perfect ethic we can all come together to strive towards, with the leader as the most visible student."

Spence, you talk about ethics and morals and perfection and striving.

Brother you are trapped in this belief of perfection. It would be nice for you to lighten up a bit and just let go.

I don't like striving. Each of us has their own personal power. I prefer being a free spirit and letting go...

Dance, when you're broken open.
Dance, if you've torn the bandage off.
Dance in the middle of the fighting.
Dance in your blood.
Dance when you're perfectly free.

Rumi

Hi Jen
I do like driving for a goal. I like moving forward.

The goal may not be perfect, actually it's a human goal.

But the idea of placing a goal above anyone helps keep us all humble.

Having a goal actually is a humbling thing, X especially if it is unattainable.

Then set are forced to either abandon the goal...

Or take a look at our own progress. And progress, to me, is all that matters.

Dance, when you're broken open.
Dance, if you've torn the bandage off.
Dance in the middle of the fighting.
Dance in your blood.
Dance when you're perfectly free.

Rumi

This is meditation. Calligraphy of the heart. We write using the brush of Simran upon the paper of Bhajan. And the more ink we lay down, the more paper unscrolls... We are dancing with the paper, and the brush in our hands is the Simran we speak internally...

The brush, the ink and the paper are in a love affair, constantly moving, constantly in motion, each gentle climax leading onward to the next.

Spencer - ‘If one million of us each donated $1,000 the debt would be washed away in a fortnight.’

Yeah right why don’t we also lend $1000 to the thousands of ‘poor’ villagers who follow RSSB, so that they can help pay off the outstanding debt!

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