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May 11, 2019

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Hi Brian
This is an excellent summary.
In short, Malvinder is practically under court order to recover the funds he loaned To Dhillon family members. If he does every thing he can, then he has acted in good faith. Shivinder is actually more at risk of contempt of court by impeding such efforts.

You cited Fortis ' petition, which mirrors a similar request from the new Religare board...

"...In its 13 February petition, Fortis asked the regulator to invoke the law under which a person can be arrested and held in prison. Under the same provision, properties can be attached from defaulted entities, including bank accounts of their heirs, successors, legal representatives to the extent of the full loan accounts and interest thereupon."

This means that even though Shivinder exited from the boards all in one day of six of the shell companies he and Malvinder used in their fraud, it doesn't matter. Even if those entities file bankruptcy they aren't off the hook. Both Fortis and Religare are asking the court for permission to freeze personal assets of the recipients of the money, largely Dhillon family members.

And in the article posted on the RSSB website some investment entities have already frozen some of Dhillon family assets for failure to make their payments.

Short version, Baba Ji, we love you, so please pay your bills, come clean, and live to to the vows. We will help in any way possible. But it do starts with coming clean.

Please put down the checkbook....


I really hope Gurinder goes to jail, but only for a short time. Reason being that India needs to make it clear that they're getting serious about corruption and this case is a perfect one for making that example and setting the tone. That is assuming that those of us who think Gurinder and family are guilty of financial crimes are correct, of course.

But I say I hope he's jailed for a short time because the riots I've predicted to happen by the new less educated satsangi crowd could maybe be avoided or minimized that way, if Gurinder gives the orders to them at least. Maybe they could strike a deal that all the properties are sold at auction and all assets are stripped from the family plus a short stint in Tihar jail where Gurinder could do livestreamed satsangs on youtube or something.

If they go ham and try jailing him for a decade or something they'll have to really bring in a lot of police to forcefully chill out all the idiots with tear gas and "lathi charges."

Pray for peace, everyone. Moment of silence.


Short version, Baba Ji, we love you, so please pay your bills, come clean, and live to to the vows. We will help in any way possible. But it do starts with coming clean. Please put down the checkbook...

Shouldn't we be exhorting the Dhillon "family" --to include GSD's wife and sons--
Godhwani, the Singh nephews, the "death threat attorney" fo all come clean?
One and all?

Must Gurinder take the rap for all it? Go Guru-like to the cross and utter
"Forgive me, I, the "Baba", stand surety for the sins of all" in the final act of
atonement?

There could be multiple "perps" shuffling out of the court in disgrace.
Shouldn't we wait and remind those particular erring souls of the vows,
pour out love 'n help when they need it most?

Hi Dungeness:

You asked
"Must Gurinder take the rap for all it?"

Naturally, legally, it will all be proportional to whomever received loans...

But when you are the Master, morally, yes, captain of the ship and all...

@ spencer - if Gurinder must take the rap. So will your master and you. You have desired him behind bars and the universe is preparing the very bars you want for him - for you!

Don’t you think that is beautiful - I do.

Much love as always brother! I am pretty condemned by the actions of my life and you have brought first class tickets to join me.

X

Who signed for the loans? I had to sign many things
to get a new car loan. Is Gurinder's signature on anything at all?

Unless a doc can be produced bearing gurinders Sig, saying "I coerced the leaders of a corp to make loans that we both knew were illegal," then I wouldn't bet on g getting even a wrist slap, let alone jail time.

Jesse, u r an idiot.
Baba had committed no legal offence, so why he go jail.
Never.
Other people not him

Spence you don’t understand what is a master, he is not a human like you
He is sent by sat purush
He has greatly expanded RSSB and made it a science

Sat purush is happy with him
Only you are unhappy

You judge him and you have no right

Spence, you judge a master?
So you think you are higher than a master appointed by sat purush?

Not sure what spiritual merit you claim, but it is fake if you go against the guru.
No disciple in history has ever gone against his own master and you say you are following orders from the radiant form of guruji. This is rubbish. You need your brain tested. Go to doctor.
Guru had done no wrong. You think you are higher than guru. You are trapped by kal.
Ask guru for forgiveness or you will suffer so much
Anyone who goes against guru cannot be forgiven.
Scriptures say do not consider guru to be a man, he is the darling of sat purush. Those who consider him a man are blind

No one on this earth is above the law.

Don’t matter if it’s the president, the emperor or god almighty himself. If there are other realms, different laws may apply, but not to this one.

Whether any offense against those laws has been committed is a separate issue. To be judged by the courts, not by biased ppl on blogs who might someone to be guilty or not.

To elaborate a bit on my previous post, here's why I think it's unlikely Gurinder, or perhaps even the "Gurinder family," will face serious legal punishment for the loans.

If authorities discover valid legal contracts showing that Gurinder or his family misled the Singh brothers on the terms of the loan, or promised some kind of quid pro quo in exchange for the loans, then that side of the family would have some share of legal culpability in this affair.

At this point, I think it's unlikely that's going to happen. That's because I doubt if anything was put down on paper that would implicate Gurinder or family as the parties who instigated illegal financial actions. That doesn't mean they couldn't morally be at fault for taking these huge loans. Generally speaking, if any financial entity loans you money, then absent of any contracts or recorded promises or coercion, the legal onus is on them (and not you) for making you that loan.

Malvinder's comments seem to indicate that he has no real legal case against Gurinder and his family. For whatever reason, Malvinder thought it a good idea to give his guru's family a humongous loan out of the coffers of a corporation. Was Malvinder somehow coerced into doing this, or did he think it was OK and that he was serving God by doing it? Did he tell the Gurinder family that the loan was legal? Did he himself believe the loan was somehow legal, or that he'd get the lent crores back fast enough that it would matter? Or did the Gurinder family know the loan was illegal and unethical and didn't care, and pushed Malvinder into forking over the crores because they knew Malvinder and bro would be the fall guys? There are crores of other possibilities, and as you can tell I like using the word crores.

My own speculation is that when you take the Indian family, Guru bhakti, a gigantic religious organization and crores of rupees together, it creates an environment where people feel pushed to do things against their better nature. In other words, I think it likely that the Singh brothers felt impelled to please the Guru, and this was a big factor in why the loans were made. As I wrote before, guru devotees tend to fall all over themselves to do whatever they can to please the guru. This is how gurus like Rajinder Singh somehow became multi-millionaires despite having no job for 30 years. Evidence shows that Rajinder's family members and certain wealthy initiates are the source of the money. And as I wrote before, I strongly suspect this family/initiate dynamic was responsible for Charan Singh's no-job wealth.


Hallelujah we have a jury,
Or is it a minion?

Family business is a family affair.
Obviously when it affects public interest and public money it steps into another dimension.

No one outside of the family has really got much to do with their relationship so they can gesture and make assumptions from the top of the golden temple of morality.

It's only when the legal process is followed through the process of jurisprudence under control of a corporate council of arbitration or higher authority can anyone who is unfamiliar with the inner dynamics and agreements cast any kind of assertion of culpability.

Ahimsa, Fortis is a publicly traded company. Shareholders were affected by this. Unless only members of their family owned shares of the company.

"It's only when the legal process is followed through the process of jurisprudence under control of a corporate council of arbitration or higher authority can anyone who is unfamiliar with the inner dynamics and agreements cast any kind of assertion of culpability. "

My god that was ridiculous. Stop trying to sound smart using too many unnecessary words. Just say "legal process" or "the courts will decide" next time. I fell asleep waiting for that horrible sentence to end.

You're retarded if you don't immediately see that this is pure corruption, especially considering the family's history of secretly selling dirty meds to genocide the Africans and lying to the Japanese about it.

This is the problem with modern people. You think that some outside authority has to verify every single belief you might hold or make all judgements for you based on amounts of evidence that are impossible to attain.

It's like some kid down the street steals everyone's bike, everyone knows he's already stolen 20 bikes, and your bike goes missing. Later you see the bike in his yard but refuse to accuse him of theft without video evidence. You're not being careful or democratic or whatever thing you like to call yourself to feel good about yourself and "with the times." You're just being stupid. You're an impediment to progress in any real sense of the word. An obstacle. A problem.

These Singh dudes are involved in shady money. The details are just details. Accept it.

You're riddled with conspiracy theories
'genocide the Africans' and 20 stolen bycicles = PC democrats vs Gung ho republican cowboys, where do you dream this stuff up? I'm seriously not interested in your in house - in head politics.

"I fell asleep waiting for that horrible sentence to end."
LOL

I said nothing about politics, Ahimsa.

The genocide thing was a joke relating to the dirty meds that one of the Singh bros companies were selling. Not politics. Not a conspiracy. It's on record and real.

The bikes was a metaphor about how immensely stupid you are and how you need authorities to hold your hand and tell you what you believe.

You're not my equal.

It's true about dirty meds in Africa and lying to the Japanese. Malvinder was in it elbow deep, directing fraud at Ranbaxy to crank out bad pharmaceuticals and dump them all over the world, especially the Third World. The Singh brothers owe Daiichi Sankyo $500 millon for concealment of fact in the sale of their stake in Ranbaxy...

http://amp.timeinc.net/fortune/2013/05/15/dirty-medicine

https://www.businesstoday.in/current/corporate/singh-brothers-lose-usd-500-million-case-against-daiichi-in-singapore-court/story/303001.html

Between Malvinder Singh and executive management and the lack of generic drug monitoring ethos within Ranbaxy Pharmaceutical company, according to the Fortune 2013 report, is the underlying factor in the financial fallout scenario affecting the Singh Brothers.

Which in turn has taken a sharp twist of interest to the financial reporting of divested funds from the holding companies to subsidiaries, subsequent to the Daiichi Sankyo sale, as Religare operators M. Singh and S. Godwani effectively orchestrated the said transactions.

According to the accounts generated by the internet trial by proxy opinions, this supposedly relates culpability to the RSSB management and the RSSB head. Which is the imaginary dichotomy of some hard core conspiracy theories generated within certain skeptical media and minds.

Gurinder is innocent,

Your idea of what the Master is seems to be different to what Gurinder himself believes. Gurinder has said that he is not God and that he cannot forgive sins yet the Indian sangat still wants to worship him when he does not wish to be worshipped. Gurinder knows that he is not God and tries to make this very clear but all of the superstitious Indian and Western Satsangis keep insisting that he is god in human form. “Baba Ji” does not believe that he is God in human form. He certainly does not believe that he is Sat Parush. Ask him for yourself.

If anyone was interested in aiming at being this conspiracy theorists equal, they'd be setting the bar of intelligence and intellectual prowess rather low.

Gurinder won’t willingly tell a lie. He will avoid telling telling the truth if it’s inconvenient but he won’t lie. So, people just need to ask him direct questions and ask for direct answers.

Good idea Sonya, I think I like that suggestion. How about you be first?

That may be what’s fundamentally wrong with Sant Mat—not being able to get a straight answer from the Masters and that so much is left open to interpretation. There’s a lot of grey area...

Given our recent discussion of Faqir Chand, it's possible that mental projections of Baba Ji engaged in financial activities about which his physical self knew nothing.

Ahimsa, there are few if any conspiracy theories here.
The Securities and Exchange Board of India ruled that fraud and falsification had been committed by the Singh brothers, both Malvinder and Shivinder, in their efforts to provide loans largely to the Dhillon family and other RSSB associates.

The new Religare board also conducted their own audits and went further in their EOW to the Delhi police and the court, stating that their information proved the recipients of the loans knew and participated in fraud.

The unpaid loans at Fortis threw that healthcare company into financial distress leading to efforts to gain a buyer.

Further, it is a matter of legal court documented testimony that RSSB transferred a new 200 bed charitable hospital mid-construction to Fortis.

If the Dhillon family would simply pay their debts, that would be a step towards living up to the vows.

It is not unusual for Gurus and others, charismatic and loved by many, to have human failings and flawed character.

But it is also the case that this is psychologically near impossible for their loving followers to consider.

And that is understandable.

However, from a psychological and spiritual perspective, the excuses we make for the Guru do not help them in the least. They are actually excuses for our own weaknesses and nothing more.

We only enable our own addictions and shortcomings making claims of spiritual perfection for others when we are unqualified to make such assertions, nor would a true teacher of the highest truth ever allow such claims.

And the reason is simple. The Truth is greater than any individual personality, and should be regarded above any individual.

A person merged in that truth is not magnified, but perfectly humbled, law abiding in every sense, and near invisible socially.

The "conspiracy" I believe is aimed at Gurinder.

The SEBI board plus the Singapore judgment, and all alleged culpability claims, plus internal audit reports by Religare etc, are thus far directed at the erstwhile officers of Ranbaxy and Religare Holding companies. Viz. Malvinder and Shivinder Singh, and perhaps ex CEO Sunil Godwani.

Once the dust is settled and the matter has been heard in court, and culpability firmly and finally found pertaining to specific parties, then it can be extricated out of "conspiracy" status and into adjudged fact.

At this point in time it remains uncertain allegations in GSD's personal capacity. The parties summoned to court in my understanding are the 2 ex Religare officers M. and S. Singh.

I prefer Sonya's suggestion that somebody addresses Gurinder directly with the alleged charges and get direct response first hand.

Perhaps Spence can be the 'conspirators' spokesman.

Or the appointed council for the 'preemptive' prosecution.

Sonya why do you say he won’t lie?

Hi Ahimsa
The Singh boys and Gidwhani, along with several shell companies Shivinder used to run have all been indicted by the Delhi crimes division.

Religare has asked that the loan recipients be indicted by the court also.

That would include Gurinder and family.

Anon, he won’t tell a direct lie because he knows the price is too high. However, there is a big difference between simply not telling a lie and being honest. Honesty is different. Honesty doesn’t misdirect.

Ahisma, I did.

Sonya didn’t you think that perhaps what looks to you as not telling a lie is just him being honest? You are jumping to assumptions again.


If the Dhillon family would simply pay their debts, that would be a step towards living up to the vows.
...
However, from a psychological and spiritual perspective, the excuses we make for the Guru do not help them in the least. They are actually excuses for our weaknesses and nothing more.

Dear Spence,

All true. But there's an implicit indictment in this transparent shift from
"Dhillon family" to "excuses we make for the Guru". It's unmistakeably
an indictment of GSD and it happens over the course of a few words.

The language has evolved a bit. A few threads ago in CofC, remarks
hurled at GSD were "Pay your debts, dude!", "Get out your checkbook".
It's a kinder, more veiled vilification with a routine inclusion of his "family"
in the "usual suspects", but, gosh, we all know it's that greedy, heartless
"Baba" who's really to blame. You know, the one who closed the free
school, sold a charitable hospital, bought himself expensive toys, ...


We only enable our own addictions and shortcomings making claims of spiritual perfection for others when we are unqualified to make such assertions, nor would a true teacher of the highest truth ever allow such claims.

True, but, at the same time, those who aren't legally trained professionals
aren't qualified to insinuate who the mastermind is likely to be either.
That reveals "our own addictions and shortcomings" just as starkly.


And the reason is simple. The Truth is greater than any individual personality, and should be regarded above any individual.

Well, if GSD is go on the sacrificial altar for the sake of "The Truth", he
should at least get a fair hearing in a court and not be convicted in
the press or in a fact-loving, fair-minded blog like this.

Anon, WTF does that even mean???

Hi Dungeness
Every Satsangi sincerely interested in rising above attachment, and living for spirituality must now tell themselves they don't really know what happened, that Baba Ji is a mystery.

Whatever you think of Baba Ji, stuff is going on with fraud on an international scale. And he and his family were recipients of most of those fraudulent loans.

The fact that you believe you don't have enough information to conclude he was involved in stuff no Satsangi should go near is very sad.

Truth Invites inspection. Baba Ji has a duty to model for us how to live. And that never includes privileges afforded to the rich, powerful and 'perfect'. Yet today, in order to defend Baba Ji, Satsangis must every day make excuses to themselves, with justifications for why he would be the central recipient of fraudulent monies year after year, and why he 'doesn't need to repay, since he's god and it all belongs to him anyway.'

Too close to the excuses Christians in Germany gave to Hitler, and to themselves for turning a blind eye.

The Lord comes as one of us, to our level. They act as though they are responsible for their children, and not the other way around.

What you and others are doing is demonstrating why religion rarely leads the way and often becomes an obstacle that allows harm to innocent people, even exploitation of them.

I'm afraid Dungeness you have no idea of the harm that is actually being done even now.

But when do the disciples of a fake Guru figure it out?

Almost always they are the last, after so much damage has been done.


Baba Ji, pay your bills.

,
Yet today, in order to defend Baba Ji, Satsangis must every day make excuses to themselves, with justifications for why he would be the central recipient of fraudulent monies year after year, and why he 'doesn't need to repay, since he's god and it all belongs to him anyway.

Um, Spence, I don't think I've ever rationalized the clearly fraudulent actions
that have occurred. Nor am I delusional that the Dhillon family is innocent.
Nor do I assert GSD acts in divinely inspired ways that can't be questioned.

No, I recognize and applaud the legal scrutiny of GSD et al under this cloud.
Even if not found criminally liable, the Dhillon family must repay fraudulent
loans. The Sangat is owed his promised explanation of events as well.


Too close to the excuses Christians in Germany gave to Hitler, and to themselves for turning a blind eye.... I'm afraid Dungeness you have no idea of the harm that is actually being done
even now.

I agree delusion is harmful whatever the setting. But you're framing an
argument that we can shortcircuit courts and fair treatment and go
directly to judgment. If not on financial fraud, then certainly on matters
of spiritual fitness.

Why? Well, judging from the tenor of remarks in CofC, he, as Guru, is the
proximate cause for lotsa stuff. Did I mention he's greedy, has heartlessly
closed a free school, sold a charitable hospital, squandered money on a
jet, had a hand in genociding kids with bad meds, and, dunno, but did
ya hear the rumors he may be dipping into the Seva box.

Even with no conviction, his silence and the appearance of financial
impropriety render him unfit. He should turn in his "Guru Card" and resign.
That's the Blog's verdict -at least those who "see the obvious" about his
behavior.

By the way, since Hitler's in the conversation, he swept into power without
a plurality in 1933. Dachau was open for business that same year. Then it
became dangerous to resist. Opine away with platitudes about being
strong. The truth is most aren't.

The Gestapo acted extra-judicially and "offenders" were detained on false
charges or no charges at all. All it took was a denunciation and, either
religious or irreligious, you disappeared with a knock on the door.

We should cherish fairness and the rule of law. Even for a Guru whose head
many are clamoring for. No matter how many voices denounce him. No
matter what the"Anointed Few" opine about religious fitness.

Agochar's post on'' radhasoamistudies'

Baba Faqir Rumi: The Disciple is Genuine Even If the Guru is Not


"It takes a long time for the hidden mystery (reality) of a man to become more or less evident so that we may know whether under the wall of his body there is a (spiritual) treasure, or there are holes of ants (of carnal hankerings), snakes (of envy and spite) and dragons (of temptations, attachments, hubris, wiles and guiles). And by the time the seeker discovers that he is an imposter, it is too late to make amends.


"Sometimes, though rarely, a seeker sincerely trusting a meretricious imposter and believing that he is someone in particular, by means of his trust, attains to a spiritual state which the imposter has not even dreamt of...


"Sometimes, though rarely, the disciple (of a false guru) because of the sincerity of his quest for God may derive spiritual benefit even from that false guru (literally, 'the falsehood of the imposter may turn out to be profitable to the seeker.'). Due to his own honest intention he ascends to a higher spiritual region (not because of but despite the pretender whom he imagined to be the 'soul' but who turned out to be only 'flesh'.) Such a sincere seeker may even have spiritual experiences which his worthless guru may not have had in ages."


-- Mathnawi of Rumi, Volume I, M.G. Gupta Translation, M.G. Publishers, Agra

Gurinder's family received loans. Baba Gurinder is like Hitler, and therefore, satsangis who support Gurinder are like morally numb Nazis.

So glad I was initiated by Charan Singh. My guru earned his living righteously as a farmer in his spare time. None of Charan's family members ever helped him out with loans or outright gifts of money.

Hello s*

Great quotes! Kind of verifies the premise I'm going on: we all have the opportunity built within us to experience the inner bliss and whatever is inside each one of us. We just need to be shown the method.

Effort, determination, and time is what will help develop the fortitude and calm to experience the inner stuff.

From Faqir Chand, I believe he was on to this. Through his satsangs, he intimated that it's the individual and their faith that drives the experiences and the inner progress. In his own case, he had tread a path with his own guru with bhakti, and that showed his "bias" if you can call it that. Once he realized what the true nature of the experience is, then he molded his teachings around individual faith and the guru's unknowing of the events of the seekers.

Fascinating, and goes to show that experimentation within is in our hands, not by grovelling in front of a saint or prostrating helplessly that we can't do anything. Personal responsibility. It's a cop out to say that I can't do anything, I'm too weak, I need the guru's grace, etc...

my 2 cents...

Hi S*
You cited Rumi
"
"Sometimes, though rarely, the disciple (of a false guru) because of the sincerity of his quest for God may derive spiritual benefit even from that false guru (literally, 'the falsehood of the imposter may turn out to be profitable to the seeker.'). Due to his own honest intention he ascends to a higher spiritual region (not because of but despite the pretender whom he imagined to be the 'soul' but who turned out to be only 'flesh'.) Such a sincere seeker may even have spiritual experiences which his worthless guru may not have had in ages."

I think this sums things up very nicely.

The true Saints are in the audience.

J your message is very confusing.

Can any of these Radha Swami versions of "Rumi" even be considered to be translations? Sufism or tasawwuf has pretty specific guidelines that don't really match up with sant mat, and I'm pretty confident that Rumi didn't talk about gurus,being that he was an Islamic theologian.

Sometimes I like how Indians appropriate various religious traditions, but often times, as in the case of these Rumi translations, it is a real disservice and a deception more than anything else.

Jesse,

Maybe you are right,but..

What I hear,read here is that it anyhow,anyway is the disciple who''works and loves''
So it's the sadana of the ''disciple''that does the work and feels the love.
He so can grow byond the guru.
I think that is true.
It is indeed what Faqir Chand says..

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