A bonobo talks to an atheist about morality and religion

OK, the title of this post isn't literally correct. Bonobos can't talk, at least not in a human language.

But Frans de Waal is an expert on bonobos and other primates, who are our closest evolutionary relatives. At the end of his book, "The Bonobo and the Atheist: In Search of Humanism among the Primates, " de Waal imagines what a bonobo would tell an atheist. 

This amounts to a good summary of the entire book, which I finished reading recently.

Frans de Waal doesn't believe in God. He does, however, recognize that while religions are a human invention, they are a natural outgrowth of human capacities  -- such as imagination and a strong social inclination.

As you can read below, de Waal understands from his primate research, plus his knowledge of other animals, that what we'd call "morality" is very much in evidence among non-human animals. (We are animals also, of course, mammalian variety.)

In the first 222 pages of his book, de Waal provides a lot of evidence about this. Then, in his final "Bottom-Up Morality" chapter, he draws conclusions from that evidence --  which is encapsulated in his bonobo-talking-to-an-atheist final section.

Enjoy.

What would a bonobo tell an atheist? 

...The bonobo would first of all urge the atheist to stop "sleeping furiously." There is no point in getting all worked up about the absence of something, especially something as open to interpretation as God. True, if being a self-declared atheist carries a stigma, as it unfortunately does in this nation, frustration is understandable.

...I am all for a reduced role of religion, with less emphasis on the almighty God and more on human potentials. This is nothing new, of course. It is the humanist agenda. Nowadays, humanism is often viewed as antireligious, but this is certainly not how it started.

...I should be careful here, though, because calling any values "religious" is problematic. It rather seems that universal human values have been appropriated by various religions, each supporting them with their own narratives and making them their own.

...Tolerance of religion, even if religion is not always tolerant in return, allows humanism to focus on what is most important, which is to build a better society based on natural human abilities. The outcome is the ongoing experiment in the West of an increasingly secular society.

Like that of tectonic plates, the shifting is extremely gradual.

Humanity cannot and will not change on a dime,  and it's also not as if religion is an alien influence. It is very much our creation, part of who we are, fully intertwined with our respective cultures. We had better get along with it and learn from it, even if our goal is ultimately to set out on a new course.

The bonobo would urge the atheist to take a similar long-term perspective. 

The good news is that the main ingredients of a moral society don't require religion, since they come from within. Despite its emphasis on reason, humanism considers our species a creature as much of passion as of intellect. This is where the bonobo has no trouble connecting. We have the emotions of a social animal, and not just any animal, but a mammal.

...We are driven by inborn values and emotions, which guide rather than dictate behavior. They nudge us in a given direction, but leave plenty of leeway.

As a result, we have the capacity to care for those unable to return the favor, adopt unrelated young, cooperate with strangers, and empathize with members of a different species. 

And we're not the only ones; the latest example was the assistance humpback whales gave to a mother gray whale defending her calf against a killer whale assault. Mammals are affected by the distress of others, leading to levels of altruism far in excess of what gene-centric theories predict.

This is why the bonobo disagrees with anyone who pits evolution against morality, such as the well-known American neurosurgeon Benjamin Carson, who has claimed, "Ultimately , if you accept the evolutionary theory, you dismiss ethics, you don't have to abide by a set of moral codes, you determine your own conscience based on your own desires."

The problem with such statements is that if humans everywhere develop a sense of right and wrong, one of our deepest desires must be to live in a moral world. Carson assumes that morality goes against our nature, and that our desires are all bad, whereas the whole point of this book is to argue the opposite.

Thank God, if I may, we share with other primates a background as group animals, which makes us value social connections. Absent this background, religion could be preaching about virtue and vice until it became blue in the face, we'd never get its point.

We are receptive only because of our evolved grasp of the value of relationships, the benefits of cooperation, the need for trust and honesty, and so on. Even our sense of fairness derives from this background,

Here the bonobo would side with the atheist and argue that whatever the role of religion in morality, it's a Johnny-come-lately role. Morality arose first, and modern religion latched onto it. Instead of giving us the moral law, the large religions were invented to bolster it.

We are only just beginning to explore how religion does so by binding people together and enforcing good behavior. It is far from  my intention to minimize this role, which was vital in the past and may remain so in the foreseeable future, but the wellspring of morality it is not.

Finally, the bonobo laughs at the intellectual torture of trying to separate "is" from "ought," which vexes any debate about moral evolution. It is widely accepted within philosophy that we cannot move from the way humans or animals are to moral ideals. 

The first is descriptive, they say, the second prescriptive. This is a serious consideration that is not easily resolved,  but a good start would be to get our premises straight.

If the thought is that animals are mere "wantons," lacking control over the impulses that nature has given them, we are on the wrong track. Like us, animals favor certain outcomes, and react with fear or violence to any deviation. Who says the bonobo can do whatever he wants?

Even with regard to sex, where he faces fewer constraints than we do, he still needs a willing partner as well as the absence of dominant males. He faces many expectations about his conduct, which others won't hesitate to remind him of as soon as he scares an infant or tries to steal a female's food.

Even if he lacks notions of right and wrong that transcend his personal situation,  his values are not altogether different from those underlying human morality. He, too, strives to fit in, obeys social rules, empathizes with others, amends broken relationships, and objects to unfair arrangements. 

We may not wish to call it morality, but his behavior isn't free of prescriptions either.

With this observation, the bonobo concludes his advice to the atheist, whom he sees as a protester rather than an advocate. The big challenge is to move forward, beyond religion, and especially beyond top-down morality. Our best-known "moral laws" offer nice post hoc summaries of what we consider moral, but are limited in scope and full of holes.

Morality has much more humble beginnings, which are recognizable in the behavior of other animals. Everything science has learned in the last few decades argues against the pessimistic view that morality is a thin veneer over a nasty human nature. 

On the contrary, our evolutionary background lends a massive helping hand without which we would never have gotten this far.

Comments

[Ahimsa]

Isn't the nature of group thinking ideologically linked to survival of the species and clinging to culture, tribe, group, clan, social structure, nations, likes vs likes, the fundamentals of all atrocities wars conflict in nature and society?

So where's the morality of a troupe of chimps going on the war path in hunting down less defensively capable vervets or other primate species?

It's been war of the species and eat or be eaten since time immemorial, so I fail to understand where this inbred mammalian moral code is supposed to be so ethically introduced into social structures from bottom up evolution than from consciousness (or conscience) down models as prescribed by religious beliefs, as is suggested by the author of the piece.

[anami]

Bonobos received morality from bonobo gods. Whales from whale gods. Isn't it obvious?

[Spence Tepper]

It's interesting to see the morality of animals in those many instances where it is superior to those of human beings.

Animals may fight over territory, but they rarely kill each other, and never wholesale as humans do, on the order of magnitude in the hundreds, thousands, millions.

The chief does get the spoils, but in the animal kingdom it is rarely more than they can use, and when it is, the rest goes immediately to the tribe.

Only humans horde lifetimes of resources they will never use, forcing the rest of the tribe into poverty or early death.

And in animal tribes theft is limited to what you can carry, while among humans it is rampant and on an order of magnitude that makes animals seem like saints of thrift and generosity.

They don't steal from the sick, robbing millions from a health care system.

We can learn something about nature. It isn't great, but what humans have done is often rapacious and obscene, and often in the name of God and Guru.

[Ahimsa]

I am sure the question posed here by the author is whether 'morality' is a learned invested state through applying faculty of discrimination and reason, and or laws / ethics brought about through human beliefs. Or whether it is inherent in the DNA, so to speak, of evolutionary factors in protecting, defending, nurturing, and imbibing a 'moralistic' type behavior between species, and group / tribe empathy and bonding.

I'm sure each case is different and cannot be blanketly generalized. Dogs, cats, dolphins, whales, all classes of mammals both domesticated or wild, have certain empathetic states of cooperation in the group dynamic and respond to inter related stigma of affection, nurturing, grooming, affiliation etc.

This is nature, love fundamentally drives everything from alpha to omega, whether in human form or lower in the chain of evolution.

I am assuming the big question is, does this derived state of "love' which manifests as moral or ethical behavior patterns of such interrelationship amongst and between species, a stepping down state from a higher level conscience and consciousness, or is it inherent from the bottom rungs of evolution inbred inside the core of survival insinct through preservation of the species?

[Ahimsa]

Male lions fight to the death when it's over territory, or over dominance of a pride. They will even kill a rival's offspring rather than allow them to grow up to become adversaries later. When it's time to show face between rivaling alpha males in pretty much all species, it's a fight to the death no quarter asked or given. Hippos, lions, tigers, pretty much every specie under the sun.

Troupes of chimps hunt down lesser resourceful or physically dominant primates and eat them alive like cannibals. Humans are supposedly directly descended from chimps according to recent Darwinian attributed theories supposedly born out by biological DNA studies.

Pretty much every specie on the planet seeks out its prey and eats it, alive in most cases. Unless they are herbivores. Spider males and praying mantis males get chewed and swallowed alive by their consorting female 'partners' once they've copulated and provided her offspring.

Nature is pretty horrific when looking at it in clear light of awareness. That's why when Buddha sat under the Gobi tree and became enlightened he opened his eyes and proclaimed unequivocally that 'everything in this creation is born and exists in suffering'.

[Brian Hines]

Ahimsa, it seems clear that morality is bottom-up, not top-down, since other animals don't have sophisticated conceptual systems that allow them to understand ideas like "morality" as humans do. Yet they act morally. And since there is no evidence for any sort of supernatural consciousness, obviously this can't be the source of top-down morality.

[Ahimsa]

Brian my question is, it's not a learned imposed 'morality' from a hierarchical set of principles, but I am of the opinion that the driving force in all of nature stems from a higher source of consciousness. That even the lowest form of evolutionary species is embedded with intrinsic conscious, call it 'divinity', for lack of a reasonable scientific concept or word to attribute to such a factor (energy source) of life.

Without life force there is no life, and life force is not material or physical, it's something else.

So the underlying binding nurturing 'moralistic' behavior pattern found in animals and possibly most species at different levels of interaction, I believe is a derivative of love, which in essence is not hereditary from a lower evolutionary 'bottom up' level, but from a higher 'conscious' level, from whence all life is derived.

[Brian Hines]

Ahimsa, if you read de Waal's book you'll see that he takes issue with the outmoded idea that nature is all about violence and self-centered behavior. Sure, to some extent this is true, just as it is true that we humans are responsible for more killing and violence than any other species.

But there's a tremendous amount of caring and compassion in animals. His book cites many examples of that. Just watch dogs on a dog park. Or bears playing with their young. Evolution has led animals to get along just as much, if not more, as it has led to competitive instincts.

[Brian Hines]

Ahimsa, you're entitled to your belief, but that doesn't make it true. Belief in a higher consciousness is just a concept, not reality. Religions have all kinds of concepts, including the one you choose to accept. Reality, though, is different from human concepts. This is something believers in supernaturalism, like you, tend to forget. I choose to embrace reality, but you're free to choose otherwise.

[Ahimsa]

Yes nature is a balance between nurturing and caring on one side of the condition, and aggression and dominance on the other.

There are both aspects to every give and take aspect of life as you yourself pointed out in life is fair, every action is reciprocal to equal and opposite reaction, and aggression begets aggression, and love and compassion begets the same.

However my take is still the same, life began with the big bang (so they say) from a position prior to material existence. The fundamental driving force, energy field, source of life, is not hereditary from a bottom up evolutionary position, but from a top down involutionary direction.

[Ahimsa]

I believe that even the modern theoretical scientists and quantum physicists are starting to ask these exact same questions.

'reality' seems to be the buzz word everyone is laying claim to knowing and embracing.

I beg to differ. In my view the so called 'reality' the materialistic so called 'non conscious science' of today holds in high esteem is in fact illusion as is already established by latest quantum physics.

Beyond the quark and inside the neutron there are energetic fields of activity similar to the power and equilibrium forces within nature unrecognizable to material parameters and apparatus. Yet they are inching closer to recognizing that before the big bang something, some power, some intelligent conscious 'reality' existed before or beyond this one.

I reckon the ancients knew a whole lot more than the modern hacks of physical particle science.

[Ahimsa]

Anyway thanks for the soap box

I'll bow out and back off gracefully at this point.

[Ahimsa]

It would be fitting for you to at least publish the rest of the dialog for other readers to make their own judgment and opinions.

I hope you will at least afford them an open source of information and let them apply their own level of 'critical thinking' in consideration of all the positions in such, I assumed it was, an 'open debate'.

[Georgy Porgy]

Yep interesting stuff:

Are humans the cruelest of animals - I’m not so sure.

Do humans have the widest range of emotions (from love to hate) - yep I think so.

Did consciousness or matter come first?

Evolution suggests to me that consciousness developed out of bigger animals with bigger brains , but then again why should there be a law of evolution in the first place? Why should there be any scientific laws at all?

If it was all just random - there should be nothing - no laws or order of any kind. Statistically, surely a random state or a state of nothing at all is far more likely than an ordered universe that obeys laws - god does not play dice.

[Spence Tepper]

Humans are absolutely the most vicious murderers on the planet. They're is no question about it.
No animal murders on the scale of humanity, a lovely pseudonym.

No animals murder code recreation.

We look to the animal kingdom for examples of cruelty. But it is humanity who are the true beasts.

We are under threat of extinction because of the insanity of human beings.

And few of us can escape. The system of slavery, murder and warfare is commoditized into our very economy, so that a portion of nearly every dollar or rupee or euro you spend funds violence on a level unprecedented and completely detached from any need for survival.

The whole history of Pakistan and India is but one terrible example. And the history of the United States, with the total annihialation of the native Americans, another.

The scale is practically beyond measurement, and makes the cruelty of all other species combined infinitesimal.

Human Consciousness and human conscience are oxymorons.

Then to claim there are pure and perfect souls among humans is the height of ego, and entirely false.

From the perspective of Karma, It is only humans who create Karma. Whatever you think of animals, they were molded by human actions.

[Spence Tepper]

And while we're on the subject of the wheel of 84 and Karma theory, let's dispel a few other erroneous notions that some RSSB fanatics have completely wrong. Falling to the bottom of the wheel happens entirely in the human form. All other forms are natural pathways back. And not by choice. But by the natural and harsh teachers of life. Every form, even the ugliest cancer cells, have a higher morality than human beings. They have no choice but to do their duty.

Souls came here incorporeal, wandering ignorantly from the source, and through their actions created all the lower forms of life, one selfish act at a time. God had little to do with it.

But blaming God, attributing this to God was just another sinful human act.

Being proud that you have found a perfect Master is just another way back to the bottom. Indeed it is one of the fastest, for with every grain of perfection you attribute to the Master, you deny to your fellow non - Satsangi human beings that much compassion and brotherhood. With every principle of truth you cling to, another moment of listening, and learning is lost.

The very belief that you gain spiritual wealth by your kindness and seva destroys that natural flow of kindness and places a pricetag upon it, that you sell your own soul to buy back at a price you can no longer afford. Religion commoditizes kindness, as if the sky could be put into your own bank account. In truth it destroys that natural wealth of compassion.

So if you have a "perfect Master" thinking you've found the fountain of youth and will live forever, and can proudly state so, you fool no one but yourself and the other self centered fools in your religious caste/ club.

[Jesse]

"It rather seems that universal human values have been appropriated by various religions"

What are these universal human values? Having spent a lot of time with people from all over the world, I'd have to say that I've never seen any culture agree on values at all. Simple things like whether or not it's ok to lie to or not to get what you want vary between cultures greatly.

[Jesse]

"No animal murders on the scale of humanity"

Because they can't. The cats in my town killed so many birds that there was talk of banning outdoor cats for a while. Often times they weren't killing for food, but for fun it seemed. My friend's cat would kill birds and mice and just leave them there without eating a single bite.

If house cats were able, they'd probably destroy the whole world just like mankind.

[Georgy Porgy]

Animals can be just as cruel and vicious.
Sure you can pick a bonobo, but you can also pick a chimpanzee, who go out on marauding raids to tear apart other animals.

You may love Fido or your pet hamster, but go into the wild and see how cuddly a tiger or alligator is. They got no qualms in ripping in half a harmless child, cub or buck while it’s alive despite it being petrified in fear with no defenses. In fact, they target the weak and disabled, it’s not fair, it’s nature in its purest unforgiving state.

Same for humans, make them desperate and starving and wild - then see how much morals they got. you get some human cultures where violence is worshipped and others where it’s aborhed. A Buddhist won’t trod on an ant, but a cannibal will happily eat out the head of his bestie. Mother Teresa and Charles Manson are both humans (albeit the latter ain’t deserving of that name).

Seems to me the capacity for devotion or love (to a guru or another being whether it’s misplaced or not), is overwhelmingly most strongly a human activity, it’s not even close, and it’s arguably the highest form of nature or human activity that any being could aspire to. What could be more noble? Why would you knock that down?

[Ahimsa]

Seems some here abhor the fact that they're born human (this time). Then they go on some wildly erroneous rant about how terrible it is to be a human. Or it's just as erroneously arrogant to aspire to be a better human.

Yet if you'd give them the opportunity to swap places with their most faithful most loving pet, either their darling devoted German shepherd or border collie or pit bull, you think they'd willingly do the swap? Take them out of their human body or human condition and put them into a bear or lion or tarantula body and then see how happy they'll be.

The condition we're in is the condition we're most comfortable with it suits our current state of being. Ultimately the question is wtf is it all about, what for all this coming and going and all this relentlessly unceasing struggle for survival and (unfair) unfathomable suffering?

[La Madrugada]

@Spence Tepper
From the perspective of Karma, It is only humans who create Karma.

Spence,

This is a concept, it is something that YOU believe

[s*]

Let's be honest,this is not an only pleasant place here to be..
We all will die..
Lots of people have illnesses..
There are wars all the time..
Hurricans, water disasters..dryness..more and more..
And then the cruwelness in living beings all over the place..
We will always defend our near and dear ones..including ourselves if nessesary.
So..what is this creation??Why is it and what for??
I want believe in Love..,because we need it..
Everybody wants love I think..but can we BE love??
I do not know..
I think every'' body'' has a spark of love inside..
I hope so..

Posted by: s* |

[Spence Tepper]

Hi Madrugada
You wrote
"@Spence Tepper
From the perspective of Karma, It is only humans who create Karma.

Spence,

This is a concept, it is something that YOU believe"

Yes exactly! It's from the Karmic view... That system of belief to which I think has merit.

[Spence Tepper]

Hi Jesse
You quoted me
"No animal murders on the scale of humanity"

And then wrote
"Because they can't."

That's very insulting to the whole animal queendom!
Just because a few cats make a gameof dismembering a bird here or their with their leisure time now you indict all cats!

They brought those birds as sacred holy offerings to their owners.

You may accuse them of some cruelty, entirely part of their survival nature, but keep in mind their generosity!

On behalf of those of feline persuasion I take the greatest exception!

[Spence Tepper]

Hi Ahimsa
You wrote
"Yet if you'd give them the opportunity to swap places with their most faithful most loving pet, either their darling devoted German shepherd or border collie or pit bull, you think they'd willingly do the swap? Take them out of their human body or human condition and put them into a bear or lion or tarantula body and then see how happy they'll be."

They will be b just as happy. A worm loves being a worm, making its way in the darkness; a pig loves being a pig, rolling in the mud and asserting its desires; and a Satsangi loves being a Satsangi, arguing over which illusion is best... But put any in the other's life, and the past, however glorious, is entirely forgotten.

[Spence Tepper]

And further Ahimsa,
If you offer humanity to a pig, they will refuse to leave their pig life ; offer the summit to a worm and they will recoil into their mud; and offer truth to a Satsangi and they will euoligize the superiority of ignorance.

[Spence Tepper]

Georgy, you wrote
"Seems to me the capacity for devotion or love (to a guru or another being whether it’s misplaced or not), is overwhelmingly most strongly a human activity, it’s not even close,"

Clearly you have not met a good German Shephard. Their emphatuation, loyalty and complete, enthusiastic and singular devotion has no parallel among humans. There is no comparison to the purity and self - sacrifice found in the animal kingdom. Elephants have far more forgiveness and compassion.

Humans' only superior quality is their intelligence. But just enough to cause worlds of trouble, to really screw things up on an appalling, even cosmic scale.

[Dungeness]

The cats in my town killed so many birds that there was talk of banning outdoor cats for a while.
If house cats were able, they'd probably destroy the whole world just like mankind.

No, no, no. Cats love people... do you realize they were once
worshipped for their wisdom.

One probably just saw its "human" get scared watching a re-run of
Alfred Hitchcock's "The Birds". It spread the word and a herd of 'em
met one night in the alley to consider what to do.

They decided on a preemptive strike to save mankind.

[Mike]

Morality is an aspect of Dharma which is inborn in all human beings. It can be nurtured, ignored or despised.

IF there is a God separate from nature and ourselves ( Purusha or Buddha), will it manifest in a subject/object relationship?

Respect, compassion and clarity provides a base of a sane life that is essential for the introspection of being.

Mike

[George Porgy]

German Shepherd, we had several, also Belgium Shepherds, like any dog is programmed to follow the alpha leader - the human. The stronger the leader the happier they are to follow. It’s not love - it’s pack instinct.

In fact the best dog trainers ain’t the softly softly ones - I remember a Scotsman dog trainer we knew who used to kick the crap out of a badly behaved dog if he was attacking other smaller dogs - it made the owners v uncomfortable but I tell you those dogs were obedient as all hell by the end of the week, and their owners were able to control them.

Look at Caeser, the wee Mexican Dog whisperer on NatGeo, he doesn’t fawn all over the dog and blow cushy mushy lovey dovey kisses up its biscuit hole, no he grabs the bugger firmly and shows him who is boss.

That’s not love - it’s pack instinct. They piss themselves to please the leader. Biological programming - just as a male might find a female sexy - not a gdam thing you can do about it.

[Georgy Porgy]

Closest to human love is probably whales, elephants and dolphins.

But even then it comes nothing near to selfless love of humans. Some humans capable of more love than others.

Saw a program other day, baby elephant gets separated from herd, but mother and others don’t attack lions - their fear overpowers their DNA nurturing instinct. They could easily scare the lions off.

Compare that to a human mother - many would fly in to protect their child despite knowing full well 99% sure that they will both get killed. The elephant mother often won’t do it even if has 99% chance of both it and it’s child living.

The Human emotion of love overcoming every single bit of biological programming of self-preservation. That’s love.

[Spence Tepper]

Hi Georgy
You wrote
"German Shepherd, we had several, also Belgium Shepherds, like any dog is programmed to follow the alpha leader - the human. The stronger the leader the happier they are to follow. It’s not love - it’s pack instinct."

Yes, just like Satsangis.

This is largely your projection Georgy, idolizing the powerful and rich.

You never knew a Shepherd.

As for animals sacrificing themselves, they give everthing. The mother spider sacrifices herself to be the food for her children.

https://www.sciencenews.org/blog/wild-things/animal-moms-sacrifice-lot-%E2%80%94-sometimes-even-themselves

[Spence Tepper]

Have you ever watched a dog with handicapped infants?
They never demand obedience. They never show anything but overwhelming compassion.

They do not judge, they do not reject.

Have you ever watched a big dog with a small one?

They push themselves flat into the floor down to the level of the little dog. They roll over on their belly to show they only want to play.

Georgy it is only humans who Lord over people, enslave people, reject people on such a nationwide, caste wise basis.

No, you never knew a dog, locked into your ethnocentric, anthrocentric thinking.

[Spence Tepper]

Just a typical Satsangi I guess.

[Spence Tepper]

Georgy you are right about one thing. Bad Animal trainers are often cruel. The best trainers work with boundaries and respect. They treat the animal as a person. They rarely use force.

Really, you need to go to the pound and rescue a dog.

Your ideas about love are quite narrow.

Love made this creation. It is part and parcel of all beings.

[Spence Tepper]

Let a rescue dog be your next and better Guru. They know the one thing most people don't, unconditional love.

[Jen]

Spence you are all over the place, first you say: "From the perspective of Karma, It is only humans who create Karma. Whatever you think of animals, they were molded by human actions." ...

You also say: "Yes exactly! It's from the Karmic view... That system of belief to which I think has merit."

Satsangis do not have this belief - that only humans create karma.

You say: "Let a rescue dog be your next and better Guru. They know the one thing most people don't, unconditional love."

Why so much anger against the guru. I am an ex-satsangi and it doesn't matter to me what other people are doing. Maybe you never were a satsangi. Well, not from the Beas line anyway.

From 'Spiritual Gems' - extracts from the letters of Huzur Maharaj Sawan Singh Ji, para 184: "Plants and animals have individual souls, like men, and these souls may be born as humans in course of time or even in the next incarnation, owing to the special grace of a perfect Master. And a human soul may be incarnated in the body of an animal or a plant."

[Georgy Porgy]

Dry your eyes Spence. I dunno what reality you living in - la la land or something.

You missing the point cos you a wuss. I personally don’t think dogs (or any animals) should be abused, but they are in the wild and dogs are programmed to respond to certain behaviors. An unruly dog, who is just molly coddled by some ephete owner, will just walk all over that owner and anyone else. They don’t love that owner, they depend on that owner for food. But these dogs quickly respond to someone who handles them firmly and in line with their nature.

Dogs, like all animals, are tough. Wild animals are even tougher than domesticated furballs . Over educated humans from a molly cuddled western background try project their own anthropomorphic ideas on their animals, God’s and everyone else - rather than just accepting and seeing nature for what it fundamentally is - wild, unforgiving, cruel and also beautiful.

[Georgy Porgy]

The dog with maybe the nicest most placid peaceful nature is a Labrador.

Lovely animal. Would be useless as tits on a bull in the wild. Domesticated by humans over centuries with selective breeding to fit perfectly into domesticated family households so that old Larry the lab doesn’t decide to take a bite out of 3 year old Timmy who smashes his train into poor Larry’s nose.

[Jesse]

"Satsangis do not have this belief - that only humans create karma. "

Jen, I don't know what satsangis believe, but Charan Singh said it a number of times that only humans create karma. I no longer have any RS books, but you can find it if you want to look through all the crap he wrote. He said that animals and others don't create any new karma but only pay or receive benefits for previous actions of their human incarnations.

[Jesse]

"Have you ever watched a dog with handicapped infants?
They never demand obedience. They never show anything but overwhelming compassion.

They do not judge, they do not reject."

Dogs might not judge little kids, but they do rip off their faces and kill them.

https://www.fatalpitbullattacks.com/children-killed-by-pit-bulls.php

[Georgy Porgy]

Yip it’s a big problem with little kids - you taking a risk with big dogs and small infants - they are not human and don’t live by your human moral rules.

I believe nearly half of all kids under 9 have been bitten by a dog. Virtually any infant who brings its face near a large dog is potentially an accident waiting to happen.

Pooches are great but you away with the fairies, and know nothing about shepherds or wild animals - so I’m skeptical about your guru assessing credentials

[Jen]

Hi Jesse,

I also only have a few RS books now so did a quick search on Google and found this on Spiritual Link.

https://www.rssb.org/2013-11-04.html

"All living creatures have to face the consequences of both good and bad actions to keep on balancing their account - impact for impact, positive and negative. In this way the law of karma keeps souls trapped in the creation, like in a prison, as souls go from suffering to happiness again and again, perpetually, since there are always accounts of give and take outstanding at the end of each life."

[George Porgy]

In the beginning, there was nothing (unless god/universe is eternal)

Then the bang (14B years ago)
Then fundamental particles
Then suns
Then atomic particles and molecules
Then living organisms
Then planets
Then wild plants
Then wild animals
Then wild humans

Then civilization (supposedly)
where humans domesticated themselves, plants and animals (10k BC)

Then philosophy
Then cities
Then universities

And we only know all this in the last 200 years (modern science) - a droplet in an ocean of time. Even scientifically, there are massive gaps in our knowledge. It’s obvious that we know nothing. Science is just touching the surface of something almost certainly unfathomable to the human intellect.

But intellect is not what truly differentiates us. Having a superior brain is just a physical evolutionary trait like having strong muscles - just so happens having the strongest brain puts us top of the food chain cos we can create tools that compensate for us being inferior to animals in most other respects.

You wouldn’t refer to someone as humane cos they have a steam-engine intellect. Those with the highest intellects (IQ) often have the lowest empathetic abilities (EQ) - eg, nerds, on the autistic spectrum, aspergers.

Nope what makes someone humane is if they capable of great love and kindness - saints - a selfless being who tries to alleviate the suffering of others.

[Jesse]

"have to face the consequences"

I don't know which book, but this idea is expounded on by Charan Singh somewhere. Facing consequences, settling accounts is not creating karma. It's paying for karma already built up, according to the books. It's related to the idea of active karma and stored karma, which I don't remember the names of. It wouldn't surprise me if they contradicted themselves in the books and said one place that animals create karma, and in another place that animals don't create karma.

[Spence Tepper]

Hi Jen
You wrote
"Satsangis do not have this belief - that only humans create karma."
I'm sorry Jen but you are mistaken.

The animals suffer the accounts created while in the human form.

And those lives are always to remodel and rehabilitate.

No Karmas are earned except in the human form.

You may ask Baba Ji directly to confirm this.

My Master is Charan Singh. I'm a little surprised you didn't his remarks on this.

[Mike]

Technically (Yogic teachings) lower animals do not have the intellectual capacity to make decisions like human beings do. By not making decisions, bad or good, lower animals do not create new karma. This theory has to do with five Tattvas or elements and claim that the "Ether Tattva" or element, corresponding to the intellect, is active in mankind and rather dormant in lower animals.

Mike

[Spence Tepper]

Pit bulls trained to attack others reflect their cruel owners.

Once again the fault points right back up to humans.

Obviously you have never seen dogs who were not trained to be evil and how loving they are of children.

Your argument that they only honor authority is untrue, unless trained that way by bad owners.

[Georgy Porgy]

I didn’t say they only honour authority - those are your words. I didn’t even mention pitbulls. I’m not talking about dogs bred for fighting by fkwits

I’m saying that your dog doesn’t love you a tenth as much as your mama ever would. I’m saying dogs are driven Biological instincts not emotional love. Dogs cannot give and experience love anywhere like the extent of humans - only an idiot would think that.

I’m wondering how humane you actually are. You seem to get weak at the knees for your furball friends but have no issues hurling abuse at a guru whose raison d’etre is love.

You bang on about dogs not judging, yet this is precisely what you do. Wakey wakey

[Spence Tepper]

Georgy,
You wrote
"You bang on about dogs not judging, yet this is precisely what you do. Wakey wakey"

Duhhh! Hello! I'm a human, remember,?
One of those slobs just like you who are trashing planet earth and all life, while claiming to be wise and loving.

A lover of a 'perfect' Guru who lives on fraud.

A guru who takes more than he has given, expects more from others than he does from himself.

Yah, you and I have a lot to be proud of.

Well, we got the Gurus we deserved.

But now I think back to the loving, adorable and adoring dogs I've known, and how lovingly they treated my son, and all I can say is, they were true examples of pure love.

A dog is always willing to run farther than you are. Their highest happiness is seeing you happy.

A good dog is a better Guru than any human being could be.

What a terrible sign of poor judgment that the RSSB Gurus never pointed this out. Of course comparing a good dog to the RSSB Guru is unfair. No Guru could shower love upon you like a good dog. The Guru is human, so they are always out for themselves. They can't help it. Selfishness and flawed character are part of human nature.

I guess you could say Gurinder is perfect in the sense that his selfishness is so complete it's perfect. His flaws are perfect flaws that perfectly reflect the selfishness of the human race. So it is no hypocrisy to say so, as long I don't pretend to be asnoble and loving as a good dog.

No Guru can compete with a good dog.

[Jen]

From Mike: "By not making decisions, bad or good, lower animals do not create new karma." (Yogic teachings)

This is not about Yogic teachings its about what we are taught by Sant Mat Masters:

https://www.rssb.org/essential2.html

"As Maharaj Charan Singh puts it:

Our karma [actions] can take us down to a lower species and our karma can also bring us back to the human form. It depends upon our attachments, our desires and cravings which we have not been able to fulfil or sublimate during the life span, the seeds which we have sown and have to come back to reap the fruit thereof. All this determines where we have to go.... It hardly makes any difference whether we die young or old. Our karma, our desires and our attachments determine where we have to go as well as the span of that life and whether to a lower species or whether to come back to the human form."

[Mike England]

I’m more of a cat person
🐈

[Mike]

"This is not about Yogic teachings its about what we are taught by Sant Mat Masters"

Jen,

The reason that Sant Mat teaches that animals do not create karma is exactly due to the Yogic teaching of Tattvas that was already mentioned. What Charan Singh said does not contradict this.
It is a teaching that is common to all yogas. Realizing and understanding the yogic process cleanses the mind of superstition and beliefs, while bringing into focus the principles of the Yogic Science, which is subtle and applicable to Shabda Yoga. Sant Mat is not apart from this.

Mike

[Dungeness]

I’m more of a cat person.

Cats are superior in so many ways. Just look at language.

Cats:

cat-quick
cuddly as a cat
cute as a kitten
soft as a kitten
purr with delight
the cat's meow!
clean as cat
the cat's pajamas!
the cat's whiskers!

Dogs:

dirty dog
dog tired
smell like a dog
look like a dog
snarl like a dog
bark like a dog
what a dog!
junkyard dog!
doggy breath
pant like a dog
eat like a dog
fight like dogs
my dogs are killing me!

[zenjen]

Animals in Buddhism (from Wikipedia)

Animals have always been regarded in Buddhist thought as sentient beings. Furthermore, animals possess Buddha nature (according to the Mahayana school) and therefore potential for enlightenment. Moreover, the doctrine of rebirth held that any human could be reborn as animal, and any animal could be reborn as a human. An animal might be a reborn dead relative, and anybody who looked far enough back through their series of lives might come to believe every animal to be a distant relative. The Buddha expounded that sentient beings currently living in the animal realm have been our mothers, brothers, sisters, fathers, children, friends in past rebirths. One could not, therefore, make a hard distinction between moral rules applicable to animals and those applicable to humans; ultimately humans and animals were part of a single family. They are all interconnected.

[Sonya]

Oh Jen...

You could learn a thing or two from Lucifer—Hell is of our own making. It only exists if we believe in it. And he would know... 😈

[Jesse]

"Pit bulls trained to attack others reflect their cruel owners."

Absolute nonsense.

Do you think only brains and all the character traits that come from brains are somehow magical things that are immune to genetic inheritance? Pitbulls have been bred to be violent for at least a century. It's genes that makes them attack.

Just like the dual allele maoa "warrior genes" that are found in the vast majority of repeat violent offender humans, so too is there a genetic reason for why certain dogs, even when living with super chill suburban families, rip kids faces off.

[Jesse]

"Realizing and understanding the yogic process cleanses the mind of superstition and beliefs"

Lol what? Yoga is both a superstition and a belief founded on nothing more than a long lineage of "holy men" making 100% unverified and unverifiable claims which at this point have multiplied into the thousands. Sant mat is just a mishmash which seemingly came from a randomly selected set of yogic beliefs and superstitions seeing as how none of it lines up with the whole karma thing plus the need for a man to save you because you can't overcome karma.

Saying yoga cleanses one of superstition is akin to claiming bathing in the sewer cleanses one of sewage on the body.

[Jen]

I give up, lol. Cat people, Mike & Spence who have the answers to absolutely everything! Sonya encouraging me to learn from Lucifer?! I do think about death quite a lot because of ageing. Maybe atheists are right and when we're dead thats it, then this life has all been a waste of time and energy really.

Cheers to all you lovely people, wishing you luck in your next birth, if there is such, maybe we will meet up again, don't know about Brian, do atheists have their own heaven... joking!

[Spence Tepper]

Hi Jen

Here are my thoughts about what you wrote and Karma.

You cited Maharaji
"As Maharaj Charan Singh puts it:

Our karma [actions] can take us down to a lower species and our karma can also bring us back to the human form. It depends upon our attachments, our desires and cravings which we have not been able to fulfil or sublimate during the life span, the seeds which we have sown and have to come back to reap the fruit thereof. All this determines where we have to go.... It hardly makes any difference whether we die young or old. Our karma, our desires and our attachments determine where we have to go as well as the span of that life and whether to a lower species or whether to come back to the human form."

First please disregard the interpolated [actions] which is not what Maharaji said. That only obscures His teaching.

Please read this carefully.
" Our karma can take us down to a lower species and our Karma can also bring us back up to the human form."

It is our existing karma that brings us up, not the actions while in the animal forms. However, impressions made in the human form can and usually do take us back down. We've all been through these cycles since the dawn of time.

Another misunderstanding about Karma is that only physical actions count. That is false. Impressions alone count. Jesus said that a man who lust in his heart has already committed adultery.

It's the impressions we make on our "mind" or are impressed upon us by our environment, or by what we attend to that creates karma. As soon as those impressions are worn away, or erased, we are free.

"It depends upon our attachments, our desires and cravings which we have not been able to fulfil or sublimate during the life span," those are the conditioning and impressions we carry, not our actions, which are downstream and result from those impressions. But as those actions affect others we incur the impressions of those results. Karma can be created by things that create strong impressions, our environment, even if we aren't taking any action at all. Of course our actions are automatically resultant from our impressions and the cravings and desires of those impressions. But not immediately. Hence, the blueprint for the lives to come.

What brings animals back into human form is Karma created before in the human form. This determines not only our next life but the ones after, and when we are to come back up.

It's a wheel Jen so we are pre-wired to return to the human form again and again automatically... Ground hog day. But the length of that cycle, how many thousands of forms we will go through, is all determined by the new impressions we lay down while in the human form at the top.

Nowhere will you find Maharaji or any Sant Mat literature claim that the actions of an animal can bring them back to the human species. But their existing karma does that (specifically their sinchit created in the past, ie, as a human) after they've worked off Pralabdh in that life, under the influences of their environment.

Sometimes a loving human being helps an animal to work through that debt more rapidly. But that is also predetermined.

Animals, plants and all other forms of life make no karma, but they do work off debts. So they are not earning their way back to buy a new human form. They are paying off their gambling debts to return to their own property, or to buy back what they pawned. The human form is already part of their wardrobe.

A slave has no freedom and no money to spend. But they work off their debts which led to their enslavement. As a slave they have no freedom at all. They save no money at all. They are just paying debts.

The spending "money" here is the attention. But being creatures of compulsion and reactivity animals don't have any capacity for this kind of "attention"... Only humans have that. And generally it gets us into trouble. This is the attention that creates impressions in time and space, in our fields of energy called "persons" or "souls", but we are all actually ripples of the same larger field. Our attention is the key to realizing it. There are no actual individuals. This other anthropomorphized language is just a way to explain. Solid meditation practice, and Master's leadership will let you see all this for yourself. Then you can use whatever language better suits you.

Still, a good dog, by nature, has more to teach humans about love, loyalty, acceptance, forgiveness and gentleness than any Guru who has ever lived. The language of the dog is visible, immediate and universal.

Yes, they are by far the true teachers of what it means to be true.

[Georgy Porgy]

What do you mean ‘Duhh, hello’?

That’s Duhhh, hypocracy.

Are you saying we should just ignore what you are typing, because it’s bullshit?

I know this already.

Sounds like you got a problem with humans - if you want an award for that, and loving doggies instead, you not getting it from me.

Hitler loved dogs, shepherds I believe - what a humanitarian he turned out to be.

[Georgy Porgy]

Am I reading right, a non-guru slob is setting everyone to rights on the law of karma, while abusing the perfected gurus who teach it?

Cuckooo cuckooo - ding dong - back to the twilight zone - madness.

[Georgy Porgy]

If God had a name what would it be?
And would you call it to his face?
If you were faced with Him in all His glory
What would you ask if you had just one question?

So go on non-guru slob , have you asked him to his face your burning questions or you just gonna judge?

[Jesse]

Spence, you summarized the sant mat stance on reincarnation well enough, but do you actually believe in it? Or do you think we're just apes who similarly define our modes of acting on self interests and emotions as "morality" and "ethics?" I think we're apes, personally.

[Jen]

Gee thank you Spence for your lecture on karma and that you feel free to take the word [actions] from the quote supposedly from the Master, Maharaj Charan Singh.

Of course we can't totally believe everything we read but seeing as I was initiated over 50 years ago, I think I do understand Sant Mat and its not necessary for me to endure your preachy dictatorial comments.

[Dungeness]

Still, a good dog, by nature, has more to teach humans about love, loyalty, acceptance, forgiveness and gentleness than any Guru who has ever lived. The language of the dog is visible, immediate and universal.

OMG... is this inspirational tribute to a good dog from that same line of "Old Testament"
masters (O.T.'s) who thunder from the mountain: "GSD, pay your bills"? Those same O.T.
Masters whose inner vision reveals guilt faster than a speeding bullet.

And, if you're still not convinced, don't forget the blog's litany of tabloid "facts". It cinches
the verdict. Don't you dare forget that if you love the Truth!

Besides, did you miss O.T's travelogue about soaring to the upper regions? He knows the
Divine Will. He smites the unrighteous, decrees guilt and innocence with an instant
glance to the heavens within. Why wait for the courts?

But to those lost souls who, having eyes see not the "wolf in sheep's clothing", who stand
apart from us in shaming him to confess, to repent; to those who cavil about giving fair
treatment; to those deluded ones who insist on the slow, deliberative actions of the court,
please, I beg you, see the error of your ways before it's too late.

Pray for forgiveness. Join us. Otherwise, your souI is damned unto eternity or at least a few
dog lives (maybe a cat or two if you're lucky). Repent. Else I, the O.T. Master, say your
rebuke is coming and right swift.

Forgive them, Father, they know the harm they do... just like the evil ones who stayed
silent in Germany in the time of that other no-goodnik. They are the infidels, the fallen
ones, the unbelievers, the ones in thrall to dark forces.

But wait, there's more. Forgiveness cometh like the rain for those unfortunates, for GSD
even, if only they'll see the Light. If GSD will confess humbly before his Lord and Master,
our O.T. Master will gladly, tearfully, welcome Him back with open arms. .

Then the heavens will open. Our Savior will be redeemed, washed in the blood of the
lamb. Gather round, oh children. Let us rejoice. Feast on the wisdom of our O.T. Master.
Did someone cue the harps.

Of course, In the fullness of time, it may just be that GSD will need to abdicate. But
fear not, faithful flock. An O.T. Master --steeped in righteousness and duly anointed--
will ascend. Halleujah, He/She is risen.

[Sonya]

Georgy Porgy,

Don’t ruin one of my favorite songs..

You’re wasting your time defending a guru who not only doesn’t care what anyone thinks of him but doesn’t care about most people. He only cares about those who are immediately beneficial to him. Trust me, I know.

[Sonya]

At one time I trusted Gurinder more than anyone I had ever trusted in my life just as Brian did when he was one of his bodyguards willing to take a bullet for him. Soon you will learn he wouldn’t do the same for you. And that’s the day of reckoning...

[Sonya]

Gurinder doesn’t know the true meaning of love. He doesn’t how to love because he never had the chance. And all of his own making... but one day he’ll learn. We all do... one day.

https://youtu.be/qVy4w6vq8y8

[Mike]

"Realizing and understanding the yogic process cleanses the mind of superstition and beliefs"

"Lol what? Yoga is both a superstition and a belief founded on nothing more than a long lineage of "holy men" making 100% unverified and unverifiable claims which at this point have multiplied into the thousands. Sant mat is just a mishmash which seemingly came from a randomly selected set of yogic beliefs and superstitions seeing as how none of it lines up with the whole karma thing plus the need for a man to save you because you can't overcome karma.

Saying yoga cleanses one of superstition is akin to claiming bathing in the sewer cleanses one of sewage on the body."

Jesse,

What is Yoga?

Yoga is a journey from mind to no mind. Patanjali when describing Yoga said that Yoga is the nullification of the modifications of the mind. There is no room for superstition or beliefs. It is also described as Turiya, the fourth state of consciousness where the mind is at rest and the intellect stilled.

You will find no superstition in Samkhya or Yogic philosophy. You will find a description of what happens when one descends from unbounded awareness or Purusha to the body bound Jiva. There is no God just SELF, the non dual awareness, free from delusion of a false identity.

kind regards,

Mike

[Sonya]

“...a creature as much of passion as of intellect.”

I agree wholeheartedly. While I believe my dear sweet Rottweiler, Marshall, to be as evolved in a loving capacity as any human I’ve ever met, I still believe “We” as humans belong to the “night”. We haven’t fully evolved to the state of loving (not blind) devotion that a well cared for animal has for its “Master”. Primarily because there are so few deserving “Masters of humans”... if any at all.

This throwback song reminds me of how stupidly desperate humans are in their search for love. In a sense, we’re all so desperate for love that we’ll make up stories to convince ourselves it’s true. Do I sound jaded?

https://youtu.be/qxZInIyOBXk

[Jesse]

"no mind" "nullification of the modifications of the mind" "descends from unbounded awareness or Purusha to the body bound Jiva" "no God just SELF, the non dual awareness, free from delusion of a false identity."

aka a shit ton of superstitions and beliefs about unprovable hypotheses concerning states and experiences that are only had by mythological characters in books.

You're just listing jargon that you've read, Mike. None of what you're saying has anything to do with reality.

[Sonya]

I don’t belong to the “light”... not unless it’s hellfire. I’m at peace with my sins. Go ahead and judge...

[Georgy Porgy]

Sonya

I believe that is Spence’s song. I’m trying to speak his language cos I think he may be from a planet far far far away in a different solar system, and not one of us.

I don’t know the guru, I’ve not been initiated into rssb, I don’t know anything about karma and I dig dogs and cats - but seems to me like the ‘Hang-em High Club’ are quick to judge without tolerating any contrasting viewpoints.

So much for objective rationale truth-seeking.

[Spence Tepper]

Hi Jen and Georgy!

I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree.
After all, as Maharaji said, "does anyone ever think they are wrong?"

Actually Georgy, that you think so highly of human beings is admirable.

But what we are in potential, we are not in actual.

Jen, whether animals incur Karma or not can hardly matter at our level. Opinions can be no excuse for everyone's own responsibility to live a helpful life, a clean morale life, avoiding hurting anyone else's feelings unnecessarily, and paying our debts happily, openly and honestly.

Yes I'm Preachy. This is a blog. We are all Preachy here.

[Spence Tepper]

Hi Jesse
You asked
"Spence, you summarized the sant mat stance on reincarnation well enough, but do you actually believe in it? Or do you think we're just apes who similarly define our modes of acting on self interests and emotions as "morality" and "ethics?" I think we're apes, personally."

My personal opinion is based on my subjective experience. Yes I've seen all this as transparent fields of energy, and we are just an energy signature in that field. Interactions are just interacting waves creating nodes that generate their own waves. Time is the breakdown of a whole into waves. So yes I believe in cause and effect, and the impressions that make our energy signature in our area of this huge field of energy. And I believe we are living, basically, through a pre-recording, that it has all been done. Time can only exist from a past, present and future. And when you can turn the play button to fast forward, reverse and pause in meditation, it's pretty clear the distinctions between the present, the past and the future are just the result of forcing a multidimensional reality to balance along the single dimension of movement and time, and that in fact this single moment, the only one we can experience, isn't even in a single dimension. We must use the brain to put so many pieces together to form our perceptual "now". I see that as extremely artificial.

And therefore the movie was already made, all as a single expression outside of time.

So watching one event naturally movr into another creates the impression that these individual events are not causes, but just effects, and we are all living in the past.

The brain, seeing distinct objects as solid objects, seeing people as separate personalities and bodies, seems to me to be a perceptual function necessary to function as biological creatures, psychological creatures. But I don't think we are these bodies or brains, just as I don't think a rock is actually solid matter.

These are just qualities as they appear.

I think you can understand from the above how completely subjective this view is. I wouldn't even raise it to the status of an opinion.

[Mike England]

Dear Dungeness
Good points re cats v dogs.
Dr Funk says:
Why must I feel like that
Why must I chase the cat
It’s nuffin but the dawg in me

Nuffin but the dawg

That should end this mighty debate
🐶 🐱

[Mike]

"no mind" "nullification of the modifications of the mind" "descends from unbounded awareness or Purusha to the body bound Jiva" "no God just SELF, the non dual awareness, free from delusion of a false identity."

aka a shit ton of superstitions and beliefs about unprovable hypotheses concerning states and experiences that are only had by mythological characters in books.

You're just listing jargon that you've read, Mike. None of what you're saying has anything to do with reality."

Jesse,

No you are quite wrong. It is all provable, but it is a subtle science dealing with causality. It is difficult to penetrate though, being beyond the mind including the experience of superstition and myth. Experiencing Samadhi and returning to everyday life, eventually reveals the truth of Samkhya. Doing it only once shows the truth of it, repeated practice allows a deepening understanding, as the mind eventually becomes clearer and clearer.

It began happening to me in 1965, at the age of 16, before I had ever knew or read anything about Yoga.

I do not mind sharing, or entering into conversations based on my own realizations, but am not interested in trying to convince anyone of anything, so I think there is no need to continue this conversation.

Wish you the best.

Kind regards Jesse.

Mike

[Dungeness]

Why must I chase the cat
It’s nuffin but the dawg in me

Good one, Mike :)

With apologies to Dr. Funk,
...
Twas only a catastrophe
Often happens like that
Rat-a-tat-tat. See ya, cat.

[Jesse]

Mike, you're insane. Why would you say any of those things as if they meant anything at all and also try to pass it off as some kind of scientific discovery?

"Yo man. I went surfing once and felt this euphoria that I call oneness. Therefore the advaita vedanta explanation for the origins of existence are obviously true and infallible!"

Sick stuff you're pawning off on us here.

[Mike England]

Dr Eugene Genetics leaflet categorically implies:

In ancient times, cats were worshipped as Gods. Nowadays, we have devolved downwards to actually believe that men, gurus, are Gods.

He further states:
I can see the argument for dogs replacing men as gurus, this is fantastic logic, akin to magical thinking. Nonetheless, valid and ethereally cognitive.
However, when all is said and done, Cats speak to us in this day and age using the language of the Holy. Eyes that have seen, will know what I mean.
I know this is an even bigger point of contention than Spence and David re Faqir Chand.
This tough Truth must be told though.

[Jen]

Hi Spence,

I really liked this comment of yours.

"So yes I believe in cause and effect, and the impressions that make our energy signature in our area of this huge field of energy. And I believe we are living, basically, through a pre-recording, that it has all been done."

Now this is interesting Spence, especially the pre-recording bit. I'd love to hear more of your take on this perspective. Because I live a quiet life now and like to observe myself as I go about my daily routines and often feel like I've been through this life before and its like a memory, strange feeling!

Like you say "And therefore the movie was already made, all as a single expression outside of time."

"We must use the brain to put so many pieces together to form our perceptual "now". I see that as extremely artificial.

And therefore the movie was already made, all as a single expression outside of time.

So watching one event naturally move into another creates the impression that these individual events are not causes, but just effects, and we are all living in the past."

Yep, I also don't think we are these bodies or brains. What are we? What term would you use, something like, spirit or soul, or consciousness and awareness?

[Dungeness]

So watching one event naturally move into another creates the impression that these individual events are not causes, but just effects, and we are all living in the past."

Hi Jen,

Just to share a past moment of confusion :) I could see memories as a replay of past
events that had already occurred. But what about events that seem to be streaming
into consciousness in real time... now, this second. Surely that's the future and it's yet to
happen, eh?

Ishwar Puri explains it beautifully. Say, you remembered stubbing your toe as you came
into the house. Past memory, clear cut, right? But say a nano-second before you recall
the stubbing, a memory implant told you "I just have this sickening feeling I'm gonna stub
my toe". Then it becomes more than a garden variety recall of stubbing your toe in the
past. The event is imbued with a kinda directionality. The mind slips in the impression of
fear that it's about to happen to make it all seem like a future instead of a past.
Clever trick, no?

But, if it's still confusing, it was bound to happen, I guess... hey, we got karma, baby :)

[Jen]

Hi Dungeness,

Talk about confusion. I've experienced some strange supernatural interactions and I realise that I can't really express my true self here on this blog. I'm far too 'way out there' in my thoughts and imagination.

I like Elon Musk's simulation theory but apparently that has been vigorously debunked so I just have to remind myself to simply enjoy my expansive consciousness without trying to share. My comments usually stop a thread here and I assume people are thinking What The!

Cheers bro :)

[Dungeness]

My comments usually stop a thread here and I assume people are thinking What The!

You too, Jen? Seems like some kinda blog curse, doesn't it... ;)

The gentle voices I hear keep saying "Buck up, 'Blog Busting' is a dirty
job... only the nutty make the grade." So I sez ""Is that supposed to
make me feel better?" Voice repeats with a sigh, "Recite the mantra,
the play will end soon. By the way, it was pre-recorded. Boy... you
been punking yourself from the git-go."

[Mike England]

Hey Jen Dungeness
Being last comment on a thread is cathartic. Iconoclastic and truly liberating.
I’ve done it a couple of times.
It is Heaven on Earth.
Peace breaks out.
🤩

[Georgy Porgy]

Moral rules are not self-serving, they are the opposite, i.e. they serve others (alleviate the suffering of others).

Aint this why RsSB principles are vegetarianism, non discrimination and free healthcare?

The ‘golden rule’ is at the heart of morality and many religions (perhaps the only good thing about religion) - treat others as you would want to be treated yourself. Animals don’t make or abide by such rules.

Last post? Wahoo..

[Spence Tepper]

Hi Jen
You asked
"Yep, I also don't think we are these bodies or brains. What are we? What term would you use, something like, spirit or soul, or consciousness and awareness?"

My completely subjective understanding is that we are temporal fluctuations of a vast pool of energy.

99% of our genes are identical to those of apes and chimpanzees.

Only 1% of the genetic code that makes a chimp a chimp is different.

99% identical......

And even more so to each other human beings.

All that makes us different is a nearly infinitesimal alteration in information..

And I believe all that makes one life different from another is an alteration in our energy signature, altered as it is by interaction with each other and the environment.

As for time, I believe the entire creation exists outside of time. It was baked as one whole cake, but we live it one slice at a time.

St Paul wrote that time was given to us, for our development. It's a very poetic idea to express something science may find one day more about.

[Mike England]

The Last Post
We here at the Church of the Churchless should have a special ceremony to commemorate the Last Post on a blog.
After the Last Post is done, we can add comments and praise to The Last Post-er.
Dr Eugene Genetics wrote a sentence about last posts, I can remember much about it, but he didn’t use capitals. Which is odd, really.

[Georgy Porgy]

Spence

I’d advise you to stop puffing on the peace pipe.

Temporal fluctuations of energy, alterations of energy signatures, baking cakes one slice at a time. My god what bullshit is this ?!

There’s nothing scientific about any of it. Total mindless drivel jibber jabber.

[Spence Tepper]

Hi Georgy
Yes it'just my subjective view.

One person's bullshit is another person's unicorn.

Once upon a time two wealthy parents went to visit one of the nation's top child psychologists.

They were concerned that they might have inadvertently spoiled their young boy, who never seemed satisfied no matter what they gave him. He always complained and seemed either angry or depressed much of the time. His school teacher also reached out to the parents for help, stating that he was becoming a problem for the other children as well.

The boy's parents loved him and wanted to help him in any way possible.

The child psychologist asked the parents to bring the boy to her lab at the university for observation.

When the parents arrived, the little boy was escorted into a room with a two way mirror and left alone.

In the room was every conceivable toy, computer game and gaming console, a small mountain of Legos, dozens of stuffed animals, play costumes, and a refrigerator stocked full with snacks and drinks.

In the course of an hour the boy had played with most of the toys, but still unsatisfied began to destroy everthing in the room. About half way through the psychologist walked into the room and asked the boy how things were going.

The boy replied. "This is bullshit!"

"Oh really?" asked the Psychologist, "Why do you say that?"

The boy shouted, "There isn't a pony here! I wanted a pony!"

.....

Weeks later, the child psychologist was working at a free clinic, as part of her monthly community service. A poor young couple had both taken time off from their minimum wage jobs concerned that their little girl was behaving abnormally. She had been born with a deformity that kept other children away. And now the parents were concerned it was affecting her emotional health.

She was always happy even when they had been living under tight circumstances and in a tough neighborhood. Every disappointment, every promise the parents had to break was always met with a smile from their little girl.

The Psychologist was intrigued and asked the parents to bring their daughter to the psychologist's home that Saturday.

When they arrived they saw that the psychologist had a large 12 foot high mound of fertilizer in her driveway, as part of her spring planting in the large gardens she loved on her side and back yards.

Immediately the little girl jumped onto the mound, climbed to the top and began digging deeper and deeper down into it with no regard for her pretty dress her parents had just bought for her.

When the child psychologist came to the door she saw the parents in distress. Where was their daughter?

The parents led the psychologist to her driveway.

The little girl had dug down so far she was invisible.

Only handfulls of fertilizer could be seen flying out of the hole she had dug.

The parents called out to her. The little girl stopped and climbed up, so that only her smiling face could be seen, cheeks, forehead and hair soiled, but a megawatt smile on her face.

The parents introduced their little girl. She and the psychologist exchanged hellos. The little girl then asked "Do you want me to come down now?"

"No no." The psychologist replied, "you seem to be having so much fun. Please continue."

And then she asked, "but I do have one question."

The little girl was beaming happiness as she waited for the psychologist's question.

Then the child psychologist asked, "I'm curious. Why are you digging around in all that dirt?"

Without missing a beat the little girl exclaimed, "with all this horseshit around I know there's a unicorn in here somewhere!" and she disappeared, singing, back into the tunnel she had been digging.

[Jen]

Thanks guys, enjoyed your comments...

Last post heh

[Georgy Porgy]

Thanks for the bedtime story.
Put me straight to sleep.
Blah blah blah.

No point in pretending what you are saying is a unicorn when its bullshit. Would you prefer me to lie?

I thought church of the churchless was all about calling bullshit when you see it, and not allowing ‘preachy’ posts. If so, such intolerance should be applied consistently. I don’t see your happy forgiving nature applied to rssb or the guru. Sounds like bullshit to me, so I call it - isn’t that fair?

[Spence Tepper]

Hi Georgy
It appears that you are calling bullshit on everyone but the Guru.

Are you a Satsangi?

Have you read any of the documents?

Or do you just like to play devil's advocate?

That's actually a great role.. It keeps us all double checking.

[Amar]

Lol, I love it when anyone asks Georgy if he's an RSSB hack, then he disappears for days. No answer.

For someone who claims not to know about RSSB or GSD, he sure has a definitive opinion about both. RSSB Hack.