Why a guru shouldn't give mental health advice

There are many reasons to be wary of gurus.

An overarching reason is that often, if not usually, devotees of a guru trust them way more than is justified -- since gurus obviously are human beings, flawed and imperfect like we all are.

Below you can read the experience of "Sonya," a regular commenter on this blog who shared a comment today that I felt deserved to be featured in a blog post. 

Gurinder Singh Dhillon

Sonya describes how Gurinder Singh Dhillon, the guru of Radha Soami Satsang Beas (an Indian religious organization), responded after she courageously asked him about suicide. His response was uncaring, factually wrong, and distasteful.

Gurus shouldn't give mental health advice. If you wouldn't trust a guru with no medical expertise with telling you how to deal with a physical health problem, why would you trust what they say about a mental health problem?

I say this as someone who has been married for 29 years to a woman who was a Licensed Clinical Social Worker in private practice for quite a few years. My wife counseled people with a wide range of problems. Previously she worked as a school counselor, and before that, at a mental hospital.

(I have a Master's Degree in Social Work also, but I never actually worked as a social worker after graduate school, going into health services research instead.)

Reading Sonya's comment made me simultaneously sad and angry.

Sad, because she was treated so badly by Gurinder Singh Dhillon. Angry, because no one should make light of suicide or depression, especially someone in a position of authority -- like a guru.

The good news is that the experience led to Sonya losing faith in the RSSB guru. I enjoy hearing "deconversion" stories about how people come to the realization that spirituality is best practiced independently, rather than within the confines of a religious organization.

Here's Sonya's story. I've corrected some typos and added some paragraph breaks, but didn't change her comment otherwise. "Satsangi" means an initiate of Radha Soami Satsang Beas. "Dera" refers to the RSSB headquarters. "Sant Mat" is the RSSB philosophy.

Hi Arjuna and Jen, OK, I'm going to attempt to respond to both of you with one very long answer. :)

At the Dera during a Q&A session I asked Gurinder what happens to a soul when it commits suicide because I had tried to commit suicide twice in a 6 month period when I was 26.

I asked him this because I thought maybe my thoughts and actions of self harm during that period of my life and my continual self loathing that existed after that event might be at the root cause of my panic attacks which I had been suffering from for 15 years. They started about a year before I became a satsangi.

I was diagnosed with severe panic disorder because the attacks would last longer than an hour. One attack lasted 8 hours and I had to go to the hospital. It took me 6 months after that to feel like a normal human being again.

It felt like one day I was a normal person, then I had an 8 hour panic attack and the next day I was paraplegic. I wasn't really paraplegic, it's just that's how much my life had changed and permanently changed. I guess having a really long panic attack is like going through battle and then you have PTSD from the panic attack.

BTW, It was a miracle that I lived both times because I was truly very happy that I would never wake up again. I didn't leave a note... it wasn't a cry for help. I tried to make sure no one would find me till it was over.

And if you ask me why I tried to commit suicide (looking back it seems really dumb), I was really depressed after my boyfriend and I broke up. We had a very serious relationship... I was madly in love... He asked me to marry him and then I found out he was seeing someone else.

You know, the usual.

Anyway, yes I am fairly blunt and outspoken and the only reason I shared something this personal was because there was no way for me to get an interview with him [Gurinder Singh Dhillon] and I wasn't sure I'd ever be back at the Dera.

He said "Nothing happens to the soul. It's just the mind. Depression is a first world problem. You don't see poor people getting depressed because they're too busy working. Stop feeling sorry for yourself." That's what he said. Just like that.

The weird thing is that I had really been starting to question Sant Mat and him. However, even then I was very much in awe of him and somewhat "in-love" in a Master/disciple kind of way. I thought he would be the last person on earth that would ever hurt me.

My heart was absolutely broken and if my husband hadn't been with me I guarantee you I would have taken the 3 months supply of sleeping pills that I happened to bring with me. I would have taken them all at once right after that happened.

So, I went from the memory of one betrayal and broken heart to the realization that there isn't really anyone you can totally trust in this world. So, maybe I deserved it.

The reason I think he was so harsh was because I had been talking with some ladies after one meeting about how inappropriate he had behaved. They brought it up and I joined in because we all witnessed the same thing. Basically he was just being super flirtatious with some young women but it's not like he "took them home or anything". It just seemed a bit off-color.

And I think the word got back to him that some people were concerned about it.

Of course, that may not be it at all. He may never have even heard about it. Maybe I just needed someone to tell me that I was a selfish fool for trying to commit suicide twice over some stupid guy (I didn't tell him about the guy - I didn't say exactly why I did it--just told him I had been depressed).

And maybe I needed to realize that a guru isn't going to be there for you either to comfort you. Maybe he wanted me to learn that it's a mean, mean world, and that only the god inside of me can ever comfort me. Maybe he also wanted me to understand that love is bullshit.

He also told me that mental health problems are a first world problem. He made that very clear over and over. During that session someone asked him about people with serious mental health problems (like it was their family member or something) and he just shook his head and said you don't want to know what I think about mental illness.

He said that. Exactly like that.

So, I would never ask him about depression or anxiety if I were you. And God forbid you mention anything more serious like bipolar or schizophrenia. I think besides being born blind at birth, having a serious mental health problem like bipolar or schizophrenia are the only other things that will keep you from being able to be initiated today.

Now all that is very dark. It's hard for me to see how I could have been in such a dark place like that at one time in my life when I'm usually really happy these days. I also don't have panic attacks anymore.

After that experience I left Sant Mat for good and when I left Sant Mat I stopped having panic attacks. The panic attacks were horrific and I no longer have them, nor do I have depression.

So, yes Jen, I think you're right. He gave me exactly what I needed. And what I need is not him.

I shared some other comments by Sonya in another post, "Being worshipped leads Gurinder Singh Dhillon to behave badly." Here's how that post starts out:

I no longer believe that any person deserves to be worshipped. Respected, yes. Everybody is deserving of respect. But worship, no. 

For a long time, though -- some 35 years -- I was a member of an Indian religious organization (Radha Soami Satsang Beas, or RSSB) headed by a guru who is considered to be God in human form.

Just imagine how Christians would act around Jesus if he appeared on Earth. Worshipful, right? Well, that's how RSSB devotees act around Gurinder Singh Dhillon, the current guru. 

Recently Dhillon was accused of criminal conduct by his cousin, Malvinder Singh. Defenders of the guru are fond of saying that the death threats and massive financial fraud are just allegations. That's true, but they're believable allegations, given what's been previously reported on this blog about Gurinder Singh Dhillon.

To put it charitably, Dhillon doesn't act like the traditional RSSB guru. Less charitably, Dhillon acts very much like many other powerful men: full of ego, greedy, controlling, using women in less than admirable ways. (The Me Too movement has done a lot to raise awareness of this.)

Below is a comment left by Sonya on a recent post.

She does a good job of explaining why Gurinder Singh Dhillon behaves the way he does, given that he's worshipped everywhere he goes. Of course, other men are worshipped who don't end up behaving badly: the Pope, Dalai Lama, many others. 

The RSSB guru, though, is treated like the god he is believed to be by his devotees, while the Pope and Dalai Lama are just considered to be holy men. Of course, this doesn't excuse Dhillon's behavior -- it just helps to explain it.

Here's the first comment from Sonya. I'll share another one also.

Comments

[Jesse]

I guess India miraculously became 1st world overnight since suicide and depression are huge issues their society is dealing with.

Congrats, Manjit! You're finally relevant supposedly.

But seriously, fuck Gurinder Dhillon and the RSSB cult. It's a sick joke on humanity that causes more harm than good.

And be good to yourself, Sonya.

[Yogini Neetu]

Sanya , you have written about panic attacks happen becoz of sant math and then you stop following it stopped, THe meaning of it when you were doing cosmic yoga with closed eyes gazing between eyebrow with recitation of holy name continuously , it open the consciousness, when our nerves are not pure with some yogic exercise like jalaneti, etc or with very much satvik food then consciousness expansion is painful and it is known as panic attacks, it happens till entire consciousness is fully expand, Spirituality is with in you, Guru is within you, May be your soul can merge in cosmic energy where you will attain only pleasure, the door of divine open for the poor, who are in pain and who do true.love, Guru is level in inner journey when ida, pingla, and sushmana merge at eyebrow center then soul uplift in the sound zone of OM or similar, after that soul do not indulge in wordily affairs and attain liberation, it is very painful and difficult path , not for everyone, for the rare one, but may divine want to shower that blessing upon you and want to merge your soul with you,

Also your question about suicide soul, the answer is : When a human die where his consciousness is at the time of death that form energy takes again, SAnt mat teaches to practice your consciousness within self and then learn to unite individual self to supreme self so that at the time of death you merge with that, but if you do suicide your consciousnesses will be toward your painful time of life which you suffered and decided to suicide, but as consciousness was attach to pain again when you are leaving your breath then again birth will be in same circumstances of energy, We are small ball of energy and disconnected from divine cosmic energy, once we merge with that we attain contentment which we can never attain from worldly affairs and relationships,

If you want to cut off your pains then only recite holy name , holy lord name recitation is the path to salvation and merging with divine energy, It helps to improve body illness, but that is higher stage process, but at starting stages also it help to heal, Mr. Gurinder is not saint and did not attain guru level yet so do not contemplate him, we should contemplate only those who has merged with cosmic energy or true, Maharaj Charan Singh was true master, or you can contemplate on Lord Shiva or you can contemplate on yoru own self or the same guy to whom you love, as LOVe is god so in each human being god reside, so the contemplation of that person whom you love will drop you to the house of lord, Be in peace, May cosmos help you to reach to cosmic zone where you attain bliss,

do not leave your practice, you are very near to the pleasurable door which is above then fake worldly pleasures

[sonya]

Hi Jesse, I haven't laughed that hard in a long time. Thank you!

[Sonya]

Hi Yogini Neetu,

I appreciate the sincerity of your remark and I read what you wrote very thoroughly. I understand where you are coming from, However, my experience of fear wasn't like anything you would experience during meditation. Not unless you were practicing some really bizarre form of kundalini that even a Kundalini Master wouldn't practice or advise practicing. The panic attacks started at my head and moved all the way down until I was literally throwing up and pretty much losing all bodily fluids. The closest thing they could find medically that would cause such a violent state of fear that could last anywhere near as long as my first serious attack did (8 hours) was something called a continuous seizure which is lethal. The doctors ran all sorts of tests--MRIs, CAT scan... pretty much everything. There was a lesion in my front right lobe that when activated caused what a continuous seizure. That said, I believe stress is the root cause of many medical conditions especially when fear and depression are involved. So, certain things would trigger these seizures, namely Sant Mat.

The whole belief system of "I have multitudes of sins from thousands of lives and I'm separated from God because I'm not worthy" mindset was my trigger. When I left RSSB/Sant Mat/Gurinder, the triggers went away. So I don't have panic attacks now and when I do a mindful meditation practice I actually feel peace and calm in a way I've never felt before.

I believe the body and mind are connected. Often times what's going on in our mind is reflected by our physical selves and vice versa.

I can't stress enough how damning it is to one's mind/soul/spirit/sanity to believe that you are not worthy of God or your Higher Self and that you are separated from God (which I believe is your Higher Self--your best self). Santsangis sit for hours repeating a mantra with their eyes closed so that they can free themselves from their sins. Catholics spend hours praying for forgiveness and saying Hail Marys. Most religions (if not all) teach that we are sinners--so flawed that we have to suffer in order for God to love us. That's more than just a little crazy. But that's how most of the world thinks because Religion and most "spiritual paths" teach us that. Then they beat us over the head with it until we all start acting out the battered-wife syndrome. So naturally we are filled with guilt and fear and a feeling of "separation".

The Truth is hidden in plain sight in this crazy upside down world.

And the truth is we all make mistakes but we aren't damned to hell or prevented from being connected to joy and love. We don't need to suffer any longer than it necessarily takes for us to realize that we've caused pain to others or done something wrong. Once we've done that and made amends as best we can, we need to move on. Holding on to guilt make us fearful and when we are fearful we are not connected to Love and when we are not connected to Love we act selfishly and fearfully and cause added pain to ourselves as well as those around us.

I recognize that you are only trying to be helpful. But there's a lot more to this.

[s*]

Maybe it is good to tell a bit of my story too.
I am not so good with words plus English is not my first language.
BUT..wow..Sonya ...,what you write here makes me open up too..a little bit!!
I never want talk about my panic attacks sort of psychoses I had just because of the teachings of santmat.
It makes me more times scared to death..
Sometimes after satsang I sat in my room and was terribly scared that I was trying to change in my head the word scared to sacred..as a way out..
You know I coul'nt tell anybody about my thoughts and feelings..
I felt I was all alone ..everybody seemed so happy..and I was totaly misserable.
Then I walked in Dera..and they saw me..nobody helped I just had to take pills what made me even more misserable. The scary thing was to me..on the one side there was the LOVE of the Master..
On the other side the in fact scarry teachings.
I was astonished that nobody seemed to feel the same as me.
I never was so lonely as then in Dera.
Afterwards at home it costed much time to overcome this.
It costed years and years to become loose from this path,also my whole family were satsangi's
I felt I was totaly outcast because of this''ilness''
This is in very short was was my path..
I adored the master way too much..the contradictions with the terrible chaurasi transmigration teachings..was too much..
I do not know if it is good to write all this because it costed me for years very much of''so less selsconfidence..'' I gonna post this..sigh..
There is so much more to tell in fact..but I leave it like this.
Vipassana/mindfullness has helped me out ...<3

[Arjuna]

@ Sonya

I am deeply touched by what you wrote.
Stay strong as Jesse wrote above and be yourself always. It is hard and words are easy but just do it - because you can!

Depression is not a 1st world problem! It is a “human” condition. I would have responded to him by saying that “don’t you think that india has depressed people?”

Be good and sometimes wicked - all the very best

[Spence Tepper]

Depression is a first world problem like obscene greed and corruption are third world Guru problems. Maybe he has something there?

I'm at the Boston Anime Con right now waiting in a line surrounded by a sea of cosplayers (my special needs son and I were yesterday; he was Dante from Devil May Cry 2 and I was Dante from Devil may cry 4... I made the props including the guns, and the sword with skulls, it was fun) and for the third year in a row there are transgender bathrooms.

How much pain, real trauma, have people had to go through to first accept themselves, and secondly, to assert their basic human right to be respected?

It Is all around me today. The free right to be whatever role they wish to play, in whatever clothes and makeup. The sheer joy of each hand made costume, and the laughter of friends, the selfies of cosplayers, and the mythic anime stories of coming of age, and triumph over ignorance and stupidity, we have all come to see and to hear the journey of the creators to bring their worthy stories to creation, are all around.

You see women dressed as male heroes, men dressed as beatiful Geisha girls, and beautifully indeterminate but happy faces.

This happiness was won. It was earned. It was fought for. This is their heaven.

Gurinder's problems are his world. And no one's fault but his own. We offer to help any way we can. But we are not obliged to live there. We live in our own magical place of our creation.

Sonya, depression is a powerful event. Own it. Be proud of it. Your heart feels deeply, your mind sees something others would rather ignore. You have triumphed.

But if you have been able to establish by your own standards that you, alone, are a world, a worthy place carefully grown by time, nature and circumstance more valuable than anyone else, then, welcome.

You've graduated. You have your super powers. On to the next school..

[jay]

Didn't many satsangis commit or attempt to commit suicide in grief over the death of Sawan Singh? Including Jagat Singh's wife and son? Did one of Sawan Singh's sons commit suicide? These may just be unfounded rumors.

It is known that Kirpal Singh harshly treated a distraught initiate who visited him in India. The initiate immediately went on to kill himself. This was reported by an initiate of Kirpal's, who apparently has removed that account from his blog after I pointed out to him how badly it reflected on Kirpal's claim of being a PLM. Credit to Sonya for having the courage to share her experience and for Brian to post it here.

[manjit]

Well, I wasn't going to comment here again for a while, but a few of the above comments make me want to post one last comment.

In an online environment and in today's "post-truth" world where nothing is at it seems, I generally hesitate to comment on topics such as these as "sincerity" is often more about appearances & strategies than real deep felt feelings........but, to Sonya, Jen and Sita above.....thank you for sharing, it's very, very courageous of you all to be so open, honest & vulnerable. I've been through periods of extreme "depression" (or "dark nights" as I label them) myself. Deep bows of respect.

To Spence - that was a beautiful post & I entirely agree.

But to clarify something - in my 2 recent comments, I have used the word "retard" on numerous occassions. I do not use this word easily or light-heartedly, but to highlight exactly how abhorent it is.

In my personal life, since I was a child, and in all my online interactions, I have never once used such terminology as an insult or in a derogatory manner. My infants and junior school was right next to a "special needs" school and our playing fields over-lapped......I have always, deeply, deeply, been appalled at the bullying, name-calling, verbal taunting etc these kids had to suffer. I sincerely hope the intention of my repeated use of the word today was understood to precisely highlight that it is lazy & abhorent name calling.

[Spence Tepper]

No problem Manjit
Yes, year after year my son endured it. As a parent, you simply become the social circle, until in a special environment they can find theirs. And there are hardships that will never change.

"Dad, it's not disease! I'm OK. It's just a condition."

And he has been my teacher.

[Spence Tepper]

To watch my son bury himself in a book, light novel, or Manga, in sheer delight, is my greatest please.

[Sonya]

Hi *s,

When I read your comment tears streamed down my face because I understand exactly what you are talking about. A few days before my first panic attack that landed me in the hospital, I had picked up Sar Barchan and started reading it. At that time I knew next to nothing about Sant Mat because I wasn't into organized Religions or Gurus. So my husband and I agreed to disagree and not talk about it. I remember my first impression of the book was this overwhelming tone of judgement. It was a very uncomfortable and a somewhat scary feeling reading it because that just wasn't my way way of seeing the world then.

You say that you're not that good with words and English isn't your first language but I thought the play on sacred and scared was beautiful. I think if I ever collect my notes and scribbles scattered amongst my various journals I might one day but them in a book and call it 'Scared to Heaven in My Sacred Hell".

You're not alone. I believe many people in Sant Mat and at RSSB have had experiences similar to yours but are too scared to say so. After all isn't Love supposed to take away the fear? We start wondering what's wrong with ourselves. I read somewhere that when you feel fear (in the truest sense) it is an indication something isn't true.

You are on the path to learning what true love is and fear will not be able to find you there.

[Sonya]

Hi Arjuna,

Thank you! And yes, I wish I could have thought a little more clearly and given a better response to his response. You're right, there isn't a country, race, religion or socioeconomic group immune to depression, anxiety and mental illness.

But at the time I was so stunned it was like I had been burned. Physically burned--the kind where it is so deep that the nerve endings have been damaged and you can't feel anything for a while. Luckily I was in this numb state as I sat through the rest of the meeting that night. But when I got to my room the nerve endings started to respond and the pain was excruciating. I honestly have never been that hurt by a single action before. But a lot of that has to do with how we see the Master.

One of the things about having a Living Master is that you are taught he's always with you, that he's going to release you from this world of suffering and without him you can never make it on your own. So, what happens is you think about him every day all day and develop this one-sided imaginary relationship with him in your mind. You develop a deep personal bond (in your mind) and give him so much power over you that when he rejects you or is unnecessarily harsh it is life-altering in one way or another. Some people leave the path after an experience like that. Some stay and decide to follow with blind faith and devotion while seeing themselves as even more lowly.

Some people don't go on... they don't go on at all. Those are extreme cases but it is more common when your relationship with your guru is so unbalanced. I can understand people following a guru or teacher if the teacher knows them personally and is there with them to guide them as a teacher in a classroom would or a doctor that sees you regularly would... or a mentor who knows you and works with you closely.

But with RSSB having 4 million plus followers, the guru doesn't know the majority of the satsangis. Some never even see him in person during their lifetime. I often wonder what the point of a Living Master is when he isn't living in your life. They say you need a living master the same way you would need a professor in school or a doctor to treat you. But the reality is that isn't how things work in RSSB. There are so many psychological implications to this I could write a book about it.

However, I'll just point out a few. One, when we have a one-sided relationship with a rock star guru then any interaction with that person carries far more weight than anything said or done to you by your spouse or parents or friends. So if it's a positive interaction it's amazing if it's really negative it's devastating.

Another problem is that you are taught the guru is always right. He is taught that he is always right. So, there is now personal growth taking place, it's simply bowing down to him and not questioning things even when you witness something he does that really seems wrong. And he can't apologize because that would carry so many implications for him. It would unravel a huge ball of yarn. And worst of all many times he probably isn't aware of the impact he has. So careless words from someone in that position can have terrible consequences.

Your teacher can rebuke you or give you a "Zen slap" as Jen said but that' because they get to know you. They personally live in your life and are there to work with you regularly. They actually know you.

[Sonya]

"Depression is a first world problem like obscene greed and corruption are third world Guru problems."

Spence, what you said hit the nail on the head.

I hope you and your son had a truly wonderful time at Comic Con. It's very cool (took my nieces earlier this year as I'm sure you know). I bet the Comic Con in Boston is way better than ours--we live in a small city in the Midwest. But I used to live in Cambridge, MA so now I think I understand you better. It makes sense--all of your well written, well thought out, intelligent comments. :)

Your son is very lucky to have a father like you and you are very blessed to have him.

[Sonya]

Yes, Jay! I don't think that was a rumor. I could swear I read it somewhere...

Great Master was once asked where Judas was--what happened to him after betraying Jesus and hanging himself. His answer was that Judas was sitting at the right had of Jesus. I'm not sure how that translates in Satsangi terms but Great Master said it with love.

Manjit, it's amazing how many levels of depression there are. I'm sorry you had to go through that. It doesn't matter what level of depression you are experiencing or what the causes are the simple truth is it's not something you can just "snap out of" as you and anyone who has ever experienced it knows very well.

Depression is a very complex matter. All the times I've heard people ask Gurinder about depression he will usually give them an answer that goes something like this: Depression is just like opening a book and flipping all the pages at once. It just means you've tired out your mind.

I know for certain that is a gross over simplification.

[Sonya]

And finally, Brian, I feel like I have nationalistically overtaken the comments on this blog post which wasn't my intention but you know me--overly communicative.

I was totally surprised when you wrote a post around those comments... When I went back to your site after watching 'Pirate Radio' (awesome movie about 60's rock in the UK--a must see for those who haven't seen it) I was sort of stunned. I mean, as I was reading it, it was as if I was reading about someone else. And from that perspective, for the first time I realized that Religion and Gurus can create the battered-spouse syndrome.

We love the Guru. We love our God. We love the Church. We want them to love us. And when they don't we think it's our fault because we are "lowly sinners". We work even harder to make them love us and they do for a while but then sometimes they don't. And we just keep going back for more. On some level we know it's really f'd up and we want to get away but often feel like we have nowhere else to go.

However, when we see someone else going through it, we're like, "Why the hell are you putting up with that shit!!" The why is because it's like a spiritual "divorce"... and can take time to realize you don't have to keep going back for more. But when you can finally see the forest for the trees you don't feel lost anymore.

Thanks, Brian. THAT was the "Zen slap" I needed! LOL

[Dungeness]

I read somewhere that when you feel fear (in the truest sense) it is an indication something isn't true.

You are on the path to learning what true love is and fear will not be able to find you there.

Sonya, thanks for this beautiful expression of hope and resilience.

[Nancy]

Hi Sonya you have written so much and shared so much which only leaves 1
Question left to ask. You mentioned you were initiated...did you follow the vows after initiation? Did you meditate for 2.5 hours everyday?

[Brian Hines]

Nancy, actually that's the least important question to ask, since it has nothing to do with the disgusting way Gurinder Singh Dhillon responded to Sonya's question about suicide.

Also, in my lengthy experience with RSSB initiates -- 35 years -- I know that most don't meditate for 2.5 hours a day. And I remember one of the RSSB gurus, Charan Singh, saying that 10 minutes of genuine meditation is better than hours spent sort of meditating.

[Tulsidog]

Gurninder seems to be out of touch with his own country, which is as Third World as it gets. According to India Today it is the most depressed country in the world, Does he tell the Indians that India is actually First World and their depression is because they aren't impoverished enough which make them lazy?

https://www.indiatoday.in/education-today/gk-current-affairs/story/india-is-the-most-depressed-country-in-the-world-mental-health-day-2018-1360096-2018-10-10

[Sonya]

Nancy, I did my level best during the 13 years I followed the path.

Brian said it best in his comment.

And even Gurinder has said that he didn’t do his meditation as much at first... it took him a while to devote to it... Ask him about it. But that doesn’t have anything to do with why and how things ended.

[Nancy]

I ask this question because my understanding and experience tell me that initiation without putting the effort in daily meditation means nothing from the perspective of the deciple. In sant mat experience is everything the meditation is the only way to gain that experience and the only way to progress.
Sonya you answered my question. Thank you.

[Meditator]

As of now I can not quote a better example which is more of talk of town in this forum than anywhere and it is the misreading by Fortis brothers of the Master as to be a father figure in the world beyond even while He simply may have guided with His plain worldly wisdom and logics to accrue mutual benefits but surreptitiously He might have tilted the business decisions in His immediate family's favour. They might have believed Him to be possessing extra spiritual powers which He might employ to cover any damages. But to their surprise it may have been on the reverse side exactly than they believed.

They might be facing a cruel mental agony now eventually more than any of us may have faced.

Have seen Him that He having been not comfortable in replying to personal queries - dodging or beating about the bush in reply mostly to which a man of average intellect can suggest even better options to deal with a situation.

I can think of Him to be even harsh and assaulting when contested or seeking answers to personal queries or matters.

Principally He has been made to sit on a gaddi' as a spiritual guide by His predecessors and their lies the benefit of doubt. He can be questioned on spiritual aspects which perhaps He is more than willing to answer with all his eyes and ears open. For rest matters it is an individual response on different issues. Some swallow it easily others may feel bad in case the replies ate distasteful from Him.

[Meditatot]

I do not know if anyone of us among RSSB disciples incldg Exs may have got harmed directly or indirectly due to Him or by Him in any earthly ways due to greed or else except by Him to His Guru's family allegedly. In consequence of His worldly advise or action even I am not sure if anyone may have harmed himself or herself.

However it may be that we are not made for spiritual kind of things is yet another matter to delve into rather differently than associating it to Masters. Those of us who seriously contemplate on beyond world issues - life and deaths etc find it difficult to handle when we don't find real inner progress inwards at times despite our best efforts. Get dissociated from world temporarily without an inside progress at times and that creates troubles for me even.

Need to push again into the world to live life as usual.

[Dharam]

@Sonya
In Santmat Path or Surat Shabad Yoga,there is no element of fear.It is a natural process.There is no need to fear at all.
Firstly,Initiates are ensured that their stored karmas are partly burnt by the Master and rest are burnt by meditation and listening to Shabad.Account of Initiates is taken over by the Master from Kal.
Kal or negative power can never harm a disciple and per chance,if there is a problem,negative power will run away by recitation of Simran.So you are made fearless.
Secondly,prarabdha i.e destiny has to be borne by each one .In destiny also,there is a relaxation of upto 90%,if an initiate meditates regularly for full time and abides by vows and has love abd devotion.
Thirdly,initiates are assured that they will not go to cycle of 84 lac species,if they act upon santmat.
Fourthly ,Master implants His Shabad Form in initiate's soul and He is always with the initiate in the world and during meditation,in complete journey upto Sachkhand.So, God in His Shabad Form Who is Dyal (Kind)and Almighty is always with the disciple to help and take care.
Hence an initiate becomes fearless and there is no reason to fear at all in Santmat.

[Arjuna]

@ Sonya - keep the good work up. Takes a brave person to write as you have done.

I have suffered from depression on and off all my life but instead of looking at how I can become a better version of myself (we are only here once), I started praying to him - but there never an answer.

This blog has helped me on that knowing that he has said stuff like “I cannot take your karma, there is a no kal, no master comes at death, etc”

So if we are truly on our own - let’s fight to become better versions of ourselves rather than conditioned “I’m better than you” which is what RSSB creates.

All the very best

[s*]

Thank you very much dear Sonya for your sweet understanding and answers.
You are a very good writer and poet as I see it,with a warm heart.
Thanks to this place also insights came clearer to me,thanks to Brian!
I just lost a long post..but it is alright now.
I felt a bit bad,because the Path gave me also beautiful things!!
It is the very good with the very bad how it was..
But the quitensence is that I am now balanced the good and the bad side of ''my''Path.
I still have feelings for Gurinder but not as a Sat Guru.
I loved Maharaji deeply..,also because I searched for God at a young age.
Maharaji served that in that time.
The fears came definitely painfully distructively..nobody understood that and me neither..
Why was the Path sooo Loving and soo hard/harsh at the same time??
Now I am balanced happily..
Also trough Vipassana,also retreats.

The RS happyness was intens and the suffering was also intens.
Its is good to share things because it becomes more and more clear.
Thanks everyone here for this possibility.

[Arjuna]

@ Dharam

Present master has said there is No Kal!

Discuss? Have you seen Kal or come across one of his lieutenants?

[One Initiated]

What good work Arjuna?
Abusing your own Master in public?

And so far, unfortunately, it's been done quite well!

On the sunset, each one of us will be through the truth.
Many of us already have the glimpse of that. It's

Air is different right now, but it will change with the course of time. you will witness.
Collectively all of us (including you?) will be called as "Master Abusers".
That's a great legacy we are going to leave behind us.
Pretty good work, indeed!

[Arjuna]

@ one initiated - hello

“Good work” in terms of dealing with her depression. Is that not good work?

[Arjuna]

@ one initiated - you think it’s ok to make someone feel insecure???

Did not Christ - forgive a prostitution.

[Dharam]

@ Arjuna
Litrrally,Present Master might have said that there is no Kal.
He means to say that there is no Kal for initiates.All account and charge of the iniated soul is taken over by the Master.After initiation,Master in Shabad form is the Incharge and care taker of the initiated soul.That soul has no more connection with the Kal.
Hence,we can say there is no Kal for the initiated souls.

[Dharam]

@Arjuna
Read as Literally ,Master might have said---------------------------
in the above comments posted by me @typing error.

[One Initiated]

We all have miserably failed in understanding the point.

a short story:

A heart patient with severe chest pain and congestion
went to a Cardiologist, and asked for the treatment.
After diagnosing, the doc gave him Cardioversion therapy.

The patient started abusing the doctor for giving electric shocks to him,
stepped out of hospital,
started connecting with fellow cardiac patients and telling them the story,
"ever since I left that doctor, the chest pain is gone, I feel much better now.
I recommend none of you shall go to that Cardiologist who gives electric shocks."

Doctor: Smiling.
Sonya: I feel empathy to this patient.
Brian: (let me explain) Why a heart patient should never go to a Cardiologist!
Spence: a 3rd world doctor should not treat 1st world patient. I am happy to remain a
patient in 1st world country.
s*: I have gone through the same Doc, I've had good experiences with him otherwise,
but yeah, I never liked the shock treatment, that's very harsh.
Arjuna: Keep up the good work dear patient.
Your bravery of standing against such doc has corrected your heart issues.
Doctor: Still smiling.

[Arjuna]

@ Dharam

Have you seen Kal? You see I’m not interested in what worldly knowledge you have through books or Beas.

Have you seen him?

[Sonya]

Hi Dharam,

Gurinder has said repeatedly that he does not take on the disciplines karmas. He said the Masters do not take on the karmas, they can choose to buy usually do not. That is his current stance. It’s not the same as what you have read before in some of the books.

Gurinder believes very strongly in karma in the sense that people must suffer for their sins. He does not believe in forgiveness. He believes that one has to work towards removing their karmas through meditation by their own efforts. Again, he doesn’t believe in forgiving sins he believes you must pay and suffer the consequences. And he doesn’t take on your karmas.

This feels like a very strange thing to being writing about on Easter Sunday. I respectfully attend church with my parents on Easter and Christmas. So different the feeling I have writing this compared to the feeling I had listening to someone talk about love and forgiveness for all of humanity and that it doesn’t matter what you believe in—love, forgiveness and hope.

It’s a very progressive church that invites speakers from all faiths and different practices. It’s about community and our shared humanity. I’m not a member or regular attendee but really enjoyed the message of hope, forgiveness and self-acceptance.

[Brian Hines]

One Initiated, metaphors aren't reality. Anyone can construct a metaphor about anything, just as you did in your comment above about a doctor giving shocks to a patient.

Here's reality about doctors: they make mistakes. They're imperfect. Just like gurus.

These are facts. My wife had some problems with her eyes failing to focus properly. "Crossed eyes," basically, which came on fairly suddenly late in life. She's 69. She went to an eye doctor here in Salem who told her there wasn't any surgery for her problem.

After doing more research, my wife found an eye doctor in the Portland area who does surgery for her problem. About two months ago she had the surgery from the new doctor. It seems to be working.

Lesson: don't stick with a doctor, or guru, who doesn't know what he/she is doing. Get second opinions. Question. Don't take advice or diagnoses on faith. Use your critical thinking ability.

I was a Research Associate in the Family Practice Department of the Oregon Health Sciences University after I left graduate school. After that, I was a health planner, and then was executive director of a bioethics organization.

I know full well how many mistakes doctors make. Same is true of people in any other profession. Including the guru profession. Like I said in this post, if a guru is clueless about mental health problems, don't take advice from him on this subject. Find someone competent.

[Arjuna]

@ one initiated - what is your real name?!?

You have no idea about me and what I wrote above.

Tell me what is your take on money being stolen by the brothers??? This is what pushed me away!

Do not the masters say that if a master appears suspect - ran away! Why was the money required??????

Tell me why - is this an Indian trait to have land and money. You cannot serve God and Money!

I desire to meet God but not an angry one!!!!

Stop being his spokesman - you are not following him! He told you not to react!!

And let’s see if Dharam answers my question without quoting stuff I was brain washed with!!!

[Arjuna]

@ Dharam - well have you seen or met Kal????? If not stop posting crap!!!

@ One initiated - well???? What say you to my questions above? Why does God need Money????? Why, why why??????

Better still - if any cronies from Beas are reading this- please feel free to answer. Oh you lot have a lot of answering to do!!! Make your account books available to outside auditors???? What have you to hide???

Peace out!

[Sonya]

Hi Tulsidog,

I just had time to read the article you posted and I am even more astonished. It’s very sad too. I know Gurinder doesn’t read the RSSB books much anymore but I do know that he’s well read and keeps abreast of the news. That article came out just last year. He clearly missed it... which surprises me because it’s India Today and I know he was in India last when it was released. A guru can’t afford to be that out of touch.

Thank you for sharing the link!

[Sonya]

Tulsidog, I can’t get over the surprise. The title of the article:
India is the most depressed country in the world | Mental Health Day 2018

Mental Health Day 2018 was was October 10th and it was only two months after that he told me depression was a first world problem. He’s not just out of touch with the sangat, he’s out of touch with his country.

What other really important things is he not aware of?

[Spence Tepper]

This is not a true Master.

[Spence Tepper]

This blame the victim mentality is wrong.

If the doctor 's sugar pill or bitter pill didn't work, this is not a real doctor.

A good doctor listens and understands.

That didn't happen here.

In this case bad medicine made things worse.

Baba Ji should help pay the FDA fine.

A bad doctor should not be practicing medicine.

[Spence Tepper]

Once upon a time a greedy investor pretended to be a medical doctor..... You know the rest of the story, you've heard it before...

[Arjuna]

@ spencer- hello

I want to know from One Initiated why GSD and his family needed that much money. This is serious and needs a response.

Whu should his children have business opportunities (albeit they end up closing down) compared to others who get brain washed into all sorts of things ie chase money.

Dharam just bored me about talking about Kal. Hello GSD has said there is no Kal. He needs to respond too.

[Spence Tepper]

Hi Dharam
You wrote
"In Santmat Path or Surat Shabad Yoga,there is no element of fear.It is a natural process.There is no need to fear at all."

You have illustrated the problem with RSSB here in one line.

This isn't about Sant Mat dogma. This is about someone's experiences. Whether they need to feel this way or a different way has nothing to do with their experience. They must feel exactly as they do, and if they wish to feel differently, that doesn't change how they feel. This is where they are, who they are. And there is a perfection in it. We are not here to feel good all the time. We are here to live fully. And sometimes that includes going through anxiety, and realizing, what I'm doing is wrong and I need to get out.

Sonya and Brian knew intuitively that something was wrong with Gurinder. The rest of us complacent and fearless souls dismissed them.

But they are right. Sonya 's anxiety is superior to your meditative bliss.

You are putting Sant Mat up like a wall between you and this person's reality. And Therefore Sant Mat is just your justification for not understanding and accepting someone's experience.

But by openly acknowledging her anxiety and pain, Sonya moved out of the mud. She walked away from something very wrong. And it is coming to light every day how wrong RSSB has become.

But it took her anxiety, and her heartfelt acceptance of it, to realize she was in something that was very wrong for her, and so she got out.

She is closer to salvation, anxiety and all, then an entitled Guru who can't turn from any open square inch of real estate without lusting after it.

I don't think any real Saint wants you to use any philosophy in this way.

[Spence Tepper]

Hi Arjuna
You know what a life of selfless service is.
It has nothing to do with money.
But where our heart is, that is where we go.
So how we spend our time speaks volumes louder than our stated beliefs.

We haven't seen Gurinder or his family rebuilding homes destroyed by flood right there in the aftermath, with their bare hands, a hammer, screwdriver and a saw. We saw Jimmy Carter do that for many years, long after he was too old to do so.

We haven't seen Gurinder and his family sell their homes and move into modest apartments, placing all their wealth into philanthropy. But we have seen a few do so...

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/chuck-feeney-the-billionaire-who-gave-it-all-away-1.3413084

Now, everyone is a hypocrite, because our desires exceed our capacity. All have feet of clay. But we can choose to be an honest hypocrite, or a dishonest one.. We can say "Here is what I am and what I've done, and where I am trying to get to, to grow into." Or, when the disastrous results of our own decisions start reigning down in pieces on the ground, pieces of everyone else's lives who depended upon us, we can sit in silence and maintain a dishonest distance.

By remaining silent and entitled he has disqualified himself from the human race. No Saint ever did that.

He said he didn't want to react. That's a defensive comment.
He needs to respond. That's a human thing.

[BlackRose]

I really resonate with this post. A few years ago my cousin committed suicide. At first it came as a huge shock as it was very sudden and I thought no one knew she was suffering. Turns out I was wrong. Both her mother and Gurinder Singh knew and did nothing. After the suicide my cousin's mother revealed that two years prior to the death she had gone with her daughter for a private interview with him where my cousin confessed to him that she was thinking about suicide. I did not hear this story first hand but he apparently told her that suicide was a sin and her mother yelled at her for saying such things. I do know that no action was taken. Neither Gurinder nor my aunt told a single soul about this at the time and so no one took action to get my cousin the help she needed. If Gurinder Singh, who my cousin believed was god incarnate, was compassionate to her and encouraged her to get help she may still be alive today.

The surprising thing is that there is another satsangi young person tangentially related to the same family who I have heard is suicidal. I don't know her name or know her personally but I sincerely doubt she is being given the help she needs either because of Gurinder's denial of depression as a real thing people all over the world of any class experience. How many people has he indirectly killed because of this? I feel deeply sad for my cousin and the other girl.

[Dungeness]

This is not a true Master.

Dear Spence,'

I thought the "outer Master" was always flawed. After all, they
will occasionally utter contradictory, bizarre, inscrutable Zen-like
things; confound wide-eyed, logic bound disciples with heretical
interpretations; even use language no longer considered PC.

Examples are found in every nook and cranny of RSSB. Great Master
was accused of dalliances with the "three Bibi"s"; of aiding dacoit
"Gangu Daku" in his life of crime (see "Call of the Great Master" *);
and, beating Maharaji with his stick for falling asleep during Seva.

*** of course, the "inner Master" takes the rap for this one; the "outer"
one has the plausible deniability of an "Unknowing Saint".

Stories of Maharaji's, "smuggling" re-surface every few years (you know,
pressing naive initiates into smuggling expensive watches by customs).
There're whispers of a tryst with a beaufiful German disciple; and, of
course, living the "Baba Life" without holding a real job for 40 years.

Ah, then there's Gurinder. He and his family's actions are far more serious.
They can -and shouldn't be- minimized. But to frame him and him alone
as "The Real Perp" in this shrill chorus of condemnation is contemptible.

Condemn the acts. They are not worthy of a GIHF. But to condemn GSD
without a trial or conviction, without his statement and defense in court,
and to then sermonize about his "Greed" , "Corruption" and lack of
legitimacy as a true RSSB master makes a mockery of fair mindedness.

[s*]

And I thought it was the the son of Sardar Bahadur Who jumped from the roof..
I do not know if it had something to do with his father becoming the master?
I'll ask if James Bean knows..in ''radhasoamistudies''

I really have the feeling that if people have some sort of psychiatric problem satsangi's see that as inferior.
They are not compasionate at all about such things in my vieuw.
Because when you meditate''the santmat''way..your mind is clear..so they think.

So a sort of unnatural behavier can come in because of that..

[Grateful one]

Blackrose
I’m sorry but I know your cousin she was a very good friend of mine and I know the entire family as well. Yes she may have mentioned to her mother that she had these thoughts but her mother did not take it seriously as she never thought she would do it and I also know for a fact that Babaji was very sympathetic to her situation and told her clearly that suicide is the biggest sin and one should not do it. She even asked this in a q and a and I heard his response myself as I was there. Your cousin(my good friend) was neither depressed nor had any problems. I find it’s very easy to blame someone else(in this case the master) for what she chose to do to herself. That is very wrong as he was not involved in this situation at all. Your cousin wasn’t initiated or followed the path or any vows so how can this be related to the Master or his teachings? I know first hand because my friend stayed with me and we talked about it. This is the problem with these kind of comments where people write whatever they want which is non factual and only hearsay and many people tend to believe.

[Spencer Tepper]

Hi Dungeness:

A true Saint lives to a higher standard, and spends their life in service, not acquisition.
So it isn't a matter of pointing to any one person and saying "He is the worst of all."

Very good people can be decent spiritual teachers.

But a true Saint is another being altogether.

They can be found among us. The criteria are not so complicated.

The divine Word resounds in everyone, and there are those who right from birth hear it.

It's part of the natural biological variation of the human species. And they do gravitate to those who also have progress in it...to the natural teachers.

Those individuals have no concern for material things at all, and never have.

It's just their nature. You can find such in any land.

Which is why it is so strange to hear all the excuses people provide here for someone who clearly is unsuited to the job.

Now, this isn't to judge legality.

This is simply looking at conduct, which is very much in evidence. We are not dealing here with a true Saint.

No true saint ever claims the formal role of a teacher of spirituality. The notion itself is wrong.

"You are not to be called teacher...for you are all brothers [and sisters] and have One Teacher.."
Christ.

To claim some secret reasons for their apparent misbehavior, well, they may exist, but always in the life of an individual living mostly a harmless life of Ahimsa. A life of peace and love for all beings.

So, we should all be attuned to that "vibe" and willing to find and accept people who operate at that higher level.

A true Saint lives there.

[s*]

Jagat Singh's son committed suicide several years after his father, Jagat Singh, died.

In his will, he left the care of his family to Charan Singh, which was another responsibility that was added to Charan's life.

Jagat's wife once tried to commit suicide by jumping off a small building, apparently wanting to have a child.

She survived (seems to have been a pretty small jump).

David Lane told this in ''radhasoamistudies''

[Mike England]

So many here have opened up their personal lives. Some in support of Sonya and others elsewhere.
I understand that depression is a very painful experience, especially as it is chronic.
People who have Suicidal thoughts or actions are not to be dismissed so easily. For a person to even think of attempting to take their own life, they must consider the pain of living too great.

Jagat Singh axiom states “No one here is truly happy”
RSSB literature says:
This vale of tears...
We are under the influence of the Negative Power...
And so on....

Look at the guru as a friend...
Saints are Love and Compassion...
And so on...
For the Baba to not understand his own teachings is abhorrent.

I hope and wish that everyone who posted their feelings here are in a better and happier place.
Life is all we have

Heartfelt Love to ALL here at the CotC

[Spence Tepper]

Some additional criteria.
A true Saint doesn't have standards for initiation. They love the blind and special abled more than anyone. There is no rejection at all. Everyone is moving forward and they do their job to help.

If they are your friend, they will offer what they know at the right time. There is no organisation. They may be found in places people go to learn about spirituality, or philosophy, or science, or art, but only as participants or patrons. The arts are a school of spirituality, as is science. You would have to see for yourself what happens inside when people are engaged in these activities to witness how each pulls consciousness up and forward.

This is why the highest param Sant is sitting in the audience, not on the dias.

They might be your chemistry professor, or the Mailroom clerk.

The path is natural. We are hard wired for it. So there are lots of things that can pull the soul up. The sound is part of that, always. But almost every artist, writer or scientist, engineer, care giver, hears it when they are in the groove and lose themselves in their creative work and service. They just haven't been taught to attend to it. But it grows all its own.

You won't find a true Saint founding any organization. Their life is simple.

They have zero status to confer on anyone. There is no royalty or classes. No one competes for their attention.

But the inner path is vast. That's where they spend their time. If you sense intuitively that place, they will come to you, you will be drawn to them.

[Sonya]

Hi BlackRose,

Your comment saddened me deeply and horrified me. Thanks for sharing. I'm so sorry for your loss and your family's loss. I'm very angry though. I can take a lot sh*t personally but I can't stand it when a person holding a high position of authority negligently hurts others. Gurinder is cancer.

He will answer for it. He will.

[Sonya]

"Your cousin(my good friend) was neither depressed nor had any problems."

Grateful one,

Clearly BlackRose's cousin was not a good friend of yours or you were not a very good friend to her if you think she wasn't depressed. No one commits suicide when they're happy. No one commits suicide for no reason at all. Human's have a strong instinct to live.

I don't even know what to say to you. Your comment is almost the worst thing I have ever heard in response to such a horribly tragic situation.

[One Initiated]

Dear Arjuna,

The question comes back to us: who exactly we are seeking? A True Master of Spirituality or a law abiding citizen ?

If you go with Spence's unimpressive explanations,
you will end up doubting Maharaj Ji and further Soami Ji and the whole lineage and beyond.
Once the seed of doubt is seeped in, it's not easy to come out of it.

To me it appears that Spence is in great delusions right now, he might have been inside but currently it's most likely that he is not inside anymore... and have fallen prey to the games of mind. I am not sure though about his stand - but his comments are not making slightest sense from spiritual standpoint.

Adigranth:
Master does as HE wish,
HE fills the empty vessels,
HE empties the filled ones,
Master does as HE wish.

If we are questioning the Master without knowing the end result, we are fooling ourselves by wasting precious breaths.

the Masters in fact always abide by the laws,
however, their functioning is much much beyond any nation and laws setup nations and lucifer. all these nations and the laws and the constitutions are the projections of lucifer not the Satpurush.
Masters are much above any government - Sardar Bahadur Ji used to call HIM: "Sachchi Sarkar" - True Government.

It was mentioned here on this blog about the bank scandal at the times of Soami Ji Maharaj,
which later after years came out as nothing - and everything was being used for humanity. (everything spent at that time is still being utilised by numerous individuals) - you gotta trace back the history - it's beautiful.
All the times there were doubting disciples too... and so we have now - nothing changed.. except the superficial changes like the technology and science.

If you go back to the times of Guru Nanak Dev Ji Maharaj, you will come across an account where HE was working in a groceries store started giving everything to everyone for free when HE was counting from 1 to 13 at the time of giving the wheat to a customer (13 in hindi sounds "terah" and "tera" means yours) - and HE was questioned for all HIS accounts and conduct at the store.
Many started abusing HIM - also accusing HIM about the financial misconduct... which was visible from the doubtful eyes - and also the help done was taken on discount, just like Spence does.
Later at the end all books came into profits.

What all Babaji is carrying out is beyond our perception, to perceive and decode it - first you have to reach Par-Brahm. Otherwise this is all joke when we don't know about our own death's date and time and we are here to question the actions of the Lord of the Universe.
HE just smiles, always.

Being in this doubtful notion towards the Master, who is at loss ?
We are fooling ourselves.
Our heart is filled with doubts, hatred, anger, anxiety. Worst is that we start abusing the Masters (God forbid who resort to this cheapness, collecting worst possible karmas).
We are signing a loss proposition - we are losing precious days/weeks/months from this birth - which could have been spent into meditation, loving the Master and loving each nano particle of this universe.

[Grateful one]

Sonya she was a good friend of mine and no she was not depressed, she never told me such a thimg nor did she tell any of her family members or anyone closest to her. She was happy, healthy and jovial like most people. Perhaps some guy hurt her and she did what she did. She was interested in someone.
I have a friend who’s 10 year old daughter says she doesn’t want to live. Her mother is initiated should be blame the Master for this too? What nonsense.

[In Search Of]

Just chiming in on this. When growing up a gentle.an who was a very devoted follower of Charan Singh in our centre killed himself by jumping off a bridge during rush hour one evening.

He gave the most inspiring satsang and was so soft spoken and cheerful, tou wouldn't think he was in that state of mind.

People who have these issues sometimes don't have an outlet for their depression and in the outside they appear "fun loving and cheerful" until they can't pull off the charade any longer.

To blame the guru, not so sure about that, but communication about these issues in an RSSB family typically dont go over well, so the stigma is there for sure.

[Sonya]

Grateful One,

It's not about blaming the Master. It's more about his idiotic understanding of real world problems. of mental health problems and the ridiculous advise he gives quite frequently.

People don't commit suicide for no reason. The will to leave and the fear of death are far to strong. There had to be something... it really upsets me when those close to someone that has committed suicide act surprised. I just have to ask them, Where you paying attention?? It upsets me because it so very incredibly tragic. And the warning signs are always there. Perhaps GSD and the rest of the sangat should be educated on mental health issues - how to care for, watch for and intervene when necessary so that a person in turmoil doesn't harm themselves even more.

There are all sorts of educational websites about suicide and mental health. The next time Gurinder tells the starts off by telling the Westerners at the Evening Meeting that they should see the movie 'Lucy' (I shit you not, he actually did that--before the speaker could even give Satsang), ask him to read up on something A LOT MORE IMPORTANT than his movies.

https://www.spif.in/
http://www.suicide.org/hotlines/international/india-suicide-hotlines.html
https://www.vandrevalafoundation.com/
https://save.org/
https://suicidepreventionlifeline.org/
https://www.helpguide.org/articles/suicide-prevention/suicide-prevention.htm/

[Sonya]

Grateful One,

Sorry forgot to start doing the proofreading that I said I was going to--you can probably figure out which of the words were typos...

It's late here and I'm emotional about his. Sorry for attacking you--I usually don't do that. But it upsets me when people don't realize how much mental anguish has to be in to get to that point. Making that decision is not natural. It's not easy. It's the most agonizing thing one can do.

[Grateful one]

Sonya I don’t agree with you so we can agree to disagree. You are speaking from your experience and I am speaking from mine. No right or wrong just different experiences. I would never blame anyone for my choices or decisions though. We are all here in this world to help one another and the Master is an initiates biggest helper. Even though at
The time you may not see it as such. I know at this moment you don’t see it as this but I do and I have my view which I am writing on this blog just like you wrote your view. If my Master does not know what he is saying or doing then no body else knows. This is what I have experienced and learned in all my years of life and I’m sharing it with whoever wants to read this. You can bash me and call me whatever you want. I know all
Of you do that very well here.

[Yogini Neetu]

Mr. Gurinder dhillon has not at all a true guru and honest man, he has not completed his inner journey and to run the beas business he continue to share experience of swami ji maharaj and his previous master, he give naam from sarbach prose like shiv shakti, jot niranjan, satnam which even he himself has not recited, the one saint who recite holy name and attain salvation that name become holy and then the follower of htat saint if he recite same name will attain salvation ,so now guruinder dhillon is not giving those holy words which maharaj charan singh gave him , he changed the name from sarbachan prose book as his holy name he donot want to give as he knows till now he has not attain salvation and turned guru in his inner journey

WEll i am mentioning conversation of seeker(ARjuna) and teacher (master Krishna as per bhagwat geeta) which will describe the qualiteis of true guru and the one who attain salvation and merge with divine,

मात्रास्पर्शास्तु कौन्तेय शीतोष्णसुखदुःखदाः ।
आगमापायिनोऽनित्यास्तांस्तितिक्षस्व भारत ॥2.14॥

यं हि न व्यथयन्त्येते पुरुषं पुरुषर्षभ ।
समदुःखसुखं धीरं सोऽमृतत्वाय कल्पते ॥2.15॥

A soul when imprisoned in fear and doubt and affected by pair of pains & pleasure.
Master Krishna advice that pair of pain-pleasure, happiness-sorrows are subject to change, you learn to bear them. You should practice yog where you will attain stage when pair of pain-pleasure will not affect you. Attaining that supreme stage in both circumstances you will be unaffected. So understand this truth by Yog practice and slowly you mind will adopt the truth and it will not get effected by pair of pain-pleasure, happiness-sorrow, wealth-deprived, winter-summer, etc.

When a human learn Cosmic Yog and attain that stage when pair of circumstances does not affect him then only he is eligible to attain salvation.

यदा ते मोहकलिलं बुद्धिर्व्यतितरिष्यति ।
तदा गन्तासि निर्वेदं श्रोतव्यस्य श्रुतस्य च ॥2.52॥
Till mind is in attachment of worldly affairs and worldly relationship it is prisoned but when mind will be get freedom from attachment then you will attain renunciation.
Renunciation can be attain by meditating on lord via Cosmic Yog merely renounce worldly things and going into forest cannot help a human to attain salvation. It is the forceful detachment of body only. It is inner process of mind, when mind will get detachment then only one is eligible to attain salvation.
श्रुतिविप्रतिपन्ना ते यदा स्थास्यति निश्चला ।
समाधावचला बुद्धिस्तदा योगमवाप्स्यसि ॥2.53॥
The human mind is distracted since long time but when it follows the path of cosmic yog, it will get fixed and stable on the Supreme. Then you will attain cosmic yog and you will be able to unite your individual soul to the supreme soul every day.

अर्जुन उवाच
स्थितप्रज्ञस्य का भाषा समाधिस्थस्य केशव ।
स्थितधीः किं प्रभाषेत किमासीत व्रजेत किम् ॥2.54॥
When master describe about that with cosmic Yog one can attain stable mind, can attain salvation and merge with supreme then the pupil (Arjun) asked, once a human attain this stage then how he will behave, how he sits, how he speaks, how he walks? What are the characteristic of the human who has attain supreme adobe via cosmic yog.?

श्रीभगवानुवाच
प्रजहाति यदा कामान् सर्वान्पार्थ मनोगतान् ।
आत्मयेवात्मना तुष्टः स्थितप्रज्ञस्तदोच्यते ॥2.55॥

The one who attain that stage his desire get contented, worldly desire does not burn him and he attain satisfaction by uniting his soul to supreme soul, he attain pleasure in that which he find above then worldly pleasure so worldly pleasure does not attract him more. The first control he attain on desire. He will be free of worldly desires.
दुःखेष्वनुद्विग्नमनाः सुखेषु विगतस्पृहः ।
वीतरागभयक्रोधः स्थितधीर्मुनिरुच्यते ॥2.56॥
His heart will not feel any pain in circumstances of life pains and his heart will not be attached to the pleasures, Pair of circumstance cannot affect him more. He has also won control over his anger, he has attain detachment, he has overcome his fear of death and existence. Anger, attachment and fear dominate a human whose mind is not fixed and stable on divine but the human who has unite his soul has conquered his anger, attachment and fear.
यः सर्वत्रानभिस्नेहस्तत्तत्प्राप्य शुभाशुभम् ।
नाभिनंदति न द्वेष्टि तस्य प्रज्ञा प्रतिष्ठिता ॥2.57॥
The one attaining detachment is no more affected with good or bad. He is neither excited nor miserable with any circumstances, His mind has surrender in will of divine,
यदा संहरते चायं कूर्मोऽङ्गनीव सर्वशः ।
इन्द्रियाणीन्द्रियार्थेभ्यस्तस्य प्रज्ञा प्रतिष्ठिता ॥2.58॥
Like A tortoise fold his body under his shell similar way that human who has made his mind still and fixed can control his senses and can merge with his own self, After conquering his senses only he become able to made his mind still and fixed on supreme.
विषया विनिवर्तन्ते निराहारस्य देहिनः ।
रसवर्जं रसोऽप्यस्य परं दृष्टवा निवर्तते ॥2.59॥
If a human leave all desire and turn off his attention from all worldly subject then also his mind will not be still and get connected to the divine as his senses will be controlled forcefully but his mind will be wondering in greed of worldly subject, but the fortune one who has controlled his senses via cosmic yog and is able to unite his soul to supreme soul he only get attach to the supreme, other pleasure does not attract him, He stabiles his attention on supreme only.
यततो ह्यपि कौन्तेय पुरुषस्य विपश्चितः ।
इन्द्रियाणि प्रमाथीनि हरन्ति प्रसभं मनः ॥2.60॥
If a person has conquered his mind once, controlled his senses, his desire and attachment has been demolished, then also he should practice the cosmic yog everyday as these senses are flighty and anytime can turn the consciousness into the pleasure of senses.
तानि सर्वाणि संयम्य युक्त आसीत मत्परः ।
वशे हि यस्येन्द्रियाणि तस्य प्रज्ञा प्रतिष्ठिता ॥2.61॥
Henceforth, a person should always practice cosmic yog contemplating on his Guru/Divine and control his senses, Then his mind will be still and that person will be able to unite his individual soul to the supreme soul.
ध्यायतो विषयान्पुंसः संगस्तेषूपजायते ।
संगात्संजायते कामः कामात्क्रोधोऽभिजायते ॥2.62॥
If a human is attach to worldly subjects then his thought of that subject create a desire in him to attain it, to fulfill the desire he faces obstacles which creates anger in him.
क्रोधाद्भवति सम्मोहः सम्मोहात्स्मृतिविभ्रमः ।
स्मृतिभ्रंशाद् बुद्धिनाशो बुद्धिनाशात्प्रणश्यति ॥2.63॥
Angry man behavior turn unwise and unwise behaviors effect the memory, effected memory abolish the knowledge and intellect and when intellect eliminate then that human mind will be trembling and trembling mind leads to astray.
रागद्वेषवियुक्तैस्तु विषयानिन्द्रियैश्चरन् ।
आत्मवश्यैर्विधेयात्मा प्रसादमधिगच्छति ॥2.64॥
But the human who has control his senses and across the stage where his pain and pleasure do not affect him, he finally and slowly reach to the bliss adobe where he attain pleasure which is above all worldly pleasure. That zone is cosmic energy zone , he always remain peaceful and joyful there.
प्रसादे सर्वदुःखानां हानिरस्योपजायते ।
प्रसन्नचेतसो ह्याशु बुद्धिः पर्यवतिष्ठते ॥2.65॥
As his mind has learnt to attain supreme stage where he enjoy the bliss so he always connect his soul and mind to the supreme adobe and he never feels any worries with worldly affairs. He attain perfectness to join his individual soul to supreme soul so he immediately connect his soul to be in bliss instead of indulging in worldly affairs which he has realize are not worthy to pay attention.
नास्ति बुद्धिरयुक्तस्य न चायुक्तस्य भावना ।
न चाभावयतः शान्तिरशान्तस्य कुतः सुखम् ॥2.66॥
The person whose mind is not in control and he never learnt to control his senses, his intellect is low-spirited and his soul will not be having any feelings to realize the truth, Emotionless human can never attain peace and without peace he can never attain pleasure.

[Spence Tepper]

Hi Grateful One
You wrote
"If my Master does not know what he is saying or doing then no body else knows. This is what I have experienced and learned in all my years of life and I’m sharing it with whoever wants to read this."

Grateful One, no one else knows. Therfore neither did Gurinder.

A true Saint does know and so they carry the responsibility of every soul who asks for their help. So these suicides and the blame for every cruelty in this creation sits on their shoulders. They don't mind. They have broad shoulders.

But Gurinder is not a Sant Sat Guru. So he can only be blamed for arrogance, ignorance and unkindness. But when you carry those qualities while occupying the role of the Master, people take your comments as the words of the Lord. And when those words are shaming words, the effects can be devastating. Ignorance should lead someone to be humble, so they do not play games with other people's lives. But when you combine ignorance with arrogance the results can be harmful.

If he were a true Saint his responsibilities would be immense, boundless. But then so would his power and his grace. People would be saved from their own demons simply gazing upon him.

But it is clear that whatever demons pushed this soul to suicide were more powerful than Baba Ji.

And that's why it is terribly wrong to stand in the place of a true Saint when you are neither equipped for nor seriously interested in the job.

[In Search Of]

To Yogini Neetu, you wrote: "so now guruinder dhillon is not giving those holy words which maharaj charan singh gave him , he changed the name from sarbachan prose book as his holy name he donot want to give as he knows till now he has not attain salvation and turned guru in his inner journey"

This is not true. The naam he gives is identical to what Chahran Singh Ji gave. GSD still uses the same names and instructions. It's one thing to criticize GSD's actions, but to state the above is false. No need to spread rumors that are incorrect. The naam daan names have not changed. The practice of sitting in simran and bhajan has not changed.

Get your facts straight before you say things you know nothing about.

If we have developed doubts about the guru, then meditation on him is not gonna work. If we still have faith in him, then go ahead and do what you've done in the past. So those of us that have stepped back and said, something isn't right here, then I think the corner has been turned in our faith and we can either stay that way, or find a path or belief system that suits our needs. Do some research, ask relevant, pointed questions and seek the answers to what satisfies us personally, not collectively.

[Dungeness]

Stop feeling sorry for yourself.

Heartless, judgmental? In its telling, yes it is. Perhaps, he
shoulda said "I'm sorry for this pain you've endured. But, as
you know, I can only offer spiritual advice. A doctor or
mental health professional should be your guide. Go seek
that help. We're here to help each other."

The consensus is GIHF is flawed so it's appropriate that GSD
should be critiqued. But, arguably, the GIHF is always giving
spiritual advice first and foremost tailored to the specific one
who is asking. Their strengths, their needs. No one else's.

Perhaps the idea was to tweak some righteous anger as in:
"Who does that SOB think he IS! ?" so you'll begin looking for a
less hard-edged Guru, maybe a faith healer, or even more
sanely, the appropriate mental health practitioner.

I'm not trying to be a sappy apologist but just looking for an
alternative explanation that might be true or at least worth
considering. Sometimes, it's the painful jab that leads to some
needed empowerment and he was willing to be the bad guy
momentarily to make it happen.

[Brian Hines]

Dungeness, you're presuming that being "spiritual" is something different from being a decent human being. I heartily disagree. Being a decent human being is the foundation of spirituality. Absent that, it's possible to justify lies, deceit, abuse, and other things that gurus sometimes engage in.

When someone shares a serious personal problem and seeks support/advice, I've never heard a decent human being say, "Stop feeling sorry for yourself" or "That's a sin."

Yet Gurinder Singh Dhillon said those things. This shows that at least when it comes to talking about mental health issues, including suicide, the RSSB guru doesn't act like a decent human being.

Like I said, spirituality should enhance the qualities of a decent human being, not negate or lessen them. If the RSSB teachings negate/lessen those positive qualities, obviously someone should run from those teachings as rapidly as possible.

[One Initiated]

But Spence is not at Sach Khand to determine that GSD is not Sant Satguru.

[Sonya]

There’s a method to the madness. I love this song:
https://youtu.be/JILfwu5AWIQ

[Dungeness]

Yet Gurinder Singh Dhillon said those things. This shows that at least when it comes to talking about mental health issues, including suicide, the RSSB guru doesn't act like a decent human being.

Brian, I think you missed my subsequent response. Either that, or
in mental derangement, I'm mis-remembering making one.

But, as I noted on this thread, spiritual masters tailor responses to the
one asking the question. Their needs, their awareness level, No one
else's.

RSSB books document a spectrum of very different responses to nearly
identical questions and issues. It's unfair to cite outliers as damning
evidence of his being an "indecent jerk" or a menace to mental
health.

If there were a persistent pattern of put-downs in the hundreds of
questions asked over the years, then doubts would certainly arise.
Or maybe the shadow of financial crimes is greasing the path to
condemnation on all issues... in a "fruit of the rotten tree" kinda way.

If an atypically cruel or harsh answer gins up a determination to stop
wallowing in defeatism/self-pity; or to seek help from a mental health
professional; or even to give up blind faith that an all-powerful Guru
is gonna "beam me the hell outta here ", that'd be a good thing right?

[manjit]

Spence wrote: "To watch my son bury himself in a book, light novel, or Manga, in sheer delight, is my greatest please."

That's a beautiful comment, thanks for sharing! And in such moments is the real "Satguru's" darshan received :)

Sonya wrote: "it's amazing how many levels of depression there are......"

Hi Sonya - yes, I agree with all of your comment!

As you mention, it's a complex issue. I don't subscribe to Osho's reference to Tony Robbins "depression doesn't exist" as a solve-all approach, although there is an element of truth in that also imo (though to be fair, if "self" is considered to be an illusion, that doesn't leave much room for the "reality" of depression!).

There are limits to the useful application of mental techniques such as NLP, CBT, or the often skilful use of thought-loop-interruption by people like Tony Robbins, when it comes to depression (or other mental states of mind for that matter), imo.

Life, reality, being, "self" (or not!) is a complicated affair and generalisation can be a dangerous thing; people are different, circumstances are different, causes are different and the ways to heal may also be different. I think it would be naive to say the "type" of depression and the way to "heal" it would be different, say, for a 16 year old who has broken up with their sweet-heart, to a 70 year old who has lost their spouse and has terrible health problems, no money or family etc.

I can only speak from my own experience.......I know depression can be the absolute worst place to be, a living hell from which one can see no possible escape or way for things to resolve themselves or get better. One can be certain of the sheer futility, meaninglessness, lack of love etc in the world. I have been there. Knowing everyone's circumstances are different, the only thing I can offer to anyone suffering with depression is the suggestion that one cling to the hope & belief that "this too shall pass", and that one day it is not only possible, but almost certain, that you will again feel some joy, happiness, love, laughter etc, and that depression will feel like a very long distance away, and you will feel nothing but love and compassion for that prior "self", and a deep sense of gratitude for having endured all that almost unbearable sadness to get to where you are in the now, and in that you will find tremendous, almost unbearable, beauty, compassion, gratitude.

On another note.....and I do note this is a digress from the normal approach to mental health issues, but as this is a blog frequented by those with an interest in "spiritual paths" and experiences...... I think there is an intimate connection between states of deep & intense "depression", futility, meaninglessness, nihilistic phases etc, and experiences that occur through spiritual or mystical beliefs & practices. This is commonly referred to as "dark night" in western traditions.....and I personally believe this is labelled as "sunya" or void in the Indian eastern traditions such as RS (a state, stage or region in RS is often interpreted literally with-in geo-spatial terms, rather than energetic resonances across all "spaces", so here "maha-sunn" is a literal "region" in a cosmology, between daswan dwar & bhanwar gupha, whereas imo it is more a stage in a persons life that is reflected throughout their entire experience, worldly, personal, familial, financial, emotional as well as possibly visionary, ie. an experience of a visionary void in their meditation. This comes back, imo, to how unsophisticated the RS theology and teachings are).

I strongly feel, based on direct personal experience, unless one has reached the absolute depths of despair, depression, futility, nihilism, meaninglessness, lack of love from the outside world etc, one is unable to reach, comprehend and integrate the absolute heights of "spiritual ecstasy", of "Oneness", of a "love" so pure and unconditional. If you have not suffered & drunk, deeply, at the well of depression, despair and futility, then you are an incomplete human being. You have not understood reality. Your entire being has not been disassembled and put back together again with the very DNA of compassion, understanding, non-judgementalism, love etc.

This is very hard to describe........but the "One Taste" experience, perpetual joy, awe & astonishment contains within it.....in every single moment and without interruption.....the full depths of depression, sadness, horror, complete lack of love, futility. The loving embrace of a mother and the war-orphaned child crying at his parent's graveside. The gold throne of billionaires and the pile of human shit. It all has one taste; the taste of consciousness.

And consciousness is acutely aware of depression, disease, death and suffering. But consciousness also has infinite humour, infinite ecstasy, infinite love. And it's all happening simultaneously. The human brain & mind is merely a filtering factory, unable to take it all it in.

Ahh, I see I've gone off the deep end there. Better go I suppose!

May all beings be happy :)

[Lance]

It is very difficult to make an educated response about something that is heard second or third hand since this situation cannot be experienced first hand, a response would be purely subjective,
there is no context about why the statements were made or how the stories have come about, someone's view of their subjective truth can really only be experienced by the teller,
this Guru may have been practicing some sort of "tough love" and I am under the impression that he didn't say something to the effect "go ahead, Jump!"
and walking on eggshells to protect every feeling that someone may have is unrealistic, these are nothing but opinions and everyone has one,
if someone is searching for guidance, there is more than one teacher of truth on our planet and so-called disturbed individuals, shouldn't put all of their eggs in one basket, seek and you will find.

[X factor]

messed up