Summary of Singh brothers saga features misdeeds by Gurinder Singh Dhillon

Today someone sent me a link to a The Week story about the saga of the Singh brothers' financial downfall that contains several mentions of Gurinder Singh Dhillon, the guru of Radha Soami Satsang Beas who has been accused of criminal wrongdoing in this unholy mess.
Download Malvinder Shivinder Singh: The boom-to-doom saga of the brothers

You can read the entire story below. I've added some comments of my own after several sections in red italics. 

One thing I learned from the story is that seemingly Malvinder and Shivinder Singh aren't nephews of Gurinder Singh Dhillon, because the story says that their mother, Nimmi, is the guru's cousin.

I'm terrible at genealogy, but a person who is more knowledgeable than me emailed me last year, saying that the relationship of the Singh brothers and Dhillon is first cousins once removed. Some news stories say Dhillon is their uncle, and I've gone back and forth between "uncle" and "cousin" in my blog posts.

Now, though, I'm going to stick with cousin. Here's the story. I've boldfaced parts that relate to Dhillon.

LOVE AND VIOLENCE. Faith and betrayal. Goons and gurus. The boom-to-doom saga of brothers Malvinder Mohan Singh and Shivinder Mohan Singh is peppered with all these in good measure.

Once the poster boys of India Inc (their pharma company Ranbaxy Laboratories and later ventures Fortis Hospitals and Religare Enterprises had all crossed billion-dollar valuations under their watch), they messed it up big time, as their businesses collapsed in just about a decade.

Yet, as the drama plays out at the highest court of the land, it is clearly symptomatic of the many lacunae in India’s corporate regulatory framework.

It all started with money, lots of it. And greed.

On the face of it, the amount that is making the headlines—Rs 3,500 crore the brothers are ordered by the court to pay Japanese pharmaceutical company Daiichi Sankyo—is grave enough. But it is loose change in comparison to the Rs 22,500 crore the brothers are said to have blown up since they sold Ranbaxy to Daiichi Sankyo in 2008 and ventured into a blitzkrieg of business expansion into multifarious areas.

They lost control of their businesses—some sold to the highest bidder, while some were taken over by lenders. Even their sprawling bungalow in Lutyens Delhi was sold to pay the dues.

“We would now like to fight for our justice and pride... and not for economics,” the brothers said in a joint statement a few months ago. But that was before they turned on each other, even coming to fisticuffs. “He assaulted me. He injured me,” Malvinder alleged in a video he posted online, showing his injuries, last December.

A few months earlier, Shivinder had alleged that Malvinder forged his wife Aditi’s signature in some documents, but they kissed and made up after their mother, Nimmi Singh, intervened.

The seeds of disaster were sown right at the time the brothers sold their family business, Ranbaxy, to Daiichi Sankyo. Ranbaxy had made a killing in the generic drug business to become India’s most valuable pharmaceutical company. At that time, Japan was modifying its drug laws to facilitate generic drugs, and acquiring a company specialising in it seemed like a fast way in for Daiichi Sankyo. Also, Daiichi got a drug maker with access to the lucrative American market.

The brothers got solid cash, nearly Rs 10,000 crore, and they promptly ploughed a chunk of it into their new businesses, Fortis (Rs 2,230 crore) and Religare (Rs 1,750 crore), which then kicked off an ambitious acquisition and expansion spree.

A similar amount of money (one report puts it at Rs 2,700 crore) was transferred to companies owned by the family of Baba Gurinder Singh Dhillon, head of the Radha Soami Satsang Beas, a Punjab-based spiritual sect that commands lakhs of followers in northern India and abroad.

It was only the beginning of a stream of cash flow from the Singhs to Dhillon, who is Nimmi’s cousin. The brothers say Dhillon was like a father to them, especially after the death of their own, Parvinder Singh, in 1999. On Dhillon’s advice, they appointed Sunil Godhwani as the head of Religare Enterprises.

Along with the Singh brothers, Godhwani has been booked by the Economic Offences Wing of the Delhi Police on charges of cheating, criminal conspiracy and criminal breach of trust. So Gurinder Singh Dhillon's advice hasn't worked out very well, legally and ethically. 

At first, all seemed hunky-dory. Fortis grew rapidly—once even crossing Apollo to become India’s biggest hospital chain—and Religare’s multiple wings performed well. Dhillon, on his part, invested in real estate, cashing in on the spiralling land rates in Delhi’s satellite towns in 2010 and 2011. More money flowed in to the many companies floated by him from the Singhs or through a complex maze of their companies and subsidiaries.

The Securities and Exchange Board of India has found that the "complex maze" alluded to above resulted in fraudulent loans made to shell companies controlled at the time by members of the Dhillon family and close associates. A Business Today story gives some details about this.

Then, disaster struck.

As the real estate bubble burst in 2011, Dhillon’s investments came a cropper, leaving him with huge debt. The rapid expansion of Fortis and Religare, all funded by massive loans, suddenly came back to bite the Singhs as the slowdown took hold.

“Appropriate risk, appropriate growth, transparency in financial dealings and having an independent board which could question their actions were all steps that could have contained their greed,” said N. Chandramouli, CEO of the business consultancy TRA Research. A vicious cycle of mortgaging assets and shares to pay off initial debt plunged them deeper into the debt hole. According to information with the Registrar of Companies, assets worth more than Rs 15,000 crore were pledged, many of them possibly to pay off earlier debts.

To make matters worse, Daiichi Sankyo alleged that the brothers did not disclose that the US government was investigating Ranbaxy when it acquired the company in 2008.

A few months after the deal, the Federal Drug Administration, America’s powerful drug regulator, banned medicines from two Ranbaxy plants in India and launched an investigation into the company’s practices. In 2014, Daiichi sold Ranbaxy to Sun Pharma.

In 2016, a Singapore tribunal directed the Singhs to pay about Rs 2,500 crore to Daiichi Sankyo (the total amount now is around Rs 3,500 crore, including interest and legal fees). The brothers, however, delayed the payment, prolonging the wrangling and setting the stage for the denouement at the Supreme Court.

In between, the Singhs lost control of both Religare (taken over by equity investors) and Fortis (bought by Malaysia’s IHH Healthcare last year).

Religare now is seeking to get its money back, which involves tracing the flow of money that ended up in the hands of the Dhillon family.

A month ago, in a complaint to the economic offences wing of the Delhi Police, Malvinder accused his brother, Dhillon and Godhwani of criminal conspiracy, cheating and fraud. He claimed the outstanding from Dhillon was Rs 8,646 crore as of 2016, and that he was threatened by Shivinder every time he asked for it.

Malvinder also has accused Dhillon of making death threats against him.

“Shivinder initiated these actions and permitted siphoning and malfeasance of funds with the ulterior motive of gaining control of the seat of the spiritual head of Radha Soami Satsang Beas, which was promised to him by Dhillon in lieu of the financial gains,” he said. Shivinder, however, said the fraud happened while Malvinder was running the company. Shivinder had renounced his corporate posts to join the ashram. He returned in 2015.

This appears to be a lie by Shivinder, though it is possible that Shivinder did join the Radha Soami Satsang Beas ashram at some point prior to when documents show he was actively involved in corporate affairs.

“It is not about individual honour... it doesn’t look good for the country’s honour,” said the Supreme Court while hearing the case against the Singhs. Corporate India’s recent track record when it comes to payments has not been very good.

It begets the question, what needs to be done? “Corporate laws are well formed, but poorly implemented,” said Chandramouli. “It is difficult for those erred against to get justice. In a world which works solely on trust, it is important that transgressors of trust be taken to task.”

Comments

[Sonya]

“There are no secrets that time does not reveal.”
~Jean Racine

[Sonya]

Sometimes I wonder what’s going through Shivinder’s mind right now. We know where Malvinder stands and we know where Gurinder stands. It seems Shivinder is caught in the middle... time will tell.

Also hard to believe Simon and Garfunkel once broke up over the first release failure of ‘The Sound of Silence’. I like Disturbed’s recent rendition of the song and I love the name Disturbed because that’s how I feel every time I read a new report about this ongoing saga. https://youtu.be/u9Dg-g7t2l4

Silence... what a beautiful thing if you can find it.

[Spence Tepper]

Thank you Brian!

With each reading the message sinks in a little deeper.
When Gurinder moved Dera funds into Religare and began reckless real estate investment to match the property expansion internationally of the Dera, he was not acting on the highest ethics.

[Spence Tepper]

Here's another article detailing the multiple frauds and the destination of much of money...the Dhillon family and Gurinder

https://indianexpress.com/article/business/companies/daiichi-sankyo-case-fortis-healhcare-supreme-court-ranbaxy-arbitral-award-malvinder-shivinder-singh-5675625/lite/

[Sonya]

@Spence,

Wait, he moved Dera funds—actual money from the Sangat—into Religare??? I think I’ve totally missed something here.

[Sonya]

Whether one is interested in all of this drama or not, what really astounds me is that this dizzying drama spiked up and spiraled down in just a little more than a decade.

Like John Cusack and Jeremy Piven said over and over in disbelief during their reunion scene in Grosse Pointe Blank, “TEN YEARS!”

Ten years can feel like a very long time or a very short time depending upon your vantage point.

Just the past ten months alone have been a whirlwind.

[Dungeness]

Wait, he moved Dera funds—actual money from the Sangat—into Religare??? I think I’ve totally missed something here.

Me too. Where is that alleged in Brian's post?

[Patrick Gee Doggie]

"So Gurinder Singh Dhillon's advice hasn't worked out very well, legally and ethically. "

Gives a whole new dimension to the term "insider trading". Malv and Shiv --- were those boys thinking that Gurinder's advise was a sort of financial Divination procured from the Lord God Almighty Himself? Did they believe that Gurinder was the ultimate supernatural "Insider" dispensing inerrant advise? Or did Gurinder put his turban aside, put on a Bowler Hat and say "OK dudes, I will give you my advise but just as a regular guy who can make wrong choices, and mistakes. Shiv and Malv, let me make myself clear, you may win or you may lose, in either case -- my advise is NOT Divination from The Lord God Almighty. " Amen.

So how far can we devalue a Sant (thesedays --"Complete Master") without rendering his currency worthless? Ah shucks Mam he just a dude vs God In Human Form. Yee doggies, there is a chasm big enough to fit several universes in. Fortunately there seems to be no limit to the amount of Gerrymandering, rationalizations and denials that the human mind is capable of. We thought we had an immortal soul cause the Sant's said so. Now it looks like their words are about as reliable as the Venezuelan Bolivar. Well shit.

For me this has always been the core concern, the impertinent intersection of two worlds...the glamour of fame and money vs something truly noble. I do believe Charan early on saw the need to keep the two worlds (God and Mammon) separate. Or maybe he didn't exactly either? Once the thin ice starts to crack, the fissures multiply. Run for shore! Where-ever that is.

Matthew 6:24 --- have a look

[Sonya]

Is it possible Shabnam will go to jail or prison along with the Singh brothers? Clever of Gurinder to keep his name off most things but he REALLY put his wife in an embarrassing (somewhat humiliating) and dangerous position.

[Sonya]

Look, I’m all about forgiveness but if he lets his wife go to jail instead of himself then he is the ultimate douche. Sorry, my protective nature just kicked in big time. I remember my mother being in a similar situation and how much stress it caused her. It was REALLY sh*tty. Such a mobster thing to do. Who puts their wive’s name on a business when the wife has no involvement? And what would be the reason for doing that?? Just put your own name on it—as owner, Director, whatever...

OMG, now I’m really thinking about this and it’s so f’d up. I can tell I’m going to be upset about this one for a while... UNLESS she actually was running those companies and she was a cohort to all these shady money shuffling activities. But most likely they just used her.

If a man can treat his wife like that, he’s not a man. He’s not anything.

[Spence Tepper]

Hi Sonya...

"Sunny, as Sunil Godhwani is known among friends, was brought in to manage the finances of the dera during the churn that took place after the passing of Charan Singh in the early years of the new master Dhillon.

" Some old-time mutual-fund managers remember interacting with Sunil Godhwani for the investment of dera’s funds. Thus, he quickly became part of the inner circle of the new master. No wonder when the Dhillon family chose to enter the corporate world, they chose to go with Sunny."

Dera's assets are invested. By Sunhil. That mean's Gurinder's assetts, which include the Dera, are invested. Those are his holdings.

" According to the prospectus, in June 2006, 15 months before the IPO, Malvinder Singh sold 6.25 million Religare Enterprises shares to Gurpreet Singh Dhillon, the elder son of the Dhillon couple, at a par value of INR10 each. On the same day, Shivinder Singh sold an equal number of Religare shares at par to Gurkeerat Singh Dhillon, the younger son.

"Together, this amounted to around 16.4% of the post-issue capital.

" Sunil Godhwani himself got a million shares at par, amounting to a 1.3% stake. He was not the only one from the satsang; Padam Bahl, the auditor of RSSB, took a board seat as an independent director, RK Shetty, the south-zone secretary, and GPS Bhalla, the secretary of Science of the Soul Research Centre, an RSSB affiliate, were named alternate directors.

"The value of these shares multiplied as the IPO got priced at INR185 per share. During the listing day frenzy on November 21, 2007, the shares touched a high of INR600 before cooling off to INR525 levels.

" At this point, the notional value of the holdings of the Dhillon family would have been around INR600 crore. Sunil Godhwani’s holding would have been worth over INR50 crore.Religare shares have plunged to less than a tenth of their listing-day highs. Dhillon's holdings, which were pledged to raise finances for the money-guzzling realty business, have been taken over by lenders."

Apparently Gurinder has already defaulted on his realty business holdings, taken over by lenders when he could no longer pay his debts. He is no longer in a position to liquidate those assets.

https://www.rssb.org/news26.html

But he still has those fraudulent loans to pay.....

[Georgy Porgy]

Good god almighty - how many more of these articles are gonna be posted.

Trial by media. Fake news. Smear campaign. Goebbels woulda been proud of this level of propaganda.

What has this got to do with GSD? Zilch.

[Sonya]

Hi Spence,

Thanks for the detailed explanation. It’s all so crazy and sad for so many people. I guess this could have been avoided if the Dera had stayed the somewhat simple Dera that it was when Gurinder took over—without all the growth and global expansion. If they had lived simpler lives... they would have more peace right now. They wouldn’t be dealing with criminal conspiracies in the family... less sleepless nights, less worry, more time to appreciate the simple pleasures of life.

Instead there’s so much anxiety, anger and fear in both their families and the sangat in general. These are the results of choices made. The choice to keep things simple would have prevented this unholy mess from happening.

Very sad indeed.

[Brian Hines]

Georgy Porgy, you'll be unpleased to know that I'll be sharing another story in the Indian financial press later today.

Also, did you even read tihis post before commenting on it? Gurinder Singh Dhillon is a main reason the Singh brothers are in such financial trouble. The loans that were made to the Dhillon family were fraudulent. The guru's right hand man, Sunil Godhwani, orchestrated those loans after being made the CEO of Religare at the request of the RSSB guru.

Dhillon's hands are all over this unholy mess.

[Jen]

"It’s all so crazy and sad for so many people."

Nope. I don't think so. Many satsangis around the world probably won't even be aware of whats happening because they don't spend much time reading about the Dera in the Indian newspapers. As an ex-satsangi it does not move me at all. I'm just waiting for the end result, which is probably going to take some time... meh
Justice will prevail.

[Jesse]

"Dhillon, on his part, invested in real estate, cashing in on the spiralling land rates in Delhi’s satellite towns in 2010 and 2011... As the real estate bubble burst in 2011 Dhillon's investments came a cropper leaving him with huge debt."

Nice move. Putting all your money in illiquid assets after a long bull run. This is what greedy bad investors do. They get excited by what's already happened in the market and think "it's gonna keep going. I'm gonna get rich like everyone else!"

He may be God, but he's an idiotic investor.

[Sonya]

Georgy (I can’t call you by your surname... I just can’t),

Fake News? You sound like Trump. You sound exactly like Trump. I’m still curious, why did Gurinder put Shabnam’s name on so many of the business? Doesn’t he realize how humiliating this is for her? Her name is listed in every by every news outlet as if she was one of the ringleaders. Why wouldn’t he put his name? Why use her? Or is that just how Indian men in his circle treat women?

You didn’t catch me on a particularly good day. Gurinder doesn’t have much respect for women.

[Sonya]

Yes, you’ll see in my history of comments that sometimes I think he’s a fairly likable guy. But in reality that’s only in person when you’re interacting with him in a small group. However, overall he’s just like you... just like Trump. That doesn’t mean I wish him to suffer for all eternity. It just means I truly wish I had never been introduced to RSSB. I try to to forget about and totally put it out of my mind because there’s really not much good I can take away from it. But I have my husband who is a Satsangi and a constant reminder. I don’t think I would have given Gurinder or RSSB a second thought (or perhaps even a first thought) if it weren’t for all the Sant Mat books and pictures around the house. On a good day—most days—I ignore all that stuff. On a bad day, it irritates me to no end.

A few years after we were married, I actually destroyed all of his Sant Mat books and pictures. He didn’t really react—he knew how I felt about it. Even after I became a Satsangi we didn’t collect too many books. After all, Gurinder himself said to burn them. And believe me, I would have if I had a fireplace. I would love to see Gurinder take all of the RSSB books at the Dera, put them in a heaping pile and actually burn them. Seems like that’s what he wants to do anyway. It would be good for the sangat to see how he really feels about the books... their “sacred books”.

How many more stories?? I guess there will be many more stories as there are reminders.

And you don’t have to tell me I’m being a complete asshole because I already know... like I said, not a good day.

[Dungeness]

But he still has those fraudulent loans to pay.....

Spence, that's true. Some of those shells were in his name; some
weren't. So, certainly GSD makes the list of "usual suspects" along
with near and dear family members as well as others , such as
"Sunny" and the Singhs. (Cool name for a rock band or a comedy
troupe when the dust settles).

There are allegations and counter allegations. One hot from the
tabloids concerns Shivander (or was it Malva?) forging a spouse's
name. Then there are the death threats. delivered via attorneys,
or muffled telephone voices. But the lynch mobs always impute the
foul intent to GSD. When was the last time you read "GSD's Attorney
threatens Malva".

The drumbeat here, the relentless use of "he" as the mastermind is
disgraceful, unfair, and a travesty. Heck, there's even a hint now he's
a misogynist since he musta masterminded putting his wife's name on
one of the shells. Could allegations of wife beating be far behind?

By all means, relay the news stories, rail against greed and criminality,
talk of the real harm of this to stockholders and charity patients both;
critique GSD for silence, etc.

But, pause a few moments to weigh whether anyone should conduct
a Kangaroo Court, propagandize with thinly veiled words of accusation.
We've all seen it in unsubtle hints that "He", "GSD", or the "Baba" made
death threats, siphoned off money, misled the trusting, cooked the books,
refused to repay loans, etc.

Don't try to dignify this as anything other than the extra-judicial, contemptible
acts of a rabble. Please don't then sermonize afterward about grace and
forgiveness. Render unto others the fair dealing you'd want if accused of
serious crimes.

Otherwise the blog starts to reek of liquor and calls for a rope.

[Spence Tepper]

Hi Dungeness
You have made the point repeatedly that only a court of law can determine the truth and make a proper judgment.

I don't agree.

Anyone can make a determination for themselves based on the available information.

In fact it is every individual's duty to do so.

Your view is that there is not enough information to conclude any level of culpability on Gurinder's part for any of the things he allegedly did.

I don't agree.

I can't remember when there was more corroborating evidence that he took hundreds of millions in loans, some of which were fraudulent, and has not repayed.

In the article posted on the RSSB website, which I cited above, it tells us that

"Dhillon's holdings, which were pledged to raise finances for the money-guzzling realty business, have been taken over by lenders."

This article has been published on the RSSB website for months. He defaulted and therefore the lenders had to take over Gurinder's holdings.

It can't be any clearer than this. He couldn't pay his debts so the banks have taken over his holdings... That's the property and business holdings that Gurinder used to have.

No more.

It's already happened, Dungeness.

What we don't know is the level of criminality. That isn't conclusive and we do have different stories from key players motivated to shift the blame.

I agree with you on those matters.

But on the issue of talking huge loans, some of which eye fraudulently constructed, and not able to repay, and having one 's assets taken over by lenders, that's already happened. It's ancient history.

[Sonya]

“Duped”

I once shared a room with a woman at Pusa road who I got to know pretty well on that particular trip to the Dera. She was the sister-in-law of Marina and Aunt to Marina’s son who committed suicide. Apparently Gurinder had a special attraction to Marina according to this woman. Marina was very beautiful I’m told. It seems she was very confused and questioning of the path after her son’s suicide... even with the extra attention—even physical touches from Gurinder to comfort her.

Sort of reminds me of the man who has held the longest record for solitary confinement in the US. This man doesn’t look crazy at all after 26 years of solitary confinement which makes no sense at all. Yet he is considered so dangerous that no one is allowed to even speak to him when he’s being transported because he seems to have some sort of hypnotic power over people.

I don’t think Gurinder measures up to this particular man but I do know that he often brags and alludes to his ability to know exactly what a person’s motivations are and their strengths and weaknesses. In some ways he’s like the man in solitary confinement, very adept at exploiting others. It’s no surprise that he may have duped Malvinder and Shivinder. He can see through people and use that in a way to serve himself. Perhaps like Hitler... Stalin... Trump.

These people prey on both the strengths and weaknesses of others.

People like ‘Ashby’, ‘ilanovitch’... Gurinder. In world where the average person takes another at face value, there exists those who prey on those who do blindly trust and are charmed by them. All to their own detriment.

If you haven’t been “duped” count yourself lucky.

[Dungeness]

You have made the point repeatedly that only a court of law can determine the truth and make a proper judgment.

I don't agree. Anyone can make a determination for themselves based on the available information. In fact it is every individual's duty to do.

I agree it is everyone's duty to weigh available evidence but it is quite
another thing to declare "He dunnit" and act like it's all over except
the gavel coming down for the jail term.

The hubris of that position is stunning. Without legal training, without the
court's adjudication, just plunge in with commentary about guilt vs.
innocence. Lotsa back-slapping every time there's a news article or
allegation too. A rush to judgment suddenly becomes a torrent.

He has not repayed.... He defaulted... He couldn't pay his debts...

"He" again? Not his family, not "Sunny", not one of his sons, nor Shabnam?
So more correctly, the bank's repossession is of the "family assets", wouldn't
you say... with the question of culpability not clear until court verdicts are
rendered.

The litany of "He's" in the press or in a CofC blog is not a conviction.
Neither is an investigation that targets him. Nor is a trial until those
pesky, slow court verdicts appear.

I agree there's overwhelming evidence of fraud and no defensible
reason to cling pathetically to the notion GIHF's can do no wrong.
That's abdication of duty too.

But, if GIHF is human, he can be deceived too. Or is he to be damned
because the anti-theist agenda is seize on any opportunity to ridicule
him for his lack of omniscience and super-powers?

But on the issue of talking huge loans, some of which eye fraudulently constructed, and not able to repay, and having one 's assets taken over by lenders, that's already happened. It's ancient history. ...It's already happened, Dungeness.

Yes, I understand. It's happened. All of it. But leaping to conclusions, smearing
someone under suspicion, ignoring due process, exposing one's own obsessive
need to confirm an opinion at any cost and filter out all doubts happens too.

In fact, it's "ancient history". It's the Red Queen shrieking "Off with his head!"
over and over again.

[anonymous]

Someone just sent me a Q&A with Babaji in Singapore it mentions this question below - I don't know how true this is. Maybe someone can confirm.

Question: Babajee what do yo have to say about the financial scandal ?
Anaswer: RSSB has nothing to do with it. Incase you want to read we have an article on the website .
Question: Incase someone ask what should we say?
Answer: Tell him my baba was getting bored he needed some excitement and he came with a bang.

The man said are you sure I say this .Babajee says yes .
Then babajee said it’s up to you whatever you want to believe . He asked how come you have are silent on it and made no comments . Babajee said if I don’t tell you to react then how can I react.

[Brian]

Does the Dera manage in some capacity the RSSB website? I’m shocked that the Singh Brothers’ news would be posted on there.

[Anonymous]

Brian yes the Dera fully manages the rSsB site and the articles have been posted there because Babaji himself wanted it posted.

[In Search Of]

If you go to the Newspaper Articles tab on the RRSB website, you will see the older newspaper links, nothing after August 2018. So the newest and latest damning allegations and court orders referencing GSD are still not updated.

As far as GSD's wife, I personally believe that it was put in her name since the share holding was so high, GSD didn't want his name put in as a major shareholder in anything. So he most likely kept control under himself and got his wife to sign the paperwork when needed. Shivinder and Malvinder did the same on their end, when you see allegations of forging signatures of wives names in the allegations to the EOW.

In the Q&A sessions I've attended over the years, even if his responses don't make sense or deviate from actually answering the truth, the crowd laughs it off. If he gets pressed on the answer, he gets annoyed and asks the questioner with a sarcastic counter question to put the person back on his/her heels and gets a laugh from the crowd. I've seen this many times and it's neither funny nor does it help anyone.

[Grateful one]

In search of
Like you I too have attended many many Q and a sessions and I have NEVER seen Babaji annoyed. I guess it’s trie Masters are a reflection of yourself. This is why you see annoyance.

[Spence Tepper]

Hi Dungeness
You wrote
"So more correctly, the bank's repossession is of the "family assets","

Sorry but no.

From the article on RSSB's website
" Dhillon's holdings, which were pledged to raise finances for the money-guzzling realty business, have been taken over by lenders."

That's not 'the Dhillon family's holdings' or 'the Dhillons' holdings ' plural.

It's' Dhillon' s holdings ' singular.

That's Gurinder.

[Jen]

"If he gets pressed on the answer, he gets annoyed and asks the questioner with a sarcastic counter question to put the person back on his/her heels and gets a laugh from the crowd."

Sounds like GSD is trying to get people to stand on their own two feet ;)
Wanting them to think for themselves...

“It isn't that we're alone or not alone
whose voice do you want mine? yours?”

[Sonya]

@Dungeness

I believe "wife beating" in Gurinder's circle is simply know as keeping your wife in line.

I don't see any cause for mention of that... culturally there are very different norms in the Punjab.

--bzzzzzz

[In Search Of]

Hi Jen. I want him to take questions seriously. If he gets a question like that. He answers with another. Why not just answer the damn question?

Say that there are stories but they are not true, or they are true. Dont be vague about it. Why not be honest?

If he keeps getting questions about this, and I hope he gets a lot, he might actually have to answer them, or maybe he will stop Q&A and actually do a proper satsang abroad instead of a 10 minute satsang...

[Dungeness]

I believe "wife beating" in Gurinder's circle is simply know as keeping your wife in line.

I don't see any cause for mention of that... culturally there are very different norms in the Punjab.

Sonya,
I mentioned that jokingly as a possible rumor that might now
be floated against GSD since so many seem ready to believe
each and every allegation of his wrongdoing.

[Jesse]

"Like you I too have attended many many Q and a sessions and I have NEVER seen Babaji annoyed. I guess it’s trie Masters are a reflection of yourself. This is why you see annoyance."

It's strange that you see everyone around you as some sort of liar who hallucinates others as being visibly annoyed. But that's just your own reflection, Grateful One. If you were more pure you'd see that it's your own faults that you see in others.

Grateful One, you need to meditate on me more if you want the purification you seek. Your "Baba Ji" is a con artist. I'm the real thing. I'm literally the realest mf since 2Pac. Picture me Rollin'.... on a vimana all the way up to heaven.

[Dungeness]

From the article on RSSB's website
" Dhillon's holdings, which were pledged to raise finances for the money-guzzling realty business, have been taken over by lenders."

Hi Spence,

Wasn't Shabnam tied to the realty business? To what extent was
"Sunny" advising the Dhillon family? What about the Singhs?
Did they blindly make loans without seeking financial advice
from Sunny too? Who else was pulling strings... lawyers, CPA's,
esteemed board members? Or is it all on the "Baba"?

Speaking of blindness, buying that anyone is off the hook in the
court's investigation is madness. That includes GSD of course. I'm
sure there will be a few twists and turns in this grand "whodunit".

[Sonya]

@Dungeness

I know you you were joking. So was I. Considering how consistently sarcastic you are, I really thought you’d see the humor in my remark.

However, I certainly wouldn’t put it past him to smack a woman around if he could get away with it. To be fair, I’d punch him in the face if he didn’t hide behind his team of bodyguards. But then I just calmly reassure myself that in 10 or so years he won’t be around anymore. Praise be to God... until then I’ll do my best to make him despise me as much as I despise him.

[Dungeness]

He can see through people and use that in a way to serve himself. Perhaps like Hitler... Stalin... Trump....

I know you you were joking. So was I. Considering how consistently sarcastic you are, I really thought you’d see the humor...

I missed the humor. It's very easy to do when the originator earlier
compares GSD to people "like Hitler..." And, the really low blow:
to "Trump" !!

Dang, was that more of your humor? It was so nuanced. Gosh, I
am getting sarcastic, I guess. We all need more laugh more at
GSD... and life.

[Sonya]

@Dungeness

As much as you make me laugh (and genuinely you do even when I totally disagree with you) I must say, yesterday I added several unfiltered moments of truth in some of my comments. Was I being serious... 🤔? Yes. Should I have expressed my stance so passionately? No.

Dispassionate commentary (dispassionate anything) is not one of my strengths. Working on it... Perhaps one day I’ll be able to completely disagree with someone and leave questioning WTF I just said—wondering whether I was on there side or not—like you often do. 🙃

[Sonya]

@Dungeness

OK, maybe not Hitler as much... I mean I think Gurinder might have a “slight” prejudice against whites—esp. if they’re American. Purely conjecture on my part but 99% sure there’s some truth in that... I’m not sure what his definition of “white” is. Personally, the only culture I truly understand is Italian. Where my father grew up it was so racist that they didn’t even consider Italians to be truly “white” or whatever definition of acceptable they had. Never judge a book by its cover...

Anyway, I’m REALLY trying not to post more than one song per Brian’s blog articles but since your last comment I just can’t get this song out of my head: https://youtu.be/7xxgRUyzgs0

That would be on my top 5 list of songs to play for Gurinder.

I think music is what keeps people from just stabbing each other every time they open their mouths. It’s one of Creativity’s greatest gifts to mankind.

I love music and music therapy. Not in a Barry Manilow, ‘I Write the Songs’ sort of way but more like Nina Simone when she sings ‘Sinnerman’.

[Marko]

Sonya Living Colour are cool ..nice choice

[Jen]

@ Sonya,

With all your bluster and hatefulness such as "Praise be to God... until then I’ll do my best to make him despise me as much as I despise him." Be aware that this will all come back onto you. You are actually damaging yourself with your hatred. You may think its just words you are using but words have power, just like love and kindness have power. Its the law of attraction.

Anger and hatred for others will bounce right back onto the individual who is angry and hateful. Jesse must be such a miserable human being and having such a difficult life. I feel sorry for him.

Now I will stop criticising... I got triggered again!... why do I read this damn blog?!
Back to being aware and watching my thoughts ... not easy :)

[Arjuna]

@ hello Jen.

I agree with your post above!

[Sonya]

Thanks, Marko.

Hi Jim,

That was AWESOME. Lol

I never saw the movie ‘Crossroads’. In 1986 my movie experiences depended on my dad’s choices since he was the one paying... I’m sure he saw it. I think he’s seen nearly every movie ever released that wasn’t an independent art film (my mom and I still get to get her to watch the independent films).

Will add ‘Crossroads’ to my list. Looks fun. :)

And Ralph Macchio... how funny. Have you seen the TV series Cobra Kai? Karate Kid all grown up and now you’re rooting for the anti-hero. At least I am. Love the series ‘Lucifer’ as well. It has a super cool soundtrack—it’s a fairly recent Netflix series in which Lucifer is very charming even quite likeable and then he accidentally stumbles upon redemption.

Who does that remind me of... 🤔?

[Sonya]

@Jen

We all have our reasons. We all have different depths of emotion and judgement. We all have different focal points as well. I acknowledged to Dungeness that I should have used a stronger filter on my comments.

Jen, I like a lot of things about you. I really do. You share many insights and offer some pretty good advice. But I don’t believe your less opinionated than the rest of us.

The line between opinions and judgements often gets blurred. And yes, I’m guilty. I’d rather be guilty than self righteous. That’s probably coming from the part of me that grew up in a suffocatingly self-righteous environment. I decided at a young age I’d rather be “bad” than self righteous because “sinners” are usually much kinder than the “godly”.

[Sonya]

@Marko

It’s number one on my list of top 5 right now.

[Dungeness]

Perhaps one day I’ll be able to completely disagree with someone and leave questioning WTF I just said—wondering whether I was on there side or not—like you often do. 🙃

Sonya, I know what you mean. It rings a bit sappy, but,
as a Libra, I can plea the Fifth Amendment.

I think music is what keeps people from just stabbing each other every time they open their mouths. It’s one of Creativity’s greatest gifts to mankind.

I agree... whenever it comes from the heart.

[Jen]

Hi Sonya,

I suppose I'm still interested in whats happening at the Dera which is why I read Brian's blog. After all, I was initiated over 50 years ago and now I have a different point of view about Sant Mat. In many ways I am grateful because I still stick to being a vegetarian, no alcohol and drugs, live a moral life etc.

Its difficult to actually know what Gurinder is going through, my sympathy for him is because I think he is doing his best in the appointed role he was given. Its difficult not to judge, but I'd love to sit down and have a chat with him, which would help me understand him better.

I also do like you and your honesty, although your opinions are often confronting which trigger my sensitivity and yes, we all do have our own opinions. Sorry if I come across as self righteous. Can't help myself! I kinda see now how and why you like to be a rebel. Be careful though because karma can be a bit*ch.

[Jesse]

"Jesse must be such a miserable human being and having such a difficult life. I feel sorry for him."

My life is just ok. Not amazing. Not terrible. Feel sorry for yourself if you want, but there's no reason to feel sorry for me. I may not be living the best life at this moment, but I'm the best and most amazing man alive.

I'm trying to be real here. We're so scarred from a culture of politeness that weird freaks who would have been shunned 10 years are today being invited into schools to teach 5 year olds about sexuality and getting caught molesting the kids they were supposedly "teaching." You're upset that I'm insulting gurus from the most corrupt countries on earth. Why?

Something in us seeks inoffensive and civilized discourse at all times and this creating a whole world of liars. Liars who, when not selling their kids to predators, are looking for enlightenment so desperately that they'll claim to have found it the second they read some foreign words in a book filled with pictures of random turbaned dudes. There's something similar in both of these gullible mindsets that never ask questions even about the most surface aspects of the things they support.

Someone has to tell people that they're being idiots. That the things they believe have no basis in reality and also that their softness is leading to the destruction of everything they care about.

In previous eras someone would have said outright to your face that worshipping foreign book publishers with fabric on their head is a horrible and bad idea. Today somehow saying the most obvious things is seen as "hateful." There are highly influential people who use their media outlets to try to normalize pedophilia. That's how sick the world is right now. We can't call a money grabbing guru bad. We can't say something about creepy pedos in schools. We can't say anything. We're locked into agreement and politeness no matter what.

Feel sorry for kids who are growing up in this mess of new age nonsense, niceness and fearful people with brains full of fat and sugar who won't speak up to anything out of fear of looking slightly rude. The future is looking BLEAK and no amount of non-confrontational behavior or guru appeasement will save anyone.

[Jen]

Hey Jesse, "... the best and most amazing man alive".

I like your comment. Sorry for being critical. I understand you better now.

I'm also annoyed by the political correctness gone overboard nowadays and I get very upset about the whole pedophilia stuff going on. Okay! I submit to the fearless Jesse who is taking on and calling out these disgusting behaviours. I'm so glad my sons and my grandson are grown up and not going to these types of schools. Maybe this is why I am actually becoming more confrontational now because I see whats happening and the deviousness in the world. Its totally crazy imo. I agree when you say the future is looking bleak.

I try to be positive and thats probably why I hope that GSD is really doing the best he can in his position. Don't know why I get triggered and defensive when others criticise him. Maybe because we really don't ever know what any other person is like in their inner being, we just see the outer facade.

[Jesse]

I'm not fearless, Jen. I'm a coward in many ways. I probably have aspergers or something which is why I have no filter. It's not just online either. I say things that get me in trouble.

But anyway, I find negativity and criticism to be as useful as positivity. If I were positive about everything and needed to be around positivity I think I'd personally be further from whatever truth is. People in my life who were really negative often made me question wrong beliefs I had that the positive people just accepted and even nurtured.

You do your positive thing. I'll be a mean, crabby, sarcastic jerk. Together we make the world whole.

[Sonya]

Hi Dungeness,

Oh nice... a fellow Libran. I totally get it. Librans can be very hard to detect, though. I think we instinctively monitor ourselves more than others so that people don't see who we really are--not in a bad way--just most Librans feel it's important to come across as sane and balanced. Since my crazy is SO high, it's harder for me to hide it as well as you and Brian. Plus, I'm dealing with the Scorpio rising thing as well... LOL

Yes, music from the heart... The problem is, the heart is desperate at times.

[Sonya]

"Its difficult to actually know what Gurinder is going through, my sympathy for him is because I think he is doing his best in the appointed role he was given. Its difficult not to judge, but I'd love to sit down and have a chat with him, which would help me understand him better."

Hi Jen,

Wow. That was a nice thing to say about Gurinder. Maybe you will get that chance. My interactions with him have ranged from really lovely all the way to WTF was that? So, would be much better for someone such as yourself to sit down with him. Then you could share that with us.

Would be interesting...

Take care,
s

[s*]

He I am a Libran too.
Always try seeing all sides and balancing..
Venus in scorpion..
Moon in Lion.
Anyways....,I want people be more honest in general BUT that is difficult..
Things change all the time.
I see in the ''hate''of Sonya also love,why would she care so much??
Things are mostly not so black and white as they seem.
Also we change from moment to moment..nothing is so hard and fast.
In the changing we could be more honest is my idea.specially towards ourselves..
It is not healthy to think that we should not have some feelings and emotions.
Just go trough them and seeing them one learns from seeing for what they are..

[Sonya]

Hi *s,

You’re right—there is definitely some form of love in “hate” as weird as that sounds. I’ve recognized that when I’m hurt in a relationship I use anger as a form of attachment. Once I finally stop caring there is no attachment or strong feelings one way or the other. When I stop caring I stop reacting. At some point that really needs to happen here... 😐

[Sonya]

*s,
Moon in Leo makes for a good combination with Libra Sun.
Venus in Scorpio—I feel your pain... I love Scorpios—they are the easiest sign for me to understand. Leo’s both amuse and confuse. :)