Singh brothers stay out of jail. Malvinder's attorney says RSSB guru duped them.

Here's the latest news in the saga of the Singh brothers and the guru of Radha Soami Satsang Beas, Gurinder Singh Dhillon. First, a Business Today story, "Singh brothers get a breather from top court." Here's how it starts out.

The Supreme Court (SC) has reserved its order on a contempt plea filed by Japanese pharma company Daiichi Sankyo against the Singh brothers over non-payment of Rs 3,500 crore arbitration award. However, the apex court said it was deciding the issue of 'contempt of court' only. During the hearing, Daiichi told the SC that former Ranbaxy promoter Malvinder Singh had given undertaking in the Delhi High Court, and that the value of their "unencumbered assets" was only Rs 452 crore.

The top court on March 14 had asked the duo to submit a concrete plan for repaying the Japanese firm as well as consult their accountants and financial/legal advisors and appraise it by April 5. But during the hearing on Friday, the bench was miffed at the responses given by the Singh brothers.

Senior lawyers Kapil Sibal, representing Malvinder, had told the bench that the brothers had been duped and that "nearly Rs 6,300 crore has been siphoned off by some 'baba'", while requesting that properties of the contemnor be sold under the instruction of the court. To this, the bench had responded saying that the court will "only adjudicate on the violation of our orders", adding that they can sell their own properties.

Not being familiar with Indian legal language, which differs some from what's used here in the United States, I'm assuming that "reserved its order' means that for now Malvinder and Shivinder Singh aren't being served with a contempt of court order, even though they haven't paid the Rs 3,500 crore [$507 million] arbitration award to Daiichi Sankyo.

So it appears they're being given more time to come up with the money, though the story goes on to say that the Supreme Court justices weren't happy with the progress made by the Singh brothers on this front.

The "baba" who duped the Singh brothers, according to Malvinder Singh's attorney, is Gurinder Sigh Dhillon -- who allegedly siphoned off Rs 6,300 crore from companies once controlled by the brothers. That's $913 million.

It looks to me, from the last paragraph in the excerpt above, that Malvinder wanted the court to order the sale of properties owned by the Dhillon family (and maybe others also) that were bought via the siphoned/fraudulently-obtained Rs 6,300 crore worth of money.

But the court said, "No, you sell the properties on your own."

Much, if not most, of the above-mentioned money went into real estate investments made by the Dhillon family. Another Business Today story, "How Singh brothers got into trouble -- bit by bit," includes mentions of the RSSB guru and his role in the downfall of the Singh brothers business empire. Here's excerpts from the timeline.

June 2008

The Singh brothers sell their family firm, Ranbaxy Laboratories Ltd - at the time India's largest drugmaker - to Daiichi for $4.6 billion. The US Food and Drug Administration (FDA) cracks down on two of its plants just months later, a development that only snowballs into a bigger mess.

...2009-2012

Nearly Rs 2,700 crore from the Ranbaxy proceeds are routed to entities owned by Gurinder Singh Dhillon's family and companies associated with senior Radha Soami Satsang Beas (RSSB) functionaries over three years. Dhillon, better known as 'Babaji', is RSSB's spiritual guru. Of that, Rs 2,000 crore is invested in two firms, Prius Real Estate and Prius Commercial Projects.

Separately, Rs 1,750 crore is invested in Religare Enterprises (REL) and about Rs 2,230 crore in Fortis - again from the Ranbaxy proceeds - to fuel their growth. All these turn out to be fatal mistakes.

The money transferred to Dhillon and associates - estimated to be between Rs 4,000-6,000 crore, with interest, depending on who you ask - remains unpaid to the Singhs. The rapid and reckless expansion spree that REL and Fortis embark on lands them in a debt trap when the slowdown hits in 2009. That's the beginning of a vicious cycle of mortgaging assets and equity in group companies to raise loans to pay off their previous liabilities.

...November 2016

Troubles mount at the Singhs' NBFC REL, under the helmsmanship of family confidante Sunil Naraindas Godhwani, who had come on board on Dhillon's recommendation. The promoters, who had not been on REL's board since April 2010, return this month after subsidiary firm Religare Finvest writes off Rs 794 crore due to non-receipt of dues from Strategic Credit Capital associated with ABG Shipyard. The loan and the write-off are under regulatory scrutiny.

...February 2019

On February 5, Malvinder Singh files a criminal complaint against Shivinder, the Dhillon family as well as the Godhwani kin - Sunil and Sanjay (who headed loss-making REL subsidiary Ligare Aviation). In the complaint filed before the Economic Offences Wing he seeks Rs 8,742 crore owed to him by the alleged accused.

Seemingly the Supreme Court is doing its best to insure that the Daiichi award is paid by the Singh brothers. If they could come up with the $507 million on their own, surely they would have done so by now, since a contempt decree and jail time could await them if they don't pay up.

Thus the spotlight is on Gurinder Singh Dhillon and his family, since they appear to be the ones who ended up with almost a billion dollars siphoned through fraudulent means from companies once controlled by the Singh brothers. 

Given that Malvinder and Shivinder are nephews of Dhillon, as well as initiates of the guru, there must be a lot of heated discussion among members of the Dhillon family about this unholy mess. Maybe one day we'll learn about what's going on behind the scenes, if only to provide more of a basis for the plot of a Bollywood movie about this scandal.

Comments

[Sonya]

I’m happy that they’re staying out of jail. I’m really happy about that. There’s a lot of clean up left to do. But if they can work towards that, maybe they’ll eventually free themselves from the stress of the negative press and looming doom of jail time.

From the album ‘Ain’t that Good News’ by Sam Cooke,
A Change is Gonna Come... (yes, it’s spooky) https://youtu.be/nEM4VlnGNXU

[Sonya]

Here’s a better clip of Sam Cooke’s song that I included in the first comment. https://youtu.be/wEBlaMOmKV4

Music is the space between the notes.” ~Claude Debussy

Sometimes I think music is the only thing that unites us all... we’re the notes and music is the space.

I’m respectfully trying to stay “on topic”, just really love music. It’s like medicine for the soul.

I think it helps to look at things from every angle. Everyone contributes a different perspective. I’m happy that the Singhs aren’t going to jail... at least not today. Hopefully they never will. I don’t care how rich you are or how poor you are, we all have problems. And I’d like to point out that having a whole slew of first world problems in a third world country really sucks.

However, pretty much everything India is based on a caste or class system. Guess it’s not much different here in the States. If Malvinder and Shivinder or any of their associates ever wound up in jail I’m sure they would be put in an “Open Jail” which is pretty much how it sounds—open, no bars. India’s prison system is quite interesting. A huge range of prison conditions depending on your financial or political status.

[Marko]

I think this beautiful song does not fit into this finacial pingpong and misleadings.

[s*]

Why does Gurinder not pay up to them?
I do'nt understand that.
I do not understand lots of things.

[s*]

Maybe this is all good to detach diciples from their Guru on the pedestal..
Hopefully so..

[Jesse]

"I’m happy that they’re staying out of jail. I’m really happy about that. There’s a lot of clean up left to do. But if they can work towards that, maybe they’ll eventually free themselves from the stress of the negative press and looming doom of jail time."

Misplaced sympathy like this makes me sick. I've long felt like the 19th Amendment was a really destructive thing because women tend to sympathize with criminals and conmen far more than men who have an instinctual negative reaction to shadiness. Women want to vote for the shadiest man around because he's often the most emotionally manipulative talker. Another example of this is that women often get pregnant by inmates when working in prisons. "He told me the real story and I fell in love. He's not the monster you think!"

When I see the word "happy" to describe the feelings of men getting away with hurting thousands of people and destroying relationships both in business and national governments, I don't even know what to say. That is absolutely crazy. It's like those lines in the gita that say when women become unrighteous then degradation and unwanted children who destroy society follow.

When rapists escape jail time, like that Rabbi in Minneapolis a few months back, do you similarly feel joy and happiness? I sure as hell didn't. And I don't feel happy about these cult leaders evading punishment either. Seeking "good vibes" everywhere is the path the complete chaos. Lock all these guys up forever.

[Jesse]

"Maybe this is all good to detach diciples from their Guru on the pedestal..
Hopefully so.."

Some will snap out of it only to go searching for another guru who isn't currently in the process of getting caught in corruption. They'll tell themselves that they're so happy to have found the real thing this time. Later their new guru will be in a scandal and they'll go through the same process, having learned nothing.

A few might fade away from this godman shabd stuff altogether, but looking through the comments here, it seems the majority hold on pretty tight to the RSSB ideas even after knowing that the org who gave them the ideas is an absolute shonk.

[Arjuna]

@ all. Debates over - sorry.

It was a con (150 years along time). Live a good and worthy life and the real God will come to our aid.

Have a fab weekend

[Georgy Porgy]

Yip so after all that Gdam kaffuffke and 178 posts from Brian not only are the Bros innocent, but the guru got nothing to do with anything.

Looks like innocent until proven guilty is a worldwide principle. You’d swear from reading these blogs that the most heinous acts were taking place, but nothing, zilch, zero.

I mean “fake news” come on.

[Interested party]

Power corrupts; and absolute power corrupts absolutely.

[In Search Of]

Where does it say they are exonerated? They stayed out of jail on the 11th. If they are found in contempt, they can and will go to jail. The SC simply said that the Daiichi filing has been reserved for judgement, not the misconduct for not paying or coming up with a plan to pay.

If they are found in contempt of the court, which it appears so, since they haven't paid anything or come up with a plan, then they're still under some serious judgement from the courts. They don't have the money. Even if they sell everything they own, they are woefully far from the mark. They're still screwed. They just got some breathing room before the axe falls.

[Dogribb]

Jesse don't count on it.Their itentities and their mundane psychologies rely on belonging to something bigger than themselves.Good old "Willful Blindness" and "Cog·ni·tive Dis·so·nance" will conspire to ensure they stay right where they are.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kn5JRgz3W0o

[Meditator]

Wish a few of you to have live family connections in India or have stayed here. I seriously doubt if a fair justice will be done. The high and mighty among politicians and with them the well connected wealthy businessmen and public figures find invisible support even among judiciary and therefore fear of punishment is least.

Many lawyer activists have been fighting a losing battle as always against the ruling class and big business houses but judiciary just skips the issue, dilutes it or keeps it pending indefinitely. Therefore only a few are behind bars that too for political and specific reasons only. This is as much true with SC.

You may search on Prashant Bhushan, Dushyant Dave, Sanjay Hegde et al to name a few anti corruption SC lawyer activists to get an in depth knowledge of Indian legal system in place.

[Spence Tepper]

Hi Meditator
Whatever will happen has already happened. We are living in the past.
The justice system is not the ultimate measure of right and wrong. That resides within each of us, if we can sit quietly and submit to it.
Many criminals die rich and free.
Some innocent are given the death penalty.

But fraud is fraud and its wrong.

My inner Gurinder shows me that the outer Gurinder is certainly asking for assistance to make this all go away.

But my inner Gurinder tells me there is no choice. A perfect Saint takes on Karma to come here and can't leave with any at all. So it's going to be house arrest for the boss and something a little more visible for the boys. Could take some twists and turns along the way. Why? Why? Why? We can't know. We can however connect the dots using our best judgement, and continue our main efforts at personal development and self - realization.

Nevertheless, the issue of right and wrong is a separate one. As is the issue of spirituality.

But all that subjective thinking side, the ultimate truth is objective.

[Arjuna]

@ mediator - hello. These two Singh brother clowns need to go down- they are an embarrassment.

And Dhillons family and the account books of RSSB bras need to be opened up and investigated!

The Head needs to explain why God would be interested in Investments and property. When he tells his disciples that should not chase! There is no opportune moment like now!!!! Thieves

It’s bad as when the real Guru or Christ appears no knee will believe him.

Can’t believe it was all a con!!!!

[Arjuna]

@ sorry for typos above

“Bras” should read Beas.

Lol. There is a joke in there!

[Jen]

Haven't heard much from Gurinder's pov. Found this letter from GSD in newspaper article...

Heading: Baba acknowledged unpaid dues that crippled the Singh empire in May, 2018; Malvinder submits evidence to EOW

Rajeev Dubey New Delhi Last updated: February 18, 2019

https://www.businesstoday.in/current/corporate/baba-acknowledged-unpaid-dues-that-crippled-the-singh-empire-in-may-2018-malvinder-submits-evidence-to-eow/story/319799.html

Malvinder's complaint before the Economic Offences Wing has annexed a letter from Dhillon dated May 27, 2018 as evidence:

May 27, 2018

Dear Malav & Shivi,

We had sent you a document to be signed subject the Family Settlement which was verbally decided first in 2013 when I was detected with Cancer and then reiterated in 2016. For reasons known to you, the Settlement is not getting signed, nor the liabilities taken care of, which leads me to believe that you are not interested in the Settlement. The amicable way forward is then to reverse all the decisions and revert all the properties back to us with a list of all the liabilities and we can work to settle the accounts.

Signed (G.S. Dhillon)

[Sonya]

Hmmm...

Is there really any such thing as displaced sympathy? Sympathy doesn't mean they're exonerated. It just means they're lives are pretty hellish right now with all the stress and all the losses. I guess with all of my "first world problems" I've personally witnessed family in similar circumstances... I've seen the perspective of white collar criminals but I've also seen dear friends from school get themselves mixed up in criminal behavior that were immediately thrown into the worst jail/prison systems because of their color. If you're a black man in America the system works against you from the get go. It's a cruel world in many aspects. My very best friend from High School is African American (she says just say "black" for god's sake). Anyway, her brother was thrown in jail for 4 years for doing the same exact thing that another white friend of ours did and he didn't even serve jail time.

My question is, where is the reform?? Shouldn't we look at the Singh brothers and others regardless of their status and think about reform?

Reform hardly even features in today's judicial system because it barely features in most peoples' minds. Our immediate reaction is "lock em' up". It seems most judicial systems focus on punishment and pain as opposed to reform and rehabilitation. How are we going to improve as a society globally or locally if our main thought about criminals is to make them suffer?

I'm not "soft on crime" or naive, I just think judicial systems need to truly be "correctional" as opposed to institutions that reinforce criminal behavior.

If we continue hating every person that commits crimes and don't allow them to try and correct their mistakes or teach them how to be better... if all we want to do is see people who have committed crimes suffer then what does that say about us? Clearly the Singhs committed crimes (with what intention I have no idea) and the rest of the family made some HUGE mistakes or they wouldn't be in the heaping mess they are in, but why can't we give them the chance to correct the mistakes they've made... or at least try.

I think most people here are upset and want to see them suffer because of the perceived "hypocrisy" in the RSSB society. Personally, I don't think there is a single religious or spiritual organization that is immune to that. Yes, they need to correct things--do whatever they can to make it right. Quite honestly, I think every prisoner in the world should be put in an environment where they can correct what they've done or at least correct themselves so they no longer behave or do the types of things they did in the first place to wind themselves up in jail.

Almost all jails and prisons in the world release prisoners who are much more damaged and damaging to society when they come out.

Are the Singh's guilty of several things? Duh. But stop putting them or their guru on a pedestal and try to look at them as human beings. Oh, wait... that's the ENTIRE issue here. These aren't just white collar crimes being committed that we're so upset about. What really irks us is their guru/ex-guru? who's supposed to be GIHF. That puts this on a whole different level.

Is their suffering going to solve our problem's? Is it going to make everything right? Is it going to solve the problems of the people they have affected?

If they are given a chance to work towards correcting, making amends or reparations, their "victims" would actually benefit more.

[Jen]

If someone believes in some GIHF thats their problem. Who are we to judge. I've totally moved away from Sant Mat and can't understand the blame and shame game that people play. YOU gave your personal power to another and its YOUR responsibility to take it back. Not one single person on this planet is perfect and how silly it is to believe in some being who is going to save us. I prefer to have some compassion for those people who are still so needy and still trapped in their beliefs and have no compassion for those who are living with bitterness and contempt.

[In Search Of]

Hi Sonya. Great words and I agree that everyone should have the opportunity to redeem themselves, in any way they can.

But these two Singh brothers have had YEARS to make amends or repay the loans, even after being reprimanded and knowingly under scrutiny, they continued to liquidate their assets when the courts and the market regulators warned them not too.

They have not once personally said that they made a mistake, instead pushing blame on each other, their guru and others. No accountability, and Shivinder apparently lied to the SC in saying he had retired and stepped away from the business while he apparently was still drawing a salary and actively involved in the business.

Where is the accountability, the remorse, the I'm sorry, I made a mistake. The arrogance and unrepentant attitude is what gets me and leaves me no choice but to think they're only sorry that they got caught.

I'm with you. If they had just owned upto the infractions and said they will repay everything back in a set timeline, I could give them the benefit of the doubt. But they didn't, and I'm not judging them, just incredulous that they haven't had the balls to own up to it.

[Meditator]

@Arjuna

Hi. The scale of the financial fraud or mess that has been revealed thus far became possible only due to an offshore penalty levied by a foreign court and the money trail allegedly ended up at the Guru ghar. Had it been confined within Indian boundaries or a mega loan default/write off etc things would have deep buried or partly exposed by the investigative authorities on quid pro quo in connivance.

The opaqueness of the Indian system or laws which allows to hide and reveal none or less and you can easily do so by taking shield of Trusts. Even big Corporates are not immediately answerable to public who by the way is least aware. Had it been a foreign soil as USA or else perhaps it may not have been possible to initiate a wrong doing recklessly.

it is difficult if all this reading of books at RSSB and subsequent collation would be ever permitted as per Indian laws. Take care.

[Meditation]

Mr Spence Good Morning

I think Mr Brian gets to proof read your comments later when they are already posted by chance evertime. He may be in trouble akways in dissociating yourself from inner Guru or your active astral self while your physical self works exactly opposite same as the outer Guru. Anyways appreciate your sweet dichotomy that you inhabit.

But you are truthful in either forms that you work in and speak about. Way back I harboured similar thougts but like many others could not cover inner steep distances.

Regards.

[Meditator]

@ Spence.
If many of us (RSSB initiates) in India struggle to live in penury or are not wealthy it is because of Strict discipline in financial dealings n earnings and therefore most may have lesser surpluses for charity or helping others out.

Here Honest earning means humane n justified earnings.

It implies that Gurus meek and honest followers may only be able to part lesser out of their earnings and together will that feed or equate the alleged huge amount borne out of alleged financial fraud through dishonest means I assume and which they must be willing to part with as always in service of the Master including me.

If dishonest means by some of us are made to fill the empty container then how is it legitimate ethically or legally or would it not sow new seeds and who will harvest the crop if not us.

Yes, we always beg exemptions and that we would this time also for a sacred and loftier mission. Regards.

[Spence Tepper]

Hi Meditator
As is often the case, it appears to me, some of the folks living humble lives sitting in the audience are more spiritually advanced than their teacher sitting up on stage.

And a good teacher has their proudest, most humbling moment realizing it.

When they look upon the crowd, they see their superiors, and think "how can I find a way to be sitting down there among them? "

And "How did they manage to keep their lives so simple, clean and humble? How did they deal with all of life's challenges without desire to control, to own, to manipulate?"

And when he walks among them giving Darshan, he is really getting it from them, hoping to get even a glimpse from them, to see that infinite and unattached love in their eyes. That is his food now.

[Arjuna]

@ spencer - people sitting in the crowd CANNOT be more advanced that the master on stage. I don’t buy that for one iota of time lol.

You on your own cannot go within - it’s some geezers grace.

You don’t go to a dead doctors grave to ask for help- do you? I am asking as I’m not sure about you.

Your post did make me laugh so thank you for that😂

[Spence Tepper]

Arjuna, devotion and humility make anyone a Saint.
Yes, we are taught. We have our teachers. But a good teacher gives us principles. And it is sometimes common to see remarkable students go well beyond their teachers.

Don't all loving parents want their children to exceed beyond what they have accomplished?

Now, when they were children they were taught obedience, which takes upon the rule of authority. "Father / Mother knows best. "

Well that is true but only to an extent.

Add the child grows they honor the lessons they learned and respect the utility of the rules on helping them.

But it may their destiny, right from birth, to have a higher vision.

So that is why you may some people in the audience much further developed, cleaner, clear to perfection, humility and service, than the one pon the stage. It's not unusual.

A good student can learn so much from a moderate teacher.

[Mr. Curious]

To Arjuna and 777 (spirit buddies),

Just wanted to pop in to say...

Gurinder's going down, my sons!

ALL. THE. WAY. DOWN. TOWN.

The other shoe's about to drop...I will say no more.

[rudyard hk]

So gleefully stated
where you get your irrevocable information Mr. Curiosity?

[jay]

At an RSSB satsang today, the secretary announced that RSSB now has its own youtube channel, and that satsangis should only watch the videos on this channel and not any other youtube videos about RSSB. The reason? "Because people are illegally using RSSB material and making money off of it from youtube." Satsangis in attendance laughed at the crass materialism of these people seeking to make money off of RSSB.

I wondered, won't RSSB's own youtube channel be monetized? And if not, won't youtube/google still be making money by placing ads on RSSB's videos?

[Arjuna]

@ spencer and Mr curious - let us compare notes in 2 years.

@ spencer - you now give me serious concern that you have been making up stuff about “going within”.

I don’t buy your response - yes students can surpasss their masters as in the cage of Da Vinci. Not in spiritual matters - sorry don’t buy it!!!

I have come across sociopaths who argue back as you do brother.

You are dangerous brother!

[One Initiated]

Arjuna, that's right.

Spence, your ideology is not correct,
it only relates to the physical attributes, you may have a better shirt than the Master.

Where did you read it in the whole Sant Mat literature? Can you point one single book mentioning any farthest similarity of what you've projected above? Or this thought is simply coming to your mind?
It is not possible that you know and explain something and all the Masters forgot to write that in all the books till date.

for a sant mat believer, it's not hard to interpret that whatever you mentioned above is not standing a slightest chance to what Masters have been teaching and experiencing themselves.
In Sarbachan, by Soami Ji Maharaj HE mentioned that HE spent many many years at Par Brahm and then many many years at the Maha Sunn (the Great Void) - and only when the Masters helped, HE could ascend further.

If you are not grateful towards your own Master, that's then 100% sure that you've not crossed the Void. And you belonging to a lower realm and evaluating and judging the Master from Sach Khand is simply absurd.

If you can not prove your point then you are actually misguiding many readers here.

As simply as in one line from AdiGranth: "Guru bin gat nahin"
i.e. No speed without the Master.

You are probably considering yourself the wisest and clearest amongst the crowd.

To me your stand and perspective is actually sounding quite egoistical.

[Spence Tepper]

Hi Arjuna

You wrote
"I have come across sociopaths who argue back as you do brother.

You are dangerous brother!"

And One Initiated

You added
"To me your stand and perspective is actually sounding quite egoistical."

You might as well just assume as much.

But to the particulars, if you can attribute perfection to the Master, even in light of the corruption, do you not see the Lord Himself in every act of humility, both inside and outside of Sant Mat?

At least come to my level, however meager you judge it to be. At least come that far, to Ahimsa.

Then we will have nothing to say to teach other but welcome.

[Spence Tepper]

One Initiated, as you requested :

"23 Then Jesus said to the crowds and to his disciples: 2 “The teachers of the law and the Pharisees sit in Moses’ seat. 3 So you must be careful to do everything they tell you. But do not do what they do, for they do not practice what they preach. 4 They tie up heavy, cumbersome loads and put them on other people’s shoulders, but they themselves are not willing to lift a finger to move them.

5 “Everything they do is done for people to see: They make their phylacteries[a] wide and the tassels on their garments long; 6 they love the place of honor at banquets and the most important seats in the synagogues; 7 they love to be greeted with respect in the marketplaces and to be called ‘Rabbi’ [Guru, Teacher] by others.

8 “But you are not to be called ‘Rabbi,’ [Guru, Teacher] for you have one Teacher, and you are all brothers. 9 And do not call anyone on earth ‘father,’ for you have one Father, and he is in heaven. 10 Nor are you to be called instructors, for you have one Instructor, the Christ. 11 The greatest among you will be your servant. 12 For those who exalt themselves will be humbled, and those who humble themselves will be exalted."
Matthew 23: 1-12

"Sister we are all following Christ. "
Maharaj Charan Singh

[Arjuna]

@ spencer - you are lethal and a threat to anyone who seeks God ! Say no more!

Your mind needs looking at by a trained doctor !!! Warlords argue back like you do- hey I should know !!!

[Arjuna]

@ spencer - are you dumb?? Off course Huzur Maharaj would have said - sister we are all following Christ!

He ain’t gonna say - he isn’t gonna say sister I am Christ!!

Goes to show your spiritual progress!!!!!!

Ps my curious sounds like a Twat too!!!

[Jesse]

Arjun. You're not in the military lol. Stop saying this.

You're online here every day for years contradicting yourself about your spiritual beliefs and rarely making a relevant point, and now saying that you're fighting warlords or something.

I'm calling b.s.

You don't know warlords. You've changed your story multiple times because you're not in the military but people here are too nice to point it out to you.

Please find a better way to troll.

[Jen]

@ Spence,

In a previous post you stated "Our consciousness is reborn all the time. And in the case of Alzheimers', can be destroyed altogether."

I'm wondering if in your work you are dealing with Alzheimer patients? This may explain why in your comments you reveal so many differing viewpoints. Is it because you adjust your pov when you are dealing with people who have different mindsets? From your statements its not very clear exactly what you believe in.

I often wonder who is the 'real' Spence?

[Spence Tepper]

Hi Jesse
I don't think this is our Arjuna.

[Spence Tepper]

Hi Jen
Each of us is kept going, remade instant by instant.
What we think is our belief is generally whatever we recall it is.

But it could be anything. If you woke up tomorrow with Hillary Clinton's memories you would carry on as the best Hillary Clinton you could manage.

[One Initiated]

Arjuna
to you and everyone, it's better to create a typepad profile and login with that before commenting, it will certainly be a more authentic way of posting comments. As the commenter name would be a link to the profile and can't be impersonated by anyone else.

As soon as you are disagreeing with Spence, he mentioned that the comment above was not written by you. that expression from Spence was disappointing.

Spence,
You've failed to prove your words, none of the points you mentioned above saying anything related.
Also the last line from Maharaj Charan Singh Ji, is not at all mentioning even a glimpse of that.

Any other excerpts from SarBachan?

You did mention more than once to others about being affected by mental health problem, I am now concluding that possibly is the case with you? (honestly, not at all trying to offend you, but I want to know if you have any such history?)

[Brian Hines]

One Initiated, I published your comment above, but I find it disgusting. Consider yourself warned: stop with the personal insults or you won't be having any more comments approved by me.

[One Initiated]

Brian,

I find your blog and Spence comments disgusting. Still I allow you to take some of my time from my online reading occasionally.

Isn't it ironical that you only find believers' comments offending?

Just go through all the comments and start marking them offensive without reading the commenter's name and then do the maths.

That's entirely your right to approve/delete comments or ban the commenters.

[Dungeness]

But it could be anything. If you woke up tomorrow with Hillary Clinton's memories you would carry on as the best Hillary Clinton you could manage.

Gremlins can implant false memories too, Is it any wonder emails get lost ;)

[Mr. Curious]

One Initiated - Why would you, or any "believer" for that matter, come here just to waste your time and be disgusted? I give you more credit than that. I think it's something else entirely.

A part of your brain survived the cult conditioning process and aches to flex its muscles and think critically again. Unbeknownst to you, that piece of gray matter is leading you here like a guide dog leads the blind.

Despite how you curse this "place," we welcome you. Many of us remember how you feel now.

[Bloom]

Brian although i dont even like Ones comments but man how you say his comment is disgusting and insultiong but you did nothing when Jesse said he would go to Manjits funeral and laugh at ther loved ones. If you dont see this and you apretiate both Jesse and Ones comments you are deeply Deluded.

[Brian Hines]

Mr. Curious, I think you've hit on an important truth. This blog does indeed attract religious believers who recognize that the faithless truth being shared here is much more valid than the dogmas they've been consuming.

Like you said, they can't stay away, but their religious conditioning prevents them from "coming out" openly, so they have to pretend that they're disgusted by what actually attracts them.

Weird? Yes. But not nearly as weird as the religious beliefs that this blog is helping them to give up. Subconsciously at first. Yet once the seed of truth is planted, it will sprout in their religious brains at some point.

[Spence Tepper]

Hi One
Please point to any writing of the Masters that encourages the sort of personal character attack you have engaged in.

To say I've had no mental health issues would be an insult to those who do. They also deserve not our pity, but our company and support.

I think the proof of what I've written is up to the reader.

The idea that an individual can attain the status of their teacher, even exceed it, is the point of every human teacher. That is their shining moment, One.

To presume your teacher is so much more they are unattainable, that is understandable in the subjective world of love.

But in the objective world it isn't truthful. And it shouldn't lead to attacking anyone. And it won't help you make progress in meditation. It actually becomes an excuse for lack of effort.

In the same dialogue cited above, Maharaji also said

"Sister, don't put me up on a pedestal. I'm just like you, and I'd be sitting with you in the audience if I could."
Maharaj Charan Singh

Try to understand the objective truth in these words. It is certainly not anyone's place to re-write the direct order of the Master.

But this is how religions grow.

[s*]

Yes could be well true Brian.
I was also helped some years back now by David Lane in ''Radhasoamistudies''
David said often about the guru he loved so much really!!.. ''it is all too human''or he is all too human''
I enjoyed that because actually I knew that,but did'nt get that at the same time.
It costs time..I know that.
I have been over 52 years initiated the last 10 years I was doubting more and more.
So I read here and radhasoamisite(not David anymore,but James Bean..
It was /is healing to me..
So I am thankful to David Lane and you for your help to ''awaken''