I just made this comment

I just made this comment to someone who tried to justify the guru of Radha Soami Satsang Beas' unfeeling response toward people with suicidal tendencies. See here and here. 

I'm curious if anyone disagrees with what I said. It sure makes sense to me.

Dungeness, you're presuming that being "spiritual" is something different from being a decent human being. I heartily disagree. Being a decent human being is the foundation of spirituality.

Absent that, it's possible to justify lies, deceit, abuse, and other things that gurus sometimes engage in.

When someone shares a serious personal problem and seeks support/advice, I've never heard a decent human being say, "Stop feeling sorry for yourself" or "That's a sin."

Yet Gurinder Singh Dhillon said those things.

This shows that at least when it comes to talking about mental health issues, including suicide, the RSSB guru doesn't act like a decent human being.

Like I said, spirituality should enhance the qualities of a decent human being, not negate or lessen them.

If the RSSB teachings negate/lessen those supports of positive qualities, obviously someone should run from those teachings as rapidly as possible.

Comments

[Babu raj]

Curiosity killed the cat, but given all that you have seen in RS via Gurinder, etc., have you written
to the Dera to have your book LIFE IS FAIR taken out of circulation? It would seem that you would quite disagree with that title, since if anything life is unfair particularly in the Darwinian sense. Thanks for keeping us up to date on the latest news. It is much appreciated

[Brian Hines]

Babu raj, I continue to believe that life is fair. It operates by natural laws of cause and effect. I still agree with most of what I wrote in Life is Fair, aside from the supernatural parts about past lives and karma continuing through reincarnation.

I still strongly believe in vegetarianism, having been a vegetarian since 1970. So I'm glad RSSB is publishing Life is Fair. I known that some people have become vegetarians because of the book, including the Bollywood actor, Shahid Kapoor. Learning that made me happy. See:

https://hinessight.blogs.com/church_of_the_churchless/2013/05/i-changed-a-bollywood-actors-life-turning-him-vegetarian.html

[Babu raj]

Thank you Brian for your answering my question. My second question, Are you worried that your book may lead seekers to follow the RS path? I understand the point about vegetarianism, but not sure about how life is fair, when so many people are born in impoverished conditions and born with all sorts of diseases. Doesn't that very title, life is fair, give the wrong impression, especially as you say it also mentions karma and reincarnation? Perhaps a new edition, without the supernatural material? Sorry to pester you with so many questions.

[Spencer Tepper]

Decency is a reflection of spirituality, when spirituality is understood to be the subjective experience of something transcendental.

We call it divine.

So if we experience the Lord, then obviously, the Lord loves everyone. There can be no discussion of shame or rejection in the presence of the Lord.

The issue, however, is for us to rise to that standard.

It's simple, when excuses are no longer accepted.

And no one is condemning Baba Ji.

We just want him to own up to his own deeds, pay his bills, and join the rest of us in the human race.

Really, why is this so difficult for anyone?

Does he need to be God? Can't being just a good brother suffice?

Of course, the shoes of a good brother are very large to fill.

[Sonya]

Baba raj,

Gurinder really likes the ‘Life is Fair’ book. He says all the time that you get what you deserve. And GSD will get what he deserves. Watch this Play play out.

[La Madrugada]

Hi Brian,

You are right, imho about spirituality:

In modern times the emphasis is on subjective experience and the "deepest values and meanings by which people live," incorporating personal growth or transformation.

Declining membership of organized religions and the growth of secularism in the western world have given rise to this broader view of spirituality.The term "spiritual" is now frequently used in contexts in which the term "religious" was formerly employed.

[anami]

Sometimes I think "No more Mr Nice Guy" is the trending model of leadership these days. Therefore, it's what the Age demands, even of a Satguru. Remember the story of the pig who turned down an invitation to Sach Khand because there'd be no mud to wallow in?

[Sonya]

anami,

Yes, the "No more Mr. Nice Guy" model is trending among Dictators and primitive thinking people. Actually, trending isn't the right word because that's how it's always been among history's worst leaders. It's "eat or be eaten" in their world.

GSD/Kal can run his little kingdom however he sees fit. It doesn't mean any of us have to take part in it, though. Besides, when was Gurinder EVER the "nice guy"?? That's sort of always been his shtick--being a complete dick... "Gurinder the Ruinder" and the ever so popular "Grinder"

[Spence Tepper]

Hi Anami
There is a lesson to be learned about "No more mister nice guy."

Generally, when you put forth harshness, it returns to you.

So now we have a whole bunch of little wanna be "No more mister nice guys".

But my suspicion is that folks who say "no more mister nice guy" were never nice guys at all.

[jay]

While I side with those who felt a guru let them down, I also sometimes find it difficult to judge their accounts of what actually transpired between them and the guru. There have been times in my life when someone called me out on something I was doing or thinking and it "burst the bubble" of my dilemma. Also, there are many ways of how someone can say "stop feeling sorry for yourself." I wasn't there to hear it. A guy who was a follower of Darshan Singh told an account of Darshan flying into a rage about something. Was it really a "rage"? Hard to say if you weren't in the room.

Also, whatever professional counseling one may get on suicide prevention, it's still going to lead to the suffering person making the conclusion that he/she needs to stop feeling sorry for themselves in order to get past their suicidal ideation.

I suicide a "sin"? In my heart of hearts I think it is. Am I being glib here? No, because I've thought about suicide more than a few times, and the intuition that it's an act that's contrary to the plan of the universe or Gop or the Dharma - -that it's a "sin," is very strong in me. Perhaps it's because I was raised Catholic.

[Dungeness]

When someone shares a serious personal problem and seeks support/advice, I've never heard a decent human being say, "Stop feeling sorry for yourself" or "That's a sin."

We've all heard that remark, or equivalent, made when we were
wallowing in defeatism or self-pity. Are you saying a therapist
wouldn't under any circumstances --no matter what the broader
context, tone of voice, assessment of state of mind, and after
fully considering the most impactful way to help the subject--
do exactly the same?

Or is this just a hunch based on blog testimony that GSD must be
routinely insensitive and cruel. As I made clear, a Guru --any
Guru-- should be critiqued for his behavior and remarks. That's
totally justified.

But it becomes stunningly judgmental and unfair when the tenor
of the blog is to smear relentlessly, to conflate innuendo with fact,
to declare anyone guilty --not of a lapse-- but of "not being a
decent human being", and certainly, as happens so often on
this blog, to typecast anyone as a greedy, cruel scumbag to
advance a vitriol-fueled private agenda.

[Dharam]

Blogger Brian
What is wrong in saying," Stop feeling sorry for yourself' anx ' Suicide is a sin."
I think there is no indecency in it,He means to say that one should not feel sorry for oneself and should be satisfied by one's situations of life and deal with them boldly.One shoud never think of a suicide because it is a sin.
What is wrong in it?
Brian,you simply want to find fault in the Guru.You served the Guru for many years and now want to criticize to balance the accoount.That is why I requested you to change the sub head 'Radha Soami Satsang Beas ' of your blog to 'RadhaSoami Satsang Beas Critics.' and to post your own photos instead of RSSB Master' s.

[Brian Hines]

Dharam, almost always criticisms of Gurinder Singh Dhillon don't come from me. They come from other people, which I then share on my blog. I don't control the Indian financial press, and I don't control the many people who have either emailed me with messages critical of the RSSB guru, or leave critical comments. If Dhillon wasn't doing so much stuff that is wrong, there wouldn't be so much criticism of him.

[Sonya]

Once and for all, I was not feeling sorry for myself in the very least when I asked the question.

I was simply trying to determine if the actions of my past were what created my panic attacks on a karmic level. I wasn’t feeling sorry for myself at all. I was trying to take responsibility for my problems and understand better how to handle them. I just wanted to find out from GSD if the suicide attempts might have been the cause. That’s all.

And it wasn’t just what Gurinder said, it was how he said it and why he said it. I know exactly why he took that opportunity to attack me. I know exactly why he was angry at me to begin with and he knows too.

That’s all I’m going to say about that. The last thing I have to say to Gurinder is that if he had acted like a true guru from the beginning things would not have turned out the way they did. He had his reasons but I can assure you they weren’t spiritual ones. All I can say is I’m glad it’s over and that he is no longer in my life. I don’t have depression or panic attacks anymore (which is miraculous) because I’ve left him and Sant Mat for a much better philosophy. The few times after that incident that I actually considered giving him/Sant Mat another try I started feeling the anxiety again which was a strong warning to me not to go back. Maybe it was in fact a higher power that wanted GSD to behave that way because being around him and being involved in Sant Mat was impeding my spiritual growth... and quite honestly making me feel miserable.

I just simply do not believe in the teachings of RSSB anymore and that is why I’m so much happier. My only concern now is how much he may be hurting others.

[Sonya]

I won’t thank Gurinder for acting like a jerk. I’ll thank God for showing me that Gurinder is a jerk.

[Meditator]

Say if Lord wishes to be born in a family of dacoits and criminals or still further why are we the way we behave so differently from others with each possessing different analytical and sane/bane qualities etc. We have no answers except for the things are made to rest on biological insinuations that are responsible.

Likewise we may not expect Him to behave and speak the way decency demands but He who is accessible to a few of us inside would better qualify to say about the said indifference towards a sensitive issue by His highness
Even though it also is documented in the books that whosoever comes across a mystic will not be harmed irrespective of he/she got engaged in plain talk or an abusive talk or appreciated by Him. On the contrary those who may have been given a slur or abuse will bear fruit.

[Dharam]

@Sonya
Master replied your question with anger,which you did not like, but He made your panic attacks fine by His grace which He transferred to You by Anger.That is great.That is His way.
My best wishes to you.May God keep you healthy always.
That is how the Master gives His grace by His sweet voice or by His angry voice or just putting a Drishti with His Eyes.You believe or not,it does not matter.

[Sonya]

I... DO... NOT... FEEL... SORRY... FOR... MYSELF.

How much clearer can I make it???

Gurinder is out of my life and I am very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very HAPPY!

I had to type it like that because for some reason what I’m saying just isn’t getting through to you.

I couldn’t possibly be more blessed right now.

[Jesse]

A lot of you, including Brian, don't seem to realize how backward India is. Much of what we expect or think is "ethical" is totally foreign there and the people find it to be weak or naive. Heartless know-nothing gurus are the closest thing to mental health experts that the majority of their population will ever know.

They don't have ethics like we do. If I listed here the deranged things I've personally seen in India it'd make your jaw drop. If you understood that all of it, including public violence against children, is totally acceptable, you'd probably cry while they explained to you why the kid "deserved it."

Expecting a random Indian spiritual guru to in any way live up to the lofty morals of even an average westerner is a fairy tale. It'll never happen. They operate under a totally different system where compassion has no place at all.

[Sonya]

BTW, which one was Jagat Singh? I never studied up much in the history...

Jaimal
Sawan
Sardur
Charan
Gurinder

Are those the 5? Just curious.

[Brian Hines]

Sonya, Jagat Singh followed Sawan Singh. Had to break up the family inheritance lineage of the guruship, since Sawan Singh is related to Charan Singh who is related to Gurinder Singh.

Kind of strange that of all the billions of people in the world, three relatives supposedly were best qualified to serve as God in Human Form. Pretty clearly, Gurinder Singh is failing miserably at living up to this title.

[Sonya]

It’s my ex-husband’s birthday today. We have always remained good friends and I love him like a brother. He has an irreverent sense of humor and I’ve written a letter that is the sort of thing that would make him laugh. He’s atheist-ish... not sure whether he should go agnostic just in case it turns out there really is a God. And of course, he has always thought RSSB is a cult and that gurus are ridiculous.

Not sure Brian will publish this because some will most definitely find it offensive. Since I’m not terribly religious, I found it very funny and really needed a good laugh.

Dear Soami,

I regret to inform that you have been eliminated from further consideration as Mr. Right.

As you know the competition is tough and you failed to make the cut. I wish I could say I wanted to remain friends. I don’t. It’s not me, it’s you.

Bye Bye,

Radha

P.S. I took the dog. He hates you.

[Jen]

Hi Sonya,

There is another Jen posting here because the last message was not from me... the usual 'Jen'. What the!

[Jen]

Hi Sonya, just checked this thread and found these two messages from this other Jen.

"Sonya it sounds to me like you are using This blog as therapy to justify your choices. Stop feeling sorry for yourself my dear."

Posted by: Jen | April 23, 2019 at 07:16 PM

"Sonya we get it repeating it again and again to make yourself believe it is unnecessary. You seem to be screaming one thing and implying another in your comments."

Posted by: Jen | April 23, 2019 at 09:31 PM

Not from the usual Jen (me) Someone you know perhaps?
I will stop posting here... over and out...

[Spence Tepper]

Hi Jen
I don't think this is about Sonya.
I think it's about Gurinder.

But it may just be about each of us.

If we try to psychoanalyze Sonya's weaknesses, but attempt to find every excuse for Gurindar's abuse, even to blaming the victim, I think that reflects on us.

Let's try the opposite. Let's try to figure out what's wrong with Gurinder and find every excuse possible for Sonya's divine teachings.

Because she is right. And I think she's going over this again and again because she knows deep down she's right. And this repetition is really for everyone else's benefit.

Thank you Sonya Ji!

[Jay]

Charan was the only rssb guru to appoint a relative as his successor.

[Sonya]

Jen,

“If I had a world of my own, everything would be nonsense. Nothing would be what it is, because everything would be what it isn't. And contrary wise, what is, it wouldn't be. And what it wouldn't be, it would. You see?”
~ Lewis Carroll, Alice's Adventures in Wonderland & Through the Looking-Glass

[Spence Tepper]

Hi Jay
You wrote
"Also, whatever professional counseling one may get on suicide prevention, it's still going to lead to the suffering person making the conclusion that he/she needs to stop feeling sorry for themselves in order to get past their suicidal ideation."

No that is not correct. Quite the opposite. Therapy will help the patient to understand the legitimacy of their pain, and their own inner power to let go of those notions that were burdening them. The pain is real and has a real cause, but it is not insurmountable.

However, to purpetuate the notion that God is angry with you actually inflates the cause of the pain to a position of overwhelming, uncontrollable and harmful power. That's making the situation worse, not better. It isn't unusual to have suicides around people who carry immense authority for the same reason.

"No one should give another human being that kind of power. "
---Zen Master Jen

The first step to preventing suicide in this case is to outright reject the false and disabling notion that Gurinder is perfect or has anything useful to say, and can do no wrong. That is crazy making.

No, Gurinder has behaved like a jerk and is not a true Sant Sat Guru. He should pay his bills and start acting like a decent human being. But don't hold your breath on that. He has so many sycophants to keep him locked up in a pretty prison of ego, possession and flattery that his capacity or desire to escape that prison is slim to none. And Slim just left town.

[Sonya]

Jen, I’m not attacking you or criticizing you. My posts on this blog are just me expressing my feelings. I respect you and I think you are a good person.

Did you know the United States ranks 48 on the list of countries with the most free speech? I just found that out today and was shocked and horrified.

Anyway, I realize it bothers you when people “attack” Gurinder and I can’t do anything about that. Sometimes when one is trying to break away from an unhealthy situation they need to express themselves. All of this is not an attack on you. It’s just one of the few freedoms we have left—“freedom of speech”.

[Brian Hines]

I unpublished the fake Jen's comments. It's unfortunate when a religious person stoops to imitating a regular commenter just to insult someone else. Very loving and spiritual. NOT.

[Sonya]

Hi Jen,

Phew! I was like??? What did I do to her? 😂

[Sonya]

The “Stop feeling sorry for yourself my dear” line gives me a pretty good idea of who wrote it. 😂 😂 😂

[Spence Tepper]

Hi Dharam
You wrote
"What is wrong in saying," Stop feeling sorry for yourself' anx ' Suicide is a sin."
I think there is no indecency in it,He means to say that one should not feel sorry for oneself and should be satisfied by one's situations of life and deal with them boldly.One shoud never think of a suicide because it is a sin.
What is wrong in it?"

There is plenty wrong with this approach.

But it starts with what Sawan Singh wrote, and that is this, it is a sin to hurt the feelings of anyone.

Now why would you tell someone suffering and in pain that they are wrong for feeling this way?

Do you not see that this is only adding to someone's pain?

You are simply distancing yourself when you need to be right there with your friend.

I think people say that hurtful things because they cannot bear such pain themselves. They have no capacity to bear that pain. And therefore their capacity to be a true friend is severely handicapped.

For if they did, they would share in that pain, acknowledge its reality, and help their friend find another way out together.

We can only move as far as we can see, Dharam. If we are blinded by pain, we need first to have our friend understand where we are and what we are experiencing, and to share that with us, so that we know they are there with us, and through their companionship, we learn to understand this place more clearly. That is the only way they can help us out of that place.

Simply saying 'you are wrong for being there' is really Gurinder rejecting that part of himself. It has nothing to do with the person suffering, just as your comments have nothing to do with the person suffering, only your own inability to be there for your friend when they need you.

[Sonya]

Dear Gurinder,

Please stop reading this blog. It’s not all about you. I mean, sometimes it is. Actually, a lot of times it is and I guess that’s why you like it. Perhaps, you could stop giving us so much material to write about.

As you can tell some people who comment here regularly are eager to defend you. Some, not so much. More often than not you will find many of the comments offensive. Although, from what I’ve gathered you seem to have pretty thick skin—probably because it’s not orange. I’m assuming you don’t have orange hair either but I can’t be certain because I’ve never seen it. And that’s just fine.

I’d like to thank you, though, for not having a twitter account. That would be hell. I’m also appreciative of the fact that you don’t wear long red ties. The turban is acceptable. It adds character.

One last thing, I’m not sure if you are color blind or you just really love the color red. The Deracotta color you’ve painted on every single building at the Dera makes me think you’ve ever seen a rainbow. If not, try and find one. There just might be a pot of gold at the end which would come in really handy right about now.

Sincerely,

Notgoingtostop

[Spence Tepper]

It is not unusual that a fake Jen follows a fake guru

[s*]

Freedom of speech is very important!
It is communication
Communication gives freedom and possibillity to real Love and understanding.
Not in a fake way but in a very real way.
That gives a genuine connection.
It would be good if Gurinder could also talk here with us.
That he had the chance to explain everything about what and why he says and does things he does.
That would become a very interesting talk.
All the why's...to see hear and understand,just as humans..

Did like becomming the Guru?
Did he hate it?
What was he thinking,maybe the same as Charan..
The shock omg I know I am not what all the others think of me right now?

Why was he bussy with the money thing?
Is meditation and being alone boring to him??
Does he really like to be adored??
Maybe he totaly confused about lots of things.
He had a severe cancer he did not go away from the Gaddi even when people were shocked to see him that way.
What does he think of all the critics here.
Maybe he finds it interesting.
Maybe he is scared,also about the money thing..
Who is he what does he feel what does he think??
Maybe he is very much dissociated!
How can he handle the fam scandal.
How is his relation with his cousin Nimmi??
What about their faith right now??
Even in Maharaji because of all this??

[Nick GB]

At the very least he ought not be providing that kind of 'advice'. Take out the moral judgement of GSD and you just have a 'work' related issue. The standard guidance in the UK for employees approached by someone expressing suicidal tendencies to at least let a professional know; social services/police/NHS. There is a certain duty to override the person's wishes for 'keeping it quiet' if they suggest that. Either way you are encouraged to give professionals the heads up early on. Obviously all this differs if it is within a friendship and/or family environment. I was thinking of the work based setting mainly. By the way in response to earlier threads, Nick is my name and i live in the UK.

[Dharam]

Sh.Gurinder Singh Dhillon is the most caring Guru in the history of Beas and Santmat.How can people who have left the sect and joined critics' group know as to how caring the Guru is! Only true disciples can know the value of Guru.
Manmat people do not need any guru,Their mind is their most dominant and most caring guru.They do not need any other guru.

[La Madrugada]

And no one is condemning Baba Ji.
We just want him to own up to his own deeds, pay his bills, and join the rest of us in the human race.

@ Spence Tepper,

Hi Spence,
Would you , please, stop writing WE in your comments, not all of us share your opinion and i do not like your preachments at all.

[spencer tepper]

Hi Dharam
When defending Gurinder requires you to attack those who are in pain, you have lost the spirituality.

Yes, people do need leaders, models, friends. There would be no commentary here if they didn't.

But who is their good friend?
Not someone who adds to their worries and troubles.

That is pretty simple.

[anami]

When I'm GIHF, I pledge to annoy everyone on I-95 by driving the posted speed limit.

[Austin Jen]

I have been reading on this site for a while but posted for the first time and my posts got deleted. My name is Jen and I live in Austin Texas. Why don’t you look me up? You have no idea what my beliefs are but still you deleted my comment because you thought I am someone else. Didn’t even ask or wait to confirm from me. This is what you do with all the information on this blog. You go with the assumption you form and don’t wait to confirm anything. Intrestingly Sonya thinks she knows who I am but in reality I have never in my life met her or she met me. The same way she KNOWS the reason she got the answer she did but it’s not reality. Brian I know you won’t post this as it doesn’t agree with you but I still had to put it here.

[Dungeness]

Now why would you tell someone suffering and in pain that they are wrong for feeling this way?

Dear Spence,

Feigning disapproval or even anger could be the therapist's own calculation
to kick-start the subject out of a dangerous malaise. Sometimes only a true
friend will do it.

[Sonya]

anami, I have to admit that was pretty funny... LOL

[Sonya]

Hi Jen from Austin, I used to live in Austin for a long time... so pretty sure I know who you are. 😂 😂 😂 And I don’t know if people realize this but but your posts are connected to an IP address. Since I’m in the consulting biz and most of my clients work in cyber, I can tell you very little is truly secret.

That said, how about a new handle like Austjen or JenTex or Jenny, Jennifer... NEJ

G’day!

[Blogger Brian]

Austin Jen (who used to be known as the "fake Jen"), your comments were unpublished at first because they were causing confusion with the "real Jen" who has been commenting here regularly for a long time.

I've changed the name on your comments to Austin Jen, though I noted from your IP address that you are leaving comments from a server in Menlo Park, California. Nonetheless, since you said you live in Austin, Texas, whether or not this is true I used Austin Jen for your new name.

Since your comments were attacking of Sonya, and they didn't sound like the "real Jen," I'm sure you can understand why it was a reasonable conclusion that someone was imitating "real Jen" to stir things up. But it's good to know that you just want to share your views on my churchless posts.

Please use the name "Austin Jen" if you leave any additional comments. Also, it is helpful if people put in a consistent email address in comments, even though the address isn't shown publicly. The "real Jen" does this, so that made it easy for me to see that you were not that person.

[Spencer Tepper]

Hi Dungeness:

You wrote:
"Feigning disapproval or even anger could be the therapist's own calculation
to kick-start the subject out of a dangerous malaise. Sometimes only a true
friend will do it."

While Gestalt Therapy, which is the codified version of what you have indicated, was popular at one time, a lot of research has disproven it. It's not a good approach.

Bullies like to excuse their abusive behavior by saying "You needed the shock"...

That doesn't actually work.

What has proven the most effective therapeutic intervention is active listening. It's more effective than most forms of therapy, and in relationships research it is one of the the hallmarks of lasting and positive friendships.

Think about it. Simple respect, acceptance and interest. Its much healthier.

Bullies are always defending bullying.

But when you must blame those who suffer to defend a bully, well, that is sad.

The role of a true Master is to help lighten your burdens, not add to them.

That doesn't mean tough love isn't also part of the formula. But it only works if you understand this is their expression of love.

And here is why. No one actually needs to "beat it into you." The truth is already in you. It's just a matter of being objective and dispassionate. Then you can see it for yourself. And that is the only way out of a bad situation, where you see the way for yourself.

So a good friend creates the atmosphere of care and support so that you can see your way through the darkness, through the fog, into the light.

It may be that we do need a bulldozer now and then. But if your efforts are sincere, unlikely, and not often, and certainly not when you will lose a limb in the process.

[anami]

@Sonya
Tough audience at this club. Many veiled Saints and no drink minimum.

[Dungeness]

No one actually needs to "beat it into you." The truth is already in you. It's just a matter of being objective and dispassionate. Then you can see it for yourself. And that is the only way out of a bad situation, where you see the way for yourself.

Wise words. I agree totally Spence.

Nor can "It's for your own good" be a bully's refuge from
criticism. But, a true friend knows when to jettison the
handbook. A "Why you sonofabitch!" reaction may be
the best medicine of all.

Trouble is, in our (er, my) diminished state of awareness we
don't how or when to break the rules. But we're quick to
judge others who do.

[Dungeness]

Tough audience at this club. Many veiled Saints and no drink minimum.

Thank you anami for a memorable gem :)

[Jen from Austin Texas]

Hi Sonya interesting that we both are from Austin (small world) but no I don’t know you if I did I would remember as I feel your comments are crude, rude and completely tasteless not only because they are towards a master but because they lack decency. Many people don’t agree with each other but we can respect the other person and put our view forward which isn’t what you are doing, Along with some others on this blog. This is what drives me to the conclusion that either you are making yourself believe something which isn’t a fact or you are vengeful.
Reminds me of a comment a bollywood actress made a while back about a guru who was only trying to help someone but his statement did not agree with her and she attacked him badly on Twitter. Again I was neither on her side or his but I felt this was completely out of line and unnecessary. I feel the same about you. Respect and decency is no longer common these days.

[jay]

When satsangis discuss the errors of the RSSB guru, It has always fascinated me how Gurinder is always their fall guy, while Charan Singh gets a pass.

Nepotism - - Gurinder is blamed for putting family ahead of the sangat. Yet Charan is the only RSSB guru to appoint a relative to be guru. And Charan has said that he largely because guru to please his family.

Money -- Gurinder is blamed for possibly engaging in shady business deals. Yet satsangis excuse Charan for flouting Indian customs laws, and using foreign satsangis as mules for luxury goods. Again, Charan did this because he put his family above considerations of his followers and the law.

Money 2 -- Gurinder is blamed for being wealthy without a job. I've yet to meet the RSSB initiate who has the least problem with the fact that Charan had no job for 40 years and yet somehow had crores of bucks to support himself and who know how many other people in style. All the while, telling the sangat that the guru is always "self-supporting," and admonishing satsangis who wanted to borrow money to visit the dera.

Advice -- Gurinder is blamed for giving bad advice. Advice so bad that it must have killed scores of people. They say that the biggest problems with Gurinder's advice is that it was "uncaring," and didn't include a recommendation to seek professional help from a certified high priest of secular psych. Apparently forgotten here is that Charan Sing never advised satsangis to see a head doc. Not in any of his talks, and not in any of his many RSSB books. Listen to the tapes now found on youtube. Many clearly emotionally distraught people came to Charan for advice. Some came from halfway round the world to see him. Charan's ONLY advice to every problem was "do your meditation." Yet not a satsangis ever accused Charan of giving bad advice, let alone killing people.

Advice 2 -- Didn't Charan tell American satsangis that it was their duty to serve their country fighti8ng in Vietnam?

Then there's Charan's rather Victorian counselling on sexuality. His stock answer to all questions on marital sexual problems was the vague "we have to do our duty." About homosexuality, one Charan initiate wrote in a book I believe titled "Gay Dharma" his account of "coming out" to Charan, and Charan thundering at him that same-sex attraction was totally unacceptable and a grave sin. Good advice?

Changing the teachings -- Gurinder is excoriated by some initiates for apparently saying that "there is no Kal," "Masters don't take your karma, you're responsible," and demanding that satsangis be scrupulous about rennet. These same initiates apparently forgot the many ways that Charan deviated from Sawan's teachings, and that all sant mat gurus have likewise made minor changes from their predecessors. Anyway, not a murmur when Charan made changes, but Gurinder gets labelled a heretic. And rennet was always forbidden to satsangis, even in Charan's time.

Maybe I see these things because I'm not a Charan or Gurinder initiate.

[Brian Hines]

Jen from Austin Texas, this seems to be what you're saying:

(1) You consider that Sonya's comments are "crude, rude and completely tasteless."
(2) Your criticized Sonya for saying things that are "out of line and unnecessary."
(3) So after Sonya criticized the guru for how he treated her, you're now criticizing Sonya for criticizing the guru.

Do you see how self-contradictory this is? If you have a right to criticize Sonya, don't you think Sonya has a right to criticize the RSSB guru, Gurinder Singh Dhillon?

Or do you believe gurus should never be criticized? That seems to be your position, since you said that you don't like Sonya's comments "because they are towards a master." Well, if that's how you feel, be prepared to feel that way a lot more if you visit this blog regularly.

Note the name of this blog: Church of the Churchless

Gurus and religion are frequently criticized here. Then some people try to defend them against the criticisms. That's how critical thinking operates. Reasons are given for what someone feels a certain way, then those reasons are open to discussion.

In my view, your reasons for criticizing Sonya are quite weak. But others may disagree.

[Sonya]

Jen from Austin Texas,

You may find my comments crude, rude and completely tasteless especially being that they are towards a Master. However, even thought Gurinder may not like me, I'm pretty sure he can appreciate my humor. He actually does have a pretty good sense of humor. I'll give him that.

And my office is in Menlo Park. Small world.

[Sonya]

Jen from Austin Texas (it would be easier to abbreviate but JFAT is pretty rude and even I won't stoop to that),

I go back an forth between the East Coast and the Bay Area. When I'm Menlo Park we could perhaps have lunch sometime and talk this out. You might find me more likable in person. Just throwin' it out there...

[s*]

That Gurinder gave even satsang soon after being in hospital,even when he was in chemo therapy..that was very brave!
That is what I want to mention.

[Meditator]

Why a few of us have cared as much to remain attached to a supposed cult for quite long despite having had venomous encounters with the Master. It would have been better if he/she or others should have given a good bye fairly early. Why they had to risk their lives - to live preferably more of spiritual and religious lives than ordinary lives.

To me one should sit as much as he/she can to reveal some truth inside than rushing externally towards Him to extract spiritual advantages by being close to Him. Even external sewa may have limitations and can in fact make us weary when results are nowhere or lesser.

Seems trickiest a thing to reveal Him inside as of now when allegations and slurs are flying thick and fast and it will test our nerves also to maintain trust in Him henceforward.

[Jen for Austin Texas]

Sounds good Sonya let me know when your in MP.

[Spence Tepper]

Hi Jen from Austin
If you can judge Sonya, who gave it her best and suffered, I think that kind of reaction does nothing to support your case for Gurinder. In fact it reflects very poorly upon him when his defenders step on those who have suffered.

Since you don't know Sonya you can't possibly know what actually happened.

It's disrespectful to doubt someone who has already been bullied.

You don't need to believe Sonya. But I think a true Saint would first accept her for who she is.

In fact no true Saint has club rules. When it comes to God he is for everyone, just for the asking.

In the meanwhile, if Gurinder could treat people a little more nicely, and pay his bills, avoid selling off charitable hospitals, I think we would all love that very much.

Let's let love and respect for each other bring us together, and start with respect and acceptance for those who are vulnerable.

[Sonya]

Hi s*, I must admit that was pretty amazing. I've heard chemo is awful at best.

Besides music, humor is another thing that has the ability to unite all people. Sometimes we do take things to seriously. I'm guilty of that quite often, but my husband and family get a good laugh out of it... at my expense. ;) LOL

@Meditator, I completely agree with your first paragraph. I don't really go along with the belief that seeing the Master inside is a possibility anymore, but many people claim to have seen him. I hope you enjoy your meditation--sure seems like you do. :-)

[Dharam]

I shall agan ike to comment on the Santmat Guru.Noi doubt,in Santmat,Guru is God in Human Form ,because He is connected with God,His prime duty is to take souls to the God.
But his way of living and behaving is like ordunary human beings.Sometimes He may be happy,sometimes He may be angry and sometimes,He may be worried over worldly problems.He never wants to show Himself a superior fellow.In question answrrs also,He never gives superior answers.He does not give any special advies like other Gurus.
One can iove only an ordinary man like oneself.So,He prefers to be ordinary.We can take His advice as a Friend's advice because He is thd true friend.
Remember,God comes at a human level to take His souls.So,at human level,do not always expect special advices.Rather many times,He takes advices fron experts and specilists for His worldly problems and dera problems.For dera adminstration purpose,He does want that His advices be followed in toto,as an adminstrator for smooth running of huge organisation.
So do not expect any miraculous answers from Him.Surely,you can always expect help from Him for progress in your meditation .
His other advices may or may not work,may or may not look good.But still,people continue to love Him more and more because their real moto is spirtual help.
Because,if you love more and more to a GIHF,you will be nearer to God.

[Dharam]

You may note in answers of Baba ji and Maharaj ji as well,answers are very ordinary or they simply answer,' Do your meditation or do more and more meditation."
Santmat Guru is God in Ordinary Human Form.That is why He is loved by Ordinary people .Specialists and highly educated or Richly people have to be simple and ordinary to seek love for the God in Ordinary Human Form.
And you do not find fault in the one you love most and once you love your beloved,you ignore his faults even. An unconditional and blind love and true love for the God in ordinary human form can take you to the God,connect you to the Shabad.
Otherwise,you can see highly educated,richly people falling away from path.
Unconditional Love- Even if He changes Santmat or what is written in books,true seekers will love Him because they know that only master can connect them to the Shabad,the God and no books,no previous gurus can help you.

[Spence Tepper]

Hi Magrugada
You wrote
"Would you , please, stop writing WE in your comments, not all of us share your opinion and i do not like your preachments at all."

OK, but only if you stop writing US, because not all of US share WE's opinion either.

But last time I checked all the voices in my head We all did seem to agree, at least momentarily, that Magrugada, if that really is your name, was wasting a perfectly good opportunity to preach about the topic and had degraded into petty personal remarks instead.

[Sonya]

Hi Jen from Austin Texas,

I’ll be in Seattle for a few weeks and then in MP May 14th on... So many great vegetarian restaurants in Palo Alto... if you still want to meet up then you can email me around that time at [email protected] (that’s my “safe” email address ;)).

Best,
S

[Jesse]

Dharam, you don't even know what you're talking about. You're dreaming about a man you've never met and tricking yourself into believing that all the evil stuff he's involved in is an attempt to look normal?
If he wanted to look like a normal guy, becoming a billionaire via theft and genociding African kids isn't the way to do it. Being a store clerk or a laborer is more normal.

It's time to wake up, little buddy. This guy Gurinder is a fraud.

[Jesse]

"Let's let love and respect for each other bring us together, and start with respect and acceptance for those who are vulnerable."

Why, Spence? Why is "coming together" and "respect" an ideal that we must all appreciate or work toward acheiving?
Maybe we should all embrace our inner warlord and make strength and power the only respectable ideal. Because so far all this peace, love and understanding is just making everyone fat, depressed, complacent and easy prey for conmen and politicians.

[Jen from Austin Texas]

Sonya got it. Will email you and yes there are many vegetarian restaurants. So I take it you have left the path but you are still vegetarian? This will be an interesting meetup as I don’t agree with your views atleast not the ones you have expressed here. But who knows i May make more of an impression on you than you would on me.

[Jen]

Sonya, please let us know if this "Jen from Austin Texas" shows up.

I have a strong feeling that there is a particular troll on this blog. This person changes his colours like a chameleon and is playing many different characters, male and female.

Brian said: "I unpublished the fake Jen's comments. It's unfortunate when a religious person stoops to imitating a regular commenter just to insult someone else."

Note that Brian, after investigating the posts has mentioned "a religious person".

From Spence Tepper: "It is not unusual that a fake Jen follows a fake guru".

Austin Jen says: "I have been reading on this site for a while but posted for the first time and my posts got deleted." hmmm

On the open thread I said to Mike England... "Hey Mike England, I think I know who you are". His reply was... "Jen Thank you for the nod(s). And yes I am he." (I think this Mike England fellow is Spence Tepper)

On another post Mike England says: "I use my real first name; adding my location to make a posting pseudonym." Huh?

Just my thoughts: How many names has Spencer Tepper "very religious person" used on this blog. Mike England? Austin Jen?

[Sonya]

It’s been a while... this is a slow song but apropos to pretty much the whole divine shebang... all the questioning. https://youtu.be/yfGEq0JWxGM

[Jen]

Spence Tepper is a Christian: One of his posts on his blog: Atheist N Believer:

"Christ: The Master Attorney"

"He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous."

[s*]

@ Jay,
You are right in saying these things about Charan.
In fact he was often judgemental.
You should not devorce..
(I did),nobody does that for fun at all!!
The Indian sangat does not like devorce,I have felt that.Maharaji was absolutely against it.
Then Charan was idd very serious always where Gurinder makes more fun.,( too much sometimes)..
Charan was against homosexuality.
Soo yeahh...
That I found diffi...''cult''

[Spence Tepper]

Hi Jen
Is this our Jen or a different Jen?
You wrote
"On the open thread I said to Mike England... "Hey Mike England, I think I know who you are". His reply was... "Jen Thank you for the nod(s). And yes I am he." (I think this Mike England fellow is Spence Tepper)

On another post Mike England says: "I use my real first name; adding my location to make a posting pseudonym." Huh?

Just my thoughts: How many names has Spencer Tepper "very religious person" used on this blog. Mike England? Austin Jen? "

I have no idea if you are actually our Zen Master Jen or the imposter.

But I've only posted stuff under my actual name, Spence Tepper, and no other. So the other guys, including Mike England, AL India, Susan Southhampton, Peggy Poughkeepsie and 'Religious Guy' are indeed different posters.

You can find out all sorts of stuff about me searching on the internet. Though there are actually two or three Spence Tepper 's in the U. S., I'm on the East Coast in Boston.

If you read everything with my name on it, still there may have been someone a while back who tried to post under my name but it didn't last. Most of what you find is me.

As for my spirituality, most Christians would not call me a Christian, though I love Jesus deeply ; most Jews might call me a Jew (by birth) though I am not a zionist, and most Satsangis would begrudgingly acknowledge that I was initiated (in 1977 by Dr. Devries in Pasadena) and while I follow the vows, not a true RSSB Satsangi, since I am very open about encouraging Gurinder to come clean, pay his bills and live by the vows.

Jen, if this really is Jen, I get that you were shocked by someone posting under your exact name. And I get that now you might be paranoid about who others are.

But I don't hide behind anything, Jen. This is me.

[Spence Tepper]

Hi Jesse
Peace is a full time job. No one grows complacent pursuing peace.

That emerges from an inner vision that we are nothing more than energy fields existing together in Larger fields, containing smaller fields.

What you see as solid matter is by far mostly empty space.

When you see that, at least in concept, then there is nothing worth fighting about. You and I are far more alike than different. Nothing to be proud of.

Seeing things as they are is nothing to be proud of. That's what's already there. But being ignorant feels to me shameful. And yet in this flesh bag it's part of the life.

But each of us bases our ethics in our experience,

[La Madrugada]

Hi Magrugada
You wrote
"Would you , please, stop writing WE in your comments, not all of us share your opinion and i do not like your preachments at all."

OK, but only if you stop writing US, because not all of US share WE's opinion either.

But last time I checked all the voices in my head We all did seem to agree, at least momentarily, that Magrugada, if that really is your name, was wasting a perfectly good opportunity to preach about the topic and had degraded into petty personal remarks instead.

Posted by: Spence Tepper | April 24, 2019 at 06:49 PM

Hi again Spence,

When you use "WE" in your comments, the word includes imo all the readers of this blog and when i use "not all of us" it means at least WE minus ME.
English is not my first language and i cannot explain it better to you than i did.
Be careful with the word "WE" because every time i read it i get an allergical reaction complete with pimpels and breath-problems and that can be dangerous!

And "no" Spence, La Madrugada (and not Magrugada) is not my real name.
May i introduce myself to you: i am an old witch. This nick-name was given to me by my parents who were witches too when they saw me, always early in the morning (madrugada) flying on my broomstick to search the people who were not nice to us witches and i used to transform them all in toads or worse: cockroaches..so Spence......
Retired now i live at Hogwarts in the Scottish Highlands, only a few people know that Harry Potter was one of my most talented pupils.

To end this posting, a personal advice:
Spence, do not listen to all these voices in your head, make an appointment with a doctor, it could be serious.

[Mike England]

Hi Jen (the real Jen)
Jen: On the open thread I said to Mike England... "Hey Mike England, I think I know who you are". His reply was... "Jen Thank you for the nod(s). And yes I am he."
ME: I agreed to accelerate the conversation
Jen: (I think this Mike England fellow is Spence Tepper)
ME: No I ain’t
Jen: On another post Mike England says: "I use my real first name; adding my location to make a posting pseudonym." Huh?

ME: Sweet Little Larry
I am: Mike living in England 🏴󠁧󠁢󠁥󠁮󠁧󠁿

I see Spence has already replied, clarifying the position.
Though I am flattered that you rate my comments so highly to compare them to Spence. He is always thoughtful, articulate and shows a lot of compassion. Whereas my comments are Baffling Brains Bullshit.

Dr Eugene Genetics has said on only one occasion “what was that mate?”
I think he misheard someone, or they weren’t talking to him.

Peace, Goodwill and no confusion to all CotC’ers

[Mike England]

Hi Spence
You got there first with clarification.
I liked your “ AL India,
Susan Southhampton,
Peggy Poughkeepsie“
Made me laugh.
Anyways I’m me and you are you.
Duality not Oneness.

[Jen from Austin Texas]

Dharam thank you for your postings they are lovely.

[Jen from Austin Texas]

Jen I have never posted here before and like you said Brian called me a “religious person” he did so only based on the 10 words I wrote to Sonya so like I said before many or perhaps MOSTLy all things on this site go by the assumption of the readers it’s not based on facts.
And yes to clear the air I’m not a religious person at all. In fact I’m the opposite. Don’t subscribe to any religion.

[Sonya]

Hi Spence,

Do you still have the blog Athiestsnbelievers? I tried looking it up but couldn’t find it...

Hope weather is warmer now in Boston. :)

[Mike England]

Sonya
Dear Sonya
Re your I’m very very....comment
After reading it, I felt sorry for you.
However, on my third or more reading I understood the ChopraCodex you had used and revealed The Hidden Meaning. It may have even escaped others.

By the way or via, I loved your portmanteau:
Austjen

I look forward to our next adventure when we paint glasses an moustaches on the Dera statues

Peace and Goodwill to Church of the Churchless

[Brian Hines]

Jen from Austin Texas, since you claimed to be from Austin, Texas, but you actually live in Menlo Park, California, you shouldn't be criticizing me for not being factual. You should point that finger at yourself.

[Jen from Austin Texas]

Brian I guess you have never heard of people traveling for work.

[Brian Hines]

Jen from Austin Texas, I have indeed heard of people traveling for work. My daughter does this frequently.

I got the impression that you are in Menlo Park from this exchange between you and Sonya. Sonya said:

"Hi Jen from Austin Texas,
I’ll be in Seattle for a few weeks and then in MP May 14th on... So many great vegetarian restaurants in Palo Alto... if you still want to meet up then you can email me around that time.... [then gave her email address]"

And you then replied:

"Sonya got it. Will email you and yes there are many vegetarian restaurants. So I take it you have left the path but you are still vegetarian? This will be an interesting meetup as I don’t agree with your views atleast not the ones you have expressed here. But who knows i May make more of an impression on you than you would on me."

So hopefully you can see why someone might think that you live in the Menlo Park/Palo Alto area. And regarding you being religious, I noted that you talked about Sonya having "left the path" (of Sant Mat/RSSB), so hopefully you can also see why someone might think that you are religious, since you said that you don't agree with Sonya's views, and she has "left the path."

But thanks for letting us know that you don't live in Menlo Park and aren't religious. Good to know. Menlo Park is too expensive, and being religious is a bad thing to do.

[Spence Tepper]

Hi Brian:

You wrote:
"But thanks for letting us know that you don't live in Menlo Park and aren't religious. Good to know. Menlo Park is too expensive, and being religious is a bad thing to do. "

ROFLMO

[Jen from Austin texas]

Thank you Brian you are helping me make my point. Like you said you got the impression which means you assumed things about me based on partial information that you have on me in the same way you and your regular commenters assume things (which has been the topic of most of your blog posts) without complete information. And interestingly this is mostly if not always when it doesn’t agree with you or your views. Stop assuming things and wait for facts or rely on actual facts you already know. You made 2 simple mistakes about me but you are making many very big mistakes about others. Thank you if you decide to post this.
Also not religious doesn’t mean non believer.

[Brian Hines]

Jen from Austin Texas, I made an informed assumption about you based on information available on hand. As more information becomes available about something, I alter my assumption. That's how critical thinking works.

So I gather you live full time in Austin, Texas, while traveling to the Menlo Park area occasionally for work? Confirm this and I'll alter my assumption about where you live.

Likewise, feel free to leave comments regarding possible factual errors you find in my blog posts. Though you said I don't wait for facts, you didn't provide any specific examples of this. So please do so, if you like. Don't include opinions I offer based on facts. That's something different. We all have to do this, all the time.

For example, recently my walk-behind DR Field Mower wouldn't start. At first my opinion was that the neutral switch had gotten loose. But that wasn't the case. Then I thought the battery was bad. But a new battery didn't fix the problem. A mechanically astute neighbor friend came by yesterday and figured out that while the neutral switch was connected, it was defective. So he bypassed it and the mower now starts.

I mention this because it is an example of how assumptions based on facts known at the time will change as new facts become known. That's how I changed from being a believer in the Sant Mat teachings to becoming an atheist. New experiences and new knowledge led me to change some assumptions about reality.

In the same way, I've been sharing my assumptions about the wrongdoings of Gurinder Singh Dhillon, the guru of Radha Soami Satsang Beas, based on facts shared in stories from the Indian financial press. As more facts come in, I'll change my assumptions accordingly.

This is a long way of explaining why I'm eager to have you correct any facts I may have gotten wrong in my blog posts, and why assumptions based on facts are something different.

For example, i frequently talk about the guru's wrongdoing, because this is my assumption based on available facts. So far he hasn't been found criminally guilty of wrongdoing -- though criminal complaints have been filed against him. Of course, it is possible to do something that's unethical and wrong, yet isn't illegal.

[Jen from]

Thank you for clarifying that your blog posts are based on assumptions not facts. I hope your readers know that. When you alter them to be based on facts I will be back. For now light and love to you. I’m outta here Ciao 👋🏻

[Brian Hines]

Jen from, you know damn well that isn't what I said in my comment about facts. So you are a liar, and now I've caught you in your lie. I'm a fact-lover, and you can't stand that. Here's what I said, in part:

---------------
Likewise, feel free to leave comments regarding possible factual errors you find in my blog posts. Though you said I don't wait for facts, you didn't provide any specific examples of this. So please do so, if you like. Don't include opinions I offer based on facts. That's something different. We all have to do this, all the time.

...This is a long way of explaining why I'm eager to have you correct any facts I may have gotten wrong in my blog posts, and why assumptions based on facts are something different.

[Sonya]

Jen from...

I’m thinking of taking on a new client who lives in LA and has just started a cannabis biz and working as a reseller with myjane.com. Do you think Gurinder would disapprove? He alluded that he somehow knew I’d been drinking in the past year right in the middle of our last conversation together. Just outa the blue.

Last time I saw him before I went to Dera in December and had that conversation with him was at a 2 day weekend in Petaluma. I was also visiting some dear friends who are not Satsangis while I was there and I’ll have to say I was really teetering more away from RSSB/Sant Mat even then at that point.

I honestly have never thought there is anything wrong with drinking responsibly. I gave it up while I was a Satsangi. Quite frankly, my doctors had me on enough Adderall and Klonopin while I was a Satasangi that I had no need for anything else. Anyway since I was really getting fed up w/all the weirdness of Sant Mat I went on a wine tour with my friends while I was there. It was the best part of my trip.

Anyway, just started thinking that if he’s (spooky music playing now) really “PSYCHIC” (spooky music playing again) and if THAT is what he was upset about, and why he was so rude in his answer to my question, well......... 🤔

I’m going to open a winery AND definitely help my friend launch her new cannabis biz. Swear to God.

Actually, I only drink champagne. I know it sounds really pretentious but for some reason it’s the only alcoholic beverage I enjoy. I’ll drink a glass of Chardonnay in a pinch... red wine only on a tasting tour and of course Mint Juleps at the Derby but that’s pretty much it.

Anyway, I don’t take the prescribed Adderall anymore—gave that up before I quit Sant Mat. It was too much for me. My doctor was convinced I’m ADD and insisted I really needed it. Most people have to make up stories to try and get a script for it, but my doctor practically forced it on me after a year of me saying nooooo I think I’m good. He was like, nooooo you honestly aren’t...

Don’t take Klonopin much either. No need to—no panic attacks.

I could give you a long list of my legal and illegal drug use, and alcohol consumption history but I think you get the picture.

Gurinder really needs to vape... like, REALLY.

[Jen from Austin Texas]

Sonya I’m confused why do I need to know this? Are you preparing me for the conversation we will have when we meet? I only asked if your still a vegetarian since you no longer follow the vows. Whether or not your Guru will approve of your business and lifestyle choices seems to be irrelevant to you. You will do what you want anyways. So how does it matter To you? A wise man once said “I’m not here to give you the answers, I’m here to make you think” so the decision is yours my dear. Good luck

[Sonya]

I’m going to end my part on this thread by saying one really nice thing about Gurinder (I have to balance it out—I’m a Libra), he is probably the most popular and most loved guru in the Punjab by his followers.

There. I feel better. Don’t want to be a jerk all of the time. Just some of the time.

[Dharam]

Brian
According to ' Life is Fair' , you are subject to pay off karmas due to your criticism of RSSB path and Guru.There can be a significant load of Karmas for making the people to create unnnecessary doubts about RSSB path and santmat which leads the soul to God.

[Brian Hines]

Dharam, you're talking nonsense. The RSSB guru and the RSSB path are false. So since "karma" simply means cause and effect, I'm generating some good karma by informing people about the ridiculousness of religion. (I consider RSSB a religion, as does RSSB itself.) It's those who perpetuate untruths who are incurring bad "karma."

[Jesse]

"he is probably the most popular and most loved guru in the Punjab by his followers."

Is that even quantifiable? There are a number of stories just in the past 5 years of masses of followers barricading deras and ashrams to defend their gurus, and it's extremely common for people in Punjab and all over India to give up everything and follow a random guru for their whole lives.

If anything I'd say that RS Beas faction was just one of the main sects that succeeded in attracting a sizable middle and upper class educated following. That brought in the money, plus the expertise and skills that made the Beas Dera so attractive and orderly compared to many other similar sized cults. It's not all love and devotion as advertised. Tons of those people you see there aren't even satsangis, and many came to the Dera because it is clean and quiet.

Nowadays with the highly monetized cults of Sri Sri Sri Sri Sri Sri Sri Sri Sri Sri Sri Sri Sri Sri Ravi Shankar and Sadh "hahaha no you're wrong" Guru, I'd guess that places like Beas are being outcompeted and likely won't be around much longer. Or if they're around they'll have to change strategies to continue to attract a following.

[Sonya]

Hi Jen,

I don't know... I just felt like going on a tangent I guess. But I didn't see you post a question about being vegetarian. Yes, I am vegetarian--wish I were vegan... I've done the vegan thing for several years at a time but it seems to make things difficult at family gatherings. And then I slide back to vegetarianism. I was vegan when I married my husband. He's a satsangi and through his bad influence I because vegetarian again. LOL

Vegetarianism is about compassion. Vegan--even more so.

I guess to sum it up (Gurinder aside) what I don't agree with in Sant Mat is the whole past lives thing and the focus on past life karmas. I think it's absurd. Sure the "soul" has no beginning or end but why even think about the past. How can one clear themselves of "karma" if they refuse to believe that they are forgiven. Sant Mat as RSSB sells it isn't about love of anything other than the guru. A lot of satsangis seem to forget that "God" permeates every living thing from a rock to a blade of grass to a human.

I don't how many times I have to say this but GSD's only beliefs are judgement, condemnation and focusing on the lifetimes of sins that everyone else has except himself, because he thinks now that he's a guru he is sinless. Weirdness. Where is the love? Sant Mat is a fear based Religion. Maybe some of the other Rhadasoami sect gurus have a more humane, loving approach... I don't know.

[Sonya]

That previous comment wasn't directed towards "Zen Jen". it was meant for "Jen from Austin not in Austin"

[Jen from Austin Texas]

Sonya I am amazed as how crude and offensive your comments can be. You said I may like you if we meet in person and I thought why not, but now I take that back. I have no interest in meeting someone like you, your tactless, negative and lack basic human decency. So I am writing this comment to let you know you won’t be hearing from me when you visit Menlo Park next month. Your comments on the other post are appalling to say the least and just shows how you think.

[Pal]

This path is for real, but is very difficult.

May take a life time.

It is driven by current thinking not old thinking.

It has no rituals, no uniform no set script of prayer and only one of a few that talk about an inner journey while the rest talk about an external journey.
What happens to us is set by only our own actions and conduct Ive experience of this.

You cannot blame others for your own conduct.

[Sonia]

This path is for real, but is very difficult.

May take a life time.

It is driven by current thinking not old thinking.

It has no rituals, no uniform no set script of prayer and only one of a few that talk about an inner journey while the rest talk about an external journey.
What happens to us is set by only our own actions and conduct Ive experience of this.

You cannot blame others for your own conduct.

Posted by: Pal | April 22, 2020 at 01:43 PM

What excellent insight! 👍 🙌 🙏

You are sooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo right!!! 😃 ❤️ 😘