Gurinder Singh Dhillon isn't adhering to the message of "Honest Living"

Below is a recent comment written by Radh(er Not) Soami that struck me as well worth sharing as a blog post. The comment points to something important that I feel has been overlooked by defenders of the Radha Soami Satsang Beas guru who are fond of saying, "Innocent until proven guilty!"

(If you're not familiar with what the guru, Gurinder Singh Dhillon (GSD), has been accused of, it is a conspiracy to commit massive financial fraud and death threats. A criminal complaint filed against the guru is discussed in "Legal filing against Gurinder Singh Dhillon is fascinating reading.")

The important thing being overlooked is how strange it is that a spiritual leader with millions of followers, who is considered to be God in Human Form according to the teachings of Radha Soami Satsang Beas (RSSB), is at risk of being convicted of engaging in financial fraud and making death threats against people who demanded their money back.

Nothing remotely this scandalous has ever occurred in the lineage of RSSB gurus. And as you can read in the following comment, RSSB has even published a book called "Honest Living" whose message is decidedly at odds with how the guru who leads this organization has been conducting his life.

Read on for what Radh(er Not) Soami says. The family settlement letter mentioned in this comment can be read in this post. 

@jay, you wrote:
"So far no one has disputed the accuracy of the bad news about the RSSB guru"
Brian, this pinpoints where we disagree. Strictly speaking, the facts (a thing that is known or proved to be true) presented have all [been] about the associates of the RSSB guru. But they're not facts about the actions of Gurinder Singh himself.

Does the letter written by GSD talking about the Family Settlement, reversal of properties, and settling of accounts constitute "facts" with some "accuracy of the bad news", or at least admission of some "facts" with some "accuracy" of the news, whether bad or not?

To all RSSB defenders, please help me in putting this scandal in the context of Honest Living. As opposed to the previous RSSB related dramas, this one cuts directly to the heart of what the head himself does in his private life, something 99.99% of the sangat is not privy to, and something that he has not been transparent to us at all, ever.

Not in their books, wikipedia page, or even on their own website. Not even now! And here I thought Saints like Nanak and Kabir show openness and transparency to set themselves up as good role models for the followers.

Most people tend to think that GSD has (or had) business in Spain. And that is all, the end of thinking and discussion.

Honest Living book:
Page 21: Honest living necessitates self-control. It requires that we exercise restraint in all our dealings, that we use our sense of judgement, our God-given gift of discrimination, to shape our lives. Honesty implies being faithful to our spouse, or, if we are not married, being faithful to a chaste life. It implies fairness and justice, openness and transparency, the absence of deceit—in contrast to wealth, power and passion, which lead to oppression, extortion, deception and pain.

Page 34: The extreme subtleties of the law. The law of karma is inexorable and subtle beyond our imagination. For example, even if we are party to someone else’s dishonourable actions, we too are culpable as an accessory to the suffering caused.

The second quote clearly highlights the reason for our moral, ethical, spiritual, and legal dilemma here - allegedly a fraud on such a grand scale, discomfort due to this round of news cycle that is not even remotely in the league of previous RSSB related controversies (and I thought I had heard it all ever since joining this mission), and inability to easily shake it off when put in the context of "spiritual before material wealth", "living within one's means" and "not even a single grain..." mantra of Honest Living.

If one were to say this drama is all his wife's or sons' doing as far as his family involvement is concerned, then they are not the ones writing a signed letter to Singh bros either. And they are not the ones to whom Malav [Malvinder Singh] has addressed his reply letter either. They are also not the ones with whom Shivinder is siding with, and Malav going to court against.

That alone should tell you about who likely pulls all the strings on the Dhillon empire side and the level of involvement.

The language in the GSD letter also does not suggest or say "my wife and my sons or family got a loan and would like to settle with you" or appear to act on their behalf. When asked about being called as the third brother of Singhs, Sunny G [Sunil Godhwani] also says his allegiance is to the guru and guru alone. Perhaps that could also give you some hint.

And then you look at the other RSSB characters involved. A natural question arises about who the fountainhead of all these activities is or the head cooks involved in baking this dish are. Even if only occasional gusts of wind have blown (yet), the picture does not seem to be rosy behind the curtain.

To me, this letter and the "fact" that a coterie of RSSB leaders were installed on most significant and top positions of Singh empire, indicate that the crisis could not have come from and just due to the actions of GSD family members alone on the Dhillon side.

But that he himself was involved to a large extent, even if not in day to day activities (more like a 36,000 ft view than a bird's eye view). But he simply could not have been passively involved as a mentor or business consultant. And if actively involved, should he then not be "culpable as an accessory to the suffering caused" due to "someone else’s dishonourable actions" like in the quote above?

So GSD's involvement for sure is there, what needs to be ascertained is a) how much, and b) whether it was knowingly malign at any point during this saga or simply a cruel fate resulting from vagaries of economic cycle.

Even if that is settled, what needs to be truthfully questioned - as if our soul's fate depended on it, which actually it is if we go by GIHF-moksha formula - is that, as an RSSB Saint, should he have indulged in all these affairs to such a ginormous extent, lest the name of the organization is tainted even by remote association?

This is not to say that you can't run a business. To the best of our knowledge, he already was running a small business. But then when the scale of effort goes from 1X to 1000X or more, then how do you rationalize the involvement in gathering of such large scale material wealth, particularly when you are a spiritual head. What is the objective?

It is one thing to have a cool business idea where you can rationalize you are helping society in some way or bringing something new and along the way a misstep or two inadvertently occured.

But it is totally different when it is simply garden variety real estate hoarding on a massive scale and that too done with questionable practices like Trump family's bankruptcy strategies. Most stable and well-known businesses expand on a 2-3X scale.

Some here are confusing loans with donation! I am sorry, even if these were donations, they were not routed to RSSB. And if it were to him or his family, how could he even accept it as a living honorable Saint?

What happened to those stories that Saints don't take a penny/paisa even if a King comes to their door and leave gold bullions, diamonds, etc? Weren't they supposed to earn their own wages for themselves and their family? And that they live within their means and not covet what belonged to others..

And then how do we square these revelations with the mission: as the spiritual head, who best to show us the way to live within one's means, to set himself up as the best example of what is taught in "Honest Living", and to focus on spiritual gains more than on material wealth?

It's also equally absurd to think that somehow the master is arranging/planning a grand heist to shake us from our beliefs and concepts and see who the true believers are or separate the wheat from chaff. What an aweful way to do it and that too pulled off on a decade and a half long initiative, with suffering of many non-satsangis (yet curiously enrichment of some satsangis).

This kind of reasoning is a cousin to the beliefs of Jesus fanatics thinking Grand Canyon or dinosaurs or fossil records were put by him to mess with our beliefs and test our faith. Is Earth really 6000 years old and really flat? If they have to test it, they can equally walk into a bar or put an alcohol bottle with some chicken tandoori on the satsang dais and see what happens, without this much scandalous pain.

Or is it simply what it appears on surface, the classical mantra: "Do as I say and not as I do"!

Relevant to this critcal question of ethics, morality, and spirituality, which to my mind is even more important than the legality of the situtation, is if the Singhs' direct relatives (Huzur and his family members) did not get involve in business initiatives with Ranbaxy empire - likely a carefully considered position - then why did GSD agree to work with the Singh brothers on such a large scale and not follow the path of his predecessor?

Clearly, it wasn't just mentorship. And it's not like GSD's sons or his wife were India's most successful businessmen or had the experience necessary that led to the fateful decision by the Singhs that parting ways with nearly 1/3rd of their hard earned money (actually their fathers') for a lucrative business, is a no-brainer!

His sons were just in the 20's during this time frame (in 2009, Gary would be 24 and Gurkirat just 18) and had not done any serious venture of any sort to showcase their talent. This would be true of GSD's wife as well. On what grounds were the Religare shares awarded to the two GSD sons in 2006?

Even some in the RSSB inner circles seem to think that GSD's wife lives the life of a sevadar and can't possibly do this on her own. (Was that snippet in the orginial Bloomberg article?)

MMS [Malvinder Mohan Singh] also doesn't seem to be targeting or talking about his sons or wife but rather refer to him being involved as a mentor and allegedly a behind-the-scene business partner, an involvement that has turned into a legal (and unholy) quagmire.

Evidently, the whole conglomeration transpired because of GSD due to his experience in dera activities, real estate dealings as well as the experience of dera head honchos who regularly conducted such dealings.

A degree of youthful naivete and trustfulness of Singhs coupled with the experience of GSD/RSSB honchos likely lured the Singh bros into marrying mentorship with business. The awarded shares in the names of wife and sons were likely a dowry for this marriage. They were not in his own name to present a clean image to sangat and avoid probe. But the timely sale of Rabaxy sealed the fateful path.

One's you ponder over it, you will see why many of us are uncomfortable with these revelations and are seriously questioning not only his pivotal role and the involvement of dubious practices but even the very decision to participate in such a large-scale wealth gathering effort in the first place.

Again, what is the objective? And if his heart was clean, then as a spiritual mentor, why did he not call into question or intervene in the dubious practices by his family, Godhwani, and the Singh bros?

It does not appear that he was not acquainted with issues cropping up, given the settlement plans first discussed in 2013, then in 2016, then 2018 letter, followed by Malav's rebuttal letter. Undeniably, there must have been more discussions involved than what just appears on paper.

I applaud what Brian is doing here. He is surely not a saint and can be rightly biased, but then how else do you reveal the truth than by asking tough questions?

“Truth has nothing to do with the conclusion, and everything to do with the methodology.” ― Stefan Molyneux

“For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him will believeth in anything. - Hitchens 3:16”
― Christopher Hitchens

“When we blindly adopt a religion, a political system, a literary dogma, we become automatons.”
― Anaïs Nin

If you care for truth, then I say right now your heart and mind should say: "I want truth and nothing but the complete truth". It is better to die living with an uncomfortable truth than living with "ignorance is bliss". So ask we must, and ask as assiduously as we can to peel behind this curtain. If there is nothing to be seen, well then how lucky will we be!

Comments

[jay]

"Does the letter written by GSD talking about the Family Settlement, reversal of properties, and settling of accounts constitute "facts" with some "accuracy of the bad news", or at least admission of some "facts" with some "accuracy" of the news, whether bad or not?"

Certainly, the content of GSD's letter is a fact. But what legal facts it precisely points to, the specific agents involved, the contractual terms of the loan agreements, and most importantly, the actual extent of Gurinder's direct involvement and possible wrongdoing is to us as opaquely unknown as the precise meaning of Shiv Dayal Singh's cryptic comment: "what I had given out was that of Sat Nam and Anami. Radhasoami Faith has been introduced by Salig Ram. You should let it also continue."

[Nick GB]

This post says it all. It is good to see reflection on the ethical and philosophical side, without a focus on the legalistic and court procedures which all are current uncertainties.
The moral compass and focus is always current though. The post clearly and simply lays out the concerns with what is going on. The basic ethical 'facts' are simply that the equation of guru with excess wealth earned by dubious means just simply does not add up.
The post asks several times about what the objective might be in heaping up such gross and excess wealth. No answers seem forthcoming, either from those accruing it or from apologists. Certainly the notion that it is a test of the faithful is simply ludicrous.
Unfortunately it may be that it looks exactly like what it is; plain and simple money grubbing without much regard for anyone or anything except the financial gain of self and immediate family.
No need to drill any deeper to seek reasons, excuses, subtle understandings. Could be that a guru (being simply human) is prey to the same weaknesses, silliness, greed, selfishness and grasping as most of the rest of us.
In that sense we need not condemn. Neither should we turn a blind eye and excuse it in any way.
A number of 'followers' will find their faith damaged by this, but it is equally certain that a large bulk will remain untouched in blissful ignorance.

[Spence Tepper]

This is an excellent post that gets to the heart of the matter.

[tucson]

This whole thing reminds me of the Trump/Russia collusion investigation.

True believers in Trump's guilt still cling to that belief despite no evidence of collusion being found after 2+ years of investigation by the Mueller team.

True believers in GSD's innocence still cling to their belief despite mounds of evidence showing his impropriety and wrongdoing.

[anami]

Gee whiz, tucson. Thank you for your incisive analysis of the Mueller report that we haven't read yet.

[Jesse]

"Thank you for your incisive analysis of the Mueller report that we haven't read yet."
Thank your lot for 2 years of analysis of it before it was even finished, and thanks for every tv network, every Facebook group meme and half the world population for being so confident that Trump was going to jail. Thank you for being so gullible and quick to side with whatever foreign billionaire owned media told you was true.

I've been laughing the whole time but now I'm ecstatic. I love when people are both arrogant and wrong. It makes your failures taste so sweet.

[tucson]

Tell you what Anami. If there is an indictable offense in the Mueller report regarding election tampering by Trump with the Russian government that resulted in him getting elected in the 2016 presidential election when otherwise he would not and he is convicted of this in a court of law I will send you $1000. If there is no such indictable offense and conviction regarding election tampering with the Russian government by Trump then you send me $1000 (I'll donate it to a charity we both agree upon). I'm sure Blogger Brian will gleefully send you my contact information if I lose the wager. Time limit: 12:00 AM January 1, 2022 providing both of us are corporeal up to that date. Responsibility for this wager does not extend to my estate or to the heirs, beneficiaries and executors of it. Are you in? Or do you wish to wager more?

[Spence Tepper]

"Fake it until you make it" is very popular in real estate.

"Fake it until you make it" is a career path for Gurus.

But if you are a brain surgeon, a pilot or a hospital executive, it's a dangerous and harmful idea.

If you took an oath to do no harm, "fake it until you make it" is a bad choice.

[Jim Sutherland]

@ Tuscon & Jessie, I am a Red Blooded MEGA Red Hat wearing Deplorable with you Guys, but I just am unable to Astral Project back to my Feb 4, 1990 Proxy Charan Singh Initiation, and annul the Vows I took. I am still addicted to Charan’l Love.

Sorry Brian & Spence, but next time Charan visits me inside, I’ll give him your regards, and I’ll thank him for keeping me from eating the dead flesh of slaughtered Animals, Smoking Weed, or doing Drugs, or drinking Alcohol, or whoremongering and cheating on my wife, and for keeping me on the Path.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ohc1ypSXFc0&feature=youtu.be

Jim

[anami]

@tucson, @Jesse
No, thank you on the wager. I only visit here for purposes of thought. Here's what was behind my snark. tucson made a comparison between investigation of Trump and investigation of GSD, but he showed bias. He implied it was wrong to presume Trump's guilt but right to presume GSD's guilt. Presume equally one way or the other at least, and let's get the whole story on both figures. In the end, however, I'm also not that all attached to the outcomes. I don't know about you, but either way I'll still be dissatisfied with material existence, which I think is more important than the particulars.
Jesse celebrates when people are arrogant and wrong? I don't find much to celebrate in any of this. Not politically. Not spiritually.

[Jen]

Thanks Jim for the video.
Living in this difficult world of duality its good to see the positive and compassionate side. Also, sticking to the spiritual path gives life purpose in a good way. Nothing can beat love and kindness.

[Spence Tepper]

Hi Jim!
Who was the representative who initiated you?

[s*]

Thank you Jim!
Such a beautiful film this is..
No words..
<3

[Jim Sutherland]

@Spencer,......the Rep who shared Charan’s Initiation with me was Dr. Roland de Vries. Even he, was part the the miracle that convinced me I had been marked for Charan. Roland was a Seminary Th.D. Grad, as I was, and when I initially applied for Initiation, he interviewed me, on the phone, and we had a long hearty discussion about my Christian background, and we swapped stories about when we both were in Pastoral Ministries, and why Sant Mat was what Jesus initiated his Desciples in to . Roland was a very important Link in my decision to be initiated by Charan.
Jim

[Jesse]

Anami, the reason one would assume guilt in one case and innocence in another is because there is enough evidence to reasonably do so. Lay people are not bound to the rules of courts of law when forming opinions.

The only evidence in the case of Trump was every overpaid and unqualified pleb on TV saying they wanted it to be true. In the case of Gurinder the evidence was him essentially being caught in the act.

You should celebrate this kind of stuff more, in my opinion. The world is a twisted and funny place sometimes. You're not ever going to find some utopia here, and you're not gonna find sach khand either. You might as well laugh instead of being all sad that a bearded man a million miles away stole some money, or a real estate mogul became president and got away with colluding with Israel by Israelis in America using the smokescreen of accusing him of colluding with Russia. You live in a joke. It truly is clown world. HONK

[s*]

When the Path was only about Love and Meditation and Sewa and Vegetarian foods..

..............

[Jim Sutherland]

Robin Hood is a Hero Legion , who robbed the Rich to give to the Poor. If GSD is ever proven in Court, by a “ Jury of his Peers” to be found guilty of enough financial fraud to be put in Prison, he may become the new Indian Robin Hood Guru as the Guru who robbed the Rich to heal the poor.

Rumors have it, that there are over 150,000 Registered Patients that are receiving FREE Hospital, and Out Patient Care, that is provided by the Charitable Hospitals within the RSSB Organization, over seen by Guru GSD, and his Associates, and most of them are not RSSB Initiates!

I realize that to Americans, or other Foreigners living in other remote countries, we have untold millions that are with out any provided free Medical care in our own immediate countries, but it still is easy to understand why no Jury in India will ever convict GSD of personal fraud, nor shut RSSB down, and force the people, the Poor people away from the provisions and services that the Rich are providing that Robin Hood GSD continues to manage.

Who, in this Church, sitting as a Jurer at GSD’s Trial, would declare him Guilty of robbing the Poor to feed the Rich, and allow a Judge to shut down and auction off RSSB properties and the Charitable Hospital System?

Jim

[s*]

Hi Jim..I was thinking of Robbin Hood too..
If that is the case..
<3

[In Search Of]

You know, it's really unbelievable that we all can get fanatical about this stuff. Do what feels right.
If you have faith in a living guru with the knowledge that there is stuff going on behind the scenes and you want to be oblivious to it all. Fine, be that way.

If you want to be that way, then you have no basis to have an educated and thoughtful conversation of the facts, allegations, and findings before the courts, the Supreme Court of India, no less.

So if you're happy and you know it, keep on trucking, and the comments here don't apply to you. Live in ignorant bliss. For those of us who see things that are reality based and require some introspection and thoughtful review of what's going on in the REAL world, we need answers, accountable responses, and so on.

To be quite honest, I don't believe you're gonna a even one statement from Mr. Dhillon. He was for the most part a minority shareholder, with others, his immediate family, and Godhwani, being the individuals on the nameplates, so to speak. The monies will be arranged somehow and blame will be put against the people who will take the fall. There has to be an end game here obviously.

At the end of it all, the perception, legal posturing, and personal attacks will die off. Then what?
Has your "faith" been shaken? If not, then you're good to go. If yes, then as an individual, we have a decision to make if the path still holds true with or without the PLM.

It's a path to discovery of our Self. How we go about it is our choice. It bugs me to no end when initiates of RSSB have the arrogance to say it's the Guru's way, or you're screwed. There are other methods, ways, lifestyles, meditation that will lead to inner peace. GSD has stated this himself. So get off your freaking high horses and move on.

Take a good hard look at the end game folks.

[anami]

Hey, Jesse (and tucson).
Israel. Hmm, never heard that angle. Could be, could be. Thank you for expanding, and that's a sincere thank you.
For me, Sant Mat is still for real in spite of everything. Even in the hypothetical extreme that Gurinder faces jail or RSSB is sold off for parts, it could all be in the cosmic plan. You can fault me for naivete, that's okay. It's not that I'm a person proud in his rock solid faith or anything like that. I see displays of it, and think, "That's all show." I read a Bloomberg article about the scandal in February, went around in a daze for 48 hours, then woke up and realized, to my curiosity, that I still identify as a satsangi. It's just part of my fabric at this point. I can't help it. I see nothing wrong with those who've turned away, because I've always had my own lapses.
What do they say about initiation? We chain ourselves to a bulldozer, and if we don't come along, we'll be dragged along. Maybe, maybe not. What happens with others is none of my business. I overreacted yesterday. Better I should keep out of the fray.

[Phil UK]

Nobody ever notices indecent behavior
So if even 2 trillion was harvested and spend as Jim said

Jim You made my day

Sure that >60 Million Nirangkaris ( They put Compassion FAR above enlightenment)
will applaudeand the HC judge big smile

[Spence Tepper]

Hi Jim
Roland initiated me too, in '77

[Phil]

After all : the about ten Million $ my grandfather's supported
is t. m. h. o. , the TOTAL base capital of Religare
minus some Nepal help
Many Millions of sick worldwide were helped by their cheap drug carbon copies, generics
Of course kal's FDA found a way to finish that

Family settings is that Mohan ( Mimi's Spouse) would give it back to Gurinder / Rssb
when things flourished !

This was not done yet
Karma_wise it's perfect

I'm thrilled

Phil UK
(via iPhone)

[Spence Tepper]

Hi Jim
Yes RSSB does incredible chairitable work, just like the church. Almost all hospitals in America were Catholic, Methodist, Lutheran, or Protestant, or Jewish hospitals before the wave of privatization.

But these church organizations also have had a history of human failings and much harm to innocent people as well.

And the Popes and priests lived like Kings while the people suffered. They too pointed to their charity as an excuse for their avarice.

It is a mixed bag.

Gurinder, like each of us, is responsible for his own actions. If he owes money, he should be honest about it and do what he can to pay.

And if we can believe what we see about the charity work, and and it, it is also fine to ask why a charitable hospital serving the poor in a remote area was demolished and the land sold to private interests, Gurinder's own private holding company?

Why is another 200 bed hospital RSSB hospital, a new one, built with RSSB money, now operating as a Fortis for - profit hospital? And no longer a free charitable hospital?

Why was the free school in Delhi for the poor demolished and land sold to a real estate tycoon while another school was built, yes a free school, but on the grounds of the Dera serving primarily Dera residents?

Why were Dera funds wrapped up in the financial dealings of Religare, when it was engaged in fraud?

One set of facts doesn't negate the other. One innocent life of a stranger must not be harmed to help a life of a close friend.

Because we should all be good neighbors, even and especially with those far away who truly need the help. I think you know about that lesson.

[jay]

"It bugs me to no end when initiates of RSSB have the arrogance to say it's the Guru's way, or you're screwed. There are other methods, ways, lifestyles, meditation that will lead to inner peace. GSD has stated this himself. So get off your freaking high horses and move on."

The arrogance comes directly from the gurus. Neither Gurinder or any Sant mat guru has ever said that any spiritual path is the equal of sant mat. If Gurinder has actually said that there are other methods that are the equal of sant mat, there must be an issue of Spiritual Link where he's quoted. I don't believe there is. Moreover, no sant mat guru will credit another sant mat guru outside of his lineage as being a competent guru.

Jaimal Singh called Rai Saligram a bogus guru. Saligram, in turn, had no truck with Jaimal. Kirpal Singh and Jagat didn't get along at all, and Kirpal as much as said Jagat was a bogus guru. Kirpal also implied much the same about Charan Singh. Charan Singh saw Kirpal as a deplorable renegade, The Kirpal line of gurus treats the RSSB line as if it didn't exist. The point here is that the sant mat gurus can't even bear to say other sant mat lines are legit. That says volumes about what they think about other religions.

And what does sant mat think about other religions? Well, there's Dr. Johnson's THE PATH OF THE MASTERS, a bulky exposition of how all religions are crap compared to sant mat. Then there are Charan's own books about Christianity being corrupted sant mat. Then there are Charan's disparaging comments about Hinduism and Buddhism in his talks.

Sant mat holds itself superior. Sant mat doesn't teach, has never taught since Sar Bachan, the sentiment that all religions are somehow the same.

If it's true that Gurinder said "it's my way or the highway," it's a very clumsy and obnoxious way to describe the place of the initiate in sant mat. But it is accurate.

[s*]

Dear people,
I personaly am positively touched by the film.
Atough I am not a believer in this path anymore.
I keep the good things in my heart!
But I can never be the satsangi who I once was.
I do’nt believe in transmigration in the santmat way,it is fear mongering!!
The money thing is totaly weird.
The film touches me..some shabds touch me,sometimes very much even..
Altough I cannot believe in the perfect living master for a longer time now.
It is our very own love what is felt.

[s*]

Maybe my post vanished,because I was scrolling.
Anyways i can never be the satsangi that I once was.
Sometimes I still get touched by forinstance such a film..it reminds me..
Also shabds can touch my heart deeply.
It is my very own love what is felt.
We all have that love,that can be touched by some things.
So I see it.
It not the gihf.
It is in ones own heart

[Jim Sutherland]

@anami,....I am in agreement with you, regarding no matter what happens to, and at the Dera,...Sant Mat is not a Sham. The Philosophy, and Meditation Technique, we were all initiated in to, delivers the Promises, as clearly described by The Great Master, Sawan Singh, in his Book “ Spiritual Gems”.

I have tried every Technique method I ever read about, over the 30+ years I have been meditating. Like Iswar Puri said he did, I also accepted Sawan Singh’s Challege, to try any thing I felt like, and if I ever found any thing better, to report back, and he would try it.

But I never did find any thing better, including Brian’s Vispassana Buddhist Practice he hypes. Letting the mind rome free, with out harnessing it at the Third Eye, Tishra Til, by Simran of the 5 Names, does not, EVER deliver Sawan’s promises of first, seeing flashes of Light, then the Light, then the Sun, then the Moon, all in that Order, by doing 2 hours of silent 5 Name Simran, by focusing there, at the Third Eye. Then surely, the Sound will be right there, before, or at two hours, and we are to listen, do Bahjun, for either the Conch, then the Bell, and ignoring all other sounds, and stop doing Simran, and listen to the Bell only, which will launch us in to..........

I tried Vispassana for a week, recently, just to compare, and every time, my attention wandered down in to the lower realms, where Lucid Dreams occurr. There are dozens and dozens of scenic sites there, many colors, people, places, and things, but those lower realms are ALL below, or before the Light, which to me, is my Star Gate, appears at the Third Eye.the Spiritual Path BEGINS, right thete, at the Third Eye, when the star Gate appears.

All sites and sounds below using the other meditation techniques, will never deliver Sawan’s promises,

I meditated with the Monks in many Monastaries in Bhutan, including The Tiger’s Nest, and never went beyond the Third Eye. I never went beyond when I was at the Dali Lama’s Palice in Tibet, either.

I also tried Yogananada’s Kriya Breathing Prananama exercises, doing the Hung Saw until I was dizzy, and never once reached the Star Gate using that technique. I read the entire 1400 pages of Yogananda’s Mail Order Lessons, many times, and regardless of what others say, they never delivered the Star Gate, Sun, Moon, Conch, and Bell.

Sant Mat Meditators will KNOW they have entered the Astral Plane, after seeing the Moon, when they SEE the Blue Sky!

So,again, regardless of what either happened at the Dera, or whether GSD is not Radhasoami posing as GIHF, Sant Mat delivers the Promises , at least, what Sawan promised, in Spiritual Gems, if Initiates do their Meditation as instructed at Initiation.
Jim

[Arjuna]

@ s. hello

Stay strong - love is all we need. If we have that then we not fear death in the end.

Loved reading your post.

Stay strong sister

[Dungeness]

The arrogance comes directly from the gurus. Neither Gurinder or any Sant mat guru has ever said that any spiritual path is the equal of sant mat.

Hi Jay,

I think any deprecation of others is likely to come from overzealous
supporters, not gurus. As far as I know, modern RSSB gurus all decline
to comment negatively on other paths or their teachers. Nor do they
hype San Mat as the only true path.

In suport of that, Ishwar Puri relates a remarkable conversation he
had with Great Master:

" Great Master said, 'Still, even now, if you find something better,"
(He is telling me when I am a teenager) He is telling me, 'If you in
your life ever find something better than what I am telling you,
the practice of the sound current to get your awareness, take it.
Don't wait for me, that, I give you permission in advance. If you
find something better, take it. And if I am still alive, come and tell
me also.' Master said, 'I'll also go and take it.' He was so open about
it, and I took him very seriously.

Even after that, I am still willing to look around at any possible way
of a higher discovery something better than what I have, and I'll
take it. Right there and then, I will take it, and advise everybody else
to take it. In November I'll be 87 years old and I have been initiated
now more than 70 years, which is a long time. And so I have tried for
all this period, at least 70 years, to look for something better. I didn't
say something better will come to me. I've gone out to meet swamis,
yogis, mystics, masters, every kind to find out is there a better way,
something that can more easily help us to discover who we are. I've
not found it. If anybody can tell me, I will follow it, even now. "

[Spence Tepper]

Hi Jay
You wrote "The arrogance comes directly from the gurus. Neither Gurinder or any Sant mat guru has ever said that any spiritual path is the equal of sant mat. If Gurinder has actually said that there are other methods that are the equal of sant mat, there must be an issue of Spiritual Link where he's quoted. I don't believe there is. Moreover, no sant mat guru will credit another sant mat guru outside of his lineage as being a competent guru."

Well,I would like Gurinder to pay his bills, and willing to help out in what small way I can. But as to your statement, I was at Fayetteville when Gurinder told a crowd of 5,000 that Sant Mat was not the only path to Salvation and emancipation of the Soul. He added, there are other paths, and it is a personal matter.

Of course this was a little disturbing to some, but made perfect sense to others. Students each have different needs.

[PJ]

@Jim Fascinating. What do you think about Jurgen Ziewe's OM mediation? You said he was a TMer, so maybe his mantra is more than just that one syllable. He mentions concentrating in the center of his head, so it's very similar.

Maybe the mantra doesn't matter. Or perhaps it does!

[D]

Show which higher spiritual path than Sant mat as taught by RSSB gurus.

There isn't one.

[s*]

That is very nice Arjuna,.
Thank you..

[Spence Tepper]

Hi D
The formal RSSB contains the same teachings as many others : hearing the divine Word, and rising to the highest heavens by hearing that music of the spheres.

That's been going on since the beginning of human recorded history, and you can find examples of it from varies sources, including the poetry of Emily Dickenson, Lord Alfred Tennyson, Fray Luis De Leon, the writings of Plato, Clement of Alexandria, St Paul, Jesus, the brothers of the Philokalia, St. John of the Cross, Tolstoy, and all the saints of the Granth. Many of these do mention a teacher, but it is never a formal position, only the help of a good friend

None of them called it Sant Mat. It can be found in the writings most religions, including ancient Judaica and describes the same fundamentals... Emancipation through a focused, simple, just life on the divine Name that is heard as various beautiful sounds within, that pulls the soul from the body up into the highest regions, "the third Heaven"... Etc..

But while these religions have all sorts of codified rules, none lay out a formal mechanism for meditation from a Guru, or raise any teacher to the level of God.

The exact vows, the method of meditation, and the necessity of a Saint are all variant however and a matter of conjecture.

No Sant Mat and the organization of RSSB are not the only path at all, and at best a somewhat degraded reflection of something natural within everyone.

Indeed they are a man made approach to what once was an ancient teaching handed down in secrecy, informally from one good friend to another.

RSSB is very far from that today.

Indeed the self - congratulatory video that raises the guru up on a public platform of endless praise is an abomination to the simplicity of the true teachings and practice.

[Jim Sutherland]

@PJ,...re Jurgen. I like Jurgen a lot, as a friend, and because of his generosity of sharing his inner experiences with any one interested. Not only does he share lots of free valuable information on his Web site, but he also shares valuable information on his Youtube Interviews. Then, of course, his Books share most of his inner experiences. He is writting a Book, not finished yet, where he says he will share the different Meditation Techniques he has used to travel the Inner Realms. I am in contact with him, privately, on Facebook Messenger, but he is a very busy man, and is heavily invloved with all of his writing, drawing, and traveling to give Lectures. He started with TM, but expanded from there. He has a good friend that is an old Kirpal Initiate, who gave him a Book about the Inner experinces of a man named ‘James”, that described the Inner Planes as good or better than Sar Bachun, Prose, IMO. Any way, Jurgen is one of my very favorate Mystics, out side of the Sant Mat Tribe. You can read all of his free sharing on his Web Site and on Youtube, and you will know as much about him as I do. We are friends on Facebook, so he sees all of my travel photos, plus, he has read most of my posts on my Blog, so he knows my back ground. I recently Linked him to Sawan Singh’s Meditation Technique, posted in my Blog, taken from his Book, Spiritual Gems. He has not commented on it yet. Now, with all I have read, of Jurgen’s Books, Articles, etc., at least of what he has generously shared, my opinion is, he has not yet found the way to enter the Star Gate at will, or by what ever Meditation Tech. He uses, to START the Spiritual Journey, above the Third Eye. All I have read that he has shared, are the Lucid Dreams type experinces, that happen in the Meditation techniques such as Kriya Yoga, i.e. Yogananda's Hung Saw Pranayama spiritual exercises, Kundalini Yoga, and Mindful Meditation such as Vispassana Buddhist “let your mind rest and Rome” type of exercises. These all lead to the Lucid Dreams when focus,i.e., Surat, drops to the Throat Chakra, when the Bridle is removed from the Focus or the Simran is not used. As for TM, its a similar Technique to Sant Mat, but two 20 minute Meditations per day will never get you any where near the Star Gate where you will start the real Spiritual Path. TM is a decent warm up, for the Radhasoami Tech, IMO, but it will never get you where Sant Mat Initiates that meditate daily access.
Jim

[Jim Sutherland]

This is the Link to the Book, that Jurgen’s friend, the Kirpal Singh Initiate, gave Jurgen to read, when they were on a Retreat together, at a Monastary on a Greek Island. The Book is fabulous, IMO, and after reading it, I recognize many of the experinces written about by Jurgen, came from this Book.
https://b-ok.cc/book/2081174/c43b23
Jim

[Jim Sutherland]

@PJ,...regarding the Mantra. To me, it DOES seem to make a difference! Over the years, I also have experimented with just about all I have encountered, and gave each of them, an Equal Opportunity to deliver me to the Star Gate, where the Spiritual Realm STARTS, i.e. at the Third Eye. None of them did. I had all of the TM Mantras, for at least, the last 25 years, and have tried them all, as my age changes, because a different TM Mantra is given to each age group. I alo used the Christian Mantra, as well, but alone, none of them has ever brought me to the entrance of The Star Gate, except the 5 Name Simran, as all Sant Mat Initiates were given. But, starting about 25 years ago, I have been using a 6 Name Mantra, as I have added RADHASOAMI to the end of the 5 Names, because of reasons I picked up from reading the Parent Agra Soamibagh Books. They use ONLY RADHASOAMI, as their entire Mantra, but I also tried that, alone, for weeks, and it never delivered me to The Star Gate. The 5 Names, is what gets me there, but RADHASOAMI addition KEEPS me above the Star Gate, once I, pass thru, because once I pass thru, and have already climbed the Stars to the 5th Stair, i.e. Sat Nam, then RADHASOAMI is 3 Stairs ABOVE Sat Nam, where I want stay at, for as long as possible, so repetition of the 1st Name of the 5, drops me back to the 1st Stair on the Star Way to the Journey of Souls where the Star Gate is the entrance!
Jim

[s*]

To God..;0) techniques and words does not matter..at all..
It is about what is in the heart that ''matters.''( everyone is from god and has a role to play)
One can do the meditations as one finds it nice or fine or helpfull.
The stillpoint is a very good thing.
To be still in the middle of storms..even..

''Be still and know that I am God..''
Or Conciousness or Oness...

[Dungeness]

Indeed the self - congratulatory video that raises the guru up on a public platform of endless praise is an abomination to the simplicity of the true teachings and practice.

Dear Spence,

I'm not sure what video you're referencing but, in general, I disagree.
Mysticism is really about what's within: the inner guru, not the outer.
For most of us, struggling with the mind, what's inside is still unrealized.

So the outer Guru remains an anchor spiritually and all RSSB masters
continuously redirect our attention back inside to the inner Form.
If the affection of disciples overflows at times. it's not really an
abomination in any sense. Ultimately, they're on the right track.
For many, that kind of one pointedness and devotion will lift them
beyond ritual into greater awareness.

[Phil]

Gurinder, like each of us, is responsible for his own actions. (. Spence. )

He works totally on intuition, Mega Intuition
like the prophets, following the MauJ , that is what nobody can understand

I would trade my karma with Gurinder"s within a milli second !

Phil UK

[Phil]

Jay :There are other methods, ways, lifestyles, meditation that will lead to inner peace.

Sant Mat ie to be God, not only have peace !

Phil
UK

[Phil]

Jim
I tried Vispassana for a week, recently, just to compare, and every time, my attention wandered down in to the lower realms, where Lucid Dreams occurr.

Read Bardo Todol

Vipassana is exactly the opposite
It's not Buddism

Ph

S+
Chaurassi. : You brought it to human form ( One in a trillion

You must be very hateful to be reborn as a lower species
You are only disturbed, have still the Love

[Arjuna]

@ Phil - hello .

I was reading your post and a thought appeared to me. If Brian (exers) try those lower realm mediations where the uninitiated would be at risk from forces much more powerful than ours- would you not say that they are still safe as they have His light shining in them.

[D]

Spence Tepper what "abomination" are you going on about?

Whether you're referencing Abraham -Isaac - Jacob
or Moses - Joshua - Elijah - Samuel - Jeremiah - Ezekiel - Isaiah

Socrates - Plato - Aristotle - Plotinus -Pythagoras

Or Johanan - Jeshua - Shimon - Shaul
(John - Jesus - Simon - Paul)

Or Shams i Tabriz - Jal al din Rumi -Hafiz - Kabir

Nanak - Angad - Amar Das - Ram Das - Arjan

All of whom are dead and cannot offer you anything of tangible influence today.

And Including Seth Shiv Dayal - Jaimal - Sawan - Jagat - and Charan Singh

The mystic path remains the same.

The teacher connects the disciple to the source of anahad shabd, hukm, kalma, logos, word, celestial melody, through means best directed by meditative practice and guides disciple inwards.

My question is show a higher spiritual path as taught by RSSB gurus (by your own experience) in current format today.

I haven't come across one.
If you have and have personal experience to vouch such 'spiritual path' can lead you to higher realm than Sant mat as taught by RS guru's then show it, enlighten me.

[Spence Tepper]

Hi Dungeness
Joy itself is not a virtue. It isn't a proof of doing good, or a reason to ignore or dismiss harm. That's when praise and worship become abominations.

[D]

A friend of mine was an advanced instructor in TM meditation

He was practicing austere trancendental meditation for long hours daily as prescribed by Maharishi Mahesh Yogi. He was in fact training as instructor in thar system.

He had kundalini experience and crashed psychologically. Blew his entire psychological equilibrium and had severe nervous breakdown.

Was hospitalised with advanced schizophrenic symptoms and administered psychological medication till he died from jumping off a 7 storey building about 15 years later.

Certain systems have nil - zero protection once elevated consciousness unguided occurs.

[PJ]

@Jim Many Thanks for that information! and I will look out for Jurgen's next book.

[UK Phil]

Arjuna
are still safe as they have His light shining in them

That depends on the semintics / interpretation of 'safe'

All Souls in creation are Hyper Safe
while being in the time mill

Also
The reward for hate is hate
Charan will not remove hate, He can't
Creation can. As we know almost nothing and nobody comes with a better proposition , why would we take risks
Like : Jim wouldn't ask initiation or help from Ishwar
There is also this banned very old guy and his great stories
Who thinks he lied all that he told here, not even Brian
So why he banned an old man almost 100 if not by hate

My grandfather and my father and other older satsangis here in our UK really walk(ed) in life the whole time 'talking' and really 'seeing' MaharaJI
who also provided miraculous stuff for them
Like little corrections on Einsteins's laws
like if this creation was a computergame to Him , He was good at
For all of us unbelievable and Hope generating

We couldn't say Maharaji 'came' , He was there all the time
When grandfather died many saw the Radha Soami Master and
the billion of angels around him

[Spencer Tepper]

Hi D
You asked
"My question is show a higher spiritual path as taught by RSSB gurus (by your own experience) in current format today."

Any path of spirituality that advocates avoiding material gain and instead focusing on spiritual gain.

Any such path is superior today, to RSSB.

As for the teachings, it's one thing to offer them up, and another to live by them.

All true saints are a role model of humility, temperance and the opposite of greed...placing their wealth in higher things.

You cannot serve the material and the spiritual world. You cannot have two Masters.

If you pick the Spiritual path, to gain spiritual progress, you have already placed the worldly path, focused on worldly gain, behind you.

As Baba Ji said, your progress takes place when this isn't just a hobby, but your chosen profession.

However, while that teaching is true, the leader must live it.

Once the leader chooses material gain, the whole structure is based on sand, and not on rock.

Words aside, actions are the only language of love and spirituality.

[Arjuna]

@ Phil - I really enjoyed reading that. ESP about Charan Master - He once stood in front of me and smiled whilst he walked from his chair - he folded his arms. His smile was almost like well here we are again Little one. I was 5.

I love him and miss him. I am initiated by the present master.

I was ill was in a nearly in a coma so to speak - all I remember is total darkness and the current master coming over to my bed (I was looking at my own body) I heard him say “get out”. I still to this day don’t know what he meant bar can only imagine it was something scary He was looking at.

All the very best

[Phil]

@Arjuna

You are double initiated
now use the words like bullets, bombs and get out of you
which means the same as get In. haha
Thanks for your nice words

RS Phil

[Jim Sutherland]

@UK Phil writes,....”Like : Jim wouldn't ask initiation or help from Ishwar”

Me: Not sure exactly what you meant here, but I surely would never think, of asking Ishwar to reinitiate me, by his method of asking Sawan if its OK. To me, that would be for me to be declaring Charan’s Initiate worn out, with connections severed, and Null & Void.

But, I have listened to many of Ishwar’s Youtube Satsangs, which I have gained help from. I don’t agree with every thing he says, but for English speaking Westeners, I think he teaches Sant Mat One with the most clarity to Western Seekers available. Yet, his Initiaton technique would not end my searching, if I was a Seeker still searching. His Method requires the Faith from Seekers thst Sawan is hoovering over Iswar’s shoulder, either giving the Nod, or rejecting the Applicant being Marked for Initiation. And we know, that dead Masters do not initiate live Seekers. They both must be in bodies at the same time. ( Sant Mat 101 )
Jim

[Tim Rimmer]

Hi Dungeness

For a minute or so I thought you’d been initiated for 70 years, but then realised the paragraphs were from Ishwar Puri. Nevertheless it’s good to see the conversation moving back towards people sharing their experiences/spiritual journeys - I guess we are all still trying to get a handle on this mystery of life/death, who we are etc. Some of the new comments on this blog, probably reflect the big question mark that has popped up in regard to the RSSB teachings in light of what clearly seems to be un-GIHF behaviour etc.
Many of us tried various techniques and other paths prior and subsequent to getting initiated into Sant Mat. I appreciate what Jim shares, and like him I gave TM, SRF, but also Sufism and Siddha Yoga a shot (amongst others) in the early days. What finally convinced me about Sant Mat was what another so-called Teacher/Master said in response to one of my questions: “There are seven Perfect Masters in the world and Charan Singh is one of them”. I mention Charan Singh because I recently watched one of David Lane’s videos highlighting what I consider is the ‘highest’ of all paths - the path of surrender see: https://youtu.be/-_L5sWz6b1k. Got to admit the start particularly, and accompanying music pulled on the heart strings.
Yet how many of us can just completely hand it over? And who/what is it that does this? I think any approach that points out and helps us to let go our false beliefs, especially belief in a separate ‘self’ is useful. Several meditational traditions can facilitate this. We could call this the long path - finally we reduce the struggling, seeking and striving and learn to be with ‘what is’. It’s my view that this state is similar to what happens to the surrenderer when they present their head on a plate to the beloved. But that’s just my take on it.
All the best.

[Spence Tepper]

The idea that we could find a better path is of course, placing that decision in our hands. And that decision will be made  upon our experience and judgment. The Saints encourage us to do so, as best we can.

If someone chooses, using their best judgment, to do something differently than you, it can only be because their experience and conditioning, their culture and upbringing lead them to that decision.

Therefore since we are not privy to those things, only our own, we cannot judge someone else's decision.

You can't honestly say "He's wrong" on matters where there is no objective data that anyone can verify for themselves.

When someone ignores objective data in favor only of subjective experience, while that is certainly their decision,  it's not transferable to anyone else. Why ignore the facts?

Shouldn't truth contain all objective and subjective facts?

When they are compelled by their experience to both embrace faith  and at the same time reject hard facts, that cannot compel anyone else. That is a purely private matter. And they may wish to be grateful for such experiences. That is their  own treasure. If it is real and not a show.

There are signs when such love is real. When a school serving the poor is torn down, they move to rebuild it. They don't ask permission. They don't question or ignore the reality of what has happened. They don't complain. They don't blame. They don't try to justify the destruction and harm. They organize themselves and rebuild it with their own funds. They are moved by real love for those who will never be able to repay. Not merely love for their Master. But the love of a Master for humanity.

When a hospital serving the poor is destroyed, they pull their brothers and sisters together, raise funds and rebuild it. They just do it naturally.

When their leader says "This isn't a charity" they reply, "Yes Master, true, for your organization is whatever you make it. So we will start a new charity, because our love  compels us to be charitable... Not to win your favor, not only because your told us to, but because we are compelled to do so. You planted that in us, now it grows all its own. It has matured.

But if another is compelled by hard facts to place internal experience and feelings as a lower priority in the decision process, who dare suggest they ignore such evidence of harm and degrade their own judgment?

In this matter I humbly suggest it is better to say "I honour that what you believe is right for you. And I also honor my own vow not to harm or contribute to harm, as best I can."

We may have to agree to disagree on such matters.

As for the question of finding a better path, I think it may be generally a two step process.

When you realize the organization's leader you have loved and supported doesn't actually live by their own teachings, then they are no longer a valid authority of those teachings.

Teachings may be perfect. But the path of following that leader is no longer as stated.

Therefore any other avenue to pursue those teachings, even alone, is a superior path.

And here is why.

We are imperfect. So it is likely we will not choose perfect teachers, though they may be advertised as such. So why should we be surprised? Time to grow up.

But if you have faith in the Lord, and you refuse to support criminal activity, then God Himself will give you a better teacher. At the point you have done your best, we honor what we learned and keep moving forward. It falls upon Him to come to your aid. Because you cannot bring yourself to perfection. But we still have to do our part.

We can exercise our limited capacity to know right from wrong.  Give that up and we are ready to return to transmigration. Then we have turned away from the capacity gifted to us in this life.

A good dog will always have greater obedience than a human.

Dogs are pack animals. They were made for obedience. They perfect it.

Human beings have a higher purpose.

[Jesse]

"Show which higher spiritual path than Sant mat as taught by RSSB gurus.

There isn't one."

"Teachings may be perfect. But the path of following that leader is no longer as stated."

How would anyone even know if some spiritual teachings are "perfect" or "the highest?" Every religion says that their teachings are the best. Even if you went up into some world made out of light, how would you know it was the highest? Maybe it's a trick to make you think you're in heaven, then after some time the whole heaven you're in deteriorates into a pit of fire.

Comparing religions or making claims to the inferiority or superiority of one over another is inherently dishonest. You can't know, so there's no point in talking about it.

[Spence Tepper]

Hi Jesse

Yes, as my young cousin likes to say "Comparisons are odious"...

However better or worse, higher or lower relative to where we are are certainly within our ability to see and understand. A person who takes responsibilities for their actions doesn't shy away from that much.

[jay]

To the issue of whether the Saints encourage us to find a higher path than sant mat"

There are 4 vows at RSSB (sant mat) initiation. The 4th vow as stated in the RSSB website: "To practice meditation with sincerity and dedication for two and a half hours daily, as taught at the time of Initiation"

How exactly is the initiate to truly investigate other paths, when he's vowed to do dhyan-guru-bhakti to his guru for 2.5 hours every day for the rest of his life?

Some might counter that the RSSB guru is lenient about the initiate's following of the vows, or lenient about them leaving "the" Path. I don't know of any evidence of such leniency. In Q&A's, I've heard Charan repeatedly say to doubting initiates that they willingly took the 4 vows for life, and that's that.

I have heard Charan say that one may make a thorough search of other religions BEFORE taking initiation. But again, I know of no time where he countenanced, let alone encouraged initiates to experientially investigate other kinds of meditation or spiritual practice. In fact, every Charan book is filled with his negative responses to seeker and initiate questions about non-sant mat practices and religions.

As for the apocryphal comments of those who say had intimate conversations with an RSSB guru that countermand what's written in RSSB books, I personally don't trust any of them.

[jay]

And also (from the RSSB website Seeker's Guide), "The instructions and techniques for meditation are given at the time of Initiation: meditation is NOT to be practised (sic) before Initiation."

This means that per RSSB's teachings, not only are you not allowed to investigate other meditation methods after you're initiated, you're also not allowed to investigate them if you have an interest in getting initiated.

[Spence Tepper]

Jay
You can follow all the vows and be a Satsangi but have no part in the RSSB organization.

The Guru may break the vows and is no longer a Satsangi. But they are the head of their organization.

So who left the path?

Not the ones who stick with their vows.

The organization is not the path.

Your practice is the path.

[Phil]

Oooooh. Guys, Girls

It is ALL Love

Jim
Consider it done

[jay]

Spence

I don't know what the "RSSB organization" or the Guru breaking the vows has to do with what I wrote about the claim that initiates are truly free to explore other forms of meditation. But as for the idea that the "practice is the path," that's not really what the sant mat gurus teach. And what they teach is absolute surrender to the guru. This teaching of absolute surrender and dogged loyalty and submission is found in Sar Bachan and is reiterated all the way to Gurinder's "it's my way or the highway." That being so, what is stated on the RSSB website Seeker's Guide about the vows is as much a part of the RSSB path as is the time the initiate spends in meditation.

[Phil]

absolute surrender to the guru

This can never be obtained , never nor by words, nor by acts
Every expression or thought would be hypocritical

See Swami Ji s prayer at the end of Puri's Radha Soami Teachings

The maximum we can do is pray, ask friendly to be helped with this
Next He might give you 'Love', . . . ALL consuming Love

and it is Love that will complete this Path, nothing else

Good idea to diminish critic

PHIL

[Spence Tepper]

Hi Jay
In Spiritual Gems Jaimal Singh encourages Sawan to see the guru as the lord and leave all worries to him, but to do his duty.

This is a path of Bahkti, of love. So the more you love without question, with complete surrender and devotion, the happier you become. You are giving your worries to the Master. It is a wonderful method using our own natural capacity to love, and the effect of focus of attention. It's a divine relationship.

But Jaimal Singh does more. He encourages Sawan to stay connected to the Shabd through all of life's events, that it is really the Shabd that will pull him up. So this transcends the body relationship of disciple and guru. At some point there is no difference. They are all one.

This focus helps us immensely. Divided interests unfortunately keep us from that progress.

And this is the problem when the Guru has their own material entanglements and is unable to pay their bills, or acts in a way to hurt anyone even inadvertently, such as closing down a charitable hospital for the poor, or moving a charitable hospital to private hands, or closing a free school for the poor and selling the land to real estate interests. Or uses Dera finances to help their own personal financial ambitions.

All of that is a distraction. A true Saint doesn't go near there. They live an exemplary life.

A person serious about Ahimsa and truth will be forced by their own inner love to acknowledge these things, offer assistance, and beg the parties involved, which include Guru and his immediate family, to live up to the vows and come clean as best they can. So that we can be as One again. This is what a good brother does to help the family, encourage honesty and progress.