« My Zen snow globe | Main | Rabbi Goldstein is wrong. A moment of silence in schools is useless. »

April 26, 2019

Comments

Feed You can follow this conversation by subscribing to the comment feed for this post.

GSD is an accessory to the crime. That is absolutely sick. I can’t even imagine how he handles cases of impropriety at the Dera. He is a VERY SICK PERSON.

I wish more people would come forward. Not only is he knowledgeable of and allowing sick things—horrible abuses to take place, I can assure when a person shows those kinds of traits,99% of the time they have done or are doing similar things. This has to stop. More people need to speak up.

Sonya, I agree. The guru is a very sick person. He demonstrates very little genuine compassion or empathy.

Regarding cases of impropriety at the Dera, Sheena wrote about an instance where Gurinder ignored a report of sexual molestation. Below is how I summed it up in a blog post. There's a screenshot of part of Sheena's book that describes this event in the post. See:

https://hinessight.blogs.com/church_of_the_churchless/2018/08/sheenas-memoirs-of-a-seeker-throws-light-on-gurinder-singh-dhillon.html

"In this excerpt Sheena mentions an incident of a woman being molested by a male sewadar that Gurinder Singh knew about, but ignored."

Gurinder's probably just a dumb bumpkin who is in over his head. Managing the emotions and dysfunctions of hundreds of thousands of people is nearly impossible. Not to mention that his position comes with no training manual or even historic references. Like a being King but also a psychiatrist and celebrity too, and bound by all kinds of laws and regulations from 100 different countries all at once. What a mess.

I would have just taken a few hundred thousand or a couple million dollars at the beginning of my guru career and left the dera altogether. Shaved off my beard, wear some dirty clothes and fade into obscurity on a farm somewhere smoking weed all day and playing guitar.

That's this Gurinder fools real sin. That he held on to this bullshit of juggling disciples problems for so long when he could have got out like a boss decades ago. Now all these faux pas of his are accumulating and he'll probably go to jail or something. Not even Manjit with all his magical powers can save him.

Brian, would suggest that you have the people who posted their recent comments

about alleged Sexual abuse and Suicide events into the form of a sworn affidavit

to establish credibility !.

Otherwise the people concerned, and you, leave your selves open to serious

charges under worldly and universal law!

This is disgusting!!! It’s a crime and the police should be told.

These kind of abusers leave lives damaged and must be put behind bars!!!

The listening is not there to eachother.

Only statements are made often.
That's what we hear again in this misserable answer here.
Because the mother..she must be more loving to the husband..My Holy God Gratious..:(
Totaly idiotic answer here..brrr shivering..

It is difficult to judge Gurinder's remarks because we weren't there.
We can only judge from the single witness.
From that perspective, if this is what was said, the suggestion is criminal.

Usually, Maharaji would say "I'm in no position to tell you what to do in your circumstance. You must make your own best decision..."

And then give his suggestion, which usually amounted to something like 'try to work it out without making the situation worse. "

To me the options are clear.
1. This is a serious mental problem that can take a lifetime to fix if all all. It has nothing to do to with mother or daughter and is a deeply embedded psychological problem the father has been carrying in secret perhaps for his entire life.
2. If the woman and daughter love this man, these are also the steps they can take to help him, and possibly save the marriage, under direction from professional resources.
3. The first step is to protect wife and daughter, assure their security, and that will require...
a. Finding alternate temporary secure living conditions immediately the husband cannot access. Could be with a trusted family member, a woman's safe house, or could be a motel in another town..
b. Secure from police a restraining order that requires husband to remain several miles from mother or daughter, home, school, and places of work, and to vacate his residence and find alternate living circumstances in order to comply.
c. Explain to the daughter the steps and reasons for them... They may not fully understand, but they will need to follow the mother's directions regardless in order to escape from the harm and potential further harm from the man.
d. Inform school, authorities and other family of the issues and the actions. The mother can get assistance from abused women's centers, and her local police will have access to these resources.
e. Institute divorce and criminal prosecution immediately.
f. Inform husband in email or written document detailing incidents of their behavior requiring these actions (this will be used in a court of law later) and asking for his full cooperation in order to lessen his potential jail time, and provide whatever chance there might be, after years of therapy, to have supervised future contact with mother or daughter.
g. In the above order.

Baba Ji, if He did not offer this alternative, is simply not suited to his job.

Yes, Brian, and be sure to have them swear on a stack of Bibles. Or on a stack of Life is Fair books--that should work.

John Soulman—
No one is saying that Gurinder is a pedophile, rapist, sexual abuser or murderer. Just that he routinely gives TERRIBLE advice. Really, really, really, astonishingly horrible advice. That's all.

Had Baba Ji made clear these necessary steps publicly, he would have also sent a message to the men : If you are doing this, leave the house and get yourself therapy and don't return without third party supervision, or turn yourself over to the police if you cannot do the above.

John Soulman,

Actually, giving really bad advice can potentially put other people in grave danger... so it's pretty serious. He should stop giving advice and just start fiving Satsangs. But I think the real reason he doesn't give Satsang very often at all is because it bores him and that's why he'd rather just talk to people. Can't say I blame him on that one... but to be safe--for everyone to be safer, he should stop answering questions.

@ life is about learning and the abuser must learn by being in prison - and most criminals don’t like having child abusers in their presence.

That is one hell of a dumb answer he game - I would ignore and tell the police!!! And RSSB cronies - you are reading this - wake up the bogeyman is coming for all of you!!!!!!

John Soulman, there's no law against speaking truth to power, in this case, the powerful guru of Radha Soami Satsang Beas. Gurinder Singh Dhillon is a public figure who is regularly featured in the Indian financial press, and not positively.

The guru's family was involved with massive fraudulent loans that bankrupted legitimate companies, and the money ended up in businesses controlled by the Dhillon's. The guru has been accused of criminal fraud and making death threats.

A book written by Sheena, a RSSB insider, mentions an incident of a woman being molested by a male volunteer at the RSSB headquarters that Gurinder Singh knew about, but ignored. Recent posts on this blog have shown that the guru doesn't take suicide threats seriously and downplays the reality of depression.

So as I and others have noted, Gurinder Singh Dhillon shouldn't be giving advice to people. He is uncaring and knows next to nothing about how to deal with mental health problems. Or in this case, child sex abuse.

What can be criminal is not notifying authorities of child sex abuse. By contrast, speaking out about those who ignore it is a very good thing.

He seems not comfortable in replying to worldly mistakes, situations, interventions etc as a spiritual figure- as divine Father for what He is approached for to find an early solution and added grace but He seems unable to justify His elevated place from even relying on worldly wisdom at times by either dodging or fumbling about the core issue.

May be He tries to advise diplomatically sometimes without taking sides or offending any of them whether a sufferer or the doer- criminal or whatever.

Matter would have however deserved an earliest approach from faithful neighbours or relatives and counselling sessions by some doctors before approaching police. Baba Ji may be advising ond similar lines because approaching police may have made her father a proven criminal even though he was one but it would have been better if he could be restored back as a sane guy - as a true father to his child by giving him a chance at the sane time without compromising situation against his daughter any further.

"Needless to say, something Huzur Maharaji would never have said, if for no other reason than he was an attorney."

I can't think of any reason to believe that Charan Singh would have necessarily counseled the women to go to the police. Maybe someone can point out where Charan ever advised a satsangi to use law enforcement in a family matter. Or when did Charan ever tell anyone there was a valid reason to get a divorce or marital separation? I've read the RSSB books and heard the tapes. Is there one instance where Charan told a satsangi with a family problem to do anything except "their duty" and work it out?

Once again in old Charan initiate land, Gurinder is damned for the same style of counseling and apologetics that Charan did for 40 years. And Charan is kept on his pedestal as a wise guru.

And though it may sound shocking, Gurinder's advice to the woman may not have been entirely unwise. We all know about the Catholic church's child abuse scandal, and their reluctance to make blanket rules of zero tolerance for every Catholic parish. The problem is that in some countries, an accusation of child abuse made to government authorities is itself a death sentence. I don't know if this applies to India, but it might, and it might be a factor in why RSSB gurus have typically not counseled satsangis to use government authorities to solve family problems.

Lest there be no misunderstanding, I do not think Gurinder's reported advice was wise. I think he should have at least counseled family separation for the sake of the young girl. I'm just saying that Gurinder is much the same as Charan Singh, in that both gurus put cultural principles and sant mat triumphalism ahead of everything else to those who sought their advice.



Lest there be no misunderstanding, I do not think Gurinder's reported advice was wise. I think he should have at least counseled family separation for the sake of the young girl. I'm just saying that Gurinder is much the same as Charan Singh, in that both gurus put cultural principles and sant mat triumphalism ahead of everything else to those who sought their advice.

I agree totally with Jay.

John Soulman was correct as well: those who witness criminal activity
or, who are reliably informed of criminal events, should submit a sworn
affidavit to the police. That's the important actionable role for those
wanting to "speak truth to power".

You can legitimately fault GSD for not advising victims that's it's a matter
to be reported to authorities, particularly if the setting were a private
interview. But in a large audience, there are those who can and will
provide legal advice/suggestions. Behind the scenes that may well
have been initiated by others or a signal sent to do so.

GSD in his role as spiritual teacher, as did Charan, will lay emphasis on
understanding, psychological and/or marital counseling, forgiveness,
family harmony, etc.

That reminds me of a story in the time of Jagat (or maybe Charan)
about a policeman escorting a criminal to jail, who stopped by Dera
to ask for a blessing in his judicial mission. Jagat/Charan responded
"No, Brother, this is the seat of mercy, not justice".

@jay
Lest there be no misunderstanding, I do not think Gurinder's reported advice was wise. I think he should have at least counseled family separation for the sake of the young girl. I'm just saying that Gurinder is much the same as Charan Singh, in that both gurus put cultural principles and sant mat triumphalism ahead of everything else to those who sought their advice.

Maybe it is not an cultural thing at all but just an policy as to how to deal in public with accusative complaints. That being the case, the window for meaningful reactions becomes very very small. Even the smallest empathic reaction would violate the rules of that policy.

Against the background of having read so many books and listen to so many tapes it will be easy for you to grasp this point of view

Hi Meditator
What is clear, if we believe the account, is Gurinder accepted responsibility to offer advice that he was not equipped to offer.

In an older time neighbors would have beaten or murdered the husband even without the wife's or daughter's knowledge, once they found out, perhaps from another girl in the same town. All they would be told was that there had been an accident. Not a great system of justice.

But today we don't even have that kind of visability . Therefore prosecution is a critical step to preventing the husband from harming not only his wife, daughter and other children the mother knew nothing about, but himself.

The steps outlined above are essential to limit further karmic damage.

Because pedophilia has a very low cure rate. Gentle steps only result in more harm to other children. Therefore escape, police and therapeutic intervention, immediate arrest, prosecution, etc are the only resources available to limit further harm.

If you can see this dispassionately you might glimpse the necessity.

Brian
Do people join Santmat to solve their worldly problems? Santmat is all about spirtual progress only and So is the Master. If the advice given by the Master for worldly problem looks unpractical or wrong ,one can proceed for other ways. Instead of highlighting and finding faults,you can simply advise her whatever you deem fit.
You have no sympathy with the victims. Your whole purpose is to criticize the Master for ehich uou have created this blog.But you are not ready to change the catagory RSSB of the blog to RSSB Criticism.
And one thing more,I think there is some lack of communication.
Either,Master has not heard the question properly or this is a false report.Normally,Master would advise to beat the person well and then
report to the police as well.
And was the lady so ignorant that she did not know the solution?Why did she not go to the police as soon as she came to know the crime .What was the need to ask this problem to the Master in audience? Is the Satsang held to hear all this?
One thing more,any person found doing sexual crime in the dera or any centre is first beaten well by the Sewadars and then moved out of dera and his entry is banned forever.
Whatever report you have about such incidents in dera is incomplete or false.

Apropos of this topic of how the guru's decisions impact people's lives, here's something I ran across in Wikipedia about Syd Barrett, a founding member of Pink Floyd:

"During this summer Barrett had his first LSD trip in the garden of friend Dave Gale with Ian Moore and Storm Thorgerson. That summer, as a consequence of the continuation of drug use, the band became absorbed in Sant Mat, a Sikh sect. Storm Thorgerson (then living on Earlham Street) and Barrett went to a London hotel to meet the sect's guru; Thorgerson managed to join the sect, while Barrett, however, was deemed too young to join. Thorgerson perceives this as a deeply important event in Barrett's life, as he was intensely upset by the rejection."

As many here no doubt know, Syd Barrett's life fell apart. It's anyone's guess whether getting initiation would have saved him, or whether his life would have followed the same path.

Gurinder kicked two families out of the Dera a year or so ago because their son/s were involved some sexual misconduct. He was swift and harsh with both families and held the parents responsible for their kids behavior.

I’m “reporting” this just to be fair. I think the backlash he received from some of the advice he had given in the past as well as Sheena’s book caused him to do a 180... it takes something pretty major for Gurinder to listen and maybe enough complaints and people coming forward forced him to handle things better.

"And Charan is kept on his pedestal as a wise guru."

The deader you are and the more time that's elapsed only adds to your mystic mystique.

The living ones are gurus, guides, shamans, Manjits. The dead become God.


Hypocrites, the struggling mosquitoes of physical realm,
are advising the Master of the Sach Khand to not to give advise.

Comments are more laughable than the post.

"Gurinder kicked two families out of the Dera a year or so ago because their son/s were involved some sexual misconduct."

Sonya, were they kicked out for "sexual misconduct" or were they kicked out for having sex? Because many Indians are very much anti-sex. Abuse, molestation, or rape can all be excused, blamed on the victim or somehow ignored, but 2 young people having consensual sex is often considered beyond the pale and grounds for severe and often violent punishment.

You can go on youtube or liveleak and watch videos of police (often times female) beating couples on the street for holding hands. And then also search the news over there for frequent stories of police and politicians explaining how rapes either aren't happening or how women need to wear saris instead of jeans even though they usually get raped while wearing saris or salwar kamiz....

actually don't try to figure this stuff out. It's all really twisted and frightening. Soon going global, too, thanks to corporate desire for cheap labor and a easily manipulated fractured society of culturally incompatible ethnicities battling each other instead of their corrupt leaders.

I'm so happy and excited about the future!

Hi One Initiated
You wrote
"Hypocrites, the struggling mosquitoes of physical realm,
are advising the Master of the Sach Khand to not to give advise.

Comments are more laughable than the post."

Who else should we be talking about?
Really? Think about it.
Is there anyone else in the entire creation worth even a moment's attention?
No. They're isn't.
So for better or worse, in good mood or bad, mildly critical or deeply critical, hateful, angry, even filled with rage, else?

Honestly, One, take a step back.
Everyone is here precisely because He is the only one.
So that's everything in our capacity, to hate, to love, to honor, to criticize, all of it, either our good side or our bad side, or his good side or his bad side, but every day, our attention, on Him 24/7 whether we like it or not. Whether respectful or not.

This is why Brian is His bulldozer.

Take two steps back please and look at this from space.


Mr Spence, Good morning.

Perhaps it would have been far better if He could have kept one each among us as His interlocutor in different countries for a practical and appropriate reply to worldly problems faced by His disciples handling of which varies from region to region b' cos prior to their stint with the Master' abode they were open to try other options to explore for their problems. To me they approach Him to receive His grace then a workable solution or a valid advice.

Therefore we may discuss what happened of the problem post his/her meeting with the Master. Did the situation improve.

I know that this forum appreciates more of logics than beliefs but that way the post can not be addressed appropriately as the person/s visiting Master/s with their world problems could be with entirely different motives beyond logics defined by this world and therefore they expected results by itself on their own than answers or solutions finally.

As a matter of fact even a sane mind would advise on the protection of girl child at the outset from her abnormal father to restrict any further humiliation and assault if any and then engage with her husband personally or through legal means. Was it not a thing He could have advised.

I find a lot of pretence in His words and actions of late which He seems to put forth deliberately. Wish that we may enquire or discuss or even investigate on either sides - as opponent investigator as also as believer - to be fair and square with Him as also for us for He is not among us ( on this blog) responding to the fireworks upon Him.

Regards.

@Jesse,

Well, that's a good point. I don't know why the boys and their families were kicked out. Just that it was sexual misconduct in some form.

I wonder how many affairs Gurinder had before he became guru. Apparently, when he was appointed he wanted to let people know what he had done in his past--I guess at that point he was still un-jaded enough to want to come clean before the sangat started treating him like GIHF. However, the RSSB administration wouldn't let him. They didn't think it would be good for RSSB. Maybe that's why he never wanted his picture taken... Although with technology being what it is today and with the whole Religare thing he's becaome a well known figure in the Indian press. Still, I don't think the Indian press features much in Spain.

And with regards to the young girls that he was flirting with at Haynes Park in 2013 according to this post, I remember that was the year that a sevadar working at Haynes Park found all these pictures of beautiful young Indian girls and young women on his cell phone. I've mentioned this before in another comment. The sevadar at Dera asked him about it and he got quite cross with her. Every young pretty girl that flirts with him and interacts with him is just another feather in his cap. It's a story as old as time itself. I used to think there was no way he could have an affair as a guru because he has so many people around him all the time but now I'm beginning to think anything is possible and very likely.

Dungeness, it was Sawan Singh who told the police officer that in his court there is only mercy, not judgement.

Just clarifying.

Sonya,I actually am sure that Gurinder never have (had) affairs..it is more a playing..in his guru role.
He is like playing and just saying things..sort of ignorance Ithink.
Once after evening satsang he was joking all the time..
Afterwards a serious'' older on the path satsangi'' said:'He was popy jopy this evening..

This is how he behaves..There is much laughs also in Pandal with q&a..
He can be very sweet too really..
And he seems to not take the ''teachings''so serious''in a way.''.new satmat''

I felt it firstly even freeing how he behaved after years of being so serious with the path.
The problem also is that there are these contradictions with satsang sewadar's.
They mostly are old fashon fearmongering and also put Baba on the pedestal.

@ One Inititated - how dare you refer to us as insects!

I thought people who mediated looked upon all souls whether good or bad as Gods creation.

Peace out

I find this to be an almost unbearably sad situation, for everyone concerned. For the mother, the people in the sangat who must of heard this "question", Gurinder, the people on this blog commenting, those just observing....even the father. And most of all presumably the child who still remains under threat of continued abuse?

I am not at all surprised at Gurinder's response to the mother. I have mentioned on numerous occasions over the years how Gurinder often gives what appeared to me to be extremely bad advice & had what appeared to be unsatisfactory interactions with many people in deeply emotional states of mind, or related to serious family or mental health matters. He simply did not seem to be very skillful or insightful when it came to that aspect, and I thought that at a time when I was completely besotted with him and the RS theology. I would say, though, whilst I felt Gurinder gave bad, potentially harmful advice on several occasions, I never got the impression his intention was anything other than to try & help. It's just he's not a particularly wise human being when it comes to such things. It is certainly & absolutely laughable & absurd to say he is as wise as the ridiculous concepts of RS define the RS "satguru".......but then what "guru" ever has been?

What is very surprising....and for me deeply horrifying, sad & indicative of the dangers & absurdity of a faith based religion like RSSB........is that a mother felt the need to raise this issue in a public satsang with over a thousand attendees from her local region (UK is all local!). I feel more public privacy should be afforded to the child (and perhaps more private & immediate action taken to prevent this from ever happening again).

And this is the staggering absurdity of a religion like Radhasoami Satsang Beas. We actually get a two-for-one-of-idiocy here.

First of all, RSSB is a religion with the concept of a personal, living Master who guides us through life. When will people wake up to the reality that this is a religion with over 2 million followers (probably much more) and that nobody is getting any more "personal guidance" from the "Perfect Living Master" than Christians are from Jesus, Buddhists from Buddha or Hindus from Krishna etc? This is just a factual observation, for the vast majority of RSSB satsangis, not a matter of belief or concept. You can spin it that he gives his "guidance" through "spiritual vibes through the ether" or some such.....but then which spiritual figure or god in any religion doesn't? Gurinder does not know your name, folks, he aint guiding you through shit.....even if he does know your name, just ask his wife!! And even when they do given you personal advice - like Charan did in a letter to a homosexual man, which was printed in an official RSSB publication too, that advice can be deeply ignorant, dangerous, cultural-specific, stupid, idiotic etc etc

It is horrendous that the dissonance between the RSSB story/concepts in the books of a magical, personal relationship with an all-knowing, all-wise, all-compassionate Godman, and the actual reality of a worldly religion where the family lineage of "Saints" doesn't even know your name, can cause a mother of a child feel forced to raise such a serious, private issue in a public forum, just to get a chance to talk to her "personal guide" to get magical advice from the wisest & most powerful being in the multi-verse which would of course resolve all her problems immediately (in her mind).

These are the kind of bad, sad & dangerous situations absurd and ridiculous belief systems can lead one into.

Which kind of leads into the second slice of absurdity.......the entire belief system of RS (all lineages) itself.

I mean really, what is going on here? What precisely is the basis of ANYONE'S belief in the bizarre and ridiculous claims & cosmology of Radhasoami Mat?

Somebody felt some ecstasy in a Satguru's presence? What? First of all, it is sad to associate ecstasy with such narrow parameters, but I fear that is a comment beyond the mental scope of many readers here......so I will narrow my parameters too; what guru in what tradition HASN'T had followers feel "ecstasy", "hear inner sound", "see light", "visions" etc etc in their presence?

Does this prove something about a) each and every guru, however much of a fraud they have been proven to be, b) the teachings, concepts and cosmology of each of their paths/religions, however contradictory they may be or c) the almost infinite potential of each and every human mind, follower, believer etc?

Please pause and think :)

But wait, what.....is that 777 I hear with his tales of "serendipities" or synchronicity? Surely these are "proof" of our beliefs of the magic and power of RSSB [please replace RSSB with whatever religion, cult, guru, UFO abduction, haunting etc scenario you find yourself in whilst experiencing mind-blowing synchronicities)?

Errr, well, no......I ask again....WHICH guru, cult, religion does NOT have followers who experience mind-blowing synchronicities as confirmation of the "truth" of their respective guru/path/cult/religion??

Then perhaps read this book: https://www.amazon.co.uk/Synchronicity-Coincidence-Change-Unlocking-Your/dp/1601631839/

So I ask again, are these synchronicities revealing something to us about a) the reality or truth about a particular guru, b) the truth about a particular path or religion, or c) the reality or truth about our very OWN MINDS?

I find all these recent discussions sad, funny, absurd, heart-breaking and a lot more.

Time to take these bozo gurus off their pedestals and stop projecting our own inner being, power, ecstasy, wisdom etc upon them and letting them take undue credit. Because where undue credit is given, bankruptcy is sure to follow. Gurinder is finding this out now, like any and all humans would have to do

I see people defending Gurinder here, proof this and court case that, allegation this & evidence that etc. Sure, sure, yeah, yeah. He hasn't been proven to be a criminal on a Bernie Madoff scale, just yet anyway. Let the court case begin before we can decide that, for sure. And besides, who cares about that? There's no end of criminals, and those falsely accused. Whatever will be will be.

But isn't that missing the point, folks? Because what we DO have is evidence that there is absolutely no chance that Gurinder is what the RS theology, literature and satsangs claim the "Satguru" to be. Absolutely no chance whatsoever. He may, possibly, be not guilty of criminality (admittedly, even that is highly unlikely......he would have to be such a clueless dope to not have known what his wife et al were up to, right? Bit of a joke to say he wasn't directly involved in fraudulent activities if you ask me, but hey ho let the courts decide!).

As far as I can tell, and correct me if I'm wrong, but an extra-ordinary claim has been made (Perfect Living Master, Satguru, GIHF etc), and despite all known factors of reality itself suggesting this family business, errm I mean family religion, woops sorry I meant the only true spiritual path & guru in the entire multi-verse -does not fulfil ANY of the claims or criteria made about a "Pooran Sant Satguru", we continue to believe they are based on:

1) The books say they are
2) I follow this religion/guru, so it must be true
3) His uncle chose him, and the books say his uncle was a true Pooran Sant Satguru so it must be true
4) His uncle was a Pooran Sant Satguru because the books say he was, despite his own words repeatedly denying it. Ahh, humility!
5) The RS narrative is so appealing. And if it appeals to my intellect, it must be true. Ahh, look how smart I am to a) find the right path, b) realise it is the right path and c) find the right guru out of all the endless litany of "Satgurus" of that path. Aren't I smart/lucky!!
6) I felt ecstasy/heard shabd/had a vision in this guru's presence, so it must be true. If you felt ecstasy/heard shabd/had a vision in your guru's (for eg. Kirpal) presence......I'm just going to ignore that as I have absolutely no conceptual way to explain that away coherently.
7) I have had numerous sychronicities that are beyond any logical explanation which prove to me the power of this path and guru. I have no interest in hearing the almost infinite list of synchronicities in other religions, gurus or even completely different contexts entirely, which suggest they are more reflective of our own beliefs and the power of our mind and how it is connected to reality "out there", as I have absolutely no conceptual way to explain that away coherently and it completely undermines my own usage of these synchronicities as some sort of "proof" about my own guru/path/beliefs

Have I missed something out? Is there any other reason to believe the now bankrupt billionaire baba who has not once in his entire life demonstrated any personal experience or competency beyond his familial inheritance with mystical knowledge, practice, experience, wisdom or insight etc, other than the generic, cliched and trite neo-advaitic jingoism he often engages in as mentioned often by Osho here, actually what the grandiose claims of RS, repeated ad infinitum in books & satsangs, say he is?

Anything at all? Or are we just basing it on Catholic "Pope" logic?

Religions......what a waste of time!

Manjit (real name, have never used another username here!)

Yeah Spence,

It is not a secret anymore that those who receive the inner fragrance - always feel the stink here.

I would like to listen and smile on all the lies when I know the truth, because all the lies still contains HIS name & Name.

here we have some very deeply and badly stinking comments, which clearly projects how badly stinking the commenters' minds are. I wish for their spiritual well being.

Hi Mediator
The criticism of Gurinder functionally serves the purpose of keeping the rest of us focused on right behavior, and our responsibility to keep moving forward with no one else to blame.

Blaming Baba Ji and rejecting him as the Master automatically puts the responsibility on us. Once you do that, everything is on your own shoulders. This is where Brian is the perfect sevedar and in 100% allignment and service to Baba Ji.

Rejecting Baba Ji (while somehow being unable to focus on anyone else) is actually taking personal responsibility. And it's a form of continuous meditation on Him.

Those who proclaim criticism is unjust and he is perfect are actually making that claim for themselves. And very likely their meditation suffers from such ego. Hence no movement. This is the culture of those close to Him that have created the mischief. And to be fair, he had a hand in hatcheting the boat Himself, which is now taking in water.

His house arrest days will be entirely justified, but it is their disruptive effect on the self - satisfied that, I think, He is after. And that represents so many.

You are very close to the dynamics of what is going on it seems to me.

I think your focus on the functional, behavioral effects and the broader context is closer to the truth. But it can't be stated as an excuse for anyone, even Baba Ji, otherwise it becomes an excuse for the Sangat and a justification for our own misbehavior.

So, if you can look at the actual dynamics and forget the script you will see how the real Satsangis, filled with a desire for truth, and working to take responsibly for their actions, working through our human psychology, are right here, and Brian, in Maharaji's palm, is one of His greatest Sevedars.

Everyone here, especially Baba Ji's fiercest, most caustic, obscene and prolific critics, constantly focused on distinguishing right from wrong, with Baba Ji always as the negative example in the center of their focus, are marked and moving inexorably closer.

It's a funky kind of meditation, but Baba Ji remains at the center.

Hence my claim that from the perspective of Sach Khand, Brian is the Lord's Bulldozer.

There is no one on earth with more lazer focus on dragging us all through our own bullshit into truth than Briananda, to borrow from Mike England.

Call it reverse psychology, call it behavior modification, but the effect is the same... With a complete focus on Baba Ji, we all move closer to the truth.

Let me put this another way, Meditator,
If every day all that you saw on Church of the Churchless were fierce, forceful and scathing attacks upon Baba Ji that never ended and were simply awful to read, and were endless, day after day, year after year, completely one sided, but endless, then you would be witness to meditation, and the burning of substantial Sinchit. These would be the loading upon Him of all our burdens, the projecting upon Him of all our own issues.

"We do not see the world as it is. We see it as we are."
Anais Nin

Apologies for the extra comment - there was one thing I wanted to mention, but forgot.

There is, in my mind, absolutely no way to condone what Gurinder has allegedly said (and I believe it, sounds just like him and a lot of context/detail provided that could easily be refuted if untrue imo). His "infallible" "advice" to this mother is, imo, unwise, dangerous, ridiculous and more than a little abhorrent. Completely indefensible.

That said, I think Gurinder is giving what he personally considers to be the best advice. It's just that he's completely unqualified and completely clueless when it comes to this issue, apparently.

This is the thing, we are all culture and society restricted/bound/defined beings/animals, and we are simply unable to escape it. A danger lies in pretending somebody has, such as a "Pooran Sant Satguru", and then imagining all their advice comes from a place of absolute and inviolable authority and righteousness.

It seems quite clear here, to me, that in this anecdote above that Gurinder is more under the influence of the pressures of rapidly out-dating cultural and societal appearances, than the pressures of being a loving, compassionate, sensitive and thought-full human being, regardless of the pressures of current social & cultural appearances & "customs" (though I shudder at the mere thought ignoring & covering up sexual abuse of children is a "custom" anywhere). The same goes with Charan's ignorant, erroneous, dangerous & abhorrent comments about homosexuality. These are not the words of Gods, but the words of men cowering behind outdated, stupid & dangerous cultural pressures.

But how many amongst us do push back against unjust, uncompassionate & unwise cultural & societal pressures & customs, especially when it could do us personal harm or damage in some way?

Just the other day, I went into a Kentucky Fried Chicken and brought 2 chicken legs. I haven't been in a McD or KFC etc in more than a decade, but this time I did. It was for my father who was bed-ridden, very ill & not eating....he specifically asked for KFC, so I got it for him. I am therefore complicit in the unimaginable torture and suffering in hellish conditions of countless living conscious beings merely for the appetite of selfish &/or thoughtless human beings. But hey ho, there's a KFC and McD every 100ft, nobody blinks an eye when thousands of chicken legs are sold out of just one of these thousands of outlets every day. What difference does it make if I get a couple too?

Not only am I not launching a full scale war against these manufacturers of death and suffering, I am actually going into their store and buying some animal limbs?! I feel like I am the odd person for not eating meat, not wanting to purchase anything at all from these companies who slaughter conscious living beings by the billion. I feel I should not be so judgemental towards these companies and the people who frequent them, who eat meat etc. We are all animals, after all!

Such is the pressures of society and culture. And we are all susceptible to it. Unless, perhaps, we live on top of a mountain in the himalayas somewhere?

Manjit,thanks for your posts..
I liked reading them.
I realise that I am still in the digesting state because of lieving my adored path..
Strange that it really takes time to overcome..
I have had a beautiful time in Santmat...
Learned a lot also..
Maharaji was a Father figure...
One could easely adore him.
But I felt sometimes sad about lots of things also that I could not understand at all.

"First of all, it is sad to associate ecstasy with such narrow parameters, but I fear that is a comment beyond the mental scope of many readers here...."

My god you are insufferable. It's not anyone's lack of "mental scope" but rather your weird and vague mahabharat length comment that is the problem. When writing unending screeds of the void you have the privilege to name the more expansive "parameters" of ecstasy or wtf nonsense you're talking about, you goofy clown. Don't leave us in the dark. Name those "parameters" of ecstasy, genius.

You wrote 1600+ words in one blog comment, Manjit. 99% of them unoriginal trash that gets repeated here more clearly by someone else every single day. 1% self-worship. 1600 words, man. PLUS 3 ADDITIONAL COMMENTS.

It's nobody's fault but your own if you can't articulate what you really want to say about ecstasy parameters. Obviously you write pages upon pages because it makes you feel smart, but it doesn't make you look that way. The mirror lies. You're probably paneer-fat, too, though I assume you think you're muscular and wear tight fitting shirts.

Here is one 3 minute video featuring 2 martial artists that says more than you or anyone will ever say in their entire life no matter how lengthy their blog comments are. This short youtube video is all anyone needs to know about religion or mysticism. The only parameters that matter.

tldr everyone watch this video and leave your magic wizardly ways behind you

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gEDaCIDvj6I

Hi One
You wrote
"here we have some very deeply and badly stinking comments, which clearly projects how badly stinking the commenters' minds are. I wish for their spiritual well being."

One. They are completely focused on Gurinder.

You are not. You are focused on them.

Step back please and and refocus on your goal.
And realize the lesson you can learn from your brothers and sisters.


So that's everything in our capacity, to hate, to love, to honor, to criticize, all of it, either our good side or our bad side, or his good side or his bad side, but every day, our attention, on Him 24/7 whether we like it or not. Whether respectful or not.

Amen. But, some gentle correctives to those who overreach in their
bulldozing, who thunder fire and brimstone from their pulpit without
respite in damnation of others, who hypocritically claim allegiance
to facts and fairness while trampling on due process can be a good
thing too.

Then we can joyously tear down edifices and artifices together, drink
deeply from the cup of righteousness, raise our voices in His praise, and,
yes, rejoice in doin' God's work.

Hi s*,

I appreciate you sharing that response. That’s what I would like to believe but all of his regular overt flirting with girls makes one question. If my husband behaved that way he’d never give another Satsang. Lol 😂

In my heart of hearts I believe Gurinder is taking the long way home and dragging a lot of souls down that treacherous path with him.

Non of my personal interactions hold much weight compared to the complete and total opposition I have towards his teachings and dogma. I know full well the power of his persuasion. I also fully acknowledge his uncanny ability to read people. The problem is he doesn’t know himself.

Hi folks - what an interesting, meaty and informative exchange of views. Thanks Brian.

Manjit - always good to read your posts. Can’t agree with you more about religions - just hung out with some folk who are absolutely sure the Ark is on Mt Ararat, all the world’s oceans were created within the last 6000 years and the end times are upon us! (kind of agree with the last point, but not for the reasons they hold). Catholic “Pope” logic is probably a good description of the world view held by many religious followers imo. You write:
“Somebody felt some ecstasy in a Satguru's presence? What? First of all, it is sad to associate ecstasy with such narrow parameters, but I fear that is a comment beyond the mental scope of many readers here......so I will narrow my parameters too; what guru in what tradition HASN'T had followers feel "ecstasy", "hear inner sound", "see light", "visions" etc etc in their presence?

Comes across as a bit condescending but I think I know what you are on about - There’s a difference between having a ‘self’ experience visions of light, hearing sound, seeing forms and a ‘self’ expanding and becoming ‘Self’ in a non-dual, no separation experience. That’s my view.

Jesse if you have not read it, there’s a good example of such in Harris’ book ‘Waking Up’ see page 81. I had a very similar experience, also in the desert. I appreciate your humour, and fair comment about the length of Manjit’s posts, however I think some of your words in response to Manjit are a bit too barbed.
Great video, I would sum it as “ A flying foot to the chin = that which doesn’t change when you stop believing in it”.

Spencer, although you have your own ‘subjective experience’ of the inner working’s of Sant Mat etc, I really can’t get your view that Brian is ‘Maharaji’s bulldozer’. Perhaps you could relabel him ‘As a (not the) KeyMaster in the unfolding of consciousness’ :-). Also he keeps stating that he has ditched Sant Mat/RSSB - maybe it’s time for some comment from him.
‘Step back please and and refocus on your goal.
And realize the lesson you can learn from your brothers and sisters.’ - Words from the pulpit?


Hi Tim
You wrote
"Spencer, although you have your own ‘subjective experience’ of the inner working’s of Sant Mat etc, I really can’t get your view that Brian is ‘Maharaji’s bulldozer’. Perhaps you could relabel him ‘As a (not the) KeyMaster in the unfolding of consciousness’ :-). Also he keeps stating that he has ditched Sant Mat/RSSB - maybe it’s time for some comment from him.
‘Step back please and and refocus on your goal.
And realize the lesson you can learn from your brothers and sisters.’ - Words from the pulpit?"


Context is everything, and as my nephew often says '" comparisons are odious ".

If we are constantly rejecting Baba Ji, pointing out his faults, etc year after year, and these are legitimate fact based comments, even when they are hard to read, hard to accept, hard to digest, yet we find ourselves agreeing with the objective facts of the matter, then the person who is providing this service is a divine bulldozer dragging us step by step into the inconvenient truth.

We are flawed human beings. The divine scales of creation don't balance, Tim, at the nice comfortable fulcrum of our choosing. They balance exactly where they have always been. Nothing appears fair, from our perspective at all. Yet it is in a perfect balance, at least in concept, physically. It cannot be any other way.

The individual who brings those of us spiritually minded, focused on love and bliss and notions of perfection, to this place of objective perfection, which is reality, does some heavy dragging. If there is a God who owns this creation, who made it, (or made the one who made it) they must love Brian very much. He's doing their work. And he does it perfectly, as far as I can see.

Atheism, in its pure form, is spirituality. Because if spirit does exist it must be a subtle form of matter or energy, some part of this creation and therefore measurable, detectable. It can't be a human invented concept of God. But that may take time to see.

Maharaji said "God, Kal and the Lords of the regions are powers, not personalities" yet it is natural for human beings to anthropomorphize their experience of these things, and it is an appropriate stage, because it utilizes the way the brain has been conditioned to filter, codify and report to higher functioning brain what is being experienced. Until we can merge with those forces we have internal experiences, visions, vague or clear experiences. Some defy explanation. And those anthropomorphic explanations help us find and experience the actual powers within... They are a necessary v stage, as is giving them up at the appropriate time. They don't really fit into nice Freudian or even Neuroscience categories. This is, as Alan Arkin wrote, a Zen that his Zen Master described in one word, 'Astonishment'.

We are obligated by our love of objective truth not to conclude one way or the other what we don't know. We must accept the astonishing as simply astonishment. And nurture and enjoy that truth, even as it costs the conceptual truths that helped us get here.

And this is Brian's core teaching.

Your frustration is going beyond control. You got such a wonderful lifetime chance to throw more mud at him after the news of financial dispute between him and Singh bros. Now you are trying to go extra mile to en-cash the situation by levelling other absurd accusation on him based on hearsay stories.

You want some extra stuff ? I could do that by sending you random stories about him and you would feel proud publishing them. Such a gullible you have become.. LOL.

Last time when I confronted him, you ran away deleting your entire post. I am certain you would find it hard to remember it. :)

Keep doing mud slugging. It is your best time to do so after wasting so many years of life here on this blog. All the Best.

Sharma.

Sharma, what makes you think I'm frustrated? I'm enjoying life, including writing posts on my three blogs. I spend very little time thinking about the RSSB guru, thankfully. When there's a story about him in the Indian financial press I share it. If someone emails me a credible story about Gurinder Singh, I also share that.

Otherwise, I spend my worrying time focused on what Donald Trump is doing to our country, and the world.

We're all engaged in speaking our truth in different ways. I feel good about my way. Hopefully you feel good about your way.

Maybe you feel I'm wasting my life on writing blog posts, but I LOVE what I'm doing. Each to his own. Good to hear from you. It's a pleasure to know that you're reading my posts, even if you don't agree with all of them. Or, any of them.

I think you all are psychologically sick people. Will you give the viewers proof of this incident of father daughter case. I think if one jumps in a well all the idiots follow the same footsteps without thinking. That's the case with you all idiots.Without going deep into the matter how can we jump into decisions? And the author himself is a great critic of Babaji who is allowing only those posts which he think is favourable to his subject. Don't show your jealousy towards gurus. U are nowhere and in no position. So please shut your bloody tongue and mind your own business. And dear author, whosoever you are, atleast you are not a judge who is sitting with his disgusting head up to give foolish comments and decisions. You better go to a psycho to get yourself treated for your mental illness. Your bullshit comments hardly makes any difference to the world.
Regards
xxx

Dear All,
Having been referred to this blog by several disgruntled enquirers, i have been asked by them to provide an enlightened view of the very human perspective of a Satguru and Sant Mat presented here. But before i begin, i must qualify myself to the readers of this blog about my authority to speak on such matters. I have been a dedicated Sant Mat practitioner for over 25 years now and have received abundant grace from the Supreme Lord, manifested as a living Holy Master. Incidentally, there is more than one living Perfect Master, manifested from Sat Lok, here on Earth today - each with Their own style of presentation, in accordance to the peoples/culture They are appealing to. So, what i am about to say applies to all of Them, though expressed differently through each of Their personages. And, in the interest of balance, I hope this comment is permitted to be published, else this blog is nothing more than a place of rant for the unrealised egotists.
As a realised soul, I have the unique privilege of knowing first-hand the truth about God, Life & Creation. Therefore, i can speak with the authority that comes with this direct experience.
So Who is the Satguru really? What is His/Her purpose here? And in what manner of form do they exist here? These are the topics i shall briefly answer.
The Satguru is a fully realised soul Who, although having no karma of Their own, has taken on (borrowed) a karmic body & character of one who is potentially most suitably placed to promote Their cause (of human salvation), by releasing that one from their karmic burden and 'sending' them back to Satlok, prior to their prospective physical birth here on Earth, in order to function as a human being in lower karmic creation (our world), where no other form can function appropriately. This means that a Satguru will have the physical qualities and karma of that released individual, whether it be poverty or wealth, illness or good health, householder or renunciate, or other fates, etc. Therefore, a Satguru is born like us, is raised like us, has to face pleasure and pain like us, has a human personality like us, and looks like one of us. Indeed, They are human in every way, outwardly. The difference is in Their level of realisation, for They know the whole truth behind the scenes, and so play along with the unfolding and evolving illusion of creation, that we too experience, with all its so-called goodness and badness, heavens and hells, etc.
Thus, apart from Their primary purpose here on Earth, which is solely for the salvation of 'ready' souls - irrespective of the assumed identities and associated role-play characters accompanying those souls in this Earthly plane - They do take part in mainstream society, in accordance with the karma of the form They have borrowed in order to exist here. However, although They generally do not interfere in the karmic lives of human individuals, They can help reduce the karmic burden of the individual who sincerely appeals to Them, without seeking recognition or praise for this. Instead They often take on abuse upon themselves (such as is expounded by this blog) simply to pay back the karma of the individuals They are helping, on their behalf. Thus, although the advise a Satguru gives may not accord with current human thought, there is far more going on behind the scenes, which onlookers have no idea about, that actually helps enquiring those individual karmically, without their knowing at the time. Hence, that individual seeking help may feel dissatisfied, initially, but eventually they will witness the dramatic changes for the better in their life surrounding that appeal for help. Furthermore, as a Satguru is not here to solve our worldly problems, and does not want to encourage this, Their advice is often given from a higher point of view rather than a lower satisfying human perspective, for They know the karma to be faced by the individuals concerned and don't wish those individuals to incur more negative karma by seeking revenge, judgement or anger, etc., which ultimately serve no good to the souls of those concerned, but instead harmfully pampers to the ego characters of their assumed identities, resulting in more problems for them. Karma is mere retribution, and nothing can happen/function in this material plane without it. Thus, one should seek to get out this endless trap rather than indulging themselves in it further. Indeed, these latter points must be thoroughly understood before an onlooker jumps to a conclusion about anything that a Sant Satguru says or does.
The truth is that each and everyone one of us is here for a karmic experience (entailing good & bad accounts) - an adventure in the lower realms of creation, whereupon we freely assume a character in the play of life, and thus undergo our own dramas, according the the character Mind & body) we have assumed - though our soul itself is fearless in this, as it can never be harmed in any way. This is why we are responsible for what we do here, or experience (destiny), which is merely role-play (illusion) anyway, including whether we wish to enjoy a spell in heaven or in hell even. Furthermore, the scholars, intellects and thinkers of this world can never fathom the entire truth of existence by using this means (mere thought), even if all mankind joins in that effort. Only through higher awakening, into planes of existence not available to the physical form, can one know the higher truth of it all! And that is what a Satguru essentially comes to teach us.
Ok, i shall cease now and hope that this reply has answered the many concerned queries and opinions expressed here, and so will bring peace back to their hearts, and allow them to maximise their enjoyment of karmic life, during their brief stay here on Earth. Of course, i have only touched upon the surface of the truth of it all, but that is sufficient for now. I do reveal a great deal more at the monthly satsangs i give to those who really want to know the truth of it all - beyond what the current limited books explain, or what is generally explained by unenlightened speakers and followers.
May God bless you all.

P.S.
Regarding the specific allegations against the current Sant Satguru of the RSSB form of Sant Mat, i will comment briefly. Baba Ji has never been personally involved in any financial fraud or sexual misconduct. To say such a thing, merely because it happens around Him, is serious untruth, and is grossly unkind to someone who is only here to help us. His personal financial accounts are published yearly and proves that He does not mix His personal income with that of sangat donations, nor does He involve Himself with the financial dealings of His inherited karmic family. Furthermore, no-one, anywhere in the world, has ever come forward to claim sexual abuse by Baba Ji, and so there is no foundation to this allegation, other than in the negative hearts of those who seek it to be true. In fact, in all questions & answers, Baba Ji always addresses the questioners as either son or daughter, or bother or sister, and is always surrounded by serving sevadars day and night. He has also secretly helped many people around the world who sincerely appeal to Him with love and devotion.
I hope this clarifies the matter for those interested in the actual truth rather than mere speculation?
God bless you all!

P.P.S
On a final point, please forgive me if i have said any wrong, or have offended anyone by posting the truth, for i only seek to provide clarity on the matters raised. Anyone is most welcome to ask any reasonable question regarding anything i have said and i will try to answer their queries in simple terms to the best of my ability. I am currently compiling an extensive series of books about high spirituality that will hopefully start to be published at the end of this year. It consists of 9 volumes - from essential concepts to advanced knowledge - written in plain language for the modern Age. These volumes are designed to reveal far more about the truth of God, Life & Creation than has ever been recorded in human history, thus far - as the overall intellect and comprehension of humanity in the 21st century is that much greater than it has been in the past, and so, demands greater attention to detail. Furthermore, the content is the direct result of inner/higher revelations of a realised soul, backed by science and enlightened others, who wishes to remain anonymous for now in order not be be worshipped or glorified in any way, and so seeks no recognition or praise for this work, which has been instructed directly by the Supreme Lord for the modern Age. The information revealed greatly expands upon what has already been said about the Path to God-realisation thru time, answering every key question about spirituality that philosophers, scientists, and spiritual practitioners have been asking/seeking for centuries now...
May God bless you all!

Verify your Comment

Previewing your Comment

This is only a preview. Your comment has not yet been posted.

Working...
Your comment could not be posted. Error type:
Your comment has been saved. Comments are moderated and will not appear until approved by the author. Post another comment

The letters and numbers you entered did not match the image. Please try again.

As a final step before posting your comment, enter the letters and numbers you see in the image below. This prevents automated programs from posting comments.

Having trouble reading this image? View an alternate.

Working...

Post a comment

Comments are moderated, and will not appear until the author has approved them.

Your Information

(Name is required. Email address will not be displayed with the comment.)

Welcome


  • Welcome to the Church of the Churchless. If this is your first visit, click on "About this site--start here" in the Categories section below.
  • HinesSight
    Visit my other weblog, HinesSight, for a broader view of what's happening in the world of your Church unpastor, his wife, and dog.
  • BrianHines.com
    Take a look at my web site, which contains information about a subject of great interest to me: me.
  • Twitter with me
    Join Twitter and follow my tweets about whatever.
  • I Hate Church of the Churchless
    Can't stand this blog? Believe the guy behind it is an idiot? Rant away on our anti-site.