Where there's RSSB financial fraud smoke, there's fire underneath

When someone leaves a thoughtful, lengthy, well-researched comment on this blog, I'm motivated to share it in a blog post so more people see it.

In this case, I also found the commenter's assumed name to be wonderfully creative: Radh(er Not) Soami -- a play on words, since Radha Soami is both a greeting used by members of Radha Soami Satsang Beas and shorthand for the group's philosophy.

Hence, "rather not" becomes Radh(er Not).

Here's this person's comment. I added some explanatory links, a few photos, and corrected some typos. "Shivi" stands for Shivinder Singh. "Malav" stands for Malvinder Singh. And I'm assuming Gurinder Singh Dhillon (GSD) is the other member of the "top Three."

These type of fraud activities on grand scale go too much in India. Nirav Modi case is another one that some of you folks may have heard about.

Nirav Modi

Somehow the business and cultural environment is such that these activities do not trigger legal alerts, let alone moral and ethical qualms, in anyone... so these folks seem emboldedened to think it as the cost of doing business (or shall I say make even more yuuge amounts of money).

It's not like it does not happen in US either; it is just that the regulatory noose is little tighter in US.

I doubt anyone in the upper echelons of the Dhillon-Singh empire [did] not know what was going on or how the money was being siphoned or how the loans were being payed off just on paper; it was just a normal practice when it was being done in real time.

Until these activities added up and the market downturn squashed the speculative bets to such an extent, with Daiichi-Sankyo playing the violin band on "Nearer, My God, to Thee", that everyone saw the Titanic sinking and no one knew what to do to get out.

It's unfathomable that whoever was writing in those checks and carrying out those transactions didn't alert others about the dark clouds hovering over the near-horizon and that info didn't vaporize all the way to the top Three.

Personally, from the fact that Shivi's announcement on Sep 23rd 2015 to go to dera - to become a "Sadhu" - was closely matched with first murmurs of problems cropping underneath their empire (check the press reports around that time), I think his going to dera may have been as much tied with how to sort this mess out as much as his inner calling.

Perhaps this sorting the mess out is tied to the potential succession plans (whether as part of or apart from the so-called Family Settlement). I don't think Malav is an innocent party either, even if he has gotten full throttle against GSD today (likely not out of honesty but as part of ploy to extract something out of this mess).

He likely (allegedly) fully knew what was going on and the reasons for Shivi's renunciation and pilgrimage to dera. But after s*** quickly hit the fan from there on, he decided to go a different route to reduce his culpability.

If Sunil Godhwani could intertwine Dhillon/Singh finances (something that Singh brothers should have known having created plethora of entities and the reasons to do so), then imagine what could happen if Shivi ended up on RSSB trust or as the head. Perhaps they saw a way to get out of trouble, particularly if the mess took a deadly turn.

Of course, this is conjecture on my part but where there is a smoke, there must be a fire underneath. Something was fishy all along and all this sudden renunciation, leaving the company in capable hands of Malav and Sunny, is just too naive to believe in.

For all those here who are on the fence and so much on the defense, just beginning of this year, I too was defending all these actions (and few others relevant to my life) that somehow this is all divine plan and so on despite my objectivity that seriously questioned it since the Bloomberg story.

So I thought of this way: what if all this was happening to someone else's guru?... say if Kirpal existed today, who otherwise posed as a decent guru, or perhaps Rajinder from his lineage today. Would the same thoughts and defense arguments originate in you, or would you be quick to point out (and likely gloat) that "we told you so... that it is a fake lineage"?

Would you not say "even if this was all legal, why is their guru amassing god-awful amounts of money while preaching Guru Nanak's message: the accumulation of wealth is not possible without sins; nor does it accompany the accumulator after death (Paapan baaj hoi nahi...)."

Would you not say that he should be instructing and hammering all his kins and near ones (particularly the dera elites) to adopt a simple honest living and focus on meditation than putting all the kins and close circle friends to the top positions of the empire?

That doesn't sound like someone acting as mentor to this duo but rather appears to be actively involved in all aspects when the top echelons of dera were recruited to run this empire. Perhaps you should listen to this satsang starting at 6:25 : "... what principles don't we sacrifice to amass this wealth..." indeed! But oh sweat Lord, what an irony!  

[It's in hindi but some of you seem to know it].

Ram Rahim

If you look at some of the comments posted by Ram Rahim followers even today on various forums/apps, you will see the real denial in action despite such clear evidence of his wrong-doing and doing time. It seems for some folks facts and evidences just don't matter.

Or is it just like the classical loss psychology in investments? I still sometimes think that this is all just a Cosmic play and my RS stock will bounce back with full dividends. But I guess this is mind adjusting to the new reality, particularly when you were invested and thought yourself lucky to get a ticket back to Home.

Oh the five stages of grief!

I am the same way with my stocks, I just can't get rid of them when they lose, particulary when you like the company's product but not its management or its policy or its CEO. Tesla anyone? Looks like I need to diversify my spiritual stocks like Brian is doing these days. Any good spiritual mutual fund or ETF, people?

Comments

[jay]

But Ram Rahim was convicted in an Indian court of law of 2 counts of rape. And also convicted of the murder of journalist Ram Chander Chhatrapati. Gurinder Singh has yet to even be charged with a crime.

As for comparisons to the Kirpal line of gurus, there is yours truly who brought up the curious fact that Rajinder Singh lives in a 2 million dollar home in one of Chicago's swankest suburbs, put 2 of his children through medical school, drives a Porsche, and yet doesn't appear to have had a paying job since 1990. I recently brought this curiosity to that other RS study forum and was summarily kicked out of it by their moderator. Not surprising, since all deeply religious folk have a zero tolerance for criticism of their cherished idols (that may sound like a brash overstatement, but having dealt with such people in a wide variety of religions I don't think it is).

I even see it on this forum, with a vigorous impulse to demand justice of Gurinder, but allow full mercy to Charan, when (to my eyes) there's hardly a bit of ethical difference between these 2 RSSB gurus.

But as far as the actual proof of the guilt of Gurinder (for financial fraud and death threats) or Rajinder (for possibly using SOS as a non profit org cash cow), I have no proof. "He must have known" isn't even close to approaching the gold standard, even the tin standard, of acceptable evidence. With Ram Rahim, we do know, because we do have evidence, and (very important) we do have the court decision in which he was the accused and the convicted. With Gurinder and Rajinder, we are still in a cloud of unknowing of the precise financial agreements made (or not).

Guilt by association or inference just doesn't work. Surprisingly it's still very much in vogue these days, with New Yorker writers assuring us the president has the same motives as Hitler, and NYT scribes selling us the questionable logic that since a previous president was burned by Watergate, then it must follow that this president must likewise be guilty of high crimes. It's good to raise questions about these gurus (or presidents), it's good to suggest that questionable circumstances need answers. But it's never good to conclude guilt of actual criminal wrongdoing unless the principals are charged and convicted by law enforcement.

[SC Jockey]

Dear All,

Let us look at some of the instances from the past when there was smoke but no fire, as the smoke was only an illusion.

1. Sawan Singh was sued in court by one of his disciples in 1933, as has been mentioned by David Lane in his article “THE CHANDIAN REVOLUTION: Demythologizing Radhasoami Beliefs”, which also details the incident as follows-

“Giani Harcharn Singh Labana, General Secretary of Vicharni Sabha was a staunch opponent of S. Sawan Singh. His complaint was that he was badly beaten in 1933 by the Radha Soamis at Dera Baba Jaimal Singh, Beas. He wanted to take revenge on S. Sawan Singh. He instigated one of S. Sawan Singh’s disciples, Naitar Singh, to file a suit against the Guru in the Judicial Court at Amritsar. In the suit he said that the Guru had promised to make him see God within his physical body at the time of initiation. Naitar Singh alleged that at the behest of the Guru, he resigned from service and had to suffer a loss of eight thousand rupees. But, the Guru had not fulfilled his promise. Therefore, either the loss of a huge amount should be recovered from the Guru, or he should show God to Naitar Singh. In this case S. Sawan Sngh appeared before the judge and made the following statement.

Undoubtedly, God is within him and the process to reach and see his him had been explained to the claimant. But according to my instructions, he did not labour hard honestly, therefore, he could not meet Him (God).

Ultimately, on June 12, 1934, the suit was dismissed and S. Sawan Singh was acquitted of the charge.”

2. Ishwar Puri mentioned in one of his discourses that people even accused Sawan Singh of living with the three ladies at the Dera, namely Bibi Lajjo, Bibi Rakhi and Bibi Ralli. Ishwar mentioned that there were even articles in the local newspaper reporting the same.

3. Charan Singh also suffered financial loses, he lost Rs 50000 in 1967 which was a big amount back then. Below is excerpt from the book Treasure Beyond Measure-

May 24th, 1967
“I have bad news to share. The financial company where I have invested about Rs.50,000/- in the names of my different family members has collapsed.
… Do not worry about me. Maharaj Ji has given me sufficient strength to pull through all that and he has also given us all sufficient to go through this life. I am just writing to warn you about the situation …”

These things from the history indicate that rumour smoke that Brian endorses need not necessarily be from fire.

Regards,
SC Jockey

[pj2000]

Brian and all the GSD hate group....Did you notice the note GSD sent to the Singh brothers? Look at it closely...what is it missing? Look at the header.....it wasn't written on RSSB paper. You guys are trying so hard to mix oil with water.....not going to happen. Brian you should have noticed this with all of the correspondence that you have had with the Dera...Maybe you did...and you ignored to mention it. Stop blowing smoke here.

GSD is not Guilty this was a family deal and I have confirmed this with family members close to the Singh brothers.

[Brian Hines]

pj2000, you're wrong. This wasn't a family deal. It was a fraudulent deal involving public companies, notably Fortis. You should educate yourself on a subject before you write clearly false comments. Bad karma to spread untruths.

Read this blog post. SEBI, the Securities and Exchange Board of India, and the India Supreme Court, wouldn't be requiring the Singh brothers to make good on the money they owe if all this was just a "family deal" as you wrongly said. Fortis is a public company.

https://hinessight.blogs.com/church_of_the_churchless/2019/03/rssb-guru-had-better-have-a-big-bank-balance.html

And here's a comment Spence Tepper left recently on this subject:
-------------------
Hi Ilanovitch You wrote "Yet it still remains an inherently family affair as to who owes who what and how much." Fortis is a publicly traded healthcare system. Therefore what happens affects not only other stock holders but patients' lives.

Diverting Fortis funds and thereby placing Fortis under threat of insolvency is not a family affair. In health systems I've worked in over three decades, this kind of financial duress affects how inpatient units and diagnostic areas are staffed, their hours of operation, even quality supervision. It's a bad thing, and if someone caused it, doubly so.

Generally, patient errors result. In a few cases my team was able to reduce patient mortality simply by adding back the charge nurse hours that were stripped away under financial pressure. Those are patients who died inadvertently from lack of proper supervision, in the surgery department, in the emergency department, and on the nursing units.

I recently witnessed this stupid behavior in an MRI department that staffed too thin under corporate pressure from executives witnessing the loss of millions every month. The result? Stroke patients in the emergency department had to wait four hours for their MRI to confirm and treat.

That is criminal. Legality be damned. You are right to imply this is a personal issue for me. The loans Gurindar family and associates took without repayment is owed back up through the shell companies to Fortis. Legally the shell companies are liable to Fortis, just as a bank is liable to shareholders for your loans should you default.

But ethically the persons who took the loans are liable. Gurinder and family have, functionally, defaulted on $800M in loans. SEBI has ordered both the Singhs and those shell companies, where Dhillon RSSB associates and family members can be found among the directors, to make repayment.

Even if they could be done today, what damage has this caused to patients? This layering of Corporate legal status has nothing to do with the responsibility of those who caused these problems by taking on promise and not repaying. It's shameful.
------------------
Do better, pj2000. It reflects poorly on you when you try so desperately to excuse actions by the RSSB guru, his family, and associates that really are inexcusable.

[1234]

Brian you are part of a hate group....you guys hate anyone or anything that is RSSB. This blog is a witch-hunt....are you part of the Muller Probe as well against Trump? All i can see is a bunch of bowl hair cut men in that room that represent you. Go Hug a Tree you libtard.

[Spence Tepper]

About $800M in loans given to Gurinder family and RSSB associates over a decade long period have been defaulted on by Baba Ji family members and associates.

The Singh brothers illegally gave these loans in violation of SEBI regulations and basic accounting laws for publicly traded companies.

The Singhs and the shell companies with Gurinder family and RSSB leadership among their directors engaged in fictitious and fraudulent activity together to cover it up. And the SEBI has ordered the Singh Brothers AND the shell companies to repay under threat of penalty.

These are facts.

You may conjecture about who the real masterminds are. You may conjecture that Baba Ji, the biggest beneficiary of this fraud over a decade, is somehow innocent, though he is factually an accomplice, having accepted these fraudulently obtained monies for years without voicing any concern. And he remains silent to this day.

These are facts that are all a matter of public record.

What is underneath them is still to be unveiled.

But to engage in character assassination along the way of those helping to bring these facts to light does not reflect well on the character of those who indulge in doing so.

In light of the overwhelming body of growing evidence, these personal, smarmy remarks are actually quaint, and powerless.

[In Search Of]

Wow, 1234, is that how high you can count? Maybe next time post something a little more compelling and thought provoking than the garbage you just spewed forth. I hope to God, if there is one, you don't represent the Conservative Right wing-tards, to use your strange analogy. Good luck to you. Get out and enjoy the sun somewhere, instead of sitting in a dark closet eating Twinkies. Lol.

[Michael]

Oh the delicious irony! Brian writes "You should educate yourself on a subject before you write clearly false comments. Bad karma to spread untruths." He should really follow his own advice to avoid looking silly when he states accusations as facts (as he's done many times in previous posts). His responses to being called out during those instances are truly hilarious!

[Brian Hines]

Michael, point out where I’ve been wrong about the facts regarding the Singh brothers /RSSB financial saga. I’ve been writing about this since 2010, I believe, so show me the facts I’ve shared you believe to be wrong. Don’t count my opinions about those facts.

[Michael]

Brian I have already pointed out several instances in previous posts where you stated an accusation as a fact and then went on to state definitive conclusions based on those accusations. I even gave you a hypothetical example about your neighbor accusing you of stealing his TV and showed you word for word how that would be framed using your logic. I recommend you go back and read those comments and perhaps you will finally see how ludicrous you have sounded.

[Brian Hines]

Michael, I remember your comments. They were based on my opinions about the facts regarding the RSSB/Singh brothers fianancial dealings. So it looks like actually I didn't make any mistakes about the facts. Win for me! Thanks for boosting my already healthy confidence in my ability to write factual blog posts.

[Michael]

Brian laughing is very good for the immune system and I must say I have been laughing a lot at some of the utter nonsense I see you post. What is funnier is the fact that you are genuinely clueless on how silly some of the things you say are. Thank you so much for the health boost you have provided me just by being yourself!

[Sonya]

@ilanovich
The one thing I really don’t understand about Sant Mat (and I’m talking Sant Mat now, not RSSB) is why does a Master or teacher need to be unkind?

Yes, I’m guilty of holding a lot of anger and attacking and I realize “attacking” isn’t going to settle anything. It’s getting to be exhausting.

So, I’m just going to ask the question, at what point in the history of this spiritual path did people say, “yeah I learn better when I’m treated badly. If you’re kind I’ll just think you’re an idiot and do whatever I like”. When? Has anyone ever questioned that or is it just too deeply ingrained in the culture for anyone to think it might be dysfunctional.

I don’t think being a Master gives you the right to do or say whatever you want Carte Blanche. You get more bees with honey.

[Brian Hines]

Michael, I’ve got to thank you in return. It made me feel really good to call you out on your false accusation that my blog posts aren’t factual, and then find out that you were just making stuff up. Better luck next time.

[Michael]

Sigh! For your benefit Brian, I will copy/paste a comment I posted before and we can let the world decide whether I am just making stuff up. Here goes:

"No matter how Brian argues this, the fact remains that he stated something that hasn't been proven yet, stated it as if it were a fact and then drew conclusions based on those "facts". Here is exactly what Brian wrote in his Feb 19th post:

"Actually, he isn't even at the level of a normally imperfect human being. It's outrageous that Gurinder Singh would sell his position as RSSB guru to Shivinder Singh in exchange for being forgiven the massive amount of money owed to companies once controlled by Shivinder and his brother Malvinder, who are Gurinder Singh's cousins.

What kind of a supposedly "spiritual" guru is willing to do this? Only a hugely greedy one.

Most ordinary people have a conscience, scruples, a line they won't cross. But Gurinder Singh has made death threats against Malvinder Singh, and offered up his position as guru for a lot of money."

Going back to the example I provided yesterday this would be the equivalent of me publishing in a blog "Most people do not break into their neighbors house to steal a TV. But Brian broke into his neighbors house and stole a TV. What kind of a person does this? Only an immoral person with no sense of right and wrong. Most people wouldn't cross that line. But not Brian. He steals property that does not belong to him."

Of course after being confronted about the fact that this is merely an accusation, then I would conveniently say well this is America and I have freedom of speech to say whatever I believe when in fact I didn't state it as my belief but rather painted it as if it were fact."

[Sonya]

Maybe way back when, the idea that a Master could be harsh or unkind... perhaps even cruel came about when people questioned some weird thing their Master said or did and then thought, oh no this guy is supposed to be perfect. And the only way they could make sense of it was to say his harshness or cruelty was what the disciple “deserved”. But I know in my dealings with all of the pets I’ve ever had and all of my nieces and step daughters and other children I’ve worked with that I see them through rose colored glasses. I always have and that’s just my nature around kids and anyone I have to take care of. And you know what, all of them turned out WONDERFULLY even despite some difficult periods in their lives. They ALWAYS knew they were loved by me and that I would do anything for them. But I’ve seen other people with children or employees who automatically assume they’re going to do something wrong or are overly critical. And you know what it usually doesn’t turn out to well—there’s a lot of tension and struggle.

If you create a negative unloving atmosphere you will get negative results. I have A LOT OF FAULTS but there are a few God given gifts I’ve received and one is to see the best in children and people under my care. My employees used to always tell me that they loved working for me. I would go out of my way for them and they did the same for me. Other people would come along and start being critical of things about these kids and people that I couldn’t even see.

If you tell a child he’s bad over and over, well guess what—he’s going to start acting badly. I don’t treat anyone under my care with disrespect and because that is such a strong principle in my life and I’ve seen the results of seeing the best in those kids, employees and even my pets—they were ALL amazing. Yes, that’s a gift—I’m extremely protective. I guess that has helped me out in life to balance out the areas I’m weak in. But because I don’t treat those under my care badly, I have very little tolerance for those in positions of authority treating me badly or anyone else badly... because I know the results of being harsh are so destructive. Nothing good ever comes of it.

Admittedly it’s also my nature to fight against people who abuse power and mistreat people. Sometimes I would freak out at how harsh I thought Gurinder was with the Indian sangat or individuals and it would practically ruin my trip even if he was being nice to me.

I’m not sure I’m taking the right approach there... still working on it but I was just born this way.

[Spence Tepper]

Facts :
$800M in fraudulent and defaulted loans to Gurinder and Dhillon family from the Singhs and shell companies run by both the Singh Brothers, Gurindar family members, including Gurinder's wife and sons, and RSSB leaders over several years, in violation of the law.

The biggest beneficiary: Gurindar and his family.

They received these illegal monies, and as this has come to light, they remain silent.

The greatest victim? The Fortis Healthcare patients.

And Medical Tourism in India, which has now taken a huge step backwards.

Who is to blame? Who was behind these coordinated and complicated frauds? That is still a matter of opinion. Gurinder might be behind it. It doesn't appear he did anything to stop it. He was an accomplice, but how much he knew, is still a guess.

But the above facts have already been established and are a matter of legal record and multiple audits.

[Spence Tepper]

Shor course, whether Gurinder knew much about it or not, most of his wealth was not earned. Most of it is defaulted loans.

[Brian Hines]

ilanovitch, your comment went in the Typepad spam folder. You should feel good that I check the spam folder regularly. So stop criticizing me and this blog, and be grateful that I spend so much time and money that allows people like you a free forum for your comments.

[Brian Hines]

Michael, I stand by everything I said. I'll even repeat your quote of mine to draw more attention to the shady dealings Gurinder Singh Dhillon is accused of by his cousin, Malvinder Singh.
-------------
"Actually, he isn't even at the level of a normally imperfect human being. It's outrageous that Gurinder Singh would sell his position as RSSB guru to Shivinder Singh in exchange for being forgiven the massive amount of money owed to companies once controlled by Shivinder and his brother Malvinder, who are Gurinder Singh's cousins.

What kind of a supposedly "spiritual" guru is willing to do this? Only a hugely greedy one.

Most ordinary people have a conscience, scruples, a line they won't cross. But Gurinder Singh has made death threats against Malvinder Singh, and offered up his position as guru for a lot of money."

[Sonya]

Well, that sounds reasonable, however, I don’t see how some of things I experienced were in my best interest. The results were disastrous. Well, I guess that depends on how you look at it. It did force me to explore more than I would have otherwise.

Thanks for your answer, but I just don’t believe it always happens that way. I think sometimes they make mistakes.

[Sonya]

An apology goes a long way.

[Sonya]

So I have a choice in which way I want to take it? And that choice would then have a butterfly effect... but you’re saying I have a choice right?? The butterfly can flap its wings one day or not or wait till the next day. Either way totally different outcomes would play out affecting everything in my life and even some around because I’ve chosen one direction of thinking (which leads to a certain path of behavior) because I have a choice. No fate, no destiny, just choice. Choices. Freewill. The butterfly... :)

[Spence Tepper]

Ilanovitch
Philosophy about perfect masters in the hands of an imperfect disciple ends up being imperfect.

And while it may be a comfort to the person who clings to it, such personal beliefs are no substitute for factual truth.

No one should adopt superstitious beliefs at all. Especially if that becomes a way to dismiss real harm.

You can't use beliefs in place of truth.... If you really love Truth.

[Sonya]

Ilanovitch, if you can solve the butterfly equation I’ll tell you how the Sikhs were silenced at the Dera in 2013.

[Sonya]

Hint: “equation”

[Meditation]

Recently a news figures out that around 500 mega bank defaulters of loans involving a few lacs crores have been protected against investigations from relevant authorities by Govt. A similar protection may be available to Singh brothers but they have to pay penalty to Daichi - a foreign group than India while it involved Courts for recovery and therefore financial trail was revealed which ends up at the Master's door.

Mr Spencer says:
'Philosophy about perfect masters in the hands of an imperfect disciple ends up being imperfect.

And while it may be a comfort to the person who clings to it, such personal beliefs are no substitute for factual truth.'

For would be disciples and imperfect disciples - may be a large percentage of the total will blink in the face of a mountain of evidence and what will be the choices available to them post an unfavourable verdict. Join Church of the churchless to know about the reality or look around for disciples who have been permitted entry inside.

In fact since we are imperfect therefore helpless otherwise each of us is a potential God. God may always be in comfort for He has very less to lose and when Master is perfect He has hardly anything to lose but we at least could wish for more of His grace in difficult times that He plays out as of now. Attempts put forward to defend the indefensible may be difficult to pursue with the staunch supporters of Truth whether of this Earth and beyond. Any over- exaggeration of a fact without discussing on intent may not be digestible.

It would definitely require for us to work to overcome imperfectness instead and find the Truth for ourselves as Mr Spence points out. Struggling to cover the harsh fact involving the Father may not be within our ambit or range of earthly minds whose acts no one can judge except for He himself, I believe. Regards.

[Dungeness]

You may conjecture about who the real masterminds are. You may conjecture that Baba Ji, the biggest beneficiary of this fraud over a decade, is somehow innocent, though he is factually an accomplice, having accepted these fraudulently obtained monies for years without voicing any concern. And he remains silent to this day.

I wonder about GSD's silence. Jumping on the conjecture train, it may be
on the advice of his atty. That is, no matter what he says, even if totally
absent of evidentiary value, it could be seen as a tacit admission of his
own involvement. It could fuel more conjecture. Taint his family's case
and possibly that of others.

Imagine if GSD said anything smacking of repentance: "There's been
enormous damage... etc, etc.. RSSB staff will cooperate fullly, yada
yada". Does anyone doubt the tabloid headlines would scream:
"The Baba acknowledges harm, says RSSB will cooperate. Are
confessions next?"

Actions to actually remedy wrongs rather than hollow words are the
real test of repentance anyway. Of course, there are those who've
already convicted him and others fervently convinced he's entirely
blameless. Both seem ready to go to the jury room and render a verdict
right now.

[Meditator]

Spelt wrongly the name 'Meditation' .

Please read same as Meditator.

[Nick GB]

From the post;
""Would you not say "even if this was all legal, why is their guru amassing god-awful amounts of money while preaching Guru Nanak's message: the accumulation of wealth is not possible without sins; nor does it accompany the accumulator after death (Paapan baaj hoi nahi...)."

The theological aspect aside, isn't this the crux of the matter? The legal and financial investigations aside again isn't this the crux of the matter?
Exactly why is a teacher professing a path to spiritual freedom and peace doing amassing wealth that is way way more than is needed to already live in luxury the rest of your life and for your family to live in same luxury for generations to come.
This surely represents a corruption of the role of Guide/Guru? It is the sheer excess that is the concern and the target of justified critique.
What sort of messages is this sending out? What the earth needs now are messages of sustainability, equality of wealth, enough, simple living, living lightly to protect our ecosystems. This flies in the face of all of that. It looks just like what it is; sheer acquisitiveness and greediness. RSSB faithful will try and interpret it as something else; some teaching ploy. However, sometimes things just do look like what they are!

[Jim Sutherland]

@Sonya,...regarding “ the butterfly effect”,.......

http://spiritofbutterflies.com/butterflies-and-the-holocaust/

Jim

[Michael]

In today's episode of "Dumb things that Brian says", let's examine one of his most recent comments. Brian says "ilanovitch, your comment went in the Typepad spam folder. You should feel good that I check the spam folder regularly. So stop criticizing me and this blog, and be grateful that I spend so much time and money that allows people like you a free forum for your comments."

Why would anyone feel good that he checks his spam folder regularly? There is no big deal if Brian does this. It's his blog. He's supposed to check his spam folder regularly. Hey Brian, I have an email address. Should the world feel grateful that I check my inbox regularly? Oh and my spam folder too. I check that regularly as well.

He also says "people like you". I wonder what he means by this. People like you? Since he is saying this to a person named Ilanovitch, could it be that Brian meant this in a racist way? I'd hate to think someone who provides a "free forum" is racist.

Speaking of free forum, why does Brian ask that Ilanovitch stop criticizing him and his blog? If it's supposed to be a "free forum" for "comments", all comments should be welcomed even those that that are critical of the blog and its owner. As Brian has pointed out in previous comments, this is a free country with free speech. If Brian truly believes in free speech, he should be encouraging anyone to criticize him if they feel the need to do so. It certainly appears as if Brian's fragile ego has been bruised by his response to Ilanovitch.

But wait. There's more. In today's episode of "Dumb things that Brian says", there is a bonus episode of "Dumb things that Brian says". Yesterday, he stated that I was making things up when I stated that he is posting accusations as facts. In response, I posted exactly what he wrote and said let's let the world decide. He totally validated my feeling that he is clueless about how silly he sounds; he did this by doubling down and saying that he stands by what he said and actually posted the same exact quote I used as evidence that he didn't understand the difference between accusations and facts.

This guy is a clown and it is hard to understand how he is a published author.

[Jen]

Yes, Sonya and others who are here complaining and whinging, oooh my guru hurt my feelings, I'm so hard done by, what a terrible life I have, poor little me... read the link that Jim posted. Do any of you wake up in the morning and give thanks that you are not living in a war torn country, do any of you have empathy for those who are suffering, or is the most important thing in your life to enjoy finding conflict and voicing opinions and judgment and arguing.

“They knew that soon they would become butterflies. Once dead, they would be out of that hellish place. Not tortured anymore. Not separated from their families. Not sent to gas chambers. None of this gruesome life mattered anymore. Soon they would leave their bodies the way a butterfly leaves its cocoon."

[s*]

For the one white is white..
For the other yelow is'' white''

So we should not be so easely touched by what other people maybe mean and say..
Eachone has their idea's and ''karma"..
So one truth is not for the other.
We can share our truth's right?
Without judging so much..

About the ''Guru"thing..it was a long time good to/for me.
Now I do not see the of need initiation from a ''oncontrolable perfect living master''.(not to control how perfect..??)
When he is perfect and I am not,how can I ''know'' his ''perfection''?
So from there we see it has to do with ''faith''in an other being..
So I try to have better faith in myself.
Not knowing is great..!!
Just Be..and being aware..

[s*]

And Sonya,
Pain is pain..when you feel it it’s there..
I also have pains and I am not going to deny pain.
So..it is your path and you tell about that and ofcourse it’s alright..!
It is there ..,and one sometimes( often) needs to share.
Also to see if it’s only you or me who is hurt..and the nessety about that.
If there are more people who feel that maybe there is something fault..
Just to look and seek for answers here and there.

[Spence Tepper]

Hi Meditator and Illanovitch
What is Truth?
We must discover this for ourselves.
Facts are objective. They can be verified through repeat exposure, testing. At some point we say "that's fact".

But it isn't truthful to claim a belief is an excuse to dismiss fact. That can't be a truthful belief.

Consider this entire creation is filled with flaws, errors, and harm. It is far from perfect. Bad stuff happens to good people. Some of it feels good but turns them bad.

And the opposite.

Even the wealthiest person must drive on the highway behind the most foolish.

This isn't our home.

Even in Satsang, even in His presence, that isn't our true home. That is to remind us of our true home.

But while we are here we carry certain responsibilities, which includes judging right from wrong, so that we live with the smallest harm to others.

We can't ignore crimes because they are conducted by relatives.

We must help to prevent further harm, while also acting with all compassion for all concerned, our relatives and the strangers they have harmed.

This is part of our journey home.

You may take all this as nothing more than a reminder of that.

[Brian Hines]

Michael, do you know anything about blogging? Or about writing books? Obviously I do, since I've been blogging regularly since 2003, and have written three books -- all of which were written with the encouragement of the RSSB guru, and have gotten a lot of praise from readers.

Here's some facts about my blogging, since you appear to be ignorant of how it works.

It's a labor of love. I pay the blogging service and get no money from blogging. I have three blogs, so I try to devote some time to each of them on most days. Comments regularly are put into a spam section by Typepad. I have to be on my laptop to find them, since spam can't be accessed via my iPhone.

My wife and I live on ten non-easycare acres. Yesterday we had to deal with a pressure tank problem with our well. I did the grocery shopping. I went to a Tai Chi class. I walked our dog. My wife is having eye surgery today. Though retired, I'm busy every day. Yet I do my best to keep my blogs running smoothly, which includes remembering to check the spam folders now and then.

I don't need to allow unfettered comments. I could shut off comments completely. I could moderate comments, so only comments genuinely relating to the subject of a post could be published. But I like to allow people to comment freely, since I recognize that a number of people like to use comments as a sort of "message board" to interact with other commenters.

In return, I simply ask now and then that people keep in mind how much time and trouble, plus some money, it takes to keep a blog up and running with regularly updated content. Often I sense a feeling of entitlement, like it is a blog visitor's right to be able to say whatever they want on someone else's blog or web site.

Actually it isn't.

If you go to major newspaper sites like the Washington Post or New York Times you'll find strict guidelines for commenters. I'm much looser, because I believe in free speech.

Lastly, I'll simply observe that you should go to the RSSB web site and blog, then see how they treat comments. Oh, I forgot... you can't do this, because RSSB doesn't allow comments. But I do. So who is more open-minded?

[Sonya]

@ilanovich
“Discipline at dealing with one's circumstances is all you have.”

So I have the choice to be disciplined? Do people have a choice of whether they do their meditation or not? If not then the guru doesn’t need to ever complain that people aren’t doing their meditation. And if people do have a choice about whether they do their meditation or not, then think about it. If I got up this morning or anytime today and did my meditation then do you have any idea of the ripple in time that would occur?? Me getting up (by choice) as opposed to sleeping in—I might trip over the cat as I walk down the stairs to make a cup of tea. Let’s say I fall really hard and break my arm. Then we have to go to the emergency room and then the whole schedule for those medical personnel is impacted by my having a broken arm... and so on, and so on, and so on, and so on, and so on (I don’t think I can say “and so in” enough here).

Whereas if I had stayed in bed, no tripping over the cat or broken arm or rearranging other people’s schedules or any of that other “and so on” stuff. So, do I or don’t I have a choice as to whether I meditate????? And if I DON’T HAVE A CHOICE then the guru CANNOT EVER worry or complain about people not doing their meditation.

Do you see where the idea of limited freewill is not to well thought out?? It’s a mathematical problem.

And I will go ahead and give to the Quantum answer to both the butterfly effect and the Silence—The Cause is the Effect and the Effect is the Cause. Equilibrium.

[Sonya]

@s*
Thank you again. Your words are always infused with love. The kindness of your sentiment is like a calming agent.

[Sonya]

@Jen
I don’t feel sorry for myself. I count my blessings every day. I don’t expect anyone to understand what happened because it wasn’t the one event. That event was the culmination of many, many experiences that took place over 13 years leading up to that event. It was a learning lesson. And like they say, what doesn’t kill you makes you stronger. I don’t expect you or GSD or anyone to truly understand what happened. You have to remember that essentially every event is the culmination of thousands of events (it’s a math thing) so sometimes certain events will knock you completely out even though they appear simple to the people around you.

[jay]

We should all encourage and thank Brian Hines for keeping this forum going, and for allowing a full range of opinions on RS topics. As far as I know this is the only RS forum that allows free speech.

[Spence Tepper]

Hi Ianovitch:

You wrote:
"So called "fact" which is not verified through direct association and direct perception is not truth. It is only alleged information by which you form an intellectual construct to form an opinion."

You see, science is based upon agreement for a set of conditions that verify something is true.
Personal opinion can be based upon subjective experience. That is direct, but it is filtered through the human mind.

An individual who claims a different, higher, experience, cannot transfer that to anyone else.

Their meditation may have given them direct access to things that could not be explained in a blog.

So even they are left with discussion experiences and information available to anyone.

Ultimately, when your children need to be taught lessons, or when you need to make decisions, you must use this flawed human instrument to do it.

It's no different in all matters, whether judging the veracity of our internal experience, or the evidence you see externally.

Even your own physical and mental senses are flawed reporters, each with their own bias.

Ilanovitch, what you have not proven is Gurinder's innocence, and this amid a growing mountain of evidence of less-than-responsible, possibly criminal behavior.

Gurinder may have many spiritual and other-worldly reasons for mastermining one of the broadest and largest-scale schemes of layered and complex fraud and theft in India's entire history. And the sheer scale and complexity suggests the brilliance of universal mind at work, though for nefarious ends.

But regardless of his specific role, such fraud where he was the greatest beneficiary took place is already a matter of established fact.

[Sonya]

@jay
Our blessed free speech. =)

@Spence
Agreed. I have never understood why they call it Science of the Soul when it can only be observed individually. Not to be catty, but it would be more accurate to call it Pseudo-science of the Soul.

However, I'm a huge fan of Fringe Science... although I'm not sure it falls in that category either.

@ilanovich
Thank you for finally answering my question... "Ultimately there is no choice at all."
Then you must realize that Brian has no choice in what he posts on this blog. He has no choice but to do this and I guess you have no choice but to in vain try to dissuade him.

Nobody here has any choice at all. Brian can't NOT post and you can't NOT comment. Futile??

The problem is you're repeating everything verbatim as Gurinder says it. I'm not a complex person... really. I just hate it when people can't do math!!!!! Grant it, the Quantum stuff you get a pass on. =)

These comments will all serve to grate on your nerves terribly when you run out of the indoctrinated canned answers that you're giving. I'm not attacking you or anyone here. I'm just say that for all you Satsangis THINK about what you are saying. Why do you blindly accept the "karma is exact" thing without even knowing what "exact" is? Even of the Masters of RSSB have had different views of exactness, so think about it. Gurinder said burn the books--at least he's questioning. He said there is no Kal (according to Osho's comment). He's changing things and yet people still have this cult mentality of not questioning the current administration.

But forget about RSSB for a second. Just think about karma which is the same thing as Old Testament eye for an eye and compare it to Forgiveness. There's another change in the teachings from Gurinder--he said that the Masters don't take on sins, they can choose to but as a rule they don't. Whereas all the Masters before him said they took on a portion of the disciples sins. I'm using this small example (actually it's kinda huge) to illustrate how you need to think about the overall teachings. If Gurinder can change some of the fundamental teachings then what do you think the next Master will do? And will you jump on the bandwagon and immediately start regurgitating what the next Master says if he adds to, takes away or changes the teachings?

Some rules from a few Masters ago don't apply anymore. No one told us why, they just made the change and nobody is supposed to ask questions about it. Like the Masters used to (allegedly) not take gifts but of course now they do. And it used to be that the Master reviewed all application for initiation but now he doesn't and all you have to do to get initiated is fill out the application with the right answers the same way you would for a driver's licence. These are FUNDAMENTAL differences.

[Dungeness]

RSSB guru now faced with repaying $909 million in allegedly fraudulent loans

Um, forgetting the tedious "alleged" qualifier, wouldn't it be fairer to say:

RSSB guru & family (GuruFam?) now faced with repaying...

I mean, there are always a few "usual suspects" in a crime family. Hey, one of 'em might give up "Mr. Big" for a chance
at guru-hood.