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March 21, 2019


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Why doesn't Gurinder simply pay what he owes?
Hand to forehead moment.
Gosh what a simple notion.
Personal responsibly. Pass it on.

"Shivinder now blames his brother Malvinder..."
So that's good you get to be a Guru?
Cousin Guru Ji's lessons of life....
'Let the other guy take thy blame. '

Can you prove Gurinder paid his debts?
Seems from all the evidence that he owes nearly a billion dollars in unpaid loans. That's why he has control over those properties. He bought them with the loans.

So if he just pays what he owes, problem solved, right?

It's really simple, Ilanovitch.


Namaste, baby!

Hi Ilsnovitch
Yes Gurinder and his family took hundreds of millions in loans which he still hasn't paid back. It's old news dude.

"According to the financial statements of these companies reviewed by Mint, ₹430 crore was received by Best Healthcare from Fortis and Religare group while ₹207.15 crore was advanced to Dhillon’s sons Gurpreet and Gurkirat Singh Dhillon. An additional ₹287 crore loan was extended to the Godhwani and Dhillon families out of the ₹496 crore received from Fortis and Religare by Fern Healthcare. A sum of ₹223.15 crore was also advanced to the Dhillon family by Modland Wears, ₹152 crore by Adept Creations and ₹8 crore by Rosestar Marketing Pvt. Ltd (cross holding with Green Line)."

Read more at: https://www.dealstreetasia.com/stories/fortis-fraud-sfio-121941/

Now, let's do a little addition, shall we?

From the above...
207 crore to Dhillon family (sons Gurkirat and Gurpreet)
287 crore to both Godhwani and the Dhillon family (Godhwani, Dhillon's chosen leader to help the Singhs, and his own family),
223 crore to the Dhillon family
152 crore to the Dhillon family
Total.... Hold on let me get out my HP 12C calculator.....

869 crore... Before interest...

So.. This is a long way to say, "Dude, pay da man!"

Yes, when you haven't paid your debts, you sell stuff to do what you can.
It's called responsibility.....

Pass it on!

"All members of the spiritual commune, including the guru, are expected to support themselves financially,,,,"


Well, it's more a goal than an expectation... For some...
No, more like a hope...
No, probably a vague desire.....
Yes, and the Guru cannot have desire, right?

Hi ilanovitch
I like your passion. Hopefully you can put it to some good.

The loans listed were only a partial listing from the linked live mint article. That article also pointed out that the size of the debt is now estimated by the SEBI at over Rs 2,000 crore.

But what I listed was only the amounts directly attributable to the Dhillon family in the article. It doesn't, for example, list Shabnam's various holdings including Religare etc...

869 crore RS in dollars at the exchange rate of. 015 dollars per rupee is $130,000, 000.

That's $130 million.

No small amount. Let's start there.

Why not pay his debts?

Too simple.


ilanovitch, won’t the courts see both brothers equally responsible even if Shivinder was at the Dera during that time? Do you have reason to be concerned that they might both go to jail?

Was that comment for me?? No, I’m not trying to insinuate or intimidate just trying to understand the situation they’re facing. You explained it pretty well—the part about liquidation duress and the policy of keeping those properties generating money. The Indian courts seem to issue hard deadlines, and then back to court and a new deadline... over and over. Their situation sounds very scary this side but if you have more time then the revenue generated over time could help pay back money. If the courts agree. I guess that’s their best plan.

And, obviously I have no interest in selling property in Delhi or India... or anywhere for that matter.

ilanovitch, I suspect you don't even read my blog posts before you comment on them. If you had read this one, you would have seen that Malvinder says the RSSB guru owes $870 million, which is really close to one billion dollars. Read and be enlightened. This is a quote from the MoneyControl.com story:
Gurinder Singh Dhillon, the spiritual head of Radha Soami Satsang Beas (RSSB), his family members and companies controlled by them are said to be in control of some of these properties. Dhillon is a father like figure for the Singh brothers.

Malvinder Singh in his affidavit to the Supreme Court, alleged that Dhillon, his family members and companies controlled by him used funds from the Ranbaxy sale to buy real estate and loaned over Rs 6,000 crore [$870 million].

Singh brothers also blamed former Religare top executive Sunil Godhwani for the group’s troubles. In a joint statement, they earlier said that Godhwani was the architect of the financial structures, including the loans to the Dhillon family and companies, that led to their financial troubles.

You must have posted those just before I posted mine. Honestly, it sounds like an absolute mental hell for them to be going through... my father worked in international finance. He had a higher threshold for risk and stupidly dangerous situations than the average crazy person. He pretty much got away with murder... not really “murder” but of all the crazy deals he pulled in his life he only served 18 months on a 20 year sentence in the US, 6 months house arrest in Singapore and a few days in Geneva. But then one time in Mexico he was put in jail—held at the prison—for a year until they decided whether he was guilty or not. Eventually they decided he wasn’t “guilty” but he almost died during that ordeal.

My father seems to be addictive to terrifying situations. funny but true

He was never mean to me (just self-absorbed) and I loved him so I was absolutely sick with worry the year he was in prison in Mexico and the 18 months in the US. I didn’t really care about Singapore because he was staying at a decent hotel under “house arrest”.

Once, he wired money into my personal account from one of his questionable accounts and the bank froze all of our accounts. It goes without saying, my attorney, the DA in Austin told me my father was a sociopath and to never speak to him ever again. The weird thing is, like I said, he was never mean to me. At worst he was neglectful but usually nice. I tried to ignore him for a while, but that is litterally impossible. Even if you’re dad is a diagnosed Narcissist Sociopath, you still love him. Messed up I guess...

See, these are the kinds of first world problems I have!! 😂😂 And there are a thousand more stories about him. Only by the grace of God is he still living. My mother is an absolute Saint.

It is no matter for Gurinder to put a plan of repayment together.

Just like a homeowner who can't make their payments.

They offer a plan...

Before their assets are seized by a court.

Gurinder could have put such a plan together long ago.

And avoided all this.

The guy who took the money needs to give it back.

It's too simple.

You are making it much more complicated, like listing out all the parts of a car. They all work together.

It's just a matter of the designer doing their part.

Pay your bills. Act responsibly.

I think it's a shame that some who profess spiritual yearnings haven't a clue about these simple and easy things such as personal responsibility.

You make Brian's argument against spirituality, and the ills of Sant Mat, and Gurinder in particular, far more powerfully than Brian.

ilanovitch, you haven't provided any evidence to back up your assertions.

So what you're saying in the comment above is just your personal opinion. You're entitled to your opinion, but what you say goes against what the Indian financial press has reported about the RSSB guru's loans, and also what Malvinder says in his criminal complaint.

Just wanted to point this out, because you like to accuse other people of mixing up opinions and facts, and you've just done that yourself.

As for the millions of loans given to Gurinder, his wife and sons directly from their own shell companies, these are all a matter of recorded documentation.

The vastly larger amounts were given to the shell companies and from there to other companies where Shabnam, Gurpreet and Gurkirat where principles at the time.

So either directly to individuals of the Dhillon family or to these shell companies where Dhillon family and RSSB leaders were directors and owners, the total amount siphoned to them is 6,000 crore, or about $900 million.

The SEBI has confirmed over RS 2,000 crore in their crimes wing investigation were likely unpaid. But those are only the Fortis loans they are investigating. And that is only their estimate.

Their earlier completed audit to date has proven about $56 million in fictitious and fraudulent loans that can be traced through the shell companies back to Dhillon family and RSSB leaders as unpaid. This was a limited audit. But the broader crimes wing division investigation is still ongoing. That 2,000 crore is their current estimate.

Whatever the amount, why hasn't Gurinder put a plan together?

If he had, then Malvinder would also have his own plan based on that one, and so would Shivender.

But today they are involved in blame and silence instead.

Not good role models of humility and responsibility.

Gurinder is a saint compared to my dad. Even I know that. But like I said, my dad loved me. It’s a very psychologically complex dynamic when it happens in your own family. Even more so in how it affects a child’s psyche. Who knows.

Gurinder offered Malvinder a joint family arrangement to tackle the shortfalls which was rejected.

As I recall, GSD ends his note to Malva with the
cryptic words "to settle accounts". GSD doesn't
have a criminal history, not does his family, so,
arguably those words could signal his family's
intent to begin repayment of loans.

Now it's heading to court where prior allegiants are turned against each other.

Because of the many players and intricacy of the
fraud, that's where it belongs.

@ ilanovitch

Yes, unfortunately I couldn’t get it out of my mind last night after you mentioned it. My dad had a has had a huge impact on all of my relationships. For some reason all these memories came flooding back—for hours. I’m COMPLETELY broken... for life.

But I still feel tremendous empathy for anyone that has to go to jail or prison and their families. It’s not just the prisoners that suffer. For every person in prison there are many close friends and family members suffering too. It just sucks all the way around. I never feel any sort of gladness when even an obvious criminal is sentenced. It’s the system but I don’t understand happiness in suffering.

On that happy note... I’m going to get back in touch with my therapist (thanks to you!). 😕

Don't project yourself above than Master, don't tell HIM what HE is not doing and what HE should,

f***ing dude, mind your own business dude.

You are neither jury, nor complainant, still behaving so rude.

f***ing dude, mind your own business due.

Sitting in US, going through bloated news, in reality not having even a prelude.

f***ing dude, mind your own business due.

Hi Ilanovitch:

You wrote:
"Gurinder offered Malvinder a joint family arrangement to tackle the shortfalls which was rejected."

This is only true if you believe what Malvinder provided. And that letter is a little creepy.
It doesn't ask Malvinder to accept a payment plan as a substitute for payment of a loan owed directly to his company. It's not a letter to a bank or lender.

It asks Malvinder personally to assume all legal liability, that is, liability to OTHER organizations in exchange for who knows what.

No saint ever does that. This letter asks Malvinder, basically, to go to jail for Gurinder, since, if Gurinder doesn't pay those loans, how will Malivinder?

This isn't a payment arrangement with a lender.

I myself prefer not to believe Gurinder would go that far to escape personal responsibility.

But if so, it's not good.

Short version: Gurinder owes money. Gurinder should pay his outstanding and delinquent loans, or offer a reasonable payment plan to the organizations involved directly.

If those organizations forgive part of Gurinder's loans, then Malvinder is off the hook too.

But unfortunately, the Supreme Court of India isn't having any of that. They have ordered poor Malvinder and Shivinder to recover those monies.

Had Gurinder taken full responsibility to arrange a workable plan long before being ordered by the Garnishee orders of the Supreme Court of India to pay in full, this could all have been avoided.

All that would have been required is an honest admission "I took the money, but I cannot repay it. Here is what I can do..."

So simple....So simple.

Hi One Initiated:

The Song's always the same
What a man owes, he gots to pay!
It's the way, man, it's just the way.

So if he need mercy, then just say
Yah, beg for it, we all do, every day.
From each other, and to shed that little ray
Forgive without delay
Yah, forgive each other without delay.

Umm... I just came back to add that I'm not feeling sorry for myself (I'll smack the first person that says I am--just had a really shitty night that's all).

But THEN I read the recent posts and realized I'm being totally narcissistic here. Obviously there are MUCH bigger problems in the "room".

Good luck, guys...

I've been following the details of the murky goings-on at RSSB only cursorily, so it could be I'm missing something here, but here's what strikes me:

All of the liabilities are the two brothers'. As far as I can see, Gurinder Singh or his acolytes/associates do not seem to carry any liability per se. (Legally that is: morally they well may.)

Of course, every loan transaction necessarily must have both a borrower and a lender. I suppose that, in as much the Singh brothers' past/present companies made out unsecured loans to GSD's past/present companies, to that extent liabilities vest with GSD (or his companies). But surely reaching out for those monies will require the Singh brothers to move court against GSD? Merely Dai-ichi raising claims on the Singh brothers, and those claims being upheld by the courts of law, does not automatically create any liability for GSD. That latter is something that needs to be established separately, by the Singh brothers (or their past/present companies) moving court against GSD (or his past/present companies), and this is a wholly separate matter from the Singh brothers being held responsible for their liabilities to Dai-ichi or whoever.

Of course, all of this is legally speaking. Morally/ethically speaking, obviously there is a liability. But an ethical/moral liability is not a matter for courts of law!

The bottom line is that the Singh brothers seem to have been royally played by GSD. The golden spoon they were born with seems to have been nicely snatched right off their mouth by their Guru, whom they made the mistake of trusting blindly -- or so it seems to me.

As RSSB needs big funds for the future
It could be that these real estate values go bitcoin
multiplied with 3 zeros

Trust the SatGuru Guys

I was psychic before initiation

Jean, Atlanta
why my state is banned Brian
I must use TOR VPN >UK LONDON now ,
if not our state is refused by this blog


" No Saint would ever do that "

Me: How do you know that?

Isn't HE above myriads of galaxies and their laws


I see now that ALL great USA States of our US of A are blocked
UK is accepted


Hi Jean:

You wrote:
"Isn't HE above myriads of galaxies and their laws"

No. He created all the laws and honors all of them.
When you go beyond all this then you are in a position to comment about that place.

But here each individual, especially the Master, should always live to the highest ethics.

It's simple. Pay your debts.

All the rest is justification.

And we aren't really justifying the Master.

We are making excuses, actually, for ourselves.

And that is nothing like spirituality.


I'm sorry to say but making personal remarks about me has nothing to do with the facts presented in the press, and even given a large dose of variance, the fact shines through that the Dhillon family has millions in loans that are delinquent, and they have resigned positions, restructured shell companies, (as they are trying to do with Religare / Finvest) to avoid legal responsibility.

When a bank give you a loan and you default, the bank is responsible to its shareholders, even to the Securities and Exchange Commission if it does this recklessly.

But you, if you are the one who took the loan, you carry personal responsibility.

And that is what appears entirely absent here.

Other personal comments about me individually can only be your projections, since we do not know each other.

@ Spencer - you are using man made mindset. Jean (hello) is way way above you in thinking and knowing!

You have proved that you have never been within as you would “KNOW”.

Don’t say in the future to the Lord “no one helped me”.

You may find that you are husband and wife in the future incarnation with Brian. Be careful with whom you attach yourself with in criticising holy men

Help for you is coming from a lot of sources.

Can’t understand why people lie about going within.

This is my last email to you as I do not want to create more karma with you!

Why do people who claim to see the big picture make personal negative criticisms of anyone 's character?
Especially those they disagree with?

This isn't actually about Baba Ji Arjuna.

All that matters here is how we treat those with whom we disagree.

That's the karmic part.

Your criticism lightens my burdens, but may add to your own. Please act only in your personal interests.

The matter is critical for the Guru as also to our digestion. Since it affects our daily balance as the One we have trusted defaults on the same very principles by choice or Divine plan.

But for others who claim to have seen Him inside may not hold relevance in the light of tremendous hue and cry that is going on on this earth.

Consequences to Poor as we are will be borne by us till such time He reveals Himself inside to prove His existence now or at the time of death or beyond to the worthy seekers of truth.

Somebody's spiritual wealth will not add a penny for others.

Clearly, when you step back for a moment...
And take a cleansing breath,... ;)

You may see that this all has nothing whatsoever to do with Baba Ji!

Neither love or anger.

This has only to do with personal ethics.

We have no idea of what actually happened, and we aren't really commenting on that.

But this also challenges what each of us really knows, what we choose to accept, what we choose to defend, what we choose to attack.

The man written about in the press isn't Baba Ji, given.

But those default their loans with effort to compensate, with only blame or silence and no contrition, that requires intervention, if only to prevent further harm. This is not a discussion about personalities, because we can't know that.

It is only a question of personal ethics.

That is why Brian is doing Maharaji's work.

@ Spencer - no I am lightening your burdens- I am trying to help you save you!


Blind faith and ego, sadly, are often connected.

That's what this is about.

"The bottom line is that the Singh brothers seem to have been royally played by GSD."

That's certainly a possible conclusion, though we don't know enough yet to transcend the plane of seems.

But at this point in this controversy, I'm at least as skeptical of the Singh brothers - - 1 in particular, Malvinder - - as I am of the RSSB guru. And that's mainly because Malvinder has made several rather outrageous and unsubstantiated claims.

Malvinder claims that he's received "death threats" from Gurinder. This claim makes no sense to me. For one thing, death threats seem out of character for Gurinder But even it were true that Gurinder made such threats, it means that Gurinder thought murder would somehow shield him from legal scrutiny on the loans. Or that successfully threatening Malvinder to keep quiet would likewise make the loan problem go away. These are the kinds of solutions to finanical problems that one might hear about from someone living in a trailer in Florida, but not for Gurinder.

Malvinder also claims that the money in question was part of a deal, set by Gurinder, to sell the RSSB guruship. This too seems very implausible to me. Like many here, I'm not a total fan of how Gurinder has played his role of guru. But it does seem to me that Gu;inder takes the role fo guru seriously.

For these and other reasons, I don't see Malvinder as a reliable source of information. He may very well be telling the unvarnished truth, but I'll wait for the courts to shift the actual evidence (which none of us have) as render a verdict.

@ Spencer - I don’t believe in him really but my gut feeling says there is something there - sometimes you know - you just know.

Talking about ego - you drop yours first and be the example and I will follow suit.

Yours is ego + self righteousnes (oh look at me! I’m doing justices work. Hey look at me! I’m reading all the press releases and am dissecting all the details as I work as a consultant. Oh look at me Brian - I think you a doing gods work. Sorry I was against you earlier on in this blog. Oh look me and hey guess what look at me. I am demanding that GSD pays what is due but don’t forget to look at me.

Get the drift. Get a grip on the ego brother and be the example so I that I may follow suit and become a better man.

All the best

Eyes front. Look at the facts of the matter. Share your thoughts about those alone. Avoid personal comments about those you do not agree with.

The man has debts. He should pay them.

It's not complicated.

$870 million is but a drop in the Divine Ocean of cash that awaits us.

@ Spencer -NO. You and Everyone has debts - he knows what he is doing and you don’t!!!

Personal remarks - you are insulting him! Don’t ! There is more behind that than you can fathom!!

Facts - let’s see who is right on this!

The facts you expose will one day haunt and expose You!


Oh Arjuna
You make my day
Pls stay

No. He created all the laws and honors all of them.

Ha Ha Ha & Ha

If HE desires , this will :"have never happened"

tomorrow Brian would be his deerest devotee
It's called MAUJ
He can change all this in a flash

Yes go some 'IN' and you know it better than me


@ Jean - hello.

Thank you. All I’m stressing to Spencer don’t fall for this - facts included - there is more to this than we know.

Jean, you’re out of touch with reality. America hasn’t been banned. Everyone can read my blog posts and learn the truth. And no, the RSSB guru doesn’t have the power to make me return to the fold.

Satsangis believe in karma. If Gurinder has done any kind of wrongdoing he just like the rest of us will be punished. Who will be the Judge in all of this? Well, if you believe in a Creator God then thats where the judgment will come from.

Its not only foolish but also dangerous to believe that some human being, some kind of 'Master' is an enlightened being. How can we ever know? If you have no expectations and stop putting someone on a pedestal then kindness and compassion will prevail.

@ Jen hello .

No one external judges. We judge ourselves - our own body will testify against. What better judge than our own self.

Great system - don’t you think? 😀

Hi Arjuna,

Yes, we do judge ourselves. I like being in observer mode, constantly watching myself and my reactions. I'm an old gal now and think back to when I became a Charan initiate, so many years ago, and still stick to the main principles but don't like sitting meditation. Now my quiet little life is kind of like a meditation in and of itself.

Cheers bro, keep being strong, young soldier man :)

@ Jen - hello. Good to hear from you.

I always watch what I do but my training has given me great self control - by God I needed it. But I always wondered if We are judged in the end - who records all the data of all our actions. Must be us - that records all this.

Heaven forbid if God has to do it. He may have to rent time on Google’s Cloud for storage lol.

Have a great weekend Jen and be happy😀

Hi Jean
You wrote
"If HE desires , this will :"have never happened"

I agree. But the fact that it is happening, that some Gurus turn out to be fake and imperfect, and that this Guru, whom we have loved dearly and still do, is in the middle of hundreds of millions in fraudulent and defaulted loans is both a fact and his Mauj.

It may well disappear, or that may be wishful thinking. But the fact is it is here now, and by His Mauj.

No point in denying it.

A man should pay his bills.

Hello Spence
you wrote
"But the fact is it is here now, and by His Mauj."

The word Mauj is a Hindi word that is use to imply in various context the meanings of enjoyment, playfulness and will.

The entire Singh brothers saga with the Master is that Divine Consciousness' Mauj - part of the divine script - a cliffhanger sort of season finale...

In a recent Q&A session the Master commented that its about time to begin the process of sieving the wheat.

What it meant is for us to ponder....

Is all this drama to test our faith ?

For the Master's disciples who are in doubts , what better time than now to seek the truth within.....

Thanks 🙂 I’ll admit, the one thing Gurinder and I share is the same temperament. I realize a lot of times that I get upset with him for doing the same things I do... it’s just I’m tough in different situations (that in my mind feel justified somehow). I’m easy on kids and friends but really tough on authority figures or anyone trying to exercise control over me or other people unnecessarily. Two EXTREMES in one personality. Everyone that knows me knows that.

I love reading biographies about other people and hearing other peoples’ stories. It’s just fascinating how different we all are. Sometimes people who have very normal and predictable lives are the most interesting to me. I find it intriguing how some can just stay “even” without much effort. I’m like, how do you do that?!?! I have drama before I even get out of bed. 😂

By hearing other peoples’ stories I usually find at least one thing they do that I can adopt or look at differently. For me friendships are easy—there’s no competition or control. Just sharing experiences and stories. Close relationships are more difficult, there’s a lot more at stake.

I would have enjoyed being a therapist—a “paid friend”—because people are endlessly fascinating. And after you listen you other people’s problems you start thinking, “My life’s not so bad” or “I’m not alone”.

Hi Ilanovich
You wrote
"For the Master's disciples who are in doubts , what better time than now to seek the truth within....."

That's very good advice.

If it helps you separate from the encrusted system of beliefs, destroy the layer of superstition and dogma that engulfs the consciousness, it's a good thing.

If not, then the grain must be not only threshed but ground.

Indeed, grain is not only beaten to separate the husk from the grain, but then that grain must be ground fine...

And then baked under fire.

Grain must be ground to make bread, Ilanovitch...

The debts are real... And Master, who took them on, must now pay them....

This is a great time.... It's His Mauj. No point in denying it and no cause for anger or defensive withdrawal into dogma.

Took my some time to come up with a response to that. Had to think about it... I’ve witnessed enough of Gurinder’s powers that I have no doubt he’s “something”. I’ve seen him everywhere. Sometimes I think he doesn’t even realize I’ve seen him... but I’m not one to react to that sort of thing because on some level it just feels natural. It’s very confusing.

Must be some sort of sanskara— a real struggle against submission. Besides love can kill. People die of broken hearts all the time... they can, I mean things can end tragically. When someone you’ve completely trusted on a deep level more than you’ve trusted anyone else in your entire life suddenly treats you as if they have never cared about you ever, it’s devastating. It makes you feel like there’s not a single person on this planet you can trust. And then it’s really hard to trust again. I’m not saying it would be impossible, I’m just saying it feels like the hardest thing to do.

Maybe the fear I had all along was something in my subconscious that somehow knew something like that was going to happen some day. And it was all so ironic (again with irony), the thing that I was asking him about ended up being exactly what he almost did to me. People can die of a broken heart.

On a lighter note, because it’s Saturday and sunny outside and I don’t feel like thinking serious and intense thoughts right now, my biggest decision at the moment is do I take my nieces for pizza or Mexican food... 🤔 they’re at Comic Con right now spending all my money while I’m waiting for them.

Decisions, decisions...

Have you ever seen I Heart Huckabees? It was my favorite film for a long time. I like films that make fun of how serious we take life and overthink think the existential stuff.

Have a good day or night

@ Spencer - if it’s masters “mauj” who the four camels and a giraffe are you to tell him to pay????

Don’t force the Lord to make you chaff!

Hi Ilanovitch
Yes the quote was from Solomon.

No I have no doubts on these matters, for every day the facts are confirmed.

Hi Arjuna

It is Master's Mauj that I believe as I do, that we all must pay for our debts, and should be happy to do so. We incurred those debts just as he and his family accepted those loans.

Paying debts can also be forgiving, accepting. But it is often asking for forgiveness

I've noticed this simple thing. Those who never see the need to ask for forgiveness are rarely forgiving. And those who beg for it, give forgiveness like the wealth of a gentle rain, that fills the lakes, the Custerns, the wells.

So if you have ever begged for forgiveness, you may need to pay up by practicing forgiveness even here.

After Mueller’s two year Witch Hunt, looking for shit on Trump, so they could connect him to Russia, no one has found any thing to hang Trump with, and the Report is worthless. Perhaps Gurinder’s Witch Hunt also will end up Bogus , and they may be shooting Blanks at his Financial failures to pay his Bills. He might be writting Checks to Creditors as you read this, just to appease Spence and Brian. HaHa


Hello Jim / hope you are well.

It annoys me in that we don’t even sometimes know the people who have been in our lives and close to us. And yet hear we have Dempsey and Makepeace (Brian and his new disciple Spencer) thinking they know what is really going on.

They are privy to a small amount of the mission - the end may well be huge debts for them to pay. Let’s Say that GSD graces Spencer with extreme poverty as an acknowledgement that he heard Spencer say “man has to pay”. I warned Spencer not to take on such people - there is something there.

He replied that my criticism is lightening his burden lol. What a self righteous person he is.

I’m a flawed human and accept something is going on - but accept let’s wait and see.

Wow. We just went full circle.

ilanovitch, what I meant is you made me realize that none of it was real. The Course in Miracles talks about the Atonement and the Holy Instant. It’s amazing, in that instant I realized none of it was real. A lot of teachings in ACIM are similar to Sant Mat except for the idea of a “past”. There really is no past, it is but an illusion that only exists in time and time is not “real”. Holding on to the past is the opposite of love. True love only exists outside of time. The Course in Miracles is truly miraculous.

Thanks for being a true friend. All the best to you... now I know which direction to go. 😊

The only purpose of the Master is to remind his followers to search for Reality within. All else is false and our relationship with Him is false unless it’s based on experience within. I guess that’s why people sometimes get disappointed with the personality of the Master because that’s not who the true Master is. The true Master is within. One doesn’t need to go to the Dera or ask any questions of him directly—as a matter of fact it would make a lot more sense if stopped the whole Q&A thing. The only answer in Sant Mat is meditation. If you know anyone that knows him, you should tell him to stop the Q&A sessions... then there will be very little for people to murmur about. It’s really just a distraction. Anyway, I’ve started my meditation practice again. If he is really “real” then I’ll see him within. Till then...

Take care

U useless fellows it seems u don't have any other work except to criticise, pls see within u how much perfect u r then pinpoint anyonelse.

The only purpose of the Master is to remind his followers to search for Reality within. All else is false and our relationship with Him is false unless it’s based on experience within. I guess that’s why people sometimes get disappointed with the personality of the Master because that’s not who the true Master is. The true Master is within.

@Sonya, - you've captured beautifully in a paragraph my
entire understanding of mysticism.

One doesn’t need to go to the Dera or ask any questions of him directly—as a matter of fact it would make a lot more sense if stopped the whole Q&A thing. The only answer in Sant Mat is meditation. If you know anyone that knows him, you should tell him to stop the Q&A sessions... then there will be very little for people to murmur about. It’s really just a distraction.

I recall Ishwar Puri saying much the same. Q&A is for the mind,
for its doubts and distractability. Internally, we know the truth.
We already have the answers within us. Meditation just keeps
the monkey busy and out of mischief till they're found.

Yes, I believe now it was all for the best. Like I said, I follow ACIM which is over 1,200 pages in text, workbook, manual for teachers, terms and supplements. It encourages meditation on what is real. There are similarities in thought to eastern philosophy and there are some differences. I was just reading today that nothing the eyes perceive in this world is real. The guru at Dera—the person he is (personality, persona) isn’t real but the spirit that is all the Masters is real and it is within. I think this event happened as a result of my inner teacher trying to teach me not to put importance on him. He is but a man simply trying to share his teachings with people to help them spiritually. That was the whole point of that event that left me feeling hurt. It was simply to look for the right teacher (in my case ACIM—it’s different for everyone) that can help me see only what is real. Not the shadows of men.

Meditation each day is important to bring one closer to the truth. Take time out from what one sees outside and look within.

Ilanovitch writes that Jessie is a Newbie that,...”Jesse knows nothing, completely on the outside of everything, and has zero affiliation with anything RSSB offers or promotes, yet makes unfounded sweeping judgements and Brian backs him up as a saviour of skeptic aggrandising .

If anything can be classed bullshit it's Jesse's sweeping generalization from someone who has never met, seen, or had any personal encounter with the object of his misplaced disdains and closed minded blind assertions.

Posted by: ilanovitch

Jim wonders who the Newbie is?

Jessie has been hiding from Appreciative Reader, who smothers him with kind words, every time he comes out of hiding to help Brian , with pages, and pages, and pages, and pages, of unintelligent gobbledee Glook clutter, while acting like a little Puppy Dog excitingly pissing on any one’s trousher legs that pats him/her on the head , as if they agree with any of his/her Pseudo comments. HaHa

There are more “ Yankee Doodle Dandies, hanging around this Church, than you might think.

You need to do a little research in this Church, so you know a little more about who you are addressing, ilanovitch. Have you read my Report of my Dera Visit of Oct. 2017? .

Finance Fraud accusations is not the only Scab of GSD’s GIHF Persona.

Jim Sutherland

Well, I guess that’s one way to look at it...

But here’s what I see:
Lesson 322 (ACIM)
“I can give up what was never real.”

My relationship with Gurinder, the outward form of the Master was never real. That’s what I learned from you.

My thinking that I see him everywhere—that wasn’t real.
My attachment to him—that wasn’t real.

You made that pretty clear. And it helped me let go.

You can’t have it both ways.

You see, ilanovitch, you don’t quite get it. He played more than his fair share. And just like you said—tough and soft—I won’t EVER let him hurt me again.

You should have seen this coming.

Then why does one need a Master that’s a GIHF? Doesn’t that just confuse things? I remember once in Meditation seeing Haziur and he asked me if I wanted a different Master. I thought it was a test so I said no. But this sounds so mystical doesn’t it it? So “old school” Sant Mat. Do you think Gurinder has ever seen his Master within? Or does he just think this is all a game? Maybe none of it is really real. To me the only real power I ever felt when I was a Satsangi was the incredible strength of Hazuur/Charan Singh calming me/calming the storm when I was at witts end not knowing what to do. If anything of Sant Mat was real, the only thing I can carry with me was the love and calm Hazuur gave me within. He knew the pain I felt, he knew what I was going through and it seemed to hurt him as much as it hurt me. A sanskara perhaps. His love was something I cannot explain or prove but it got me through, it helped me survive the heartache. A different Master? We’ll see what he has in store. Again, I seriously doubt Gurinder has ever seen Charan within. If he had, he would have received a swift smack. C’mon that’s funny...

Gurinder—I feel like we’re starting from the beginning here...

That’s why it’s so strange. And when I went to the Dera for the first time I saw Charan on the train sitting next to Gurinder. That was very odd actually. Not sure why Gurinder would have been on the train from Delhi to Beas. But it was my first trip to Dera (2013) and I was too occupied with the “trauma” of witnessing India’s poverty (and the train) for the first time. However, the sevadar who helped me get on the train with my bags kept staring at them at wouldn’t leave until the train started moving even though he had plenty of time to leave earlier. At first, I thought he was staring at these to men and stayed there because he was concerned about my safety. Lol

Like I said, I was too preoccupied with all the noises and sights and smells to even look at these guys—they were several seats in front of me. Then about an hour before arriving at Delhi I got really sleepy and asked one of the train employees to please let me know when we were about to arrive at Beas. I was the only Satsangi from Pusa road in that particular train car because my ticket was purchased late and I was afraid I’d fall asleep and wind up who-knows-where India.

The train car was really quiet at that point, it was late and a lot of passengers had gotten off already and it was finally very quiet. So, when I asked the train employee about Beas, someone else in the car heard me (and this where it gets weird) and came over to me, sat down beside me and started speaking loudly asking me if I was going to Beas... Dera. Then he showed me a picture on his phone of Baba Ji and said (loudly) “if God is living on this earth he lives at Beas... he gave me Naam” pointing at the picture. I was somewhat embarrassed by the whole thing and just wanted him to be quiet so for some strange reason I just pointed my head at the two men in the front. Thankfully that shut him up. But then he couldn’t stop looking at them and that’s when Gurinder/Baba Ji got up and walked to the back of the train. The man followed him and almost everyone in that train car started crying. Being my first trip to the Dera I thought, well this must be how he travels...

I could hear the man with Baba Ji (it feels weird to call him Gurinder in this particular story) talking to Baba Ji on his cell phone in Hindi but I could understand some of what he said in English. A few things... and then commenting about everyone with tears in their eyes.

Then one of the Satsangi’s from Pusa road came from another train car to get me (there were only a few of us... I think I arrived last minute that session). As grabbed my bags and we walked towards the front to join the Satsangis in the other car, I looked over at the gentleman and saw Maharaji. It was the most powerful moment of my entire life. I couldn’t forget it if I tried. His eyes were absolute love. He looked at me with such love. It was truly a gift. And then I realized that no one else could see him. He was leaning over to look at me but I could also see that nothing about him was showing to the other passengers.

Just talking about this reminds me how lovely and magical the path used to be to me. Feels like worlds away now.

I’m not sure why I wrote all that out. I guess it just left such a heavy imprint on me. As if to say, this is the path... this is the truth.

Or maybe he was wanting to warn me. 😂 (just kidding)

Meant to say “an hour before arriving at Beas” first or second paragraph.

We’re going to run out of comment space on this thread, I think...

Shoot, just lost a very long comment about seeing Gurinder and and Charan on the train and how the passengers reacted. Must have gone into the spam folder. We’ll see if it shows up later. Too long for me to retype now.

Initiated by Gurinder.

It’s hard to summarize... my first trip to Dera 2013, I bought my tickets late for the train from Delhi to Beas so ended up being in a train car without any of the other Satsangis. A sevadar helped me on the train and then stayed on for a good 15 or 20 minutes staring at these two men about four seats in front of me—they were at the very front of the train car. They were standing in front of us to the side a little before we even boarded the train and I noticed he stopped talking to me as much and started staring at them then as well.

It was the evening train and about an hour before reaching Beas, I was tired and afraid I’d fall asleep so I asked one of the train sevadars if he could let me know when we reached Beas.

Then, a man came over to me and spoke quite loudly considering how quiet the train car was at that point. He showed me a picture of Gurinder on his phone and said, “If God is living on this earth he lives at Beas”. I was embarrassed by how emotional and loud he was so for some strange reason I tilted my head towards the two men in the front. They were dressed exactly the same with their turbans and western suits. When he saw the men he didn’t say another word and just stared at them. I was relieved.

Then Gurinder got up from his seat next to other man and turned to where everyone in that train car could see him and walked to the end of the train car. The man sitting next to me followed him. Everyone on the train started crying. Just tears streaming down their faces. I didn’t realize at the time that he uses planes not trains so just thought this must happen a lot.

Not too long after, a Satsangi from another traincar came to help me with my bags and join the rest of the group in the next traincar. As I walked towards the front I looked over at the other man that had been sitting next to Gurinder. It was Charan. He looked at me and it was the most powerful moment of my life. It felt like he understood everything about me—such love and empathy without any words. At this point I was crying. But at that point I also realized that no one else could see him. Can’t explain it really. It was like I could see him but from a different angle he wasn’t visible.

Anyway, that’s my train story... from then on in the most extreme moments of hopelessness and fear—when I was feeling desperate because I could not find solace in Simran or praying to my Master, I would call out to Charan/Hazur and he would calm everything in an instant. He would calm the mental and emotional storm in a single second. Those moments were so powerful I can’t even begin to explain. Never before and never again from anyone/anything else will I experience something like that.

You know, even though part of me has pushed a lot of these memories back because I have so many questions about Sant Mat now, one thing seems to remain consistent. I’m aware of Great Master’s presence when I’m at the Dera. He doesn’t interfere with anything, he’s just there watching leaving everything to Hazur. And Hazur is watching, more involved but for the most part leaves everything to Gurinder.

For someone who seriously doubts Sant Mat these days it seems very strange even to me to type this out... I wish I could feel the way I did then... the innocence.

A Hindu American friend of mine who spent an almost unhealthy amount of time in meditation gave me a book on saints in the Punjab. It wasn’t an RSSB book but had a picture of Great Master. He said, here is a book with one of your masters. He said I’ve seen him (Great Master) in meditation and he’s very, very powerful. He said it it with such emphasis I believed him... believed what he saw was “real”.

There was a shell given as a gift to Great Master that is in the new “museum” at the Dera above the library. My husband and I were standing side by side looking at it. I was mesmerized by it thinking what painstaking effort it must have taken to carve his name into such a fragile shell. As we were standing side by side somehow a man came right in between us. As he was walking towards us I thought he was a westerner but as he got closer to us I realized he was Indian and wearing Indian clothing—a shawl he was wearing stood out. He didn’t move us or touch us, he just some how managed to be standing in between us when I was telling my husband that shell was a gift given to Great Master, the man didn’t say a word, he just smiled and nodded. My husband made a remark about the man and how unusual he was. Anyway, I think the main story there was about the shell. What it represents.

@ Sonya,

Enjoyed your story. Message from my email inbox this morning which struck a chord...

"Visualise your highest self. Start showing up as her."

Hi Jen,

Good advice. Thanks 😊

Hi Sonya!

When we are in love, all kinds of magic can happen. And it seems that the universe has a plan, and we are witnessing something wonderful, and special in each impossible occurrence, each impossible event. And we are special too, because we are part of it. Because it happened to us. Somehow, we are now part of that higher miracle, also, then. We have been elevated from the dirt to touch divinity, if only for a moment. But that moment can last forever, so long as we remember it.

These miracle stories give us hope that there is something more, and that there are superhumans we can finally trust to take us somewhere further, somewhere greater than this place.

That is the end of a long journey. Like falling in love with our spouse. It seems it was meant to be.

So, our love, that colors our perceptions, that gives us such experiences, who can say it isn't sacred?

It is the most incredible thing a human being can experience. And it is so very, very superior to any other moments in what is generally an unending series of disappointments, spotted by worldly events that hardly compensate for the rest.

These events are our treasure, they are sacred. And they are entirely subjective.

We will have to hold them, like a very powerful and mature adult, in one hand, while we hold the weight of objective reality in the other.

It is a waste of time arguing one over the other.

But how can you devote yourself to an individual who may have done something less than honorable?

This is the moment we must confront that objective reality and that subjective reality, and honor both.

Because ugly, objective truths are no less miraculous than the ecstatic ones. Yet love is superior to them all, and we can protect that love by accepting our duty to reality also.

"1 When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put the ways of childhood behind me."
1 Corinthians 13:11

Hi Sonya,

I know what you are going through. I was initiated over 50 years ago and still stick to the principles and am actually grateful to the Sant Mat path but it took many years to come to the realisation that I no longer needed to follow a Master. Also have no need to blame anyone, every thought, action, belief or understanding is entirely up to me. I like Zen and enjoy reminding myself of emptiness, nothingness and letting go and just focusing on being present as an observer of self. Be strong sister and have faith in yourself :)

Hi Spence,

I enjoyed and appreciate your comments as usual. Yes, love is blind... it was sort of an age of innocence the first 7 years I was initiated. During those years I only saw Gurinder a few times in the US and always ended up sitting in the back. So, I had no real understanding of him or any sort of relationship with him other than my meditation and my beliefs based on RSSB books and teachings.

My first trip to the Dera in 2013 was so bizarre and weird and wonderful all at the same time. I got to see him more as a person in a more intimate setting during evening meeting. Love certainly changes the way you see things. You start to witness “miracles”. It was a very difficult trip too. Kind of turned my world upside down and made me start to question what I believed—sort of a reality check within the surreal reality of the Dera. I truly felt like I’d landed on Mars. Everything felt so foreign. It was all very unsettling and I thought to myself, well I don’t need to do this again.

But the day before I left something happened and for the first time ever I felt such close affection for Gurinder as the Master. I don’t even know what that thing was. It was just a moment where I felt great empathy for him.

I’ve said it often on this blog—ACIM gives me a lot strength and encouragement. I’m somewhat new to it and the text is over 1,200 pages but oddly enough you can sum up all of those pages into a sentence: Everything around you is created by your perception and you should always try to look on every being in God’s creation through the eyes of love because we’re all equal in God’s eyes.

You can substitute “God” for Love or Higher Power if it’s more comfortable.

The word Miracles in a Course in Miracles is widely misunderstood by anyone who hasn’t read the book. Miracles are defined in the book as what happens when you change your perspective to love. It has nothing to do with magic or getting what you think you want. It’s all about the Miracle of Love and the power love has to change our hearts and minds by changing our perspective to a more loving one, seeing the world differently to affect more positive outcomes in our relations with others and with God. It also has all the mystical teachings of Sant Mat and eastern philosophies. It talks about this world being an illusion and that we create illusions within the illusion. It uses the word insane quite frequently to describe the mind that has bought into the great illusion of life. It also teaches that we are not our bodies (on a certain level) and we have to use our rational sane mind to overcome our egos. Our higher mind can lead us to connect with who and what we truly are—Spirit. And the same spirit connects us all. The text is very clear on its terminology to avoid vague understanding and misinterpretations And yet at the same time the text is written in such a way that it’s hard to understand unless you can first accept the basic concept that the ego separates us from God/Spirit/our true essence and our ego is what creates fear and separation from each other and our Higher Selves. God and the ego are diametrically opposed. In Sant Mat terms it would be like ego (Negative power) God is Master. According to ACIM only the ego attacks and it does so out of fear. It encourages using the rational mind combined with inner reflection/meditation to recognize the results of the ego. To see how the ego makes enemies, creates fears, makes us sick both mentally and physically, and separates even further from our true selves which is really just love. It doesn’t say to blindly ignore what’s wrong in the world. It says to acknowledge it and try to act out in the most loving way possible given the circumstances.

I’m really trying to practice what I believe now because the anger has completely burned me out. It causes depression and does nothing for my personal and spiritual growth.

I agree, we can’t follow blindly. I don’t really know Gurinder. I don’t know who he is in his personal life. I haven’t personally witnessed his role in running the Dera or in business. I don’t know if he’s innocent or guilty. And if it were my job as a lawyer or judge or attorney to look into the matters more closely then obviously I would. But for me, where I am right now, I can’t keep attacking him. If I do then I’ve let my ego take over.

Don’t get me wrong, I’m not judging other people for voicing their opinions one way or the other. I have no idea what role they have to play in this.

I just know that for me, focusing on it only makes me angry and then depressed.

And, yes, he was extremely harsh with me and I don’t believe it was loving or constructive. With my rational mind I can say it was his ego mind that attacked me. And with my rational mind I can choose to look upon him with love and acknowledge that he too is part of God. Essentially the incident strengthened my resolve to search for truth. But search for a higher truth beyond the insanity of this world. There is a “truth” played out in the Illusion and then there is the real Truth. I’d rather focus on the real Truth and leave the “truth” of this illusion play itself out in court.

I loved him deeply. I love him still, but my true love is Truth itself... which is an all encompassing love if Love if you listen to it in the quiet of your mind.

Gosh, Spence! it wasn’t my intention to go on and on about that. It just came out.

Thanks for your balanced argument and kindness.

Oh, and it says that guilt is bullshit. But that’s the great mystical teaching of the book covered by the other 1,199 pages. It’s too complex for me to explain without writing another War and Peace comment. 😉

Thank you. ❤️

Hi Jen,

Thanks! I’ll be honest I really don’t know a great deal about all the different types of Buddhism even though I’ve been surrounded by different kinds of Buddhist friends for the last 20 years of my life. I even started meditating for the first time at the Shambala center when I lived in Boulder, Colorado. That was actually the first Shambala center established in the US. I’ll read about it.

Thanks for the encouragement. 🙏

Hi Sonya
Love is the every only God

"love is the every only god

who spoke this earth so glad and big
even a thing all small and sad
man may his mighty briefness dig

for love beginning means return
seas who could sing so deep and strong

on queerying wave will whitely yearn
from each last shore and come home young

so truly perfectly the skys
by merciful love whispered were,
completes its brightness with your eyes

any illimitable star"
e.e. Cummings

Remember the sea that sings!

Return upon the sea that sings
And come home young!

Hi Spence,

Love the beautiful poetry! Thanks so much for sharing!!

A few lines from the poem, 'Heaven’s Gift':

"No one can rob infinity.

No one can take away from everything.
Its very wholeness is a guarantee
It is complete forever. There can be
No loss left unrestored before it comes.

No one can lessen love. It is itself
The Great Restorer. It can but return
All that is taken to itself. It knows
No loss, no limit and no lessening."

Heaven can only give.

--Helen Schucman

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