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March 28, 2019

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The FIR, or First Information Report submitted by the new Religare board in December is the first step in all criminal proceedings. It leads to criminal charges, which is what happened today, and then the full investigation. The criminal investigation wing, by formally charging the brothers and Godhwani, has established that the complaint has merit.

What was an investigation into companies is now a deeper investigation into individuals.

And those individuals are a broader list than the Singh brothers and Godhwani.

The document details how the shell companies, such as Modland Wears, knowingly transferred funds illegally to individuals for a fee. And so those individuals, the FIR states, should be included in the criminal investigation.

In summary the FIR claims and provides detailed evidence that
1. The loans were illegal,
2.The cover up through rotating checks, was extensive, and made with the full and knowing participation of the shell company leaders who earned a fee for their participation
3.that the total is over 2,000 crore Rs.
4. That the recipients of the loans should be included in the investigation as participants in the "conspiracy" and the "theft" of these "stolen funds".... Terms from the FIR.

We already know that Gurinder family and associates, along with the Singhs and Godwani, were the recipients of these "stolen funds".

As a follower I am saddened by all of this news. Brian and Spence I hope you can understand how one must feel. All I hope for is something that helps make sense of all of this. I understand what you are doing and this is protected by free speech in this country. But at the same time I hope you can understand what one might feel. No one here should try to sway anyone but let’s let the facts speak for themselves as they come along. I truly hope that GSD/RSSB comes forward with something.

Thinker, all Spence and I have been doing is reporting facts as they're currently understood. Sure, because he and I are more familiar with the Singh brothers/RSSB financial saga than most people are, we're able to frame those facts in a way that might seem disturbing to devotees of the guru.

But RSSB teachings put a lot of emphasis on sat, truth. So speaking the truth is never wrong. Nor is opening one's mind to truth. I realize that the truth can hurt, especially when the truth is that Gurinder Singh Dhillon has been acting badly -- not at all like an ethical human being should, much less a spiritual leader.

Just understand that neither Spence nor I are coming up with these facts on our own. We're just passing on what's being reported by the India financial press, along with information that comes from RSSB insiders that I've previously shared on this blog.

Bit by bit, story by story, it appears more likely that Gurinder Singh Dhillon and his family, along with associates such as Sunil Godhwani, are going to be held legally accountable for their actions. Maybe it will turn out that their financial dealings were fine, all legal. I doubt it, but it's possible.

In that case, I'll be pleased to embrace the truth. I just hope that RSSB devotees are equally pleased to accept the truth if it turns out to show that the supposedly "perfect living master" isn't at all perfect -- which, in my opinion, is already obvious.

Thinker, I know where you're coming from. As time progresses and these investigations begin pulling in more facts, data and the flow of the monies, it will become more and more apparent what really transpired.

Will Mr. Dhillon take the hit on this? I have my doubts. Others will end up taking the blame, unless they pull a "Malvinder" and try to save their respective assets. Time will tell.

Again, it's a sad state of affairs, and as Brian has mentioned, we have to deal with the facts as they present themselves. We have to be open to the truth as it presents itself.

Hello Thinker
there is much to fathom in all of this. Navigating the disappointment is part of it. At the same time we can avoid moralistic judgement per se without surrendering our ethics. Legal and other processes aside it is bizarre that a 'guru' has indulged in what seems like such money grubbing power-plays. It doesn't square off against the job description IMO. We perhaps need to stay open minded to the legal ramifications and Brian admits there may be none. However the ethical and philosophical problems remain. Just exactly how does playing fast and loose with business deals sit with the role of spiritual mentor? This is the disappointment and dismay right there.
I have remarked several times on this blog that IMO 'true believers' will remain untouched by all of this. Worst case scenario and unlikely IMO is GSD is put under house arrest/prison. Faithful would still think this was persecution of the Saints as has happened throughout history!

I owe a religare policy, since2012 ,I want to know will this case affects policy holders interest , should we exit, or continue.

I've followed Indian journalism on RSSB for several years now. One thing is consistent. RSSB doesn't comment. This lack of response by RSSB doesn't help to refute the published allegations. This is a big reason for why news stories about RSSB are invariably one-sided. Indian media presents the accusations, but never the official rebuttal to those allegations. Perhaps there's bias in the India media against RSSB, and this contributes to the one-sided coverage. On the other hand, there's only so much an investigative journalist can do if the party accused of wrongdoing refuses to say anything.

In reviewing what we actually know about the Fortis scandal, we can all agree that there was poor financial stewardship by the Singh brothers. Then we can theorize about the actual cause of this poor money management.

The most ambitious theory yet posted here is that Gurinder Singh is himself the mastermind for all the dubious loans, and even for creating and managing Fortis. And also, that Gurinder has organized top-level satsangis to issue death threats to any0one who gets in his way.

Opposing this is the theory that Gurinder must have been an innocent and even unknowing bystander to whatever unethical activity may have occurred.

I'm hoping that Indian justice gives us a more precise answer with a court ruling. But having just witnessed what happened in Chicago with that actor, I have to be realistic and depend on actual facts and actual evidence to make my own decisions about Gurinder's guilt, or lack thereof.

Jay - what happened in Chicago ?

Hi Jay:

We know that fraud was committed since the SEBI has already concluded that. We know that 2,000 - 5,000 crore went "missing".

Now the Criminal Divisions wing, after having received the FIR from the new Religare Board, has chosen to indict Godwani and the Singhs, as well as go after the other "unnamed associates" (the term used in the FIR), including the recipients of the fraudulent loans.

What was a regulatory issue, has become an established fact of Fraud, and now is a criminal investigation that includes all participants.

I would suggest that Baba Ji make a public statement about repaying his loans.

The Religare FIR is highly aggressive. It includes terms I don't usually see in such a document:
"Scam...
organized criminal conspiracy....
crime....
theft....
No actual intent to repay....
scheme....
fraud....
deception....
cheated....
misappropriated....
siphoned....
colluded....
willful defaults....
concerted efforts to not report....
astronomical amount....
accounting reporting was mischievously brought down....
round-tripping of funds....
with the intention never to repay....
ccriminal breach of trust....
defrauded....
documents created dishonestly to give a false impression....
money laundering....
forgery....
perpetrators of large scale financial fraud.... "

The FIR was written to put people in jail. When you steal over a billion dollars from other aggressive investors, wall street tends to go that way.

It claims the participants knew the loans were never intended for repayment: That the participants actively and knowingly participated in this "scam" their word...

There are stockholder interests in recovering the thousands of lost crore, pressuring for this to go to a criminal prosecution. Why go that far? Because to do less puts the responsibility for the losses on the shoulders of the Religare board and destabilizes the Indian stock market.

Further, it places a burden on the Supreme Court as the visibility of this case grows, to establish that India has a functioning system of justice.

So, there are already vested interests to support the most severe criminal prosecution, and that will likely include the biggest beneficiaries of these fraudulent loans, the folks who received them and didn't repay: Gurindar's family, the Singhs and Godwani.

So, if you're out there Baba Ji, just acknowledge these as loans now, and your willingness to develop an agreeable payment plan. We love you and will help.

But if you remain silent, these folks are going to put as many people in jail as possible. They are responsible to demonstrate to the shareholders and the market place and the judicial system and the public that investing in the India stock market, or in medical tourism, is not handing your hard earned money into the hands of thieves, without any real protections.

So as the interests for justice grow, and the momentum of this case is now turning criminal and severe...as per the FIR and the indictment yesterday....time is running out to make a "gentleman's agreement"...


So, if you're out there Baba Ji, just acknowledge these as loans now, and your willingness to develop an agreeable payment plan. We love you and will help.

Hi Spence,

As mentioned several times, there are plausible reasons to defer any
statement whether on advice of atty or not. However well-intentioned
any such statement is, it's not a substitute for the careful, deliberative,
and comprehensive discovery process of a court. Uncovering all the
facts is critical to assessing culpability and a fair adjudication.

Further, speaking prematurely may be sensationalized by the press,
damage innocent parties, and prejudice jurors. Imagine the impact
of a tabloid headline "Will GSD take the rap for family? Rumors of a
plea deal circulate". Or, think of other targeted defendants who may
be guilty as hell, claiming "My only crime was trusting the Guru. I never
knew He was such a crook."

There's also a cryptic phrase by GSD to Malva ("Family Agreement"?)
about "settling accounts". Again, there's no way to assess its meaning
and significance outside a court with testimony under oath. Perhaps,
making good on all the loans has already been discussed among
GSD and the Singhs but now there are disagreements about who
pays and how much. Any "mea culpa" by GSD would be absurd in
that case since all members aren't agreeing to their moral and
financial responsibility.

I agree it'd be ideal if GSD could make a statement. But the
"opportune time" He spoke of may only be in court for the reasons
outlined.

Dungeness, it's important to keep in mind that seemingly most, if not all, of the money "loaned" to the Dhillon family came as a result of fraud and criminal conspiracy. So almost certainly the ship has sailed on the Dhillon's being able to repay Malvinder.

As the Religare complaint says, the money that went to shell companies controlled at the time by the Dhillon family and RSSB associates came from a public corporation, Religare. Now Religare wants to trace who got the money, and they also want their money back.

Yes, Gurinder Singh wanted to make this a family affair, settled by a family agreement. But now that the Supreme Court, the Securities and Exchange Board of India, and the Economic Offences Wing of the Delhi Police have gotten involved, it's hard to see how this can be handled by an agreement between the Dhillons and Malvinder.

At one point I thought Malvinder might withdraw his criminal complaint against Dhillon and the guru's associates if he got his money back. However, now it doesn't seem this would let the guru off the hook even if Malvinder wanted that to happen. Religare doesn't care that the guru is considered to be divine. They just want their money back, and the people who engaged in the criminal conspiracy to be punished.

Hi Dungeness
It is never the wrong time to state clearly to investigators one's knowledge and participation in what has been proven to be fraud.

It's the responsible thing to do.

Dungeness, I completely agree with your post. Gurinder is at this point legally unable to make public comments on an open investigation.

Hi Jay
You wrote
"Gurinder is at this point legally unable to make public comments on an open investigation."

Can you please cite the law in India that supports your claim. Are you suggesting some gag order has been set by the court?

And that would require that a court had indicted Gurinder as a suspect or established he is a material witness to the crimes.

I don't think either of those things has happened yet.

Please share the basis of your claim.

Spence.--- I agree with Dungeness's argument on this thread for why Gurinder shouldn't make a public comment at this point in time.

I take it that you and Brian have a firm conviction for what Gurinder is precisely responsible for in this Fortis scandal. I don't share your conviction. I feel that at this point, we see fraud, but we're guessing as to who precisely is responsible for it. As I and Dungeness have previously pointed out, this matter needs to go to court for a full forensic financial examination before any firm conclusions can be drawn.


It is never the wrong time to state clearly to investigators one's knowledge and participation in what has been proven to be fraud.

Spence, I'm afraid I have to disagree for reasons already put
forth. GSD has clarified that he will make a statement at an
"opportune time" which could well suggest legal advice to
not make public statements and to speak only if deposed by
investigators in the presence of his counsel.

If he's targeted as a criminal suspect too, GSD should have the
same legal rights as others. Is there any compelling reason to
think that he should ignore his attorney, or waive his rights, or
potentially damage his case and/or others in his family by
speaking prematurely?

Is there any suggestion of criminality or shadiness in GSD's own
background to justify a rush to judgment? Can one confidently
make the leap that he's guilty and needs to confess his sins now?
Be sure without a shred of doubt he's being disingenuous or lying
when he promises to speak at an opportune time?

If not, I think it's fairer to see what unfolds. No matter how awful
or un-guru-ly the crimes.


Hi Dungeness
You wrote
"If he's targeted as a criminal suspect too, GSD should have the
same legal rights as others. Is there any compelling reason to
think that he should ignore his attorney, or waive his rights, or
potentially damage his case and/or others in his family by
speaking prematurely?"

Yes, Dungeness. To the extent he has knowledge of the criminal activities involved and those responsible. He has the responsibility of every citizen to come forward, even at personal risk, to aid the authorities.

Your rights to protect yourself end at the point where doing so aids and protects criminal activity. The March 28 Supreme Court deadline has passed and apparently Baba Ji has done nothing to aid in the recovery of the stolen funds. Secrecy at this point, if he has such knowledge, is actually accessory to the crimes. In other words, it's committing another crime.

If Donors of ANY , Not for Profit Organisations, donated money, services, equipment, to either the Organisation or its Leaders in the past, and either declared the Donations to the Tax Collectors as tax deductions on their own, earned income, ( as we American Tax Payers are legally able to do), then does any one think, or imagine, if we asked for our Donations back, from the Red Cross, or RSSB, as some that gave money to Gurinder, and are now calling it Loans, would be Legally forced to return Donations?
Consider that Donations have been filling the RSSB Coffers and Donation Boxes for over a hundred years, even including Entire Estates Willed to RSSB. So, why would Gurinder even consider returning ANY monies ever sent to him or RSSB? I imagine the loudest Whiners would be those who have donated the most, and now feel taken advantage of, because of how suddenly, the Curtain has been withdrawn and Toto has been revealed.
Jim

Loans versus donations...they are different Jim.


The March 28 Supreme Court deadline has passed and apparently Baba Ji has done nothing to aid in the recovery of the stolen funds. Secrecy at this point, if he has such knowledge, is actually accessory to the crimes. In other words, it's committing another crime.

Spence, I'm no apologist for anyone involved but it's at least
conceivable legally GSD had no personal involvement in the
commission of the actual crimes. It's an open question whether
he knew of or abetted them. But, if he didn't, even after press
reports, he may have only known the broad strokes. It's also
possible -even probable- those involved woulda clammed up
or blamed others even if GSD asked them to come clean.

GSD may have already urged those behind the crimes to divulge
everything to the authorities voluntarily or turn themselves in.
At what point would he serve justice by reporting his suspicions or
poisoning the well with dubious assertions or outright lies others
may have told him?

The point is it's a murky legal quagmire especially if GSD is likely a
probable target himself. It gets even stickier if there's family
involved. Does spousal privilege become germane? In some
countries I believe immediate family can't be compelled to
testify against their kin. A terrible example, if I accurately recall
a TV documentary, was Josef Mengele's son who visited his
father in Argentina but, at least under German custom and law,
couldn't be prosecuted for not informing police.

I'll accept people's doubts about Gurinder's involvement and possible innocence insofar as being the actual orchestrator and facilitator of fraud, conspiracy, theft or whatever. Maybe he was given bad info and simply taking money he thought was on the up and up. Fine.I don't believe it, but I don't know either.

But he is still guilty according to the rules of his spiritual organization and can't be considered a sant sat guru if you're using the criteria from their own books. Simply having such a close association and that much drive to acquire wealth is a no no. Any of us who were initiated and fawning over this man at any point should really reassess ourselves and our psychological state to see what we're missing and why we thought we needed a post-Sikh savior so badly that we'd do zero due diligence in finding out about him.

Then again, I'm speaking without the Punjabi name generator dudes sage truths right now. Where is that guy? Manmeet, Prabhjeet, Akalpreet, Inderjeet? Whatever his spreadsheet-created name was, he knows literally everything. All the most important people. The trendiest entheogens. The hottest buddhist chanting techniques. What a guy.

@s,....perhaps Gurinder and RSSB have been receiving Kiva Loans, not meant to be donations. Now its Pay Back time.
https://www.kiva.org/blog/loan-vs-donation-the-importance-of-semantics

@Arjuna,....You are a Killer Warrior,....i.e., you are trained to seek and destroy, kill or be killed. If your Team is sent to the border where both Pakastan and Indian Armies are posturing, right now, moving Tanks and Armour there, will you be a Flesh & Blood Warrior, or a Spiritual Warrior?

Spiritual Warriors wrestle not against flesh , blood and bones, but with spiritual entites in High places.

If you encounter a Pakistani Soldier, with his AK-47 locked and loaded, aimed at your Third Eye, what will be you first line of defense? Chanting the 5 Name Simran to see if he will vanish,...or unloading your 30 round Bananna Magazines on him, followed up with a Mortor round for his Buddies?

Jim


https://www.rssb.org/news26.html

@ Jim - I repeat the names will they work?

For all those screaming for persecution of the guru, did you even read this article link posted by Ashok Kumar or do you only look for the negative articles to boost your egos.

Excerpt from "How the Singh brothers became victims of a realty play" RSSB Science of the Soul

"When ET Prime contacted RSSB, its secretary, JC Sethi, sent an e-mailed reply: “Baba Ji was anointed as the ‘Spiritual Head’ of Radha Soami Satsang Beas in 1990. When he shifted to Beas (in 1990), the situation was a bit complex because he had been out of country (in Spain) for quite some time. At that time, Dr. Parvinder Singh, father of Mr Malvinder Mohan Singh and Mr Shivinder Mohan Singh, was their biggest source of support. However, Dr Parvinder Singh’s unfortunate and untimely demise caused a big vacuum, with lots of external pressures vying for control of the companies. So, Mr Malvinder Mohan Singh and Mr Shivinder Mohan Singh, who were quite young at that time, turned to Baba Ji for help and guidance. In 2011, Baba Ji’s health started deteriorating and he took a back seat, during which time, understandably Mr Sunil Godhwani came to the forefront and became their active adviser.

In 2016, as his health improved gradually, Baba Ji got back to his spiritual responsibilities actively, but physical weakness left him with little time and energy for anything else. At that time, he even thought of stepping down and retiring from his position.

It needs to be appreciated that our entire organisation is run on faith and trust and till today, Baba Ji refuses to point a finger at anyone. He gives advice to all those who seek it, but does not get involved in their day-to-day lives because he believes that life is all about making choices; and each one has to make his own choice. As Master, he can advise, but he cannot make a choice for anyone, because one is bound by the choices one makes (The Law of Karma); and therefore, we all have to accept responsibility for our own actions.

An e-mail seeking comments sent to GYS group’s official e-mail ID did not elicit any response.

To the question if the fiasco has complicated equations with the Dhillon family, the RHC spokesperson says, "There is no fallout with Dhillon family. Mr Godhwani was managing the financial transactions of both (Dhillon family and us — Malvinder Singh and Shivinder Singh) as he was part of our family ecosystem and had our full faith and trust. Upon realising the mismanagement by him, we both disassociated from him and are in the process of taking necessary corrective actions/steps."

Jen, the story on the RSSB web site is from July 2018. So it's old news that's been superseded by new news.

The SEBI investigation report came after this story, as did Malvinder's criminal complaint against the RSSB guru, and Religare's criminal complaint against Sunil Godhwani and the Singh brothers, plus other unnamed co-conspirators.

So don't rely on a story that RSSB wants people to read. Note that they haven't published other stories that put Gurinder Singh Dhillon and his family in a much worse light.


e RHC spokesperson says, "There is no fallout with Dhillon family. Mr Godhwani was managing the financial transactions of both (Dhillon family and us — Malvinder Singh and Shivinder Singh) as he was part of our family ecosystem and had our full faith and trust. Upon realising the mismanagement by him, we both disassociated from him and are in the process of taking necessary corrective actions/steps."

Thanks Ashok and Jen for mentioning RSSB's news release.

While not at all exculpatory, it certainly gives a broader picture
and a bit clearer view of the players who were involved.

Now the investigation and criminal complaints, including an
alleged death threat from GSD's attorney as well as one
directed at an actor, elevate the gravity to a new level.

But, I think it's wrong to draw inferences from any news story
about who's guilty. There's a whole buncha potential suspects,
financial sleight-of-hand, some of it rather murky and non-trivial,
plus enough Trumpian level deflection on both sides to make
heads spin.

No matter how much the CofC flocks clamor for a verdict --
regardless of which way they bleat-- the bailiff must herd them
back into their pens and cry "there will be order in the court!",

The provlem is simply the recipient of the loans, who needs to pay them back.

Is a simple as that.

If someone offers you money as a loan that is fraudulently and falsely produced, essentially theft, that is their responsibility, even if you advised them to do so.

But the moment that check is cashed into your bank account, you are not only part of the Karma, but its cause.

It's the prime who eat the slaughtered chickens, and pay for them, who incur the majority of the Karma.

And the fact that family members took leadership positions in a number of shell companies sharing the same storefront address, to siphon funds fraudulently to you, then you and your family are involved in fraud.

It's pretty simple.


And the fact that family members took leadership positions in a number of shell companies sharing the same storefront address, to siphon funds fraudulently to you, then you and your family are involved in fraud.

Yes, overwhelming evidence but, because of the intricacy of the
fraud and the web of "suspects" involved, this needs the careful,
measured analysis of the court.

Almost certainly in my armchair opinion that's why GSD has made
no public statement - likely on the advice of attorney. Any "mea
culpa" could cloud the complicity of others by giving them a
plausible defense ("Your Honor, GSD admits guilt. I was only a bit
player doing it all on a wink 'n nod from Him").

Aside from giving other potential bad actors a pass, GSD's heartfelt
"mea culpa" could also create the perception of his own personal
guilt and damage RSSB's reputation when in actuality it was say,
Godhwanit or others in GSD's family or even the Singhs, who made
the decision to commit fraud on their own hoping the realty market
would turn before it was discovered.

I believe this is all likely to be revealed in the course of time in the
proper setting: a court of law. Feel free to bleat, rant, cat-call
from the peanut gallery when the bailiff's on break.

Hi Dungeness:

The mechanism of "Gurinder's attorney might advise" cannot be an excuse to encourage less than responsible behavior. Most good attorneys would not advise silence when deadlines have passed.

They would encourage Gurinder to approach those he owed directly, first, and pro-actively engage in a negotiation for a suitable payment schedule. That attorney would offer to be their representative in those negotiations.

The earlier he does this, the more leverage he will have in the negotiation. The longer he waits, the more visible his secrecy becomes, as though he has something to hide. That gives his creditors more leverage to weigh in with additional penalty, higher interest rates, and threat of further legal action, etc.

If he is really innocent, his attorney would advice a public statement, with full disclosure to the effect that he is innocent and will cooperate with law enforcement agencies fully. Or that he made some bad choices, but all within the law, and wishes to work out a reasonable plan for payment. These are standard practices.

Only a dysfunctional or disreputable attorney would advise doing nothing. That's how criminal investigations get their legs. And that is how Malvinder and Shivinder will likely wind up in jail. Gurinder's silence is placing them under continuing scrutiny. But that is self-destructive, since they are linked to him. The loans all pour one way, like rivers into an ocean. And so, if India law has any foundation, that will pour down upon him. Then he will be responsible not only for his own actions, but for unjustly standing by while Malvinder and Shivinder took the full responsibility not only for their crimes, but his.


Silence at this time, when so much fraud has happened, is not a good strategy legally, ethically or karmically. IMHO :)


If he is really innocent, his attorney would advice a public statement, with full disclosure to the effect that he is innocent and will cooperate with law enforcement agencies fully.

Hi Spence,

I'm not an attorney either but I think a reputable attorney may have advised
silence nevertheless for reasons I mentioned earlier. If perchance the atty's
already reached out via back channel to creditors, his action will speak
volumes. To a creditor, that will mean far more than any public mea culpa.
At this point, can anyone be sure he hasn't...


Only a dysfunctional or disreputable attorney would advise doing nothing.
That's how criminal investigations get their legs. And that is how Malvinder
and Shivinder will likely wind up in jail. Gurinder's silence is placing them
under continuing scrutiny.

Hm, how so... unless GSD confesses he himself was the mastermind and
they were dupes. Is this an implicit hint that GSD knew all along what his
nephews, sons, wife, Godhwani et al were up to?

I can imagine a scenario -whether out of embarrassment or guilt- bad
actors chose to withhold details from GSD in the hope he wouldn't find
out. Maybe they decided sinning temporarily would give the realty
market a chance to rebound. Desperate people throw "Hail Mary's".

,
But [silence] is self-destructive, since they are linked to him. Then he will be
responsible not only for his own actions, but for unjustly standing by while
Malvinder and Shivinder took the full responsibility not only for their crimes,
but his.

But, Godhwani and GSD's wife and sons were also in the "crime family"
suspect list. Should he speak for them? For Godhwanit? Did he know all
the details? Again, this is a criminal complaint now with accusations
already flying between a number of suspects.

The details are murky. Who ya gonna believe? Whadda ya do in a mess
like this one? "Leave it to the court," I can imagine an atty saying, "and
don't presume you know how to protect yourself. Maintain radio silence
in a legal skirmish. t's wise to heed my advice. Even for GIHF's."

He'll continue: "Silence is often the best tactic. Let bloggers and
armchair atty's opine about your guilt. They'll rant and rave that the
SOB is guilty and damn him for his silence. Accuse him of throwing
his near and dear under the bus."

"In fact, they haven't the slightest clue, and for that precise reason,
it's best to remain silent. Fools can the most dangerous actors in
the entire drama."


Silence at this time, when so much fraud has happened, is not a good strategy legally, ethically or karmically. IMHO :)


Many have been hurt. In the end, it'll be the actions of those
involved in wrongdoing and how they try to make amends
that count. More than all the words in the world ever wiil :)

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