RSSB guru's shady financial dealings were known on this blog 5-9 years ago

Last year I shared 27,000 words worth of comments left on this blog by "Tara," someone who had an up close and personal view of both Gurinder Singh Dhillon (photo below) and the RSSB organization prior to them becoming disillusioned by what they saw, which led to this person leaving the RSSB fold.

As noted in the post, "Devastating criticism of Gurinder Singh Dhillon by a RSSB insider," the comments were written between 2010 and 2014. That was five to nine years ago, before the RSSB guru's massive questionable loans and alleged criminality came to light in the Indian financial press.

Defenders of the guru go to great lengths to excuse his inexcusable behavior.

In hopes their eyes can be opened by reading what someone wrote about him considerably before the current scandals have come to light, below I've copied in some of the comments from "Tara" that related to Gurinder Singh Dhillon's involvement in companies with ties to the Singh brothers. Other comments in the 2018 post are equally disturbing in various ways.

I've boldfaced passages that struck me as being of particular interest. 

This comment is a reply to the sender of the email that Brian has posted above - July 20, 2010 at 8:00pm. Sender, please excuse me if at any point you find my tone offensive. SENDER says - In your post ' RSSB's ties to Religare mix money and spirituality... ' what proof do you have that the RSSB Guru ( Baba Ji ) literally runs the company ? That he makes all the important decisions and spends a considerable amount of time driving the business ? And if he is making millions for his family and kids, is that such a big crime ? In America we do that, we call it capitalism.

Reply - I hope you know that the Guru and his family are the largest shareholders of the company : Religare. The business model was conceived by Gurinder, and the Singh brothers are just a front-face of the company. In the second quarter of 2009, some members of the Religare top-brass understood that ' orders ' were coming not from the CEO but from a ' higher source ' and that the CEO was nothing but a pawn in the hands of a ' Guru ' who was taking all the decisions - but was actually incognito.

They soon discovered that a shareholder by the name of ' Gurpreet Dhillon ' who was tucked away in the London office was actually the son of the leader of a large spiritual sect. A little more inquiry lead to further details that uncovered Gurinder Singh Dhillon of RSSB as the founder and ' hidden ' head-honcho of Religare. ( How the leader of a spiritual sect managed to set up and drive a billion dollar company is another issue, one that I'm not going to talk about at the moment. )

Now, lets talk about Charlie's Angels. The CEO of Religare Enterprises Ltd. is an initiate named Mr. Sunil Godhwani - the personal treasurer and right-hand man of the Guru. He is also the Guru's long-time friend. Closed-door meetings are often held at Mr. Sunil Godhwani's farmhouse in New Delhi and the Guru is constantly in touch with him on the phone when they're apart. ( Even the chauffeurs know about this ! )

Mr. Godhwani's residence is the Guru's home for all ' unofficial ' visits into the capital. How do I know this ? A close family has a relative who works for Religare, and I'm good friends with people who are well connected with the ' inner circle ' members. This information has also been confirmed by a dozen well known people from the Indian financial sector.

You're talking about capitalism ? This is not capitalism, this is a big guerilla coup ! Usually, there's always something shady when someone is hiding something, and your ' Baba Ji ' clearly has a lot to hide. Otherwise, why hasn't he come out in the open ? Why is this something that needs to be rationalized ?

SENDER says - You've heard of Rev. Joel Osteen, I'm sure, http://www.joelosteen.com or maybe seen his weekly TV programs. He is a Christian minister, and spiritual leader from Houston, Texas. I'm sure he's very savvy when it comes to business and making money, and there's no doubt in my mind that he's a multimillionaire. I'm sure his kids are millionaires too, thanks to Joel. His books have been on the NY Times best selling author list - many times. He's rolling in money !

Reply - I doubt if Joel's bestsellers would be describing him as a GIHF and he probably not handing out ' rennet free cheese ' lists to his faithful.

SENDER says - My question to you is this - Does it spiritually matter that Joel Osteen is making big money for his family and kids and still running a big Church like Lakewood ? I'm sure he has lots of insider trading tips from his Texan buddies and Christian associates too. That's called networking, and we all do it.

Reply - Does it spiritually matter... ? Sorry, but I think your idea of morality can do with some kindergarden basics, seems like you missed ' ethics ' class in school.

SENDER says - Yet, when an eastern Master like Baba Ji does the same thing, we are quick to blast him and criticize him. We think that the eastern Guru should be in sandals, simple, poor, and his family should be poor too. Why the double standards ?

Reply - I do not want my spiritual Master to be poor, but I think I'd expect him to practice what he preaches. Gurinder Singh's business operations are a clear departure from the teachings of RS Sant Mat. I think your ' Baba Ji ' is the one who has double standards - he talks about detachment, but silently runs a billion dollar company.

SENDER says - Anyhow, I'm sure Baba Ji and his family are giving lots of money to help run the Dera, and all the centers he has around the world. Its not cheap to run these places. I know that I stayed at the Dera for a month once and didn't have to pay a dime for the room and board.

Reply - That is totally incorrect. Dera is a self-sustaining economy which is run by the money that comes from donations by the Sangat and all operations are carried out by volunteers. RSSB centers ( in India and around the world ) are built and maintained by volunteers, so it is rather cheap to ' run ' these places. It is all monetary or physical ' Seva ' by the Sangat in every way, but it is the RSSB trust that owns these properties. RSSB has cut back on all charitable activities, so it is not likely that the Guru's family are giving anything at all !

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Yes, financial oscillations between RSSB and Religare are a very likely scenario. Money going to and fro, borrowing and lending — it may all be happening. That would also help explain why the Singh Brothers gave Religare shareholding to no other relative, other than Gurinder. The RSSB purse-strings are solely in his hands and the RSSB-trust is mega cash-rich, and a tax-free pot of gold.

So, my take is that the Singh Brothers put in their capital and Gurinder was given a preferential allotment of equity based on his three-fold role : One, the promise of the " support of the RSSB-trust " as and when required. Two, Gurinder brought to the Religare table a band of RS loyalists ( like Sunil Godhwani, now Group CEO of Religare ) and RS board members who would keep everything under wraps and unquestionably sign any document.

( I'd like to add here that they're obviously not doing a very good job of keeping their secrets secure — I learnt from a top level employee, on a condition of anonymity, that there was some " backstage Guru " who was taking all the important decisions. This informer eventually quit Religare citing questionable business practices, poor governance and the risk of public exposure. )

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My additional thoughts are : Gurinder ordered the Ranbaxy sell-out, and as a faith policy, Shivinder and Malvinder do not over-rule anything HE decides. The final " go ahead boys " was given by Gurinder. I know this because the celebratory cheers resounded with a boisterous " Baba-ji does not make any mistakes ! " that came from none other than Sunil Godhwani, Baba-ji's right-hand man.

Before the news hit the press, everyone knew that a chunk of that booty would be pumped into Religare. Of course, Ranbaxy's health was generously inflated, but the sell-out was the best possible move from a financial standpoint — considering that the Singh Brothers made quite a mess of the succession when they inherited the company, which subsequently reflected in the company's performance over the years.

There was a joke in the corporates circles here that Parminder Singh was in a big shock in heaven when he learnt that Gurinder had advised his sons to sell Ranbaxy. His reaction was : " What ? Who the f*** is he ? " ( LOL ) This entire Religare affair that Gurinder's having with the Singh Brothers is in direct conflict with his role as a Guru, whether he's teaching 1.0 or 3.0. His insatiable appetite for wealth is sick, specially when there is no charitable initiative for the poorer sections of the Sangat that make up for ninety-five percent of his following.

IMO, Gurinder wants them to remain hungry and foolish otherwise they will not be interested in the salvation promise, which is why I think that Sant Mat 3.0 will never be introduced to the langar. You are absolutely right about the Mc-Donald's style of operations at Fortis. Also, the services they provide are the Micky-D's equivalent of fries and nuggets. It is all about the money, with little regard for ethical practice and human life.

But, it is interesting to note that post Ranbaxy, none of the Singh Brothers' businesses have been particularly profitable. It is too early to call, but Fortis is struggling. And, going forward, the competition will intensify. Religare is hemorrhaging under the acumen-devoid leadership of Sunil Godhwani and is showing no signs of recovering. Religare continually gets mini bail-outs from the huge cash reserves that the Singh Brothers are currently sitting on, but the well could dry-up in less than a decade if their current run continues.

It is also possible that Gurinder could make some bad ( not-so-GIHF ) decisions. Our comments here are forming a valuable archive for those who will seek to find out more, specially after the radical shift in the Sant Mat teachings.

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If you look at Page-94 of the Religare Prospectus you will find a board member and initiate named Mr. Deepak Ramchand Sabnani who has the foreign directorship of the ( RSSB ) Science of the Soul Study Centre International Limited which is an RSSB registered charity. What is a non-profit RSSB subsidiary doing on the corporate prospectus of Religare ? This is another link that proves that Religare board members who are initiates have also been given important roles within RSSB. I have learnt that business is preferentially given to the Guru's " inner circle " members who are also his close friends. http://www.sebi.gov.in/dp/reldraft.pdf http://www.scienceofthesoul.org 

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I met another one of Gurinder's old friends, a gentleman who now lives in Scotland. He told me that he was shocked when he learnt of his Guru-friends' recent wealth !

 

He also added that Moga ( as Gurinder is fondly called by his pre-guru-days friends' circle ) is living on the edge with his growing tide of greed and that land-grabbing has now become a common RSSB practice.

Believers, your " Master " is a fraud — that's as simple as it is. Much exploitation is possible in the name of " spirituality " and for the sake of the millions of followers who bow to his pretentious backside, I wish that this cult comes crashing down and Gurinder has no where to hide.

Comments

[Daljit]

Our family had a long association with the Radhasoamis.
My great grand father, my grand father and my father were all initiated.
However none of my brothers and sisters got initiated and now prefer going to the Gurudwara for our spiritual needs.
I now prefer understanding Sikh scriptures myself instead of chasing any guru for their interpretations.
My father was a Radhasoami fanatic. He will try to force all friends and relatives into Radhasoami.
During get togethers almost all of his conversations would be how great Radhasoami is. All walls in our house were full of Radhasoami guru’s pictures.
I remember being dragged to numerous satsangs and bhandaras and travelling long distances following the guru.
One thing I had noticed growing up was that none of the Agra Radhasoamis would go to the satsangs of Beas Radhasoamis and vice versa; which I found very strange.
Is it true that the charitable hospital at Beas dera had been closed? It is surprising knowing tons of money being spent on rapid expansion all around.

[Spence Tepper]

Hi Dalijit
Gurindar sold an RSSB charitable hospital, and all its acreage, to himself, into his private equity company, RHC, run by his son.

https://www.cnbctv18.com/views/the-devotion-of-the-singh-brothers-of-fortis-runs-deep-into-their-businesses-63575.htm

And in this legal document, where a construction company is suing RSSB and Fortis, it is confirmed.

https://indiankanoon.org/doc/87320658/

Worse, we learn that Gurindar had the charitable hospital destroyed, with the understanding that a new RSSB hospital would be built in its place, only to move those 200 acres of property to his private for-profit firm, Fortis, and build a specialty hospital, not a charitable hospital.

And we read of the myriad companies Gurindar has placed family members, including his wife, into principle roles, siphoning illegal loans from Fortis into these through the Singhs.

Here's some additional links to some of the stories in the business press:
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/features/2018-08-16/billionaires-and-the-guru-how-an-indian-family-lost-2-billion

https://www.businesstoday.in/magazine/the-hub/the-baba-singh-brothers-and-the-squandered-rs-225000000000/story/281437.html

[Jen]

Oh, the Gurinder bashing!

So strange to have people being so vindictive, a lot like jealousy and also the tall poppy syndrome... 'The tall poppy syndrome describes aspects of a culture where people of high status are resented, attacked, cut down, strung up or criticised because they have been classified as superior to their peers'.

Karma's going to get you guys, what you give out comes right back on ya.

[Daljit]

What about the karma of closing a charitable hospital and transferring the property to yourself?

[Jen]

All wrongdoings will be judged when we die.

No need for a Kangaroo Court: "an unofficial court held by a group of people in order to try someone regarded, especially without good evidence, as guilty of a crime or misdemeanour."

[Daljit]

So a kangaroo judge passed the judgement to close a long running charitable hospital and transfer the property to himself.

His devotees get upset when this is discussed in a public forum?

But it's not a kangaroo court when the guy is proclaimed as a perfect living master?

[Jen]

I'm not a devotee, just saying that all, everyone, will be judged including someone who is labelled a PLM. We will all be judged according to our actions in this lifetime, after we die. This is my belief and I may be wrong, but I certainly hope that there is justice for everyone.

[Daljit]

Then I am not a kangaroo court either... in case you were referring to me.
I shared my opinions and asked if the news about the charitable hospital being shut down was true or not.

[One Initiated]

Daljit,

This answer of mine is only to represent the facts and uncover the lies the person Spence is spreading using this Brian's website.
This is totally unrelated to the fact that you are follower or not and/or initiate or not.

Spence has wrongly answered your question.
You asked if the Dera Charitable hospital has been demolished, and the answer is No.

Spence is actually greatly misinterpreting and misrepresenting the facts.
he lives a comfortable life in US and is not even slightly aware of the facts of Indian communities, it's intricacies and the difficulties faced by the people here.
every existing reader now knows that how fake the comments of Spence are and doesn't carry a slight weight, however, the new readers like you and the new disciples may get heavily influenced by his falsified remarks, just like how you got. So beware of reading false stuffs and spreading them too.
gossips are not good - specially when spreading negative gossips about the Masters - collects huge negative karmas.
You mentioned you are not on this path and follows the Gurudwara, that's great - but still I think we all should stay away from negatively speaking about any Master - irrespective of whatever our path is. we should not attract negative karmas. Spence is wrongly motivating many other disciples and pushing them on the path of negativity.

Repeating a lie many times won't make it a fact, what he is talking about is a different far off property which was defunct for many years actually.

Daljit, the fact is that the huge Charitable hospital at the Beas Station, known as "Maharaj Sawan Singh Charitable Hospital, Bea" has grown into a much more bigger and equipped with modern facilities and welcomes anyone and everyone for the treatment.
It's here: https://www.rssb.org/hosp_msschBeas.html
And can be visited by anyone openly without any prior appointment.

I personally have documented account of persons (who are not followers of RSSB) - having received amazing care and treatment at the said hospital.
Along with free treatment, there are many young volunteers who joins time to time and also serve as attendant to those patients who unfortunately are alone.

Many disciples I personally know (including my parents) who by HIS grace also served at the construction of this hospital themselves say that the level of treatment at the Hospital has gone to a totally different level as compared to when Hazur got it built.

Along with that, earlier inside the Dera, it was a small dispensary and a small operation theatre (I personally had visited both) - are now converted into a full fledged (small scale but quite equipped) hospital within the Dera - which serves both OPD and IPD - for Dera residents and the visitors. I personally have visited this new Hospital in Dera.
Not only the visitors of Dera gets treated there, but also people from many adjoining villages comes there for the free treatment.

As per my information there is one more decent sized charitable hospital that is under proposal and the work might get started sooner or later.

Apart from that there are various OPD dispensaries are functional now in New Delhi and Mumbai (what I know and have seen) which also caters to the initiates/non-initiates without question and are charitable.

If you are looking for the truth, you can go on this page here:
https://www.rssb.org/hospitals.html
It describes in brief about these hospitals and their locations.

For really getting the sense on how the treatment and the care is going in these hospitals, one has to get a first hand experience and not talk absurd stuffs living far off in US. That's just plain non-sense.
I've myself been to many of these places and it's just remarkable to see how being in Love the guys there are treating the patients and that too for free. And all for just one thing that is Love for their Master. HIS Majesty Baba Gurinder Singh Ji Maharaj.

[s*]

Was the charitable hospital the ''new hospital'' maharaji Charan Singh build so fondly?

I was in Dera at that time maharaji was very invoved in the building..He liked very much to go there and see everything and gave darshan.

[Neon]

People may be good, but that does not mean they are god.

[Arjuna]

@ One Initiated- hello Brother

I hope you are well.

I have warned Spencer against making it personal against any master - my earnings fell on deaf ears.

He is a very confused man. One moment he has inner experiences (I don’t buy that) and the next he has become a so called “atheist’s” mouth peace.

We all know there is no such thing as an athiest - it’s a contradiction of the highest order. A confused mind with is laden with more bad karma than the US balance of trade deficit with China.

They will learn! On that note I’m off to play golf 🏌️‍♂️ 😀

[One Initiated]

S*, yes that's correct - that's the same hospital as in earlier time known as "new hospital" built by Hazur Charan Singh Ji Mahraj.
Yes, HE was greatly involved in building and architecting it.

I think you've not visited that place in ages, Babaji has been pouring the same love there and the hospital has further grown improved a lot. OPD is mostly completely occupied with the nearby villagers. The level of treatment is extremely commendable and there isn't any charge.

Neon, you are correct.
That does not mean, but that can mean that as well. You don't know unless you reach there.
We are wasting this precious life and breaths in the arguments.
You will not understand unless you receive and experience it first hand.
By HIS grace I do, not once, but in each and every satsang that I attend by HIS order. HE appears in HIS Grandiose.

Arjuna, hello brother. Hope you are having a good time. Never fail a day brother, just never. Even 15 minutes daily works wonders.
Yes, what you said is correct.
We all are here to help each other - not to spread negativity by spreading false notions.
There is a big difference in Brian and Spence.
Brian is basically reprinting the news articles, thinking these are facts and he is trying to make others aware of it.
Spence on the other hand is cooking up things in his own mind without any basis and indirectly ridiculing the sewa of thousands of volunteers who are working days and nights for the betterment of the humanity. The central energy of all these efforts is Babaji.

ilanovitch,
Yes, these 3 hospitals are registered and the 4th one within the Dera which also is capable for various small scale illness - they are all running full time and believe me the environment and care they take on each patient is worth experiencing.

[Daljit]

I am glad that the charitable hospitals (or some of them) are still running.

Regarding Perfect Living Masters AKA human gurus I have read many sages and many of them (Ramana Maharishi, Nisargadutta Maharaj etc) though at very advanced stage of consciousness refused to be treated as Gurus. In one of the book a devotee of Ramana Maharishi says that he treats Ramana Maharishi as his guru and Ramana Maharishi responds by saying that this human guru is telling you that human gurus are really not needed. All you need is to follow the advice.

I now have fresh appreciation for advice given by Sikh gurus against the need of living gurus. They are really not needed. Guru is the wisdom contained in Gurbani and not the human form. Just follow the advice. It was a long learning process though… took a while to register the advice.
But hey it was part of the process. People learn at their own speed.
No judgements. God is the only judge. As the saying goes people get the gurus they deserve (or they get the guru per their current conscious level).
The universe is no hurry. Take your time. Enjoy the journey.

[Jesse]

Of course One Initiated would say that stealing a hospital built with seva money and giving it to a gurus for profit business is somehow related to "intricacies of Indian society."

You're a sick and twisted piece of meat, One. I hope you suffer.

And then you have Daljit proselytizing for Sikhism while knowing little about it and Jen judging everyone while telling them how wrong judging people is.

The topic is a thieving Guru. This is beyond dispute at this point. The guy is shady. It's not wrong to notice that he's shady as Jen wants you to believe. It's not proof that some other random religion is true like Daljit it wants you to think. And it's certainly not a complicated matter that requires intimate knowledge of Indian culture like the ever pathetic One Initiated wants you to think. Gurinder Singh Dhillon is a crook.

Let it be a warning to everyone who is considering joining a religion or accepting a guru. They're in a position to screw people big time. Don't dive in head first like an idiot and have to spend years defending criminals because you invested your entire ego into a man you'll never meet.

[Brian Hines]

Jesse, great comment. You have an appealing way of cutting through bullshit and getting down to the bare bone of what’s true.

[vanshita arora]

we know. how our master is*sangant is not forced to donate money or land etc.So plzz stop spreading this mis informations we can too report this handles.Don't judge our And our guru's patience please.Spread Love. all around and they better taught us to do so.

[Love]

There is a lot of sexual attraction between Brian and Jesse. I am so happy for you guys . You are so in love thats great. I also know one older gay couple like you too and they also were so free and happy when they came out like you two.Love love

[Jesse The Anti Baba-ist]

"Jesse knows nothing, completely on the outside of everything, and has zero affiliation with anything RSSB offers or promotes"

You doofus I was initiated in 2007, been to Dera, asked Baba questions, and read nearly every book they ever published as well as listened to now-extinct audiotapes of people talking about their inner experiences etc. I know just as much about this org as any other non-insider.

The average satsangi who comments here sounds like a 5th grade child. Maybe Sawan Singh and Dr Johnson had a love affair. Maybe Gurinder molests his sons. Is that where you wanna go with this? lol Your cult will have riots within a year or two like all the fraud deras do. Good luck with that. Maybe you'll be on the front lines getting lathi charged for your love of a bald man in a turban.

We're talking about fraud, theft and cults. If you don't wanna discuss that but have insults to throw around instead, make the insults mildly funny or undeniably abusive. So far you've failed to deliver on either of those criteria, "Love" and "Ilanovitch." Just be funny or shut up.

[Jen]

@ Jesse,

Jesse, thank you for calling me out for being judgmental "Jen judging everyone while telling them how wrong judging people is"... "The guy is shady. It's not wrong to notice that he's shady as Jen wants you to believe."

At first I felt guilty and then, because I enjoy the philosophy of Zen buddhism, of course did a search to see what their outlook was about judgment.

"When you take a moment to examine it, the dogma of not making judgments collapses under the weight of its own hypocrisy, because it is in itself based upon a judgment - that we should not make judgments. It is a view that denies hierarchy, that denies right and wrong, while stating that those who hold this view are right and that those who don't are wrong."

"Silence is not neutral; it always supports the liar, the phoney, the abuser, the oppressor. It is the duty of a Zen monk to speak out, to challenge, to cut through delusion, to turn sickness into healing."

"To speak out in qualitative judgment does not violate the Precept against using unskillful speech - but to remain silent and uncritical in the face of lies and abuse is a violation of that and every other Precept, a violation of the Bodhisattva Vows, and a rejection of the Buddha Dharma."

So when I react to people judging Gurinder which is totally their own perspective and projection onto another person, I feel the need to express my own opinion about judgment, especially when its malicious. Maybe he is 'shady', and maybe he's not. So we are all doing exactly that... judging. Including you Jesse.

http://www.buddhistchannel.tv/index.php?id=8,7194,0,0,1,0#.XJgJrOszY8Y

[spence tepper]

hi Dalijit!

I apologize for the slurs and abusive comments of the RSSB initiates here related to the demolition, then sale of one of the RSSB Hospitals.

The facts, or at least what is reported, is as follows. These are not my words, but quotes from the sources:

"An interesting example of this was in Feb 2014, when Religare Health Trust or RHT announced the purchase of the Mohali hospital property from RSSB. The transaction was for Rs 270 crore or $43.2 million, which the RSSB sect would receive for it.

"Interestingly, the current CEO, executive director and board member of RHT Holdings is Gurpreet Singh Dhillon. As per the RHT website, he also serves as a Director on the board of two wholly owned subsidiaries of RHT. He was appointed CEO of RHT holdings at the age of 29, in 2013."

https://www.cnbctv18.com/views/the-devotion-of-the-singh-brothers-of-fortis-runs-deep-into-their-businesses-63575.htm

You may read this for yourself.

The Hospital was sold from RSSB to RHT which then sold it to Fortis.

The court document, from the builder suing RSSB, is a little more detailed. Here are some relevant quotes:

"3.1 GBPL is a private company and is, inter alia, engaged in the business of civil construction. RSSB is a society registered under the Societies Registration Act, 1860. RSSB awarded the work of a 200 bedded hospital at village Mundian Kalan, Ludhiana to GBPL on turnkey basis, by a letter of intent dated 01.09.2010. Subsequently, the parties entered into the agreement dated 03.12.2010 (hereafter 'the Agreement') for construction of the hospital. "

GBPL is the construction contractor. They contracted with RSSB in 2010 to build a new 200 bed hospital for RSSB where the old RSSB hospital was.

But RSSB transfered the property, as above, through RHC to Fortis Healthcare, a for-profit chain, also with Dhillon family members at the helm at the time.

"3.2 GBPL claims that the work could not be completed in time on account of various reasons attributable to RSSB and Fortis. It is alleged that RSSB committed a breach of the agreements which resulted in delay in completion of the works. GBPL further claims that in July, 2012, a team from Fortis took over the work which was earlier being monitored by Project Management Committee (PMC). It is further claimed that RSSB transferred the hospital to Fortis in a clandestine manner."

https://indiankanoon.org/doc/87320658/

[Arjuna]

@ Spencer. Just read your links above.

It certainly appears to be an enigma within the enigma. A lot of thought and energy has been spent on the creation of these engines to drive the deals of the sales of the hospital.

Question- what does beas have as a medical facility to treat the poor who visit now?

[spencer Tepper]

Hi Arjuna and Daljit!

I stand corrected. The first article mentions the sale of the RSSB Mohali hospital and its grounds into private hands, RHC holdings, run by Dhillon family (Gurinder's sons).

The second article, the legal document mentions the transfer of the new 200 bed RSSB hospital built for RSSB at Mundian Kalan, Ludhiana, and transferred by RSSB into the private for-profit corporation healthcare company, Fortis, also run by Gurinder's son and the Singh brothers at the time.

These are two RSSB charitable properties Gurinder sold, essentially, to himself, and into a for-profit corporation, no longer charitable hospitals as planned.

You will notice on the RSSB website that neither property is mentioned. Further, you may also notice that no existing RSSB facility is 200 beds in size. This would have been the largest RSSB hospital built to date. And according to the legal contract, it was contracted with RSSB monies originally, but re-assigned to Fortis.

[Arjuna]

@ Spencer - thanks for the clearing that up - I kinda spotted that but the over all theme is never the less the same.

[spencer Tepper]

Hi Arjuna!

Yes, the themes continue: A highly charitable organization that feeds millions every year, and yet...one that has been using its largess for less than charitable reasons.

We cannot deny both. Like this realm, it's mixed. RSSB, just like Church of the Churchless, is run and contributed to by human beings with human strengths and human flaws.

It doesn't take away one bit from the teachings.

But you cannot say that Gurinder is a role model of a modest, conservative life that finds ways to live comfortably on less, with a somewhat smaller footprint.

But there are many who are such role models. But they may not have the teachings.

I don't think you can get very far spiritually if you are saddled with a myriad of attachments. A Master might be able to, in theory. But such a being would not be a good role model for us fallible human beings.

Now, if Gurinder where to assume all responsibility for his cousin's behavior, and diligently and publicly accept responsibility for those family loans,especially his own, then we can say "he is doing as much as any human being can do and more, willing to shoulder the burden of his family members and friends also.." And that is a good role model for all of us.

Otherwise, we must find our role models for how to live here elsewhere.

Now, as for meditation, he understands the teachings, as far as I can say, perfectly.

And if you find Him within, then there is nothing else to say, there is that perfection.

But out here, every bucket must carry its own water.
We all have to stand on our own two feet, earn an honest living, and as best we can pay our bills, and help give each other the strength to do so. Because it requires strength, and we are weak, generally. We need to help each other.

Where we can't, and often we can't undo what we've done, then we beg forgiveness, and do not hide in the least from admitting what has happened, and spend our days making amends. Then we are in the Mauj.

If we cannot be a role model of perfection, we can be a role model of being honest, and trying to better ourselves.

That much we can hold ourselves to, and encourage that from each other.

Now, that process requires a lot of forgiveness. So, we get to exercise that also. And if Baba Ji apologizes, the whole Sangat will be tested again, to practice forgiveness. It's not about the Master, it's about our own willingness to practice these values: Honesty, effort to make amends, earning our own way honestly, and asking honestly for forgiveness, and giving forgiveness immediately, encouraging personal progress.

Maharaji was asked to forgive and he said "Did you ask the person involved first?"

It starts with each other.

[H]

I just came across this blig if yours some time back.

I have ni clue why are you involved in this matter in the first place ir what are your motives or intereats are. However a few things that i know from my personal experience are listed here...these are my view points expressed and based on my experience in spirituality for the past few years.

1. RSSB and santmat believes in living an honest life out of ones own earnings. So by being an investor in a company, babaji is leading by example and in my view a part of santmat practise.

2. No organisation whether spiritual or otherwise is totally clean and has its own set of issues, some members of the organisation are good and some are not... juts blaming the head of tge organisation is not correct.

3. Why did Daichi come up with this claim after such along time? Were they not aware of this before. Indormation about UsFDAs probe into Ranbaxy wqs a piblicly available information before the sale of the company completed in nov 2008. THIS can be verified from the publix websites like bloomberg and livemint.

4. RSSB has its legacy dating back to a century or more so its not appropriate to claim over a one off thing.. it includes teachings of spirituality from different faiths. In my experience there is nothing wrong in the rssb literature.

5.In my view babaji is just an inveator in the company with no interest in the day to day running of the company. To support this claim i can point you to publix information about his trips local and international, his involcement in leading and heading the huge RSSB organisation which is global. I know that he is personally involved in day to major decisions of RSSB through out the world. How do you expect him to find time for running the company. From.your comments it seems to me that you are farely new to the investment world so you dont know how it works..that ia what makes you comment.

6.Why did the singh brothers not contest daichis claim about hiding important information before the sale?

well this is some thoughts for you to rethink and revert back.

[Dungeness]

To speak out in qualitative judgment does not violate the Precept against using unskillful speech - but to remain silent and uncritical in the face of lies and abuse is a violation of that and every other Precept, a violation of the Bodhisattva Vows,

Thanks for a superb counterpoint, Jen. Your Zen quotes resonate
with me and are especially apt.

We're all constantly judging. It's an intrinsic part of the mind's filter.
The evidence of legal and ethical shadiness of GSD and those in
his orbit is unquestionable. The legal and journalistic challenges are
dharmically "right action".

But "shade" can and quickly does become an oppressive darkness
when it overreaches. When it devolves into calling RSSB a "cult", or a
leader a "proven charlatan", or renders a "guilty on all counts" verdict
in some Kangaroo court. Or photoshops a pix to look like a mug shot.

Our whole jurisprudence is designed to rein in the more egregious
of our judgments. They must be sober, measured, reflective. There
must be process. Rules of evidence. Referees. Juries.

We're not the problem because we judge, but because we "race to
judge". A few news reports and we've "got the big picture". It's clear
as day who the perp is after all. We want justice now, not delayed.
Chants of "lock 'em up" are resounding.

We don't ever wanna be wrong. Nope, no doubt whodunit. So we
judge and ignore who and what within us is doing that judging. We're
sure though, there's no chance of a mistake. Do we ever listen, pause,
and reflect first... seldom.

Instead I'm distracted by what's hidden. By a relentless need to
always be right. To vent. To demo a superior opinion. So I jump,
condemn, shoot from the hip, run the mouth all too often.
It's a mistake.

[One Initiated]

Another lie from Spence,

the Dera Hospital is 300-bed hospital fully functional 24x7
https://www.rssb.org/hosp_msschBeas.html

[Spence Tepper]

Hi Jen, Jesse and Dungeness :
We should avoid judging someone's character. It's almost impossible to do accurately. The more we must conjecture, the less accurate our judgment.

But actions, what actually happened, who said what, who did what, that's more straightforward. And we should not ignore or look away from evidence of uncomfortable actions.

Gurinder, his wife and sons, took millions in loans that were not repaid. Why? No one knows. We can't know. They have not spoken publicly on the matter, except to promise to do so.

But did it happen? There is a substantial amount of evidence to support the conclusion "yes."

And members of the Dhillon family and RSSB senior associates were directors of shell companies who actively participated in, according to the Securities and Exchange Board of India, "fictitious, fraudulent" and illegal activities to cover up those loans and make it appear they were being repaid when they were not.

These are actions. That's as far as we can go. Then judgment is limited only to "is the evidence, or the conclusion of the SEBI sound? Is it likely these actions actually happened?"

I believe it is very likely, given the evidence that currently exists.

Beyond that I believe the Dhillons should repay the money they took, or make a plan to do so acceptable to their creditors if they are unable.

[Spence Tepper]

Hi One Initiated.. Yes I see the link. I stand corrected.

But your depiction of these as lies is incorrect.

Please show me where the Mohali RSSB hospital is still in service, or the one in Ludhiana as RSSB charitable hospitals. It appears that they are not on the RSSB web site.

If the sale of either hospital detailed in the above links provided is in error, I'm also happy to acknowledge that, if you can also provide evidence.

Otherwise, if you can let the facts guide you, then there is no difference between us at all.

[Spence Tepper]

Hi Arjuna
It is a fact that RSSB does amazing charity. That is to be praised. And supported.
And it also appears that their largess may have resulted in less than charitable use of their holdings.
People are people.

[Hitesh]

I had made a comment but somehow it was never posted or removed.

why was it?

[Spence Tepper]

Hi Jen
You wrote, citing the Bodhisattva
"
" ... but to remain silent and uncritical in the face of lies and abuse is a violation of that and every other Precept, a violation of the Bodhisattva Vows, "

Hence the necessity to acknowledge wrong-doing openly, with an aim to forgiveness and rehabilitation.

[One Initiated]

Spence,

Babaji's own words clearly mentioned in one of the recent Satsangs:
"Master never takes action to please the disciples, HE proceeds with the demands of the situation and betterment of humanity"

Just like you have never asked from where the funds for running the existing (and Huge) charitable are coming and going, you neither have the right to ask anything else either. Because you are neither the part of the management - nor the owner of these properties. And so you can keep asking but to what objective?
Who cares to answer your absurd questions towards the Master anyhow?
Master is not answerable to you.

There are many more things which I can not write on the website but can tell you in person if you want.

Everyone who is on The Path of The Masters, needs to understand one important thing that Master is not answerable to the disciple.
On the contrary, a it's a disciple's responsibility to please the Master.

There are actions taken by Master which are not perceivable to you at this moment.
It will take time to have everything cleared up results to surface. You happen to not know them.
And this is really strange that you are inside and you don't know them. That's a huge doubt, Spence, on your own claims.

You have demonstrated a negatively staunch perspective towards current Master mostly because you are unaware of the reality.

You have not visited any of the above places you mentioned against or in favour.
You currently know nothing except the inflated news.
And thus your stand towards everything above is pretty feeble.

Come to India,
And I will welcome you and also Brian and will be more than happy to show you everything and also tell you much much more details that you don't have slight idea yet.

[Dungeness]

And members of the Dhillon family and RSSB senior associates were directors of shell companies who actively participated in, according to the Securities and Exchange Board of India, "fictitious, fraudulent" and illegal activities to cover up those loans and make it appear they were being repaid when they were not.
...
Beyond that I believe the Dhillons should repay the money they took, or make a plan to do so acceptable to their creditors if they are unable.

Gurinder, his wife and sons, took millions in loans that were not repaid. Why? No one knows. We can't know. They have not spoken publicly on the matter, except to promise to do so.

Hi Spence,

The Dhillon family may be silent on the advice of attorney. A "mea
culpa" of any form -even a repayment scheme- from them may
cloud the role and actual complicity of others such as Godhwani
and the Singhs, mislead investigators, influence potential jurors, etc.

Who can assess the culpability of all the named and un-named
power players hiding in the shell company maze?

How do you parse the ambiguity of the "Family Agreement", all the
finger pointing, the fisticuffs between the Singhs, an alleged death
threat by GSD? How would the amateur sleuths here on the blog
assess whodunit, who gotta pay, and how much?

At this point even the most honorable and benign public statement
by GSD, could be construed wrongly, used by an unscrupulous co-
defendant to claim "Total vindication. See... the Fake Guru was the
villain, the mastermind." It could even be sensationalized by tabloids
Headline: "Baba admits Guilt. Will he serve time?

So it's reasonable an atty will counsel silence until the opportune time.
In court...

[Hitesh]

Though i still have a lot of learning on the spiritual path, i shall summarise a few of the comments i made previously..which likely never came up.

1. I am not sure the reasons behind the blogger being so much against RSSB..

2. Daichi was taken over in nov 2008, the us fda irregulaeities were known much before.. why was it not bought forward then by daichi and now after 11 years they come fwd abt it.

3. In my view, Babaji is not involved in the day to day running of the company where he is a major share holder in..he is greatly involved in the running of RSSB organisation and gets involved in the minute day to day operations through the sewa heads.

4. All organisations ..spiritual ir otherwise. have good and bad people. so it is not appropriate to blame the head or the major investor dor tge same for it

these are my views baaed on my little association with rssb

[s*]

Thank you One Initiated, good to know about the hospitals..!
I was in Dera few years ago but did not look for the hospitals that time..
I was often confused about the teachings in the Indian satsangs and felt very sad now and then about that.
The last time I was there i was homesick I wanted to go home really.
While in other periods I just did want to stay longer and by periods I wanted to stay and live in Dera.
But that is long ago by now..
I am changed and Dera is not what it was..clearly very different..

I am happy that I have my ''own inner path''now..
Without radiant forms and karma transmigrations adoration etc..
Just having my own inner Self for ever with me..
Because I Am That..
We all have..We All Are God made.

[ttt]

@daljit did u try for initiation and got rejected or didn't try at all

[Just the FACTS]

Forgive me if I have missed something, but all I can see is that there were some business dealings and some money is still outstanding.

Looks like there was some "cooking of the books" but that was by Malvinder and Shivinder, not the guru.

Is anyone alleging criminal activity by the mafia boss and Guru?

not repaying a loan in time is not a crime

[Jim Sutherland]

Ilasovitch,....asks Jim,,”Not sure what you are advertising Jim Sutherland, spell it out clearly so that it's not shrouded in gobble de gook terms

Posted by: ilanovitch | March 24, 2019 at 07:10 PM”

Yankee Doodle Dandee Jim answers,....
Well, I was not advertising, ...but just wondering if, you, as one of the old School, Charan Initiates, are a Convert of GSD’s Reformed Theology of Osho’s Neo-Advaita Oneness teachings, and if you, as a Charan Initiate, would have been quewed in line at the Oct. 2017 Q & A meeting, next to ask your question , and witnessed Gurinder, who you had been told was The appointed GIHF, start using Porno jokes on a Nurtrician Doctor asking him questions, been OK with GSD’s jokes or thoughts? Type in “ Jim Sutherland” in the Search box, to retrieve my prior Posts in Church, and scroll to Oct. 2017, and start reading my posts, reporting on my Dera Visit, and the responses I received from Fundamentaist Satsangis, as you appear to sound like, in your posts since you appeared here.

Find my posts, read thru the exchanges, than honestly report back here, after reading the comments, if you still see the Halo around GSD’s Turban. If you are unable to find the initial report I posted, let me know, and I will highlight it for you.

Forget the Financial Fraud accusations, for the moment, and ask your self, if you think Master Charan Singh would have EVER asked such questions of any Satsangi he had initiated?

Then, depending on your answers, I will decide whether to consider you as a Charan Initiate Brother, or just another puffed up self appointed egotistic intellectual , sour on American Yankee Doodle Dandees, as you appear to be, with that comment.

Cheers,
Jim Sutherland

[Daljit]

@ttt

I never applied for initiation. Radhoasoami theories/beliefs did not impress me at all.
I thought they are high on Sales/PR (Public Relations) and low on content.
I found them to be cult like with a dominating central authority and whole organization revolving around it.

I found it amusing that were so many groups already each with their own Guru and claiming successorship. Peepal Mandi, Soami Bagh, Dayal Bagh, Beas, Tarn Taran, Hoshiarpur, Gwalior, Dinod etc.
With some like Rajinder Singh, Dera Sacha Sauda etc rejecting the Radhasoami brand name altogether.

[spence tepper]

Hi Just The Facts:

You asked
"Is anyone alleging criminal activity by the mafia boss and Guru?

not repaying a loan in time is not a crime"

The loans given to Gurinder family members were given under fraudulent circumstances by the Singhs, but with the active participation of the shell companies, which at the time, had Dhillon family and RSSB leaders among their directors.

Not repaying a loan is not a crime, but defaulting on several hundred million loans might be, if it was done with intent. We don't know that yet, only that several hundred million dollars loaned to the Dhillon family have gone unrepaid, and worse, checks from the shell companies that gave them the loans were written in a circular fashion back and forth to cover for these Dhillon family loans to make it appear they are making loan payments when they actually were not being paid at all.

So, the SEBI has audited and called this "Fraudulent and Fictitious Activity" and ruled that both the Singhs and the Shell companies are guilty and must repay these loans immediately. They gave 90 days, and no loans were repaid.

In that duration, Malvinder has made several accusations against Gurinder and family regarding their complicity in the fraud. However, since Malvinder is a party to that fraud his accusations are of questionable value. No doubt he is desperate because he can't repay the money. But he can't repay the money because the Dhillon family, whom he helped, albeit fraudulently, hasn't repaid, either.

The Supreme Court of India has also stepped in to order both the Singh Brothers and the Shell companies to repay, and gone further by sending Garnishment orders to those who took the loans, and that would by definition, include Dhillon family members, though that detail is not mentioned in the press. Al we know is that these shell companies gave several hundred millions in loans to Dhillon family and associates in "loans".

The loans themselves were fraudulently given over several years by the Singhs (though Gurinder's son was also an operating executive at Fortis at the time) without any collateral, in violation of both Fortis policy and SEBI law. These were accepted by Dhillon family throughout the last nine years or so.

The Garnishment orders are to repay Fortis directly, and not the shell companies, nor Malvinder.

This is where we stand today.

[spence tepper]

Hi Again, "Just the Facts"

Here are some links so that you may see the information for yourself, which I have attempted to sumarize:

The Securities and Exchange Board of India's audit and ruling of Fictious and Fraudulent Activity:
https://www.sebi.gov.in/enforcement/orders/oct-2018/order-in-the-matter-of-fortis-healthcare-limited_40755.html

The Supreme Court of India's order for repayment, and identification that the debts were far larger than the initial SEBI audit demonstrated:

https://www.businesstoday.in/current/corporate/sc-take-note-singh-brothers-can-pay-off-usd-500-million-to-daiichi-provided-the-money-is-recovered/story/326995.html

And some additional review of the Supreme Court ruling related to payment of the Daiichi fraud settlement.

https://hinessight.blogs.com/files/sc-take-note-singh-brothers-can-pay-off-500-million-to-daiichi-provided-the-money-is-recovered.pdf

And more about the loans given to Gurinder family and Malvinder's claims about their intent:

https://www.livemint.com/companies/news/fortis-fraud-may-exceed-rs-2-000-crore-says-sfio-1550522937932.html

[spencer tepper]

One more point, "Just The Facts"

While late payment on a loan isn't a crime, and defaulted loans isn't a crime IF you agree to a satsifactory repayment plan, it is a crime to accept such loans if they were fraudulently obtained.

The recipient of the monies obtained from fraud is in fact an accessory to a crime, and subject to criminal prosecution.

This is only one layer removed, but if it happens repeatedly, then it becomes more difficult to prove you "had no idea" the money was obtained in such a way.

When your wife and sons are actively participating in obtaining the monies through fraud it is even more difficult to claim that you knew nothing..

And if you are a perfect Master, even less credible.

So, yes, we are talking about criminal activity and the potential for the biggest recipient of that fraud to be considered an accessory to that fraud.

But all we have now are the garnishment orders and the ongoing criminal investigation by the SEBI crimes wing, and the documented fact that both the Singhs and the Dhillon family were the biggest beneficiaries of that fraud for over a decade.

[spence tepper]

Hi One Initiated:

You wrote:
"Spence,

Babaji's own words clearly mentioned in one of the recent Satsangs:
"Master never takes action to please the disciples, HE proceeds with the demands of the situation and betterment of humanity""

Yes, if you accept that He is God, then anything he might do can be packaged into that covering.

However, no True Master breaks the law, and all earn their own living.

The Masters teach this as well.

Given that we have what appears to be a conflict, I prefer to accept the facts as they are, and wait. I don't think Master wants anyone to ignore the facts, or to slur other Satsangis, such as myself, who are acknowledging the evidence to date.

No Master wants blind faith, One Initiated, and all true Saints teach this as well.

I don't need to pretend "it didn't happen"...I don't need to pretend those charitable hospitals weren't sold to Dhillon family private interests. It happened.

But I can't explain it either. You may accept it as His will. I tend towards that. But I don't pretend that fraud isn't fraud. There may be reasons for it. But fraud is fraud.

[Jim Sutherland]

Ilanovitch writes to Jim,....”To try appease your inquisitions into your categorisation of how I should fit in your prescription of "satsangihood", no I don't regard myself a convert of any reformatted / reformed school of thinking or any such "Neo-Advaita" this or that philosophy. I'm simply an initiate of Huzur Charan Singh which, as sounds from some of your soundbites, are you, likewise few others here, including the 'esteemed' author.

Posted by: ilanovitch | March 25, 2019 at 06:46 AM”

Jim answers,.......for the Church Records that get archieved,.....
Thanks, Brother! Looks like we are both members of the Marked Elect, ...but perhaps in different chapters of the same Book.

Here is your Personal invitation to my Blog , where I have shared my Journey on my floundering around on the Path to arrive where I am now. The Wheel pf 84 continues to turn and churn, and my Ticket to Jump off has been punched by Charan Singh, and I am unpacked, and ready to leave all my baggage and attachments here, and ready to depart, as soon as the final Big Bell Sounds! I might miss my Harley, but where I will be going, I will no longer require such prehistoric Transportation.
https://eternaloasisofsouls.blogspot.com

😇🙏🏻
Jim Sutherland

[One Initiated]

Dear S*,

Thanks for sharing your experiences and briefing your current state.

Yes, we all change. However, it's best to have changed for betterment.
We all have to be our own judge than others.
Self assessment of how frequent we are out played by anger and lust when we are meditating and when we are not. It's a very simple experiment.
We can also observe the frequency of our breaths. The constant sitting and the quality meditation always brings down the frequency with a great factor.
The Master has already given us everything what HE had, as long as we are on a great inner path and doing constant meditation, I believe the journey is going amazing. It's surely not mandatory to attend the physical form, however, a personal experiences is that it boosts the journey with many grands of factor, conditionally if we have the feeling of Love for the form.

And off course if we stay away from attending the meditation, we keep going far and far away.
Many times its the case that the disciples of the predecessor Master can simply not get accustomed to the style of the successor, after all every saint has their own peculiar style which is unmatchable.

And the change in style brings disappointment to the older disciples, I've witnessed the similar expression in my relations and friends with the elderly people.

It's always being said the disciple may leave the Master, but the true Master never leaves the disciple, HE is always there for the disciple here and there.
I do not have slightest doubt that this is true for You, Jen, Brian, Spence, Jim, Dungeness, Jesse, Manjit, Osho and everyone else too.

[Jim Sutherland]

@ilanovitch.....here is the paragraph in my Report of my Dera Visit you must have either missed, or skipped over.
“When I was a Pastor, with a trusted Congregation that loved me, and had put their trust in me to be their Shepard, I used to have a “ Sharing Testimony Time”, before my Sermons, as most Evangelical Churches still do, that allows Desciples to share their Testimonies of what The Lord has done for them to help them in their lives recently and why they love Him.

Its kind of like a Question & Answer session as Gurinder does.

Imagine some man coming to the Mic at one of my Testimony sessions and startiing to complain about the food we brought to our Pot Luck Meals after Chruch Services. Then, as the Pastor of the Flock, I start countering his complaints, putting him on the spot, because I am in charge, because he is in my Church, and I am the appointed Pastor. ( I was, )

Now, as the complsiner is getting frustrated because I am Check Mating him publicly, before my large mixeded Congregation, of married, single, males, females, and children, the man starts saying,. .” But, Pastor, bla bla bla, and I again counters. He again says, “ but Pastor, bla bla bla,....”

I then JOKE!

My answer out of the sewer is,......” you sure like butts, huh” Do you still like your wifes butt?

The man seems embarressed. He answers,...”Master, I am 69, and no longer think of butts.”

Then, I Jokingly counter by saying, ...( as Gurider did to him before 2500 of us in a mixed audience from all over the world from different countries, cultures and Nationalities ) , “ Well, do you know what 69 means?” ( he now is on re ord haven said this to all that were there with me. )

The man is obviously now really embarressed, and answers,....” Master, Masters shouldn't talk about things like that....”

The laughter echoes thru out the Auditorium.

I suddenly wonder if I took the wrong door and entered a Porn Theator instead of a Scared Spiritual Discourse Lecture.

I think even Dr. David Lane would have felt embarressed and uncomfortable had he been sitting thete beside me with his lovely wife and two sons!

I am glad my wife was not with me.”

The conversation was later verified, by an anonymous Satsangi that was there at the Q & A session mentioned. He said thete were many others that were embarressed as well. I miscalculated the number in the mixed audience. There were not 2500 there, but most likely between 350-400.

Your Yankee Doodle Dandee snipe was an invitation to Red Blooded Americans, ( like me) that don’t remain silent, when called out by Trump and America haters. Jessie and I may be ages apart in Spiritual beliefs, but we seem to both be Delorables waving the MAGA Red White and Blue Flag, and I am also a Southern Rebel that despises the Liberal Socialist With Hunt against our Duly elected President, Donald J. Trump , that has been going on since the Witch Hilary Clinton was chased away on her Broom. We all knew Trump was a Womanizer, when we vited for him, but we that vited for him, were not hiring a GIHF, or another lying Politician. We hired a savy Businessman, a Negotiator that has a Track Record of getting things down, like building a Wall to keep Migrant Free Loaders out, and draining the Political Washinton D.C. Swamp. He is getting the Job done, slowly but surely.
Jim Sutherland

Posted by: Jim Sutherland | October 21, 2017 at 02:27 AM

[Vizpin]

How much money u all of them have got for spreading all those rumours?

[Ranjeev Thakur]

Master is master , I pray for all those who don't have belief in god ask yourself before commenting. Stop spreading rumours hope may this will help u guys to be blessed with naadaan in this birth or in the next. Otherwise bishtha ke keede hi bane rahoge. May Babaji bless you. So please be wise n honest.

[Matheikal]

4 years back, Gurinder got a whole school - Sawan Public School in Delhi - shut down. He converted the 15-acre campus into parking lot for his VIP devotees. A whole lot of employees from teachers to gardeners were thrown out of jobs mercilessly. This man's greed is insatiable.

[Meditator]

If we have the faith and also some inner experience hinting His command in the inner regions then discussing His worldy acts or behaviout are of academic interest only than emotional.

Ducking facts to whatever extent these appear in the media and reproduced here have some relevance but how can we absolve His such acts or behaviour because we feel embarrassed and therefore shocked.

But say. If all this what is being contested as of now by some gets proven in course of time then will that taint on His earthly character wipe off the strength of His inner pure mighty self.

To me His inner self is of Paramount importance as is His outer one. But He can put you into confusion brazenly by the Outer one. and you may have no choice while Inner one is not easily accessible.

Contesting with disciple's emotions and other than facts confuse.. And if you are sure of yourself about the path and He then whatever be the situation it hardly impacts now and then.

[Brian Hines]

Vizpin, I haven't gotten any money for sharing the facts about the RSSB guru that have been reported in the Indian financial press. But I'm glad that you feel I should. If you want to send me a lot of money, feel free.

[One Initiated]

Brian, my 1 cent 😀 - please give me your bank or paypal account.

Matheikal,
That's again half information and half information even if it's true, it's actually false, just like you are using it to spread negative expressions.

Yes HE demolished the half a century old small school building and converted it into a world class international school at Dera known as The Path Seekers School.

You can get more information here: http://pathseekers.education/
It's a charitable and does not have a fee structure because there isn't any fee.

This is well inside the Dera Beas, I've visited this place and it's truly a world class school. There is also a dedicated department for taking care of children with special needs - it's just full of love. you gotta watch it to believe it that a school of such excellence exists.

[jay]

Sawan's school closed down by Gurinder allegation.

Is this the same Sawan school? This news story states allegations by certain parties but doesn't report if they're accurate.
https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/home/education/news/New-management-trying-to-close-school-alleges-staff/articleshow/20402538.cms

According to what I could find online, this school still exists, and not as a parking lot:
http://www.icbse.com/schools/bhavan-s-sawan-public-school/2730022

[s*]

One Initiated,
Thanks for your reply.
After some,not much time, I loved Babaji also very much,I got used to him.
So that was not the reason that I ''fell ''from the path.
I could not handle the doctrines anymore.

Also when there is much love for the guru and one can not see him often..is not good.
Plus I started to doubd him...
So also because of these facts, for me,it was better to quitt.
I missed the sangat,but maybe I sometimes go there again..
But its now my very own path I wish to walk.
Awareness bhakti to God or Conciousness is now my path..also Mindfullness.

[spencer tepper]

Hi One Initiated!

The new school is extremely impressive, and its mission of charity, with zero fees, the highest moral value.

But as Matheikel has provided one portion of the story, and you another portion, there are the missing pieces. Here is a link to the demolished school, apparantly in New Delhi?

https://www.change.org/p/chief-justice-of-india-chief-justice-of-high-court-delhi-l-g-of-delhi-chief-minister-of-delhi-demolition-of-school-overnight-by-religious-sect-in-connivance-with-business-tycoon?recruiter=false&utm_source=share_petition&utm_medium=copylink&fbclid=IwAR1LTKcGJZGkv6qS_wElla3V3ZFd7fuZHjkhnWb2wXQBOXonhb7amLB7pJQ

And then we have Pathseekers at Beas.

It appears these may be in two different locations.

Does the Beas school serve principally residents' families in Beas?

And what of the community of working families and poor in Delhi?

And is there a charitable trust for the indigent families of the surrounding Beas community?

Delhi is a much more populated region, so certainly questions arise.

Nothing takes away from the good. But it is a question about the harm also.

In balance, One Initiated.

In balance, and open - mindedness.

You have still yet to provide any counter evidence to the old Mohali hospital sale from RSSB trust into private equity,...

https://www.cnbctv18.com/views/the-devotion-of-the-singh-brothers-of-fortis-runs-deep-into-their-businesses-63575.htm

... Or the brand new constructed 200 bed hospital for RSSB, with RSSB monies, transferred during construction into the hands of the for-profit Fortis at Mundian Kalan, Ludhiana.

https://indiankanoon.org/doc/87320658/

I think balance is good, One Initiatied, and I appreciate your pointing to the positives of RSSB's work in India.

But balance requires looking at both. One does not negate the other. They are both part of the same story...a very human story, I suspect.

[One Initiated]

Spence,

You know nothing except the news articles,
and in my opinion you are not a deserving candidate asking for the evidences.

Meanwhile, have fun!

[Spence Tepper]

Hi Ilanovitch
You wrote
"He's not pulling any punches, if there's some preconceived notion of 'perfection' that needs lancing he's going to Lance it, whatever it takes at the risk of throwing the entirely conformist GIHF perception into a tailspin he's going to test the rudder of confusion and comfortable conformity to the hilt."

You and I agree perfectly on this point.

But it means each of us must go through a crisis of personal faith, so that actual faith replaces superstition.

But even faith isn't faith. That only exists because that's his Mauj, His pleasure.

If Baba Ji wants to go to jjail, so?
God wants to spend some time in jail. He will go to save some there. His Mauj.

All he had to do was offer repayment, Ilanovitch, and you, me and the Sangat would be ramping up donations instantly. It's not an issue. He's not going there for a reason.

But he's creating this tension for His own reasons. And He wants to throw each of us into that personal tension. So we are along for the ride.

In this light, Brian is doing exactly the job Maharaji and Baba Ji are directing, and should be honored in that light.

I haven't seen a lazer beam as focused as Brian's for a very long time. It's a rare and spiritual quality.

Church of The Churchless is Baba Ji's book.

[Spence Tepper]

Hi One Initiated!
You wrote
"You know nothing except the news articles, and in my opinion you are not a deserving candidate asking for the evidences."

Actually One Initiated, I know even less than the news articles, and the court order, and the SEBI audits since I didn't write them and must interpret through my own limited mind!

But I do give myself a solid B for reading comprehension.

How do you rate yours?

[Spence Tepper]

Hi Vizpan
You asked
"How much money u all of them have got for spreading all those rumours?"

Baba Ji delivers internal payment directly every day. Yes he pays me to be here.

I ask all the time "What does this have to do with anything?"

And the only smiling answer is the same, "Yes, yes, it'meaningless, and you're doing a fine job at that. Please keep going."

[One Initiated]

yes that's what I meant, news articles. B is too high for what you've perceived. For me you've failed miserably.
Come to India for the explanation.
Don't cry in US. It's peace out there.
Appreciate what you've got, don't disgust others.
Your disgusting others' efforts, specially a struggling nation like India, is actually disgusting.

[Jesse]

"So we are all doing exactly that... judging. Including you Jesse."

Yeah, Jen. I'm pro-judgement. I think judgement and discernment are good things and I don't buy into the stupid idea that we should attempt to see non-neutral events as neutral and do hippy dances 24/7 lke Hare Krishnas pretending to live in another world.

If we don't judge then we might as well shut down courts and open jails so that rapists can continue doing their raping without us all hampering their lifestyle which in the realm of non judgement can have no effect on anyone.

Sounds ok to you right? No judgement right?

[Jesse]

One Initiated,

if you're too stupid and dishonest to explain yourself and hide your lies after commenting here every day for the past two years, you're certainly too stupid to explain yourself in India. Location isn't the issue you're dealing with. Lying and having suboptimal cognition are your challenges.

Your Guru is a fraud and he'd sell your daughter to satan for $50.

[Jen]

Jesse, I am very judgmental. I do it all the time, especially watching and judging myself, my thoughts, my words, my actions. I am a very stern master of self.

Been thinking about Gurinder and his inappropriate words that have upset some people. I think that he is using what is called a Zen shock. To break someone out of their conditional thinking. Sometimes we need a shock to break out of our own self-deception. Especially for those worshipping someone and putting that person on a pedestal. Then he will say something to shock and destroy this faulty perception. His role is to be an example, our role is to find our own enlightenment through correct thoughts and actions. Just my thoughts. Sometimes I celebrate doing the opposite, being imperfect, (very Zen) lol ...

[Arjuna]

@ Jesse - how’s the training going ? A lot of anger lol. Boxing calms the mind down / if don’t get punch drunk that is

[Spence Tepper]

Hi One Initiated
You wrote
"For me you've failed miserably."
Then please offer your own review of these facts. Provide solid education on these important matters.

Don't shout at the darkness, One Initiated, light a candle!

Every fact you haven't reviewed, investigated and confirmed that suggests Baba Ji has been deeply involved in fraud triumphs over your personal remarks. Earn a B yourself, sir!

Present evidence to defend your conclusions.

The reason is that I want to see this all go away, too.

But God damn it, facts are dragging me further and further away from the old comfortable illusions.

I'm being dragged by a bulldozer of evidence of criminal intent.

Please offer something tangible.

[Jesse]

Jen, I think you're right. Gurinder blew nearly a billion dollars of investor's money illegally and money stolen from pious poor religious devotees because spending all his time trying to get rich and not knowing what Zen even is or having a conscience at all, he's truly a Zen master.

I kind of like money, personally, so I would take his example if it weren't for the risk of jail time for doing crimes. Prison rape is a huge thing (not judging rape or rapists. just making an observation) but I'm not interested in being raped by a person of color in a prison. So I'm seeking better and lower risk examples for my money making schemes.'

Arjun, I'm not really angry. I'm just disappointed and sad that people are using this website to lure dupes into a godman cult even after the godman has been verified to be human trash.

[Spence Tepper]

Hi One Initiated
You wrote
"Appreciate what you've got, don't disgust others.
Your disgusting others' efforts, specially a struggling nation like India, is actually disgusting."

India is struggling because of the theft of its wealth at the hands of criminals. Sawan Singh used to say that there were thugs and swindlers.

Thugs stole your money at gunpoint.

But swindlers convinced you it was to your Benfit to give them everything you have. And that is what has happened.

That system will come to an end at the hands of those assigned by God to alleviate the suffering of the people.

And today it seems that sword is being wielded by our best Atheists.

[Jim Sutherland]

@ilanovitch,....You sure have an unusual Vocabulary, and way with words. Do your words flow out natuailly, as you type, or do you pause, think about what to say, search for impressive words, before sending?

Are you an Author, or a Politician? Or an Attorney or Paralegal? I’m just curious, as you don’t sound like the average educated Indian. Your Name appears to be from Croation Nationality, but like most posters here, you may be posting using a pseudo Avatar to dodge the negative Mortars that might come your way, in case you attract any Yankee Doodle Dandee Warriors looking to use you for target practice , if you get in their Cross Hairs.
Jim

[Arjuna]

@ Jesse - there is a lot of answering to do from RSSB. They need to set the record straight if the money was stolen or loaned. Not a good example.

That’s why I spend my life in a desert trying to find God without getting my ass kicked!

[One Initiated]

That's correct Spence,
But it doesn't apply where you are applying, it's the opposite actually. that's out of balance.
you have failed to comprehend. you will repent.
however Jesse is a winner in being the cheapest stock out there, he always increases his own bar on how further cheap one can go - he will repent too.

Anyways, there isn't a discussion on why the developing countries struggles, it was your disgust on some of the outstanding work being carried out on daily basis, me having first hand experience, you unknowingly disgusting based on bloated news.
Clearly that's out of balance.

[Rj]

I want all of you who haven't visited Beas ..... To experience it yourself once ...
That's it.....

[Sorav]

You have got no right to talk against about my god

[Jim Sutherland]

@One Initiated,....
When you are using your word, “ disgusting”, ........I “ presume”,..,.you really are meaning to say,.....” discussing”,.....?
Jim

[One Initiated]

hi Spence,

You used the word "tangible"
You gotta come to India to experience the perceptibility of tangible evidences.

You do not have first hand knowledge, that's why you have fallen prey to the mind and getting dragged now. this also puts huge doubts on the inner experiences. anyways, that's your own claims and why would I be judge there.
However, all this is temporary, this all will go away with the end of this body (for everyone) - the truth will be shown to everyone and to you too. but, will be very late, you won't be able to respond back here.
Same applies to Brian, think if he gets to see the bigger pictures on the sunset - will be too late and incapable of correcting the mistakes. The legacy of all these posts and comments you guys generating and leaving behind is going to be ashamed upon and being counted in the list of historically failed disciples.

You've neither seen the defunct old school nor the new one.
You've not seen the defunct hospitals nor the fully functional ones.
You've not seen the many disaster relief work carried out by the current Master (https://rssb.org/disaster_relief.html) - the many many multi-purpose shed built at extreme difficult locations.
and a very very big account of a mission (you can not even imagine in dreams) helping the needy (not documented anywhere - not even on website) - only known to the volunteers who were part of that mission and the Master. I personally know many who participated.
But with your current stand, you are incapable of perceiving the actions of Master - since the doubt has seeped deep in your heart. HE is not answerable to you. you will indeed be answerable. gotta wait for the course of time.

You really know nothing. News articles are always bloated - plus they can never capture the radiance of the activities - that's all superficial. Your (and everyone alike's) falling is a disappointment - and later you will realise it too - but later might get very very late for you.

[One Initiated]

The correct link:
https://rssb.org/disaster_relief.html

[One Initiated]

Dear Jim, long time !!

I hope you are having a good and healthy time.
It was not "discussing" I actually meant disgusting only.

[Jim Sutherland]

@One Initiated,... So you are disgusted that Spence and Brian are discussing the disgusted hide the money from Invester schemes that Malv. has been doing while blamig it on Gurinder, who is so disgusted with Malv., that he threatens to send RSSB Security after his to dolence his disgusted discussing of disgusting accusations? Sounds confusing. Asl Ilanovitch if that’s the correct way to use disgusting in the English language. He’ll know.
😇Jim

[One Initiated]

Thanks Jim,
I had a good laugh 😃

disgusting is not only being used as proverb.
What Spence are doing is so very disgusting in nature.

Well Jim, I already have a sense that you are already on the similar podium as that of Spence, So I am not expecting any continued conversation with you specially on these points of disgust because more or less I already know your stand, however, I am still repeating the points once again since you asked the explanation of what's disgusting.

The reality is different than what he is trying to project here - he hasn't even seen anything and didn't have any first hand experience anything and basically cooking up the already bloated news articles.
Considering the commendable charitable efforts on discount and bloating up the demolition of defunct systems - is only misleading the innocent disciples - he is being dragged - he is now into spreading excessive negativity... and finally knowingly or unknowingly he is setting himself for a huge embarrassment.
Also in his current state of mind he is possibly incapable of seeing things from the perspective which is needed to assert the remarkable things going on.
So yeah all this is so disgusting.

[In Search Of]

Uh oh, looks like the crazy fanatical RSSBers are starting to latch on to the posts here. The reason for this is that these posts are the only information and discussions happening on a live basis. One can immediately see the ones posting with blind faith and regurgitating the same mindless stuff discussed at house parties and so on.

No one knows anything really. Even if there is a response from the Dhillon family, it will be viewed with bias. But the comments displayed on this post and the most recent one by Brian have responses that are nonsensical and don't add anything to the debate/conversation.

Comment by Sorav : "You have got no right to talk against about my god" Baba Ji would not stand for that comment. Nor the other crazy comments on the other posts. Relax folks. Have a normal conversation and discuss the possibilities, view the numerous angles and probe the reasons and morality of the situation.

Just spouting off nonsensical stuff like that above serves no purpose and only intensifies the belief by every other person not associated with RSSB that we are all mindless beings just trolling and not presenting any meaningful insight.

No one knows what Mr. Dhillon was thinking, doing, or what his involvement was in this. Clearly there is something, but what? When your name and family members are on the board of these companies transferring obscene amounts of money back and forth, the board members must be privy to it. There's is no doubt about it. The daily day to day running of the Dera goes through the management team and so to say Baba Ji has his hands on everything day to day is not true. He handles the exceptions or when he personally sees them. I know for a fact he is more involved in the outside centers being built around the world, than he is in the day to day running of the Dera.

When the media was asking the Secretary at the Dera about Shivinder being the next in line, and his response to it saying that as a Secretary he would know if anything like that was going to happen. I call BS on that. The secretary is not going to be in the loop on that discussion, bet you $1 Billion dollars on that. He'll be in the dark until the last minute.

So everyone just freaking take a deep breath and think it through. Take the RSSB filter off the head and just look at the facts. Is it 100% for sure that the Dhillons orchestrated this mess? Probably not 100%, but definitely well over 50% chance. Which for me is quite unsettling and more so disappointing. But the faith in the teachings still holds hope that there is slim chance it's not what it seems. The mounting info and SEBI findings are definitely pointing in the direction of finding fault the Dhillon's actions..

Spence has done a great job in parsing through the data and flow of money. One thing I have to point out is that the $1 billion dollar amount includes the Daiichi settlement. Which is not part of the Dhillon scenario. The implication is that Malav and Shivi don't have the assets to pay the $500M dollar settlement, UNLESS they can get the money owed back from loans from the Dhillon companies. That's the rub.

Great discussions though, and when we stick to the findings by SEBI and the court orders, we can only use that to find any conclusions. As for me, I'm just disappointed that it's come to this. I don't discuss this with my elderly mother who's entire life has revolved around satsang and seva, and she would be devastated by the news. She would probably deny it anyways... as most RRSB flamers have proven on this blog.

Just simply disappointed.