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March 06, 2019

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This is like a strange work of art, where the artist takes 6,000 different photographs of a bird in a tree, from every possible angle, top, bottom, side, top at dawn, top at noon, top at dusk, etc... pastes them up on a huge wall, all akimbo, and the artist asks the passing art patrons,

"What do you see here?"

Most say something like "Bird..birds...bird at night, bird during the day....did you stuff the bird to get all those pictures?"

And, for some strange reason, a small group of people become extremely nervous when asked, and the answer in a question, as if they are looking for approval and are very uncomfortable about what the right answer is: "Uh......I don't know.....pictures?"

To which the artist becomes more pointed...
"Yes, yes, but pictures of what? Don't you see the bird?!"

And they reply "Bird? Bird? What are you talking about?"

And now the artist is getting a little testy and exlaims, "Bird!! 6,000 pictures of a bird! Really? Really? Do you not see THE BIRD!!??"

And these nervous patrons scurry away like frightened mice.

Yah, everyone, it's a fuckin' bird! OK?

Yeah, it's obvious ain't it...

Just follow the money trail, the charges, counter-charges, finger
pointing, sensational headlines, the suits filled against both Shivinder
and brother Malva for fraudulent loans; Malva's criminal complaint
against GSD, the promise of a death threat tape from GSD, etc.

Now twist and turn for a while in the murky world of shell corp's; peer
into the shadowy goings-on of Yuvraj, Shabnam, Rajveer, and Gurpreet.
Did I miss any? Ah, yes, I forgot Sunil Godwani too - a veritable master
at corrupting young, vulnerable minds such as Shiv and Malv"s.

Who among us could fail to see GSD, a known, heartless criminal, was
the real mastermind. The others were all lost waifs... duped, deceived,
thrown under the bus by Mr. Big.

It's just a bird in the painting for crying out loud. Are you blind?

@dungeness

Was the name dungeoness taken?

@ All
My biggest question at the moment is why we haven’t heard a peep from Sunil Godhwani. I haven’t been able to find any statements from or his attorneys. It just seems odd, like he’s holding back some information that might be realeased later. Is it possible that with the way these deals were structured Godhwani could ultimately end up taking the fall for all of this??

On the RSSB website they essentially implied that Godhwani was the culprit if you look at the way they listed linked to articles about this whole drama: https://rssb.org/articles.html

I’m getting the sense they (Dhillons) believe Sunil will ultimately be held responsible. But how could one man have been responsible for all of this? However, there are many, many issues here... an Oversight Committee (if they had one) would be accountable as well. It’s very messy. And I don’t think Godhwani or GSD have the wherewithal to repay anything close to $800M. So, what would happen if it can’t be repaid? And even if it could be repaid?

I defer to someone on this blog with a better understanding of the legalities of it all...

From the apologists. it's the same 2 specious tactics every time:

1/ Ad hom the messenger: they have a motive! they are a bad person etc. So their information must be invalid.

2/ Characterize a fairly simple money trail as a big... confusing... mess, so who knows really? Don't worry your head about it, in all this confusion anyone can believe whatever they want. And no one will ever will really know, so why not believe what you want it to be? You could very well be right.

I never see a valid approach, such as refuting the allegations or at least offering a credible scenario that exculpates GSD.


I never see a valid approach, such as refuting the allegations or at least offering a credible scenario that exculpates GSD

You mean like leaving the adjudication to real lawyers and
courts... rather than legal dilettantes in a Kangaroo Court.


Was the name dungeoness taken?

I'm sure there's a deep, sly barb in there but, hey, is
that all ya got? :)

"He without sin, caste the first stone.."

Just feel like trolling..

Unfortunately this is why saints will not rise from the West. In the eyes of the Moguls the Sikh Gurus were guilty. In the eyes of the jews Jesus was guilty. In the eyes of muslims Mohamed was guilty. Now all of this churn that is taking place Brian has found GSD guilty without even hearing his side. Brian....be very careful with allegations that you cast. You are the likes of Judas.

I have been attending satsangs from an early age. Not once has GSD claimed he is God....nor has he claimed he is perfect. He has brought up in QA sessions where he has made wrong choices. He has brought in front of the sangat last year in Haynes that we should not put him on a pedestal. He has brought up 2 years ago that we should not be attached to the physical form of the master as it is also an illusion. He has said that the real guru is the shabad. This body cannot be the guru nor can it be the disciple. That power lies within our souls.

@Someone if he is not perfect then why do people like you need him? How ironic.

@Someone yes the power lies within you, rightly said. If you have the power then why go after someone? Why treat that person as God? Don't you think what you believe is contradicting with what you wrote here?

@Dungeness Ah, I'd forgotten that one:

"We don't know anything, we're not professionals, so let the courts decide and trust the India legal process. And since we don't know anything, let's continue as we are and not draw any of our own conclusions."

Yeah, no.

Mohan was not wealthy

The Dhillons might have lent him every penny

Pay back time

No case

Phil, I assume by Mohan you mean Malivinder Singh. You're wrong. He was a billionaire prior to his financial downfall, which was aided by bad loans given to the Dhillon family. A Bloomberg story describes what happened. I'll copy in how it starts out. Note that now Gurinder Singh Dhillon has indeed been accused of criminal wrongdoing by Malvinder.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/features/2018-08-16/billionaires-and-the-guru-how-an-indian-family-lost-2-billion
--------------------------
"Along the river Beas in North India sits a sprawling spiritual commune that’s somewhere between a traditional ashram and a Florida gated community. There’s a grand meeting hall with tiered spires and pearl domes, but also tract housing and an American-style supermarket. It’s home to 8,000 devotees of the Master: Gurinder Singh Dhillon.

His group, the Radha Soami Satsang Beas, says it has more than 4 million followers worldwide. Many call him a God in human form. But in the secular world of money, Dhillon, 64, is a key character in one of the most dramatic collapses in the annals of Indian business: The unraveling of the financial and health-care empire owned by the Singh brothers, Malvinder and Shivinder.

Over the years, the brothers’ main holding company loaned about 25 billion rupees ($360 million) to the Dhillon family and property businesses largely controlled by them, according to documents and people familiar with the matter. Some of those outlays were financed with money borrowed from the Singhs’ listed companies, and when combined with other Singh investments gone bad threw their empire into a debt spiral, a Bloomberg News analysis of public records and interviews with 10 people familiar with the finances of both camps showed.

Heirs to a generations-old business house once worth billions, the brothers have in the last six months seen a dramatic fall in their fortunes. They’ve had their public shareholdings seized by lenders. They’re under a criminal probe by financial authorities over 23 billion rupees missing from their listed companies. They owe $500 million over fraud allegations related to the 2008 sale of drugmaker Ranbaxy Laboratories. They’ve also lost the family mansion. Both deny any wrongdoing.

Dhillon is a cousin of the Singhs’ mother, and he became a surrogate father to them after the death of their own in the late 1990s. Since then, the finances of the spiritual leader and the brothers have grown intertwined, with money flowing from the Singhs to the Dhillon family via loans through shell companies and an array of arcane financial instruments, according to the documents and people familiar with the matter, who asked not to be named because of the ongoing legal probes. Dhillon hasn’t been accused of any wrongdoing."

No
His father, around 1990

Phil

Phil, I don't understand what you're getting at. Mohan was a successful businessman. Read a description of his life. There's no indication that money flowed from the Dhillon's to him, since at that time the RSSB guru had very little money, to my understanding. It was only when the Singh brothers started gifting shares of stock to the Dhillon family that they became rich, I'm pretty sure.

https://www.mapsofindia.com/who-is-who/business-economy/bhai-mohan-singh-biography.html

When many many very rich satsangis donated a lot without any restriction
meaning: "New Master you do with it whatever you find useful"
Phil

Mohan was a regular businessman with debts.
Gurinder helped him out for a new start
and the. donators 100% agreed
Phil UK

Can you share any sources that back up the claim Gurinder Singh loaned the Singh brothers’ grandfather money? I didn’t see any indication of this in my admittedly brief Googling of Bhai Mohan Singh. So please share some links that describe these loans. Or at least tell us the source of your information.

My family gave 10M with tremendous JOY
Now YOU spend some dollars on research "Religare" and next ask forgiveness
I hate writing here, my son asked to do this.
Phil UK

Forgiveness for what? For sharing reports of the RSSB guru’s financial wrongdoing? I’ll never apologize for that. Nothing you’ve said, Phil, takes away from the facts reported in the Indian financial press about illegal loans to the Dhillon family that siphoned money from public companies into private hands. Good try on your attempt to excuse the guru’s actions, but you failed.

@Phil but the issue is that the money wasn't theirs to give GSD. It was embezzled from a public company. That's why the brothers are in deep ****.

PJ, excellent point. I've been following the Dhillon family's connection to Religare since 2010, when it was first revealed the extent of the shares of stock in this company that were being essentially gifted to the Dhillons by Malvinder and Shivinder Singh -- initiates of the guru who also are his cousins.

I discussed this in several blog posts. Bottom line: back in 2010 the shares sold to the Dhillon's at a very low price ended up being worth about $254 million as of December 2010. So the Dhillon family was getting money from Religare, not loaning money to the company as Phil wrongly said in a comment above.

It's hard to understand why the RSSB guru and his family made shady business deals after they already had a quarter of a billion dollars. I guess a lust for wealth knows no bounds. Here's links to some of my blog posts about the connections between Religare and RSSB. Essentially it was being run by RSSB insiders to benefit the guru and his family.

https://hinessight.blogs.com/church_of_the_churchless/2010/04/the-big-money-surrounding-radha-soami-satsang-beas.html

https://hinessight.blogs.com/church_of_the_churchless/2010/04/rssbs-ties-to-religare-mix-money-and-spirituality.html

https://hinessight.blogs.com/church_of_the_churchless/2010/12/radha-soami-satsang-beas-guru-makes-250-million.html

Phil, are you saying that your family contributed $10 million for what I assume were shares in Religare at the request, or behest, of Gurinder Singh Dhillon after he became the guru of RSSB? If so, that would be a decidedly unethical thing for the guru to do.

For one thing, it would mix spirituality and money in an unseemly fashion -- akin to Christian TV evangelists who ask people to send in donations because this is a godly thing to do. For another thing, I'm pretty sure the founders of Religare were the Singh brothers, who are the guru's cousins. So this would mix spirituality and family business.

As noted in my previous post, the Dhillon family ended up getting shares of Religare via insider trading deals (not at all illegal, but common, as noted in one of the posts) at a very low price. So if my assumption above is true, and correct me if I'm wrong, the Dhillon family personally benefitted from money contributed by RSSB initiates to Religare.

@Phil
You’ve confirmed the many rumors I’ve heard about satsangis donated very large amounts of money even their estates left by will to RSSB... I’m assuming that went to RSSB and not to Gurinder personally. If GSD actually accepted that money directly for himself and family, that would completely go against the Sant Mat Maters’ stance on accepting gifts.

Then the question arises, did GSD take money or “receive” money directly or indirectly from RSSB seva accounts.

Hi Phil
You wrote
"When many many very rich satsangis donated a lot without any restriction
meaning: "New Master you do with it whatever you find useful"
Phil"

Wow Phil. You say Gurindar and other Satsangis became a private loan equity 'Brotherhood' in decades past? And all these fraudulent unpaid zero collateral loans over the last ten years at Fortis and Religare using other people's money are a secret repayment to Gurindar and this secret loan society?
Is the corruption really that bad?
Surely something is lost in the translation.

Maybe you didn't mean to,
But you are painting an even darker picture of Gurindar, and his secret money laundering club, than the press. How does your remark make Gurinder look better?

What am I missing?


Back in London
Brian
It's in no way your business
Are you soliciting for 'KAL" for the next period of time?
Why could a SatGuru not ask a favor for His friends
Much went to Nepal also, . Slussz. this subject
I can testify in a court of Law when there are no papers anymore and show the bank transfers
but never here

P in UK

Keep on with the witch hunt it's putting you in good stead with Daram Rai, I'm sure you're earning huge benefit in your meditation by "exposing" RSSB "unethical" (insider) trading between cousin siblings and familial beneficiaries of a dynastic inheritance from great grandfathers benevolences to modern day eventuality. And who, by karmic decree inherited their fathers pharmaceutical business which went public and some proceeds went into speculative property investments.

Your 'great zealous sewa' is earning you great plaudits in the magnanimous (excited) ex-community at the expectancy to see RSSB crash and burn.

Who knows whether all your fervent subversive journalism at gnawing at the roots of the institutes foundations isn't all part of the greater grand scheme.

After all, every rise and every fall within the annals of empirical history all fall within the scope of the Grand Plan, and every small beginning that mushrooms into a thriving community or into a vast organization has to have some pruning of it's own unbridled growth in order to focus on the real intention of it's initial inception.

@Dungeness
Yes, best I could do... barbs aren’t my specialty.

@Phil
Kal isn’t real. GSD confirmed that. He doesn’t believe in Kal and that’s one thing we have in common—maybe the only thing, but at least we’ve got that... lol

https://www.bloombergquint.com/business/indian-hospital-tycoon-accuses-brother-spiritual-guru-of-fraud#gs.0j5uw4

According to this source, the Economic Offenses Wing of the New Delhi police is actively investigating the matter. I'll wait for their conclusions, as I feel it's impossible to accurately judge the allegations through what journalists tell us is true. Interesting though that the story says Gurinder hasn't advised the brothers since 2011, when he underwent treatment for cancer. If true, that seems to suggest Gurinder's condition is currently semi-invalid?

Anyway, to the point made by others about how the Perfect Master concept is to blame for this scandal. First of all, all we have are allegations that have yet to be proven, so at this point, this is a scandal only in the sense of journalistic sensation, and not in settled court cases. And so as far as Gurinder being nailed for illegal acts, the count is currently still zero, from now, and also the 20 years Gurinder has been guru of RSSB. Then there were the 40 years of Charan Singh. No scandal. The Jagat Singh term, likewise no scandal (unless you believe the scuttlebutt from the Kirpalites). Sawan Singh's term, clean. Jaimal Singh before him, clearn. And then Shiv Dayal. A money lender! But here too, no crimes on his record. Then there's Rai Saligram and his line(s) - - clean.

Taken all together, that's a lot of years and a lot of "Perfect Masters," but no actual scandals to speak of. This seems to throw cold water on the idea that Sant Mat's Perfect Master concept leads to corruption. It is true that Sant Mat has had corrupt gurus, such as the reprehensible Thakar Singh, and also true that guru shysters have exploited their followers using the Perfect Master concept. But their bad examples don't show that the Perfect Master concept necessarily leads to bad results.

Moreover, history shows us that the Perfect Master concept was a major motive force in the development of RSSB deras and other deras that contribute to the commonweal of their respective regions. A recent report shows that the world's most polluted cities are mostly in India; the deras' example of clean development, free medical aid, free food, etc, are all social movements that are inextricably linked to and motivated by their worker's devotion to the Perfect Master theology. Then there are the millions of satsangis who likewise say they owe a better life to their acceptance of the Perfect Master concept.

To make a fair judgment, gotta look at both sides of the ledger.

Actually jay, if you're looking at "both sides of the ledger" the credits from Shiv Dayal Singh through to Gurinder Singh Dhillon FAR outweigh the debits. (whether there even are any substantial debits to speak of, unless one ventures to consider all those fictitious type debits etched within disgruntled self-serving, self-excommunicated minds)

There’s a very broad spectrum of perspectives here... I think one thing we need to keep in mind and respect is that a blog and it’s comments provide an open forum for people to “discuss and debate” relevant issues. So, if you don’t agree with something someone posts in their comments that’s fine, but don’t tell them they shouldn’t be engaged in a conversation about the issue and deny them the right to express their opinions. Obviously this will be settled in a court of law eventually but that doesn’t mean we don’t have the right to speculate. Technically we’re all spectators.

Nobody is "denying" anybody any rights at free speech and debate, (after all none have control over the moderation button other than the author of the blog)

All that is prevailing is that as jay put it, we're looking at both sides of the spectrum (ledger) and if / when you look with an unjaundiced non negating, open mind at the RSSB ledger at large, if you're entirely honest, then the plusses (credits) far outweigh the minus's (debits) by some extensive distance.

dont you see whats goin on here chief ? your in love with this Baba guy !!!!!!!!!

Hi Ilanovitch
You wrote
"All that is prevailing is that as jay put it, we're looking at both sides of the spectrum (ledger) and if / when you look with an unjaundiced non negating, open mind at the RSSB ledger at large, if you're entirely honest, then the plusses (credits) far outweigh the minus's (debits) by some extensive distance."

This might work if you were trying to judge someone 's character.
But that is entirely unrelated to the evidence of fraud and the setting up of a scheme of corporate robberies. Who is to blame? The courts will assess that.

I don't think we can do anything but see the facts that have been well documented. The Dhillon family and Baba Ji in particular were the recipients of these loans over ten years. Loans that were given in secret and which violated the law. These are proven facts

Now Fortis has asked the Securities and Exchange Board of India to arrest Malvinder, precisely because he and Shivinder robbed the company. And where did they hide the stolen goods over all these years? Year after year they gave the stolen monies to Gurinder and Subnam, his wife, and the Dhillon family. To the total sum of several hundred million dollars.

For years Baba Ji, his wife and other members of his family took the stolen money and said nothing. And while these were loans, not a penny was repaid. And the loans were made in secret without any collateral in violation of the law. And they are still remaining silent. Nothing paid back, no promises to do so.

These statements are not depictions of any person's character.

They are documented facts of one of the largest series of corporate robberies in India 's history.

Statements about the character of anyone are personal judgments. Not facts. We should not judge anyone.

But justice is important. When nearly a billion dollars have been stolen, naturally it is important to know who actually received that money. To steal and to accept hundreds of millions of dollars stolen from a healthcare system demands justice. It's very straightforward. And it is already fact that Baba Ji and his family were the recipients year in and year out.

Hi Ilanovitch
You wrote
"All that is prevailing is that as jay put it, we're looking at both sides of the spectrum (ledger) and if / when you look with an unjaundiced non negating, open mind at the RSSB ledger at large, if you're entirely honest, then the plusses (credits) far outweigh the minus's (debits) by some extensive distance."

This might work if you were trying to judge someone 's character.
But that is entirely unrelated to the evidence of fraud and the setting up of a scheme of corporate robberies. Who is to blame? The courts will assess that.

I don't think we can do anything but see the facts that have been well documented. The Dhillon family and Baba Ji in particular were the recipients of these loans over ten years. Loans that were given in secret and which violated the law. These are proven facts

Now Fortis has asked the Securities and Exchange Board of India to arrest Malvinder, precisely because he and Shivinder robbed the company. And where did they hide the stolen goods over all these years? Year after year they gave the stolen monies to Gurinder and Subnam, his wife, and the Dhillon family. To the total sum of several hundred million dollars.

For years Baba Ji, his wife and other members of his family took the stolen money and said nothing. In fact they participated in these robberies by signing the loan documents that promised in writing b they would repay them with interest. Every promise has been broken and no effort to repay has been made by Gurinder or any member of his family.

Does that reflect on someone's character? That is for each person to decide for themselves. It depends on one's standards of right and wrong. But it is only necessary at this point to acknowledge the facts, which fully justify legal investigation and action.

These were loans, signed by Baba Ji's wife and other Gurinder family members, and not a penny has been repaid. And the loans were made in secret without any collateral in violation of the law. And they are still remaining silent. Nothing paid back, no promises to do so.

These statements are not depictions of any person's character.

They are documented facts of one of the largest series of corporate robberies in India 's history.

Statements about the character of anyone are personal judgments. Not facts. We should not judge anyone.

But justice is important. When nearly a billion dollars have been stolen, naturally it is important to know who actually received that money. To steal and to accept hundreds of millions of dollars stolen from a healthcare system demands justice. To sign hundreds of millions of dollars worth of promissory notes to repay hundreds of millions in loans, and to keep signing new loans even when you haven't been paying off any of the others does raise a question of character. But what is important is the documented fact that this is what the Dhillon family was doing several times a year, year over year. The facts are very straightforward. It is already fact that Baba Ji and his family signed notes to take this money and repay with interest, but then break those written promises even as they were signing new notes taking even more money on promises they were not going to keep. Year in and year out.

Hi Ilanovitch
You wrote
"All that is prevailing is that as jay put it, we're looking at both sides of the spectrum (ledger) and if / when you look with an unjaundiced non negating, open mind at the RSSB ledger at large, if you're entirely honest, then the plusses (credits) far outweigh the minus's (debits) by some extensive distance."

It it is an axiom of history that the bee that fertilizes the flower also robs it.

And it is also another axiom that the gods first make mad with power and wealth those they seek to destroy.

But these axioms refer to fallable human beings, including those who might pose for generations as something more for their own gain. Saints, on the other hand, don't act that way.

To weight crimes and heroic acts upon the scale of human judgment in an effort to assess someone's character is bound to be biased by our own culture and conditioning. In the case of a true Sant Sat Guru it is completely unnecessary, since their conduct is above all standards of comparison and beyond reproach. No true Saint takes other people's money they didn't earn year after year without repayment. They earn their own living. They simplify their life to match their means. Worldly gain is simply not a part of their lifestyle.

But trying to make such a judgment is entirely unnecessary and unrelated to the evidence of fraud and the setting up of a scheme of corporate robberies. Who is to blame? The courts will assess that.

I don't think we can do anything but see the facts that have been well documented. The Dhillon family and Baba Ji in particular were the recipients of these loans over more than a decade. Loans that were given in secret and which violated the law. These are proven facts.

Now after three independent audits (Deloite, and then Grant Thornton for Luthra and Luthra , and now the SEBI, Fortis has asked the Securities and Exchange Board of India (SEBI) to arrest Malvinder, precisely because he and Shivinder robbed the company. And Malvinder has provided the SEBI with written documentation that he pleaded with Gurinder to acknowledge the debts and work to repay they loans but without response.

So where did Malvinder and Shivinder hide the stolen goods over all these years? Year after year they gave the stolen monies to Gurinder and Subnam, his wife, and the Dhillon family. To the total sum of several hundred million dollars.

For years Baba Ji, his wife and other members of his family took the stolen money and said nothing. In fact they participated in these robberies. by signing the loan documents that promised in writing they would repay them with interest. Every promise has been broken and no effort to repay has been made by Gurinder or any member of his family.

Does that reflect on someone's character? That is for each person to decide for themselves. It depends on one's standards of right and wrong. But it is only necessary at this point to acknowledge the facts, which fully justify legal investigation and action.

These were loans, signed by Baba Ji's wife and other Gurinder family members, and not a penny has been repaid. And the loans were made in secret without any collateral in violation of the law. And they are still remaining silent. Nothing paid back, no promises to do so.

These statements are not depictions of any person's character.

They are documented facts of one of the largest series of corporate robberies in India 's history.

Statements about the character of anyone are personal judgments. Not facts. We should not judge anyone.

But facts are important. When nearly a billion dollars have been stolen, naturally it is important to know who actually received that money. To steal from other innocent parties and to accept hundreds of millions of dollars stolen from a healthcare system demands justice. To sign hundreds of millions of dollars worth of promissory notes in the form of loan documents to repay hundreds of millions in loans, and to keep signing new loans even when you haven't been paying off any of the others does raise a question of character. But what is important is the documented fact that this is what the Dhillon family was doing, year over year. The facts are very straightforward.

@ilanovitch
And? I’m not condemning GSD. I honestly don’t know who did what in this whole convoluted fuck up. I can’t even keep up with endless string of companies they created. Several questions arise here, though. One being is RSSB a religion (YES). Is there a lot of money and wealth flowing in and out of this religion (YES). Is there one guy/leader in this mix that calls all the shots and continuously says, “It’s my way or the highway” (YES). Even if GSD were innocent he’d be “guilty” of appointing unqualified individuals to take on the roles of managing the flow of money into and out of his companies. I mean, if we say GSD is innocent then we have to say that he’s just really, really, really bad at choosing and appointing the right people for the right positions, i.e., Godhwani. We would have to agree that he’s not some infallible GIHF. He’s a leader that makes mistakes. He’s a regular guy with a lot of responsibility and clearly a lot of shit fell through the cracks. Just something to think about...

Was Jesus responsible for the actions of Judas?

Was Jesus at fault for choosing and accepting Judas as part of his inner circle or a close disciple?

Pema Tej, Jesus turned over the tables of the money lenders, and angrily threw them out of the temple.
Gurindar's RHC is an investment firm....One of the largest in India....Who is the "Jesus" in this current story, and who is the "Judas"?

Interesting comment Spence🌟

Pema Tej
Is it Maharaji's fault that Gurinder fell?

@ Spencer - how do we know Master has fallen. Are you sure we haven’t ? That includes me-by the way.

Peace and love

Sant Mat is not a religion. Not yet at this juncture in time

Radha Soami Mat could have the beginning characteristics of a religious belief system if there is no enlightened patron at it's head steering it towards the principle of elevated spiritual teaching and meditation.

I don't view it as a religion now nor during the patronage of Maharaj Charan Singh, Sardar Bahadur Jagat Singh, Huzur Maharaj Baba Sawan Singh, Baba Jaimal Singh or Seth Shiv Dayal Soami Ji Maharaj.

That is 6 generations of custodianship by 6 RS masters.

That does not mean it won't become a religion as did Christianity Buddhism Judaism Zoroastrianism Islam Sikhism etc. once it becomes removed from being managed by a spiritual patron in contact with anhad shabd.

Spence Tepper

"Who is to blame? The courts will assess that."

Yes the courts will assess it, not you nor the snapping scavenger jackals with the scent of innocent blood in their revengeful nostrils. Nor the misplaced self appointed prosecutors judges and jury in the pseudo kangaroo courts out here in far fetched blogsville.

Hi Ilanovitch

The evidence of fraud is factual evidence.
Baba Ji taking the money without repayment for over a decade is fact.

A human being can draw their own conclusions, based on these facts.

Other facts might come to light to explain why the fraud to place.

But facts have established this read fraud. And the money went to Baba Ji in secret, but with his wife's signature and full knowledge, year in and year out.

Those facts don't change. You are welcome to add more facts that help explain these proven events.

But, yes it happened. It's a picture of a bird, however you look at it.


For years Baba Ji, his wife and other members of his family took the stolen money and said nothing. In fact they participated in these robberies. by signing the loan documents that promised in writing they would repay them with interest. Every promise has been broken and no effort to repay has been made by Gurinder or any member of his family.

Getting down in the weeds, who among this rogue's gallery
actually sighed the loans? On whose authority? Have actual
documents been cited and examined by signatories and
accredited financial experts? Did GSD and family have a
financial advisor? What were representations and/or advice
made by him/her? The "Family Agreement" as I recall concludes
with an implied promise to "settle accounts". What's that mean?
Could that cryptic statement have included broadly some plan
for repayment of the loans?

I'm not trying to obscure, deflect from, or in any way excuse the
Dhillons as a target of investigations but it still seems to me that
there's still much to be revealed. Weedy, confusing legalese that
could shed more light... even though, some, of course, are "99%
sure that the Dhillons -especially that sleazy 'Baba'- was behind it
all".

“Revengful nostills”??? Who says this right now..
Ilanovitch?

What about that other Sant Mat guru and his finances?

A 2 million dollar home in the best part of Chicagoland.
Luxury cars, including at least one Porsche.
Putting two children through medical school
Plus all the other expenses of daily life for his family
Plus the costs of travel to India and other countries
It's a lot of money every year.
But no job?
Where does the money come from?

Where does all the money come from to support Rajinder Singh's lifestyle?
No answers, just the assurance that Rajinder just couldn't possibly be taking money from SOS. Not Rajinder! It's inconceivable, unthinkable, that he could be taking a penny from the tax-free organization with which he has total control.

Yet there he is in a 2 million dollar home, with God knows how much $ in the bank.
His brother just gave him all that money? Well, maybe, but whether he did or not, it's another instance where the Kirpal gurus fail to live up to what they preach. Kirpal preached was that a guru must stand on his own financially. Rajinder isn't doing that. No way. He's getting millions from somewhere, that much is certain. That he's earning this money? Puh-lease!

Rajinder wasn't honest with the public, or the Sangat, as he's been pretending to live off his earnings as a retired electronics engineer. No way around that.

Yikes. I have no idea why people implicitly trust any of the gurus in the Kirpal succession when it's clear they've lied over and over again. Kirpal lied about his authorization to be Sawan's successor. He also lied about not appointing a family member as guru. He lied about having powers that other gurus don't have. And hat lie about being able to give a God Experience at initiation is the big lie that Darshan and Rajinder kept alive in their missions. It's a lie repeated over and over again with every SOS book sold, every satsang talk, every initiation.

The claim that Rajinder was a founding member Mac Duggal's business? Funny that Mac Duggal doesn't mention anything about that in his interview. What he says is that it fell completely on him, Mac Duggall, to support his elder brother Rajinder and his family. He doesn't mention Rajinder having any input in his business success.

The claim that Rajinder couldn't be taking funds from SOS? I won't say that I know Rajinder is also taking money from SOS. But I know absolutely that it's totally untrue that "there are too many eyes on it" that such as thing couldn't happen. Whoever runs a religious non-profit is in total control of the organization's funds, and isn't obligated to share financial details with anyone. U.S. law allows religious non-profits to operate in near total financial secrecy. They don't have to publish a 990 report, which regular non-profits are required to publicly post every year. And if other Duggal family members are officers in the non-profit, would you really expect them to blow the whistle on their family member guru if he's doing money seva to himself?

"There are too many eyes on it." Right. How many eyes were on Sai Baba, Thakar Singh, Trungpa, Muktananda. Goodness gracious, think of any guru with a now known sketchy career. They all had lots of eyes on them, for years. The problem was that those looking at the guru had a ready spiritual excuse for his actions.

Doesn't seem to be a good excuse for how Rajinder Singh owns luxury cars and lives in a 2 million dollar home, and yet hasn't had a paying job in over 30 years.

Is Rajinder Singh really a "manager" at Sofbang?
https://www.bbb.org/us/il/westmont/profile/information-technology-services/sofbang-llc-0654-88482553

I mean, really? Or was he added to the company payroll by satsangi Ribet, given a title and mailed regular checks for services not ever rendered? I think you know the likely answer to that.

Quite a lot of opinion these days about Gurinder Singh in the infallible court of journalism. Fair play to that.
But where is the curiosity about how Rajinder Singh became a millionaire while working full time as a guru?
"Oh, not Rajinder. You see, he's the one honest guru." That's what satsangis are thinking, wherever they live, while their guru rides in style in a Porsche and lives in the swankest accommodations. Yes, it's the old story once again.

It's funny. Sant mat has always advertised itself as being distinctly better than other spiritual paths, not only because of the sound and light connection but very much also because it claims to be the MOST HONEST of paths, partly because it has the MOST HONEST gurus.

But all this stuff about the guru being honest and living strictly on his means turns out to be nothing less than a lie. And yet, the satsangis of respective sant mat don't care at all. They reason that there must be a spiritual reason for why Charan Singh somehow never worked for 40 years yet died wealthy, why Gurinder has millions of dollars at his disposal yet no employment income, and why Rajinder Singh has become quite wealthy.

Everyone wants to hold the other guy's guru accountable. But when it comes to their guru, excuses, excuses.


Several questions arise here, though. One being is RSSB a religion (YES). Is there a lot of money and wealth flowing in and out of this religion (YES). Is there one guy/leader in this mix that calls all the shots and continuously says, “It’s my way or the highway” (YES).

Re: religion
RSSB is a mystical path. It can't credibly be panned as a religion.
Most of its followers are religious though... blindly so :).

Re: money
Lotsa ebb and flow of big bucks. Same for many organizations.
Of course, if malfeasance is proven, shame on all involved...

Re: "My way or the highway".
Oh, multitudes just ignore him or even give Him the finger if he
does :) You're absolutely free to. But, wait, there's more good
news. Unlike a cult, RSSB won't threaten, beat, or banish "sinners"
who do so.


We would have to agree that he’s not some infallible GIHF. He’s a leader that makes mistakes. He’s a regular guy with a lot of responsibility and clearly a lot of shit fell through the cracks. Just something to think about...

Yep, I agree. The outer GIHF is part of the drama. But the mystic
discipline is to "travel" inside yourself to see what's really going on.

These fake gurus should be put behind bars, they don't have a place in society.
I don't know about Rajinder, but i'm disappointed with Gurinder, for 20 years i worshipped him and even when i found out about the truth through David Lane's work, I still respected Gurinder.
He was still somebody i looked up to, one of the things he used to say when asked about what to do before getting initiation was be a good human. This was always in my mind, and i saw him as an example.

But he is selfish and doesn't care about his satsangis that do so much work for him, they work tirelessly all day to build centers and houses for him.
I hope he gets what is coming to him

Hi Dungeness!
You ask
"Have actual
documents been cited and examined by signatories and
accredited financial experts?"

Yes. Fortis has an independent accountant, as per legal requirements for a publicly held company, Deloitte. They refused to sign off on Fortis' annual statement, siting impropriety in the siphoning of funds which they had discovered.

Fortis engaged law firm Luthra and Luthra who then subcontracted with another accountancy, Grant Thornton Co., who confirmed and followed the loans to their destination. They were signed at Fortis by Malvinder and Shivinder, and by the loanee company principles (Subnam Singh, Gurinder's wife, and other members of the Dhillon family).

Then the SEBI got involved, and confirmed these went with signed consent promising repayment, as zero collateral loans, to the Dhillon family companies.

And now the crime wing of that bureau is in the midst of their own investigation as well.

But in October of last year, the Securities and Exchange Board completed their preliminary review, concluded that this was fraud, and further, ordered the Singh Brothers and the Dhillon-led companies to pay up quickly, or risk severe penalty.

"SINGH BROTHERS, OTHERS ASKED TO REPAY RS 403CR TO FORTIS
Wed, 10/17/2018 - 11:48 EDT - The Economic Times
RDF10
NEW DELHI: In a potential blow to former Fortis Healthcare promoters Malvinder and Shivinder Singh, the Securities and Exchange Board of India (SEBI) has directed the brothers and eight entities related to them to repay the hospital group over Rs400 crore that were earlier transferred as inter-corporate deposits. SEBI's order on Wednesday, which came following a preliminary investigation into alleged diversion of funds from Fortis by the Singhs, has found these transactions to be "fraudulent" in nature.The regulator has sought a detailed investigation into the modus operandi of the entire fraud by way of which funds were allegedly diverted from Fortis to its promoters and also said that other third parties such as banks and auditors would also come under the purview of such investigation.SEBI, in its interim order, has issued directions to Fortis to "take all necessary steps" to recover Rs403 crore along with due interest within three months from the Singhs and entities controlled by them, including RHC Holding Pvt Ltd, Religare Finvest Ltd, Shivi Holdings Pvt Ltd and Malav Holdings Pvt Ltd. The regulator has also clarified that the Singhs and these entities will jointly and severally repay this amount to Fortis within the stipulated time.Pending completion of SEBI's investigation and till further order, the Singhs and these eight entities shall not dispose of or alienate any of their assets or divert any funds, except to repay Fortis and for meeting expenses of day-to-day business operations, without SEBI's prior permission. The Singhs have also been directed not to associate themselves with the affairs of Fortis "in any manner whatsoever, till further directions," stated the order.SEBI began investigating the transactions in February following a news report that stated that the brothers had withdrawn close to Rs 500 crore from Fortis without the board's prior approval.According to its order, the regulator found that Fortis, through a subsidiary, had made ICDs of over Rs470 crore to three companies.SEBI's order noted that the ICD transactions entered into by Fortis with the three entities - Best Healthcare, Fern Healthcare and Modland Wears - between 30 June 2016 to 30 June 2017 were "prime facie fictitious and fraudulent in nature".

https://www.bullfax.com/?q=node-singh-brothers-others-asked-repay-rs-403cr-fortis

Dungeness, Fraud by Gurinder and the Singhs has ALREADY been established by the Bureau.

They have been given a small window to pay up, or suffer further legal action.

Please note Dungeness, that the SEBI determination to fraud and the order to repay isn't limited to the Singh brothers but, as their investigation has proven, includes the Dhillon run companies. These also carry culpability for the fraud, as determined by the SEBI audit.

OK, I’m going to stop beating around the bush here. Is Gurinder guilty? Yes.

Now, I’m going to stop trying to be open-minded and move on to the more interesting discussions on atheism.

Spence, great short summary of the RSSB guru's financial follies. I'll probably share your comment in a blog post soon to give it more visibility.


Dungeness, Fraud by Gurinder and the Singhs has ALREADY been established by the Bureau.

Hi Spence,

Yes, I saw the regulator's order that the target entities are jointly
and severally liable. The sheriff's banging on the door alright
and, from the sound of it, may well be back with criminal
indictments too. Whether loans are repaid or not...

Not to sound like the Deflector-in-Chief, but it's not clear to
me, who, representing those entities, signed off on the loans.
All the officers I'm sure are ultimately liable for repayment and
share responsibility but, I can envision the actual fraud occurring
without the complicity of all. I'm sure there are ways to circumvent
the many corporate safeguards unfortunately. A small cabal can
grease palms, forge, cook the books for instance. Ain't Encron an
example. Who knows until we see what unfolds.

That said, it is surprising that GSD hasn't been more transparent
about the issue. Of course, that may be on the advice of counsel.
Even if it's the one accused of sending Malva an alleged "death
threat". Hey, if both are convicted, they may be "cellies".

You will note, Dungeness, that Gurinder has not denied the determination of fraud by the companies he, his wife and sons own, and the three month window has now passed.

'the ICD transactions entered into by Fortis with the three entities - Best Healthcare, Fern Healthcare and Modland Wears - between 30 June 2016 to 30 June 2017 were "prime facie fictitious and fraudulent in nature".'

fictitious and fraudulent...

Sonya, Spence Tepper, and other self appointed judges prosecutors and members of the unqualified jury, including the rest of the conscientious do-gooders

Why don't you confront Gurinder Singh strait up to his face, accuse him of all these heinous crimes against unsuspecting humanity directly?

Don't you have the gumption gall or the strength of your out right conviction to make your accusations directly that you huddle in small backbiting accusatory groups of disenchanted judgement under security of anonymous cyberspace

Or is it simply that as easy it is to cast your unqualified judgments out in irreverent blogs of self regulated convictu, you're just plain unabashed chicken? | 

Quote of the Day from RSSB website

"Every man takes the limits of his own field of vision for the limits of the world."

— Arthur Schopenhauer —

Mention of article below from India press also from RSSB website. Who's hiding behind the veils of secret illicit insider trading ?

"In RSSB we have always maintained an open policy and therefore we want to share these articles which have appeared in the Indian Press."

How the Singh brothers became victims of a realty play
23 July 2018 / Economic Times

The Billionaires and The Guru: How a Family Burned Through $2 Billion
16 August 2018 / Bloomberg

"Loans that were given in secret and which violated the law. These are proven facts" Spence Tepper

No they're not "proven facts" these are assumed deduction in yours and other presumptuous minds and therefore as yet "unproven".

Hi Ilanovitch
Fraud is fraud. SEBI has already concluded that the Dhillon-owned companies are guilty of Fraud and ordered them to repay now under threat of penalty, and also ordered Fortis to aggressively pursue repayment.

If you have some other information that will provide a broader field of vision on this, please share.

Add whatever facts you know about these fraudulent interactions that will give us an entirely different understanding of Gurindar's role.

As of today he had not publicly accepted responsibility for what happened involving his wife and family, nor has he denied it. And that is quite the opposite of transparency.

Please broaden my view, or please let the facts broaden yours.

No I don't buy your out right conviction judgement

You've already heard judged and concluded the case in your own mind outside of a regulated court of law and made your presumptuous conclusion

You have categorised prejudiced and convicted Gurinder Singh Dhillon as a fraudulent criminal before any hearing has taken place in a bone fide court of law, that's grounds for prejudiced unqualified defamation.

ilanovitch, you're getting boringly repetitive. Start saying something different, or expect to have your comments unpublished. Spence asked you if you had any information that contradicts the facts about Gurinder Singh Dhillon's financial wrongdoing. Apparently you don't have any facts. You just keep blathering on about people with the facts being prejudiced against the RSSB guru.

Actually, you are the prejudiced person, because you refuse to look at the facts. You just keep criticizing those who, like Spence, have taken the time and trouble to inform themselves about the guru's misdeeds. So you've been warned. Your repetitive comments are sounding very troll-like. I don't like Internet trolls. Start to think for yourself. Stop saying the same thing over and over.

Hi Ilanovitch
Hm. The article I cited above detailed the order given by the Securities and Exchange Board of India. This is their legal ruling.

'Fictitious and Fradulent' is their legal judgment after several months of review of the loans between the Singhs and Gurinder 's companies. And their order for both to repay Fortis now is a legal judgment, holding both culpable.

According to Wikipedia
"The Securities and Exchange Board of India is the regulator for the securities market in India. It was established in 1988 and given statutory powers on 30 January 1992 through the SEBI Act, 1992"

And you may learn more about the legal powers of the SEBI here

https://www.sebi.gov.in/powers-and-functions.html

They have the legal power to search and seizure, to hold hearings, tender judgment, as well as to levy severe penalties, and they have done so already.

Guilty. Gurinder' s companies and the Singhs in their loan transactions using Fortis money are found to be guilty of activity that was...

"Fictitious and Fraudulent."

They are both responsible and are both ordered to repay the loans now or suffer severe penalty. And in addition Fortis is ordered to aggressively pursue repayment from both the Singhs and Gurindar's companies.

Now let's examine what this legal judgment against Gurindar's companies, family owned and family run, means....

"Fictitious."

Wikipedia defines Fictitious as....
"
not real or true, being imaginary or having been fabricated.
"she pleaded guilty to stealing thousands in taxpayer dollars by having a fictitious employee on her payroll
synonyms: false, fake, counterfeit, fabricated, sham;..."

And the SEBI concluded the Singhs and Gurinder 's companies were both...

" Fraudulent

obtained, done by, or involving deception, especially criminal deception.
"the fraudulent copying of American software"
unjustifiably claiming or being credited with particular accomplishments or qualities.
"he unmasked fraudulent psychics"
synonyms: dishonest, cheating, swindling, corrupt, criminal, illegal, unlawful, illicit, against the law; More
deceitful, double-dealing, duplicitous, Janus-faced, dishonorable, unscrupulous, unfair, unjust, unethical, unprincipled;
informalcrooked, sharp, shady, tricky, shifty, dirty;
informal. bent, dodgy;
informal. shonky
"he was convicted of fraudulent share dealing"
Wikipedia

Interesting that Wikipedia then says

"antonyms: honest, above board"

The Singhs and Gurinder 's family run companies were, by the legal judgment of the SEBI, the opposite, the antonym of honesty and above board conduct.


So Brian and Spence you have concluded Gurinder Singh Dhillon is guilty of fraud against the state? Or against who?

Is this yours or SEBI's final ruling?

Ilanovitch, I have only cited the SEBI legal judgment and order.

I think we can leave judgment to the government body responsible to make such legal judgments and penalties.

They have already done their job. Legally, Gurinder is guilty and responsible. But as Gurinder has not come to the hearings, not offered his position, nor payed back the loans, the courts will likely be next.

But as to guilt, that has already been established by the governing body responsible. Verdict? Guilty.


Ilanovitch, you asked
"fraud against the state? Or against who?"

Fraud against Fortis, crippled irreparably and forced to shutter hospitals, limit patient access and sell off assets in pieces. Fraud against the shareholders, fraud against the hospital and clinic patients. Fraud against Healthcare in India, now burdened with greater debt.

He rides his limousine over the backs of the sick and crippled, to a Satsang to speak about kindness and love

I haven't seen any verdict of "guilty" issued by SEBI or the state of India, have you?

"He rides his limousine over the backs of the sick and crippled, to a Satsang to speak about kindness and love"

That is quite a statement of unabashed accusation

Hope you are 100% accurate in your forthright accusing
You don't want to be wrong about such a definite conclusion

Hi Ilanovitch
Right or wrong the SEBI has rendered their legal judgment and made their regulatory orders.

Do you disagree with their determination and order?


They have already done their job. Legally, Gurinder is guilty and responsible. But as Gurinder has not come to the hearings, not offered his position, nor payed back the loans, the courts will likely be next.

Legally, it's the corp. entity and its officers that are "guilty and
responsible", isn't it? Was GSD the sole officer or was Shabnam
involved at an executive level as well? How about Sunil? Others?

Are you prepared to categorically assert that GSD alone had
foreknowledge of crimes, participated in, planned, or abetted
their commission, or that other parties could not have engaged
in fraud while he was on tour? Or even under his nose?

Is there a corp. atty? Wouldn't he be more likely to respond on
behalf of the corp. entity? Allegedly, of course, he had already
sent a "death threat" to Malva. If GSD's atty is silent now, is it due
to his own potential indictment? Did he counsel GSD or others to
not comment until the court issues indictment(s)? That's fairly
standard I think in pre-trial hearings. Particularly if he had been
watching the Roger Stone coverage...

The lack of transparency is unsettling, particularly if GSD was
expected to testify at hearings but is it totally unprecedented?
Could the atty have advised him to skip hearings for other reasons?
Tactically, there may have been little to gain if indictments and a
trial was foregone anyway.

It's one thing to correctly confront corrupt actors... to demand an
accounting. It's quite another to get carried away with certainty
about who they are.

Hi Dungeness
Yes I think there is more to the story, certainly.
But that can only explain why they engaged in fraud repeatedly, and who the actual actors were. With Dhillon family members involved at every step, the owners of the company are rightly responsible to repay the loans, Shabnum and Gurinder as owners share in that. This wasn't just a one time accident, but a systematic series of decisions and actions.

Baba Ji may not have known. But over years of time, any decent human being would have taken actions to stop the crimes and make every effort to make up for the harm done, to repay the loans.

It takes a true decent human being to step in and stop criminal activity among family members even when that includes taking responsibility for their crimes.

But that hasn't happened here.

We don't know the inner workings. We may never know.

But we do know that several fictitious shell companies where Gurinder 's wife is the principle officer, and where Gurinder and his sons also are owners, engaged in fraud to the tune of hundreds of millions of dollars, they were were given three months to repay and have remained silent and unresponsive.

When you take profit from an investment you own, you have responsibility for any damage to others that ensues.

The responsibility has already been assessed by the agency responsible to do so.

That's already done. Guilty of fictitious and fraudulent business deadlines.


Hi Dungeness
This is all we know so far : Several Gurinder owned companies are guilty according to the legal judgment of the SEBI of fictitious and fraudulent business dealings. The evidence for the judgment involves hundreds of millions of dollars over a series of systematic frauds engaged in by fictitious shell companies owned by Gurinder and his family.

Nothing else can be concluded at this time.

Good morning Spence :) Thanks for your devotion
to truth.

Hi Ilsnovitch
You wrote
"Devotional delusions
Double edged sword
Truth and reprehensible fraudulent transactions sheathed in the same scabbard.
Face the facts and check your pulse rate
Do not blink in case you miss something vital for the role play"

And

"Thanks for the censorship it's well received

Dungeness and Spense two genuine seekers after truth
They say it'll set you free, or did Jesus say that?

Knowing and unknowing, like love and hate, two opposites of the same coin."

Truly beautiful.

A mystic poet, what can they do with worldly matters? When their words alone raise us beyond these bags of flesh we waste these short seasons upon feeding their egos and bellies.

We are more than this.

Stay with the poetry. That's real.

Build the atmosphere of love, live n the atmosphere, because you, your family and the world benefit.

It's sad when we see lesser things here, and it reminds us that we have access to much greater things within, lasting happiness, if we stay focused on them. Whatever treasure we find there, it is our duty to gaurd, for our own good.

The world is the world. It will pull your attention out in the most devious ways.

For example, I can ignore any faults in others, but my own faults, when they have affected others, shatters my peace of mind. But it can't. For then I'm of no service to anyone.

I think this is the lessen we are being taught.

We can put aside everything, in order to keep building the atmosphere, but surely not this! Yet we must learn to.

I read some of the Indian financial press reports regarding Ranbaxy and Fortis and the fallout between Malvinder and Shivinder, Huzur's own grandsons at loggerheads over business imperialism wealth gone wrong. Poor Nimmi caught in a whirlpool of anxiety where her Fathers legacy of love has been compromised and shattered by factors outside of her control.

I think it makes one wonder whether Maharaj Ji perhaps decided to get out before the high finance imbalance hit the house of honour he so painstakingly built for charity in his grandfathers name.

@ Spence.

You wrote:
"But we do know that several fictitious shell companies where Gurinder 's wife is the principle officer, and where Gurinder and his sons also are owners, engaged in fraud to the tune of hundreds of millions of dollars, they were were given three months to repay and have remained silent and unresponsive"

I have not read the details.

Can you state, who was given three months to pay.

You seem to imply it was GSD.

But I am guessing it was the Singh brothers.

As officers of the company they must have authorised the release of the funds. Which means the money was given with their consent.

So my guess is, THEY are liable to pay it back, not GSD.

They will get sued by the company. They can, in turn sue GSD.

Also, let's get clear, non payment of a loan might be morally incorrect, but its not illegal and not fraudulent in law.

What IS illegal is for the Singh brothers to withdraw company funds without giving an explanation of what the funds were for and without shareholder agreement.



Can you state, who was given three months to pay.

You seem to imply it was GSD.

But I am guessing it was the Singh brothers.

As officers of the company they must have authorised the release of the funds. Which means the money was given with their consent.

So my guess is, THEY are liable to pay it back, not GSD.

They will get sued by the company. They can, in turn sue GSD.

Also, let's get clear, non payment of a loan might be morally incorrect, but its not illegal and not fraudulent in law

No, SEBI determined the fraud extended, not just to Malv/Shiv's
shell companies, but to others of which Shabnam was a principal
officer and were owned by Gurinder and his sons. SEBI's ruling
held them "jointly and severally" liable for repayment of loans
within 3 months. Further, principals were enjoined from diverting
or "alienating" assets. The loans are still unpaid and those deemed
responsible are unresponsive.

So criminal indictments are likely coming with the shell corp.'s
officers probable targets. But it'll take further investigation to
assess culpability and who will ultimately be charged. The
Singh brothers Malv./Shiv., Shabnam, GSD, Sunil Godhwani,
even GSD's atty and others could all be in the crosshairs.
That's for the courts and, despite all our armchair lawyering,
the trajectory of all this and its outcome remain unknown.

Hi Osho
To support Dungeness' summary, if you will read a little more of the above thread you will find the link and direct quote indicating that the SEBI's order to repay was to both the Singh brothers and to the companies owned by Gurinder and his family(and run by Gurinder's wife and sons) . Both were found guilty of engaging in "fictitious and fraudulent" activity, both were ordered to repay and threatened with penalty.

The courts will only be engaged if there is a failure to repay, or if their ongoing criminal investigation provides hard evidence of criminal intent in tyne party of individuals, which is a higher bar to pull evidence and testimony for, and so long as there is a likelihood of recovering any of the moneys, some further delay.

But the legal determination of guilt has already been made to these corporations and thereby culpability has already been assessed to the owners of said companies.

"Fictitious and fraudulent" The legal determination has already been made. Guilty.



The courts will only be engaged if there is a failure to repay, or if their ongoing criminal investigation provides hard evidence of criminal intent in tyne party of individuals, which is a higher bar to pull evidence and testimony for, and so long as there is a likelihood of recovering any of the moneys, some further delay


For those with a burning desire to know:

I assumed criminal charges would usually follow any fraud
conviction but that's untrue. In this case, there may not be
any, particularly if "civil fraud" is found. On the other hand,
if the alleged "death threat" from GSD's atty pans out. a
criminal charge could follow.

"Civil fraud" remedies are geared toward restitution (restoring
money to the person who's been defrauded) and that's likely
to be charged here. Jailing a "perp" makes restitution even
more daunting, although the threat of it, may make him/her
shake the tree a little harder to avoid the "slammer".

@spence
You wrote
“To support Dungeness' summary, if you will read a little more of the above thread you will find the link and direct quote indicating that the SEBI's order to repay was to both the Singh brothers and to the companies owned by Gurinder and his family(and run by Gurinder's wife and sons) . Both were found guilty of engaging in "fictitious and fraudulent" activity, both were ordered to repay and threatened with penalty.”

I looked and I can’t see where it says that.

Can you possibly copy and paste the paragraph that orders gsd group to repay

All I can see are orders against the Singh brothers as they misappropriated company funds

@spence

I have read the sebi report now.

It does NOT mention Gurinder or his companies as far as I can see.

The order is for the Singh brothers to return the money, as they loaned the money out.

The fraud has been committed by them, not grinder.

If this is indeed the case then you are giving out incorrect information.

I have asked you twice to show me in the text where gurinder has been accused of fraud and where he has been ordered to return money.

No response from you.

Let me ask you one more time.

Please copy the source of your allegations, or admit you got it wrong.

After all you keep asking GSD to admit and come clean. Now its your turn.

Brian quotes you as someone who knows but it appears you either don't know or have a different agenda.

Please clarify your position and backup your statements with the proof you keep saying is in the links to articles.

Those with the explicit agenda to implicate GSD as severally liable and incriminate with fraud might yet be highly disappointed with the end result if or when the case goes to court.

Based on what ilanovitch? Wishful thinking? Why can't believers in the Guru just say that the news looks compelling, but we will have to see what the outcome is... use some discretion and composure in your comments. Just my 2 cents.

Hi Osho
To summarize. The SEBI order refers to the Singhs as well as to the specific shell companies, and RHC where the Singhs and Gurinder share majority holdings.

The SEBI made a legal determination that the Singhs and these companies, had engaged in fictitious and fraudulent activity.

At the time, those shell companies were run by Dhillon family and RSSB associates leadership. The Singhs had no direct ties to those shell companies at that time, according to the SEBI audit. This precisely served the purpose of laundering money.

The Singhs gave loans to these companies that at the time they had no legal ties to. These where Gurinder family / RSSB Leadership owned companies.

And these companies have been ordered to pay the money they and the Singhs had fictitiously booked as repaid while under Gurinder family/RSSB leadership control.

The judgement of guilt is legal and has already been made.

Since the time of this fraudulent activity, the leadership at these companies has changed hands. There have been resignations and new directors assigned.

This supports Malvinder 's testimony about Shivinder. In late 2018 there were resignations. For example, at Modland Wears, one of the shell companies started in 1991, directors resigned in 2018, and they are no longer listed on any information website. We only know today that papers of resignation were filed in 2018, from the MCA India website.

Malvinder claimed that Shivinder had encouraged Gurinder to sell the shell companies, indicating Gurinder owned them.

Malvinder further claims Shivinder had offered to assume Gurinder's liabilities in exchange for something... Malvinder claimed it was the Guruship that was the exchanged commodity.

This also directly implicated Gurinder as the previous owner of these shell companies. And thereby the source of his liability.

It was this period under Gurinder's ownership that these shell companies engaged in what the SEBI has determined legally to be fictitious and fraudulent behavior.

Now we see that Shivinder, over the last 3-5 months is a new director at at east two of the three shell companies that had the legal judgment of guilty of fictitious and fraudulent behavior.

And there have been resignations of the prior leaders, confirmed by the Ministry of Corporate Affairs of India. Though those documents are not immediately available to view, they are listed as a "resignation of directors" PDF in 2018.

We still see RSSB leaders as directors, but Gurinder family members are no longer listed, and Shivender is now listed as a new director on each.

ilanovitch, you said:

"Those with the explicit agenda to implicate GSD as severally liable and incriminate with fraud might yet be highly disappointed with the end result if or when the case goes to court."

No, there isn't an agenda to implicate the RSSB guru. The facts have implicated him. Read Spence Tepper's comment above.

I agree with you that a court proceeding would/will be great. Get the facts out. Have Gurinder Singh Dhillon defend himself. Have his accusers make their case.

It'd be wonderful if Dhillon would say this himself. But he's been silent. Usually when people consider they've been falsely accused of a crime, they issue a statement saying they look forward to being exonerated in a court of law.

But the RSSB guru hasn't done that, perhaps on the advice of his attorneys. Or maybe because he's a notoriously private person who doesn't like to be photographed or recorded.

@spence

I have checked one of the companies, fern, and your statements are incorrect.

Not a good idea to write as if you know
Then the truth cones out that you are guessing

Hi Osho
These are my sources...

For Fern Healthcare
"Fern Healthcare Private Limited is an unlisted private company incorporated on 30 January, 1984. The registered office of the company is at Ground Floor, A-Wing, D-3, District Centre, Saket,, New Delhi, South Delhi, Delhi.


The total paid-up capital is INR 18.24 cr.


The last reported AGM (Annual General Meeting) of the company, per our records, was held on 30 September, 2017. Also, as per our records, its last balance sheet was prepared for the period ending on 31 March, 2017.


The company has 1 directors and 1 reported key management personnel.

The longest serving director currently on board is Shivinder Mohan Singh who was appointed on 24 September, 2018. Shivinder Mohan Singh has been on the board for 5 months.

Shivinder Mohan Singh has the largest number of other directorships with a seat at a total of 24 companies. In total, the company is connected to 23 other companies through its directors."

https://www.tofler.in/fern-healthcare-private-limited/company/U85110DL1984PTC192009

And for the other company I've looked at

For Modland wears, founded in 1991..
"
The longest serving director currently on board is Shivinder Mohan Singh who was appointed on 24 September, 2018. Shivinder Mohan Singh has been on the board for 5 months. "

https://www.tofler.in/modland-wears-private-limited/company/U70200DL1991PTC044907

Modland Wears filed a declaration of new Director, listed on the Ministry of Corporate Affairs India site as

"Declaration of Apointee Director, Managing Director, in form number Dir-2: 13102018"
dated 13/10/18

And shortly after filed a notice of resignation in 2018, listed on the Ministry of Corporate Affairs India site as
"Notice of Resignation Filed With The Company - 10112018"
dated 10/11/18

And on this same date a discharge of company ownership
"Proof of Dispatch-10112018"
dated 10/11/18


And we find the same for Fern Healthcare

"Declaration of Apointee Director, Managing Director, in form number Dir-2: 13102018"
dated 13/10/18

"Notice of Resignation Filed With The Company - 10112018"
dated 10/11/18

And on this same date a discharge of company ownership
"Proof of Dispatch-10112018"
dated 10/11/18

Note the identical dates, please.

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