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March 19, 2019

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"The story provides further evidence".. again.it's not evidence. It's a claim by Malvinder. It's not a story about evidence. It's a story about an affidavit from Malvinder. An affidavit is just a term for a person's uncorroborated testimony.


Fake news Brian!

The big man ain’t paying nothing - be careful my friend that you are not creating karma in that you are liable to pay 900 dollars - in this life or the next.

Jay and Arjuna, so where's the evidence from the guru and his lawyers that contradicts Malvinder's statement to the India Supreme Court? Oh, so far there isn't any. So there's evidence on one side, and no evidence on the other side.

Us reality-based people who like facts and evidence naturally weigh issues in that fashion -- by the preponderance of evidence.

I'm more than willing to change my mind when more evidence comes in. But so far the evidence is that Gurinder Singh Dhillon has to pay back over $800 million, either directly, or through the companies controlled by the Dhillon family and their associates.

@ brian. - where does it say he has to pay. Show me a court order?

Arjuna, I guess you didn't read the story I just shared in a blog post. Here's the link:

https://hinessight.blogs.com/church_of_the_churchless/2019/03/rssb-guru-now-faced-with-repaying-909-million-in-allegedly-fraudulent-loans.html

Malivinder Singh was given a deadline by the India Supreme Court to come up with a plan for paying the Daiichi arbitration award. Part, or maybe all, of the plan he's submitted to the Court involves getting $906 million repaid from loans and advances given to the RSSB guru, the Dhillon family, and the guru's associates.

So this is a legal response to a legal request by the Supreme Court. Pretty darn close to a court order, for sure. As I said in the post, this isn't a "family matter." It is a legal matter involving money siphoned out of public corporations, that now is owed to another public corporation, Daiichi.

And all this seemingly is separate from the money SEBI has ordered to be refunded. See "Second piece of evidence" in this post:

https://hinessight.blogs.com/church_of_the_churchless/2019/03/rssb-guru-had-better-have-a-big-bank-balance.html

@ Brian - let me read this and check where it “says” the big man has to pay.

Will be back!

Arjuna it's the same tired story with Brian. He is ignorant of the fact that someone saying something is not "evidence". It's like right now if I say Brian is a thief then according to Brian himself there is "evidence" that Brian is a thief unless he responds back to my accusation. Any intelligent person can clearly see how dumb dumb dumb that sounds but this simple point is lost on Brian. After going back and forth with him yesterday and then seeing this again today, I conclude he just lacks intelligence in this area and is unable to see the point. I showed his responses yesterday to a few people and let's just say they were all making fun of him and think he's a joke.

This is the Supreme Court of India.
Ordering Malvinder to get payment.
Malvinder's order to the Dhillon family to pay what they owe is now under Supreme Court of India directive.
How far this has gone!
How far it is going!

Ilanovitch
When you take out a home loan, to buy a property, you are liable for the mortgage.

If you default, the bank is responsible to the shareholders.

When the supreme court orders executives of the bank to get payment, it is only so they will come after you, for what you owe.

This is how this will play out. Gurinder's loans must be repaid. There is no way around it.

A loving Banker might forgive him those loans, but the Supreme Court is saying "No, you can't do that. Banker, do your job!"

Don't forget where you are.

@ Michael - hello.

I’ve had to trust my gut feelings and training in my job. I don’t buy what Brian and Spencer are saying. The big man ain’t paying nothing - all I want these evidence based people 🤣 is to show me a document which says the big man is liable to pay. I have yet to read the links Brian posted but fear it will lead to nothing.

I think Brian and Spencer are going to end up with egg 🍳 on their faces on this one! No I don’t think - I believe! I believe as strongly as Brian believes there is no God - that nothing will happen.

I like this blog - but the news he keeps putting up is nothing penetratiive. That’s what’s happen when smart people make dumb choices!

All the best

No Ilanovitch
When he can't make good on the loans, and admits it, I will be first in line to donate what I can.

The price of honesty is high, but well worth it.

@ Spencer / you will be paying either way now brother. You are blood thirsty.

@ Spencer - we create bad karma and pay either way. Best not to hold the moral high ground when we don’t even know our own sinful load which we carry.

"blood thirsty" LMAO

This is all getting very Game of Thronesy.

Stephen Colbert, Jimmy Kimmel, Seth Meyers, Noah Trevor, Jimmy Falon and James Corben comment daily on Trumps alleged EVERYTHING. Then of course there's Samantha Bee, John Oliver and SNL...

Besides, like ilanovich said, there is no free will, so why are you trying to convince Brian to change anything? Oh wait... you can't control what you're doing either. I get it now.

And I didn't have any free will in writing this comment. It was really weird, my hands just started moving... hitting buttons all over the place.

Don't want to type god damnit but, damn it! had absolutely no control over it. And then I tried to stop myself from typing fuck, but again, no control. Not my fault. Can't be blamed. No shame here. Guiltless.

I'm not trying to be an asshole here, I'm just asking you question your deeply held beliefs. You know, just check in with that hardwired part of your brain to make sure it's working properly.

@ Sonya - hello

Not hardwired at all - not on this matter. All I am asking for a conclusion - where is the paperwork asking master to pay?????

Show me that and I will shut up.

And yes blood thirsty - are these two going to go after the mafia next in there quest? Are they the new Blog Avengers???

Show me that paper and all will be fine - on that night have a great evening.

Arjuna:
The paper you asked for...

"But most importantly, Rs2,700 crore were transferred to companies owned by the Dhillon family, Gurinder Dhillons wife Shabnam Dhillon and companies associated with RSSB's senior functionaries. While Religare and Fortis are examples of reckless expansion and its consequences, the money transferred to Dhillon and associates-which (with interest) is now estimated to be between Rs4000-5,000 crore-remains unpaid to the Singhs.

It isnt clear why this money was never returned. Dhillon and the Singh brothers did not respond to detailed questions on whether this money was owed to Dhillon and associates for any previous transactions or was only loaned to them."

https://www.businesstoday.in/magazine/the-hub/the-baba-singh-brothers-and-the-squandered-rs-225000000000/story/281437.html

Hi Ilanovitch:

You wrote:
"You intimating Gurinder Singh Dhillon is dishonest?"

Certainly not.
I am not making any attributions to Baba Ji at all.

What I have done, with Brian, is list out facts for your consideration. The financial scheme is complex, and the movement of Dhillon family members seems timed to avoid personal liability for one's actions:

"On August 17, 2016, Shabnam Dhillon resigned as director of nine companies including the Prius twins. At present, her only board membership is in Luminous holdings. However, she continued to hold her 84% shareholding in Prius Commercial projects, which has five subsidiaries.

In her resignation letters, she cited preoccupation and used the address of Sunil Godhwani’s Yashwant Place premises. Though there is speculation about a falling out between the Godhwanis and the Dhillons, this could not be confirmed because of conflicting signals.

Insiders who know Shabnam Dhillon say though her name has got projected in these deals, she leads a life of a sevadar and could not have done all this on her own.

People familiar with Religare operations say the master himself took significant interest in the affairs of Religare and was even part of meetings with business heads where a proposal to restructure the company was presented. Had the deal gone through, the mess could have been averted, they say.

A former colleague of Sunil Godhwani says, "Private-equity funds were ready to pick up stake in Religare Finvest at INR225 per share levels. But the brothers wanted INR300.

On the same day Shabnam Dhillon resigned from her companies, Rajveer Singh also resigned from four boards: Prius Real Estate, Dignity Buildcon, Hillgrow Infrastructure, and Addon Realty. About a month later, Yuvraj Gorwaney also resigned from the boards of Prius Commercial projects and its subsidiaries....."


The fact the law has been broken, through these defaulted loans, and that the bulk of the several thousand crore Rs received from these loans by Baba Ji and family has not been repaid is a matter of documented fact.

https://www.rssb.org/news26.html


You may draw your own conclusions about why, but the above is purely factual.

Hi Ilanovitch:

You wrote:
"You intimating Gurinder Singh Dhillon is dishonest?"

Certainly not. There is just this pattern of avoiding legal responsibility for the siphoned loans:

"On August 17, 2016, Shabnam Dhillon resigned as director of nine companies including the Prius twins. At present, her only board membership is in Luminous holdings. However, she continued to hold her 84% shareholding in Prius Commercial projects, which has five subsidiaries.


On the same day Shabnam Dhillon resigned from her companies, Rajveer Singh also resigned from four boards: Prius Real Estate, Dignity Buildcon, Hillgrow Infrastructure, and Addon Realty. About a month later, Yuvraj Gorwaney also resigned from the boards of Prius Commercial projects and its subsidiaries....."

https://www.rssb.org/news26.html

Hi Ilanovitch and Arjuna

Just a question.

If, and yes this is a big fat If,...

IF Baba Ji cannot repay the loans he and his wife took, and this is proven to your satisfaction...
And...

IF.(two big ifs, I guess)... He admits taking the loans and not repaying, admits it was a mistake to take the loans, and admits this was entirely his responsibility...

Would you forgive him?

"In a ‘garnishee’ order the court directs a third party (persons who owed money to Malvinder's firms) to pay Daiichi instead of paying the money to Malvinder's frims)."


https://m.timesofindia.com/business/india-business/will-recover-dues-from-radha-soami-head-others-malvinder-tells-sc/articleshow/68473773.cms?utm_source=contentofinterest&utm_medium=text&utm_campaign=cppst

These Garnishee payments are the Supreme Court of India ordering Gurinder and his family directly to pay their unpaid debts directly to Daiichi. It's happening now. They are taking this directly to Baba Ji, circumventing Malvinder.

When the Supreme Court of India must become your bill collector, your moral authority has evaporated.

"In a ‘garnishee’ order the court directs a third party (persons who owed money to Malvinder's firms) to pay Daiichi instead of paying the money to Malvinder's frims)."


https://m.timesofindia.com/business/india-business/will-recover-dues-from-radha-soami-head-others-malvinder-tells-sc/articleshow/68473773.cms?utm_source=contentofinterest&utm_medium=text&utm_campaign=cppst

These Garnishee payments are the Supreme Court of India ordering Gurinder and his family directly to pay their unpaid debts directly to Daiichi. It's happening now.

The Supreme Court of India is now ordering Baba Ji and his family directly to pay their unpaid bills. When the Supreme Court of India must become your bill collector, it's not a high moment in personal responsibility.

When the Supreme Court of India must become your bill collector it isn't good.
Do they need to become repo man next?

@Arjuna,

I wasn’t actually directing that comment at you other than the “blood thirsty” part which did make me laugh (sorry but it did). I was addressing that comment at people who don’t believe in freewill. Because without freewill then we’re all blameless. I can’t believe how many times I have to use the word ironic on this blog, but isn’t it ironic that a group of people who don’t believe in freewill somehow think the Master can do no wrong and at the same time everyone else has lifetimes of karma to pay? How can you be judged or be guilty of any sin or have karma if you have no control over your actions (freewill)?

And if you have one iota of freewill then you have freewill. I’d like to be clear that freewill and freedom are very different things. Your freewill is going to collide with everyone else’s but still you are making decisions and choices and acting upon them. We don’t choose where we’re born or who our parents are... things like that but we do get to choose things like what we’re going to say next. We can choose to blink or not. We can choose to turn a blind eye. We can choose denial.

There’s not a single person that has unlimited freedom or unlimited power. Some have more freedom or power than others but if we take away freewill then I would have to uncategorically say that even if Malvinder or Shivinder or Gurinder are proven to be crooks, that they are ultimately (in the grand scheme of things) not responsible for what they did. Without any acknowledgement of at least a little freewill or as I like to call it, Responsibility, then we’re all absolved of anything we do in this life from a philosophical perspective.

But I don’t believe that’s true. I believe we all have certain responsibilities and we need to be accountable for those. Being a “perfect Master” doesn’t give you a free pass. And some people are so unempowered by their belief in karma and destiny that they just stop trying to give a shit.

We (humans) are accountable for what we do. For crying out loud we hold our pets more accountable than the untouchable Masters and gurus. I am not the judge and jury but I believe it’s good for people to participate in conversations about serious allegations. In the end, it may turn out to be a somewhat manageable situation for the Singh’s and Dhillons. Regardless, there will be ethical concerns that leave a mark on both RSSB as well as India Inc.

Guru's family seems to have become answerable to SC. YesA response countering affidavit or accepting its averments as filed by Malvinder seems imminent.

That perhaps will clear out the speculation about who is the best criminal in the collective family who perpetrated, masterminded imaginative earthly actions leading to a weird situation may not be aa much for they themselves than for His followers.

Wish an honest unequivocal statement so that we may be relieved.

If he can pay his debts, why didn't he?

It seems we are separating into two camps. The ones who believe Gurinder cannot be guilty of such activity regardless of any amount of evidence.

And the ones who believe that we should be responsible, and that devotion to the path is devotion to the highest personal ethic regardless of personalities.

But if we believe the latter, then it doesn't matter who did or did not engage in fraud. All that matters is that fraud happened and may be happening today. And we should do all we can to end it.

When a doctor sees a patient with gangrene, it doesn't matter that the patient was a fine actor, a hero or a villain. All that matters is the destruction of the gangrene leg in order to save the patients' life.

When the patients ' family enters the room and sees the doctor with their assistants gathering their power saws, testing the motor, arranging sponges and bandages they cry out in horror and shout for the doctor to stop, that they are mistaken.

But the good doctor proceeds without delay.

I just want to clarify—I was refering to those who don’t believe in freewill because they believe everything is “karma”. I think sometimes terms get confused and I forgot that even non spiritual people sometimes don’t believe that we have freewill either. But I think there is a lot of confusion over the definition of freewill.

In my mind freewill is responsibility and accountability. Maybe others define it differently. The only reason I went down that long road about freewill was to establish some sort of mutual understanding of RSSB’s/Sant Mat’s stance on freewill and karma. Something I have never understood.

Ultimately to me, freewill or the ability to make choices, is important because it establishes accountability. If no one is accountable then what’s the point of having a judicial system. And it’s disturbing to me that so many gurus are considered above the law by their followers.

Mr Spence, in our case patient is the Doctor Himself. Question before us how He ill- advised Himself / themselves while He is supposed to be a Perfect Doctor of us mortals - who perchance or deliberately get afflicted with materialistic gangrene and who He time and again wish to be straight and aboveboard despite under worst conditions/ circumstances.

But what is yet to be concluded that the Patient may or may not have that huge gangrene.

Anyways it is beyond our ambit to play role of a doctor to him. We may just helplessly plead with Him to reveal as much as possible and ASAP reg it.

regards


In my mind freewill is responsibility and accountability. Maybe others define it differently. The only reason I went down that long road about freewill was to establish some sort of mutual understanding of RSSB’s/Sant Mat’s stance on freewill and karma. Something I have never understood

I agree there must be accountability. We're also
compelled to act out the charade of "freewill"
and the ensuing "karma" according to the mystics.

It feels "free" because there's no access to the
hidden mental edifice that shapes decisions
and acts.. Why do we immediately like some
people and not others , gravitate to only a
narrow set of choices, irrationally fear at times,
then act recklessly the rest. Even our tiniest act,
the most trivial and inconsequential thought is
governed by what came before.

We just don't have the self awareness and the
mindfulness to be aware of it. That's the way it
stays unless we're able to peep behind the curtain.

We're actors reading the script thrust into our hands
moment to moment. The puppeteer moves the
strings and we dance. Whether clumsily or skillfully,
we feel we made the choice to dance. So we are
responsible.

The mystic says we are the puppeteer too and
have just forgotten it. It remains mysterious at our
"puppet" level. The puppet master tries to explain
it all to me with a sigh.

Hi Meditator
The doctor is the Lord.
He does his work all the time.
We humans make mistakes all the time, so healing is in constant demand. But we also work, create, and can have some connection to that ideal just by submitting ourselves to it. Indeed what we do comes from things beyond our awareness. But we can become more aware. This starts with a decision not to harm. It starts with a choice to try to better ourselves first, and from that, the world. And our efforts continue through our own shortcomings by the connection and commitment we have to our ideal.

But that ideal becomes our teacher, not the other way around. Things may not be as we thought. And if they are, year after year, what then are we learning?

Pursuing our ideal is as much discovery as unfolding.

We should actually be happy that the world is not exactly as we imagined or were taught (as best we could understand those teachings). Now there is an opportunity to learn something new.

"Barn's burned down
New I can see the moon"
Alan Watts, Zen Flesh, Zen Bones

@Spence

I was about to highlight part of your comment but then realized I’d have to highlight the whole thing. I appreciated all of it. :) I guess this one statement in particular:

“Pursuing our ideal is as much discovery as unfolding.”

"Jay and Arjuna, so where's the evidence from the guru and his lawyers that contradicts Malvinder's statement to the India Supreme Court?"

Malvinder's affidavit states that there were loans to the Dhillon family. I don't think anyone is disputing that.
As for Malvinder's allegations that Gurinder issued death threats, I'm not sure what evidence Gurinder is supposed to produce to dispute that. In any case, Malvinder still hasn't released the "evidence" he says he has of those threats.

Let's this whole matter go to trial, where all the particulars are presented by both sides, and a verdict is given. No one should be condemned as guilty by the accusations of one person - - in this case, a person who has made allegations with no evidence to back them up.

Here's the latest on the SEBI order:
https://www.moneycontrol.com/news/business/companies/time-may-be-running-out-for-singh-brothers-to-pay-up-even-as-the-blame-game-continues-3675291.html

Excerpt:
"The Singh brothers may need close to a billion dollars to pay Daiichi Sankyo’s arbitration award and comply with the Securities Exchange Board of India (SEBI’s) order to return funds diverted from Fortis Healthcare and Religare Enterprises, if they want to avoid a possible imprisonment."

God for sale. Opening bid Rs6,000.
Turban included.
Beard optional.

@ Spencer - that wasn’t funny - how far have you fallen since your twenties.

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