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March 10, 2019

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"Malvinder claimed that Shivinder had encouraged Gurinder to sell the shell companies, indicating Gurinder owned them. Malvinder further claims Shivinder had offered to assume Gurinder's liabilities in exchange for something. Malvinder claimed it was the Guruship that was the exchanged commodity."

Again, the details matter. They matter to the ultimate conclusion you're driving at, that the guru of RSSB was a willing party to illegal acts. So far, conclusive details that precisely confirm Gurinder's legal culpability haven't been provided here. And Gurinder has yet to go to trial, let alone be charged with a crime. What we have is a chapati less than fully baked.

"Yet fervent fact-deprived defenders of Gurinder Singh Dhillon say he had no involvement in the SEBI financial fraud that, according to the whistle-blower, funneled money to Dhillon's sons and RSSB associates."

As I'm new to this forum I don't know who here is saying that Gurinder must be innocent. I for one have never said that. I'm just waiting for a court's decision that specifically cites Gurinder as a guilty party. LIke everone else here, I'm not skilled in forensic accounting and international corporate law, and I don't have access to the specific agreements that might directly link Gurinder to criminal acts. I'm just saying (again) that details do matter, and that why it's appropriate to hammer away at suspect gurus for what they might have done, it's a presumptuous mistake to conclude their specific guilt is a fact when all the evidence still isn't in.

jay, as Spence pointed out in his comment, we know that Dhillon family members were in charge of the shell companies when the financial fraud occurred. That fraud involved checks being written by the companies to cover up the illegal existence of the loans. So it seems clear that relatives of the guru were participants in the fraud along with close associates of the guru. Yet defenders of the guru say that this supposedly all-knowing being was clueless of the fraud taking place. I heartily disagree. The guru knew, almost certainly.

The supreme court of India has asked the two cousins to testify on the 14th. It ought to be good. https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/news/company/corporate-trends/supreme-court-asks-malvinder-shivender-singh-to-be-present-in-court-on-march-14/articleshow/68174462.cms

Let's see what happens.

Brian, you write:
"He's been doing a good job of leaving comments on this blog that correct errors made by those who want to deny that the RSSB guru has any connection with the financial fraud."

I don't think, and I am certainly not saying that Gurinder had no connection with any financial fraud.

What I am taking exception to is Spencer adding his own interpretation, and remember this is from someone who claims to meditate and have contact with the shabd and also the radiant form of the master. The "Inner master" as he calls it.

Spence claims that Gurinder is a thief, a robber and further claims that a guilty judgement has already been made legally.

Spence seems hell-bent on twisting the facts.

Here are the facts of the SEBI report:

The only people implicated in the report are NAMED. They are the two singh brothers.

Why?

Because they were in charge of the funds. They changed the dates, so they were clearly involved in the actual fraud.
The three companies mentioned received the money, then sent it on.
Obviously the report concludes with the order to get the money back, but it is not directed to the three companies as if they are the criminals here, which is why Spence is saying.

Spence is targetting Gurinder and family. Yes - they are involved and there was a clear joint operation that the singh brothers and the dhillon family were party to, however there was no
corporate robbery and it was now "stealing". These are words that spence has added because he feels it is the same thing.

If you borrow money from a credit card or a bank and fail to pay it back, you are not a "robber" or a "thief". It was a loan, and failing to pay it back itself is not a criminal offence.

The report is highlighting the cover up - which the singh brothers played a major part in, and the three companies mentioned were a party to that. Nobody is denying those facts.

Spence is taking things further, and his is not an authority in the matter. He is an outsider and is only guessing and making incorrect conclusions.

If what he says was true - there would already be an arrest warrant out for every member of the dhillon family including gurinder.

there is a difference between an allegation and a proven court verdict. Spence seems to think there is no difference.

Take malvinder's statement: he makes the allegation that he has a tape of a death threat made by Gurinder's lawyer. It's just an allegation at this point. We don't know the wording of the alleged threat. Even if it was produced and the lawyer admits it, that in itself does not implicate Gurinder.

Sure, he may be behind it, but in law "May be behind it" is not a legal conviction. It has to be beyond a reasonable doubt. Now add to this that making a threat itself is not proof of anything.

Let's just say that Malvinder is found dead - even that would not be proof. People say all the time "I'll fucking kill you". It is not proof that killed the person who made the threat did it. It would be circumstantial.

It may even be likely, but we have a due process of law that says "innocent until proven guilty"

Something that Spence clearly does not believe in.

Now one more point, specifically about Spence.

here's person who was firmly a follower of RSSB until recently.

he was adamant not to "judge" anyone. He took great exception to me when I spoke about the Babani incident. I was and still am on Babani's side of that reported incident. I don't think RSSB should take advantage of poor people, as it may be legally correct, but not morally.

Spence was very much against making any judgement. Now it appears he has been promoted to being the actual Judge and Jury.

He was afraid of accusing, now he freely accuses. He has gone to the other extreme.

I could reproduce some of his comments where he accuses me of "Judging". I pointed out that judgement is only when you deem a thing as "bad" or "Wrong" - not when you merely point it out.

If I quote the sebi report - that is not a judgement.

if I quote it and then say "Gurinder is a robber and a thief and should be locked away" - that is a judgement.

Spence has gone full circle and has gone from love to hate.

Why is he so concerned about putting Gurinder behind bars?

Okay - point out what the sebi report says, which does not state that Gurinder is a criminal, but to take it further and accuse Gurinder of what even the authorities have not - is too extreme.

Is Spence more qualified than the sebi? So he was a hospital worker - doesn't make him an authority and certainly doesnt make him the judge.

As Brian also points out, the SEBI has already ruled that these companies colluded with the Singhs to write false checks to make it appear that the massive loans they received from Fortis were repaid when they were not.

https://www.sebi.gov.in/enforcement/orders/oct-2018/order-in-the-matter-of-fortis-healthcare-limited_40755.html

On the first day of a new financial period, monies would be received by the shell companies run by Gurinder RSSB-associates. The shell companies on that date would write check to Gurinder family members, checks that added up to millions, and a smaller loan payment check back to Fortis.

The brothers Singh would back date the payment checks one day, to the last day of the previous financial period, to make it look as if the loans were being paid off, when they were not. The payment amount of that check had been included in the original larger check. By circulating checks in this way, according to the SEBI, these shell company leaders, in collusion with the brothers Singh created the fiction that loans were being repaid.

The SEBI concluded this is fraud.

https://www.sebi.gov.in/enforcement/orders/oct-2018/order-in-the-matter-of-fortis-healthcare-limited_40755.html

And this is why the Singh brothers and these shell companies, including RHC holdings, together have been ordered under penalty to repay the loans.

They were given ninety days to do so and that period has passed.

Now the Crimes division is building a much larger case.

And this is where things stand today.

So who received these moneies as 'loans' gained through deceit and fraud, who also never repaid ?

Gurinder's family and associated RSSB leaders.

https://www.livemint.com/companies/news/fortis-fraud-may-exceed-rs-2-000-crore-says-sfio-1550522937932.html

You may elect to wait for the courts to assign legal culpability to specific parties for these corporate robberies. But illegal 'Fictitious and fraudulent' activity has already been determined by the legal regulatory body, the SEBI.

The capacity to judge right from wrong is part of learning about Truth. It is enhanced when we adopt a lifestyle of doing no harm. We begin to understand how harm happens and we avoid that. And where we have harmed we now act to make up and make amends with those we have harmed. And it is also important to use that discrimination to advocate for the voiceless, the vulnerable, the weak, handicapped and the sick. Jesus said we should invite them to our parties, and care for them, go to prison to bring them clothing and food. This is a very high standard. We should do our best.

When we withdraw from our duty to know simple right from wrong, to try our best to acknowledge and to make up for the harm we have done, to speak out when harm has been done, we have lost all the benefits we had hoped to gain. We move away from truth, not towards it.

Understanding truth also means acknowledging inconvenient and ugly truths. And taking responsibility not only for our own errors, but to advocate for others who are being harmed, and finally, to encourage our brothers who may have fallen as we have, to stand upon their own two feet and accept responsibility for their actions. We should always be looking to help those who fell, because each of us has fallen in the past, even if long ago. And we all make mistakes every day. The answer isn't to ignore it. That is not kindness. It is laziness, it is self - serving justification.

Our duty as good human beings is to accept our responsibility to do better, and to help each other do better.

When a spiritual teacher no longer lives upon their own earnings, but upon moneies gained through fraud, they have just created a religion.

But their followers who have lived for years to build that atmosphere of truth can now reach out to their teacher and help them to acknowledge the harm they have done, to take responsibility openly, honestly and transparently, and make things right. We are all brothers and sisters. And if we have not rightly understood that Baba Ji is our brother, and that is the highest place he and we can ever reach, then that is our error. And that error is getting in the way of helping our fallen brother.

If we can ignore our duty to help Baba Ji with the truth, then we can ignore our duty to help each other. If we refuse to accept Baba Ji as our brother, we refuse to accept each other as our brothers and sisters. We want the religion to take the responsibility which rests on each of our shoulders. And so we actually help build the religion and all the superstitions around it. The higher we place our teacher upon a pedestal, the lower we place the duty we carry to act with common decency..

When anyone thinks they are above the law, to defend ongoing illegal activity, they fall beneath it.

We are all brothers and sisters and that is the most we can aspire for. Because anything else takes away from that.

Hi Osho
You wrote:
"What I am taking exception to is Spencer adding his own interpretation, "
Really? Don't you have your own interpretation about things?
We are not going to agree because we have a different set of filters about right and wrong.
And that actually makes for a good dialogue....and maybe we each learn something more.
You have learned that fraud actually took place cooperatively, collaboratively among all these companies that coordinated the writing of checks back and forth to fictitiously create the image that loans were being repaid. And you have learned that everyone basically knew these were loans and no one was repaying them, and worse, working on a scheme to cover it up. It was a family thang.

I'm a little less confident about who the actual players were in each shell company.
But everyone knows where the money went.
That's why we each share our interpretations...and their basis.

Good evening Mr Spence

Whether God would be happy if your Truth is proven false due to kickbacks and connivance and Baba jee and few others are set free as lambs while there may be a scapegoat made out to take the whole blame. Even though intentions may point towards a collaborative fraud. Mr Spence you would be proven wrong despite your best efforts in siding with complete Truth and whole story as it played out including intentions behind the financial transfers among family members and beyond.

As I find that tricks and twists are also a part of His plan and World History is a witness to several such instances.

regards

Next most believers are not accepting your analysis especially about Baba jee being acco- conspirator if not prime one since issue has not been settled by an Indian court.

I must add that Indian Courts from bottom to top may play in the hands of mighty and same has been alleged by Indian Press and advocates of character with their logics n conclusions even recently but have fallen to deaf ears.

Another case that concerns me most is also about Dada Babani but again the matter was rested in peace under similar judgements and counter judgements. Surprisingly Dera was silent despite he having had been a most trusted, respected n evolved soul n among oldest satsangis.

But a few soothing voices from staunch believers of the Path help me drown these inconsistencies.

Hi Meditator:

It is always best to stay close to the truth.
We can always see the actions that have taken place, with the evidence.
That is very clear.
What we don't know are people's intentions.

When we know so little of our own, how can we tell?

I would be wary of people's explanations. Explanations of events can help, but if they cause you to ignore the events, that isn't good.

Ideally they will help you understand those events in context.

Faith in the Master is crucial. But faith that blinds you to facts isn't good at all.

No true Master wants that. Not if they are about finding Truth.

So, you can rest assured that if you have been initiated all is well.

And if not, and you seek truth and God, you are also on the path.

It's God's responsibility, but you have your part to play.

And your exposure to these things is part of that. Exposure to information, which you may then determine for yourself the degree to which it is fact based and verified.

This is all an exercise in acknowledging Truth, through Faith that the Truth will set you free, and an open mind is part of finding Truth. It is also Faith in God, that while you may need to turn a few corners, with each painful turn, you grow closer to a divine harmony, closer to an ultimate Truth.

To want it handed to you on a plate, where you have no real work to do, no risk, that isn't spirituality.

Most true Saints had to risk everything, even undergo torture, simply because they chose to tell inconvenient truths that threatened others' sense of perfect knowledge.

Should we expect something less? Is that really faith?

Should you, Meditator, expect to have perfect knowledge about this issue?

No. So then, no matter whose company you keep, you are still an adult and must make your own decisions. Some easy, some difficult.

As Baba Ji often said, the Path is not a bowl of your mother's pudding. Anyone who offers that I would look at twice.


@ Spencer - what do you gain from all this?

Trust me you ARE NOT doing Huzar's Work.

All the best

Arjuna
Add some light.
Avoid taking sides.

@ Spencer

I’m a battle worn solider - who has learnt not to take sides but I am only trying to help you . Regardless of this situation why create karma?

Hi Arjuna
Your concept of Karma requires interpreting what I'm doing.

And that involves judgment. In this case a negative one.

I know you are trying to help in any way you can.

But it would be more helpful if you shared your interpretation of the events, ex, the SEBI.

Your opinion about that is of interest and doesn't involve casting judgment on anyone.

@ Spencer - I don’t have words to express what I’m feeling but something inside is telling me you to stop for your sake . Not taking sides by the way

Thank you Arjuna.

spence:
On the first day of a new financial period, monies would be received by the shell companies run by Gurinder RSSB-associates. The shell companies on that date would write check to Gurinder family members, checks that added up to millions, and a smaller loan payment check back to Fortis.

correct version: the SAME amount would be sent back through various companies and the singh brothers would backdate the amounts by one day so they fall into the same quarter, as the financials were checked every quarter. So the financials for the quarter would balance, but in actual fact the payment was made in the following quarter and then lent back out. So then those three companies had the money again for 89 days. for those 89 days the balance would be negative, but on day 90 the money would be repaid for a day.
so this was a way of borrowing the money without paying any interest as it would not be classified as a loan. This started from 2016 - so obviously a new plan to borrow the money until it could be repaid legitimately.

Clearly the Singh brothers were a party to this going on as they backdated the payment date.

So when malvinder's complaint refers to the missing money - like it is some kind of shock to him - this is clearly untrue as he was a party to the whole thing from the start. The only reason for his complaint was to dis-credit Gurinder and family - and he knew that would hurt them. Like I said - it's a chess game. malvinder has already lost - so he wants to take Gurinder and others down with him.

So, Spence; when you make a statement, make sure you understand what you are saying, as you appear to give the impression that you know inside information and are well informed.

@ilanovitch

you wrote
Divergent modus operandi between inner and outer masters is most convoluted irrational attempt at Obfuscations yet considered.

This other notion that GSD "sold" the gaddi to Shivinder for high stakes shares or undisclosed non repayable loans is also way too far fetched a bitter pill to swallow.

The inner master / outer master spence theory is ridiculous and completely irrational. It enables spence to be against the outer master, as he clearly is, and at the same time still claim a connection with the "real true inner master"

Also - the "sold the Gaddi" is complete nonsense. Again a chess move by malvinder.
After all - he's getting nothing while his brother becomes the next guru. No way.

If any followers finds out the gaddi is sold for money, that discredits the whole of RSSB - again exactly what malvinder wanted to happen.

@ ilanovitch So... What's your take on the embezzled money going into GSD's shell companies over many years, to the tune of hundreds of millions?

There was no embezzlement of money. It was a joint operation. It can’t be called stealing or a robbery.

It was s joint effort to use funds without paying interest. When the investments went sour, money was rotated to make it appear that no money was being borrowed, but was in fact borrowed one quarter at a time.

Malvinder claims he was surprised but he was a party to the coverup and he backdated the payment dates.

This is why it’s all speculation until a court verdict is reached.

Hi Osho
Please take a closer look at the SEBI report. $56M was never paid, and that is only over the five quarters they studied. The Crimes division has uncovered a much larger amount in their ongoing investigation to the tune of hundreds of millions.

The checks you are speaking about are on each existing loans, but you haven't addressed the additional loans checks that continued to be written to the shell companies as detailed in the SEBI audit...they show tables of those loan figures.

And the shell companies handed out money, not only to Religare Holdings (major owners, the Singhs and the Dhillon family), but to individual Gurinder family members. These "loans" where handed out and accepted by those very Gurinder family members who had not made payments on their prior loans. And who to this day are not making payments, and are silent re: their responsibility.

The participation of these shell companies with RSSB family / leadership on their directorships means they were all involved.

Legally, the shell corporations and the brothers Singh are liable, but ethically, all those folks who took the "loans" ie the shell companies, their directorships, and the recipients of the individual loans, Gurinder's wife and family, and kept taking them without repayment, all share in the ethics of this fraud, and whether actively or tacitly participated in the fictitious cover up.

You are continuing to try to minimize responsibility and personal accountability.

A True Saint does the exact opposite, Osho.

If we believe Him due to blind faith or owing to some inner bliss and still better if we could have revealed Him inside then for them the Outer Master will ever be close to their hearts despite He being a co-conspirator in this play/theatre which He is playing out as per some divine plan and seems hell bent upon confusing us to the hilt.

Since He is called Perfect then whatever He does or behave or spells can not ordinarily be compared to us mortals even though it is also a fact such Perfect Masters have ever remained role models for their disciples throughout their lives and have been always better off than their best disciples in their worldly dealings, acts and behaviour.

But His recent approach in worldly affairs has been lesser mystical as we discuss threadbare on this forum and more worldly than even an average satsangi - all shrouded in mystery for us while it may also be true that at some inner level as these some have revealed Him to be all Perfect and Truth in itself.

I think that with more and more revelations in the days to come with also some conviction it seems some of us may not hold on to their faiths and will go into iterations between disbelievers and faithfuls except for those who are still putting hard work in their meditative practice and trust His divine potential.

I am somewhat removed from all of this as I was initiated by Huzur Charan Singh Ji
Therefore all of my loyalties are with him.
It is a sad state of affairs if the present Master is involved in fraud because then how can his disciples believe anything he says.
This world seems to be disintegrating before our eyes across the globe and forces me to further retreat into my own space and world at home.
The principals of Sant Mat are sound and I believe in them, therefore I will continue to live by those and bless the day I sat at the feet of my Master Charan Singh at the simple and sweet Dera of the past where anyone could take photos and walk freely to the river.
When I returned to the Dera in 2015, after being away since September of 1989 just months before Charan Singh died on June 1,1990,
I was aghast at the expansion and could barely find my way round . It saddened me and left me cold and I was appalled at the “pope mobile” at Satsang that Baba Ji rides around in during money seva
I feel fortunate that I was able to experience the innocent Dera before it turned into a veritable city.
It may be that the lord and the masters want us to indeed turn within and this certainly is forcing all of us to look inside and not outside for our spiritual wealth. Shocking but true.
A devoted soul

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