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March 15, 2019

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"Hey, cousin Gurinder,"

Not cousin. GSD is cousin to M&S's mother and not cousin to M&S. GSD is son of Huzur's sister who was married in Dhillon family, so Huzur's nephew and M&S's uncle (hence the "father figure" reference).

Radh(er Not) Soami, you may be right. I used to consider that Gurinder was the Singh brothers' uncle, and said this in blog posts, but someone emailed me and convinced me otherwise. So I changed to cousin. See below.

I'm not very good at geneology, and have noticed that few stories in the Indian financial press mention the actual relationship, Maybe the reporters aren't good at genealogy either. Here's what the emailer said:
----------------------
Charan Singh was the father of Nimmi.
Nimmi is the mother of the Singh brothers.
Gurinder is the son of Charan’s late sister and therefore Charan’s nephew.

What’s written below is correct, except for the conclusory final sentence. Obviously the writer is equally inept at geneology. The grandchildren of your uncle are not your nephews. They are your first-cousins once removed.

He couldn't just conjure $1 billion out of thin air. A true Master would never put on such a vulgar display. Oh, snap. Why he need all dat cheese inna first place???

Say the worst is true. The question that should naturally follow is this: why did Charan Singh choose this particular nephew to be RSSB's guru?

The narrative among the Charan lovers is that Charan was the real sant mat deal, a guru who could do wrong. And yet, as nepotism was evident in Charan's appointment, nepotism was likewise evident in Charan's tapping of Gurinder.

Charan lovers like to cite stories that their guru really did have amazing powers of knowingness; they say that Charan even seemed to know the date of his departure from this world (the fact that Charan was quite elderly and gravely ill at the time he made his last will isn't cited as a factor). One would expect that an all-knowing guru would above all else apply his knowingness to choosing a competent successor. But to hear the Gurinder critics (who are invariably also Charan initiates) tell the story, Gurinder immediately went off the perfect master rails the very day he took the gaddi. An internet "ban," rampant land development, vegetarian scrupulosity regarding cheese. And now this scandal!

Well sirs and ladies who were initiated by Charan, if Gurinder really is the UN-Perfect master, guess who gave him to you.

PS: Again, thanks to Brian Hines for keeping this forum open to all opinions. Critics of Rajinder Singh tend to get banned in that other RS forum.

Hi Jay
I don't think Charan has any responsibility for Gurinder.
Each of us must stand on our own two feet.
At some point we stop blaming others and take full responsibility for ourselves.
This whole divine comedy (and God bless Brian for presenting this as a humanist, and a humorist... He makes the bitterest pill tolerable).. Is a lesson in personal responsibility.

ilanovitch, truth can be painful. I'm sorry you're having such a difficult time accepting that the RSSB guru knowingly accepted almost a billion dollars in largely, or entirely, fraudulent loans. It must also be tough to learn that SEBI and the India Supreme Court aren't letting the RSSB guru off of the hook for repaying the money.

I don’t like conspiracy theories and conspiracy theorists weird me about a bit. They’re a different breed... you know, “the earth is flat” or the opposite group that thinks there’s an Atlantis in the core of the earth... and of course extraterrestrials among us. I find that sort of thinking both disturbing and fascinating at the same time—fascinating that there can be such a large community of the flat-earther types.

For all you conspiracy theorists out there, I’m not criticizing you so much as in awe of the way your brain works. Much the same way that I’m in awe of hoarders. I find them absolutely fascinating for some reason. I used to love watching shows on hoarders and then spend the rest of the evening going through the house throwing everything away.

I digress. And I sort of intentionally put this at the bottom of a long comment because this is definitely going to sound like a conspiracy theory, but here goes... I often seriously wonder if GSD legitimately received the gaddi. 🤔🧐🤨

But I don’t want to sound like Trump and be all like “show me your birth certificate!”

@ Spencer: "I don't think Charan has any responsibility for Gurinder."

Charan Singh is the only person who chose Gurinder to be guru of RSSB, so I don't get how Charan gets a pass for the actions of his chosen successor. Actions that many here are saying are criminal.

If the appointing RSSB guru bears no responsibility for his choice of successor, then it follows that these guru appointments are all a joke. Actually worse than a joke, more like a cruel fraud on millions of RSSB followers who trusted Charan's ability to appoint an authentic Satguru. But if Charan truly bears no responsibility for Gurinder, that can only mean that Charan was at best just rolling the dice, and had no real confidence let alone cosmic knowledge of Gurinder's spiritual advancement. And yet, appointed Gurinder to be Godman and steward of the RSSB organization and mission.

If Gurinder is the UN Perfect Master, then Charan deserves credit for foisting this UN Godman upon us.

jay says: "The narrative among the Charan lovers is that Charan was the real sant mat deal."

Well those people are still deceiving themselves. When I look back and remember the only interview my hubby and I had with Charan, when he visited NZ. He just sat there behind a desk looking totally bored, not at all interested, did not have a good vibe and I did not even realise it then because I was still star struck and brain washed. I don't blame anyone else, I put him on a pedestal, my own fault. People can believe anything they want to, thats their problem, to each their own.

There is no question of 'best' choice or 'right' choice. The appointed successor is supposed to be GIHF or close enough to reach this level before giving Nam.

Appointed by someone who is also GIHF.

There is no getting away from this, folks. If you don't accept this then you either haven't understood the satsangs/books/initiation ceremony, or you are following something else in your mind that differs from RSSB canon.

The line of successorship is a conditional proposition -- if you falsify one, then the whole proposition is falsified.

Hi Jay and PJ
Yes, the theory is that a true Master can do no wrong.

But by that same theory, the rest of us flawed individuals have no way of understanding their actions.

So those two elements cancel each other out. The human mind cannot understand from the "perfect" perspective. Therefore presuming someone is perfect because the theory is they should be is meaningless. Especially when you don't actually believe that theory.

And even if you did, it's just your take on RSSB.

You are just as perfect as any Master.

After all this evolution, we are a perfect fit, as is every species.

And then saying "But that's RSSB teachings" is also meaningless because we are citing criteria we have no knowledge of. We may believe, at best, but we cannot know.

Which leaves us with the human perspective. How do we use our human limitations?

Firstly, our capacity to judge anyone's character should be limited to ourselves. We are not great at understanding things from a distance. So if we can't know that Maharaji or Gurinder are perfect or not, if we have no basis to transfer that knowledge though actual and repeatable data, then we will have to accept such depictions as subjective sentiments of love. From that perspective it is entirely accurate.

Maharaji said plainly not to put the Master on such a pedestal. Doing so is not the result of rational thinking, just gratitude and love. It's a sentiment, not an actual scientific fact. And that sentiment is subjective.

Subjective is a wonderful thing. And our subjective experience is certainly real for us and should be honored. But it is not transferable as fact. Trying to do that is trading sentiment for superstition.

Secondly, as the saints teach, we should try to be fact based.

And then, our capacity to understand right from wrong improves as we build an atmosphere of calm and dispassionate understanding, for which our meditation is a powerful tool.

Therefore, as far as we can judge, every individual must stand upon their own two feet.

Ftn the perspective of Baba Ji's actions Charan has nothing to them.

Those actions reflect on Baba Ji alone.

Sonya, I think you might like this short video, be bold and venture out into the unknown territories of the mind and consciousness...

Carl Jung, the Shadow, and the Dangers of Psychological Projection (8:03)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nI-Ko-d29X4

ilanovitch, I guess you haven't been reading my blog posts or the stories in the Indian financial press. SEBI and the Supreme Court aren't out to have Gurinder Singh pay back his loans because they want Malvinder Singh to get his money back.

It wasn't Malvinder's money to begin with. Fortis is a public company. Funds were siphoned out of Fortis and other public companies into shell companies that benefitted the RSSB guru, his family, and associates. This is why SEBI found that laws were broken. This isn't a matter of Gurinder Singh not paying back a loan Malvinder made to him.

The fraud goes much deeper than that.

Attn. all GSD Accusers seeking Justice,........

RSSB is said to be occupied by 8,000 permanent Residents.

They get food and shelter, in addition to Spiritual Counseling, or entertainment, depending on how each imagines the content delivered by GSD.

So, would Cosmic Justice be fairly served, if GSD was found guilty of fraud, by the Courts, and he was incarcerated, and RSSB properties would be confiscated as Collateral, and auctioned off to the highest Bidders, and the proceeds would be paid to the Creditors, in line, decided by the Courts?

Before that happens, we should consider the positive Cosmic loss of Charities that the 8000 RSSB Residents recieve per year.

Estimates of Costs, for each Resident, once forced to leave RSSB and live on their own.

Breakfast = $5.00 x 8000 Residents x 365 days/year = $14,600,000
Lunch = $10.00 x 8000 x 365 = $29,200,000
Dinner = $10.00 x 8000 x 365 = $29,200,000
Lodging/Room = $20.00 per day x 8000 x 365 = $54,400,000 per year

Total cost for food and lodging for 8,000 Residents would Total $127,400,000 per year.

Of course, Medical care, and Schooling and Education for children would be added Value.

Regardless of Who is presently providing the money to maintain those minimum expenses, if GSD was found guilty, and put in prison, and RSSB closed down, GSD’s Accusers should consider whether Cosmic Justice would be fairly served for the good of the whole, for the most people involved in the Big Picture.

Jim Sutherland

Jim,

If the charges are true then all the residents are living off money that belongs to someone else, i.e. the stockholders of Fortis and other companies. Does that serve Cosmic Justice (whatever that is)?

So, if Gurinder turns out to be a crook he shouldn't be punished because he used ill-gotten gains to run the Dera?

ilanovitch wrote:

"GSD is the perfect choice successor chosen by the perfect predecessor.

It's the poor skeptic closed brain thinkers who still looking for perfection with imperfect lenses of dull perception.

It's actually a quandary you never going to get out of, until you change your lenses of perception to a lense that can actually see. Not one that "believes" it can see, one that can "actually" hear and see the woods for the trees."

-- It occurred to me: How does ilanovitch know HIS lenses are clear?

@Jim Sutherland: Before that happens, we should consider the positive Cosmic loss of Charities that the 8000 RSSB Residents recieve per year.
The Cosmic master says we are not a charitable organization, but a spiritual one! So there goes the charitable argument! Not that I personally agree with that stance since being generous and charitable is normally considered a spiritual asset. It is mind-boggling (and shows cognitive dissonance) that the poor/middle-class folks who provide free and generous seva are "charitable", but the upper echelons of RSSB say we are not a charitable organization. How come? Well, at least that explains when some (most?) believers will not give anything to any charity or help a poor but will surely pour money-seva or do other seva at dera. Does apple fall far from the tree? Of the Master, by the Master, for the Master, but not any other! In reality, the seva should really be self-less and tag-less if one says God is in everyone. [E.g., take a look at bhai Kanhaiya's from Sikh history giving water and first-aid to both friends and foes in battlefield]
One more thing, Jim... There is a zero chance that the per diem cost is that much in India (we are not talking about 3-5 star hotels and restaurants). If it were, likely 80% of the people in India wouldn't be able to eat (or live) at all. At that economy of scale as seen in Dera and the free ("charitable") seva provided by people, the cost is seriously a fraction of that.

@ilanovitch
Yes, Gurinder has made it clear on numerous occasions that RSSB is not a democracy. He calls all the shots and everything is run by him first for his approval. We all know his famous line “it’s my way or the highway”.

I doubt anyone will go to jail. They will find a way to make repayments. Besides, there are a lot of wealthy satsangis wiling to help and the Singh’s uncles are billionaires...

What I don’t understand is how people believe a Master can be all knowing but they don’t really talk about the Masters being all powerful. The Masters can’t control everything that’s going to happen in the future. I don’t know how rational minds apply certain supernatural powers to their GIHFs but not the whole kit and caboodle. It’s like selective mysticism.

Every line ends somewhere. And GSD said recently that RSSB was on the razor’s edge of becoming a religion. As a matter of fact, Gurinder and his lawyer won a case in Australia to have RSSB classified as a religion so that they could get certain benefits such as building in an environmentally protected area. So there you have it, RSSB is legally classified as a religion down under. All because of a building project Gurinder wanted.

@Jen

Thanks for the link. I’ll check it out. 😊

Dear Seekers of Divinity,

I had only been a reader so far but felt the need to finally make a comment and present my thoughts which are as below-

Brian’s MOTIVATION:

In order to understand Brian’s motivation behind turning this Church into a Cult, what it has become today, we need to examine the incident that took place back in 2005 when he was removed as a RSSB speaker. Brian call’s it being fired in his own words. This experience bruised his ego and naturally it did upset him and made him feel less valuable and important. The evidence is in his reaction, he immediately turned bitter and has been making subliminal passive-aggressive blog posts ever since against the faith which he had been preaching for several years just before the incident. In retrospect he feels that these blog posts help him get over the incident, which he is trying to till date.

Brian’s ARSENAL:

Brian relies on fluky news items and innuendo reports that are forwarded to him, which he ignores to carefully examine, as it gives him enthrallment, of which he is a slave. Over the past several months he has stooped so low that he has resorted to name calling, character assassination and mudslinging. His direct knowledge on these matters can be judged from the fact that he doesn’t even know the relation between GSD and Malvinder, yet he has been presenting all the allegations as if he has direct first-hand information and they are proven charges. He even subtly takes credit of the gossip and rumors that is shared with him and indulges in rumor mongering.

The seekers on truth should also be aware of Brian’s habits of drinking and smoking weed- He has himself admitted several times on this blog about his love for wine and marijuana. It helps him calm down. But marijuana and alcohol are known to cause impulsivity and interpersonal hostility. So I leave it to the sagacity of the readers to decide whether or not they want to rely on such an individual before forming an opinion about the faith.


Regards,
SC Jockey

Ilanovitch, to be honest I don’t care if Gurinder was/is an honest person, I would still hold deep disregard for him based on my own personal interactions. If everyone in the world loved him I would still dislike him because he has been quite abusive with me. He even admitted out loud in front of a few hundred people that he had been harsh on me with his handling of one of my questions after I sat down but he laughed about it which made it that much worse. It was then and there at that moment I realized out of all of the people I’ve known, loved and respected in my life I can say he was the only one I was completely wrong about. At that moment he became a monster in my eyes. Nothing more, nothing less.

@Jen
Thanks for the link. I watched it and it reminded me how popular the projection term was in the 90’s. The shadow being the ego. Yes, I agree but it’s all very ironic.

Anyway, here’s one I love and hope you do as well.
https://youtu.be/6haBMbtXSLg

SC Jockey, I’d respond to your comment, but I’m too stoned and drunk right now to do that.

@ Brian - what do you smoke? “Stoned” ?

@Brian baba jis mother is still alive . U mentioned charans late sister .

@Arjuna that was a sarcastic comment by Brian. Why do some people don't understand sarcasm? Arjuna I feel you're a very confused soul.

Yes, I was being sarcastic.

@ seeker - I was being sarcastic too 😀

We are all confused that’s why we are on here!

@ seeker - I know Brian would never stoop to getting a high from smoking weed.

Tuscun writes,...”If the charges are true then all the residents are living off money that belongs to someone else, i.e. the stockholders of Fortis and other companies. Does that serve Cosmic Justice (whatever that is)?”

Me: Gurinder is not funding the sustenance of the 8000 permanent RSSB Residents. Neither was Fortis or other LLC Companies controlled by GSD and family. DONATIONS most likely, from RSSB Initiates keep the basic operations funds coming in to keep RSSB afloat. But GSD is obviously the Caption of the Army as well as Admiral of the Ship. So locking the Captain up will quickly sink the RSSB Ship.

Trump has more baggage than GSD, but is Captain of Uncle Sam’s USA Ship that is using other people’s money, i.e. working American Tax Payers, to feed, house, cloth, and give free medical care to every foreign Migrant that manages to sneek past all barriers on the U.S. Borders to claim sanctuary from wars, or any other excuse they use to enter in to the U.S. , to receive Charities from money forcefully extracted from U.S. Tax Payers.

Trump and GSD have similar “ Duties”, but Trump is a Business Man where GSD is suppossed to be at least, the Sant Mat Pope of Spirituality. But GSD would not last a werk in Trump’s position, now would Trump last a week in GSD’s position. They BOTH love Hot looking Babes.

We are witnessing Cosmic Justice in action. As far as I know, neirher Trump nor GSD smoke Weed or use Alcohol. Trump likes his Burgers, while GSD likes his Worship.

Cheers,
Jim

@Arjuna haha

Yes we are all confused, but your level of confusion is extreme. Sometimes you talk one thing and the next day totally opposite. Anyway who am I to lecture you. All is well. Take care.

Illanovitch
The SEBI audit has proven that all the shell companies, which had Gurinder family and friends as directors, participated in producing a fraudulent paper trail of rotating checks arranged to appear as though loans were being repaid that where not. It was a fictitious and fraudulent activity. And it was by the participation of many players.

Gurinder family and RSSB leaders took these and other similar loans from the Singhs over nearly a decade but haven't repaid to the tune of $800m. And Gurinder family and RSSB associates have not responded to the SEBI's orders for repayment. They have taken no public responsibility for the hundreds of millions they took but have not repaid.

These are the facts, interpretations aside.

To presume somehow that only the Singhs carry responsibility is false.


SC Jockey,
You have chosen to ignore factual information in the case of Gurinder family and RSSB leader crimes and instead attempt to depict, falsely, Brian's character.

What I like about your post is that in one economical statement, you have proven how far some supporters of Gurinder have fallen away from the teachings of truth and into superstition.

If you, who have not been tempted quite so dramatically, year in and year out, can fall so quickly and far, it is not difficult to understand how the temptations of money and power, decade upon decade, have eroded RSSB's governance so completely.


Jim wrote:

" So locking the Captain up will quickly sink the RSSB Ship.

--If he is guilty (I don't know that) then he should be locked up or whatever they do to criminals in India. That would be too bad for the RSSB faithful if the ship sank (sunk, sunked, sanked) but that would be the reality of the situation.

Some readers should understand I have no dog in this fight. It makes no difference to me whether GSD is a crook or not. I'm not a threatened devotee or a bitter ex'er. I just respond to what I read.

Jim wrote:

"Trump has more baggage than GSD, but is Captain of Uncle Sam’s USA Ship that is using other people’s money, i.e. working American Tax Payers, to feed, house, cloth, and give free medical care to every foreign Migrant that manages to sneek past all barriers on the U.S. Borders to claim sanctuary from wars, or any other excuse they use to enter in to the U.S. , to receive Charities from money forcefully extracted from U.S. Tax Payers. "

-- I agree. At least Trump is trying to end this ridiculous, absurd, insane, irrational and unfair practice.

The border and immigration policy and enforcement is out of control. I have lived near the border (with a couple of interludes) for about 35 years and it has been a "crisis" for all that time. Trump is not exaggerating. I can tell lots of stories but I don't have time and don't know if they would be read or appreciated anyway. This is not political ideology on my part. It is based on life experience and personal observation. With political will and cooperation this problem could be, like, 98% solved in a short time. Really, quite easily. A wall in critical locations would be part of it, but policy change, new laws and enforcement of those laws is needed.

But it won't happen because the political left seeks power and control. Mass immigration of indigents seeking entitlements and free stuff is a source of votes. So, they will put up roadblocks to any practical solutions, no matter how stupid it makes them look in their quest for power. They are not looking out for you and me. They are looking for political control. It's a power trip. If it suited their purposes the border would be zipped up in a very short time.

I'm not saying all immigrants are no-good leeches. I employed numerous illegals in my former produce distribution business and many worked hard just to make money to send back to their families, but it is human nature to take advantage of what is available to them and, once established, to vote for those who APPEAR to provide it.

Prosperity is not a handout. It is achieving it via the opportunity provided in a free market without undue control by a central federal bureaucracy (the hardest word in the English language to spell correctly) aka Socialism.

ilanovitch,

I agree with your post above (March 16, 12:39 AM)

@ seeker - your opinion doesn’t really matter to me . So all the very best xxx

ilanovitch, the allegations against the guru aren't second hand or third hand. The reporting in the Indian financial press is based on solid evidence. Such as:

-- The SEBI report (Securities and Exchange Board of India)
-- Public information about the ownership/directorship of the companies named in the SEBI report
-- The criminal complaint filed by Malvinder Singh against the RSSB guru, his family and associates
-- Documentation of where the funds fraudulently loaned to various companies was used for

You may disagree with this evidence, but you can't discount it. As the saying goes, you're entitled to your own opinions, but not your own facts.

@Arjuna and I am simply not interested either. But if you look back in one of the post, you yourself asked me about my opinion, so again you're confused as usual. Grow up.

An important distinction: The Indian media isn't saying that there's evidence linking Gurinder Singh to fraud. They are just reporting Malvinder's allegations against Gurinder. The allegations made against Gurinder are very much second-hand, because they're being relayed from a middleman (Malvinder) who has made allegations that so far are uncorroborated.

So far, the only person linking Gurinder to illegal activity is Malvinder. Not other parties involved, not the Indian Press, and not the Indian government.

Details matter. There is a reason why the Indian press isn't coming out and saying that Gurinder Singh is clearly guilty of fraud. They know to do so would be merely speculation and defamation.


jay, you're missing some important facts that have been repeatedly pointed out by Spence and myself.

The SEBI investigation found that companies controlled at the time by members of the Dhillon family, along with RSSB associates, were participating in the financial fraud by writing checks back to other companies controlled by the Singh brothers at the time.

These checks were written on certain dates to avoid discovery in financial reports and by auditors. So it seems undeniable that the Dhillon family was involved in the financial fraud. Hard to believe that Gurinder Singh Dhillon wasn't fully aware of this. So let's let further investigations play out and see where the money trail leads.

Hi Ilanovitch

You wrote "Yet it still remains an inherently family affair as to who owes who what and how much."

Fortis is a publicly traded healthcare system. Therefore what happens affects not only other stock holders but patients' lives. Diverting Fortis funds and thereby placing Fortis under threat of insolvency is not a family affair.

In health systems I've worked in over three decades, this kind of financial duress affects how inpatient units and diagnostic areas are staffed, their hours of operation, even quality supervision. It's a bad thing, and if someone caused it, doubly so. Generally, patient errors result.

In a few cases my team was able to reduce patient mortality simply by adding back the charge nurse hours that were stripped away under financial pressure.

Those are patients who died inadvertently from lack of proper supervision, in the surgery department, in the emergency department, and on the nursing units.

I recently witnessed this stupid behavior in an MRI department that staffed too thin under corporate pressure from executives witnessing the loss of millions every month. The result? Stroke patients in the emergency department had to wait four hours for their MRI to confirm and treat. That is criminal. Legality be damned.

You are right to imply this is a personal issue for me.

The loans Gurindar family and associates took without repayment is owed back up through the shell companies to Fortis.

Legally the shell companies are liable to Fortis, just as a bank is liable to shareholders for your loans should you default.

But ethically the persons who took the loans are liable.

Gurinder and family have, functionally, defaulted on $800M in loans. SEBI has ordered both the Singhs and those shell companies, where Dhillon RSSB associates and family members can be found among the directors, to make repayment.

Even if they could be done today, what damage has this caused to patients?

This layering of Corporate legal status has nothing to do with the responsibility of those who caused these problems by taking on promise and not repaying.

It's shameful.

Jay says, " Details matter. There is a reason why the Indian press isn't coming out and saying that Gurinder Singh is clearly guilty of fraud. They know to do so would be merely speculation and defamation. "

Here in the USA, 80-90% of the press does not function with that Indian ethic. The US press is far different. They defame Trump daily with no proof of their allegations. They need to take lessons from the Indian Press, but they are an arm of the opposition party to Trump. There is little available to counter them... Fox News, talk radio, a few writers. The press chorus in unity with the same scripted catch phases. If that's all you hear you eventually believe it. It's amazing Trump's approval ratings are as high as they are.. 43%. Quite an achievement against an avalanche of opposition. If you don't like Trump's manner and demeanor and hear nothing but sound bytes by the mainstream media, then you too will be a hater or at least a detester.

@ seeker - no you grow up! You are getting on my nerves now. I have seen a life that would make you squirm!!
So if I sit on the fence - why not???

Humans are fickle people - people change as people on here will!

Adios

@ilanovitch
Were you initiated by Gurinder?

It is what it is. But I wholeheartedly disagree with you in that it’s OK for the Masters to deal with their initiates aggressively. I think the whole notion of a Master having the right to be hurtful stems from an age-old self-hating lower caste Indian culture of guilt and unworthiness indoctrination. GSD was brought up in that type of environment. He knows no different. I could almost say it’s not his fault because he was brainwashed from birth to believe such idiotic self degrading principles. The Indian sangat at Dera and in the Punjabi centers seem to embrace guilt and shame the same way monks in the dark ages used to walk the street beating themselves in self flaggeration for penance.

In Appalachian territories of the US there were preachers that yelled at the congregation and talked about “sinners” and God’s wrath. They loved to use the fear of Hellfire and damnation to prompt the “sinners” to accept the “love and forgiveness” of Christ into their lives (ironic and sad). They made converts using those kind of tactics. I had some relatives living in eastern Tennessee and the joke among the civilized was that the poor and uneducated people of those areas believed if a preacher doesn’t yell and scream you then he’s not a good preacher. That’s how the people who went to those types of congregations believed.

GSD grew up in a poor community surrounded by individuals who accepted the caste system which further solidified their self-loathing. Gurinder believes guilt and shame are useful tactics. His ideology stems from the environment he grew up in and his father’s disapproval of him. GSD subscribed to a “personal” belief about human nature—that humans are inherently bad and need to be made aware of how bad they are so that they can realize their guilt and seek penance through “meditation” and worship of the Master (himself).

This is exactly how he treats the Indian sangat. I have to consider that he is not progressive in his dealings with other people because he grew up in the murder capital of India. He likes to talk about how rough his early days were as if he’s the only person in the world who had a difficult childhood.

The idea that the “Masters” can be abusive in speech or deed is archaic. It’s exactly what you would expect from a society so steeped in the caste system with beliefs that some people are more worthy than others (based on their past life karma).

If Gurinder had grown up in a more progressive society he may have a more positive belief about human nature. But he had a very rough childhood (much like my own father did) and although Gurinder loved going to the Dera because Charan would protect him, he still couldn’t shake what was instilled in him at home by his own father and immediate surroundings.

I should feel sorry for him. I really should. He projects his own self loathing onto the sangat. But he loves those who tell him how wonderful he is because his ego desperately needs that confirmation. So, the one time that I wasn’t telling how wonderful he was and praising him he snapped. A scorpion cannot change their nature... or so they say but GSD is a human being so he can change his nature and he should give it a try. Perhaps with enough self reflection, one day Gurinder will look at human beings differently realizing that we all have “God” within us and we all deserve to be treated the same. We are all equal in God’s eyes.

Satsangis are, in general, so accepting of these archaic beliefs about shame and guilt and not being worthy. And they further confirm these beliefs by looking to a man that will make them feel unworthy. It’s almost like they’re addicted to shame and self-loathing.

I’m amazed at all the Westerners so willing to accept this sort of thinking and actually believe they are being progressive because they’re following an “Eastern Philosophy”.

Give Buddhism a try...

Hi Ilanovitch

I'm sorry but nothing you posted provides information about the Fortis ' financial crisis, from which it is gradually recovering...

Here let me help you..


"Financial scandals enveloping Fortis Healthcare could eventually sink India’s second largest hospital chain....."

https://www.theweek.in/news/biz-tech/2018/02/27/financial-default-fortis-healthcare-going-satyam-mallya-way.html

"Fortis Healthcare raises Rs150 crore debt to stave off bankruptcy"
Deborshi Chaki, Malvika Joshi
Fortis Healthcare has raised Rs150 crore bridge loan from RattanIndia Finance to keep the struggling hospital operator afloat till it finds a buyer...

"Mumbai: Fortis Healthcare Ltd, which is weighing multiple takeover offers for its assets, has got a Rs150 crore bridge loan from RattanIndia Finance to keep the struggling hospital operator afloat till it finds a buyer, amid a credit squeeze.

" The non-banking financial company has provided the funding to help Fortis avert bankruptcy, two people close to the development said, requesting anonymity.

" Fortis has been grappling with legal hurdles and liquidity crises for a while. The healthcare firm reported a consolidated loss of Rs37 crore in the quarter ended 31 March 2017, the latest available financials of the company showed.

" ALSO READ: Vulture funds circle as Fortis deal drags on

“The funds raised will be used for meeting operational expenses and improving cash flows in the short term. The repayment will be done after the new promoters come in," said one of the two people cited above."

https://www.livemint.com/Companies/fvP820B4fOzGMFgrerPiNM/Fortis-Healthcare-raises-Rs150-crore-debt-to-stave-off-bankr.html


Fortis' loss of RS 932 crore...

https://www.bloombergquint.com/quarterly-earnings/fortis-healthcare-q4-company-widens-loss-on-one-time-write-offs#gs.18vp2m


"IHH Healthcare's Fortis takeover deal put on hold by India's top court

" Kuala Lumpur-based IHH Healthcare Bhd. said its mandatory open offer to acquire up to 197,025,660 shares of Fortis Healthcare Ltd., equivalent to a 26% stake, would not proceed until further notice following an order by India's top court.

" In July, the debt-laden Indian hospital chain operator accepted IHH Healthcare's investment offer of 40 billion Indian rupees for an initial 31.1% stake, ending a monthslong bidding war. IHH had an option to purchase an additional 26% stake for up to 33 billion rupees, subject to shareholder and regulatory approval.

https://www.spglobal.com/marketintelligence/en/news-insights/trending/e-hNChKYgJYPthhfFBBNVg2

Let’s piece the whole story together using common sense.
First of all, this began back when Gurinder’s sons received shares in Religare or some company just before they were floated on the stock market.
The Singh brothers sold the shares to them for $1 each and they became worth $100 each after the flotation. This made one of the sons $250,000,000 – a quarter of a billion.
Nobody just gives anyone that kind of money for no reason. This was obviously a business transaction. There was obviously a second part to that deal, whereby Gurinder’s family do something in return that is of more value to the Singh brothers.
What could that be? What could Gurinder give them that would be of more value?
Connections? People who can be trusted? My guess is that this was planned long ago. With key people in place that were not related to the singh brothers, they could do transactions that would appear to be genuine business transactions. Of course none of this could be in writing – so it would have to be based on trust.
Gurinder would be the perfect partner for the deal. He could appoint a person like Goswami who was not a family member, yet Goswami would never steal from his spiritual guru. And maybe others like him that we may still be unaware of.
Funds could be siphoned into offshore companies that have complete secrecy. Nominee directors and shareholders – so ownership remains anonymous.
But something went wrong. The real estate market took a serious nosedive. Just at the same time the singh brothers desperately needed funds otherwise they would lose the shares they had pledged to the bank. Their normal bank accounts were frozen because of the Daiichi Sankyo case. So they could not make the bank payments. They most likely appealed to Gurinder to help them but he was unable to do so because they real estate market had dropped so dramatically.
From there, it all went downhill. The Singh brothers lost their Billions – their biggest mistake was to pledge their shares. Obviously they knew at the time that they had plenty of money to make the bank payments – but they did not see the possibility of their bank account being frozen. Nobody could foresee that.
After that – the relationship with Gurinder most likely went sour as they perhaps blamed him for not helping. I doubt very much that the money given to the Dhillon family was theirs to keep – most likely it was a “under the table” deal to give money back to the Singh Brothers. The Singh brothers would not just give money away for nothing – there was obviously some kickback payments due to them.
When things went wrong – all trust is gone and it’s each for himself. That is where they are now.
If the Singh’s bank accounts had not been frozen – this story would never have come out – even now. It could only be a joint effort by the Singhs and the Dhillons. They both stood to profit.
But business deals can go wrong and this one did.
Malvinder is bitter because he has lost everything and all that remains now is revenge.
Shivinder is friends with Gurinder – so he’ll be okay but I doubt he will be the next guru. It would be a PR miracle if RSSB managed to pull that off.

Attn. Sonja,.....
Western Money Seva and Darshan with out any Popemobile,...by a Real Preacher!

https://youtu.be/s-NwKD9laZw

@Spence,....was SCjockey challenging Brian’s Character, or his Judgment, by his admitting he smokes Weed and sips Alcohol to relax?

Do you think Brian’s “ personality” might be effected by Weed and Alcohol?

He meditates daily, he says. Imagine him trying to withdraw consciousness to the Eye Center, and focus long enough to see the Star Gate all lit up, and hear the Sound that becomes loud enough to suck him thru the Star Gate and deposit him in to the Blue Sky where the Spiritual Path BEGINS?

Any Weed smoker , or user of Alcohol that says they see the Light and hear the Sound at the Third Eye are blowing smoke up their butts.

Do you use Weed and Alcohol, Spence? If not, you are not a good defender for Brian’s Judgement. you should know the Score.

There is a reason why we Charan Initiates agreed to quit using Weed, Drugs, and Alcohol for life, when we took the Vows. ( if we wanted to see the Star Gate and hear the Sound)

Cheers,
Jim

Jim Sutherland

@Jim
😂 That was hilarious but those evangelicals were much more charismatic in a likable sort of way than the hardened preachers of the coal mining Appalachian hill country.

My father was the son of a coal miner (this is going to sound like a country song) and his father wasn’t just hardened, his father was a very cruel man who beat my father daily. As a result my dad tried to stay away from the house as much as possible by playing sports. He ended up being the first person in his family to go to college and did so by means of a sports scholarship. He was able to escape the harsh and poverty stricken environment he grew up in through sports. Lyndon B Johnson declared his war on poverty in the county where my father was born and raised because it was the poorest all white community in the world. Yes, in the WORLD. And, yes I said all-white which is fair because I doubt there were many white people in GSD’s village. I’m only emphasizing this because Gurinder seems to think his childhood was so much more difficult than any westerner could imagine. Even GSD’s friend joked in evening meeting last December that Gurinder is such a narcissist that if you said you had problems he’d say, “oh you think you have problems, let me tell you about my problems”. It was funny at the time... because it’s true.

Anyway, my dad went on to New York after college and worked on Wall Street. The environment he grew up in gave him the grit he needed to deal with the dog eat dog world of Wall Street. But he always had his issues. He never escaped the need for approval or validation that he desperately yearned for as a child.

We are all products of our environment. A child’s mind is like jello—so easily molded. It’s much harder to break those molds as one gets older. And by the same token, my father had a huge impact on my psyche. However, in somewhat the opposite way. With his issues he wanted to make sure his children could face the harshness of life as he saw it. And being the daughter of a Leo with moon in Cancer I could get away with murder. If he got mad or raised his voice I could roll my eyes and walk away. And that was the end of that discussion (this rule did not hold true for my brothers). He taught me not to take shit from anyone. I think there were only two people in the whole world he was truly afraid of—my mom and me. So I get my strength from my dad and for that I am grateful. My husband was the commander of a platoon of mercenaries in the ongoing South African war during Apartheid. Even he says he’s never more scared than when I get really mad. But I think that’s true of almost all husbands. 😉

So there was my dad and then there was my mom who treated me just the opposite. We all grow up and then spend the rest of our adult lives trying to adjust the ego that our parents shaped. It is what it is...

Leo’s have their pride but they’re usually loving parents. GSD is a Leo. If he treated the sangat the same way he treats his family there would be more love at Dera.

@Sonya,...thanks for sharing your story with me. I have a story as well, and 77 years of Baggage, with a little too much to unload here. But in case you have missed my past posts here, and especially my impression of GSD after my very first vsit to the Dera with my Wife, in Oct. of 2017, I posted my report here on another Gurinder Link, in case you missed it. I said all I had to say then, so need not repeat my impression of GSD’s GIHF Resume.
But here is the Link to my Blog, where I have left a partial trail of my Spiritual Journey which started in April, 1977. I have written as either “ Eternal Flame” or “ Marked Elect.,

http://eternaloasisofsouls.blogspot.com

Cheers,
Jim Sutherland

These type of fraud activities on grand scale go too much in India. Nirav Modi case is another one that some of you folks may have heard about. Somehow the business and cultural environment is such that these activities do not trigger legal alerts, let alone moral and ethical qualms, in anyone... so these folks seem emboldedened to think it as the cost of doing business (or shall I say make even more yuuge amounts of money). It's not like it does not happen in US either; it is just that the regulatory noose is little tighter in US.

I doubt anyone in the upper echelons of the Dhillon-Singh empire not know what was going on or how the money was being siphoned or how the loans were being payed off just on paper; it was just a normal practice when it was being done in real time. Until these activities added up and the market downturn squashed the speculative bets to such an extent, with Daiichi-Sankyo playing the violin band on "Nearer, My God, to Thee", that everyone saw the Titanic sinking and no one knew what to do to get out.

It's unfathomable that whoever was writing in those checks and carrying out those transactions didn't alert others about the dark clouds hovering over the near-horizon and that info didn't vaporize all the way to the top Three. Personally, from the fact that Shivi's announcement on Sep 23rd 2015 to go to dera - to become a "Sadhu" - was closely matched with first murmurs of problems cropping underneath their empire (check the press reports around that time), I think his going to dera may have been as much tied with how to sort this mess out as much as his inner calling. Perhaps this sorting the mess out is tied to the potential succession plans (whether as part of or apart from the so-called Family Settlement). I don't think Malav is an innocent party either, even if he has gotten full throttle against GSD today (likely not out of honesty but as part of ploy to extract something out of this mess). He likely (allegedly) fully knew what was going on and the reasons for Shivi's renunciation and pilgrimage to dera. But after s*** quickly hit the fan from there on, he decided to go a different route to reduce his culpability. If Sunil Godhwani could intertwine Dhillon/Singh finances (something that Singh brothers should have known having created plethora of entities and the reasons to do so), then imagine what could happen if Shivi ended up on RSSB trust or as the head. Perhaps they saw a way to get out of trouble, particularly if the mess took a deadly turn. Of course, this is conjecture on my part but where there is a smoke, there must be a fire underneath. Something was fishy all along and all this sudden renunciation, leaving the company in capable hands of Malav and Sunny, is just too naive to believe in.

For all those here who are on the fence and so much on the defense, just beginning of this year, I too was defending all these actions (and few others relevant to my life) that somehow this is all divine plan and so on despite my objectivity that seriously questioned it since the Bloomberg story. So I thought of this way: what if all this was happening to someone else's guru?... say if Kirpal existed today, who otherwise posed as a decent guru, or perhaps Rajinder from his lineage today. Would the same thoughts and defense arguments originate in you, or would you be quick to point out (and likely gloat) that "we told you say... that it is a fake lineage"? Would you not say "even if this was all legal, why is their guru amassing god-awful amounts of money while preaching Guru Nanak's message: the accumulation of wealth is not possible without sins; nor does it accompany the accumulator after death (Paapan baaj hoi nahi...)." Would you not say that he should be instructing and hammering all his kins and near ones (particularly the dera elites) to adopt a simple honest living and focus on meditation than putting all the kins and close circle friends to the top positions of the empire? That doesn't sound like someone acting as mentor to this duo but rather appears to be actively involved in all aspects when the top echelons of dera were recruited to run this empire. Perhaps you should listen to this satsang starting at 6:25 : "... what principles don't we sacrifice to amass this wealth..." indeed! But oh sweat Lord, what an irony!

https://youtu.be/kD_FD4nYHZo?t=385
[It's in hindi but some of you seems to know it].

If you look at some of the comments posted by Ram Rahim followers even today on various forums/apps, you will see the real denial in action despite such clear evidence of his wrong-doing and doing time. It seems for some folks facts and evidences just don't matter. Or is it just like the classical loss psychology in investments? I still sometimes think that this is all just a Cosmic play and my RS stock will bounce back with full dividends. But I guess this is mind adjusting to the new reality, particularly when you were invested and thought yourself lucky to get a ticket back to Home. Oh the five stages of grief! I am the same way with my stocks, I just can't get rid of them when they lose, particulary when you like the company's product but not its management or its policy or its CEO. Tesla anyone?

Looks like I need to diversify my spiritual stocks like Brian is doing these days. Any good spiritual mutual fund or ETF, people?

@Jim
Thanks for sharing the link to your article posted November 20, 2017. What an amazing trip you had. Even more incredible that it took just two days and nights at the Dera for you to see the man behind the curtain. I realized from reading your post that I know very little about Buddhism. I remember moving to Boulder, Colorado in 1999 and jumping on the Free Tibet bandwagon as if they were the most enlightened people on earth. I still believe what happened to that country was and is a crime. No culture deserves to suffer oppression—that just goes without saying (but I said it anyway).

The brand of Tibetan Buddhism you were introduced to in Bhutan sounds horrific. What a huge step backward for mankind—and even more so for women!!

I agree, give me that old time religion any day over that... but thankfully we have more choices.

Psychology offers more insight into our “souls” than most religions and spiritual paths. I guess that’s why I like ACIM. Despite its bizarre beginning, I think it was largely influenced by the doctors of psychology who wrote it. Perhaps a mixture of divine inspiration and a firm understanding of the ego written with consistent terminology.

The text itself stands on its own. No guru. No man to be worshipped or church to attend just you, your ego and the logical thinking one needs to move beyond all the fears the ego produces. It’s about truly loving yourself and how that empowers you to love others.

So many belief systems operate by reinforcing the fears of the ego which is diametrically opposite to enlightenment.

Mr. Spence Tepper,

Thank you for your note. I was expecting a response from you. PFB my response to your argument-

What is factual information?
May I take the liberty of pointing out to you that factual information is something that is proven to be true? Planted news articles leveling unproven allegations can’t be factual information until proven in the court of law, nor can gossip on this Cult Blog be regarded as factual information.

Allegations being labelled as proven charges
It is being portrayed on this blog as if GSD (and family) is the one responsible for the financial fraud. Neither SEBI nor Supreme Court of India have made any judgements against GSD so far. Yet you hold GSD guilty of fraud based on speculations, and of-course you are cheered on by Brian, whose agenda I have categorically mentioned in my previous comment. Brian is attempting to mobilize anti-RSSB opinion by spreading this information as if they are proven facts, and in order to do so he is using gullible seekers like yourself, by subtly giving pat on the back for every negative sentiment you help him spread. Remember Brian’s ultimate agenda is vengeance for the 2005 setback. Wake up Spence, don’t be a pawn in someone’s hands and delude yourself.

Am I falsely depicting Brian’s character?
If you are hinting that point regarding Brian’s love for marijuana and wine is false, then I would suggest you ask him yourself for clarification on this. Not only has he admitted smoking marijuana here several times but proudly so. He would like marijuana to be legalized is all states. The question you should ask yourself is whether you want to rely on someone who is into all this to form your opinion on subjects of mysticism, spirituality, Sant Mat and related faiths.


Regards,
SC Jockey

@Jim
I was just reading this post and guess what?
We are at comment no 69!

Not now obviously, because I have made it 70 now! by writing this.

But, 69 was the number that was one of the causes of you leaving RSSB.
and now we are at comment 69, just when you come back on here to comment. Uncanny co-incidence?

@ Osho brother - hello.

The dreaded 69 - that made me laugh. Sharp observation bro.

@ilanovich

Right now I’m not that focused on the Fortis case. It’s like unraveling a ball of yarn and although I’m aware of the developments I’m running out of things to say about it. Everyone else is doing a pretty good job of that.

What I am focusing on at present is the study of the soul. :)

The word psychology derives from Greek roots meaning study of the psyche, or soul (ψυχή psychē, "breath, spirit, soul" and -λογία -logia, "study of" or "research"). ... In 1890, William James defined psychology as "the science of mental life, both of its phenomena and their conditions".

@ilanovich

You use words like “thrice” and then have the audacity to say therapists are just paid friends in a first world society??

I used the word “audacity” just to make this comment seem a little more dramatic (I do have a sense of humor you know).

Brian,

"Hard to believe that Gurinder Singh Dhillon wasn't fully aware of this" is like unto "hard to believe that Hillary wasn't responsible for Benghazi," or "hard to believe Trump didn't make a deal with Putin," or "hard to believe the CIA wasn't behind the Kennedy assassination," or "hard to believe Joe McCarthy wasn't right," Guilt by association and inference is a fallacy. The Indian press seem to be very aware of this.

Hey Sonya

I hear ya. The ‘soul’ - what the fuck is it?
From a Western point of view, many of us were raised/taught to just automatically think that we have one - but when you get down to looking for it what do you find?
In our search we join organisations and follow paths that say they deal with the ‘science of the soul’, and what is revealed?
Well it seems clear to me that ‘modern science/neuroscience’ and deep investigation of our ‘soul’ reveals 'we' have a tendency to create an ‘unreal’ self that we identify with most of the time. If this largely mental creation is essentially illusory then how can ‘it’ have a soul? In spite of all the carrying’s on re RSSB and GSD, one thing he did say when I was last at the Dera was ‘Soul is the truth’. This is more like it, but what is it?? :-)
Interesting to note how Jim Carrey now gives motivational talks and seems to speak fearlessly and confidently about his take on the ‘what is’. I watched a youtube clip over the weekend entitled ‘Jim Carrey leaves the Audience Speechless’ - I enjoyed it particularly at the 8.14 min mark where he stated: ‘My soul is not contained within the limits of my body. My body is contained within the limitlessness of my soul’. I think this is similar to my own take on things at present- more like a body in consciousness rather than consciousness in a body. This of course aligns soul with consciousness.
Best wishes

@ilanovich

Appreciate the sarcasm... I know you know that I know what thrive means.

I am a freelance something or other. Fascinating, right? 😃

I don’t feel like fighting you...

Tim
Soul is God if you like it or not

See the matrix movie again

IT just has fun
This is what IT likes to do
Like the King going in town anonymoussly
giving a treasure to a compassionated begger
taking a fortune from a fool
Bullah Shah said "This is Love"
It's all over the galaxies

Phil

@ilanovich

I didn’t mean to sound rude, it’s just I’m almost out of steam because the whole family has had strep throat and now I’’ve got it.

But back to one of your questions, I worked as an Executive Assistant for many years and now I do mostly design work—create marketing materials, websites, logos, messaging and presentations for different corporate clients.

Not sure if you’re aware of this but many Satsangi Westerners are therapists, psychologists, cognitive behavioral therapists (evidence based therapy).

Would I be wrong to assume that your age, culture and perhaps gender has contributed to your personal bias against therapists?

@Tim

Can you send me the link? I’m seeing several but not the exact one you referred to.

I guess I can agree with statement, “the soul is truth”.

And here’s a funny clip from the movie We’re No Animals with John Cusak. Humor is about the only thing that keeps me sane at times.

The film quality of this particular clip is crap, but there weren’t any good clips of it on YouTube (so I’m promoting the movie here). It’s just a vignette from the film. I hope you like it and if you have Netflix check out the movie.

https://youtu.be/cSiZYe0qroU (might want to watch this from your laptop or iPad or larger device than your phone).

@ Tim Rimmer,....Souls are Spirits. Spirits are layers of knotted Soul/Minds , some times having experiences in physical bodies, while at other times, having out of body experiences while dreaming, Astral traveling, or in while in the Bardo between Reincarnations.

Of course, Souls can’t be netted, and interrogated, but Spirit Mediums may Channel them, and the Sant Mat Teachings ( before GSD and Osho) corroborates that you and I both are individual souls experiencing Duality.

Please revisit the Spiritist Chapter by Allan Kardac listed in my Blog, and give it a quick read through, before you board the Atheist Express to Transmigration back to some lower Species. Don’t throw your Baby out with the bath water, so to speak.

https://eternaloasisofsouls.blogspot.com/2015/09/survival-of-individual-soul-identity.html

Cheers,
Jim

Hey Sonya

I believe this is the link:https://youtu.be/YAzTIOy0ID0. Will have a look at the Cusak clip.

Hi Jim - thanks for your interest. I appreciate your posts that are often imbibed with a wry sense of humour (thanks again).We disagree on the nature of ‘soul’, however I don’t think I’m teetering on the edge of the atheist abyss. I still think that ‘soul’ is integral to everything it’s just that there is so much conditioning and belief tied up with its ‘interpretation’ that this is problematic. And I no longer accept the view that it exists as a separate/d entity. Will have a look at your info.

Hi Phil UK - fair enough, I suppose if soul is integral to everything then that = the Big Cheese or God as you say. You been hanging with 777? In the past I definitely enjoyed readings/information pertaining to Bulleh Shah - he was the full Bhakta as I remember (thanks for the reminder) - Love is becoming another being ….. love is Being.

Rock on folks

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