« Family of RSSB guru at risk of charges of criminal conspiracy | Main | Gurinder Singh Dhillon isn't adhering to the message of "Honest Living" »

March 31, 2019

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Saying it hurts the honor of the country is the understatement of the millennium. Literally millions of peoples lives are affected negatively by this and the effects could ripple for years.

India got a major boost a few years ago by western media hoping to portray the country in a positive light to make investors comfortable. Each one of these events chips away a huge chunk of that confidence in an already tenuous relationship.

You are satisfied Brian
repeating this every day
Without insight ķnowledge ?
like the Salem witch hunters

Herman Blavatsky

Hi Brian:

From the article you cited:
"The whole thing is an unholy mess."

Truth.

Hi Herman:

Brian has shared data, information, legal documents and journal exposes.

You are free to share your own insights as well, and the factual basis for them.

This is an open forum. Don't shout at the darkness, Herman.

"...Light a candle"
Maharaj Charan Singh Ji


"The whole thing is an unholy mess.""
...
This is an open forum. Don't shout at the darkness,

Presume every suspect innocent until proven
guilty too... no matter how unholy.

Spence
"I appoint Sh.Gurinder Singh Dhillon as my successor according to order of Magaraj Sawan Singh Ji. Sangat has rendered an unparallel love to me during my tenure and I hope that Sangat will render the same love to my successor."
- Maharaj Charan Singh Ji
Surat Shabad Yoga is a path of love and devotion.Key of Shabad is with the Master.Without His order and love,one cannot succeed on this path at all.This is the Divine Law made by God Himself.
With regards

If the worst things alleged about Gurinder is true, then what should satsangis think about the guru who directly put Gurinder in material and spiritual charge of RSSB?

If the worst things about the Dhillon family's money matters are true, then what does that strongly suggest about how Charan Singh was able to live in grand style without paying employment for nearly 40 years?

That's the thing about rabbit holes, they're bottomless.

Hi Dharam
Truth is not a matter of superstition. Site any writing of Saints that says meditation requires degrading ourselves and our capacity to understand right from wrong.

Spirituality is quite different. True meditation, true internal experience only heightens our understanding of outside events. It only improves our very flawed judgment.

So if our judgment can be wrong about the Master, that works both ways.

No one can became perfect by citing dogma and ignoring facts.

On the other hand we don't know what Baba Ji is up to. But we do know fraud took place and He hasn't paid His debts. Your faith should strengthen your confidence in acknowledging these facts. Confidence that there is an explanarion, but not confidence in dismissing harm to others.

Spirituality losses all moral foundation when it loses Ahimsa.

Baba Ji should pay His bills. And if He can't, we will all chip in and where needed forgive. All that is required is Truth.

Hi Dungeness
You wrote
"Presume every suspect innocent until proven
guilty too... no matter how unholy."

Yes of course. Hyperbole is understandable, given the facts. But what matters are the facts.

We know fraud took place with the active participation of members of Gurinder's family. We know they and Gurinder haven't repaid their debts. We know the Supreme Court's deadline has passed.

We know the fraudulent actions that were undertaken by the shell companies with Gender family and associates in directorship positions, to provide those "loans" to Gurinder, hisfamily and associates.

We know Gurinder took the money and hasn't repaid.

We know Gurinder transferred the new RSSB 200 bed hospital into Fortis ' hands during its construction.

We know Gurinder sold another RSSB hospital to his own private equity firm.

We know Gurinder demolished the RSSB free school in Delhi.

These are actions. We know nothing about what is behind them.

But if you do, please enlighten us.

Yes, we should try to stick to facts, as above.

Splence
We know that you do not long to go inside .
We know that you do not want to meet the Lord.
We know you once again want to go to cycle of birth and death,instead of getting a path to Sachkhand.
We know that all allegations against Baba Ji are false.
Lastly,we know that Baba Ji is GIHF and has ascended onto the earth to take the souls to Sachkhand.He did not and cannot do any thing.
You please try to know that God is always right and cannot do anything wrong.

He did not and cannot do anything wrong*

"Charan Singh was able to live in grand style without paying employment," jay? How so? I thought he'd been a lawyer, then lived off income from the family farm. Am I mistaken? And what grand style?

Dharam, these are the words of faith, not fact. You said:

"We know you once again want to go to cycle of birth and death,instead of getting a path to Sachkhand.
We know that all allegations against Baba Ji are false.
Lastly,we know that Baba Ji is GIHF and has ascended onto the earth to take the souls to Sachkhand.He did not and cannot do any thing."

The True Enlightened Beings that utter the words you stated speak from personal experience. You do not. So just saying these words doesn't make them truthful, unless you personally have come to know this though internal experience. Having a PLM say it is one thing, because he will ask you to find it for yourself. You cannot repeat it as truth unless you know it.

Stating as fact when you have no personal knowledge OR PROOF is a false statement.

Dharam,what you say about Spence is soo not true..
You should not say things like ,”he wants to go to the cycle of transmigration.”
And also” he,does not want to meet the Lord.”
How can you say things like that??

It does not feel good you say such things, you see?


...
These are actions. We know nothing about what is behind them.
But if you do, please enlighten us.
Yes, we should try to stick to facts, as above.

Hi Spence,

Hell, I have no clue about my own actions most of the time. How
can I enlighten anyone about someone else's?

Yet, if someone here repeats the drumbeat of facts over and
over, there appears to be an agenda. So I could ask the same
question: why doesn't he enlighten us about he thinks is behind
the actions? If he doesn't, I can only assume he doesn't know
squat about them either.

But, on the other hand, he would seem to have a strong opinion.
It's just that it stays hidden up his sleeve while pretending to be
fair-minded. Ostensibly, he's simply appointed himself accuser-in
-chief, one who parrots press reports to fulfill a secret agenda.

He masquerades as a fair-minded reporter repeating facts but
stresses the same accusations ad nauseum; is quick to conflate
"facts" with"unproven allegations"; frames "Gurinder" front and
center as the mastermind of each crime; reminds us daily of His
"silence" in answering suspicions even ignoring that it mighta been
on advice of attorney.

The above litany of "We KNOW Gurinder" did this and that foul deed
is unconscionable. What about the complicity of Sunil and others in his
immediate family? Or is Gurinder responsible for any and all of the
misdeeds? Or should everyone guess that, of course, naturally, by
"Gurinder" you also meant his family and side-kick Sunil too?

What about due process? What about maintaining at least a facade
of fairness and presumption of innocence? If you think the evidence is
overwhelming now, why not admit it? Save tired, weary blog masses
the tedium of trying to understand a hidden agenda. What's behind
the relentless smear and rush to judgment?

Enlighten us.

The story about Charan's source of income::
We know that Charan was a lawyer. I believe he said he had 3 clients before getting the news that he was to become RSSB's new guru.

Then there's the "family farm," and we're also told that Charan had to quit his law career to "help out" on the farm, though his entire professional training had been in law. Generally, when a family member dies and a son has to help out the family business, that implies that the business is on somewhat shaky ground, and at least not a thriving cash cow that can support multiple families who actually don't contribute any labor to its future.

Whatever Charan may be done for that farm, in terms of man-hours it couldn't have been much. By all accounts, Charan was deeply involved with the running of the dera from the time he took the gaddi his death nearly 40 years later.

I have a simpler and I dare say more plausible explanation for how Charan lived a life of material ease for 40 years without a job -- Charan's family just paid all his bills. The stuff about Charan "working for the farm" was a necessary story for a leader of a religion that had a cardinal moral tenet that all members, including the Master, earn their own living.

Some will say that Charan "inherited" all that money, and therefore it's OK. I think that explanation is from hoot lok. There is just no evidence that Charan actually earned money while serving as RSSB's guru.

For some reason, Charan initiates ignore Charan's breach of RSSB ethics, while they have deep reservations about the current wealth of the Dhillon family and where they got all that money.

This kind of thing isn't confined to RSSB. Rajinder Singh initiates have no curiosity for how it is that their guru had no job for 30 years, but drives a Porsche and lives in a 2 million dollar home by a picturesque lake in the heart of Chicagoland's best neighborhood.

The sant mat gurus should just admit they're not earning their own living.

Dharam
Please show me the book of accounts.
If what you say is written there, I will believe it.

But as for the books at Fortis and Religare, they have been well cooked by some Satsangis in mistaken service to their Master (who has benefitted and said nothing) .

So if you will meet me inside I'll show you the books within. Or if you will examine the SEBI and Religare audits you will find they all match.

I was just like you about 12 months ago.

Brian showed me the light... To pay careful attention to the facts...

Then it all opened up like a curtain pulled back, and we are being flooded now almost daily with the Truth.

Join us.

It starts with a dispassionate reading of the evidence, and then the daily submission of these facts to Him.

The books all reconcile, Dharam.

We are being pulled by a bulldozer. And damn but Maharaji, Sawan and Jaimal put old Brian in the driver's seat!

You may ask why Brian?

He haa been doing this thankless Seva for decades.

Hi Dungeness
When you see a poor child 's school demolished by real estate interests bent on building expensive housing, then the question of Ahimsa arises.

Then you don't want to support that any more. The child's tears fall heavily. Heavier than the words of a Guru.

When you see an aged woman turned away from a hospital they rode an hour on a bus to get to, only to be told they do not have the minimum cash for treatment, because the free hospital is no more, then the question of Ahimsa arises. And that moment of pure silence, when that woman, who Hanno more family to turn to, sbears those words with utter defeat and resignation. She is resigned to a shortened and painful life. Then my rage rises. And not only mine. The Lord has a special place for those who did this.

The True Saint is the savior of these people, not their burden.

Well, jay, no matter how little involvement in the operation of the farm, to me that sounds like legitimate income, unless his family considerd him a burden. Family farm, family money. Perhaps they had tenants. Did you want Charan to split his time as Master toiling in the fields? GSD is another story, but in order to devote completely to heading RSSB, passive income would seem a prerequisite. Sawan Singh had a military pension, I believe. Now please, how did Charan Singh live in grand style, fast car and a McMansion abroad like Rajinder? Can anyone here testify firsthand?


Brian showed me the light... To pay careful attention to the facts..

Ah, Spence did the light direct spinning the "facts" to deny GSD
due process too? To frame him as masterminding the whole
scam? To repeat, over and over "We know Gurinder " did X, or
"We know Gurinder" did Y, all without a shred of proof.

The invitation is made to "join me" and examine the evidence
"inside". What if GSD offered the same argument... say he put
out a statement "I have divine reasons for my actions including
my silence. Join me inside for enlightenment. Don't worry about
appearances of impropriety. Trust me".

He'd be led away either to jail or the nut house.


Join us. It starts with a dispassionate reading of the evidence, and then the daily submission of these facts to Him.

So, the divine guidance was to ignore the adjudication of the courts?
Set up a Kangaroo Court on CofC blog and skewer GSD before nailing
him to the cross? After all, you've seen the light inside and "submitted the
facts to Him", right?

Rest easy. The fearless ones checked inside and got the green light
to proceed. There has to be the counter balance of the courts, a
careful, deliberative examination of the evidence, carefully
preserved rights of defendants, and impartiality. Otherwise we have
the Salem Witch Trials.

I don't doubt the legitimate faith and spiritual experience of others.
But, to my ear, spiritual wisdom is always quiet, understated, and
unobtrusive. It never engages in displays of superior insight. It
doesn't recruit others to "Join us" in a jihad. It doesn't advocate for
a spiritual elitism by the favored few who've "seen the light" and
think of themselves as doing "God's work".

That approach is badly misguided, if not delusional, in my opinion.

To jay: I admit though that I'm struggling with why Charan Singh named a successor who'd go on draw controversy.

Hi Dungeness
You wrote
"Ah, Spence did the light direct spinning the "facts" to deny GSD
due process too? "

Not at all. Due process is proceeding as it should. I support the work of the courts, auditors and criminal investigators. Proceed forth.

You have made an assumption about my position that us not accurate.

You wrote

" To frame him as masterminding the whole
scam?"

That is only a possibility suggested by the evidence. No more than that.

Gurinder has loans to pay,and his family was involved in the fraud, but to what extent he authored the crimes is only conjecture. I don't believe I've said any more.

Is it possible you are creating a straw man by exaggerating my comments?

You wrote

"To repeat, over and over "We know Gurinder " did X, or
"We know Gurinder" did Y, all without a shred of proof."

Again, Dungeness, this is an exaggeration. All I've pointed to are the loans he took, a matter of record, his lack of repayment also a matter of record. As for his relatives and associates, the SEBI, Supreme Court, and the new Religare leadership have already concluded they were involved knowingly in fraud. You may read the FIR and the SEBI order to confirm this. The Religare leaders, in their FIR, went much further to claim the recipients of the loans (that would include Gurinder) also knowingly participated in the fraud.

The Delhi police have confirmed this may have merit, have indicted the Singh Brothers and are investigating the other participants currently.

So it's not conclusive. But the evidence is pointing in that general direction... Like a dozen arrows moving in that direction. And each week a couple more are firmly set in flight.

You wrote

"The invitation is made to "join me" and examine the evidence
"inside". What if GSD offered the same argument... say he put
out a statement "I have divine reasons for my actions including
my silence. Join me inside for enlightenment. Don't worry about
appearances of impropriety. Trust me".

Pardon my hyperbole. The factual evidence presented is plenty.

You wrote
"But, to my ear, spiritual wisdom is always quiet, understated, and
unobtrusive. It never engages in displays of superior insight. It
doesn't recruit others to "Join us" in a jihad. It doesn't advocate for
a spiritual elitism by the favored few who've "seen the light" and
think of themselves as doing "God's work".

That approach is badly misguided, if not delusional, in my opinion."

Only if the evidence is purely subjective.

But we have listed a plethora of growing objective evidence. Evidence you can read for yourself and comment upon. Many shreds, actually.

Dungeness, why not lay out your own interpretation in a specific and pointed way to some of that?

My reference to internal verification was for Dharam, who claimed as much... Not for you. Don't get caught up in that when facts that anyone can read in court orders, legal documents, police indictments and the press are readily available.

The destruction of the RSSB hospital in Mohali, the sale of the lands to Gurinder's own private investment firm, the destruction of the RSSB free school in Delhi to private real estate interests, and the transfer of the new 200 bed RSSB hospital built by RSSB with RSSB funds from charitable hospital to Fortis for-profit hospital are documented facts.

Nothing within is going to erase that... I would humbly claim in my Crazy Spence way that the inner evidence actually reinforces it.

My inner Gurinder says "keep going!" right along side Maharaji.

So you may take that for what it's worth.

But as it is my sacred internal subjective experience, and the objective evidence is there in plentiful supply, and continually refreshed with new revelations, than I accept it as my duty to point these documents out for your education and consideration.

Just a suggestion, why not comment on the evidence, piece by piece, after reading it?



But we have listed a plethora of growing objective evidence. Evidence you can read for yourself and comment upon. Many shreds, actually.

There's certainly evidence of criminality but, after examining evidence, you
launch into a lengthy recitation of GSD's sins as though objective evidence
had already established his guilt. You know the list. Each item begins: "We
know Gurinder"... " did not repay loans" ... "did this foul deed" ... "did that
foul deed".

It's one thing to press GSD for explanations; quite another to conflate allegations
with hard evidence of guilt and to orchestrate a "smear" campaign in pursuance
of some "divine mission". I'm not ridiculing spiritual insight in any way, form, or
fashion. But I feel a strong motivation to resist unfairness and will continue to do
so.


Just a suggestion, why not comment on the evidence, piece by piece, after reading it?

Why? The issues and suspicions have been raised repeatedly. The drumbeat has
become an echo chamber. Each uninformed opinion just adds to the din.
Instead just let the courts do their job. They have a divine mission too.

I think there's a bit of presumption in how satsangis tend to view Charan Singh and the "family farm."

The key thing is that some family members were obviously working full-time to manage that farm. But Charan Singh was not. This calls into question the idea that Charan legitimately "inherited" the income from the farm.

I have to wonder if that was the terms of the will. One son will work full time to run this farm, and the other son will just get a fat check every month from the farm's profits?

Given the vast wealth of the Dhillon family, I have to wonder if the farm was the sole source of Charan's income. I suspect that it's at least possible that other family members were kicking in funds to support Charan after he became.guru.

As far as I'm concerned, a family can do whatever it wants with its money. My issue is that the gurus of RSSB were adamant that everyone on the Path be financially self-supporting, and earn their living by honest means.

"Masters never go about begging their living. They are always self-supporting." So says Dr. Johnson in The Path of the Masters.

Is it "self-supporting" to get your income directly from the charity of your relatives for 40 years?

This idea that there's a loophole to this sant mat self-supporting indice, that "when it's family, it's OK," is a codicil to sant mat ethics that Charan himself never mentioned in his talks. Charan was adamant that every good satsangi must be financially self-supporting. I recall one Q & A where Charan was shaming a satsangi for borrowing money.

There's no doubt that Charan was a very good man. But he simply wasn't financially self-supporting. I doubt very much if Rajinder Singh (the Pepsi guru to the RSSB Coke) has been self-supporting either. And Gurinder? The RSSB website insists that he is self-supporting, and as I have no idea how much he earned as a businessman in Spain, I guess it's possible he is. But I kinda doubt it. I think the Dhillon family is helping out. Why would they not, given that they did the same for Charan and no one raised an eyebrow about it? Still, it's a case of creative ethics, and given that all these gurus pretend to be truly SELF-supporting, it's a deception.

Dungeness,
If you do'nt like Spence's posts then do not read them.
As simple as that!

@anami Because it was his nephew. This is a family business.

What if GSD was not appointed by the previous Master ? What if Dera Management itself made the appointment thru' some means they know best ?
In any case, a line of Masters is bound to end at a point in time. May be that time has arrived.

Once I said in an intervieuw with Babaji “ I hate the word “chaurasi” ( transmigration).
Babaji said “ then do’nt hear it”.

I heard the word in all satsangs.

Our path has to be out of love with love ,not fear for transmigration.
Imo.

So also not love,devotion to one’s master but to god and all living beings.



If you do'nt like Spence's posts then do not read them.
As simple as that!

Hey, I love Spence. Friends inside can laugh at the
drama outside.

Ok Dungeness :) that’s great!

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