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March 27, 2019


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Brian you are seriously delusional if you think that you are a believer in free speech. What you believe in is YOUR right to free speech but not others. This is obvious when you stated that commenting is a privilege not a right. I have seen the comments of the person you referenced and it seems to me the fact that he doesn’t share your views makes you uncomfortable. I remember at one point in a previous post you coming across as a whiny little baby when you asked him to stop criticizing you and your blog. Talk about being thin skinned. Now that you will be moderating comments I’m guessing the only comments that will be published will be ones that support your boring and overly repetitive views.

Hi Michael
Obviously Brian needs no defense.

Ilanovitch had a wonderful ride on the hate train for a few months where he was free to tell us all how wrong we are for reading the news and acknowledging fraud and extortion.

He had his free speech in a multitude.

But I'm with Brian. When it becomes personal abuse, day after day, a break is needed.

Ilanovitch can share his views for as long as he likes at Atheist And Believer.


But there you cannot make personal remarks against anyone. So he might not like that restriction.

In that sense he has had much greater freedom here, but with a time limit.

I suspect the freedom to make such comments is what draws such a large

Michael, why not share your view of the news, leaving personalities out of it?

Ilanovitch, One Initiated, and 777, in an all out , no holds barred debate , VS Jessie, tAo, Osho, with Manjit and Appreciated Reader refereeing and moderating, ......with David Lane taking Notes as the Resident Scribe , to add as Foot Notes in his soon to be published “ Radhasoami Encyclopedia” would liven up the Churchless Church Action more than Brian selectively moderating and deleting posts he doesn’t like,....taking advantage of all the Wordy Free Loaders , just because they aren’t paying to blab, while he pays the Blabbing Bills.

What if it turns out the purest form of spirituality is Atheism?

@ Spencer - no such thing as spirituality in Atheism looool.

That made me 😂

Hi Arjuna:

I used to think as you do.
But I mentioned the comment because, today, I've had a breakthrough. An epiphany.
One one way it's something I've known all along. Something you also know.
And that is that the mind is not spirit. It can never be spirit.
But the epiphany is that religion and systems of belief are all mind.
Therefore dispensing with these is actually placing Reality (which is what spirit is all about, witnessing ultimate truth) is higher and beyond conception.

To refuse to accept any form of religious philosophy is a step towards that reality.

I think what has happened, is the combined teachings of our Guru Ji Brian, and Zen Master Jen have hit me in a new way. And it places my own inner experiences in a much loftier height. These are experiences. But once interpreted by mind, they are no longer that reality.

Now, it seems, one cannot be spiritual WITHOUT also being an Atheist.

It is as an essential foundation condition / requirement for transcending mental BS as any of the four vows.

But Atheism is superior because it rejects the kind of superstition and false pride you see here in defense of a cymera people create in place of the true connection to reality that awaits within.

Let me try to put this another way, since this is fairly new to me. You cannot have a belief and witness reality. A belief might help, but at some point it must become a barrier. Because reality isn't a belief. No one can be an "expert" at it anymore than anyone else, except to forget or reject all that....And this is what Atheism is.

First, take the mind out of it: Atheism.

First step to finding Truth.

And, Arjuna, I'd like to add a few more thoughts about this...

If all spiritual "philosophy" is mental, artificial representation, and therefore ultimately a barrier to experience (either within or without) then there cannot be a "school of thought" about God. There can be zero definition of God. They all must be rejected since they are, every one, a mental concept.

When inner experiences are interpreted as God, they are filtered through the mind. Therefore, while the experiences may be transcendent, our interpretation of them is superstition. We must reject any and all mental interpretations.

It's as if the mind is a cancer that surrounds true experience, and what it creates must be removed.

Therefore there can't be formal teachers, gurus in a formal position.

There may be friends who can help us in our own witness of reality. But they are friends. Not authorities at all.

Atheism, the beauty of it, is that it rejects every possible form of this mental cancer.

And that is very healthy.

You cannot be spiritual WITHOUT also being an Atheist.

Or so my limited brain seems to be awakening to.

@ Spencer,
You are not at all alone in that awakening, which tends to be uncomfortable at first. After years of struggling to reconcile many contradictory, life-affecting dogmatic beliefs (and in some ways career-affecting too), and then noticing the trajectory of dera and GSD during the last decade, sometime in early 2018, I too came to that epiphanous moment that I need to shed all preconcieved, spoonfed notions. All these beliefs are just "models" and models can be wrong just like in science. So faith does not help when the underlying model is problematic. However, breaking free was not easy and it still is not in some ways. The current unfolding events just sealed the decision for me and indicated to me that the courage lies in correcting that model lest I stagnate. I realized it is better to wish and hope that the Truth reveals itself in all its glory (and if that is ugly in its outlook, so be it) rather than try to mentally close myself and find excuses for the irreconcilabe doings.

The operative word in what you described above, at least for me and it looks like for you as well, is "interpretation". This I think is the genesis of spirituality and then religion itself, not to mention the myriads of differences in inner experiences, various gods - some similar some not, reincarnation or not. Basically, I suppose that the mentation that gives rise to these experiences is real and exists under some specific circumstances, the perception of it is also real at least to the extent how other mental schemas register and memorize these experiences (perhaps similar to how dreams get registered by cognitive processes that are different from the processes that generate those dreams), but the solidity or even the verifiability of those experiences are likely not real. However, in days of yore, the best model to put forth was magic or miracle based (compare alchemy of old vs chemistry of today).

I want to write up more about this... but some day... just wanted to say that you are certainly not off the mark, at least from my perspective.

@ Spencer - No No No.

Remain blind forever then.

You have to believe with every sinew that He exists even if it is with the delusions of mind! He then starts helping you and opens the door.

Don’t buy any of the new age stuff you write. Sorry

Regarding terms such as spirituality and atheism, it does take a long time for we humans to wake up to the obvious. Both terms are just words trying to describe concepts and concepts (in the so-called spiritual sense) are just thoughts and ideas based on other thoughts and ideas in an attempt to alleviate our fears and insecurities on issues that actually only exist in our minds. The mind is made up of information that has been absorbed from our cultures and societies and we habitually believe this content can reveal reality.

There is nothing whatsoever to discover; reality is all around us, it is us and only hidden because we view life and everything through the mass of content that is the mind. Our chasing teachings and gurus – and our so-called meditations – are of little use while we are yet to understand the machinations of this self/mind structure – that keeps us tied into the past, into delusion.

@ Turan.. Well said.

There is no need to run after perfect living masters (most of them are fake anyways), meditation techniques and other hocus focus. Save your money and time. No need to give them your donations and do free sewa at their deras. No need to crowd their deras which makes politicians flock to them for vote banks. It's a known thing that these deras get lot of money from politicians.

Donations can be given to poor and needy directly.
Sewa can be done for poor and needy directly.
Open your eyes. Their are sewa and donation opportunities all around you.

Illusions are inside your mind. Reality is all around you.
Open your eyes and see reality with out any filters (beliefs and opinions).
Your true guru is inside. Happiness is an inside job.

As gurbani says - Bani Guru Guru Hai Bani
The wisdom (of sages) is the Guru. Human Guru is really not needed.

I have no complaints neither any of us should have, Mr Brian. Your forum has provided some means to vent out as also iron out those very doubts which otherwise may have forced us to suffer indefinitely. Thanks very much.

Good Afternoon.

How does it matter whether we are atheists or believers in God. Both are 'dead' at any point of time and even now (say). What choices do we have in either case to counter this dead - reality. Then no brainss for either to decide upon as to what faiths or non-faiths we pursued.

For believers we are chained in Bodies beyond physical - astral, causal etc while for rest we have brains n logics to define life and death - matter ending here.

Pure Experience is possible in both whether we are atheist like or wholly submissive and that could only cover the gap that has become too much due to over-dependence on GIHF.

Objective of this forum has been to dissect the reality behind GIHF at RSSB which of late has become mired in an absolute controversy and which may not be condoned given His supreme Gaddi or stature akin to Jesus and like. I personally have highest regard of these mysterious Characters who have had stints over earth sometimes and therefore have similar regard for present Master and His predecessors. Whether He belongs to the Supreme category of saints may not be decided by analysing His earthly acts but 'intents' which anyways is way difficult for even close insiders except by the GIHF family itself or an honest statement by the Master himself.

Atheism overtaking asceticism is a way of saying that logics superseding the beliefs and therefore actual experience of Truth only defining His existence.

With the controversy getting big each day some of us may distance ourselves from RSSB and some may run away to become absolute dis-believers or atheists. That's the point which may still compel some of us to continue searching inside for peace or else but now as atheists or without faith or belief on GIHF anymore. Only pure immediate knowledge or experience acceptable henceforward for them.

Otherwise no worry for them(atheists). Life's like that after all - live, make merry and die.


Jim Sutherland, I like your idea. But I don't want to debate anyone. It would be more fun if we all just heartlessly and maliciously roasted Manjit and Appreciative reader, together, as a family.

And Brian, moderating comments is healthy. Not everyone out there is as mature and respectful as myself, and if they're both rude and attempting to convert us all back to religions we've already left, there's not much to say to them. Saves time too since I don't have to scroll past there couplets of baba adoration when seeking for worthwhile posts.

I think what has happened, is the combined teachings of our Guru Ji Brian, and Zen Master Jen have hit me in a new way. And it places my own inner experiences in a much loftier height. These are experiences. But once interpreted by mind, they are no longer that reality.

Hi Spencer Ji,

Haven't mystics been saying all along "We just tell stories"... ?
Pied Pipers for minds?

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