« Excellent summary of Gurinder Singh Dhillon's financial wrongdoing | Main | RSSB guru owes almost $800 million in fraudulent loans »

March 05, 2019

Comments

Feed You can follow this conversation by subscribing to the comment feed for this post.

To the best of my knowledge GSD never claims perfection. Neither does he claim to be GIHF.
The disciples might. That's another matter.
When charan Singh was given the spiritual mantle, his first reaction was to declare it a mistake.
He refused to take the position.

When he eventually did, it was on the condition that he should be considered a sevadar.

Charan Singh never claimed to be more than a Human being.

He simply gave satsang and did his best.
Gurinder is a businessman. In business things often go wrong.
If you consider him perfect then you condemn him.
If you consider him a human being, then he is simply handling the situation in the best way he can.
The people who condemn him are the same people who put him on a pedestal.

I particularly liked that Gurinder was attempting to demythologize much of Sant Mat, especially when he would say things like "Kal doesn't exist" and so on. - David Lane

According to GSD these are stories that were created but are not true. So kal did not stand on one leg worshipping sat purush for many yugas.
The story has a context. It is the equivalent of a Santa Claus story.
You eventually grow up and realize there is no Santa.
The story served a purpose at the time.

But one day you grow up.

Guru coming at death to take the soul is another story.
Regions and Lords of the regions is another story.
If you grow up you can drop the stories and realize there is only the one.

If you are not ready to grow up yet, then you can take comfort in the stories a while longer.

GIHF and "perfect master" are also stories.
Grow up or stay in comfort. Your choice

Hi Osho,

Yes, when personally asked Charan would never claim to be perfect or all knowing. Indeed, I heard him once say that he woke up every morning shaking in his boots because he knew what a great responsibility he had and that he never felt he was what people believed him to be. His dastarbandi speech explains that beautifully.

But here is the glitch. The literature that is published by Beas and continues to be published and sanctioned by Beas too often makes references to notions of "perfect masters." The best example of that is in Johnson's Path of the Masters and With a Great Master in India which are still published till this day.

The problem as the cliche goes "you cannot have your cake and eat it too." Thus, if we really want to lessen the guru hype (the notion that these humans are somehow perfect) then every book that is published or continues to be published much be transformed and it must be explained very simply and very clearly.

This has not happened, even though we have seen some efforts in this direction. It simply hasn't gone far enough. Simply put, the advertising and the product have to be on the same page. If not, it creates the very headache that we are seeing amongst guru followers (of whatever stripe) who have a cognitive disconnect.

Don't get me wrong, I applaud the radical message of "no Kal" that I heard at Beas...... and much earlier during Charan's tenure where he more or less called Anurag Sagar simply unbelievable, which was radical for its time given how much that book has been admired by previous gurus in the lineage.

I have always admired Charan for being so upfront about his humanness. But that gets undercut when the very literature that the group promotes says something quite different.

Thanks for your post,

dave

@Dave
True, the literature does often contradict what Charan Singh and Gurinder have said—mostly Gurinder (not picking on him, it’s just true).

@Osho
So, that’s really interesting... if there’s no Kal then what’s with all this karma and judgement? Can we throw that out the window with Kal? If so, then I’d consider coming back. 😄 (No Yama, Lord of Death either? Wait, is that the same guy?)

Yes the myth is still there!
In everything satsang it is about chaurasi and we are lucky ones having initiation!
Initiation by the Perfect Living Master.
Maharaji and Babaji could have stopped that...
It goes on in every satsang.
Meditation in Santmat is to Free the Soul (from charasi)!!

I personaly think that meditation is for insights and peace ..or just what there is in the moment..!
What do we( also masters know about after life and chaurasi??
It is always about that in Santmat.
That IS Santmat.
Sorry I had had angst anxiety about these karma warnings all the time.
When young initiated..
But it still is not good that way of “ thinking”
I said to Babaji I do not want want do things out of fear but out of love.
His reaction was sweet and he repeated that sentence in morning satsang..
........Still the teachings are about to free the soul from chaurasi trough initiation from a Living Perfect Master .

@David
Faqir once conversed with the Great master about Chandian effect, and I remember reading it somewhere that he said people are not ready to digest the truth, they simply can't take it.

They won't advertise the truth everywhere simply because people will stop going to Beas in large numbers, and if that happens then how will the organisation work? I feel more than 99% people are followers because they think that their masters are perfect and god in human form. Now imagine if these followers start understanding the truth completely then the entire organisation will collapse.

Now there are even stories in the RSSB books about masters personalise messages for each disciple, for example he will give different opinions to different people on same questions. In such cases imagine Osho asking this question about Kal to GSD, most of the people will think that the answer is customised to Osho and not to the entire audience. This can also be the reason why no one turned to Osho after the question-answer session was done at Haynes. I have read all the books printed in RSSB including Brian's and most of them have mentioned about masters being perfect, transfer of karmas etc

This setup is very crazy I feel.

Hi David
I met you many years ago in Leicester square, London. We had a conversation about the "satguru" film that used to be shown at satsangs at the time (so this was way back in the late 80's or 90's). People would see charan Singh close his eyes, and would say the shabd is pulling his soul up
You said, and I agreed that he was simply tired.

You then told me that you take charan as a human, so your faith cannot get shattered as you don't put him on a pedestal.
He also encouraged your work which is admirable.

I agree with your observation. However there is a reason why the books cannot be changed.

They are designed for people who are lost. They give the fairy tale.

The fairy tale is designed to pull people in. The Sikh scriptures do the same.
They say that you will get "benefits" if you tread this path.
Later the same scripture laughs at that idea. Since there is no "you" who will get the benefit? And in oneness there cannot be benefits.
Enlightenment cannot be a decoration for your ego.
You can't get a medal for it.

The truth can only be digested once you "get it"
Zen says "all teachings are false except the one that gets you there"
The issue is this:

The seeker is seeking, but he seeks a dream. A fictional sach khand.

Slowly slowly he begins to accept the truth. But not till he is ready.

What truth?

That if you realise the ONE then there is only the ONE. One cannot be two. So no "you"
If there is nothing except the ONE then and only then the teachings collapse.

No kal, no karma, no soul, no separate being except the one.
It can't come from a teaching because then its just another theory another idea another concept.

It has to come from your own realization. Then it doesn't matter what anyone says.

Then teachings changing makes no difference.

When you come, you are greedy, and the teachings appeal to your greed.

They say the perfect master will take care of you. The greedy mind loves it.

Then the guru says he is not coming at your death.
Now you think WTF ?

I got initiated and did all this and now he pulls the rug from under my feet?

Naturally you are not happy and are confused.
Instead of consoling you
GSD says " I am here to confuse you "

Exactly what osho used to do

The purpose is to confuse you. Here's why
https://youtu.be/xggTJCCxFss

Dear 777, ......I am now only One Digit short of your Avatar. I would have invited you to my Birthday Party, which was Feb. 6, but it was a Facebook Party, where only friends who reveal their real Names are allowed. I had been discussing the Bible Number, listed in the Book of Revelations, with my old Friend, Allan Chronshaw, who insinuates that the soul that lives in each of us might have lived up to 144,000 past lives before reaching perfection and becoming liberated from Duality! Interesting discussion. But here was my Facebook Post at the end of the day , after the Patty had ended. Too bad you weren’t there, as most of my Well Wishers were Indians from all over India, that have been attracted to my Facebook Travel Log and photos. Here was my Post.

“Thank you to all of my Friends who have wished me a Happy Birthday, and offered comments, good wishes, and B.D. Cakes and other advice. Today is my 77th Birthday, and the Number 7 is a very significant Number, Metaphysically, and Spiritually. SEVEN is even the Number of God, to Believers, as 6 is the number of man! I surely have no illusions of being God yet, but I also am not the tainted man I used to be in my Youth. I have traveled the world, since retirement, and have gained much more Empathy for the World’s Fellow struggling souls, as I have witnessed their Cultures and Religions. There is way too much significance describing the Number 7 to list here, but considering I have, as of today advanced to my Double 7, I am not sure if its a new beginning , or a finish of old past baggage that has no further use to my Advancement, other than Memories. I have been told in the past, that a new beginning happens in my body and soul every 7 years, so I have gone through eleven Initiations of 7 since birth, and will start my 12th tomorrow, which is also a very significant Number! Jesus had 12 Apostles, as there were 12 Tribes of Israel, with the Number 12 being the Allegorical Number needed for perfection of Completing the Journey of my Higher Soul Self, according to the Esoteric Theology of an old Friend of mine. I do not discuss Religion or Politics on my Facebook site, as I use it to share my Travel photos and other personal comments that do not lead to confrontational arguments, as Religion and Politics always end up doing. I share my religious views on my Blog, how ever. But I thought , haven reached my significant Double Seven, i.e. 77 age, I wanted to share my thoughts with my Facebook friends,
The following comments were from my old Friend, Allan Chronshaw, who I have had personal correspondence with, off and on, for the last dozen years or more. We have not always agreed on Spiritual and Religious debates, as we have traveled different Paths on the Way to the same Goal, yet seem to have recently met on the Cross Roads again. Here was a recent email to me from Allan. I don’t think he will mind me sharing it on my Double 7 Birthday.

“Jim:
You begin your life as a single point in the Cosmic Mind -- but if you are a sincere seeker who evolves the mind, then you overcome your human organic limitations. From an Eastern perspective, I believe that Zen Buddhism evolves the minds of their disciples by contemplating paradoxical opposites. By coming to understand the paradoxes of life, you can work on the process of expanding and deepening your consciousness. Valid religious paths teach to observe self -- becoming cognizant of one's thoughts as you interact with others. When the Gospels teach not to judge other, it is because those who learn to use the intuitive power of empathy, and understand that each person you encounter is a reflection of part of yourself, then you can begin to Triangulate and incorporate that part of yourself that you see reflected in others within your own consciousness. In the same way that your physical body begins its existences as a one-cell embryo -- and from this one cell, the whole of the body with its countless systems is formed. Holographically, the mind works the same way with respect to initiating the expansion of mind, the deepening of consciousness, and the enlightenment of the individual. The people you encounter that you are able to empathize with, permits you to work on self through their reflection. And this enables you to expand your consciousness. As you begin to understand the paradoxical opposites, this enables you to begin to deepen your consciousness.

You have evolved through many levels of mental-expansion by understanding where you were at -- by seeing the limitations of that level -- and moving beyond those limitations. And you did this level upon level. You moved beyond the Churches as you embraced the various esoteric systems. And you moved beyond those groups as you began to seek your inner self. We can now converse in a meaningful manner, because you have continued to expand and deepen your mind and consciousness. You collected the countless fragments of wisdom you observed scattered in the world, and you successfully put the puzzle of life together. Thus, you have arrived at a higher level of consciousness by wholographically building the mind in the same way that the body evolves from an embryo, into an adult.

Most people's mental development becomes derailed by their beliefs, mindset and lifestyle. It is impossible for a Jehovah's Witness to develop their minds beyond a very low level of comprehension and awareness. Their beliefs are a great obstacle that inhibit their development -- but since the mind develops through the choices we make and the exercise of freewill, the Witnesses inhibit their own development. In my last communication I demonstrated where cutting edge modern science has proven the existence of Spirit and the wisdom of the mystic. Yet, the vast majority of people who cling to the clergy of traditional science, ignores and even rejects the new emerging findings of physics, and they therefore inhibit their development. You are a vegetarian -- and thus, your diet is permitting your body to achieve the vibrations of your higher spiritual nature. You have advanced to the level where you are at, because you have successfully removed the obstacles that anchor most other people to organic human consciousness.

Allan”

Cheers,
Jim

PARTY,....not Patty

Jim

@PJ

"If there are no regions, then what do the 5 names pertain to?"

*******

Did GSD say there were no regions? If so (which kinda makes sense since there's no Kal or much light and sound in the most recent version of Sant Mat) then I feel like that pretty much sums it up. Think you might be on to something...

No regions = No names
No names = No simran
No simran = No surat shabd yoga

Can GSD please clarify the current RSSB views on different regions? If Kal left, who's running the first realm? Who's watching Trikuti...

This is starting to feel like season 3 of Lucifer (one of my favorite Netflix shows).

I'm not being a smartass, just really confused.

To All, the following is taken from Elizabeth Kubler- Ross’s Book, “ The Wheel of Life”, which I quoted from, in my initial comments to Dr. Lane. She was in her last days, shortly before she died, after haven lived a life of service to the dying and sick, that even Sister Theresa would have admired. But the difference was, Dr. Ross was never religeous! She would be a hard Act for any of us to follow, including any Radhasoami Masters I have ever read about!
““I truly believe that my truth is a universal one—above all religions, economics, race and color—shared by the common experience of life.
All people come from the same source and return to the same source.
We must all learn to love and be loved unconditionally.
All the hardships that come to you in life, all the tribulations and nightmares, all the things you see as punishments from God, are in reality like gifts. They are an opportunity to grow, which is the sole purpose of life.
You cannot heal the world without healing yourself first.
If you are ready for spiritual experiences and you are not afraid, you will have them yourself. You do not need a guru or a Baba to tell you how to do it.
All of us, when we were born from the source, which I call God, were endowed with a facet of divinity. That is what gives us knowledge of our immortality.
You should live until you die.
No one dies alone.
Everyone is loved beyond comprehension.
Everyone is blessed and guided.
It is very important that you do only what you love to do. You may be poor, you may[…]”

Excerpt From
The Wheel of Life
Elisabeth Kübler-Ross
This material may be protected by copyright.

Jim Sutherland

Just my own take on knowing and reality :-

The reality we are presented with at this moment is our reality. What we do not know is irrelevant – until we experience it! Our reality is our relationship with our environment as it appears in the moment. As we overlay it with concepts – like and dislike, good or bad, our beliefs, thoughts and opinions – we make a problem of it, become confused, perhaps afraid and insecure. So we bring in more concepts, perhaps in the form of beliefs to justify or allay.

In knowing more (beneficial in countless ways) does not help to understand reality. We may understand the nature of something but its reality is still far away while it is still a concept to us. The mind, thought, is a necessary and great survival aid but it can obscure reality as reality is 'what is', 'now' and not thought which is the past and therefore a product of mind - a concept.

As an outsider to RSSB I've always found it interesting that when initiates bring up the topic of an RSSB guru's imperfection, Gurinder Singh is invariably their sole example. And yet a comparison of Gurinder with his predecessor Charan Singh (shorn of what either "possibly' did) shows that them to be ethically identical. So we have Charan always getting a pass, while Gurinder is excoriated. But if money issues, land development, changes in Sant Mat teachings and unPC opinions make an RSSB guru imperfect, then Charan Singh certainly qualifies as such, every bit as much as Gurinder does.

Why this obvious favoritism, and the impulse to lay all blame on the current guru when a previous guru in his line was just as imperfect? It's a phenomena that appears in many religious movements. Though both gurus were identically repobative, Trungpa devotees still wholly venerate Trungpa, while they wholly loathe Osel Tendzin. Followers of Eckankar deplore Darwin Gross, but still exalt the even more deplorable Twitchell. In today's Catholic world, "Trads" blame Pope Francis for everything that happened under the watch of the last 4 popes, while they call John Paul II a saint and offer an excuse for every criticism made against him.

It seems to me that some critics of RSSB still cherish the Perfect Guru concept. They've just redefined the ideal to suit their taste, using a predecessor of their guru as whipping boy.

Sant Mat is no different to other religions. People still believe in Jesus, that he was crucified to save the souls of believers. People are desperate to believe that there is something else other than this mundane existence on this planet. I still want to believe that there are spiritual regions that I will traverse when I die, otherwise whats the use of living a good moral life. May as well just eat, drink and be merry. I can understand why hallucinogens are so popular.

The 'unknowing' lifestyle is probably the best way to live, because basically we don't know anything about life after death, if it even exists. Even out of body experiences could simply be manufactured by the brain.

I still have an ego and don't want to believe that I will eventually merge as a little drop into the ocean. Why bother with living a good and caring lifestyle and then at the end just 'plop' back into the ocean I go... lol.

Ah well, back to contemplating nothingness and emptiness !!

"I still have an ego and don't want to believe that I will eventually merge as a little drop into the ocean. Why bother with living a good and caring lifestyle and then at the end just 'plop' back into the ocean I go... lol."


Apparently Jen, it is because we have an ego (or self/mind)that we suffer. As I understand it, meditation is ultimately to do with seeing the illusory nature of the self/ego/ mind as being the cause of our fears, insecurities, conflicts and suffering. With the ego/self operating intelligently as a necessary aid to daily living, then the brain/mind can deal with what is rather than what may be or should be.

Further, when the self/ego/mind is realised for the emptiness that it is then the reality of the moment is all that remains - - - but, the useful mind/self structure still remains.


Also, I tend to think that we are not serious about our quests and meditations. We seem to want the 'enlightening' experiences and realisations yet still keep the mind/self operating in the same way. That is, maintaining the pleasure principle, the euphoria and highs of 'the search' - not to mention the stimulating conflicts that come from our beliefs, thoughts and opinions. It is said that maintaining a self/I structure keeps the mind busy at avoiding reality.

Whereas (as I understand it) once realisation occurs life continues in a very ordinary way - living the reality of the moment as it is rather than continuously through the reactive conditioning of the mind/ego/self structures.

Hey Jim

A belated appreciative birthday wish. Well done in getting to 77. A little ditty came to mind:

When JS turned seventy seven
He ate bread that was clearly unleaven
It came from JC
Who helped set Jim free
Now he’s often travelling to ……
……. lots of interesting places!

I notice you include 144,000 in one of your recent posts - I think you mentioned this number somewhere before? Did it have something to do with the JW’s?
Certainly agree that particular religions really put the blinkers on. As I quoted once before ‘Isn’t life simple when you know you're right all the time’ - kinda sums up most strongly held belief systems in my view. I think such an outlook can easily develop when any teaching basically says you are now saved coz you’re with ‘us’. Provides great comfort and confidence ….

In regard to what gets saved well who t f knows? I haven't much of a clue (and how much does it matter?) Although you included the word soul initially when talking about your friend Allan Cronshaw, I noticed in the quote that followed, AC does not mention the soul once - consciousness, the self and mind yes, but not soul - interesting?
I remain of the view that soul does not relate to some sort of individuated entity, but does relate to expansion of consciousness - about the best I can do.

Hey Sonya

Yep fair comment re teachings. Add all the apparent contradiction with new and ‘old’ teachings to the ongoing material drama and its gotta be a recipe for big change at RSSB. In previous posts from Osho Robbins I’ve been fascinated when he tells of standing there by the mic elucidating responses from GS that hardly anybody else seems to get. When you believe something so strongly, particularly in regard to the GIHF guru then anything can just about be justified. I guess that if all the allegations etc are deemed true by the justice system and courts convict, then several thousand more devotees might wake up and there will be much heartache.
In regards to sound and light - it seems to me they will always be part of the ‘picture’. If you look at what science tells us about the make-up of matter a lot of it seems to come down to energy and vibrations. Yet, as David Lane points out, we are mostly blind when it comes to the electromagnetic spectrum in this physical universe. However, it does seem that as we take more of ‘ourselves’ out and realise ‘we’ know very little - more can be revealed. That’s my take at present.

Best wishes.

@Tom Rimmer,....Thanks for the good wishes. The 144,000 is an imprtant Number to J.Ws. Their teaching is that only 144,000 souls inhabit Paradis with Jehovah, while all other JWs will remain on earth, which will become Heavenly Earth after the Battle of Armeggeden. A.C. has some Cousins that are JWs.

His Theology is a little hard to understand, and since he has thousands of Internet Pages describing what he believes, I won’t even start to describe it here. But for certain, I wouldn’t sell him short, as he has answers for any Mystic that has never been able to find the answers to their questions from any other Mystic, Scripture, or Book. But his answers are Unorthodx, and very difficult for most to grab on to.

As for souls,.....I have already exhausted my thoughts about soul and Soul, which remain on my Blog. But I have pretty much concluded my final thoughts about My opinion on Oneness on my last blog entry. I doubt that I will discover any thing more before I die and exit Jim’s container permanently.

I am retiring from arguing, and find it more relaxing making Peace. When it comes right diwn to it, is, the only soul I have ever found that completely agrees with me any how, is ME! HaHa

Best Regards,
Jim

About the ego bashing, the usual brain washing that satsangis suffer from, probably because we were taught to be submissive and humble. Well guess what peeps, it doesn't work, I have yet to come across a satsangi who does not have an ego. Besides its preposterous to expect that humans can live without an ego, a sense of self. Ego is our own unique identity. Of course an overblown arrogant ego is difficult to deal with but even then, once again, who are we to judge?

Turan says: "it is because we have an ego (or self/mind)that we suffer".

Dictionary: Ego...

• Psychoanalysis: the part of the mind that mediates between the conscious and the unconscious and is responsible for reality testing and a sense of personal identity.

I really liked this comment posted by ilanovitch:

"Ego / ahankar is a fundamental aspect / condition of mind required as part and parcel of existence in the material world, whether for purposes of survival or evolution or for the necessary ability to function and operate as an independent entity within human body, it is a vital explicit aspect along with other functions of the mind, manas, buddhi, chit, (and ahankar - ego) according to Vedantic Hindu philosophy and psychology.
consciousness (chit), thinking and feeling (manas), intellect (buddhi) and ego (ahankar). They work in an interactive way together to make up what we know as the mind."

Thank you ilanovitch !!

When talking of the ego we need to remember that the ego (including the concepts of Id and superego) are all aspects of the psyche, the mind; as such, the entire mind phenomenon is a mental construct produced through the interaction of the body/brain organism and its environment. It is tempting to view the mind as a reality in its own right instead of seeing it for what it is :-

Self, Ego, Id, Superego:- Developed by Freud as part of a personality theory are all are aspects of the mind.

Mind:- The accumulation of information gathered through the senses and 'stored' in the brain. It is from this information that the mind is formed – which is necessary for our survival and day-to-day living. From the mind's contents (where we are born, our nationality, our religion and culture, our parents, environment, history etc.) the self structure emerges. It is a construct and through this construct we live our lives and try to make sense of the world we inhabit.

Along with the necessity of having a mind and self-structure the mind can only be very limited as by its very nature it is a vehicle constructed from the past and of the past. For this reason the present moment is obscured – the 'what is', the ever changing reality of life.

To exclusively live within the mind structure is to live and view life from the past (again, necessary for survival). All very comforting but unreal. Meditation means to observe how the mind and 'self-structure' process continuously overlays reality with a 'reality' constructed from our beliefs, desires and conditioned predilections.

Brian,

In this post you are subtly trying to depict that you and Professor David Lane have same line of thinking, maybe you want to use his comment in an attempt to prove your point. See I told you, even David Lane says the same, sort of. Isn’t it Brian? If you are attempting to depict that your line of thinking is similar to that of David Lane, I would suggest don’t try, because two of you are vastly different personalities.

David Lane has often posted that he is still very much on the path, you on the other hand say that you have left the path. Professor Lane has been a vegetarian and doesn’t smoke/drink, while you Brian love your daily dose of marijuana and wine. David still loves his guru Charan Singh, while you have disowned even your guru. Lane still likes Surat Shabd Yoga meditation and meditates more than ever as he mentioned in his comment, but you have moved to Buddhist meditation, though I am not sure how it helps when you are high. Professor Lane does his analysis based on facts but you rely on speculation and gossip. David Lane’s behavior reflects grace and in stark contrast you reflect bitterness for being removed as a RSSB speaker.

So I don’t think you two are similar Brian!


Regards,
SC Jockey

Verify your Comment

Previewing your Comment

This is only a preview. Your comment has not yet been posted.

Working...
Your comment could not be posted. Error type:
Your comment has been saved. Comments are moderated and will not appear until approved by the author. Post another comment

The letters and numbers you entered did not match the image. Please try again.

As a final step before posting your comment, enter the letters and numbers you see in the image below. This prevents automated programs from posting comments.

Having trouble reading this image? View an alternate.

Working...

Post a comment

Comments are moderated, and will not appear until the author has approved them.

Your Information

(Name is required. Email address will not be displayed with the comment.)

Welcome


  • Welcome to the Church of the Churchless. If this is your first visit, click on "About this site--start here" in the Categories section below.
  • HinesSight
    Visit my other weblog, HinesSight, for a broader view of what's happening in the world of your Church unpastor, his wife, and dog.
  • BrianHines.com
    Take a look at my web site, which contains information about a subject of great interest to me: me.
  • Twitter with me
    Join Twitter and follow my tweets about whatever.
  • I Hate Church of the Churchless
    Can't stand this blog? Believe the guy behind it is an idiot? Rant away on our anti-site.