« Mumbai bolly-hop team gives a miracle dance performance | Main | My definitive answer to why I left Radha Soami Satsang Beas »

March 01, 2019

Comments

Feed You can follow this conversation by subscribing to the comment feed for this post.


Defenders of the guru are fond of saying that the death threats and massive financial fraud are just allegations. That's true, but they're believable allegations, given what's been previously reported on this blog about Gurinder Singh Dhillon.

Brian, I agree with the latter, but not the former. There's clear
evidence of fraud and I'm sure indictments are coming. Again
though, without adjudication, only the "usual suspects" are on
view. Those ready to see GSD doing a "perp walk" now are as
loony as those absolving him without investigation.

But don't conflate fraud allegations with death threats. There's
no fact pattern that links GSD to violence. As for the allegation
of a tape sent by GSD's attorney, Malva hasn't turned it over to
the police that I'm aware of. No forensics confirm the atty's
voice or establish what was said. It's a phantom allegation
against the atty at this point. There's no evidence to finger a
"Mr. Big" lurking in the shadows either.

Let the drama unfold in court, not in a "blog saloon".

Brian is going to his death bed with this guru on his mind. He simply can't let it go, he's hooked, line and sinker to the same 'One' his sworn vendetta is chained to, like a broken log to a Bulldozer. Simply no escape once hooked, always hooked, come hell or high water. As is Malvinder and Sonya, or the butterfly called (Sheena), likewise, the chains of attachment are just that much too strong for the feeble ego to negate or dismiss "dispassionately".

@Dungeness

Justice BYRON WHITE, “The purpose of a jury is to guard against the exercise of arbitrary power — to make available the commonsense judgment of the community as a hedge against the overzealous or mistaken prosecutor and in preference to the professional or perhaps over conditioned or biased response of a judge.”

(Note: commonsense judgement)


@777
I’m sorry, what???

In a technical sense it is necessary to have teachers and instructors – to teach us how to read and write, how to build and construct, how to learn maths and so on. Then there are the spiritual authorities. It is part of our conditioning to accept authorities. Such acceptance is based on greed, fear and insecurity. Psychologically we seem to need someone or some teaching to tell us how to attain some ultimate prize – heaven, inner peace, enlightenment or to be saved!

Religions have failed. They have generally resorted to faith – “just believe what we say and be saved”. Religions though are divisive and generate conflict, ironically destroying the very security craved. Then there are the gurus, masters and holy men who exist by virtue of the gullibility and neediness of there followers. They also generate division, division through being one of the elite or chosen as opposed to them who reject there master: and there is always the internal conflict of having to accept things (in the cognitive dissonance sense) that doesn't feel right.

The villain of all this turmoil and conflict is obviously thought. Thought, through fear and insecurity has invented various gods along with a multitude of beliefs to ward off the inevitability of death and annihilation. Our egos (thought/mind created) find it too painful to accept the fact that it is just an ephemeral mental construct – hence its grandiose inventions.

The ego-based arguments and champions for and against gods and gurus will rage on until we understand the processes of authority worship that drive us to believe and follow such absurdities.

777 wrote: "Guys & gurls stop these allegations - Don't attack a Holy man
it is at your own risk"

Indeed so my Brother!

I recall when both yourself & Spence criticised and denigrated Baba Faqir Chand (despite being woefully under-informed about him in physical reality.....such, I guess, is the inestimable value of your inner guidance :) and his message.

Just a few short months before the recent indefensible revelations about RSSB & Gurinder came out.

Indeed, do not attack a "holy man".....it is surely at your own risk.....not because they seek vengence or are even aware of the "attacks" (like you appear to be), but it is more than they do not even exist, so you are merely having a battle with your own mind.

Here's some words from a genuine "holy man". Perhaps we should have paid more attention. Truth is spoken in whispers, not in thousands of satsangs, books, in front of thousands and millions of religious followers etc:

"Do you think that the present method for initiation adopted by the Gurus is for the well-being of mankind? Decidedly not. These Gurus are doing this all for their own name, fame, and centers. This method of initiation would ruin those who get it because they are not aware of the thoughts of their subconscious mind. They do not know the power and the secret of their thoughts.

O man, your own mind is your Guru and the follower."

"Many of the present Gurus admit that they are not aware of manifestations seen by their followers, but they do not speak it publicly. All manifestations are the creations of your faith and mind."

"Adoption of truth is not the worship of Baba Faqir Ji or his manifested form. The truth is your own "self." I am emancipated from duality and thus I want to see you emancipated. I wish that you could understand the truth and save yourself from the exploitation of Mahatmas and so-called Gurus."

"People think that I am against Gurudom. No, I do not denounce it. The radiations of the Guru influence the deserving aspirants. Importance of the Guru is unquestioned. But Guru should himself be self-realized. The present Gurus of different centers have their own part to play for the betterment of humanity. But those who simply work for their name and fame cannot speak the Truth to their followers. They are a big pious fraud. They themselves are the victims of this illusionary world. Their followers may possible gain something in life due to their faith and belief, and may attain liberation as well. But these selfish Gurus cannot attain it, because they do not follow the dictum "Truth Always Wins.""

"Why should I make claims that I am a saint of the time when I do not manifest anywhere? Why should I tell a lie? Had I not spoken this truth, I would have collected huge wealth. But why, and what for?"

"All these so-called miracle-makers are big cheaters. It is not a miracle of any Guru, but your faith that works. "

http://dlane5.tripod.com/point2.html#FA

Listen to this carefully, folks, the whispered words of a real "holy man".

Listen very carefully:

"Their followers may possible gain something in life due to their faith and belief, and may attain liberation as well. But these selfish Gurus cannot attain it, because they do not follow the dictum "Truth Always Wins.""

Listen to what he's saying.

He is not playing some bullshit zero-sum heirarchical game of this religion, path or guru is the only "real" or "valid" one. He is not, in any sense, trying to sell himself or his organisation.

He is not claiming to be the holder and dispenser of grace, or liberation, the sole source or guide to liberation or freedom or god or whatever.

He is not DIS-EMPOWERING his "followers" (like a spiritual vampyre).

What he is actually trying to do is liberate people of their dependencies (in some ways - though I'm sure they would disagree in many ways - the "ego-based arguments" Turan refers to in the very insightful post above).

He is EMPOWERING his followers.

He is EMPOWERING ALL OF US.

He is saying it is not the "guru" who liberates......but OUR OWN "faith and belief".

Truth Always Wins.

Whisper it quietly.

ilanovitch, I spend essentially zero time thinking about the RSSB outside of the few days when I write a blog post about this particular example of the ridiculousness of religions. So in no way am I obsessed with Gurinder Singh. I just enjoy using his (likely) criminal follies to illustrate why blind faith in a religion that possesses no demonstrable evidence that it is true is a fool's game.

But one that billions of people love to play. There are many more sheep in the world than lions, just as there are many more followers of religious leaders than independent observers of reality.

If I had been a Christian for 35 years before I saw the light and deconverted, I'd be pointing out the flaws of Christianity on this blog. If I'd been a Muslim, the same would apply to Islam. I was a member of Radha Soami Satsang Beas, though, so that's why many of my posts focus on the faith I know best.

I've been writing more frequently about Gurinder Singh Dhillon recently because of the news stories in the financial press about him that people have been emailing me links to. I don't search out those stories. Other people send them to me.

I'm curious: why do you care about what I choose to write about? I never have gone to a blog that, say, has posts about golf and asked the blogger why they write about a subject they're interested in.

Yet you and others frequently claim that I'm obsessed with the RSSB guru. Not only is this false, it's just weird that people would be obsessed with asking about someone else's supposed obsession.

It seems to me that this is a case of "attack the messenger if you have no way to refute the message." Since my arguments against religions and those who lead them are so strong, I guess it's a compliment that people want to attack me rather than my message.

Hi Brian
You wrote
"It seems to me that this is a case of "attack the messenger if you have no way to refute the message." Since my arguments against religions and those who lead them are so strong, I guess it's a compliment that people want to attack me rather than my message."

Indeed it is.

This morning, human kind took one more dramatic step towards our next destination... A colony on Mars...

https://spacenews.com/falcon-9-launches-crew-dragon-on-key-test-flight/

This great flight must endure unbelievable atmospheric, torsion, and temperature stresses. But the reward? PROGRESS.

Sorry Brian it doesn't quite seem to add up. This plight of the messenger plea.

You set up this website / blog in 2004 as you so claim. 15 years of passionate attention to the behind the scenes goings on in the RS patrons familial and business dealing with one specific motive at the fore of your research.

When exactly did you "denounce" RS teaching as valid meditation practice and Baba Gurinder Singh as a perfect guru / saint? Before or after your epic manuscript of 'return to the One" thesis on the Greek mystic Plotinus was rejected by RSSB publication department?

It don't quite wash as a dispassionate pastime that perhaps 80-90% of the heated dialogues on most of your pages are mild disassociated endeavor to discredit GS Dhillon as a figurehead of spiritual authenticity.

It seems rather that you undertake this championing of spiritual "independence" (whatever that may specifically mean) as a direct personal vendetta to intently undermine or otherwise unequivocally refute any validity to the fundamental fabric of RS teaching, and / or guru worship. Specifically relevant to your personal referenced and subsequent retracted relationship with the spiritual head of RSSB centre.

Hi ilsnovitch
I'm a great believer in journals that demand a statement about potential conflict of interest from their authors.

Since you have gone to the trouble to try and infer such sources of potential bias in Brian's narratives, which I believe stand firmly upon their own premises, what may I ask are yours?

Do you believe in God? What religion?
Do you meditate? What practice?
Were you initiated into a practice? Where, when and by whom?

I don’t have much else to say to all of this other than yes, it is PROGRESS that this blog continues shining light in on the darkness of RSSB and I agree, it’s a fools game. It’s a heartache.

ilanovitch, I've got to correct several things that you got wrong or somewhat incorrect in your comment above.

(1) I started this blog in 2004 after George Bush was re-elected president with the strong support of the religious right. That was the reason. My first month's posts reflect my thinking at the time. One post described my "needing to go" at a 1977 Dera bhandara in the Charan Singh era. I was still involved with RSSB as a sangat secretary and speaker in November 2004.

https://hinessight.blogs.com/church_of_the_churchless/2004/11/index.html

(2) "Return to the One" actually wasn't rejected by the RSSB Publications Department. It's more accurate to say that RSSB staff and I didn't agree on content the staff wanted me to add to the book. Even though this was a book about a Greek philosopher, they wanted quotes from Charan Singh to be part of each chapter, and for me to credit Charan Singh (who initiated me in 1971) with the ability to write the book. I didn't agree to these changes.

When RSSB put the book project on hold, I decided to publish it myself. I offered to have RSSB publish its own edition with the Charan Singh quotes, but I wasn't willing to compromise on presenting Plotinus' teachings as accurately as possible.

I described this disagreement in several blog posts:

https://hinessight.blogs.com/church_of_the_churchless/2008/02/my-inside-look.html

https://hinessight.blogs.com/church_of_the_churchless/2012/03/my-letter-to-a-supposed-godly-guru.html

https://hinessight.blogs.com/church_of_the_churchless/2005/11/how_writing_a_b.html

(3) Most of the blog posts on Church of the Churchless have nothing to do with Gurinder Singh Dhillon or RSSB. You should look through the archives. When there is news in the Indian financial press about the guru's alleged misdeeds, I write about this. Otherwise I write about other subjects. Because many visitors to this blog are either current RSSB members or have a previous connection with RSSB, it makes sense that I write about RSSB when the guru is in the news.

(4) You're right. I no longer believe that the RSSB teachings are true. In fact, I don't believe any religious teachings are true that rely on unfounded supernatural assumptions. Again, if you look through the archives, or use the Google search box in the right sidebar, you can see the wide range of subjects I write about.

Sorry again I have noticed Great zealous extended critique + narratives and posts relative to Gurinder Singh's activities both in his private capacity as a father, husband, cousin, business associate, and in his public capacity as head of the RSSB colony and centers, and director of policy and of RS teaching in a modern context.

If this blog was an initial reaction to US electoral right wing politics activated by anti Bush sentiments I am obviously mistaken that it's been a reaction to something else like a rejection of certain believing in prior held principles or a sudden antithesis to belief in a disciple - teacher relationship as means to an end in self realizing undertaking.

Spence Tepper to answer your direct inquisition into my association / alignment with any possible religious beliefs, spiritual background, philosophy, meditation practice etc. I'm an initiate of Huzur Charan Singh.

ilanovitch, your apology is accepted. Naturally I realize you couldn't be as familiar as I am with this blog and my personal history of recognizing the falsity of RSSB and other religions. Hopefully the information I shared about Return to the One and why I started this blog has cleared up some misunderstandings.

Anyone is free to believe an allegation is believable. But you can't credibly state that an allegation is believable by referencing "previous reporting" of evidence to support that allegation, when no such evidence has ever actually been reported or produced by anyone. There simply is no evidence of Gurinder Singh or his agents issuing death threats to anyone. Crying wolf isn't useful.

jay, Malvinder Singh says he has recordings that prove Gurinder Singh Dhillon made death threats against him. That would be evidence, right? This is how criminal proceedings work. Charges are filed, then evidence is examined by a court of law. Usually, or often, the evidence isn't produced right at the start.

And how would you call a formal criminal complaint "crying wolf." Malvinder's complaint is a big long loud wolf howl that contains detailed assertions about the guru's wrongdoing.

All I said is that it was believable that the RSSB guru would make death threats, given what is known about him and his personal style from other information -- such as what has been shared on my blog. Gurinder isn't a "kind and gentle" guru. He's rough and tumble.

Spiritual level of realization and the exactitudes of extended karmic account and enactments are not mutually exclusive.

Study some "spiritual" lives and consequent detractions from reasonable level attributed to human 'Decency'

From Guatama Buddha who proclaimed with forthright experienced and exalted realized certainty that "everything in material universe is born of and exists in suffering", everything experienced in this plane of action and reaction and karmic awagawan is as a result and a perpetuation of suffering.

From Jesus (the Christ) brought to book by Sanhedrin piety to answer for his anti religious 'heresy', denied by his own disciples, betrayed by his close confidants, hung out to suffer at the hands of merciless inhumane politically motivated religiosity.

To Muhammad the illiterate mystic against the Meccas and Medinas of societal and tribal indoctrinations leading to civil war amongst siblings, as was the case in Arjuna's lessons of detached association from those "near and dear" through the teachings on the battlefield by Krishna.

Study the horrific enactment of outright religious brutality where Mansur is dismembered and beheaded in public for refusing traditional Muslim rites and practices.

Likewise Aurungzeb's paranoia in beheading the Armenian Jew, naked mystic Sarmad, the guru-teacher to his own elder brother Dara Shukoh darling and heir to Shah Jahan's Empirical throne.

Aurungzeb's entrapment of Sarmad for refusing to utter sacred Muslim recitation in public and branded infidel and beheaded on Delhi court steps. Beheading and mutilating his own brothers head and sending it to his imprisoned father as a jealously enraged siblings "blessing".

The despicable actions of Aurungzeb against Guru Teg Bahadur similar to the fate of Sarmad, murdered, beheaded through Moghul betrayal of trust and again his son Gobind Singh losing his own sons to Moghul brutality.

These are the vagaries and ruthless exactitudes of actions and reaction through interaction and association, by exacerbated dictate of karmic action and repercussion where none are spared.

Neither guru or mystic beheaded, crucified or burnt alive. Nor disciple denying, betraying and denigrating those who's sole mission is their own uplifting.

To levels of betrayal of father by son, brother by brother, disciple to emancipator, or the harsh proclaimed agony of a lone suffering "Eli Eli, lama sabacht ani" why forsake me in my hour of need "lord forgive them, for they know not what they do".

To cut a tension a bit hope you can hear my song even you Brian.
https://artist.landr.com/music/628810178551

@ Brian - hello.

Why did you delete my post? Is is due to my mentioning of 777???

I was expressing my opinion - are you now denialing me that???

And guys if anybody has a larger amount of money under his/her belt to support the art and artist like me like kickstarter thing i would be glad cause my comp just got broke and i lost cca 30 beats...so i would need a sponsor who is willing to invest 5500€ for equipment like computer and additional software. Guys i am serious if anybody can help i would be very glad cause i love the art of making music. Peace

Arjuna, yes, 777 doesn't get to have his comments left up on this blog after he ignored repeated requests to stop being preachy and write coherently. So generally I also delete comments that mention 777 to avoid confusing people reading comments. So I recommend not replying to 777. Just ignore him, like I do.

Okay in apologetic notion,

If I may inquire of Sonya
Why the desperate need to shine an alleged illuminating 'light' on the 'darkness' as you fervently put it, of RSSB?

How emphatically and utterly has RSSB teachings or the actions / words of GS Dhillon affected you so personally?

Hi Brian. Why did you leave RSSB? A) because you were fired from speakership( like osho robbins) B) Because your book wasn't published on your terms C) You did not get anywhere in meditation so gave up D) You did not like GSD. Please pick only 1 option or reply in 1 sentence only if none of the options are suitable! Others please ignore this question!

@ilanovitch
Funny you asked, I just shared in an email to Brian yesterday exactly what took place last December at the Dera and what happened on a few other visits there that has me “fervently” and passionately committed to shining a light on RSSB. But it’s a little too personal... I might find a way to summarize it and share in a post at some point but not right now.

Bottom line is I don’t think people should confuse RSSB with Sant Mat. It’s like mixing church and state, religion and politics. Somethings just don’t go together.

And for the record, GSD telling me that the problems I shared with him were first world problems (which I assure you they were not—the very opposite in fact) is so outrageous it’s almost laughable. I mean, we’re talking about a guy who lives like a rockstar, jets around the world first class, and has people waiting on him hand and foot. Whereas I am currently the “breadwinner” in our family and we certainly don’t have the kind of lifestyle he does—not even close. Not even REMOTELY close. He lives at a celebrity level of luxury. I don’t think he would last one day in my shoes. I mean, he’d have to make his own chai—he’d just fall apart at the thought of it...

The difference is I don’t need that kind of lifestyle to be happy. I’m happy with my circumstances—it’s just I was struggling with some pretty serious (non-lifestyle related) issues at the time he laid into me and told me to stop feeling sorry for myself. To say he has a deficit in empathy is a gross understatement.

But for him of all people to say that to me was and is beyond absurd. The extreme hypocrisy of it all...

Guru, I didn't do what you asked. I did even better! I wrote an entire blog post where I answered your question, "Why did you leave RSSB?"

https://hinessight.blogs.com/church_of_the_churchless/2019/03/my-definitive-answer-to-why-i-left-radha-soami-satsang-beas.html

As Sonya says, Gurinder Singh definitely lacks empathy and compassion. Naturally I'm not going to share any details of what Sonya described to me in the email she mentions in a comment above.

l'll simply say that if anyone other than a guru had done what Gurinder Singh did, everyone who observed it would think, "What a jerk!"

But RSSB devotees often consider that the guru works in mysterious ways, even when those ways are exactly what an inconsiderate person would do.

It doesn't surprise me to hear this, he does get told off by senior sevadors for some of the things he says. I've heard a young girl tell Gurinder that he's handsome in a q&a, he replied by asking her where she was when he was young back in College. Not the response you'd expect from God in human form.

Copy and pasting a post I just wrote over at the RSS forum, minus the uneccessary personal & subjective "visionary" elements, here's the final part of the post as I think this is an important thing for us all to consider in regards recent events with Gurinder Singh Dhillon:

What if Gurinder's cancer scare and subsequent chemotherapy altered his personality and mental state?

Wait, hold on a minute.

What information do we have to substantiate this hypothesis beyond mere nocturnal fantasies and imaginings?

Well.....first we hear reports from "Tara" on Brian's blog, whom I'm sure mentioned that after Gurinder's scare, things got pretty wild & materialistic almost overnight at the RSSB dera. I searched through her very, very long post at Brian's site early this morning (after the above ideas came to me), to locate the precise quotes, but I didn't find it or read the entire thing again. I'm pretty sure it's in there somewhere though!:

https://hinessight.blogs.com/church_of_the_churchless/2018/07/devastating-criticism-of-gurinder-singh-dhillon-by-a-rssb-insider.html

Further, we have official news outlets (I think?) reporting the "allegation" that it was imemdiately after his cancer scare & chemo that Gurinder made all these designs on "selling the gaddhi" or whatever to Shivinder.

Further, we also have science. I just googled and read some of these (maybe not the exact articles), and they seem to fully support what I am suggesting is actually a very real & almost common possibility?:

https://livebetterwith.com/blog/personality-changes-cancer-patients/

https://www.cancercare.org/questions/22

https://www.cancer.org/treatment/treatments-and-side-effects/physical-side-effects/changes-in-mood-or-thinking/chemo-brain.html

https://www.livestrong.org/we-can-help/finishing-treatment/cognitive-changes-after-cancer-treatment

Etc etc.

So we must wonder, maybe we haven't been dealing with the "real" or "original" Gurinder, since his cancer scare - but that we are instead dealing with, in a sense, a "changeling" in his place?

Hi Brian
Your experience de-bunking Yogiraj prior to RSSB could be seen as simply one more de-bunking event in a lifetime of them.

You are Brian the De-bunker! It's in your blood!

@Sonya
Ok so in my understanding here it seems you are a relatively 'recent' deconvert from Sant Mat, or from current RSSB at least, due to the 'rough' handling of your sensitive issues by GSD you were rather hoping he would be more compassionate and understanding of your issues you'd thought he'd have been. Is that it?

And I notice that Brian backs you up on this lack of empathy and compassion as portrayed by GSD towards your sensitive personal issues.

Do I assume from this that GSD was perhaps somewhat 'rough' and insensitive and lacking in empathy and compassion towards Brian's own personal and sensitive issues as well?

ilanovitch, no you may not assume that. I've never spoken with Gurinder Singh Dhillon about any "personal and sensitive" issues, just RSSB issues (book publishing related). He always was polite and businesslike in our communications. Which were quite a while ago.

However, Sonya did raise a personal issue that the RSSB guru acted non-compassionately toward. I shared Sonya's story with my wife, a retired psychotherapist, and she was astonished at the bad judgment used by the guru. He shouldn't be giving personal advice to anyone, my wife said.

@ilanovitch
GSD, used very poor judgement when he replied to my sincere and very serious question. We all have our own views on Sant Mat and RSSB and Gurinder, so I’ll clarify what mine are. GSD’s sometimes tough approach to people was also something that bothered me from time to time and yet I also identified with it because I used to be very tough on people that I felt were a threat or acting recklessly. However, over the years I’ve learned that is 99% of the time not the best approach. Something GSD himself has yet to learn.

Gurinder in my observation (and this basically just my opinion) has special abilities—he is able to size a person up instantly and exploit their strengths and weaknesses. Not unlinke many great charismatic leaders in history. I personally believe his powers of intuition are exceptionally strong. HOWEVER, (and this is part of what I’m learning not to do) when he looks into someone’s eyes he sees the greatest probability of the outcome based on that person’s current state of mind. This is one comment that I really wish Gurinder could read.

When he sees the probability he acts on that—he is actually just being reactive at that point not realizing that there’s still a smaller percentage of chance that the person could change their state of mind or at least have a more chance peaceful outcome if he focused on the alternative, positive possibilities. He has a belief system that is fatalistic believing that “karma” is etched in stone. With that belief system he gives up all creative power at that moment and then like a puppet he essential confirms the probability.

All he sees when he looks at someone is probability based on the current state of affairs. And he is very reactive to that. But probability isn’t deterministic. He and the rest of us need to own the power we have to be positive creators and positive contributors to a resolution.

Sometimes it takes a revolution. Sometimes it only takes a resolution.

He miscalculated. But that’s OK... we all do when we don’t own our creative power and simply follow along with a karmic-everything-that-will-happen-has-already-happened belief system.

As the Nexus article Tim referred to illustrates, every single possibility to every single outcome has been played out in multiple universes. So, you see... our view of the final outcome is usually determined by our personal bias, not by love or the belief that what we do at every moment in “time” can and does affect the final outcome.

Then again, nothing is every really final.

(I was initiated in 2006)

And this is why I need to stop posting long replies and comments from my phone—many typos. 🧐

Sonya,

Are u in the UK?

@Sonya
I tried to reply seems it got lost in the Interweb somewhere. Went something like this.

So from both yours and Brian's response it relates to a kind of psychoanalytic assessment of GSD's personality in which you and Brian (and his wife) have assumed from this analysis that someone portraying such cannot (or shouldn't be considered) GIHF. I asked if you are also a trained psychologist / psychoanalyst perhaps? Or why would it be inferred your issues to be first world issues?

I further enquired how close in a familiar setting have you been to GSD personally and whether you were raised in Indian or Western society / environment?

You have since advised you were initiated in 2006 (in India by GSD - or by proxy by representative)? and I have tried to glean if you now consider yourself De-converted from RSSB or Santmat as a result of the reaction by one who you considered enlightened and perhaps expecting more of a comforter for your personal life problems.

I'm not sure if gurus in general are prone to being sensitive to individuals personal issues or problems. It seems many western minds like to think we're kind of special and require special kind of treatment. I don't know if gurus or spiritual teachers have either the inclination or the "empathy" to try fix our psychological issues. Perhaps their frame of empathic activity is at a slightly different level of therapy, spiritual not psychological.

@G
I'm in the US. My in-laws are South African and my mother-in-law was born 4th generation in India. I don't think that makes her and Indian, though. (insert hmm emoji)

My husband likes to say he's an African America because he's a naturalized citizen. (insert rolling eyes emoji).

I don't know why I'm giving such a long response to your answer... no, not in the UK. I'm in America.

@ilanovitch

OK, let me settle this once and for all. I asked GSD a question about depression and suicide. The answer he gave literally almost drove me to suicide. So it was wickedly ironic. It is the most any human being has ever hurt me in my entire life and yes a large part of that is due to the fact that I put entirely too much weight on his opinion and his answer. If I hadn't trusted him as much as I did even at that point when I was having doubts, then his answer wouldn't have affected me so much.

I don't expect special treatment but when someone you have cared about more than anyone else in the world acts as if your life is unimportant, well that's just hard to take. And I guess I consider myself more of an ACIM student these days. I don't subscribe to RSSB dogma or gurus or get involved in any sort of hero worship anyone these days. I learned my lesson the hard way.

However, Sant Mat is different, it still offers many truths that I hold dear. I don't make the mistake of confusing Sant Mat with GSD or RSSB anymore.

My husband asked me if I would go back to the Dera with him this December because he still follows his guru. Normally I would and just not attend many of the meetings, but after what happened last year, I'll never go back.

So there it is.

@Sonya
I haven't fully read all your comments above, just the last few, so forgive me if I missed anything.

I have had many exchanges with GSD and he works in a certain way when he replies. Let me explain with a few examples.

I once asked him, "Can you explain about Sargun and Nirgun?"

An unusual question coming from me. He knows the type of questions I ask. I normally explain something then finish off with "I invite your comments" or "Please comment on this"

His immediate response was: "Are you trying to test me?"

I wasn't, as have no interest in testing him. So I replied, "No, I am just interested in the answer"

He then answered.

Another time someone from the audience shouted "Turn off his mic" when I was one the mic.

He said, "Then turn off my mic also"

My experience is: he says whatever comes to mind at the time. You deal with the consequence.

He is not trying to be "nice" in his response.

He is equally not trying to be "nasty"

He gives the response that comes to mind.

He blatantly contradicts. Hence so many here can't believe he says "I am not coming at your death"

I remember once he gave be a detailed reply stating that the guru cannot come because there is only the ONE so where is the guru going to come from and take the soul?

immediately after me someone asks "Can you please come at my death?"
he says "Yes, don't worry, I'll come"

a bit like the zen judge:

two people go to him and a third accompanies them. First person explain the situation and the judge listens and says "YOU ARE RIGHT"
Second person explain his viewpoint.
Judge : "YOU ARE ALSO RIGHT"
third person says, "They can't BOTH be right!"
Judge says "YES, YOU ARE RIGHT

Hi Osho,

I understand what you are saying and appreciate the sentiment.

Actually, I know exactly why he said what he said. He knew I was having doubts and close to leaving the path. He was harsh because he thought it would hurt me and that would somehow make me want him more. It’s like he was rejecting me first. And in his very flawed calculation, all he accomplished was kicking me out the door. In retrospect, it may have been what I needed. Because I needed to learn what real love really is.

Even the Bible (with all of its weird and wonderful writing) has a better understanding of love.

Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. It does not dishonor others, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres. Love never fails.

GSD has not yet learned how to use the power of words in the right way.

There’s a sort of brain-washing that insists the Guru has the right to act insanely.

I actually know of people who have committed suicide after a negative interaction with him. Can you see the sickness? He doesn’t care. That’s the bottom line. He just simply does not care about the people he hurts. That’s madness at its most extreme.

No it's not like that, what you think it is. He knows you better than you know yourself. So yes he pushed you, not because he's trying to woo you back but because he knows your mind and frail attachment to the teaching so he pushed you so you can go ahead and face yourself and your own doubts face on.

Pretty much the same as with Brian, he's not about to get concerned about Brian's or anyone's doubts and tribulations, you seriously think he's concerned about all these wayward fragile minds wailing poor me sorrows in the wilderness? I doubt it, he knows how vulnerable each fragile mind is and whether it takes 1 life or more there's enough time and stored karma in the antashkaran to go the distance, whatever the distance takes.

Sonya, can i please ask you a personal question? Have you been diagnosed with a mental illness? The only reason I ask you is because you mentioned words like depression and suicide. I think you need to seek medical help if you are mentally sick, also a suggestion that you should avoid these blogs because these psychologically, intellectually and more spiritually advanced (certainly more spiritually advanced that GSD as they are trying to prove) people will make you completely crazy! I am surprised your husband is still following rssb when you had a nightmare of an experience there, shocking!!!

Hi Sonya, could you reply when you get a spare minute please? I am really worried about you sister as you might have mental issues you are not aware of or trying to ignore but can get help!

Verify your Comment

Previewing your Comment

This is only a preview. Your comment has not yet been posted.

Working...
Your comment could not be posted. Error type:
Your comment has been posted. Post another comment

The letters and numbers you entered did not match the image. Please try again.

As a final step before posting your comment, enter the letters and numbers you see in the image below. This prevents automated programs from posting comments.

Having trouble reading this image? View an alternate.

Working...

Post a comment

Your Information

(Name is required. Email address will not be displayed with the comment.)

Welcome


  • Welcome to the Church of the Churchless. If this is your first visit, click on "About this site--start here" in the Categories section below.
  • HinesSight
    Visit my other weblog, HinesSight, for a broader view of what's happening in the world of your Church unpastor, his wife, and dog.
  • BrianHines.com
    Take a look at my web site, which contains information about a subject of great interest to me: me.
  • Twitter with me
    Join Twitter and follow my tweets about whatever.
  • I Hate Church of the Churchless
    Can't stand this blog? Believe the guy behind it is an idiot? Rant away on our anti-site.