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March 08, 2019

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from the article:
"Compare Gurinder's statement that the Radiant Form is a projection of the mind to Charan's, who said the Radiant Form is projected from the Shabd. That's a huge fundamental difference. The Shabd is onmipresent. How else could a Master know the time of a disciple's death and be present?

The physical Master is also aware of that. If he is not, then one cannot say he is a Master."


The writer is still stuck in dogma.
the belief: master is all knowing and comes at death.
the truth: this is a fairy tale. there is no "all-knowingness"
and no master comes at death

So GSD is telling you the truth that the previous gurus never stated.

the writer states: "If you read the original editions of Sant Mat books, examples were given that Great Master knew exactly when his Radiant Form had appeared to a disciple and what had taken place. He was even able to recount in exquisite detail exactly what the Radiant Form had said to the disciple."


you are still buying into the "marketing fairy tale"
so you believe the previous masters were perfect, but GSD is a fraud.

you are wrong.

GSD is being honest when he says
(1) I am NOT coming at your death
(2) there are no regions
(3) there is no kal, no dyaal, no sat purush, no lords of regions etc
(4) all there is, is the ONENESS. ALL else is duality and mind projection, including radiant forms

One person said to GSD "Great master says you should give a "duroon salaam" (wave from a distance) to any master who does not come a death.
GSD replied, "then do it - because I am not coming at death"

give credit, where credit is due. GSD is freeing you from dogma.
you believe the teachings so deeply that you think "shabd" is real.
"shabd" is a sant mat concept. hearing some noise that appears to pull you up is no confirmation of shabd

shabd is a belief, and like all beliefs, keeps you trapped in false teachings and dogma..

GSD doesnt claim to be a perfect master, just a man.

Charan Singh specifically and categorically denied being a master. read treasure beyond measure.
read his diary entry.

where does he claim to be "all knowing"?

he claims only to be a human and a sevadar. not humility - its the truth.

the writer states:
"I can now pursue an independent spiritual path."

Out of the frying pan and into the fire!

you will leave one guru and find another.

because you still feel there is a path to follow; a shabd; regions etc.

there are TWO types of gurus

(1) those who trap you in dogma and offer comfort
(most gurus are in this category)

(2) those who free you and dont let you fall into yet another trap.
buddha said "there is no external saviour - not even me"


LISTEN closely to this video. he is saying "you want certainty"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xggTJCCxFss

Dear Osho
Thank you for your comments. I appreciate your concern, you are entitled to your opinion and I appreciate what you are trying to point out but I like to make up my own mind. I have read all the books and researched all the religions, including Buddhism, I gather information and then make an informed choice to the best of my ability and according to personal experience. I have no wish to convince you, or anyone else of anything, you are welcome to form your own conclusions and act accordingly to the best of your ability, as I am.
Am not here to argue my case, merely to present information which may be of help to others facing the same dilemmas.
Thank you for taking the time to respond. I sincerely wish you well in your search for the truth.
You know, sometimes it's wise to just agree to disagree.
All best wishes
Mary

@Mary
You write:
" I have read all the books and researched all the religions, including Buddhism, I gather information and then make an informed choice to the best of my ability and according to personal experience. I have no wish to convince you, or anyone else of anything, you are welcome to form your own conclusions and act accordingly to the best of your ability, as I am."


Reading books and researching will not lead to truth.
because you will read and research with a BIAS called "I Know"
it's nothing personal - WE ALL DO IT.

Every conclusion you make is built upon what you already KNOW to be true.
But, what you KNOW, you don't really KNOW - you just think you know.

There were a hundred people trapped in a hotel room and a fire broke out. Among them was one child.
everyone tried to get out of the only door to the room and they all failed.

They tried to PULL and PUSH the door handle - the door would not open. They looked to see if it was locked.
They tried to TURN the handle both ways; nothing worked.


They tried EVERYTHING to the best of their ability - but failed.

The child then came and just simply walked through the unlocked door.

HOW did this amazing miracle happen? Here's how.
the child had "no previous knowledge"
the adults had LOTS of previous knowledge.

example: It's a door and doors open in a certain way. inwards or outwards.

THIS door was different - and that is why it would not open.

It was NOT locked - which is why the child just walked through - easy as pie.

This door had the handle on the SAME side as the HINGES. Very unusual.
so you can pull, push, turn the handle etc as much as you want.
the hinges were hidden so you could not see them.

the other side of the door was simply open.

All the child did was push on the other side of the door and walk through.

WHY was the child able to walk through? because he was not burdened with what "Osho" in the
video I posted calls "knowledgability" (a word he made up - as he makes up lots of words
and calls himself an INCORRECT MYSTIC)

I am also pretty sure you never even watched the video or understood it.

because your response was one of a person proud of their ability to "figure it out in their own way"

The same people who "trusted" GSD all those years now turn against him.

But he always said "How do you know I am not a conman?"

They were SURE he wasn't because he made that statement.

Now they are sure he IS a conman because he is involved in financial deals.

but the same person who was SURE before is SURE now!

but take him to be a man - as he claims. cut the legs of the pedestal as he says.

no all-knowingness - no Godman - no saviour.

He is rightly saying "no KAL, no DYAL, no regions, no SAT PURUSH, no goal - just the ONENESS"

but again you miss the message.

A seeker went to a master and said "How to find God?"
Master: easy, just look in mirror and ask "Who the fuck am I?"
the seeker said "WTF? you call yourself a master, using language like that?"
Master replies: "Not a master, I am a fucking good master, maybe the fucking best"

The seeker left - disgusted.

He goes to another master and the second master was very polite and refined. Looked like a master too.
Well dressed, with a turban and a long flowing white beard. The master says "You need to do service, for 20 years"
the man serves for 20 years and then asks the master "What next?
Master: now look in mirror and ask "Who the fuck am I?"

Seeker: Excuse me?
Master: you are excused
Seeker: no - I mean - How dare you swear.
Master: I am your master - I can swear if I choose
Seeker: I went to another master before and he had told me the same 20 years ago.
but I didn't like his swearing and didnt believe him.
Master: Well he was a true master and I am just his student
Seeker: so i have wasted 20 years of my life serving you?
Master: no - you HAD to do it because you wasn't ready to hear the obvious truth the other master told you;
you insisted on doing it YOUR WAY and you KNEW a master doesn't swear and you KNEW that seva was neccessary
and you KNEW that looking inn a mirror was not the answer.

MOral of the story

You don't know jack shit - but you think you know - but all that you know is just jack shit.

excuse my french - I am simply not as refined as the real Osho in the video

which for convenience is posted below
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xggTJCCxFss

and just to set the record straight - before you ask. Osho is not my guru - I don't have one.
and I am not searching - as there is nothing to find. And I don't care for opinions.
Opinions are a dozen a dime - they have no value
"I think ......." doesn't matter what you think.
truth remains truth regardless of what you and I think.
truth is a discovery - not a conclusion you come to.
and truth is discovered only when there is no longer a "YOU" seeking it.

sorry if I come over as arrogant or "not very nice" but don't worry - only your ego can get hurt

Osho a nice one.

Mary - thanks for sharing your experience, it's very much appreciated!

Osho - great post, really enjoyed reading that, wasn't expecting to comment today but just wanted to say that!

Marko - hope you're well!

@ Osho - what is Truth?

In response to the ongoing comments, I have no further time left to reply due to an extremely busy schedule and will not be reading future comments due to same. Even if I had the time at my disposal, quite honestly I would rather spend it stroking my cat and feeling the love.
Did anyone mention love?

@ Mary - hello. No one mentions love here.

It’s a motley crew of wannabes trying to be intellectual and some comments are quite amusing. No body has actually proved anything here.

I’ve asked Osho a question - let’s see his response or will he twist it around.

All the best

A little before I had returned from satang at Delhi. Listened to small talk and Q/A session by his Highness which is contested by many of us and at the same time defended by many of us.

What I have seen in this forum - Lots of stories alias personal observations. facts from authentic sources etc are tangentially thrown at the Target while much of it seems to be at variance with the reality on the ground and in satsang talks. It is still to strike the target so as to make all of us believe either against the sect or make all of us trust it.

So to say that the teachings in the present have changed is not convincing as Master in different meetings and satsangs may have stated the basic teachings differently. Why? Because even today He laid emphasis on practice-borne-trust and that you would find Him there (inside) upon sufficient progress and because when you are looking exactly opposite to where He is sitting (referring inside) you won't find Him. It does suggest lack of Trust and selfless efforts. Then he also states that even if He says a thing to be the best in taste you won't believe (me) till you yourself taste it. And all this stand very much similar to already known teachings since the beginning of the sect as words of mouth to most by even illiterate satsangis than we need to search them in books or not mark it as gospel truth until clarified by the Master. May be I don't know if He has talked differently at some point of time in abroad centres.

All I could make out of as a little serious thing in this blog is that of salvaging TV sets which had made Him loose his cool while He should have behaved saintly.

Such natural conduct or instances as of financial dealings may require discussion on this forum and any counter on this could even be supplemented from out of body experiences if some one had/ is having regularly due to this sect as that of Mr Spencer. We are into this forum just to help out each other lest we are duped by a mischievous cult or loose a precious thing unnecessarily or cast aspersions on a poor Master ( if He is so except for some misunderstandings/ misinformation)


In the

"Did anyone mention love?"

"No one mentions love here."

And breathing, nobody mentions breathing either!!

“However much we describe and explain love, when we fall in love we are ashamed of our words.”

“Love is the bridge between you and everything.”

“Explanation by the tongue makes most things clear, but love unexplained is clearer.”

“Reason is powerless in the expression of Love.”

“Goodbyes are only for those who love with their eyes. Because for those who love with heart and soul there is no such thing as separation.”

“However much I might try to expound or explain Love, when I come to Love itself, I am ashamed of my explanations… Love alone can explain the mysteries of love and lovers..”

"Close the language-door and open the love-window."

"“Let the lover be disgraceful, crazy, absentminded. Someone sober will worry about things going badly. Let the lover be. ”"

"“Is it really so that the one I love is everywhere?” "

And, finally:

"“There are lovers content with longing.
I’m not one of them.”

~ Rumi

And don't forget to breathe, either!

:)

Manjit da Bomboclot here hehe now you have my whole beats...
https://youtu.be/ul6wed6cRcs
https://youtu.be/YvghdZmqkCs

Has anyone ever read forty rules of love . I suggest every person here to read it .

@Osho

"He is rightly saying "no KAL, no DYAL, no regions, no SAT PURUSH, no goal - just the ONENESS"

This is in direct opposition to Sant Mat teachings and you know it. What do you think the 5 names signify then? And if it's not the rulers of the 5 great divisions of reality, why do you think that Satsangis are told this?

"GSD doesnt claim to be a perfect master, just a man."

You keep repeating this but it's meaningless. If I create false certifications and get the role of Professor somewhere, and then tell my students that I'm not really that knowledgeable, does that end the deception?

Every time GSD speaks, there are a glut of books on sale that very clearly state that the incumbent master is GIHF, and that such a being will always deny this fact -- posing only as a humble sevadar, while their soul really resides in the highest regions.

You are being disingenuous in the extreme.

There is a difference between having a teacher provide education in a practice that is extremely useful, healthy and a great source of happiness......
And idol worship based upon superstition.

No one needs to believe Gurinder is anything more than an educator, with his own private life and private interests, which are actually unrelated to what he is teaching.

Many will verify the truthfulness of the teachings, when we put them to use.

But to then convert that into an institutionalized form of idolatry is very very bad and wrong.

We should avoid that. Burn the books if all you get from them is superstition. But they do contain also teachings about the practice that are fabulous, and given in a most beautiful, inspiring essay way.

"We teach children in stories, so that as they grow into adults they leave behind the fable but remember the lessons."
Charan Singh

If the meditation works for you, go there. But no one should raise any teacher on a pedestal and all good teachers say so. It's distracting to the necessity of our practice and a poor substitute for it.

The human brain will never understand reality. It is a bag of jelly influenced by a single insult, by a half degree change in temperature, by praise or criticism, by a tummy ache or a delicious cake. It's useless for getting to Truth. It's fine to get you to the grocery store, to count, to work a job.

But with practice we have the means of finding peace, happiness, even companionship, within. And as it turns out that jelly brain of ours is wired for that practice and to take us to that place. And that becomes our divine and ultimate personal truth. Our subjective truth. That's the best we can do in seeking a permanent happiness. And that gives us strength and inspiration to get through this life in the most flexible, helpful and humane way possible.

If there is a perfect master they are within us. If following Baba Ji's teachings gets you their, then it is right to give thanks to your teacher.

But anything beyond that is harmful to you and a terrible waste of time. If Baba Ji is a part time jewel thief, what is there to discuss? How can we know what is done in the shadows? And if it turns out to by true, if the law is after him and he goes on the lamb, well, at least we got the good stuff while we could, the teachings.

Our happiness had nothing to do with what the worldly drama becomes. If he must do jail time we can send condolence letters and a fine eggless cake.

But if He wants to get out of jail he has the same tools he so excellently taught us. Tools we should be using all the time.

@ Spencer - be wary brother that you have not created the desire and bent the universe in serving you a fine eggless cake whilst admiring some bars which hold you.

One one should wish anyone jail unless they have committed a heinous crime which has been proven in a court of law.

You may want Truth but be careful it doesn’t drag you to that moment you get an eggless cake 😀

Hi Arjuna
Whatever it takes to destroy idolatry and superstition.
These always transform into bigotry and cruelty.
We are all brothers and sisters, and we all have the same loving father.

Find that, and leave off idol worship.
"So when you see standing in the holy place 'the abomination that causes desolation,' spoken of through the prophet Daniel—let the reader understand.”
Mt 24:15

Arjuna writes
"@ Osho - what is Truth?"

Hopefully you are not so naive as to expect an answer from me.
Truth is not a thing I can explain.
ists like asking someone, "what is love?"

If you have to be told, forget it.

You cannot be told.

The most important question cannot be answered. No answer will suffice.

Truth, like love, cannot be told.

If it is, then all you have are empty words.

When you discover truth, you will know it.

Story time.

A man was searching for God and truth. He read all the books but could not find it, not even in the dhammapada.

He went to a master and explained he was seeking truth and God.

The master asked where he had looked so far. The seeker piled all the books in front of the master. "In here"

"Ha" replied the master. "You will never find, because truth and god is not in books. "

"Then what shall I do!"

"Forget all about god and truth. Instead just seek true love. Once you find it, come back to me and I will take you straight to god. "

"The man went on his journey. The master never heard back from him.
After 6 months the master went looking for him.
He found him in a village, singing, dancing like a mad man.

He approached him. " did you find love"

"Yes. That's why I am dancing"

"But I asked you to cone back to me, you never came."

The man laughed. "No need. And you knew all along. The moment I found love, in the same moment I found god."

They both laughed.

@ Spencer - I understand all that - however I am trying to help is both that we must tread very carefully on what we think we know about this case.

That is all.

I don’t know and am proud to admit that.

Just don’t get to that stage where you get a fine cake delivered and a letter saying that people feel for - they usually don’t as it is only words (which won’t really mean anything).

You are a good man I sense that. Stay that way😀

@ Osho - hello.

I’m laughing too now 😀

@PJ
You wrote "You are being disingenuous in the extreme."

You are mistaken.

I am simply stating the facts.

I would say that, all the gurus before GSD were being disingenuous. With the notable exception of Charan Singh because he made his position clear.

Also I cannot comment on jagat Singh as I know nothing about him.

GSD is being honest. He is being upfront. He says "burn the books"

I agree that the books tell lies.

GSD says it plainly. He disagrees with the teachings written in the books.

So do I.

So, what will you follow?

The books or what your living master says?

If the answer is the books, then better become a Sikh and bow to the books.

GSD could easily continue with the book teachings. Much easier. It is harder to state the truth.

Everyone misunderstands because they have been conditioned by the books for many generations.

Charan Singh went to great lengths just so people don't remain deluded.

He printed his personal diary entry. He went even further.
He printed a photo of the actual writing in case anyone doubts.

He said "I am not what people think I am"

He made it clear he is a man.

Hi Arjuna
I Appreciative the necessity of an open mind.
But there is most certainly enough evidence over years of fraud by companies Gurinder founded, helped set up family members in principle positions, and retains significant ownership units in.
And the SEBI has made their judgment.
Guilty of fictitious and fraudulent activity. These companies have been ordered to repay the loans. So long as Gurinder is involved it is for him to take his own actions. We need have no concern there. History will play out as it should.


But if we should not falsely condemn, nor should we idolize, for either carries great harm to ourselves.

@ Spencer - it’s sounds like you are trying to persecute him - that’s how I read this.

I'm guessing that this satsangi still sees Charan Singh ( the guru who didn't work at a job for 40 years, but who was still somehow quite materially prosperous) as bona fide.

I don't trust these "I heard Gurinder say" quotes unless they're corroborated by at least a couple of other sources. So far, all of the "gotchas" about shocking things Gurinder allegedly said are strangely limited to individual claimants. And I jussie don't trust individual claimants.

Context and precision matters. For example, if Gurinder really said that the inner guru is just something conjured up by our brains, that would be a pretty radical departure from sant mat theology. But Charan many times said that dhyan (imagining the guru is before you) is nothing but a mental action. What then was Gurinder really taking about there? Well, I guess you had to be there.

As for Gurinder clearly being guilty of fraud, I see many of the allegations based on guilt by tangential association. We have a name for that in the states. McCarthyism.

PS: "Manifests" is a verb that can't stand alone grammatically, it needs to be followed by "itself" or another noun.

@spencer
good evening.

What next for Baba jee.
When ample proofs seem to be there of misdoings. You even have some idea reg it.

Actually you hint at persecution only but in a respectful manner. Hiwever people outside of RSSB or even inside of it do not take it as you see it or have absorbed it.

By your conclusions of the whole story a Ram Rahim -II may become a possibility.

Then What will be the difference between an Offender Guru (Ram Rahim) - proven by law under different pretexts and that of us will be even though you and I may ever believe in His divine potential. But say, minus we what will be a scenario for others for whom it will definitely strengthen the disconnect than letting these survive together.

Your knowledge of the Present Master doings, character etc both in the outside World and worlds inside makes you speak exact Truth but it is difficult for a logical and rational mind to accept. Only blind faith can help especially for those who are yet to reach upper stages.

Appreciate your threadbare explanations and divine rationale behind the actions and reactions as they appear. At least has made me raise my bar of meeting any unfavourable eventuality with more positivity.

regards.

Hi Meditator
Have blind faith in your practice, but only so much as to get you into meditation today and tomorrow.

Then with wakeful patience let the inner mechanisms unfold as your proof that this was a good use of your time.

No other outside proof will be there. You will have to find it within.

No outer events can provide the direct witness you may have of your own situation within yourself. Outside events are extremely poor evidence for anything.

So seek the inner evidence you can return to every day, seek the dark and the fog and little by little, the fog lifts, the light comes, the orchestra begins to play. And with this the company of your own perfect Master.

The true Master, we are told, beats the pot on the outside. Beats the pot. What better beating than this? Bravo!

But on the inside the Potter is all support.

This is how a cup is made, Meditator.

From a lump of clay. We are just clay. Let's be happy in the process. If Baba Ji were innocent, there would be no beating. And we would not work to find our wonderful comforter within.

So let's not resist the lesson.


@777
I presume you mean bi-polar?
Not bi-polair unless you are inventing a new word

From above:
It caused a fire and the Fire Brigade were called. Gurinder was running in and out trying to salvage his collection of large Panasonic TV sets he had inside. The fireman told him he couldn't go into the building and to please stop. Gurinder took no notice and carried on, retorting, "Just tell them I don't speak English!"

My friend personally knew the fireman involved so it wasn't just hearsay."

Sounds like a made up story.

For one thing, a Panasonic TV means nothing to him. He is not that poor.

It would be like you running in to collect a few pence. A large screen TV has no significant value to someone who deals in billions.

Secondly, if he was really bothered, he would send someone, delegate. He has plenty of people around him in Haynes.

Why would he personally go in to take the TV out, risking his life for something so insignificant in value.

Don't believe everything you hear.

Hi Osho
If you will read a little more of the above thread you will find the link and direct quote indicating that the order to repay was to both the Singh brothers and to the companies owned by Gurinder and his family(and run by Gurinder's side and sons) . Both were found guilty of engaging in factitious and fraudulent activity, both were ordered to repay and threatened with penalty.

@Mr Spencer. Good Morning Sir.

Thanks for your prompt acknowledgement and reply.

You state:
“So seek the inner evidence you can return to every day, seek the dark and the fog and little by little, the fog lifts, the light comes, the orchestra begins to play. And with this the company of your own perfect Master. “

It happens like this and for those who sit quietly, selflessly and perhaps without an iota of expectation naturally face the inevitable happenings inside but these are not borne out of a mechanical system of actions on the part of seeker for He needs to submit him/herself to the power which is inside and which we at RSSB have trusted it to be the Master sitting right above. Sometimes a pull gets exerted and it requires for us to just surrender and which may be immense but in such a case… (not going into its nitty gritty). I had some difficult experiences during meditation which therefore certainly require Trust to surrender to someone inside who at the moments you can not recognise till such a threshold level when things may become apparent and I get into a position to contest any misgivings about the path with conviction.
Till such time therefore we have no choice except to receive the bliss as it descends, feel happy about it but can not say for sure who it is to be attributed to or who is behind the bliss. That’s why some of us who claim not to be associated (yet to be acknowledged and accepted by the Guru) to the RSSB eternal Highway may also be receivers of the bliss but thay are attributing it to the ones who they are associated with now.

Actually I am in need of 100% out of this practice than a few percent less. I believe that He is very much there inside of us but we need the pull of some Internal Expert from inside to reach Him who has to be Perfect just like Their Highness Christ, Nanak , Kabir , Ravidass to whose holy feet I always bow in gratitude and reverence. All such Perfect Saints have endorsed this as gospel Truth and no ill or part substitute can replace the Perfectness required in a Guru for the genuine seekers of Truth and only Truth while all rest is nothing - a mirage going to end sooner than one expects it to be.

My bitter and critical evaluation of the fiasco with RSSB, may be deliberately done and controlled by the Master (He knows best), stems from this.

I wish to submit further and want to stretch the same a bit further:
Say if you were Spencer in place of Malvinder , a billionaire with Spencer and Shivinder as brothers. Rest of the conditions/ happenings remaining exactly same with the only difference that you had similar inner access but have to resort to an earthly brawl with all litigations etc with the Guru for justice.

And you are also on this forum as active as you have been. How would you conclude the whole situation to the fellow seekers of Truth who are like me and many others on this forum. How would you advise them about faith in inner travel when you may be using your sword at the same time , may be once again as further litigation, media statements etc to bring forth the Truth and justice to yourself and your family.

Because as the time unfolds many more may align with Malvinder and may be lesser with the Guru.

Regards.


Hi Meditator
If one individual can speak of spirituality and then break the law, it is not unspiritual for another to acknowledge this.

God's power within you is infinite and gives one the strength to say and do difficult things that are truthful. Your own Master may give you the guidance within to go places and do things that are costly, but they are the right things to do. What is the point of God if your association with God doesn't make you a more truthful, loving and giving person? All of that comes from having that wealth, that reservoir. It's there to be digested and then as he directs, used for good.

So when you see anyone acting to tell the truth you may safely assume that it is by some inner strength they do so whether they understand that or not.

And if you wish to grow closer to God, Truth and Love then seek the lord of your own soul who is within you. You already know this.

Your future does not rest upon the shaky behavior of a criminal but upon the all powerful God who is within. Just spend more time there.

@ Osho - I totally agree with you- fake news about master running in to get TV.

According to some he actually told people in the house to get before the lightening hit the 🏠 house.

😀

@ Spencer / thought of the day.

For a man who claims to mediate - you seem hell bent on persecuting the big man.

I will be avoiding your kind of meditation.

A few people who ain’t even on the path nor have they heard of paths like RSSB - are genuinely nice humans who don’t go after truth as you are doing.

Thought I’d say that!

Spence writes
"both the Singh brothers and to the companies owned by Gurinder and his family(and run by Gurinder's side and sons) . Both were found guilty of engaging in factitious and fraudulent activity, both were ordered to repay and threatened with penalty."

The investigation was into the Singh brothers, and can only make conclusions about them.

They cannot make orders to a company that is outside their jurisdiction.

The Singh brothers authorized the loans and they have been ordered to pay the money back.

Malvinder has made a statement accusing GSD. Its a statement, not a court verdict. Anyone can make a statement.

I am not RSSB follower as you know. However it appears you are making baseless accusations, not based on the facts. Probably because as you have said many times, GSD should be behind bars by your estimation, and with the blessing of the inner guru.

Who is apparently schizophrenic because it appears the inner master can be against the outer master, which would be a very strange state of affairs.

Hi Osho
You wrote
"The Singh brothers authorized the loans and they have been ordered to pay the money back."

I'm sorry Osho but this is incomplete.

Both the Singh brothers and the companies owned by the Dhillon family were found guilty of engaging in fictitious activity and fraud, and were conjointly ordered to repay under threat of penalty:

From the SEBI audit

" Similar modus operandi of executing the structured transactions was noticed between FHsL and the 3 borrower companies (Best, Fern and Modland) for all the above mentioned five quarters during April 01, 2016 to June 30, 2017."

https://www.sebi.gov.in/enforcement/orders/oct-2018/order-in-the-matter-of-fortis-healthcare-limited_40755.html

These are three Dhillon family owned and run shell companies. Their ownership is independent of the Singhs and was used precisely to mask the movement of money to their own RHC. And they are included in the companies found guilty of fraud and ordered to repay under penalty.

These three Gurinder family owned shell COMPANIES, with Gurinder's wife is the principle officer, would receive checks from Fortis and then, on the same day write checks to Religare Holding, owned by the Singhs and the Dhillon family conjointly.

"
The Dhillon family would eventually become Religare’s second-largest shareholder, after the Singhs, with money lent to them by the brothers, according to people familiar with the matter. Godhwani consulted with Dhillon regularly on Religare, as would the Singhs on Fortis, the people said."

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/features/2018-08-16/billionaires-and-the-guru-how-an-indian-family-lost-2-billion


"Prius Platinum, Ground Floor, D3, District Centre, Saket, New Delhi-110017' could pass off as a nondescript address. Until you notice a striking similarity: Company after company registering it as their official address in the RoC records. At least 16 at last count. Many of them have even declared the same email ID in the RoC records: [email protected]; and are also being audited by the same firm.

Prius Real Estate, Prius Commercial Projects, Best Healthcare, Modland Wears, Fern Healthcare, Addon Realty, Hillgrow Infrastructure, Bestest Developers, Platinum Infrastructure. Even the Singh family's holding companies, RHC Holding and Oscar Investments, have declared it as their address."

" Nearly Rs2,700 crore was routed to these Dhillon-RSSB functionaries companies between 2009 and 2012 through a layered and complex web of subsidiaries. Of that, Rs2,000 crore was invested in two firms--Prius Real Estate and Prius Commercial Projects."

"RoC records say Prius Commercial is 84 per cent owned by Dhillons wife Shabnam and 16 per cent by RSSB Delhi head Yuvraj Narain Gorwaney. Prius Real Estate is 50:50 owned by Dhillons elder son Gurpreet and RSSBs Rajveer Singh. Addon Realty, which got Rs100 crore from Fortis, is also run by RSSB's Yuvraj Narain Gorwaney, his wife Sangeeta Narain and another Satsangi and Singh brothers cousin Sharanbir Singh Sandhu. SGGD Projects is run by brothers Vaibhav and Rahul Wadhwa, both employees of RSSB at Beas. Rahul Wadhwa was also a former Fortis employee. Lowe Infra and Wellness is another realty firm run by Sharanbir Singh Sandhu and Rahul Wadhwa. Singhs now own a majority of this firm. Hillgrow is run by another senior RSSB functionary & Singhs cousin, Jagatbir Singh Sandhu, as its director and signatory."

https://m.businesstoday.in/story/the-baba-singh-brothers-and-the-squandered-rs-225000000000/1/281437.html

From the SEBI audit, the use of shell companies to siphon money from Fortis to RHC.

"From the above, it emerged that the loans given by FHsL to 3 borrower companies were for the sole purpose of making available funds to promoter and related entities. Though it was portrayed that the loans were given to Best, Fern and Modland which were apparently not connected to FHsL or its directors / promoters at the time of giving the loans, the ultimate beneficiaries of such loans were RHC Holding and other promoter related entities.
(12) Further, similar to the process followed in granting of short term loans and subsequent routing to promoter entities as mentioned above, the repayment of such short term loans was made by the promoter related entities by routing the funds
through multiple companies and the movement of funds had happened mostly on the same day or in a couple of days.
(13) It prima facie appears that the routing of loans from FHsL to RHC through unrelated entities apparently was done to circumvent the provisions of Clause 32 of the Listing Agreement and Regulation 53(f) of SEBI (Listing Obligations and Disclosure
Requirements) Regulations, 2015 as well as to misrepresent the transactions in the books of FHsL."

https://www.sebi.gov.in/enforcement/orders/oct-2018/order-in-the-matter-of-fortis-healthcare-limited_40755.html


"According to the financial statements of these companies reviewed by Mint, ₹430 crore was received by Best Healthcare from Fortis and Religare group while ₹207.15 crore was advanced to Dhillon’s sons Gurpreet and Gurkirat Singh Dhillon.

An additional ₹287 crore loan was extended to the Godhwani and Dhillon families out of the ₹496 crore received from Fortis and Religare by Fern Healthcare.

A sum of ₹223.15 crore was also advanced to the Dhillon family by Modland Wears, ₹152 crore by Adept Creations and ₹8 crore by Rosestar Marketing Pvt. Ltd (cross holding with Green Line)."

https://www.livemint.com/companies/news/fortis-fraud-may-exceed-rs-2-000-crore-says-sfio-1550522937932.html

@spence
You say
Best, fern and modland are Dhillon owned companies.

Where is this information from?

I just did a check on fern, and these are the directors.

Directors of Fern Healthcare Private Limited are Pramod Kumar Ahuja, Rajveer Singh, Shivinder Mohan Singh, Sanjit Bal, .

Best healthcare and modland also have the same four directors. The last named director was only appointed in 2019 (15 Jan)

So these are NOT Dhillon family owned companies - but you stated they are.

Prius is Dhillon family owner but there is no order against them.

So are you mistaken?

Or have I missed something?

These companies have been further implicated more recently in the current crimes division investigation

"New Delhi/Mumbai: The alleged funds diversion at Fortis Healthcare Ltd could add up to more than ₹2,000 crore, according to the trail of funds uncovered by the Serious Fraud Investigation Office (SFIO), a government official said.

The Securities and Exchange Board of India (Sebi), too, suspects that the total size of the Fortis fraud could be much higher than the ₹403 crore it originally estimated, a second person familiar with the development said, requesting anonymity.

Sebi has already passed an order against Fortis to recover ₹500 crore from the Singh brothers for funds diverted to the promoter and promoter-related entities in December.

“At the heart of the alleged fund diversion is Gurinder Singh Dhillon, head of Radha Soami Satsang Beas, and Sanjay Godhwani, a former associate of Malvinder and Shivinder Singh. Six promoter-related companies were used to effect the funds diversion,” the first person cited above said on condition of anonymity.

Some of these facts also emerged from the complaint filed by Malvinder Singh with the Economic Offences Wing in Delhi and findings by SFIO. These depict a dark picture of a series of transactions between RHC Holding Pvt. Ltd, the holding company promoted by brothers Malvinder and Shivinder Singh, wherein RHC extended loans worth ₹5,482 crore to Dhillon family members, their associates or entities controlled by them.

This is independent of the ₹1,006.3 crore allegedly provided by Fortis and Religare Enterprises Ltd, another company controlled by the Singh brothers, to the six promoter-related entities. The funds belonged to shareholders of Fortis and Religare, among others. The six companies are Best Healthcare Pvt. Ltd, Devera Developers Pvt. Ltd, Fern Healthcare Pvt. Ltd, Modland Wears Pvt. Ltd, Adept Creations Pvt. Ltd and Green Line Buildwell Pvt. Ltd.

This came to notice during an assessment, as Malvinder Singh claimed in his complaint, conducted after an audit found these companies under heavy debt. Malvinder Singh claimed his brother Shivinder connived with Dhillon to sell these firms to RHC, thus putting more strain on the holding company."

(Dhillon family ownership....)

" Malvinder Singh added that the companies were acquired without any legal due diligence, execution of agreements and any check on their businesses.

"The twist in the tale came when Dhillon sought to discharge himself from the said liabilities, asking the Singh brothers to sign a family settlement that would encompass no legal proceedings or criminality in any circumstance against him."

The above cited from...
https://www.livemint.com/companies/news/fortis-fraud-may-exceed-rs-2-000-crore-says-sfio-1550522937932.html

Hi Osho
As the SEBI audit indicates these companies, at the time, were independent of the Singh brothers and RHC, which is how they could take the loans without any apparent conflict of interest. This is how they could use them as shell companies.

But since then their directorships have changed hands. You can find for example, Shivinder 's name noted on some of the directorships. But that wasn't the case when the loans were made. The shell companies were used to launder funds to the Singhs and the Dhillons. But as their debt grew, and after the Singhs had been discharged from Fortis, they were were sold by Gurinder, under Shivinder' s prompting, hence his ownership....

"The six companies are Best Healthcare Pvt. Ltd, Devera Developers Pvt. Ltd, Fern Healthcare Pvt. Ltd, Modland Wears Pvt. Ltd, Adept Creations Pvt. Ltd and Green Line Buildwell Pvt. Ltd.

This came to notice during an assessment, as Malvinder Singh claimed in his complaint, conducted after an audit found these companies under heavy debt. Malvinder Singh claimed his brother Shivinder connived with Dhillon to sell these firms to RHC, thus putting more strain on the holding company."

https://www.livemint.com/companies/news/fortis-fraud-may-exceed-rs-2-000-crore-says-sfio-1550522937932.html

It's amusing to see the lengths defenders of the RSSB guru go to continue burying their head in the sand and avoid seeing obvious evidence of the financial fraud committed by what arguably could be called the Gurinder Singh Dhillon "crime family."

The argument that Dhillon and his family/associates couldn't have committed financial fraud because their names aren't currently listed as directors or owners of the SEBI-named shell companies that illegally siphoned money from Fortis is like a defense attorney making this argument before a judge:

"Your honor, my client is innocent notwithstanding his fingerprints on the safe and DNA evidence found on the bedroom carpet. He could not have committed this crime because yesterday members of my defense team returned to the bedroom and took this video. My client is nowhere in the video. He is not seen in the bedroom. Therefore he could not have committed the robbery six months ago."

Osho, you will notice if you review the current directorship information on line that RSSBs Rajveer Singh remains one of the directors of all three companies, and that in the last three months Shivender has become a director as well at Fern and Modland Wears. This supports Movinder's claim that Shivender has now stepped in to assume the liability of these shell companies, and is in the process of doing so.

While the current owners have changed hands the guilty judgment was for the fictitious and fraudulent behavior at the time under Gurinder family control.

Therefore, if Shivinder is going to protect Gurinder from liability by assuming ownership of the companies, the only way to pursue redress of grievance will be criminal prosecution of the recipients of the loans. And that all goes back to Dhillon family and friends.

Movinder's claim has evidential support in Shivender 's new directorships of these fraudulent shell companies.

But what would have been a penalty slap on the wrist by SEBI has become inflated by Baba Ji's decision to escape liability, into what is now a criminal investigation into the recipients of the loans... The Dhillon-RSSB family.

"The longest serving director currently on board is Shivinder Mohan Singh who was appointed on 24 September, 2018. Shivinder Mohan Singh has been on the board for 5 months."
https://www.tofler.in/modland-wears-private-limited/company/U70200DL1991PTC044907


Osho said: "GSD says it plainly. He disagrees with the teachings written in the books."

Based on the testimony here that has no bearing on anything since the whole point is that GSD does not appear to be qualified to judge those teachings.

I would also dispute that he disagrees or agrees. He appears to take what ever stance is politically correct, depending on the audience.

@joe

Gurinder is as qualified as he always was. Or as unqualified.

He takes the road less travelled. His life would be easier if he agreed with the teachings.

@Osho I agree with you, that story doesn't ring true.

But I do believe what you are reporting. You see the farce this makes of RSSB practise? I was taught that the whole point of meditating is to go within, traverse regions, and make contact with the Inner Master. This is not a metaphorical journey.

If we accept GSDs new teachings, then there is no point meditating or attending Satsang. It sounds like he wants to try to exculpate himself karmically from this grand deception, but hasn't got to the point where he just comes and says it clearly.

Why he is still accepting initiates? Why are they being told to meditate on the names of inner rulers? I don't know if you're initiated, but this is not a metaphor or symbolic journey we are exhorted to undertake.

Osho said: Gurinder is as qualified as he always was. Or as unqualified.

He takes the road less travelled. His life would be easier if he agreed with the teachings.

That's why he is unreliable and so is his so-called teachings. The whole point is that if there is not any truth to the Sant Mat teachings, then all his predecessors are invalid, as is his position at the top of the hierarchy, His only point of integrity would therefore be to say it is a lie and unwind the whole thing.

Alternatively, if he is teaching from a non-realized point of view, he needs to come out and say, "I don't know." I say non-realized because believe it or not there are people who have had realizations that are in line with some Sant Mat teachings, tough not necessarily as commonly interpreted by those who have not and have only read books, attended satsangs,and had no realization from their meditations.

@Joe great post -- my sentiments exactly.

Interesting that you say this:

"I say non-realized because believe it or not there are people who have had realizations that are in line with some Sant Mat teachings"

In one of Jurgen Ziewe's books he describes his highest reach inwardly, and it's a place that sounds like the castle at the top of Trikuti. Where doors lead out to other heavens, but not upwards. His guide urges him higher, and he experiences a pure spirit encounter, with the sound (Shabd?) of OM.

So my theory is that these types of experiences have been put together from different people over centuries, perhaps millennia. And that is why Sant Mat's inner journey rings true. It might be.

I don't want to throw the baby out with the bathwater, or deter people from meditating. The 5 names do seem to work for me.

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