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February 23, 2019

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Ditto Brian! Ram rahim was special to his followers, as was Asaram. To them, these guys were their saviors. But they fell, hard. I still don't understand why RSSBers think that only their path is the true one, and that GSD is infallible .

Guridern dhillon is a fake personality, he has not reached to guru level in his inner journey, how he can recall guru,

Agreed. Really liked the part about personal identities and social structures... how they’ built on certain belief systems. That’s something I think about a lot. It’s like we’re all sort of brainwashed in certain areas of our life no matter how insignificant. It’s exhausting to keep asking why all the time. But with regards to RSSB “dogma” here’s a “sort of” related and incredibly fascinating article on how different religions, practices and beliefs actually affect the brain. These different belief systems change the way your brain works and active different areas of the brain while deactivating (or lessening the activity of other parts.

https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/amp/322539

Very recently I asked baba at Haynes park, the question of stories.
The story of sat purush granting kal his wish after kal stands on one leg in worship of sat purush for a number of yugas. Not sure how many.

Doesn't matter anyway as its a fictional story. He openly stated it was a made up story and that in fact there is no kal.

I said, "then is also no dayal either"
He agreed.

No kal, no dayal, no standing on one leg, no sending of souls down here.
No 10% who refused to go.

The whole thing is a story to explain why you are here and why the guru comes to save you.

However its a story. But the gurus don't normally state its a story. Not good for the marketing.

Brian
Why should RSSB followers follow your advice and adjust spiritual story as per your advice? Who are you to advise RSSB followers? You had been sacked from speakership by RSSB long ago.
You have no connection with RSSB
at all.
RSSB followers love their Beloved Master.They have been bestowed with treasure of Naam by their Beloved Master who has been sent by Lord with the treasure of Naam to take His souls back.So,keep in mind that those designated souls will go on loving their Master more and more and will enjoy bliss of Naam.Such souls will go on adding to RSSB followers every day and every moment.You have forgotten the truth that 'Worship of word pleases the Father,no other worship pleases the Father.'
A Saint is to be recognized by the treasure of naam He besows and only by the true seekers and true practisers and not by the lazy and unloving persons whom power of naam can never connect and such persons would naturally say that their is no naam,no true master and may say ,there is no God,no Sachkhand,no Satpurysh.They are happy with their life.
So enjoy your life .Write political stories or whatever is your hobby. Your advices shall never be heard by RSSB true followers.

Correction of typing error in comment posted by me;-
2nd para - A saint is recognised by the true seekers to whom He bestows treasure of Naam-------

Compare the thinking:
"My Guru IS God incarnate".
"He HAS taken on my karma".
"He CAN do anything as he is omnipotent".
Are these statements examples of checked and verified truth?
Or are they examples of self-centred, emotional and mental support-structures that confirm a previously held, cherished belief and an egocentric investment in being 'right'?

Compare that with these statements:
“Dhillon HAS engaged in massive financial fraud."
"The guru HAS made death threats against his cousin." Etc., etc.

Are these statements examples of checked and verified truth?
Or are they ALSO examples of self-centred, emotional and mental crutches that confirm a previously held, cherished belief and an egocentric investment in being 'right'?

People often swap one set of delusional thinking for another. In every case, the unchanged and constant mindset remains 'I am right" and "I know".
. . . . . . .

"People are attached to their opnions
not because they are accurate,
but because they are theirs."
-- St. Anthony.

@Dharam Brian is simply stating the facts, he is not asking anyone to follow him. Don't be a blind follower.

But he isn't "stating facts". And that you and he believe he is, merely shows you do not understand yet the distinction between beliefs and facts.

Chris, please point out which things I've stated that aren't facts. If you can't do this, you're the one who is mistaking beliefs for facts, since you appear to wrongly believe that facts aren't facts. For example, every criticism I made of Gurinder Singh Dhillon can be backed up by facts. Some people don't like those facts, but facts aren't a popularity contest, they're the truth about reality.

Credible accusations have been made against the guru. As I said in this post, "allegedly" the guru is guilty of them. But that's the case in every criminal proceeding. The accusation is a fact, as is the defendant's response to the accusation. However, so far Gurinder Singh Dhillon hasn't provided any response to Malivinder's complaint against him, so there aren't any facts to counter the complaint -- which makes it more believable until proven false.

And as I've noted in a previous post, independent reports from a RSSB insider support the accusations of financial fraud by the guru. So that makes the criminal complaint against Gurinder Singh more likely to be true.

@Chris I am amused that you can't see the facts? Please go through the complaint document in detail. Also go through the book written by Sheena. What more facts would one need?

Personally I have been on the path since childhood, and did sewa for 11 long years without fail. But something inside me was never aligned with what happened at the Dera. Infact I met the most genuine people outside of the community. I see my family and feel ashamed as to how they are brainwashed. They are all programmed that this world is bad/negative, we have to get out, all these relationships are meaningless. This mindset is very bad. You will never be happy in life with this mindset. This is what is taught in the meetings.

Now let's say even if all this is true, then why is there a need for the head to get entangled in all this mess? why? why? why? Now if someone says it's because of karmas then it's BULLSHIT.

When I read about Baba Faqir Chand, my eyes opened and I was so happy after that. He clearly states that no Guru is knowing, no Guru knows anything about their disciples internally. No guru comes at the time of death, no Guru can take anyone's karmas. But we are taught otherwise when we read the books at RSSB. That is why there are so many revisions to Sant Mat teachings over a period of time as the sangat is getting modern/scientific. But if that's the case then what happened to previous teachings. My family still believes that someone will come at the time of death and it makes them feel relaxed.

I don't understand why do you have to think about death now? Just be a good human being and enjoy life. Cherish this life, make this earth a better place, value relationships and when death comes deal with it then. Why bother now and make your life hell here?

Also why do we need someone to follow for spirituality? Do we follow our school teachers like Gods and have blind faith? Respect them, admire them, love them but do not be blind, never.

Brian is very cunning. Clever with words. Looks for anything and everything that he can use that suits his confirmation bias. Also has an attitude of self justification and feels that he is bringing truth and justice to the world, to the simple, stupid people who believe in gurus. He lives a very comfortable lifestyle and does not seem to have compassion for the suffering of others.

All is suffering.

"The interesting thing about skeptics, atheists, is that we're always looking for proof, certainty. The question is, "what on earth would we do if we found it?" There are times when I experience a total loss of faith. Days, months, when I don't know what I believe in: God, or the devil, Santa Claus, or Tinker Bell. But, I'm just a man. I'm a weak man. I have no power. Yet, there's something that keeps digging and scraping away, inside me. Feel's like God's fingernail. And finally I can take no more of the pain, and I get shoved out from the darkness, back into the light."

The Rite (2011 movie)

Jen, you're quite judgmental. Do you really think I don't understand that life is filled with suffering? If so, you don't know me. I've suffered a lot in my life. So have my loved ones. So please, stop with this crap about my "very comfortable lifestyle." I struggle, as does everybody. You have no right to say I have no compassion for others. I have a lot of compassion, and work hard here in Salem, Oregon to improve conditions in our town, and in our neighborhood.

If you think I'm not telling the truth about something, then describe specifically what I'm wrong about. If you can't do this, stop with the criticism about me being "clever with words." I get this from conservatives on the Salem City Council who claim my politically oriented blog posts on Salem Political Snark are false. But they never can tell me what is untrue about them.

If I make a factual mistake, I'm eager to correct it. Can the same be said of the RSSB guru, Gurinder Singh Dhillon? Have you ever heard him admit to wrongdoing, even though it is clear that he has engaged in fraudulent financial dealings? I'm willing to admit I'm wrong when this is the case. In that sense, I'm more spiritual than the guru. More humble also, since I don't talk about how powerful I am, and about how a critic could be killed -- which Gurinder Singh has done.

Here's a link to a blog post I wrote recently on my HInesSight blog about youth mental health. Does this sound like someone who lacks compassion?

https://hinessight.blogs.com/hinessight/2019/02/youth-mental-health-focus-of-emotional-city-club-program.html

Brian, I agree that I am being judgmental. I know that what I see in others is also a part of me. Its the judgmental attitude toward Gurinder that triggers me and how people seem to think that Brian is some kind of teacher about truth and I think that we have to wake up to the fact that we are all seeking our own personal truth and we won't make progress by playing the blame game.

The problem is that all we hear about on this blog is one-sided hearsay and very negative. Such as you say: "In that sense, I'm more spiritual than the guru. More humble also, since I don't talk about how powerful I am, and about how a critic could be killed -- which Gurinder Singh has done."

What the! Where did you hear about this. Where is the proof that he said these words. Some people who are disillusioned and angry about Sant Mat will probably make up this sort of gossip.

About your story of when you were young, I wonder if any human on this planet has not experienced trauma and bullying during childhood. I have three sons who have experienced such in their teenage years and thankfully they are still kind and generous beings.

So, I will leave y'all to your judgments. I send love and compassion to Gurinder... he's just as imperfect as we are but probably doing the best he can in the role he has to play. He is only human like the rest of us.

I find this most fascinating.
Brian has inadvertently admitted and confirmed that he cannot distinguish between a.) an as yet uncorroboated allegation from an impartial and implicated participant and b.) a verified and irrefutable fact.

AND yet he believes he knows truth and is spreading it.

Can any-one else see the disconnect from reality?

I think that it is good to uncover the truth about RSSB.
This is a side where we can discuss.
I felt often very lonely in my doubds and here is a place to talk,(write) etc..
Also radhasoami side is very helpfull.
Ofcourse Jen, I too feel for babaji who is a human,he has his difficulties like maharaji have had.

It is healthy to look at all this!

Osho
You wrote:

'I said, "then is also no dayal either"
He agreed.

No kal, no dayal, no standing on one leg, no sending of souls down here.
No 10% who refused to go.

The whole thing is a story to explain why you are here and why the guru comes to save you.

However its a story. But the gurus don't normally state its a story. Not good for the marketing.'

To say the inner regions exist is can only be a matter of faith, followed by conviction, followed by practice. Then you experience those things. And they are no longer a matter of question, conjecture or imagination. They are a deeper reality that underpins everything you see and hear around and within you.

To say there isn't can only be a matter of ignorance.

Because we don't know the whole story.

The point of meditation is to awaken inner and outer windows that allow us to see and understand more, and to find a pure source of love and peace within that helps us build an atmosphere of peace here in this world. So that we can live honorably, helpfully, happily.

That isn't constrained to any religion. It's a practice. And it comes with results that reflect the adequacy or the mastery of that practice. Deep within many religions can be found this practice.

It hardly matters at all what anyone says, or what we think they say.

What matters is the practice and our own progress.

That's all that matters.

To the degree that Gurindar, Maharaji, Sawan, Rajinadar, Yuketswar, Jesus, Mohammad, or the golden unicorn inspires us to this practice, teaches us about this practice, and provides useful inspiration and guidelines, which, in our efforts, we verify, we actually uncover this more real and sustainable, repeatable truth within, which helps us live a more peaceful and happy life, then that is the verification.

And nothing reported in any newspaper can take away from those truths, because we discover them for ourselves.

Your conjecture does not hold up under practice and experience.

To suggest there are no such truths, regions, places within is laughable.

Please find those first, then you may theorize about what they actually are.

Master your own access and then tell us what you think that really is.

Otherwise, it is conjecture about things you have not experienced.

And if you have, then like a good scientist, please commit to your experience and findings.


People have been pursuing progress in Spirit, in Love, in Happiness and Peace, in Faith, in Conviction, in Worship, in Spirit and living the joy that can come from these, for millennia.

But it is practice that yields their truth. And for that we must start with Faith, followed by Conviction. Otherwise, half - hearted practice yields very little.

Teachings bear out under practice.

Conjecture isn't enough, speculation isn't enough to motivate or de-motivate anyone.

Practice, and then please share what you found. But do not presume that what you found is what others have found. They may not have gone as far as you. They may have gone further.

But what you honestly report is worthy of respect as your legitimate experience.

But not a picture of anyone else's.

Just took a look at the David Lane's review of Ken Wilbur's book.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HnEQ81ZD9es&feature=youtu.be

To try to depict anyone who believes differently than you in broad psychological terms is fraught with error. Because the religious experience, as well as the experience of Atheism, and any other experience of this reality, in any form, is far more than any one individual's motivations.

Here is an example of such blinkered thinking from the video:

"On the surface it is a silly religious game we play since nobody knows if there really is a thing as soul liberation, much less a rightful choice that insures such..."

Practice will help confirm more is there. That's what meditation does. This is what prayer does.

And that is why people undergo the efforts of spirituality, to experience the presence of God, of their Teacher, within themselves. To find that purity within. This is why some people engage in spiritual practice. Not sermons. Not lectures. Practice.

To find out for themselves just what is inside them. And if they have experienced something wonderful and beyond explanation, to deepen that, to grow closer to that. That is the lifetime practice, the Path that moves forward, step by step, in devotion, in practice.

For some it isn't about Pascal's wager as to what is further down the line. It is about finding out now more about what is within oneself. That reality doesn't require guesswork. It requires faith, conviction and practice. It is such single-minded practice alone that yields results.

Those who have had spiritual experience aren't waiting to answer such questions. The question was answered without their choice. Now they are simply trying to grow closer to that inescapable reality they have already experienced, and which informs them occasionally consciously, and often unconsciously. It's a part of them.


Here's another one from the video that demonstrates a very blinkered view of religious belief: "Religion is fueled by our self-perceived lack..."

But the opposite is quite often the case: Spiritual practice is fueled by the witness of something unspeakably incredible within us...that we had no control over, that we have not created or achieved. It is already there. It is beyond measure. But we do not always have access to that. Hence practice. If Jesus can purify me, then that can only be through intimacy with Jesus, deep with me! Purity must be deep within me. If my soul can be cleaned, then my soul itself is pure. St. Paul wrote all about this. The video skips over it altogether

"We live in a world of our own delusions and attempt to escape them by building even more fantastic ones..."

Perhaps. But it is equally true that we attempt to see more clearly without bias through single-minded devotion to something that is beyond our limited thinking and biases: a wordless inner word that helps us make peace with this world by uncovering our own connection to it from a deeper place that is already within each of us.

Worship is just a means to focus our mind and our heart. And when our mind and our heart are singular, focused on something wonderful, we uncover so many truths we did not understand before. Those are literally handed to us then. Both our mind and our heart are fed from a purity of understanding and peace. That's inner spiritual development.

And until David and others can understand that these children are practicing on the playground with symbols something very real, and are in fact preparing in their play for real things, playing with these toys now, then they have missed a greater truth. Because these toys are models. It's appropriate for children to play with them, gain understanding, and leave them for better models as they grow, until they are ready, within, to handle a much larger truth.

Short version. You must have spiritual experience in order to comment upon it. All else is Pascal's wager, and you can argue that either way, from a distance.


Spencer
Perhaps you would care to tell us exactly what spiritual experience means to you.
You obviously claim to have one, yet you no longer believe in the guru you previously believed in.
How do you know it’s not an illusion?

@spencer

Gsd said in public satsang that it’s a story. So you are experiencing something your own guru is saying is not real.
Faqir Chandler said the same. All visions are a projection of your own mind.
I am not denying that people have inner experiences, I have plenty of my own.
I just don’t consider an inner vision to be truth.
The only final truth is oneness - the end of duality. Everything in form including your visions is duality and maya. Comes and goes. Creation of the mind. Unreal exactly like a dream.
Sant mat teachings say that all inner experiences are the grace of the master.
However you clearly denounce your master so how would you logically be the recipient of his grace.
The minimum requirement would be faith and devotion to the outer guru.
If the outer guru is fake, so is the inner.
Or will you wait until your inner guru is dishonest?
What exactly is the inner guru if not connected to the outer guru?

@Spencer
You seem to have your own version of the Sant mat teachings. You clearly don’t follow the sant mat teachings. What you follow is your own mix of sant mat and Christianity.
Even when gsd makes a statement about something, you choose to pretend he never made it and continue to believe what you want to believe.
Do you have and objective proof that your inner visions are true?
Can you for instance project your astral body to some place and verify that what you saw inside was actually correct?

Inner visions are made up. You can believe whatever you want about them,
You might have an inner vision that you are the next Christ and will then go about proclaiming this as some people have and are doing.


Have you ever heard him admit to wrongdoing, even though it is clear that he has engaged in fraudulent financial dealings? ... More humble also, since I don't talk about how powerful I am, and about how a critic could be killed -- which Gurinder Singh has done.

"Clear to me he engaged in fraudulent..." - Really? Do
you have legal training? Did you study sources other
than tabloids, did you consult an atty for expert opinion
on your armchair commentary of the criminal complaint?
Did you examine the roles of others in GSD's orbit? Weigh
the exculpatory evidence?

"I'm more humble" - I don't recall GSD asserting how
"powerful" he was... ever. Mystics do talk of the power of
spirit (i.e. "consciousness"); they don't however personalize
it the way you suggested. At least not that I'm aware of.
Perhaps you could cite sources.

"About how a critic could be killed" - Where did GSD say
that? If your factual basis is the allegation that GSD's atty
sent the complainant Malvinder a taped death thread,
your "fact" does not rise to the level of "proof". That's been
mentioned several times.

May I plead that only those satsangis who well fit into this hymn of Guru Granth Sahib - "Naam khumari Nanaka Chadhi rahe din Raat"- should respond for RSSB against a fair volume of taints spread around by now. It only adds to confusion if someone merely counters on the basis of his love and regard for the Master and RSSB. That love and regard each one of us may have even now but it has been clouded by some very particular fishy acts and mysterious attitudes / words /etc.

It was this that each of us was supposed to have achieved or are to achieve for this path was trusted by most of us akin to that of Nanak, Kabir and all perfect Saints. It implied that some of us must have reached this state of eternal bliss after consistent efforts in meditation and sewa while doing same without the objective of seeing or listening inside and in consequence, a few visions and sounds may have appeared but from the testimonies of many who disclosed in this blog series I may conclude these have no lasting effects on them so as to be called some bliss. They were almost same persons internally and have not raised their consciousness.

If any of us or some among satsangis ever or now have achieved such a bliss or has revealed the Master inside he only should defend this materialism kind of thing being taken care of by Saints at some level quite actively or passively without caring about the means and ends. Mere mental acrobatics of faith and love for the Path by some extremely devoted followers/Meditators shall not bring legitimacy to such misplaced acts by the Ones who are in the Guru ghar or even Guru himself.

It is therefore prayed that any of us who has been thorough on the inner path and well versed with it and is in a state of extreme bliss always should help us out. Because the post is confidential and does not reveal identity.

The problem, Osho, is white middle aged men trying to use an old Victorian era filter of "reason" that views all other cultures as ignorant and inferior.

It was old and out of date thirty years ago , and remains completely ethnocentric. And sadly, the people promoting it... White middle aged and older men, and the wanna bee white middle aged men, the white male identified people who attempt to adopt to this ephemeral and insubstantial viee of superiority have no idea of their ethnocentricism and its racial and yes, sexist undertones.

Of course white western male-dominated society is enlightened, more liberal, grounded in truth, right?

Pure ignorance.

@Spence Tepper
To the degree that Gurindar, Maharaji, Sawan, Rajinadar, Yuketswar, Jesus, Mohammad, or the golden unicorn inspires us to this practice, teaches us about this practice, and provides useful inspiration and guidelines, which, in our efforts, we verify, we actually uncover this more real and sustainable, repeatable truth within, which helps us live a more peaceful and happy life, then that is the verification.
And nothing reported in any newspaper can take away from those truths, because we discover them for ourselves.

You seem to imply that Masters are seemingly perfect adepts of inner path and we must follow them with trust to seek inner truth. And for that we must have sustained full hearted efforts.

As you next say,
Those who have had spiritual experience aren't waiting to answer such questions. The question was answered without their choice. Now they are simply trying to grow closer to that inescapable reality they have already experienced, and which informs them occasionally consciously, and often unconsciously. It's a part of them.

I wish you had sufficient inner experiences to qualify in that slot of achievers in RSSB who have raised their conscious adequately to be in a state of eternal bliss and therefore I may request you to solve this riddle discussed from different angles on this blog series about RSSB and its Gurus which need be unequivocal.
1. That the path has no infirmities and is recommended for others with an assurance on results now or later, this life or next lives.
2. That Guru is a Perfect one despite whatever may have been done or said by him.
3. The Guru who initiated you was as much perfect as is the present one.

Regards

Dear Meditator,
There are many sorts of meditations and experiences.
I was on the Path for over 50 years..
Sometimes there was lots of bliss..
Sometimes there was darkness sometimes lightness..
It depends on many things.
What we go trough in meditation is´ ours´.
Not Masterś as we always say it is His grace this and that..
But was/is it also´ his grace´when we are sad and many difficult things happen??
Besides that it is our circumstances but also the ´sort of meditation we do.
Are we just inspired trough master or satsang?
Or were we sleepy?
Or sad?
Soo...lots of meditions we go trough right?


@S*
There are many sorts of meditations and experiences.
Sometimes there was darkness sometimes lightness..

I pleaded with Spence Tepper:
I wish you had sufficient inner experiences to qualify in that slot of achievers in RSSB who have raised their conscious adequately to be in a state of eternal bliss and therefore I may request you to solve this riddle discussed from different angles on this blog series about RSSB and its Gurus which need be unequivocal.

Mean someone who is fortunate enough to have achieved such a state of higher consciousness/extreme bliss as also which may have continued until now due to this path only qualifies to defend RSSB insinuations. Perhaps most of us may not qualify since we had to face wall (darkness initially) always against which we forced ourselves and results have not matched the prolonged efforts. And therefore at least I am unable to comment on either side as I am in the middle - have been revealed with limited vision and sound systems which perhaps have continued but are not sufficient enough to be called bliss but still supernatural.

I wish who has gone much much beyond to,,,

Hi Meditator:

I understand you system of belief. Maharaji is perfect, and therefore so is Gurindar. That's the inner experience. It is a beautiful sentiment. And it is only that kind of perfect love that yields the great inner gifts.

But I'm actually doing the job they have asked of me.

There is no escape from personal responsibility to acknowledge truth in any form.

As for fault, that's a matter of time. Why the fraudulent loans to Subnam?

Why the sale of the hospital? Etc., etc...

We don't really know any of these answers, Meditator.

As for inner experience, as you can see, it isn't transferable.

If it were I could state clearly that the inner perfection and the outer fall are both entirely real, entirely as planned and agreed upon long, long ago, and you and others would understand the veracity of that claim.

We must always make up our own mind. No one can do that for us.
At best a true Saint helps us find that strength within.

And the courts and boards must do their part. It is their duty.

They serve the Lord doing so.

The question is whether your standard should change.

Yes, Meditator, God is testing you. He/She wants to be sure that your standard of right and wrong doesn't bend with the wind. When anyone is harming others, ANYONE, it is your duty to say so.

This kind of courage, all True Saints love.

THE GURU'S FAMILY and the Guru.

While on a trip to Europe, Charan Singh oversaw the smuggling of a large number of luxury items purchased by members of his Indian entourage, and perhaps by Charan himself. The testimony of satsangis who were party to the deliberate effort to move these items through Indian Customs shows beyond doubt that the smuggling almost certainly did occur. However, the reasons for why it happened are varied and open to speculation.

Some of the reasons put forward by group members of RS Studies for the smuggling are that 1) It wasn't that big a deal, 2) Indian Custom duties are unreasonably high and unfair to Indian citizens 3) Charan was apparently uncomfortable with the smuggling, and it's not entirely clear what part he had in organizing the smuggling operation, and therefore he bears little or no responsibility for it.

The recent news about Baba Gurinder Singh's conflict of interest with family members over money has led me to consider another reason for why Charan Singh Maharaji OK'ed the smuggling operation. I think it's quite possible that Charan felt compromised by the considerable financial support of his family by other family members, and for that reason felt unable to deny their wishes to illegally circumvent Indian Customs.

I think that could well be the key reason why Charan didn't say no to his family's desire to smuggle goods. He felt he couldn't, because he felt he owed them to go along with the scheme. Charan was no doubt acutely aware that he owed his key donor's for having supported him financially. That's why he submitted to their request to run items through Customs, even if it broke the law, endangered satsangis with criminal penalties, and put the organization's reputation at risk.

To test the plausibility of this possible motive, we can put ourselves in the guru's shoes and imagine any entity taking care of our immediate family's financial welfare for decades. This much is certain: that was Charan's situation since becoming guru in 1951. Family members were paying all his bills. Would we react any differently than Charan if the entity supporting our family called in a favor, even if these favors broke the law?

Is there a more likely motive for Charan's acceptance of the smuggling scheme? I'd like to be fair to Charan, but a better explanation just doesn't come to mind. A family dynamic muddied by decades of financial support seems to be the reason for why this otherwise ethically sound guru compromised RSSB standards of honest living.

We'll probably never know the full extent of how family influence affects these Sant Mat gurus. But the history of the Kirpal and RSSB lines shows us that we're very naive if we think there's no influence.

I'm sorry Jay but the story of smuggling was discredited several years ago.

I called the consulate in New York and simply asked if people could bring in goods as gifts for others, using their import allowance. The Head Secretary of the consulate confirmed this was entirely legal and customary, even and including gifts to our Guru, as well as gifts brought home for the family, divided up to maximize each individuals' duty free allotment.

You are most welcome to call the consulate yourself to verify.

Please consider the golden rule before spreading hurtful and untrue statements

@Spencer. With all due respect, whether he misunderstood the question or you misunderstood his answer, it sounds to me that what the NY Consulate told you doesn't apply to what actually happened with Charan, his entourage, and the satsangis who helped them take luxury items back to India. The satsangis organized (under the aegis of Charan Singh) into taking gifts through Indian Customs weren't using their import allowance to actually give gifts to their friends and family, or to the Guru. They weren't giving gifts per se, as they were transporting gifts paid for by other people, to be given to other people. They weren't family members of the Guru, and were taking items through Customs for the benefit of people (the guru's family and friends) they didn't even know. This all came out in the testimony of a satsangi who was part of the smuggling operation. So I'm still of the opinion that what happened can only be termed fraud, and clearly contrary to Indian law. Moreover, Charan Singh was using the blind willingness of satsangis to break the law. Whether for free or for pay, there's no way it can be "entirely legal" to organize total strangers to carry items across Customs for other people for the sake of avoiding duties. Calling the items gifts (or actually, 3rd party gifts) doesn't mitigate the law. And if a law is broken, there's no way the breaking of said law can be excused as "customary." From what I recall back when this story broke, no one has ever produced any document showing that Indian Customs law allows for what the satsangis actually did for Charan and his family. Until such is produced, my opinion stays the same.

I have to side with Chris and others here that the charge that Gurinder has made "death threats" is purely an allegation at this point, and not a fact. Malvinder needs to produce evidence of death threats, not just promise that he has it.


3) Charan was apparently uncomfortable with the smuggling, and it's not entirely clear what part he had in organizing the smuggling operation, and therefore he bears little or no responsibility for it.
...
I think it's quite possible that Charan felt compromised by the considerable financial support of his family by other family members, and for that reason felt unable to deny their wishes to illegally circumvent Indian Customs.

Is there a compelling reason to reject door #3 and speculate
that Charan felt so ethically compromised he'd agree to an
illegal smuggling scheme?

Hi Jay
No perhaps I didn't make myself clear. I apologize.
The consulate secretary indicated that anyone can use their duty free allowance for anyone. So if someone you know asks you for this favor, and you consent, so long as the items aren't illegal, it's entirely legal to do the above. You can do it for a friend, or for their friend.

Satsangis who were going to visit Master were asked to help bring the Master's purchases and those of His family members and friends into India using their own duty free allowance.

This is legal, it isn't "smuggling", and at the time was presented and accepted as a Seva to the Master.

"smugglingDictionary result for smuggling
/ˈsməɡliNG/Submit
noun
the illegal movement of goods into or out of a country."

These were Satsangis asked to do a Seva for the Master all within the legal guidelines.

Whether that is appropriate is your call. But it is legal, and it isn't smuggling.

Since the Consulate Secretary specifically confirmed the above was legal, I think you will need to contact them to confirm for yourself. Your use of the word smuggling is wrong.

The only possibility of illegality would be if they tried to take something in without declaring it. And also, if the item was illegal in India. That would be smuggling. But that is not what happened here.

At the time the accusors did try also to say that Satsangis were smuggling illegal tech by donating their laptops to the Dera, for use at the Dera. The Consulate Secretary also confirmed that laptops of any kind were not illegal, and that if they donated their own used laptop as a gift there was no illegality so long as the assessed value did not exceed the legal duty free amount. In the case that it does, the consulate confirmed, the customs agent would simply assess the duty, which could be paid then, and again, the transaction is entirely legal.

Your argument isn't with me, Jay. It might be with the consulate.

The golden rule holds here. Take the extra step first please to verify, get corroboration, so that you avoid unfounded and hurtful accusations. You would want the same from others.

Latest Fortis action
https://www.ndtv.com/business/fortis-asks-sebi-to-arrest-malvinder-shivinder-singh-for-400-crore-fraud-1999098


BOTTOM LINE:
Malvinder's allegations at this stage can not be known as facts. People who can not bring themselves to acknowledge that 'fact' are operating from a self-delusion and are being dishonest -- both with themselves and with others -- if they maintain otherwise.

Similarly, the old, discredited 'smuggling' allegation also does not withstand close scrutiny. It is also an uncorroborated anecdotal allegation of which only the narrator (Bob Fields) -- according to his OWN account -- irrefutably acted unethically.

Critical thinking should still apply even if you are disappointed with a meditation practice and its results.

And connfirmational bias is still something to watch out for, even if you have become an athiest.

:-)

Thanks Mr Spencer for enlightening us. You revealed as also concluded:

I understand you system of belief. Maharaji is perfect, and therefore so is Gurinder. That's the inner experience. It is a beautiful sentiment. And it is only that kind of perfect love that yields the great inner gifts.
If it were I could state clearly that the inner perfection and the outer fall are both entirely real, entirely as planned and agreed upon long, long ago, and you and others would understand the veracity of that claim.

You have put your stamp of the path we have been treading still or were treading but with a note that the Perfect Masters are even subjected to errors or slips but these are just preordained and they just accept it regretfully irrespective of its consequences. Even though they are fully aware of same and may be planners of same themselves (here, RSSB Masters) at some level.

From your level of progress it came out that it is all a divine play and there is nothing that a Saint or even any other can do a wrong to other but we must be on the side of truth always.

Wish that some other or a few others (enlightened ones) may kindly second this revelation or is a witness to doings at higher levels. This life is a serious business of lives and deaths thus far and we can not treat it with kidgloves.

Any misunderstanding or fact must be dragged out so as to be thorough on whatever we may do next. I believe HIS Grace is always there for all of us to be with HIM but missing are the Efforts and Trust. Now you cannot run on this track with only Grace and Efforts it essentially requires Trust as third leg of the tripod so as to move in a balance to higher regions of consciousness.

Those who are on the path or off need not be worried or offended with the above revelation by the gentleman but be constructive without a bias. Thanks Brian Sir for providing this online forum for discussing a vital issue - quite prime in our lives.

No true enlightened one will ever even think of expressing their inner experiences on a blog or in any other explicit manner.

Their higher mind will stop them from doing so and they would feel uneasy or perhaps even disgusted at the thought of such an attempt.

Continue with your meditation, it is a form of expressing your desire to reunite with the Truth and each round is helping you to get closer to your destination.

Even if in the occasion, your faith in the Guru is shaky... go on, persist with your meditation.... think of it as an opportunity to express intent and desire to get closer to the Lord... The Lord is not blind and knows why you are meditating and what is it that your soul truly wants.

Hi Vicky
You wrote
"No true enlightened one will ever even think of expressing their inner experiences on a blog or in any other explicit manner."

You would have to be a true enlightened one to say so.

Now, if you are not enlightened, just experienced, you would not mind sharing what you have experienced.

There is no harm, so long as you accept one golden rule. It's just one person's experience.

But if you denegrate what is holy for anyone, then you do so to your own detriment.

For in their heart, there is your home also.


RE The claim that Charan's organized pooling of duty allowances was legal, and not smuggling at all.

The information I have on Indian Customs law on Baggage Rules states that: "The free allowance of a passenger shall not be allowed to pool with the free allowance of any other passenger." -->

http://www.cbic.gov.in/resources//htdocs-cbec/customs/cs-act/formatted-htmls/bgge-rules2016-ason23may2016.pdf;jsessionid=5BAB1C4D7CA8505D2CB5FE9115A2D0C9

Until someone produces a document that contradicts this, showing that what Charan's crew did was actually legal, then I'll be glad to reverse my opinion. However, at this point I'm still very skeptical of the explanation that Indian law had very high duty fees, AND at the same time encouraged people to make deals with any number of strangers to ferry items through Customs to avoid these duty fees.

So again, I challenge someone to produce a document verifying that what Charan oversaw was legal. We've gone as far as we can with what someone reportedly said on the phone.


I posted India's Baggage rules for 2016, which are an amendment of their 1998 rules. In case it's suspected that the Baggage Rules of 1998 allowed pooling of each passenger's free allowance.....they did not.

http://www.cybex.in/Baggage-Rules.aspx

Hi Jay!

I very much appreciate your investigation and documentation.

Either you are really trying hard, and admirably, to be objective, or you have little tolerance for feedback:

http://www.cbic.gov.in/resources//htdocs-cbec/customs/cs-act/formatted-htmls/bgge-rules2016-ason23may2016.pdf;jsessionid=5BAB1C4D7CA8505D2CB5FE9115A2D0C9ion:

Unfortunately, the evidence you have provided doesn't actually support your claim on three counts:

1. This is a 2016 update, and in no way can be used as evidence of the law three decades earlier.

2. The policy you site refers to

"An
Indian resident or a foreigner residing in India or a tourist of Indian origin, not being an infant
arriving from any country other than Nepal, Bhutan or Myanmar, shall be allowed clearance free
of duty articles in his bona fide baggage, that is to say, -.....
"

That would not include tourists who are from Europe or the States.

3. Also, the issue of pooling the allowance is something you may have misunderstood.

From the article:

"Explanation.- The free allowance of a passenger under this rule shall not be allowed to pool with
the free allowance of any other passenger."

I can't pool my allowance with my colleagues to allow John over there to bring in a car.

The allowance is strictly on what I carry in.

This was also clarified for me by the Secretary. So, clearly something about pooling was in the original law, but, as you can see, it isn't pooling if it is applied to the merchandise you are carrying in yourself.

Since you went to the trouble to get this document, but obviously, have read into it your own meaning, I strongly suggest you pick up the phone and make a call. I had to schedule an appointment, but it was all handled over the phone.

And then you have the correct interpretation from the source.

That's having a solid basis for judgement, if you need to judge this so.

But, Jay? What if you are wrong?

Every objective thinker is willing to test themselves against reality. That would be to make the call! As I did.

And then, yes, you may be wrong.

But what can I say then? Join the club.

I make mistakes every single day...

"If I'm right 50% of the time, I'm at my best"
Dale Carnegie

However, knowing this about myself, it's best to read the articles, see the facts, and where there is a question, go to a better source....The consulate.

Short course, avoid judgement whenever you can. it's a good practice and helps keep the world kind. Make judgments where life demands it of you.

The document you sent should have been your first step, not your last. But still, you haven't understood "pooling" correctly, and have assumed the laws haven't changed in 30 years.

Hi Spencer,

I am not close to being enlightened and I personally doubt that any truly enlightened soul would be on this blog to begin with.

As far as experiences go, I believe different ppl may have their own respective views about sharing it even if it's anonymously. As for me, it takes away how special/beautiful' personal the experience was simply by putting it in words.

One needs to experience such things for themselves, and it's goes far beyond seeing flashes of light or hearing fleeting 'sounds' during meditation which can even be passed off as a fragment of one's imagination /chemicals in the brain etc.

I guess experiencing a 'more or less' close bond with the Guru (irrespective of witnessing any results in meditation) combined with experiencing trembling fear or utter despair and hopelessness can also drive even the most skeptical disciples like me to believe that the Master is real and he is closer to us than we could possibly imagine.

Anyway, I'm sorry I may not be able to respond to any further comment as I've decided not to visit the blog anymore. I feel that whenever I meditate, my 'cup' is filled with love, inner peace and strength and everytime I visit this blog or engage in low vibrating/ energy thoughts, a bit of what's in the cup invariably gets poured out, which is such a waste!

After all we do have full freedom to choose whether we want to spend more time reading something on this blog or using our time and energy to meditate or listen to an uplifting video/ read an inspirational article etc.

Anyway, I wish you well and hope you find peace and joy!

Hi Vicky!
Thanks for your response.
From one perspective, you are absolutely free. Free to engage in pleasurable activity, and free to avoid unpleasant activity.

From the perspective of truth, it is painful and pleasant in turns. To reveal an ugly, painful truth we turned away from is actually progress towards a greater happiness.

Maharaji used to say that Master is like a Potter, beating the pot with a paddle on the outside while giving it living support from the inside.

Maharaji used to say that the Master is like a bulldozer. We are all chained to him and we only have the choice to walk along, accepting the inevitable, or be dragged along.

It's fascinating to see that Master has assigned a the driver of this bulldozer Brian Hines. And we are being dragged through our own justifications, weaknesses, excuses to a higher truth.

Because whatever excuses make for Baba Ji are only justifications for our own shoetcomings.

I don't mind being dragged through Mr own prejudices and superstitions if that is the only way to get me through.

It's not so bad. And the light ahead is magnificent.

Hi Vicky
Yes it can be disheartening to read Brian's remarks and views, and others with so little knowledge of the path.

But, is it really so limited?

Let me be more precise.
Remember when Maharaji said that the Master is the bulldozer, and we are all chained to that, and if we walk along its all nice, but if we cling to our attachments and superstitions, then we will be dragged?

Well damn if He didn't put old Brian in the driver's seat.

Yes it's not pleasant to deal with corruption, fraud, and all the scrambling excuses that arise when you lift the rock to expose the rotting flesh, worms and maggots to the sun.

But I'm grateful to be dragged through it and out of it.

I must remember to tip our driver when this little trip is over.

@ Spencer, RE Charan Singh's Smuggling.

Spencer, I posted 2 links from official Indian government websites, one from 2016 and one from the 1990s, that clearly state that pooling duty allowances simply isn't allowed. "With any other passenger" seems pretty unambiguous to me.

But again, if you can find a document from Indian law that shows that duty pooling was allowed (and that Charan's oversight of the scheme to smuggle items through Customs was actually legal), then I'll be glad to look at it, and even agree with you that I was wrong. At this point though, you haven't offered any such evidence that India once deemed it legal to organize people into bringing in luxury goods for other people in order to bypass paying India duty on those items.

The evidence I present was found fairly easily with a few web searches.

(As for what I think Chris wrote about the satsangi Bob Fields, who detailed this smuggling operation under Charan, it's rather false. Fields was known by such satsangis as David Lane, and there's no reason to believe his detailed testimony about the smuggling was in any way untrue. It's clear that laws were broken, and that Charan was quite aware of the operation to use satsangis as mules to get around India's Custom laws and avoid paying duty on luxury items purchased by the guru and his Indian entourage.)

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