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February 20, 2019

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The Radha Soami Satsang Beas guru, who supposedly is a spiritual leader, is making death threats against his cousin because Malvinder won't agree to forgiving hundreds of millions of dollars of loans illegally made to Gurinder Singh Dhillon, his family, and close associates.

Huh? A rush to declare GSD as the mastermind of a "death threat"
based on a mystery tape allegedly sent by GSD's atty (without a
voice analysis and expert transcription) seems preposterous. What
proof is provided of the provenance of the tape itself?

Was GSD's atty known for thuggish threats or doing a "Michael
Cohen" intimidation shtick? Did he represent others in GSD's orbit?
If so, what eliminates the other "usual suspects" from suspicion?

When was the alleged "death threat" made? How? Brown paper
bag on doorstep? Kept for forensic analysis? Was incident reported
to police immediately? Why not? If Malvinder was trembling from
credible death threats why didn't he go into hiding?

Isn't it obvious why discriminating blog readers (of whatever
religious or non-religious affiliation) should reserve judgment
before readying the scaffold? Or besmirching lives and
reputations...


The Radha Soami Satsang Beas guru, who supposedly is a spiritual leader, is making death threats against his cousin because Malvinder won't agree to forgiving hundreds of millions of dollars of loans illegally made to Gurinder Singh Dhillon, his family, and close associates.

Huh? A rush to declare GSD as the mastermind of a "death threat"
based on a mystery tape allegedly sent by GSD's atty (without a
voice analysis and expert transcription) seems preposterous. What
proof is provided of the provenance of the tape itself?

Was GSD's atty known for thuggish threats or doing a "Michael
Cohen" intimidation shtick? Did he represent others in GSD's orbit?
If so, what eliminates the other "usual suspects" from suspicion?

When was the alleged "death threat" made? How? Brown paper
bag on doorstep? Kept for forensic analysis? Was incident reported
to police immediately? Why not? If Malvinder was trembling from
credible death threats why didn't he go into hiding?

Isn't it obvious why discriminating blog readers (of whatever
religious or non-religious affiliation) should reserve judgment
before readying the scaffold? Or besmirching lives and
reputations...

Completely agree with Dungeness!! It's unbelievable how people falsely accuse Babaji of making death threats without thinking about acquiring proof/ evidence on the same.

Anyway, if Babaji wanted to get out of this mess, he would have accepted money/ donations from his disciples and I can guarantee that he would receive the funds (no matter how astronomical they are) in just a matter of few days. Millions of disciples would happily and eagerly agree to contribute financially up to their best capacity and majority would still continue following the path wholeheartedly. Don't you think?

But he rather face these difficulties himself and resolve things in the manner he feels is best.

Please at least blind the email ids from the documents and respect data privacy

Thank you Dungeness.
You remind us to separate facts from conclusions.
We must draw our own conclusions and each with our own criteria.

Fraud happened, as I conclude, based on these newspaper reports, the audits, and the current investigations.

Baba Ji's role is unclear, but it's getting clearer. The letter he himself submitted is evidence that he intended to deal his way out of his Liabilities, which grew exponentially when he took the fraudulent loan money, and transfer his legal responsibilities rather than make public that these are his liabilities, and accept with full transparency his responsibility.

If a true Master can live on a tiny income without having to compromise his personal ethics, what excuse does a billionaire have?

We, you, me and each of us, make choices every day in how we choose to spend our spiritual wealth, our attention.

A true Spiritual Master spends it on Spirit. What is more interesting than the divine Word?

Necessity requires that we place our mind in the work of this world, but we do so only to meet our responsibilities. We keep our life small enough to give maximum time to our beloved, to the Word, Christ, our Master.

To see the opposite, and to watch the cascading scandel, the growing disruption, growing in large part because, as you see from his letter, Baba Ji engaged in another layer of secret deals in 2013 to avoid his duty, is greatly disturbing. And to see his submission this week of this letter as proof he is not responsible for this fraud, and the liabilities that has come with the money he took, only adds to his decline as a model of spirituality.

But, within, it's all clear. The addiction to money, the temptation to use power to grow wealth, and the inevitable fall, scandel and shame is already written in the records. We can only sit back and try to enjoy the drama. But I am not enjoying it.

But with each day Baba Ji or his lovers can't say "Oops! Sorry! I fell. My bad. I'll spend my days working to pay it back..." He compounds the problem, he multiplies the problem. And he remains outside that inner place that simply does not allow for this division of priorities. To some Baba Ji's choice to grow incredible wealth looks like a fabulous life, but to those of spirit, it is a terrible misuse of our limited time here, and a critically flawed model of how to handle temptation.... By avoiding it, not indulging in it.


Do people get paid by Brian to spend so much time on analysing and producing these expert reports or they have nothing much to do in life?

Guru, you don't know what you're talking about, which is common with religious believers.

I have three blogs. I write everything on my blogs by myself. I do this because I like to write, and I enjoy truth-telling. I spent quite a bit time writing this post, which naturally required me to carefully read Malvinder's complaint document, because it is part of the truth about Gurinder Singh Dhillon and his financial misdeeds.

Naturally most of my day isn't spent on blogging, and certainly not on Church of the Churchless posts. It's just one of many things that I enjoy doing. If you want to read what I've written about local political matters here in Salem, Oregon, check out this post. After I spent two hours at a neighborhood association meeting, it took me about an hour and a half to write a blog post about the meeting.

https://hinessight.blogs.com/salempoliticalsnark/2019/02/third-bridge-talked-about-in-three-acts-last-night.html

So next time think before leaving a ridiculous comment. I realize that clear thinking is difficult for many religious believers, but you should give it a try. Reality is too important to ignore. Don't live in a fog of your own deluded mind. Try to see reality as it is, not as how you would like it to be.

Disturbing it is, no doubt. How to go about it, next is a huge dilemma for even most devoted satsangis as of now. How to swallow it with ease is yet another question. Matter is not that simple as a few of us may have tried to take it and condone it.


This issue is going to have lasting effect on the psyches of us till it finds an answer which may not be forthcoming very soon except for us to draw our own conclusions, else put in extreme efforts to find an answer inside (thru meditation) which is also not that easy and with this I have doubts if he exists internally. I would rather pray HIm to give an answer to us all from inside then let us draw our own conclusions and if not, then who do we trust blindly henceforth!


Since He has been appointed by previous Guru how is this that the previous Guru had made a wrong choice summarising that perhaps, the previous one was not that God-alike to have made such a choice - a thing that still may condone the present crisis with RSSB head.

The whole idea of'' a person saves you from transmigration ''is actually weird

@Brian,
Can you distinguish an allegation from a fact?

@Meditator
On you comment: "How to go about it, next is a huge dilemma for even most devoted satsangis as of now."
Either you trust the Master or you don't.

@Spence Tepper
There are 2 sides on a story. Through this blog we have only be given one side.
The document you are referring to, could well be one of many which if combined could tell a whole different story. But I guess this is for the prosecutors to decide. Not me. Not you. Not Brian.

Interestingly in an article appearing in the indian press (link below), Godhwani stated that the complaints against him and Babaji were “diversionary tactics by the Singh brothers to avoid paying Rs 3500 crore to Daiichi Sankyo and that the brothers were very much in control of the missing cash”.

https://www.btvi.in/opinion/new-twist-in-the-tale-of-singh-brothers/127824

So, yeah. 2 sides of a story. Don't rush to crucify the man.

On a totally different note,
@Brian,
On a previous thread/comment you wrote:

"Regarding why I left RSSB, the truth is that I was fired as a satsang speaker in 2005 and was told this was because my blog posts were making some people uncomfortable.

I've also written about how I was criticizing RSSB before I was fired as satsang speaker. Which makes sense, since as I just noted, the reason I was fired was that my blog posts were upsetting people. It wasn't the other way around -- that I started writing critical blog posts after being fired."

Mate, honestly, you were not "fired". It was not a job. It was seva. You either do it wholeheartedly or you don't. So, if you had your philosophical doubts about Sant Mat, you shouldn't be giving satsang. As simple as that. No one ever claimed that Satsang was a philosophical arena. You had/have your doubts? Good. Go your way, sail free. It was -at best- hypocritical of you to give satsang while you had so strong doubts about it in the first place.

Also you wrote:

"I don't know why some people are so obsessed with why I left RSSB,"
Like, really? 85% of your blog posts revolve around RSSB. I do not really believe that anybody really cares WHY you left.
The question is, if you left, because you had an illumination of some sort, why do you still bother?

Since He has been appointed by previous Guru how is this that the previous Guru had made a wrong choice summarising that perhaps, the previous one was not that God-alike to have made such a choice - a thing that still may condone the present crisis with RSSB head.

Posted by: Meditator

@ Meditator,
This question puzzles my brain already for months..

Whisper, I guess you haven't read the Sant Mat/RSSB books that I have. Charan Singh, who initiated me in 1971 was very clear about meditation being an experiment where we seek to have direct experience of reality. Clinging to dogmas and theology isn't the Sant Mat that I was taught.

So do you believe that Gurinder Singh was wrong when I kept on being re-appointed as secretary of our sangat for many years, during which I gave satsang at many of the meetings? For a long time I also gave satsangs at numerous bhandaras (larger gatherings).

During that time I'd always take a scientific approach, mixed in with a healthy dose of humor. One of my usual lines was, "The easiest vow for satsangis to keep is not revealing the mystical experiences they've had in meditation -- because they aren't having any."

That would get some laughs. Because it was true. After the talk, often people would come up to me and say, "Thanks for being so honest. You said some things that I've felt myself, but didn't have the courage to say to others."

"Sat" or truth obviously is the core of satsang. It makes no sense to parrot dogmas that you don't know to be true. That isn't satsang -- that's religious fundamentalism. So I still view myself as being a "satsang" speaker of sorts. I''m just doing it on this blog. I speak the truth as I understand it. That's all anyone can do.

Regarding Malvinder's criminal complaint, I'll throw your question back at you: how do you know that it isn't true? Malvinder has presented a lot of facts and documents that back his claims of criminality by Gurinder Singh, his family, and his associates.

The guru will have his chance to refute those claims. That's how the law works. So far, Gurinder Singh has been silent, while his accusers have spoken. That's his choice, but if he had solid evidence to refute Malvinder's complaint, one would think that he'd provide it.

Or maybe he is waiting for the criminal case to move forward. Regardless, it's decidedly weird for a supposedly spiritual guru to be embroiled in accusations of death threats and massive financial fraud. Not uncommon, just weird. This sort of stuff happens frequently with religious leaders. I just expected more of a RSSB guru, given how much I liked, even loved, Charan Singh.

Quote Brian
... I speak the truth as I understand it

_____
Sounds very religious to me

Marko, actually what I said sounds very human and scientific to me. Tell me: do you yourself speak the truth as you understand it? Or do you speak lies? Most people, with the notable exception of President Trump, do their best to speak the truth as they understand it.

Religions, on the other hand, expect believers to parrot dogmas and theologies even if those people don't have any genuine understanding that what they're saying is true. For example, I used to hate RSSB "satsangs" where someone would just read from a book, and/or utter platitudes. That wasn't speaking truth; that was being a human tape player.

A Guru or teacher can be entirely inspirational to seek the higher in yourself ..

One can keep the beautiful things in ones very own heart..

Hi whisper
Actually I've read what Brian has linked and more, including the audit reports.

Actually it is for each of us to make up our own mind. Once you selectively choose not to use you capacity to distinguish right from wrong, you choose to turn from the Path itself.

Improve your judgment by getting enough facts.

The legal documents describing Gurindar's sale of the charitable hospital to himself, after he had contracted with a construction firm on behalf of the Sangat to rebuild it at cost, then oblige the construction firm to build it for the for- profit Fortis, after having sold it to them, was enough for me.

Gurindar 's own letter, attempting to escape his debts, gained thrift fraudulent loans, seal it for me.

But you should do some research. It is your duty as a Satsangi.

A painful duty to Maharaji which Brian has fulfilled.

s*, what you say is true. But a guru like Gurinder Singh Dhillon also can represent the lowest in oneself. Unless someone wants to consider that making death threats and engaging in fraudulent financial wrongdoing is something people should aspire to.

Hi Madrugada
'How could Maharaji have made a mistake in selecting Baba Ji?'

When Satsangis hold to the perfection of the Master in their justifications for mischief by Satsangis that is the disease of dogma. It is giving oneself permission to avoid personal responsibility, because "The Master said...." mischief is the result.

The human mind isn't perfect therefore your question cannot be answered with any knowledge. You will have to gather facts, and if you can, go within.

But in all events there is no escape from the duty to Truth, in the name of these teachings, to investigate, weigh the facts, and make your own decision.

Courts also make mistakes.

There is no escape from your responsibility as an adult.

Indeed, as a lover of truth you must dig deep past emotion, investigate, and use the tools your Master gave you please.


Yeah yeah Brian i understand what you say but still i hear your sentence about your truth from many different people even worst criminals. It just doesnt do for me if someone says i am telling my truth . He could be telling truth but he could also.
May i ask are you thinking you are telling truth or are you telling the truth?

Marko, I'm not into word games. If you think a guru making death threats and engaging in fraudulent financial deals is OK, then no matter what word you use, you're not a respecter of truth. I am. Everybody has to make their own choices in life.

Brian my question was not about current theme. And ofcourse i am against any crime and condemn it but look how pre arranged thinking you have . A little critic to your sentence and you already think i am defending current events or everytime you hear a critic you already have a believer in your mind kind of obsessed with believers( oh i actually dont know whats in your mind you are right). No i am not defending any current stuff never was and i never was in any religious group and was thrown out of local church at 15yo for criticizing it. Actually Brian it really was not even a critic to you nor any word game. But i rarely see you admit any mistake in your philosophy . I really salute critical thinking but not only to others but also toward oneself which you lack big time. I think you are still rookie in explaining scientific things and am yet to see a day when you hear a critic towards yourself and agreeing with it. But i believe you will manage someday to accept a critic and not immediately think that one who set critic towards you is a " believer" or against you.
And here is a little critic to you...oh Brian you really like word games, you are a diva in this game, you are the zen of word games. Now Brian take your deadless scary taichi and break some squirrel s necks.

Hi Brian,
Yes I see what you mean.
I mean keep your good beautiful remembrences,because that is inside yourself.
It never was from someone else..it was always from your very own..but Inspired!
It's good to keep the good things from your path.

I learned Love from maharaji being veg and learned how to live..
I was 19 and Maharaji became my beloved Father figure.

I could not see that in Gurinder but I loved him because Maharaji choose him I think.

And I never ''liked''the teachings about the scary slipdowns,transmigration etc..

So..and what happens now..maybe it is good because.., people do not think for themselves ones on the path.
Now they have too think and inquire what is right or wrong.

Not depending on the Master might be very new for a lot of people now..

Narcissistic Personality Disorder
Individuals with this disorder exhibit a lack of ability to empathize with others and an inflated sense of self-importance.

Definition
The hallmarks of Narcissistic Personality Disorder (NPD) are grandiosity, a lack of empathy for other people, and a need for admiration. People with this condition are frequently described as arrogant, self-centered, manipulative, and demanding. They may also concentrate on grandiose fantasies (e.g. their own success, beauty, brilliance) and may be convinced that they deserve special treatment. These characteristics typically begin in early adulthood and must be consistently evident in multiple contexts, such as at work and in relationships.

People with narcissistic personality disorder believe they are superior or special, and often try to associate with other people they believe are unique or gifted in some way. This association enhances their self-esteem, which is typically quite fragile underneath the surface. Individuals with NPD seek excessive admiration and attention in order to know that others think highly of them. Individuals with narcissistic personality disorder have difficulty tolerating criticism or defeat, and may be left feeling humiliated or empty when they experience an "injury" in the form of criticism or rejection.

Related Personality Disorders: Antisocial, Borderline, Histrionic, Paranoid.

Symptoms
Narcissistic personality disorder is indicated by five or more of the following symptoms:

Exaggerates own importance

Is preoccupied with fantasies of success, power, beauty, intelligence or ideal romance

Believes he or she is special and can only be understood by other special people or institutions

Requires constant attention and admiration from others

Has unreasonable expectations of favorable treatment

Takes advantage of others to reach his or her own goals

Disregards the feelings of others, lacks empathy

Is often envious of others or believes other people are envious of him or her

Shows arrogant behaviors and attitudes

@Meditator
Since He has been appointed by previous Guru how is this that the previous Guru had made a wrong choice summarising that perhaps, the previous one was not that God-alike to have made such a choice - a thing that still may condone the present crisis with RSSB head.

Extending a bit on my previous post of yesterday night, may I add further that it is the lineage of Perfect Gurus or Masters especially RSSB ones that are being questioned and not present Guru alone, As each of the predecessor has duly appointed the next one in succession it may imply that we are questioning/doubting the integrity as also the perfectness (oneness with God) of each one of them. And even our trust on the path and surety or guarantee rests on this complete perfect lineage of previous Gurus than mere present Master.

My submission is that either all of them may have been perfect including the present one or each one of them may have some slip somewhere beyond our immediate knowledge or comprehension despite all the proofs that are available in santmat books/articles about their adeptness in spiritual field upto the topmost region.


Actually what is being discussed is some particular - specific hits and misses by the poor Guru, so I may call now as these are mere allegations which need be corroborated further to really put the curtains down on the path. Story seems complete to many to nail the Guru but His unequivocal version is yet to come and which is very much expected given the tremendous confusion among his followers.

It is definite that matter is very critical given the teachings preached by HE himself quite often in each satsang while he need to defend himself within the purview of same.


There are no perfect masters..that is what we know now..
There never were perfect masters.
Babaji said in his last books that he does not come at dead.
Also that 4 lifes were not a quaranty etc.
Maharaji Charan Singh said in earlier times that the Master stays quarant for his diciples but Babaji in fact changed the teachings.
I found that very strange already.
Soo ..how so.. perfect.?
Maharaji Charan Singh choose Baba Gurinder who changed the teachings totaly..!!

Sant Rajinder Singh's younger brother "Mac Duggal" writes

"All this success came with challenges. In 1989 when my respected father passed away my brother took over his role as spiritual leader and the responsibility of supporting both families fell to me."

http://americanhistory.si.edu/family-voices/individuals/mac-duggal

I'm not aware of Sant Rajinder Singh acknowledging that his younger brother has been the source of his income for the last 30 years. Bios of Sant Rajinder Singh only mention that the guru "had a distinguished 20 year career in science," but make no mention of how he's supported himself since. Sant mat tradition is that gurus live off their retirement pensions and savings. Or are otherwise financially self-supporting. Perhaps that has something to do with this apparent reticence to give his brother his due for such astounding generosity.

So why wouldn't Sant Rajinder Singh acknowledge that is brother has been the source of his income? Why isn't that part of his SOS bio? If there's no shame in having a family member support you for 30 years, if this is normal and above board in Indian culture, why was it kept a secret from the sangat?

One thing that Mac Duggal makes clear is that the money Sant Rajinder Singh was receiving from him wasn't earned for services rendered. I've heard it suggested that the guru was somehow working for his brother, and so the money he was getting was fairly earned. But Mac Duggal clearly says "the responsibility of supporting both families fell to me." Not to me and my brother in a business partnership.

There's still the question of whether Sant Rajinder Singh is withdrawing funds from SOS. I think it's a definite possibility. In fact, given the creative way this family deals with its personal history, at this point I'd be surprised if it wasn't happening. Anyway, it's now known that the guru has been covering up the source of his finances for the last 30 years, leading everyone to assume that he gracefully retired from his electronics career an extremely wealthy man.

Little little things, by Sant Kirpal Singh ~

"First of all, you see: We should stand on our own legs. Don't be dependent on anybody. One Saint prays, 0 God, give me this: That I may stand on my own legs. If I have to be dependent on others, it is better that You take my soul from the body. To be dependent on others is a heinous crime; all evils creep in. So we must have honest earning. All Masters have referred to it; Guru Nanak said, He who earns his money in the honest way and shares with others, such a man alone can know God. Whatever money we receive through dishonest means, naturally, we have got that dishonesty creeping up within ourselves. If money is earned by honest means, then you will find some rest—some peace."

Of course, then there's Gurinder Singh. He too has been somehow living in grand style for 30 years, presumably without a paycheck from an employer. The idea here too is that Gurinder somehow made a colossal fortune by the time he was 34.

Success in sant mat takes faith.

On Sant Rajinder Singh's finances ~

Sant Rajinder Singh lives at 69 Baybrook LN #4650, Oak Brook, IL 60523

This is a photo of his house https://tinyurl.com/y44mvc4k

His house is appraised at 2 million dollars.

https://www.remax.com/homevalues/oakbrook-il-p001.html?query=addr-69%20baybrook%20ln,%20oak%20brook,%20il

Sant Rajinder has put two of his children through medical school. He's reported to have owned expensive sports cars. Where did the money come from for all of this?


Sant Rajinder Singh became the leader of his father's religious organization around 1990, or when he was in his early 40s. At that time he had a successful but relatively modest career was working as an electrical engineer, but left it because of the time commitment involved with running Science of Spirituality. Sant Rajinder Singh spends much time traveling, and also several months at his ashram in India every year. It seems clear that his duties as religious leader are a nothing less than a full-time job. How is it that he's able to own a home in one of the wealthiest neighborhoods in Chicagoland?

Neither Sant Rajinder Singh or his organization have explained how he's able to live in such splendor, despite having retired decades ago from his career. It doesn't seem likely that the guru has significant time for any business interests. And yet there's no doubt that since he became guru, literally millions of dollars have somehow made their way into Sant Rajinder's bank account.

One possibility is that Sant Rajinder Singh's brother is giving him all the money. Possibly other family members are giving money.

Another possibility, a darker one to be sure, is that large amounts of money have come out of Science of Spirituality to support Sant Rajinder Singh and his family. I have no evidence to support this being so, but I do believe it's at least possible. I've long held Sant Rajinder in high regard. But I've also noted a pattern of dishonesty and self-aggrandizement. The claims of divinity and unique initiation powers, the coveting of personal awards and associations with the famous, the scheme to use followers to buy up books to make the author a writer of a "best seller." Is it possible that Sant Rajinder Singh could take money out of Science of Spirituality? Given his obvious wealth and lack of any means to procure it, it has to at least be a possibility. Could this be done undetected? Wouldn't satsangis blow the whistle on such a thing? Because SOS is a religious non-profit organization, it's very possible that the finances of SOS could remain a secret from everyone but the guru. Unlike regular non-profits, a religious non-profit doesn't have to reveal any of its financial records to the public. Some might assume that a non profit organization can only pay out modest salaries, but that's not how it is. I know of charitable non profits much smaller than SOS which pay their leaders extremely generous salaries.

Wherever Sant Rajinder Singh is getting the money that supports his lavish lifestyle, one avenue seems extremely unlikely. There doesn't seem to be any evidence that he's actually earning the money from a job or a business. Either someone (likely his family members) have been giving him huge amounts of cash, or he's taking cash from SOS. Or both. There doesn't seem to be a third option.

And with what we've read lately about Gurinder Singh's financial status, and the mystery of Charan Singh's unexplained wealth, things are no different in RSSB land. I used to believe that all of these gurus were above reproach, that all of them lived off their actual earnings. Lived off their actual earnings, you know, the way they told us we had to if we were to be good satsangis. Hard for me to believe that now. I just don't believe it anymore. I think it's more likely than not that these gurus actually are taking money from their followers in some way or other. One thing is beyond clear. None of these godmen are actually "living off their own earnings," that isn't even a question anymore. Clearly, none of them have "earned a living," made the money that has supported them in grand style for decades. How could they? They don't have the time.

As for the supposedly benign effect of the guru's family members doing money seva to their divine son or sibling, well, we're seeing the results of that generosity in RSSB. All those relations who gave money to the last guru were surely well repaid for it, extremely well so. They knew what they were doing and what the ROI for money seva to Maharaji would be, as the family fortune increased exponentially. As for Gurinder and related parties, we're seeing what money and "the world" actually means to them.

I should have seen it long before. As Sant mat progressed from guru to guru, the gurus kept getting wealthier, lived more opulent lifestyles, and gave up on really and truly living off their own earnings.

To this, the devoted will offer the same familiar lines of explanation and exculpation for why guru and his money are just fine and dandy, move along, nothing to see here. But as I see it, the last few gurus of sant mat owe the world an explanation for where the considerable money in their pockets came from. They have never given us an explanation. I think that's largely because they can't, and because they've convinced us it would be impolite to ask them if they're living up to the standards they hold everyone else to, and maybe because they're like us, and know that living off one's relatives isn't something they'd like the world to know about.

New film, The Disappointing Buddha: Understanding the Vicarious Nature of Spiritual Hero Worship.

This is a visual-film we recently did of an article I wrote a couple of years ago entitled "The Disappointing Buddha: Understanding the Vicarious Nature of Spiritual Hero Worship." Narrated by Jason Zenobia.

https://youtu.be/HnEQ81ZD9es

Hi guys

Been looking over the latest posts. Certainly still a lot of to-ing and fro-ing in regard to the unfolding RSSB drama. ‘Oneness’ and ‘GIHF’ or not, on the face of it something must be going down. For me the truth of it is strengthened by Brian’s postings of Sheena’s info as well as all the stories in the press. Another confirmation came when I had a recent visit from an old-time satsangi friend who as far as I know does not read this blog - he’s quite appalled and said ‘it’s all over India’. Certainly there is lots of smoke - gotta be some fire.
Keeping the ‘Guru knows what he’s doing’ view out of it, I think the actions and behaviours are clearly consistent with improper business practice. I think Spencer (and Brian) have done a great job of pointing out where the issues lie. Given (as far as I can make out) Spencer’s work at the interface of business and health, he would be well aware of the importance of transparency and application of ethical behaviour.
I also tend to agree with Spencer, that we could well be seeing the end of this RSSB line. Maybe the whole saga is a great opportunity for GS to hang up his boots and hand it all over as a ‘going religious concern’. He could well have to if the process results in prosecutions including his own. While this will be a shock to many core believers, it is not out of the ordinary when it comes to the Guru game. Money/fraud/sex issues have been responsible for quite a number of scandals/take downs over the years - Sai Baba, Osho Rajneesh, Da-Free John, Muktananada, Thakar Singh are a few that come to mind. Must be the Lord’s will :-).
In regard to recent comment about Brian being ‘fired from satsang’ I can relate to this. Years ago, I also used to give satsang, but instead of making humorous comment about the lack of experiences etc, I found it increasingly difficult to reconcile my own experience/understanding with the teachings. I could no longer talk about concepts such as reincarnation and the soul’s separation as I no longer believed in such.
One thing that is true however, is that many of us commenting here still have a connection with RSSB in that we were initiated by Charan Singh. I remain grateful for that and have some happy/blissful memories of times in his presence. In the sphere of body-mind all things evolve and change in my view. Master or not, Charan’s words ‘may your love of the form culminate in love of the formless’ points us to that which does not. We are already ‘it’ but keep thinking we’re not. In the movie The Love Guru (a great laugh imo), GURU is spelled out as ‘Gee you are you’. All this drama is helping us to stand on our own feet and find it out for ourselves.
Best wishes

Thank you!
For the help of so many people here and elswhere to discover thruth.
Even Babaji did his best to uncover the dogma's!!
Thanks and I know and understand the pain babaji and family's are going trough.
Love is helping for all of us on this planet..
Love is something eveybody tries to find and it is in our own heart.

Namaste
s*

@ Spence Tepper, you wrote of “...legal documents describing Gurinder's sale of the charitable hospital to himself, after he had contracted with a construction firm on behalf of the Sangat to rebuild it at cost, then oblige the construction firm to build it for the for-profit Fortis, after having sold it to them...”
and of “...Gurindar 's own letter, attempting to escape his debts, gained thrift fraudulent loans...”
Is that available to see online somewhere?

To Jay.
I am not aware of there being any “mystery of Charan Singh's unexplained wealth”. He and his brother Shoti inherited lands including the family farm at Sirsa. Shoti retired early from the army to manage it. And Charan lived very modestly. So I don't know what "wealth” you are referring to. Can you be specific?

Concerning some of the extended Dhillon family's wealth, here is an excerpt from a recent article that acknowledges how a property boom in India has been turning “farmers into millionaires”.

“Still, Dhillon hails from a family of major landowners in Punjab... Towns outside India’s capital, New Delhi, were experiencing a property boom that was turning farmers into millionaires...”
https://www.bloombergquint.com/business/billionaires-and-the-guru-how-an-indian-family-lost-2-billion#gs.NJtitlVY


@Tim well said.

Wow, I’m really impressed by many of the thoughtful and well written comments posted here. The “conversation” as Marianne Williamson so often says, has really evolved.

I don’t have enough time to “@“ each weiter’s comment and say how much I appreciate what you’ve written but it’s nice that people are really thinking about this from all angles and addressing the ongoing RSSB saga.

That said, I’m pretty sure GSD checks in on Brian’s blog... and the Singh brothers as well. Many, many satsangis and ex-satsangis do without ever posting a comment.

It’s really important to keep the “conversation” going... that’s how we as humans get closer to finding truth.

Quote Tim Rimmer: “I also tend to agree with Spencer, that we could well be seeing the end of this RSSB line.”


I agree with all of your very sensible comment, Tim, except for this one sentence. I very much doubt RSSB will die out.

Religion and rationality don’t go together. Religion thrives on the back of the irrational faithful, who do not care for fact and are not worried about what reality is, and there is never any dearth of these.

If egregious hypocrisy and corruption and criminality were sufficient cause to snuff out religious movements, then Christianity itself would have died out many centuries ago. Starting with the wholly irrational roots of this religion, going on to outright appropriation later on by opportunistic “ministers” and “princes” of the movement/Church after the religion received the blessings of the Roman Empire, and after that to the outright corruption wholly lacking in the smallest smidgen of actual spirituality as far as the higher officials of the Church in the Middle Ages, and after that to the shameless collusion of the RCC with the forces of Nazism and fascism, and now to repeated backtracking about its past sins and irrationalities as well as sex-related crimes and cover-ups -- if at all there had been the slightest correlation between corruption and the snuffing out of a religion, then Christianity would long ago have come to an end.

Of course, the fact is that the same can be said, with minor variations here and there, about practically every religious movement, round the world. This is not to single out any one single strand of this broad theme. I take the example of Christianity and Catholicism simply as the most egregious example there is of this sort of thing,

Given that Christianity still thrives, and given, especially, that that hotbed of sin and vice and greed and corruption and self-serving hypocrisy that is headquartered at the Vatican still thrives, I think your prediction that RSSB is coming to an end as a result of these revelations about corruption, is extremely unlikely. If it does come to an end, then that will be because of the ineptitude of the people currently running the show, and not because there is anything inherent in these revelations of corruption that might bring down this movement.




Incidentally: You used to “give Satsang”, is it, Tim? Seems like we are in august company here! Brian himself, and Osho Robbins, and now you as well … This does reinforce my view that the only thing that keeps people religious is their inability and/or unwillingness to closely examine the details of their faith. It is this ignorance that keeps religions running. The more deeply people study their own religions, the more they familiarize themselves with what their religion really entails, and the more clearly they think these things through, the likelier they are to break through to doubt, and further on to outright atheism.

Not that this matters to religions, because there seems no dearth of newer marks lining up to take the place of the disillusioned. The likes of the Pope and GSD will be unlikely to have any trouble financing their mansions and their fleet of aircraft and luxury cars any time soon.


@David Lane


Thank you for the link David, this is just what i needed.
Standing on one's own legs is the lesson.

New film, The Disappointing Buddha: Understanding the Vicarious Nature of Spiritual Hero Worship.

https://youtu.be/HnEQ81ZD9es

Thanks David, the video is just amazing. It sums up most of spirituality.

There is little available evidence that Charan Singh supported himself financially from 1951 to his death in 1990. The official Beas line is that Charan was a practicing lawyer but had to quit that profession and help in his family farm business in Sirsa. Since Charan lived at the RS dera from 1951 onward, the claim that he was actively involved in the Sirsa farm seems unsupportable. It's more plausible that Charan quit his law career for the same reason that Sant Rajinder Singh quit his electronics career. That is, the full time commitment involved with managing a large religious organization. The line that Charan "had to" help with the farm is at best a half truth that obscures the basic fact that Charan didn't earn an income for nearly 40 years. In other words, "had to" suggests that the farm was struggling to make a profit. But given that Charan lived off the farm's success for decades, "had to" is The income Charan received wasn't truly an inheritance, The inheritance was that land itself. But what Charan received was the financial fruits of a family business with which he had little to no active part. Again, this is very similar to the questionable financial relationship of Sant Rajinder Singh with his younger brother, Mac Duggal. To claim that either of these gurus was financially self-supporting is to base that claim on the thinnest of technicalities. As for Charan Singh's wealth, his apparent modest income was somehow sufficient for nearly 4 decades of living expenses in which he raised a family, traveled the world, and had the means to purchase luxury items while in London. It's time for both RSSB and SOS to admit that some of the gurus in their line really weren't faithfully to the directive that "members are encouraged to be self-supporting and not be a burden on society."

To Jay. I would like to suggest something to you. Could it be possible that you are posting speculative comments based on a pre-concieved prejudice?
I have been in Charan Singh's house at Dera in the 1980's and as far as I could see he did NOT live luxuriously. So I suspect your belief that there is any "mystery" of "unexplained wealth" is not actually based on reality. Also, your speculation of the wealth of his family members who travelled with him abroad seems unfounded too. Are you suggesting that none of them had careers or jobs?
Sawan Singh set up all his sons and grandchildren so that they wouldn't be a burden on the Beas sangat. Families in India live differently than families in America and Britain. Extended families and multiple generations not only share houses but poorer families even share bedrooms. They also share wealth and earnings. Shiv Dayal Singh largely lived off the earnings of his younger brother Brindaban Singh. But the family was relatively wealthy anyway and owned property. Would you also argue that Shiv Dayal Singh lived luxuriously off his brother dishonestly and unethically? I suggest that your disappointment in Sant Mat has caused you to have a distorted view. We ALL have to watch out for any confirmation bias skewing our thinking.

Likewise with the allegations against G.S. Dhillon and Sunil Godwhani levelled by Malav. It clearly looks bad, but again I see people allowing a prejudice to colour their judgement prematurely. I.e. we have people here assuming that what at this stage are unsubstantiated allegations are in their minds corroborated facts. They aren't. So as I see it, that is just another example of false belief. People have swapped one form of uncorroborated belief 'for or 'pro' something, to merely another form of uncorroborated belief against or 'anti' due to disappointment. I see both as projection, delusional and based in egocentric, self-justifying thought-processes. I.e. I think it shows mindsets that are still ruled by uncritical thinking patterns.

Clearly this situation is quite a momentous occurrence. Nothing like this in Sant Mat history since the times of the Sikh gurus. But with the unique twist that at present it does appear that Gurinder is at fault here.

BUT we need to be aware that we only know the little that's been in the news and the recently unsubstantiated accusations from one person. I.e. let's be aware that any current understanding can only be based on trying to read between the lines from what's been slowly coming out, based on our pre-existing loyalties, preconceptions and conceptual biases.

My own speculative guess is that Malvinder feels badly treated by both his brother and by his maternal Uncle (and Guru's successor), Gurinder. I get the feeling Malvinder feels somewhat let down on both fronts — spiritual and business advice. Also, he appears to think his extended family (and his brother) have been trying more to protect Gurinder than to do their legally-required and ethical duty to fulfil their business obligations.
It appears to me at the moment that Gurinder HAS actually been complicit to some extent in fraudulent business policy — whether knowingly or not. And my current guess is that Malvinder feels he has been forced to choose between a.) his own ethical and business principles and to unfairly take the rap for Gurinder's, Shivinder's and Sunil's malpractice OR b.) to put loyalty to the family and their RS guru above everything else.
Which looks like an awful predicament to be in!

That's the gist of my current understanding. But I'm open to being corrected and admitting error as more information becomes available. As I think we ALL should be.

I should ALSO imagine there is some self-justifying 'spin' in Malvinder's accusations to make himself look the innocent victim. That's normal human-nature. So maybe the alleged death threat is open to interpretation, as also the accusation that Shivinder was using financial enticement to get the gaddi. We'll have to wait and see what evidence Malav's got for that.

It is of course also possible that he's throwing everybody else under the bus to save his own skin and reputation. We have only got the news media providing reports on his version of events. We'll have to wait and see.

Whatever, its quite a shocking turn of events. My guess is that Malav's understanding that he was threatened with 'elimination' from Gurinder's lawyer must have been some kind of 'last straw' that broke the camel's back for Malvinder for him to take this step.
I can't imagine the emotional and loyalty turmoil they must all be facing now, both the brother's themselves and poor Nimmi their mother (Charan's daughter). 😞

But obviously there will be other perspectives and 'sides' to this.
E.g. here is an excerpt from another news article
. . . .
"...Dhillon, the spiritual guru, has agreed to record his statement to the investigators — it is clear he will deny the charge — and Sunil Godhwani, who is allegedly at the heart of the financial scandals which have engulfed Fortis Healthcare, says he had no control over movement of funds by the Singh brothers and their promoter-related entities for over two and a half years. In a rare interaction with BTVI, Godhwani further said the complaints against him and Dhillion were nothing but “diversionary tactics by the Singh brothers to avoid paying Rs 3500 crore to Daiichi Sankyo and that the brothers were very much in control of the missing cash”.

Officers of ED, SFIO and EOW have been questioning Godhwani, who told BTVI that he is being framed by the Singh brothers and that he has already offered enough documentary evidences in his defence to the investigators.

Malvinder claimed his brother Shivinder connived with Dhillon to sell these firms to RHC, thus putting more strain on the holding company. Shivinder, in turn, said it was Malvinder who fudged accounts and tampered with office records to steal cash from the company. Malvinder continued his tirade, saying Shivinder wanted to write off the loans as bad debts because he was offered the top seat of Radha Swami Satsang which has millions of followers. Shivinder, in his counter, says Malvinder is responsible for the missing cash."
. . . . .

We outside observers don't know and can't know YET what exactly has occurred, if illegal actions have occurred, and if they have who must take resonsibility for them. Let's wait and see.

As has been observed by people from Socrates to the modern day, the greatest obstacle to advancement in knowledge is not ignorance but is the illusion of knowledge. At this stage we don't know ALL the details.

"The doorstep to the temple of wisdom is awareness of our own ignorance"
-- Benjamin Franklin

@jay
I really don't think any guru spends the travel expenses from their own pocket. If they are travelling on official business for the charity, the charity will pay the costs, including tickets and hotel costs.
Even the speakers in RSSB get paid travel costs

Hi Appreciative R

Certainly no big deal being a satsang speaker, however as you say an opportunity to help get one’s own thoughts together especially if you keep an open mind as I endeavour to do.
In regard to your comment concerning the RSSB line. I also agree that RSSB will continue as a religion - 'a going concern' :-). I was referring to my possibly idealistic notion of a line of ‘Masters’, i.e. folks who focus more on pointing seeker types in the direction of truth, rather than amassing material wealth, property etc.

@Tim yes RSSB will continue to be religious for a very long time I guess. Look at Ram Rahim, even after getting accused for heinous crimes such as rape etc his followers still blindly follow him and trend him on Twitter, India time and again. It is so shocking. People have lost common sense, it is true common sense is very uncommon nowadays.

"Naam khumari Nanaka Chadhi rahe din Raat"

- It was this that each of us was supposed to have achieved or are to achieve for this path was trusted by most of us akin to that of Nanak, Kabir and all perfect Saints. It implied that some of us must have reached this state of eternal bliss after consistent efforts in meditation and sewa while doing same without the objective of seeing or listening inside and in consequence, a few visions and sounds may have appeared but from the testimonies of many who disclosed in this blog series I may conclude these have no lasting effects on them so as to be called some bliss. They were almost same persons internally and have not raised their consciousness.

If any of us or some among satsangis ever or now have achieved such a bliss or has revealed the Master inside he only should defend this materialism kind of thing being taken care of by Saints at some level quite actively or passively without caring about the means and ends. Mere mental acrobatics of faith and love for the Path by some extremely devoted followers/Meditators shall not bring legitimacy to such misplaced acts by the Ones who are in the Guru ghar or even Guru himself.

It is therefore prayed that any of us who has been thorough on the inner path and well versed with it and is in a state of extreme bliss always should help us out. Because the post is confidential and does not reveal identity.

Got this email from the SOS group.

Now you have to pay to see Rajindar Singh. Takes asking for donations to a new level.


Dear friends,

here comes the second very important information about Master's visit in Wiesbaden.

We have a beautiful event hall for our internal get-together with Master as well as the
official program and initiation. It's importnt for us that everyone is able to enjoy the
pleasant atmosphere in Masters presence.

The wonderful venue also helps us a lot to ensure a serious appearance to the public
and to address as many new interested people as possible.

Unfortunately, it is now customary for the costs incurred for hall rental and technical
equipment to be paid in advance. It would therefore be a great help if you could support
us with a donation right now.

We assume that we need an average amount of 100 Euro per Satsangi for both days of the
event to cover all costs for the venue. In addition, there are some more costs for
advertising and public relations.

Almost three years have passed since Master's last visit to Germany at Easter 2016. Now,
with his visit to Wiesbaden, comes a particularly important opportunity for financial Seva.
We would be very grateful if you would seize this opportunity. We appreciate any financial
support, no matter how small it may seem.

Your contribution does much more than just finance an event. He also makes it possible for
new interested people to find a spiritual home in these difficult times and enrich their lives.

Actually I just read it properly, it’s not a compulsory ticket price but it is pretty up front in asking for financial seva.

I have never seen RSSB do that.

Hi Chris!
Hope your day is going well.
You asked
" you wrote of “...legal documents describing Gurinder's sale of the charitable hospital to himself, after he had contracted with a construction firm on behalf of the Sangat to rebuild it at cost, then oblige the construction firm to build it for the for-profit Fortis, after having sold it to them...”
and of “...Gurindar 's own letter, attempting to escape his debts, gained thrift fraudulent loans...”
Is that available to see online somewhere?

Yes it is.

First, the news article which reveals the sale of the Charitable Hospital to his own personally owned holding company, run by his son, and then the sale to Fortis, as well as the manipulation of the contractor is detailed in the contractor's testimony...a legal document.

Then there are the other articles detailing the shell corporation arrangements discovered by the auditors at Fortis. Here for your reading from a prior comment posted here on September 19th:

Just to provide easy access to the facts, here is a summary and links to the evidence

Gurindar sold an RSSB charitable hospital, and all its acreage, to himself, into his private equity company, RHC, run by his son.

https://www.cnbctv18.com/views/the-devotion-of-the-singh-brothers-of-fortis-runs-deep-into-their-businesses-63575.htm

And in this legal document, where a construction company is suing RSSB and Fortis, it is confirmed.

https://indiankanoon.org/doc/87320658/


Worse, we learn that the contractor was hired to build a new RSSB hospital to replace the old one. But once the old hospital was demolished, Gurindar, through RSSB, sold those 200 acres of property to his private for-profit firm, Fortis, and build a specialty hospital, not a charitable hospital. There were no community or public hearings about this. The contractor who sued RSSB claimed this switch was done "in a clandestine manner."


And we read of the myriad companies Gurindar has placed family members, including his wife, into principle roles, siphoning illegal loans from Fortis into these through the Singhs.


Here's some additional links to some of the stories in the business press:

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/features/2018-08-16/billionaires-and-the-guru-how-an-indian-family-lost-2-billion

https://www.businesstoday.in/magazine/the-hub/the-baba-singh-brothers-and-the-squandered-rs-225000000000/story/281437.html

And here from Economic Times of Inda

http://hinessight.blogs.com/files/singh-brothers-story.pdf

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