Another story about Gurinder Singh Dhillon's financial wrongdoing

It's another day, with another story in the Indian financial press about the Dhillon family's involvement in financial deals that are almost certainly illegal, and absolutely certainly unethical. 

Read the Live Mint story, "Fortis fraud may exceed ₹2,000 crore, says SFIO." Excerpts below:
Download Fortis fraud may exceed ₹2 000 crore says SFIO

New Delhi/Mumbai: The alleged funds diversion at Fortis Healthcare Ltd could add up to more than ₹2,000 crore, according to the trail of funds uncovered by the Serious Fraud Investigation Office (SFIO), a government official said.

The Securities and Exchange Board of India (Sebi), too, suspects that the total size of the Fortis fraud could be much higher than the ₹403 crore it originally estimated, a second person familiar with the development said, requesting anonymity.

Sebi has already passed an order against Fortis to recover ₹500 crore from the Singh brothers for funds diverted to the promoter and promoter-related entities in December.

“At the heart of the alleged fund diversion is Gurinder Singh Dhillon, head of Radha Soami Satsang Beas, and Sanjay Godhwani, a former associate of Malvinder and Shivinder Singh. Six promoter-related companies were used to effect the funds diversion," the first person cited above said on condition of anonymity.

Some of these facts also emerged from the complaint filed by Malvinder Singh with the Economic Offences Wing in Delhi and findings by SFIO. These depict a dark picture of a series of transactions between RHC Holding Pvt. Ltd, the holding company promoted by brothers Malvinder and Shivinder Singh, wherein RHC extended loans worth ₹5,482 crore to Dhillon family members, their associates or entities controlled by them.

...The twist in the tale came when Dhillon sought to discharge himself from the said liabilities, asking the Singh brothers to sign a family settlement that would encompass no legal proceedings or criminality in any circumstance against him.

According to the proposed settlement, Shivinder Singh was offered a position to head the Radha Soami Satsang Beas sect—one that Dhillon would abdicate. In return, the Singh brothers were to write off these loans as bad debt.

While Shivinder agreed to the deal, Malvinder did not, the latter said in the complaint.

In his complaint filed with the Economic Offences Wing against his brother, the Dhillon family and Sunil and Sanjay Godhwani, Malvinder Singh alleged misappropriation of company funds and sought ₹8,742 crore in compensation.

...“It is clear that Dhillon, in the garb of providing spiritual guidance, had gained complete trust and…amassed wealth from the financial facilities extended to the Dhillon family. The true extent of the fraud has not come to light as the entities are tightly controlled by the accused and requires a thorough investigation," Malvinder Singh alleged in the complaint.

This should further destroy the reputation of Gurinder Singh Dhillon, the guru of Radha Soami Satsang Beas, as a "perfect living master."

Actually, he isn't even at the level of a normally imperfect human being. It's outrageous that Gurinder Singh would sell his position as RSSB guru to Shivinder Singh in exchange for being forgiven the massive amount of money owed to companies once controlled by Shivinder and his brother Malvinder, who are Gurinder Singh's cousins.

What kind of a supposedly "spiritual" guru is willing to do this? Only a hugely greedy one.

Most ordinary people have a conscience, scruples, a line they won't cross. But Gurinder Singh has made death threats against Malvinder Singh, and offered up his position as guru for a lot of money.

I'll have more to say about this in another blog post, since every follower of Radha Soami Satsang Beas should consider it morally unacceptable that the RSSB guru looks upon his position as something to be bought and sold rather than as the priceless spiritual legacy the RSSB teachings make it out to be.

Comments

[Spence Tepper]

"I'll have more to say about this in another blog post, since every follower of Radha Soami Satsang Beas should consider it morally unacceptable that the RSSB guru looks upon his position as something to be bought and sold rather than as the priceless spiritual legacy the RSSB teachings make it out to be."

You are being very hard on us, Brian.

[Brian Hines]

Spence, so you think it is OK for Gurinder Singh to sell his guru-ship to Shivinder Singh in exchange for forgiving the debt the guru owes to Shivinder? Doesn't this make a mockery of the whole "perfect living guru" thing?

[Spence Tepper]

Yes Brian, it does.

[s*]

Hi Spence and Brian,
Spence what do you mean by “you are being hard on us Brian?”

It is totaly strange this whole money game thing.
How is this all possible?
Malvinder the eldest is not agreeing with the composition and that seems logical to me..
Only the fact it is all about money,”money is the dirth of my hands”(maharaji Charan Singh.)
The harmony in the family is most important!!
It is gone because of lots of things as we all know now!
It is all very sad for everyone here:( involved..

[Dungeness]

Actually, he isn't even at the level of a normally imperfect human being. It's outrageous that Gurinder Singh would sell his position as RSSB guru to Shivinder Singh in exchange for being forgiven the massive amount of money owed to companies once controlled by Shivinder and his brother Malvinder, who are Gurinder Singh's cousins.

You forgot to preface this with "If charges are proven". The
case is under investigation including the alleged sale of the
RSSB "Guruship".

[Brian Hines]

Spence, i wondered if you had asked a sort of rhetorical question in your comment, when you said, "You are being very hard on us, Brian." Meaning, you agreed that what Gurinder Singh did was wrong -- which does now seem to be what you meant. Given your previous statements about the guru's financial misdeeds, I sort of figured as much, but wanted to be sure.

[Spence Tepper]

Brian, you were right long before any of this came out.
But that doesn't make it hurt less.

'"Four sentences summarizing the lessons of History"
1. Whom the gods would destroy, they first make mad with power.
2. The mills of God grind slowly, but they grind exceedingly small.
3. The bee fertilizes the flower it robs.
4. When it is dark enough, you can see the stars."
Charles A. Beard

[Ari]

I wonder how this can be explained away by the faithful. RSSB friends of mine said, before these new revelations, that just because the Singh brothers are GSD’s family, it doesn’t mean that they don’t have their own karma to go through. Those same friends are at the Dera right now. Probably an interesting time to be there. I feel sorry for all those that will be devastated by this news.

[Gurinder is my guru]

This is all rubbish. my guru would never do anything wrong.
yes he is also a businessman and in business there are losses and profits. Malvinder is bitter because he made some big mistakes and lost his pledged shares to the bank and now he is trying to blame baba gurinder for his own mistakes.
Whatever money he gave to gurinder it was his decision. there was no gun held to his head.
gurinder did not steal this money. it was given as a business deal. malvonder must also have had some benefit from it otherwise he would not hand over money like that.
he has already lost all his money and now he wants revenge.

you can's say he is innocent. he is the most guilty person in all this. he agreed to do business with gurinder.
whatever money gurinder was given must be part of some business deal, not free money. so he will need to explain to shareholders why he gave that money. gurinder did not rob the company. the money was voluntarily handed over.

[Spence Tepper]

It is Gurinder 's own letter, own admission, that indicts him.
He received illegal loans from a public company.

The executives who gave him those loans were fired.

Now Gurindar expects them to take all the blame for those loans he himself cannot repay. What kind of secret agreement is that?

No true Sat Guru would expect anyone else to take responsibility for their own debts. Every Sat Guru takes full responsibility for their financial obligations.

In defense of the guru, who is not a Guru, we must make justifications and excuses. That is natural. We love the Guru.

But doing this, creating reasons and justifications, saying "It's just business" we are lowering the bar of right conduct, accepting illegal and unethical business practice as the moral standard of spirituality.

This is the real crime that Gurindar is commuting. Because he can see for himself that those who live him will compromise these high values and make excuses for fraud.

It is one thing for Gurindar to engage in unethical practices and fraud. And then to acknowledge those crimes with b full responsibility and apology. But by not taking full responsibility for his fall, by expecting others to do so for him, he drags his lovers down with him, and destroys Radha Soami Satsang Beas.

RSSB is not a common business. It was never supposed to operate upon the slippery ethics, insider trading, and fraud common in the investment world.

So his biggest crime was not the fraud. It's the corruption of the Satsangis who live him and in that love mistakenly lower their own ethics of Spirituality and leading a clean moral life.

That is the greater crime.

[Jen]

Brian, you're really getting off on this. Obviously its clickbait but why such a gleeful venomous attitude? You no longer belong to this group so why should you care, its none of your business, people are allowed to believe in whatever they want to.

Quote Brian: "Preachiness, fundamentalism, dogmatism... not welcome on this blog"

I did find your hissy fit quite amusing but it does show how entitled you feel to preach to others and just how little you care about their feelings. Many people in India are living a very different lifestyle to yours, some are very poor and living in difficult circumstances and if believing in a guru helps them its not for some spoilt, indulgent American to criticise their guru and his family. Do atheists give free food to the poor and hungry?

[Gurinder is my guru]

the guru has special powers and is not ordinary man like us.

he has no karma and comes just to take real disciples back to sach khand.

all this just shows how fake malvinder is.

when all was well he did business with gurinder. when losses come he wants to blame him.

who gave the loans? gurinder did not just take the money. it was given.

he is not a robber or a thief. whoever gave that money must have had a reason.
a business deal.

a business deal is not a crime.

and now this is a test to see who really loves gurinder and who just says the words

[Spence Tepper]

Hi Jen
Brian is a little harsh. A flame can burn. But it also illuminates.

I love Gurindar. He has been a great teacher of love, kindness and responsibility.

So long as we understand that he has his own shortcomings, and is not a true spiritual leader, but instead, a sincere but flawed follower, then that is just being honest and does not take away from spirituality, nor his charity and contribution.

But by avoiding full responsibility for his actions, he continues to place himself in a role that he no longer fills, and when people make excuses for him, they lower their own ethics. They no longer love the truth.

So I think it's OK, and healthy, to love Gurindar as our good friend, our good teacher for many decades, who fell. We want to help our friends when they fall to get back up again.

But it requires that they understand and acknowledge their fall. They must participate in their own repentance and rehabilitation. And because so many refer to Him as the standard of truth, he must place himself honestly beneath that standard in order to protect it.

But no line of teachers of truth last forever. This one is destined to end. And if Baba Ji is destined to do a little time in jail, maybe just house arrest, nothing can change that. We should except it and do what we can to make the transition as least disruptive at possible. It starts with accepting the truth.

This doesn't make Gurindar any worse than you or I. But no better.

[Spence Tepper]

The true Guru does have great powers.
But we do not.
And unless we are claiming as much, we have to admit we can be wrong.

Any spiritual path that gives the followers the false impression that they can't be wrong, because their teacher is perfect, is building on a foundation of ego, not humility.

The true Guru, the Sat Guru, is a model for how to live rightly. They never take money on the basis of their role and authority as a Guru, but only on their own hard work. They never take illegal loans, and they never expect others to take responsibility for their own poor decisions.

He is not a Sat Guru. And if we are clinging to that to protect our own illusion of perfection, then the sooner that false notion is destroyed, the sooner we get back onto our own journey towards truth.

In this destruction of the false Brian acts rightly.

[seeker]

@Spence Tepper
Do you know who a true guru is? It is your own self. You do not need anyone outside to be your true guru because that person cannot be a true guru for anyone. I do not understand why do people start following a certain person like a God if he/she is sharing some spiritual knowledge? Do we start following our teachers and professors for the knowledge we get from them during our school/college in the same way? No, right?

Spiritual knowledge is required for people who seek for it, if a person is giving that knowledge from his/her own experience that does not mean that person becomes God. God is just sound and light. A true guru is light and sound within you. But we people are so fearful, we constantly need someone to lean on, and because of this people start taking advantage in the name of religion/spirituality.

[Dungeness]

It is Gurinder 's own letter, own admission, that indicts him. He
received illegal loans from a public company. The executives
who gave him those loans were fired. Now Gurindar expects
them to take all the blame for those loans he himself cannot
repay.
No true Sat Guru would expect anyone else to take responsibility
for their own debts. Every Sat Guru takes full responsibility for their
financial obligations.

As mentioned earlier GSD ends the letter (secret agreement?)
to Mal/Shivinder with:

The amicable way forward is to reverse all the decisions
and revert all the properties back to us with a list of the
liabilities and we can work to settle the accounts.

Forgive my confusion, but that sounds as if Gurinder is
offering a way forward to collectively resolve liabilities
after dissolving the private agreements. It seems more
transparent and strategic to end the in-fighting as well.

Do you view "work to settle the accounts" differently?
Subterfuge of some kind? Also, there were several
other key players in the drama weren't there?

Do you know if others in Gurinder's orbit were advising
him or had fiduciary roles who may approved loans and
assured GSD of their propriety? Maybe his direct family
members?

Why is there a rush to accuse GSD of orchestrating all of
it? Of corrupting satsangis. It's almost if there was an
expectation he'd use super-powers to quash negative
news stories or micro-manage subordinates. Why not
affirm the orderly, careful, deliberative flow of the courts
to examine the evidence and render a verdict?

[Nick B]

Now the shit has hit the fan it is interesting to look at the impact, both on believers of all shades and sceptics/former believers. No smoke without fire as the saying goes. At best it is a case of insider trading and reckless large scale financial meddling in stocks/loans on a huge scale. At worst it really is ethical and legal criminality involving fraud, intimidation and threats.
Either scenario is not very good if you are still at all involved in RSSB, or even have any feelings at all for GSD.
Obviously it is completely okay if someone wishes to maintain their feelings for him, despite the mounting evidence. However, it would be far more severe a ‘test of faith’ for believers with the latter scenario. However, even then I can imagine that committed faithful would find a way to fudge and bludge though the issues and maintain their theologically based beliefs.
Don’t get me wrong; I am a big admirer of ‘rogue gurus’ who buck religious piety and smug righteousness, like Gurdfieff, Osho, Crowley, Da Free John. Only trouble is that people get hurt around these characters. Just as some are going to get hurt around GSD by all this; especially if scenario 2 plays out.
I feel the hurt some must be feeling along with disappointment. But it really flags the danger of buying in emotionally and intellectually to an experimental spiritual technique that has deteriorated into a cult. With the Gurus fall you are setting yourself up for a fall.
Further flags the danger of faith based responses to life issues. People can be intransigent even if they are scientists in the face of new evidence. The difference is however that you are more or less compelled to go with and adjust to the new evidence on offer and revise your hypothesis accordingly. Time and unravelling of events will tell if this proves to be the case for many or any satsangi believers no matter where they are on the scale of orthodox or unconventional.

[Gurinder is my guru]

nobody knows the truth. everyone is guessing.

everyone, including a guru, bends the truth and does "fiddles" a little here and there. It is normal.
it would be impossible to live in the world otherwise.

especially a businessman. Business is mostly lies. Gurinder is a businessman and is surrounded by liars. it is the only way business works.

malvinder was obviously a party to whatever "wrong" he claims Gurinder did.

normally these things never come out because everyone is covering their own back also.

but malvinder has lost everything and doesnt care anymore - so he can spill the beans and make any accusations he wants to.

the rest is taken care of the people on this site and the "no smoke without fire" saying.

so without a trial or any evidence, everyone decides that gurinder is guilty.

but only he and some insiders know the real story.

everyone is just jumping to conclusions without all the facts. the newspaper is not a court of law and deals with opinions as they want to sell newspapers and have to create sensation

[Appreciative Reader]

I'd raised this point in the other thread also, and I'll raise this again here. The part where Shivinder is apparently trying to buy his way into Guru-dom, that is something I truly don't get.

We have two options:

1) He's truly GIHF-to-be. In which case there's no need for him to buy his way through. He is, to plagiarize from an older fairy tale than RSSB's, who he is.

2) He's just a pretender, in which case:

2(a) He wants to be Guru so he can bilk the sheeple. Nope, doesn't make sense, because he was already plenty rich to begin with, and in any case he's actually spending a huge fortune to get there. Doesn't make sense.

2(b) Like the other sheeple, he too is a dupe. Again, that makes no sense. A dupe might follow the Guru, but surely the dupe won't try to actually become the Guru, because there ends the charade. The moment he become Guru, there's no more scope for self-delusion.

So, what? What goes under #2(c), or perhaps a wholly separate category #3? Why is this man trying to bribe his way through to Guru-dom? Or isn't he, after all?

[Juan]

Why is this man trying to bribe his way through to Guru-dom? Or isn't he, after all?

Maybe it is not a bribe. It could be the price for such a big Empire which could be worth much more than all the money involved in this scandal and further this business is always profitable.

Is it not a wise decision for a family member or close friend to recover his debts which could be otherwise bad debts to accept something in return?

Would everybody like to follow the herd, or some would like to lead the herd?

[Nick B]

It doesn’t ultimately surprise me that financial scandal has hit RSSB and GSD. When you see the largesse of the Guru’s property on the Haynes Park estate in England and the huge cars surrounding it you do start to feel uncomfortable about the ‘fit’ between spiritual simplicity and material showiness. There is obviously a heck of a lot of patriarchal power-plays at work so the next step to insider deals and financial favours is obvious.
The Guru’s original house burned down following a lightning strike. The local joke was it was Divine displeasure!
The house was rebuilt from GSD’s own funds. Friends tell me they saw up to 12 50inch plasma screen TV boxes outside after the new house was furnished. Just who exactly needs that many TV’s? Just exactly where did any material simplicity and focus on inner peace get lost? Or am I just misreading all of this?
Don’t think we should just expect a Guru to live in voluntary simplicity or even in ascetic austerity. However, the financial scandal that has hit seems to move beyond just simple provision for family future wellbeing by yielding maximum returns on investments. It looks and feels like rogue trader gamesmanship on a large scale; playing fast and loose with other people’s money for as much material gain as possible.
Now there is a counter current in spiritual teachings a la Gurdjieff, who thought that only if you could support significant numbers of dependents by your own financial initiative would you then be able to have the mettle to teach people spiritually.
Interesting argument, but the RSSB Guru’s financial game playing doesn’t sound like this. Must say this whole thing has totally disillusioned me regards the RSSB and its whole organisation.
No matter which way you play this and try and interpret it, the whole thing just stinks. I still wonder though whether it will permeate the dense thought carapace of many ‘believers’. No the Guru hasn’t been convicted of any wrong doing or even investigated for it, but just what is he doing messing around in such financial games for in the first place. Games that go way beyond being able to more than comfortably provide for a family and extended dependents?
For the record I don’t take any pleasure in any of this, but the time to just sit back and uncritically accept this bs is way past!

[pj2000]

Brian has always had the approach of Guilty without trial for GSD. Brian has had his own run ins with the LAW which he was found in the wrong in his hometown in the state of Oregon. GSD showed Brian the door and he cant handle that. He tells us that he left...but I was told by many that he was shown the door because of things that cannot be repeated here.

[pj2000]

https://katu.com/news/local/blogger-accuses-salem-city-councilor-of-retaliation-state-says-blogger-broke-law

[Brian Hines]

pj2000, yes, you used Google to find my big "crime" -- spending $950 on using Facebook ads/boosts to support some candidates in Salem City Council elections when the limit for this was $750 without filing a campaign finance report. As the KATU story says, I wasn't aware of this rule when I made the contributions.

https://katu.com/news/local/blogger-accuses-salem-city-councilor-of-retaliation-state-says-blogger-broke-law

Regarding why I left RSSB, the truth is that I was fired as a satsang speaker in 2005 and was told this was because my blog posts were making some people uncomfortable. I wrote about this in a blog post, naturally:

https://hinessight.blogs.com/church_of_the_churchless/2005/10/ive_been_fired.html

I've also written about how I was criticizing RSSB before I was fired as satsang speaker. Which makes sense, since as I just noted, the reason I was fired was that my blog posts were upsetting people. It wasn't the other way around -- that I started writing critical blog posts after being fired. The dates of my blog posts confirm this:

https://hinessight.blogs.com/church_of_the_churchless/2018/09/heres-the-truth-about-why-i-started-criticizing-rssb.html

Also, keep in mind that I don't claim to be a "perfect living blogger." I'm very much human (as if I had a choice). I make mistakes. I try to learn from my errors. I struggle with life's challenges, as we all do.

I get happy. I become depressed. I feel optimistic. I turn pessimistic. I've meditated every day for about fifty years, but I still don't feel like I know my own mind as well as I want to.

[Jen]

@ Spence,

My idea of living on this planet is that we are all spiritual beings experiencing a human life and I think we have to do the very best we can in our actions and not judge and condemn others. After all everyone will experience justice after we die and reap the rewards or punishment accordingly. I woke up to Sant Mat and have left the path and follow my own way now but I don't have any bad feelings or regrets because I take responsibility for my own actions and beliefs. Forgiveness is important.

[Vinny]

If the disciple is hungry the so called gurus will not give their food to him because these gurus have same limitations as any other human being. If they had any power these gurus would not beg from disciples by donation boxes. Modern scientists have more ethical, moral and actual power than these gurus if atom bomb is dropped everyone including these gurus will die in that carpet area

[Sarah]

Brian, thanks again for your ongoing commitment and search for truth. This forum allows those in RSSB who have had negative experiences to do a sanity check—to realize they’re not alone.

Spence, really appreciate your grounded and thoughtful remarks. You are very forgiving. I try to be... I believe in forgiveness but I also recognize that for every major act of selfishness by a powerful leader there are usually numerous other smaller acts of selfishness that profoundly affect others on a level that doesn’t make headlines. For me, this is getting to be a character issue. And although I would pray for GSD the same as I’d pray for Trump, I’m not ignorant to the fact that these types of people have hurt people on many, many levels. It’s the core nature of narcissistic sociopaths.

I know that is harsh. When I say I forgive, I just mean I wouldn’t condemn them to “hell” or many future lives of suffering in order to pay back their “karmas”.

I imagine most people won’t agree with this, but I put GSD in the same category as Trump. And I pray for their souls. But these people need to be contained.

Can’t help but wonder, though, how much political clout GSD actually has that could potentially get him out of this whole mess without going to jail or being put under house arrest or facing huge law suits.

[Jen]

Gurinder is human with faults like all of us and he probably is playing his designated role to the best of his ability.

Didn't someone mention how he has changed the path and speaks about Oneness now, also, that at times he seems quite depressed.

Also that he has told people not to put him on a pedestal, and that there is no such thing as a perfect master and he will not come at death (paraphrasing).

.....

"Your relationships with others are your opportunity to experience yourself and grow. They are a perfect mirror of your inner relationship with yourself and the beliefs you have acquired about life and love. Everything you admire in another person belongs to you and the same goes for all that which you dislike."

From: Mind Your Reality
Everyone is Your Mirror - The Greatest Relationship Secret

[Spence Tepper]

"Oops. I made a mistake."
These are not bad words. They are not hateful.
They are good words, and everyone should learn them. Because human beings make mistakes, and sometimes that hurts others.

So we should all learn and use them sincerely, with every effort to take responsibly for whatever harm we have accidentally caused.

But if someone has trouble with those words, we should help them, not make excuses for them.

[Spence Tepper]

Hi Sarah
All is forgiven.
Baba Ji's jail time / house arrest is as much a fact as the thefts at Fortis.
What can I say?
It's not an issue of blame.
No one is at fault.
Baba Ji is not a Sat Guru. But he is, from his perspective, a sincere and spiritual person. And his wisdom is great. I've retired upon his wisdom for decades and honor his spiritual achievements.
But every day v we make a decision how to use our spiritual wealth. Why trade diamonds for glass? Is that is v the conditioning, the past, it can't be helped. We have all fallen many times.
When you throw a large stone into a pond you get large ripples. And they persist long after the stone has submerged and is long in the invisible past.
The fraud happened. As it was going to happen.
Baba Ji participated. The jail time also already happened, if you can see this in its whole, without reference to this particular point of time.
No need to blame anyone. No need to fear what the courts will decide. What happened has happened. Including the future. The frauds, the feuds, the secret deals, the courts, the time in jail, the fall of the Dera, It's already done.

[Jen]

Hi Spence,

I don't think it is all that important to look at our mistakes. Sure, we can accept that we are imperfect but becoming aware of who we really are is a constant practice of awareness of our thoughts, emotions, actions. Is it even possible to not hurt another person's feelings, especially when they have opposite perspectives. How can we be true to ourselves if we cannot express who and what we are.

I prefer to think positively and try to have faith in myself, that I am always learning, watching my thoughts, making an effort to be more positive than negative.

Its an ongoing task and I know that I am a very different type of person than I used to be. I was very insecure, frightened, shy, nervous, suffered from an inferiority complex, had no sense of self and this is why I felt the need to follow a Master. Now I realise that what I imagined that I saw in the Master was what I wanted to be.

So my path then took off in other directions of learning about how to have a positive sense of self. Its taken years and my practice and is still ongoing. As you know I look for positive thinking quotes which help me in connecting with my own inner being.

We are all powerful beings, and its not about ego, its the inner spiritual energy that slowly gives us comfort and strength to keep on keeping on doing the best we can.

[Spence Tepper]

Hi Jen
You wrote
"We are all powerful beings, and its not about ego, its the inner spiritual energy that slowly gives us comfort and strength to keep on keeping on doing the best we can."

Yes. Truly this is what really matters.

[s*]

Most satsangs were/are about transmigration.
That I find not positive.
There are judgments in it and warnings and fear.
Most satsangis think that only their guru could save them..
That is not good and no fun.
No fun at all.

[Guru]

@Brian did you leave rssb because you were fired from speakership or because you realised your values are different to what rssb was preaching? Lets leave gurinder aside for a bit(i know attacking him is your favourite pass time amd mantra for the rest of your life) lets just talk about you and the main reason you left rssb. Please give an elaborate answer if you dont mind. Thank you Sir Brian! I will call you Sir because you have rssb & gurinder haters here which makes you a leader in my eyes! Perhaps you should start your own path which can lead to a better place than rssb is claiming to take their followers :-)

[Appreciative Reader]

"I will call you Sir because you have rssb & gurinder haters here "

No doubt there are a few here who might be "haters", with their own axe to grind, but you know what, Guru, in the years I've spent here, I'd say by far the majority of people here, at least those who comment, are either 'lovers' as opposed to "haters" -- that is, devotees, or ex-devotees who still have a soft spot for RSSB -- as well as out-and-out rationalists, with no bias, neither positive nor negative. "Haters" would definitely be a minority, at least in my experience.

But you can call Brian Sir Brian, or Lord Brian, or even Your Majesty or Reverend or Your Grace, whatever pleases you! :--)

People have called him far worse, without any retaliation or censoring from this gentle tolerant soul.

[NickB]

This is an upsetting and disturbing time. I find it all deeply saddening. The Sangat needs to gird up its loins and begin considering what a mature, responsible and ultimately truthful response might look like for each and every one still with any sort of involvement with RSSB (albeit some moving away from it). A lot of people are going to be hurt by this no matter which way it goes.
If worst case scenario (proven criminality) pans out then it will be very testing for a great many of the sangat.
Best case scenario (ethical culpability no criminality) would be less hard to bear but still hard.
I want to thank Spence and Jen for being such moderate and kind hearted voices in all this. Your comments are so well considered and couched that I am very grateful for them to help navigate through this unfolding mess.
One comment by Spence I find particularly revealing. That is where members of the sangat are going to (already are) feel compelled to morally compromise their ethical and philosophical response to all this out of loyalty and love. That is lower their own feeling response to try and justify/excuse/dodge/evade/deny/attack/retreat. This is sad. Best thing that could happen is GSD comes clean and clear and so stems the ‘need’ for this to happen.
Ironically GSD is acting as an ‘inverse’ Guru. The message being, ‘Don’t follow me and don’t behave like me or things like this happen’.
Like you Spence I feel a certain bond to GSD, though for me this feels like a relationship breakdown with him to some extent.

[Guru]

@Appreciative many thanks for your view. I will wait for Brian to respond to my question. I just need to understand what made him go away from rssb. Was it values or because he was sacked from speakership.

[Brian Hines]

Guru, yesterday I left a comment on this post where I responded to someone else with the same question. I don't know why some people are so obsessed with why I left RSSB, but, hey, I like the attention. Here's what I said on this subject in the other comment:
---------------------------
Regarding why I left RSSB, the truth is that I was fired as a satsang speaker in 2005 and was told this was because my blog posts were making some people uncomfortable. I wrote about this in a blog post, naturally:
https://hinessight.blogs.com/church_of_the_churchless/2005/10/ive_been_fired.html

I've also written about how I was criticizing RSSB before I was fired as satsang speaker. Which makes sense, since as I just noted, the reason I was fired was that my blog posts were upsetting people. It wasn't the other way around -- that I started writing critical blog posts after being fired. The dates of my blog posts confirm this:

https://hinessight.blogs.com/church_of_the_churchless/2018/09/heres-the-truth-about-why-i-started-criticizing-rssb.html

Also, keep in mind that I don't claim to be a "perfect living blogger." I'm very much human (as if I had a choice). I make mistakes. I try to learn from my errors. I struggle with life's challenges, as we all do. I get happy. I become depressed. I feel optimistic. I turn pessimistic. I've meditated every day for about fifty years, but I still don't feel like I know my own mind as well as I want to.
----------------------------
I'll add a 2005 blog post that explains how writing a book about the Greek philosopher Plotinus caused me to look upon RSSB in a different way:

https://hinessight.blogs.com/church_of_the_churchless/2005/11/how_writing_a_b.html

And here's a recent post about how my views about Greek philosophy, and the book I wrote, have also changed. Change is the way of the world. Change is to be embraced, not feared.

https://hinessight.blogs.com/church_of_the_churchless/2018/01/im-pleased-that-my-ideas-about-god-have-changed.html

[Jen]

No-one is perfect, we are all here to learn about who and what we are.

Its fascinating to see how Gurinder has changed the teachings and yes, my heart goes out to him, what a strange and difficult role he has to play...

This is a review of Radhasoami Beas Secret History

http://radhasoamis.freeyellow.com/
..........................
These are links to Gurinder Changes The Teachings 1, 2 and 3

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fm2eweEr_50

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w_bkH0qq7LA

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z1SopPyvgs0
..........................

Thank you Osho Robbins !!

[Sarah]

Spence, thanks for your words of wisdom. I agree with your approach and Jen's as well... in general. But right now it feels like we're cleaning up an overflow of sewage. I can't ignore the stench and pretend it's not there until it is cleaned up. So, I do have strong opinions about this. If my neighborhood had a sewage flowing down the streets, I wouldn't say "well it's doing its best. It means well... it didn't mean to flow out of the pipes." What I'm saying is (yes, I'm sure the sewage leaking from pipes doesn't even know what it's doing) but it cannot be ignored. It has to be cleaned. You can't ignore the effect it will have on your health and the health of those in your community. It has to be cleaned up... because it is sh*t. Literally.

I am worried for Malvinder. I'm sad that he is going through this impossible mental, financial, spiritual and emotional hell. I am also sad that thousands of other people have been affected by this as well.

A spiritual teacher or guru or priest is required to say encouraging, uplifting, words of wisdom. It is in the job title. Priests who molest children get in front of the church and preach from the Bible. It isn't anything special at all and it doesn't count for ANYTHING when they go around abusing people on a profound level. Every good thing that GSD has said and done... well, damn, it is literally HIS JOB.

So, until the sewage is cleaned up and the leak is fixed I am very concerned for everyone affected. This situation is very grave. It will be dealt with. But I can assure you many people have suffered extreme emotional and spiritual pain because GSD is in love with himself... not anyone else.

It's sad. It's just very, very sad. And if he had a conscience then I would feel really sorry for him but I don't know what sociopaths feel. I don't know if they even understand how much they hurt others. It's like something is just disconnected...

Now, I'm just going to sit back and wait for the backlash... but I firmly believe he is a narcissistic sociopath.

[Guru]

@Brian my mistake i asked you to be elaborate lol. Can you please reply in one sentence? did you leave rssb because you were fired from speakership or because you realised your values are different to what rssb was preaching? I understand the reason you were fired and thinking about it why would you want to preach something you criticise anyway so I think you would have resigned anyway!

[Guru]

Apologies but I find Osho Robbins more of a comedian the way he is explaining spritual aspects intellectually lol but hey if it helps smart people understand reality then lets say it is entertaining! Osho robbins do you get paid to do all these videos or you are trying to help humanity so that they can enjoy life rather than following principles?

[Marko]

Guru i think that Osho Robbins is quite a knowledgeable man and is definitely not a comedian when talking about inner development. As far as i know he had very strong oneness experience and for me it is always nice to read his approach. But to each their own

[Spence Tepper]

Hi Sarah
You wrote
"
. But right now it feels like we're cleaning up an overflow of sewage. I can't ignore the stench and pretend it's not there until it is cleaned up. So, I do have strong opinions about this. If my neighborhood had a sewage flowing down the streets, I wouldn't say "well it's doing its best. It means well... it didn't mean to flow out of the pipes." What I'm saying is (yes, I'm sure the sewage leaking from pipes doesn't even know what it's doing) but it cannot be ignored. It has to be cleaned. You can't ignore the effect it will have on your health and the health of those in your community. It has to be cleaned up... because it is sh*t. Literally."

1. OMG Sarah. You nailed it.
2. This whole creation is a sewer

3. To quote Jen "We are all powerful beings, and its not about ego, its the inner spiritual energy that slowly gives us comfort and strength to keep on keeping on doing the best we can."

[Jen]

Hi Sarah,

I can understand how you feel, I've been there as well, disappointed in the Sant Mat path and it takes time to recover and now I am actually grateful that I have realised there is no need to follow another.

We are strong spiritual beings in our own right, difficult words to say because then the old 'ego' bashing comes forth. We can learn from others and then move on. Its very invigorating in many ways, discovering who and what we are, watching our thoughts, changing our words from negative to positive.

Its a constant battle with the mind but there are many small victories on the way, when suddenly a feeling of peace and even bliss appears, then we know we are on the right path. Our very own path.

[Osho Robbins]

@guru
You asked;
" Osho robbins do you get paid to do all these videos or you are trying to help humanity so that they can enjoy life rather than following principles?"

I get paid £5000 per video. Not bad work if you can get it, even if it means being called a comedian. Thanks for the compliment.

I did these videos quite a while ago.

Maybe it's time for some new ones

[Guru]

@Osho Robbins wow no wonder you do so many videos as £5000 per video is top dollar for this kind of content! I was under the wrong impression you do this for.some other reason! But yeah your presentation is indeed funny but that's again good as at least the funny aspect of it helps some people go through the whole video! Eagerly waiting for your next video :-)

[Guru]

Brian my mistake i asked you to be elaborate lol. Can you please reply in one sentence? did you leave rssb because you were fired from speakership or because you realised your values are different to what rssb was preaching? I understand the reason you were fired and thinking about it why would you want to preach something you criticise anyway so I think you would have resigned anyway!

[JS]

The point(s) I find most confusing are;
- Shouldn't a holy man of any sort be focussing his energies on helping people, not helping himself to dodgy financial deals?
- Shouldn't a holy man ensure, above all else, that his repoutation remains whiter than white, beyond any reproach?
- Why on Earth does a holy man feel the need to be so, so welthy? Doesn't this go against his/RSSB's own teachings of a simple, immaterial life?
- Why are RSSB followers so detached from reality when discussing/defending this holy man's financial affairs? The facts speak for themselves. Byond this, if what is being speculated now turns out to be true, that will be catastrophic for the whole RSSB system however, just the facts at the moment completely undermine Gurinder Dhillon's position