Another RSSB defender attacks the messenger, me

This blog has been alive and well since 2004. That's 15 years of talking truth to religious power here at the Church of the Churchless.

After over 4 million page views, 2,526 posts, and 42,239 comments, I'm well aware of the games religious believers play when their cherished faith comes in for criticism. One of their favorite ploys is to attack the messenger when the message being shared is so convincing, they have no effective response to my truth-telling.

Recent case in point: commenter Chris.

He's been doing his best to defend the Radha Soami Satsang Beas guru, Gurinder Singh Dhillon, against a criminal complaint filed by his cousin, Malvinder Singh, alleging that Dhillon, his family, and close associates have fraudulently siphoned off hundreds of millions of dollars from companies once managed by Malvinder and his brother Shivinder, who reportedly aided and abetted in the financial theft in exchange for a promise that Shivinder would become the next RSSB guru.

In addition, the complaint says that the guru has made death threats against Malvinder. Not exactly how one would expect that a supposedly "spiritual" guru would behave, though there are plenty of examples of other Indian gurus behaving badly. 

Now, it seems to me that even if someone was a devotee of a guru who has been accused of such serious wrongdoing, especially since investigators in India have documented the money trail that leads to the guru's doorstep, they would say something like, "Wow, these are serious accusations. I sure hope they aren't true. But this purported wrongdoing needs to be closely examined."

Chris isn't that sort of person, though.

He's been doing his best to attack my credibility, even though I've simply been writing about what the Indian financial press has been reporting. Thus he's doing the attack the messenger thing, rather than responding to the details of the message regarding Gurinder Singh Dhillon's reported misdeeds.

After Chris wrongly claimed that I'm an "icon for dissatisfied meditators," I challenged him to explain why, if this was true, I've been meditating every day for 50 years. If I, and other spiritual but not religious types, are dissatisfied with our meditation, seemingly we wouldn't be so happy to meditate.

Here's the most recent comment from Chris, along with my responses in red. I enjoy puncturing religious pretense, so it was a pleasure to reply to Chris' comment. Since my name is Brian Hines, I'm the "BH" in the comment Chris shared.

As a gesture of good faith, I'll do you the courtesy of replying to your points and questions first. I have assumed you will permit me to be rigorously honest with you. . . . , . . .

Hey, I love honesty. Especially rigorous honesty. That's the best kind. I sprinkle rigorous honesty on my cereal each morning -- that's how much I adore it. 

BH: “you claim to be devoted to the truth." I have not made such a "claim" here. Can you quote me? FALSE ASSUMPTION 1

Oh, I'm sorry. When I said in a comment that you (Chris) claim to be devoted to the truth, I thought you'd take that as a compliment. I stand corrected. You don't claim to be devoted to the truth. But I am. I guess I assumed that you were as devoted to the truth as me. My bad.

BH: “you speak of things that you have no knowledge of." Brian you don't know me, nor what I know. FALSE ASSUMPTION 2

Well, what I was thinking of when I said that about you was the above-referenced statement you made about me being an icon for dissatisfied meditators. Since you don't have direct knowledge of how satisfied I or others are with our meditation, I stand by my assertion. But if you do know how satisfied we are with our meditation, I look forward to seeing evidence of your mystical powers. 

BH: "Such as, what I and other critics of the RSSB guru have experienced in meditation, and continue to experience." I have made no such claim to such knowledge. And I admit I don't have it. FALSE ASSUMPTION & ACCUSATION 3

Hmmmm. It sure seems like you made that claim. Below is an excerpt from one of your comments. You said that I and others have embraced "erroneous certainties." But I'm glad that you now admit that you don't know whether what we non-religious meditators experience in meditation is true. So I accept your apology. You wrote;

"Most people live their lives out of self-invented illusory certainties. In my view Brian Hines and many others here have merely swapped one set of erroneous sureties for a different set. As we ALL have the right to do. But if Mr. Hines wants to claim he is spreading 'truth' -- and doing it very publically -- then he also can be held accountable for what he spreads. Don't you think? Or has he now become an untouchable icon for dissatisfied meditators, thus someone who must be defended at all costs, even when he is clearly in error?"

BH: "As Sonya correctly said, we are not the 'dissatisfied meditators' that you say we are." I meant specifically surat-shabd-yoga meditation. And I wasn't referring to JUST you. I was colloquially referring to you and some of your defenders/supporters. In your case I was referencing how you have often expressed a dissatisfaction with the results of your decades of RS surat-shabd yoga. I admit I have made an assumption of my own, that someone who had satisfactory results in surat-shabd yoga would not be regularly engaged in the kind of comments that are commonplace here.

Ah, now we get to the crux of what is bothering Chris. He apparently believes that surat-shabd-yoga meditation is the only genuine kind. I heartily disagree. I spent 35 years diligently practicing that sort of meditation, which is that taught by Radha Soami Satsang Beas.

For about 15 years I've been meditating in a Buddhist fashion, using Vipassana (mindfulness) and Metta (loving kindness) practices. In my experience mindfulness and loving kindness are better ways of meditating. But everyone has to decide for themselves.

I'm just surprised that Chris is so judgmental about meditation practices that differ from the one he prefers.

I'm also surprised that Chris seems to be suggesting that he has achieved some sort of meditation heights that us mere mortals haven't. Do you really believe that surat shabd yoga meditation is better than other types, Chris? Regardless of the answer, I now understand why Chris is so defensive about criticisms of the RSSB guru.

If the guru really is guilty of the crimes he's been accused of, this would show that surat-shabd-yoga doesn't make one a better human being, given that Gurinder Singh Dhillon is the spiritual leader of a surat-shabd-yoga sect.

BH: "You seem to look upon meditation as some sort of a contest...” No, I have not written that, and I do not think that. FALSE ASSUMPTION 4

Again, I stand corrected. When you spoke of "dissatisfied meditators," I understandably assumed that you had a vision in mind of what a satisfied meditator would be like. It's good to know that notwithstanding your statements about surat-shabd-yoga meditation, actually you don't believe that sort of meditation is better than other kinds. On that we agree. Which is why I'm pleased to stick with mindfulness and loving kindness meditation.

BH: "If you're willing, please share what you consider should make someone dissatisfied with their meditation." I regard this as a devious attempt at entrapment used as a defensive avoidance tactic. But ...only you can know for sure. Whatever, I have no interest in pursuing such a line of enquiry and don't see how it adds to the discussion of you presenting one-sided allegations and speculations as if they are factually proven, when any honest person knows that, as yet, they aren't.

Gosh, Chris, I politely said "if you're willing..." No need to view my request as a "devious attempt at entrapment."

Didn't you just say that you don't view meditation as some sort of contest? I simply was wondering why you claimed that I and others were dissatisfied with our meditation. Seemingly that claim would be backed up by a criterion of what would make someone satisfied with their meditation.

Regarding the allegations made against Gurinder Singh Dhillon, you should complain to the Indian financial press and Malvinder Singh, since they're the ones reporting on and making those allegations. I sprinkle my blog posts on this subject with "allegedly" and similar terms. I've never said that they were factually proven. Maybe you've been reading some other blog and mixing it up with this one. Hey, we all make mistakes. 

BH: "Again, along with Buddhist teachings, I consider that coming closer to the reality of the present moment, whatever that reality consists of, is what meditation is all about. If you disagree, share your own view of meditation." Again, I see this as yet another irrelevant point to my specific observations and therefore a diversionary tactic. There.

There? That's your answer to my query about whether you believe coming closer to the reality of the present moment is what meditation is all about?

I simply was trying to understand how you view meditation. Sounds like I was correct in assuming above that truth isn't your primary goal in meditation. That's fine. Everybody is entitled to their own illusions. Whatever works for you, do it.

Will you now reply to the previous observations and the related questions put to you? Here are a few more: Can you see how you have again in this reply made many false assumptions and made unfounded claims?

No. 

Can you see that you have built a picture of what is occurring between us based on those false assumptions AS IF they were 'factual' and 'true'?

No.

Can you see how that appears to be a pattern of behaviour?

No.

UPDATE: I just came across a comment by Sonya that is too good not to share in this post. GSD refers to Gurinder Singh Dhillon, the guru of Radha Soami Satsang Beas. Enjoy:

@Chris Why do you keep saying “dissatisfied meditators”. I was very satisfied with my meditation when I followed RSSB and am still satisfied with meditation today. That had nothing to do with GSD. It’s GSD’s stomach churning behavior and the comments I personally witnessed spew out of his mouth as well as his inappropriate behavior that were intolerable.

Maybe you haven’t spent enough time in his close presence to understand this yet. As you’ll see in one of Brian’s recent posts he threw in “allegedly” and made reference to how Stephen Colbert often throws in “allegedly” when talking about Trump.

That made me laugh... All of the other late night TV show hosts repeat the news... (and they don’t even say allegedly) that’s exactly what Brian is doing (on a more serious note). Watch Colbert, Trevor Noah, Jimmy Kimmel, Jimmy Fallon, James Corden, John Oliver... they repeat the news and add their own Op Ed to it...

I wish India had an SNL [Saturday Night Live] type show... maybe they do. If so, I’d love to see it because this whole RSSB, Dhillon, Singh scandal has rocked the Indian Media. They like to refer to it as a potboiler... they say it has all the makings of a Bollywood movie with a guru even thrown in! It’s a blockbuster Bollywood film in the making.

You should spend some time watching the News channels in India cover this... get a translator. It’s sadly very entertaining. Or are you more of a Fox News and Info Wars kind of guy/girl? (respectfully, Chris could be either) What made GSD will break GSD.

Comments

[Chris]

What a fascinating response! It seems to me to be confirming my original observation that started this. I find it replete with more false assumptions and dishonest arguments. E.g. the assumption that this is all about defending someone.

I am not aware of defending anyone or anything other than fairness and truthfulness. My position I made clear in a long comment a few days ago.
But let's let the readers decide.

Here is my original observation again that prompted this latest blog article, for anyone interested. And the later replies.
Readers will see the question to Brian that was never answered and which I think explains much.
. . . . . .

“BOTTOM LINE:
Malvinder's allegations at this stage can not yet be described as facts.
People who can not bring themselves to acknowledge that 'fact' are operating from a self-delusion and are being dishonest -- both with themselves and with others -- if they maintain otherwise.

Critical thinking should still apply even if you are disappointed with a meditation practice and its results.

And conn-firmational bias is still something to watch out for, even if you have become an athiest."

. . . . .

There! That's all this was about originally.
This is the above observation that Brian is now interpreting as a personal attack.
After reading the above, Brian made a false assumption that I could not have read what he had written. I.e. he couldn't imagine how anyone who had read his blog could have a different understanding to himself. So sure and certain was he, that he couldn't deal with the actual observation, so started a diversionary defensive manoeuver.

Here is my reply, containing a specific —and repeatedly dodged — question:
. . . . .
“I did read the article.
So right there, you are -- as is your way -- making negative and innaccurate assumptions in order to support your current cherished viewpoint. You made a negative assertion based on something that you couldn't and didn't didn't know.
Do you agree?
I wonder, if you can acknowledge THAT fact to me and the other readers?

I wonder if you are able to, as I have not yet seen you admit error when it is presented to you by others.

So anyway, yes, YOU are convinced of Gurinder's guilt. Got it!
We can all see that.
And your assumption may turn out to be an accurate one. Maybe he IS guilty as alleged by Malvinder.

But YOU keep presenting news reports reporting allegations AS IF they are factually proven. They are NOT.

So... Here is that fact concerning YOU again:
you are currently unable to see what YOU ARE DOING.
I.e. you are deceiving yourself. You are suffering from a self-induced delusion of surety.

Ultimately we are all responsible for OUR actions, our motives and our behaviour.”
. . . . . .

In reply to a Brian-defender, I made my position even clearer:

”In my view the issue here is really a very simple one.
It is that Brian Hines is spreading information AS IF it is proven fact when -- at this stage -- it clearly isn't.

He has shown that he cannot currently distinguish between his own beliefs and what is verified fact.

If you also don't see anything wrong with that, then I suggest you also are ironically a person who is deluding themselves, and who holds their own cherished viewpoint in higher regard then the quest for accuracy, and truth.

No blame. Most people live their lives out of self-invented illusory certainties. In my view Brian Hines and many others here have merely swapped one set of erroneous sureties for a different set.
As we ALL have the right to do.
But if Mr. Hines wants to claim he is spreading "truth" -- and doing it very publically -- then he also can be held accountable for what he spreads. Don't you think?

Or has he now become an untouchable icon for dissatisfied meditators, thus someone who must be defended at all costs, even when he is clearly in error?”
. . . .

And to another:
“...we all can and must decide or select what we choose to accept as 'truth'.
I still strongly advise, that despite Brian's self-cherishing belief that he already has it on this and other subjects, and is spreading 'truth', he actually isn't.
And I think there's a lesson for us ALL there. Which is why I am highlighting it.”
. . . . .

I was pleased to see that Jay agreed with my approach.

SUMMARY (repeat of main points previously written):
“Malvinder's allegations at this stage can not yet be described as facts.
People who can not bring themselves to acknowledge that 'fact' are operating from a self-delusion and are being dishonest -- both with themselves and with others -- if they maintain otherwise.”
. . . . . .

“Brian is convinced of Gurinder's guilt. Got it!
And his assumption may turn out to be an accurate one. Maybe Gurinder IS guilty as alleged by Malvinder.
But Brian keeps presenting ...allegations AS IF they are factually proven. At this stage they are NOT.”

[Chris]

Here below I link to a previous post of mine that I believe demonstates that again Brian in the above blog article has made false assumptions and then made unfair and false accusation based upon them.

I suggest that is a repeating pattern of defensive behaviour to avoid being corrected and to avoid admitting error.
WQWhicj is all this is about for me. Fairnes and truthfulness.

If anyone chooses to see correction as a personal attack against the messenger, that is their choice. But for the record, what I have written here is intended to suggest there is something else occurring. And its to do with our mutual self-centred, self-cherishing/self-justifying human nature which can become an obstacle to correct perception of reality.

I leave it to the sagacity of the fair-minded reader to decide for themselves. :-)

https://hinessight.blogs.com/church_of_the_churchless/2019/02/legal-filing-against-gurinder-singh-dhillon-is-fascinating-reading.html?cid=6a00d83451c0aa69e2022ad3e487c3200b#comment-6a00d83451c0aa69e2022ad3e487c3200b

[s*]

Truth is: things are mentioned in Newspapers.
We can read it here in this place for Westerners.
Truth is that people read it.
Outcome is NEXT.(we wiĺl see)

Meditation stays very fine because it is just fine to meditate.

We all seek for truth.

In truth ,doubd is allowed..very much so..
The Wisdom of not knowing is wise.
I am happy with this blog,so one can learn by reading and communicating.
Ahoo!!

[Meditator]

@Chris
As a matter of fact most of devout satsangis at RSSB even if may not be speaking openly but will certainly do not wish an iota of stain on his Guru and will definitely resist as you are and some of us have also done same to the extent possible. After a point one needs to accept the part truth what has come out at rupture point after an eventual break up within a very well intertwined family. Since his line of saints have been presumed as Perfect Masters it is difficult to absorb allegations of fraud counting in millions or even a few billions - yet to be proven in black and white.

You may be witness to the poor families who are most loving and common features at Beas often come at each Bhandara and I am sure they even care to be very above-board and honest in their very small give and take of monies despite their failing finances every now and then - just enough for them to meet their day to day needs. Therefore it may make an outsider on the periphery to visualise this goings on as drama being run on hypothetical base. And therefore those who have crossed over to other territory for valid reasons as I read them their version of same therefore should not be ignored.

Unfortunately there is no unambiguous response to the allegations denying it all together or under what circumstances it got to happen or whether He had been in trouble for quite sometimes now for some different reasons or obligations than for greed or amassing wealth etc. It could well have been cleared through an internal note or else for the learning pleasure of satsangis who may be very much disturbed all due to such developments.

I think Brian Sir at least may not be very happy in reproducing such allegations which nowadays dot each newspaper every now and then. He had been a revered member of this RSSB group and we respect him. Therefore you can not shut mouth of the rest non-satsangis forget about satsangis. Since this an interactive forum it allows same.

Under such series of happenings with different Gurus especially in India we should pause for awhile to discuss as to if spirit and spirituality really exists within the live human being which we are now until dead and whether it requires a Perfect Master - a God incarnate and if yes (b'cos I firmly believe that it exists - same having been firmly established by Perfect Saints as Kabir, Nanak, Jesus and others to whom I bow before always) then is it present somewhere on Earth if not in Beas.

And Spence Tepper almost confirms same it to be at RSSB in the present Master as also the previous Masters despite such financial insinuations / materialistic approach / slip in words etc being alleged and observed by us in him.

No doubt some of us may be defending the Indefensible in the times of logics and straight talks than blind devotion while at the same time we feel blocked to interpret it from a state of higher consciousness which at least I am not so far.

[Brian Hines]

Chris, stop the lying. Nowhere in this post do I make any false assumptions. I simply shared the criminal complaint filed by Malvinder Singh against the guru of Radha Soami Satsang Beas, Gurinder Singh Dhillon. The complaint is a matter of fact. I commented on some excerpts from the complaint.

I realize that you're desperate to put the guru's purported actions in a positive light. Just do this honestly. Address the accusations directly, not by attacking the messenger. In this case, me. In other regards, the Indian financial press.

[Neon]

I dont understand Chris. Look even if all this is fake, why the hell did they need money? These are the same people that preach about Kabir not using the gold he was given because he wanted to live a simple life. What kind of moral life is one where there is close to 1 billion dollars being shared in a single family.

[Michael]

Brian is flat out lying when he says that he is only reporting what has been reported and not stating himself anything as fact. In a blog post dated February 19th Brian wrote: “But G.S. has made death threats against Malvinder and offered up his position as Guru for a lot of money”. He is stating accusations as if they were facts. In case he decides to delete that Blog post, I have taken a screenshot of his words as I’m sure they will be helpful if there is a defamation lawsuit.

[Brian Hines]

Michael, don’t be ridiculous. In discussing the criminal complaint against Gurinder Singh it gets old to say allegedly in every sentence. My blog posts make clear that Malvinder has filed a complaint that obviously isn’t a final verdict. And as I’ve noted before, we have free speech here in the United States. I’m totally free to say that I believe the RSSB guru made death threats. In fact, I do believe this, but the Indian legal system will decide the guru’s fate.

[Michael]

Brian you are the one being ridiculous. Allow me to demonstrate this by a hypothetical situation. Let’s say your neighbor files a complaint against you stating you broke into his house and stole his TV. He says he even has surveillance footage proving that you did and is willing to provide it if necessary. Now let’s say I read about this accusation in the papers and on my public blog I state that Brian is a thief who steals property from his neighbor. And when I was confronted about why I chose to state this as a fact my response is that it gets old to keep saying allegedly. Hopefully you will realize how absurdly silly your response sounds but if not I hope you learn a lesson through a much deserved legal lawsuit.

[Sonya]

News outlets regurgitate. Op Eds take that circulating news and expand upon them to show an alternative perspective or to highlight and take a closer look at a specific aspect of the story.

I think we all understand that at this point in time these are all allegations. Naturally an accusation/allegation stays an allegation until courts rule otherwise. This is simply a forum (a freakin’ blog) for people to express their views, opinions, experiences, etc. This is not a court of law nor does Brian wish it to be (I’m making an assumption here). This is a platform for everyone to be able to share their opinions.

Just because you no longer follow RSSB does not mean you’re an atheist. You might be or might not be. We are all free to choose.

Just because you no longer follow RSSB doesn’t necessarily mean you no longer meditate (but that’s really nobody’s business anyway).

Just because you no longer follow RSSB does not mean you have thrown away all the positive you may have gained from it.

Just because you no longer follow RSSB does not mean you don’t love the current Master (some on this blog still do).

Just because you no longer follow RSSB does not mean you wish the organization to fall apart. Most of us realize there are many people who count on getting their daily meal at the Satsang. The Dera today serves as a small city, providing work, housing, medical care, and food for a certain number of individuals. The spiritual aspect seems to be optional (but that’s jut my opinion).

Yes, Chris, this is my opinion. But my word is strong. And I’m much older than you think—Charan Singh was the only real thing to me in Sant Mat even though I only got to see him twice in India. I sort of don’t know what to make of his appointing GSD to be the current guru. That has baffled me for a long time. Personal spiritual experiences can’t be explained or proven. They just are what they are... and the benefit is for the one receiving and for them alone. Do you still keep in touch with Hazuur? Don’t you have a session to attend to?

[Chris]

Wow! Brian. This discussion appears to be really yanking your chain.
Lying?
I can't let that go by.
Please explain where you believe I have lied. And please quote my exact words.

I think you are digging a bigger hole for yourself.
Did you even read the link to my previous comment that refutes parts your latest blog article and explains my actual view of the allegations?

Making an error and false assumption isn't a big deal. Unless we choose to make it one by refusing correction.
Just look at this one small but very clear example:
. . . .
BH: “you claim to be devoted to the truth."
Chris: I have not made such a "claim" here. Can you quote me? FALSE ASSUMPTION 1

BH: Oh, I'm sorry. When I said in a comment that you claim to be devoted to the truth, I thought you'd take that as a compliment. I stand corrected. You don't claim to be devoted to the truth. But I am. I guess I assumed that you were as devoted to the truth as me. My bad."
. . . .

Look at the irrefutable reality in this small incident. I didn't make any such "claim' here. You could NOT quote me on that. You made a false assumption and based an argument on that.

But instead of admitting that when corrected, you then swing to another erroneous exaggerated extreme and use of sarcasm: “Oh, I'm sorry. I stand corrected. You don't claim to be devoted to the truth. My bad”.

But I didn't say that either.

Do you see the pattern yet?
You keep mistaking your distorted perception and mirroring of reality as actual reality. No blame, we all do that to some extent. But the issue here is dishing out criticism, but then refusing to accept ANY correction in return.

So... anyway, back to what this discussion was originally about.

Brian wrote: “Gurinder Singh HAS made death threats against Malvinder Singh”.
Brian wrote: “The guru HAS made death threats against his cousin.”
Brian wrote: “The guru HAD promised to make Shivinder the head of RSSB, taking Gurinder Singh's place, in exchange for forgiveness of the debts owed...”

The actual 'fact' remains that you do NOT 'know' yet whether GSD made death threats.
Nor whether he accepted loans in return to make Shivinder his successor.
NO-ONE outside of those involved does.
None of here knows the truth of those allegations yet.
But you suggested you already did know, and you presenting these allegations from Malav as if they were verified fact. When they are not, yet.

You even claimed to be presenting "truth" didn't you? Do you remember that?

Now, WHY would someone do that?
I suggest its not just because one of the two main implicated, accused participants has said so, but because you have an emotional investment in that being the only correct outcome. You have a confirmational bias. You are doing precisely what Richard Feynman advised against.

Look at how our discussion began. You were so sure of the rectitude of YOUR OWN belief, that you assumed anyone who didn't agree with you hadn't read your presentation. And now you believe anyone who sees an error in your unwarranted surety is "attacking the messenger" to protect their own belief-system.
Can you not see the irony? Here you are attacking a messenger who corrected you on a relatively minor yet irrefutable point: viz. that you do not know the 'truth' of the allegation of death threats, nor the gaddi sale, etc. None of us do yet.
. . . .

“Be not deceived with the first appearance of things, for show is not substance.”
-- English proverb.

[Brian Hines]

Michael, I'm curious: do you live in the United States? I'm asking this because you seem to have a strange view of the Constitution's free speech provision, as well as Oregon's even stronger free speech protections.

Also, do you ever watch cable news shows in the United States? CNN, MSNBC, and Fox have guests who talk all the time about supposed illegal acts that haven't been adjudicated yet. It's perfectly fine and legal for me, or anyone else to say, "I think President Trump has committed illegal acts."

Likewise, it's perfectly fine and legal for me, or anyone else to say, "I think Gurinder Singh Dhillon has committed illegal acts." The guru is a public figure who has had a criminal complaint filed against him. Reporting on that complaint is perfectly fine and legal, as is me expressing my opinion about whether the complaint is justified.

Since Malvinder says he has recordings of the guru's death threats, and is ready to provide those recordings to Indian authorities, this lends credence to the criminal complaint. I realize you want to believe that the guru is innocent, but that's just a belief.

[Michael]

To answer your question Brian, yes I do live in the US. As an American, I am crystal clear on what free speech is and isn’t. For a published author you seem to be surprisingly ignorant on the fact that saying you believe something happened is not the same as saying something happened. For example saying “G.S. HAS made death threats against Malvinder” is in no way, shape or form the equivalent of “I believe G.S. has made death threats against Malvinder.” I could elaborate further but no need since Chris actually made the same point I have been trying to make in his response to you.

[Brian Hines]

Michael, like I said, but I guess you chose to either not read or forget, once I said that Malvinder's criminal complaint contains allegations, I saw no need to add "alleged" to every sentence in my blog post regarding those allegations. If you can't understand this, I see no need to elaborate further.

May I suggest that you pay more attention to the crimes Gurinder Singh Dhillon is alleged to have committed, than to a blogger reporting on the criminal complaint. You remind me of what Republicans are doing to Michael Cohen in his Congressional testimony today. No questions are being asked about Trump's wrongdoing. Their focus is on trying to discredit Cohen.

When the messenger is attacked for a message, this shows how weak the position is of those the message to be false.

[Chris]

BH: "When the messenger is attacked for a message, this shows how weak the position is of those the message to be false."

Hunh??

Maybe what you are subconsciously admitting here with that incoherence is that when a person unconsciously believes they are infallible and can not admit any correction, then any semblance of correction, no matter how accurate, will be seen as a personal attack against them.

;-)

[Michael]

Ha Ha Chris you took the words right out of my mouth. I read his response and also was like HUH!!! It is hard to take anything he says seriously.

[Sonya]

OMG, Michael and Chris, are either of you familiar with Twitter?? Do you know what a Blog is?

(taken from Quora) "Typically a blog is a medium by which one author posts his or her thoughts on a given subject. Like an essay, blog posts are typically longer (several paragraphs in length) and contain the established opinion of the author."

https://www.quora.com/What-is-the-difference-between-a-forum-and-a-blog-and-how-would-you-best-describe-each-one

Please note "established opinion of the author". This is a blog. Brian could say the Queen was one of the lizard people if he wanted to. (I still don't understand that particular conspiracy theory). This is his blog and he just allows you to comment. This is not the Washington Post or Forbes... or any number of news outlets currently reporting on the Singh Saga.

Have either of you ever watched a Presidential debate? Talk about allegations being presented as facts... they are often closer to mudslinging.

blog: n. : a regular feature appearing as part of an online publication that typically relates to a particular topic and consists of articles and personal commentary by one or more authors
— Merriam Webster

Personal Commentary: "A personal commentary is the writing of a personal experience or opinion of the author from his own point of view. The commentary is a brief work more suited to a literary journal, newspaper or blog than a book, and it is journalistic in tone."

https://www.reference.com/world-view/personal-commentary-d763300912740062

Do blogs influence public opinion? Sure they do. But so does sharing personal experiences and how many times do we hear news that state "anonymous" or "unnamed" sources as their source. Seriously.

This may help clarify things even more: https://www.quora.com/What-is-the-difference-between-an-op-ed-and-a-blog

Give it a break, pleeeeeez, and just participate in the debate... or not.

[Guru]

Hi Brian

[Guru too]

Just because my truth is not your truth, it doesn't make my truth untrue. Yes, it works both ways. That's why we are blessed beyond measure to have freedom of speech.

-Sonya :-)

[Chris]

Sonya wrote:
"Just because my truth is not your truth, it doesn't make my truth untrue. Yes, it works both ways.”

Ha ha! Classic. That neatly sums up what is REALLY occurring here.

Everybody is entitled to their own opinion, sure. But not their own facts.

[Chris]

...or whoever wrote it...

[Guru]

Brian why did you quit rssb? Because you were fired as a speaker or because you dont need the path anymore?

[Spence Tepper]

Hi Michael
You wrote
". In case he decides to delete that Blog post, I have taken a screenshot of his words as I’m sure they will be helpful if there is a defamation lawsuit."

For real?
Really?
Let's just say the alleged you allegedly took an alleged screen shot just in case Brian's alleged words are allegedly deleted, should an alleged lawsuit for alleged defamation arise, as it appatently, but only allegedly, has arisen in your very alleged mind.

[PJ]

@Sonia GSD was chosen as the successor because he was the most charismatic option in the family. This is a family business. Why does GIHF keep incarnating in not just the same country but the same family?

Why isn't the next master a Mexican? Or a Dane? etc. Not only will it be a Sikh, but it will be someone from their family again, guaranteed.

[Sonya]

@PJ, 🙌👏🙌 :-)

[Sonya]

@Chris, you’ll probably like this as well:

“What I know for sure is that you feel real joy in direct proportion to how connected you are to living your truth.” Oprah Winfrey

Seriously, when is the next Dera session? Court date? And the December roast was filled with hilarious truths. 😂 GSD’s attorney did such a good job—very talented. All true.

[Sonya]

Before I retire to Ibiza...

Chris said, "Maybe what you are subconsciously admitting here with that incoherence is that when a person unconsciously believes they are infallible and can not admit any correction, then any semblance of correction, no matter how accurate, will be seen as a personal attack against them."

Really??? Doesn't GSD believe he is infallible?? An even better question, do you (Chris) believe GSD is infallible?? Does Michael believe GSD is infallible?? Does any sane person still believe GSD is infallible?

[Sonya]

I've really got to get packing for my trip to Ibiza, but one last little comment...

@Spence, I can't stop laughing... "allegedly". Thanks for that LOL

[Pema Tej]

What's the fuss?

allegedly or not allegedly...
The fact seems to be that there is disorder between the parties mentioned in the blogs, and that Malvinder is filing a complaint against a few people (GSD, Shivinder etc.)

Why are people nitpicking on Brian's blogs?
Why are they even suggesting any form of defamation?

Brian is simply sharing the story from an Oregonian's perspective.... enjoy it, or deal with it!

[Meditator]

Those of us who are defending allegations raised by the extended family of Guru himself should take it as an internal issue of the family which has come out in the open at breaking point when perhaps one of the family members felt he had no other choice, This we need assume otherwise why would he (Malvinder) may have risked the reputation of his Guru and Guru's family itself and Guru's Guru - his earthly Grandfather.

The onus is on the Guru's family to clear out the allegations which may be untruth no doubt and not we satsangis because we may not had or have any direct or open access to such dealings distinctly of the finances of Guru's family.

Next why are each of us interested/concerned about it, it is because we had or have our associations with the RSSB before or now. And none of us seem to be throwing a stone at it but are just discussing the downfalls which some of us think in its character. its spiritual claims, personal progresses etc in the light of same. Isn't it worth for us fellow satsangis.

And reproduction of same by someone(here, Mr Brian and others) in the blog with his/their inferences/ observations who is/are no more associated with RSSB can not be cleared out by the devout satsangis of RSSB by mere long explanations with logics eating into words spelt by the other member of the forum.

Spirituality is a serious business and it can not be blinded by the allegations if a person has real inner progress but he has to have same to say it convincingly than jumping on mental projections and logics borne out of earthly love and respect for Guru. Requires real inner progress to say it perfectly - may be that will shut out each one of us.

Regard to everyone.

[Meditator]

Those of us who are defending allegations raised by the extended family of Guru himself should take it as an internal issue of the family which has come out in the open at breaking point when perhaps one of the family members felt he had no other choice, This we need assume otherwise why would he (Malvinder) may have risked the reputation of his Guru and Guru's family itself and Guru's Guru - his earthly Grandfather.

The onus is on the Guru's family to clear out the allegations which may be untruth no doubt and not we satsangis because we may not had or have any direct or open access to such dealings distinctly of the finances of Guru's family.

Next why are each of us interested/concerned about it, it is because we had or have our associations with the RSSB before or now. And none of us seem to be throwing a stone at it but are just discussing the downfalls which some of us think in its character. its spiritual claims, personal progresses etc in the light of same. Isn't it worth for us fellow satsangis.

And reproduction of same by someone(here, Mr Brian and others) in the blog with his/their inferences/ observations who is/are no more associated with RSSB can not be cleared out by the devout satsangis of RSSB by mere long explanations with logics eating into words spelt by the other member of the forum.

Spirituality is a serious business and it can not be blinded by the allegations if a person has real inner progress but he has to have same to say it convincingly than jumping on mental projections and logics borne out of earthly love and respect for Guru. Requires real inner progress to say it perfectly - may be that will shut out each one of us.

Regards

[Meditator]

Those of us who are defending allegations raised by the extended family of Guru himself should take it as an internal issue of the family which has come out in the open at breaking point when perhaps one of the family members felt he had no other choice, This we need assume otherwise why would he (Malvinder) may have risked the reputation of his Guru and Guru's family itself and Guru's Guru - his earthly Grandfather.

The onus is on the Guru's family to clear out the allegations which may be untruth no doubt and not we satsangis because we may not had or have any direct or open access to such dealings distinctly of the finances of Guru's family.

Next why are each of us interested/concerned about it, it is because we had or have our associations with the RSSB before or now. And none of us seem to be throwing a stone at it but are just discussing the downfalls which some of us think in its character. its spiritual claims, personal progresses etc in the light of same. Isn't it worth for us fellow satsangis.

And reproduction of same by someone(here, Mr Brian and others) in the blog with his/their inferences/ observations who is/are no more associated with RSSB can not be cleared out by the devout satsangis of RSSB by mere long explanations with logics eating into words spelt by the other member of the forum.

Spirituality is a serious business and it can not be blinded by the allegations if a person has real inner progress but he has to have same to say it convincingly than jumping on mental projections and logics borne out of earthly love and respect for Guru. Requires real inner progress to say it perfectly - may be that will shut out each one of us.

Regards

[s*]

Rssb is just faith based..not ´fact´based.
It starts with assumptions about higher stages what can be reached with the help of the guru.
That are assumptions to start with..build on ´faith´ in the path where the guru is most important.
One builds his her life on assumptions actually
.....
In fact...

[NickGB]

Posters making comments about stating things as facts which are not facts are not blind to the wider case and investigation. They are simply stating that you can make yourself vulnerable legally under defamation case law. You don't need to prefix everything with 'allegedly' but you do need to make very open and transparent that the views expressed are your opinions only.
Brian has moderated his statements in this regard it seems. You should not underestimate the potential for some legal predator out there to pounce on niceties and build evidence to press a charge. For the record I am not hostile to either this blog or to RSSB per se. The 'facts' will unravel over time and interested parties will stay watching. One consideration; if GSD were a politician with this cloud hanging over him he would have had to resign (at least in the UK).

[Nick GB]

Neon highlighted one of the key issues IMO. Even if legal wrongdoing is not proven, just exactly what is a Guru doing messing around in underhand business deals designed to accure multi millions in personal/family/dependents fortunes. Just exactly why does He need to accrue such wealth when the overriding tone of the teaching is to give up on worldly concerns as such and focus on the inner journey. As s* has pointed out Sant Mat and RSSB are down on worldy existence, disparaging of most things most of us hold dear, such as family life, friends, work, leisure. Down on in the sense of dismssive and subordinate to 'ultimate concerns' which center on inner life. Charan Singh even said that what can be seen is not real and what cannot be seen is real. Now ultimately this may or may not be the case. I don't know and not sure I care anymore. This further translates into a life negating view and extrapolates well beyond basic facts such as 'life is difficult'. It in no way can be seen as life affirming, and the general view is that life/incarnation here is a mistake made possible by karmas allied to transmigration. Now for karmas you could read sin and for transmigration you can read afterlife. For a faith that is so down on worldly life GSD has certainly done a lot to heap up treasure in this world 'where moths and rust and thieves can enter' to paraphrase the Gospel saying. This is clearly a total contradiction and goes way beyond simple provision for family and dependents. albeit maybe motivated by legacy concerns following ill health. My feelings on all this; in Lord of the Rings Treebeard emerges from Fangorn Forest with hobbits Merry and Pippin and sees the destruction of fellow trees by Saruman; saying 'A Wizard should know better!'. Well a Guru should know better. What kind of example is any of this? What kind of standard? Heaping up huge wealth way beyond any normal 'need' or 'requirement' really gets my leftist goat. It really is sad and shameful. But hey, no blame, we all screw up. Only difference is i haven't got millions of 'followers'.

[manjit]

State of the CotC Blog Address - Allegedly

Dear fellow brothers and sisters, satsangis & critics, believers & sceptics, those full of joy, awe & astonishment, and those full of nihilism, despair and futility........these are indeed turbulent & confusing times! In view of this, I thought I would write a post - full of nothing but allegations, you must understand - to clarify the situation for those amongst us with still a tad of integrity, decency, honesty, sincerity etc - yes, I can see there are still quite a few of you out there! :)

Here is a brief summary of the situation, with the info you require to navigate this perplexing terrain!:

Brian - Ah, our dear esteemed owner of the blog. A man who had to be removed from his position as RSSB satsang speaker (which he perceived as being "fired" - seva is a job? Tells the wise all they need to know right there :) to end his association with it. Overnight his criticism of RSSB & Gurinder explodes......previous to that, it was a mild doubt & scepticism. So mild it was, that neither myself or David Lane imagined for a second he would leave his position of his own accord, and I claimed he would be pushed:

https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/radhasoamistudies/conversations/topics/97467

Again, this will tell the wise all they need to know.

In regards the recent scandals and revelations regarding RSSB & Gurinder, it is clearly apparent Brian has taken great joy & delight in this, and is deeply motivated by the attention, page views etc he gets from it. But, who would deny somebody who believes meaningless, nihilistic futility is the real ultimate nature of reality a bit of joy and delight? Take it where you can get it Brother!

However, Spencer's jumping on his bandwagon and championing him as the guy in the "driving seat" of "truth", and as if he is actually motivated by some truly noble motivations of care & concern for RS satsangis is beyond ridiculous & absurd (and, as we can see by Brian's post here, mutually reciprocated as in some kind of circle-jerk of faux righteousness :). As are the others praising him and his "work". Reposting things in the public domain simply because they are critical, and transparently purely for the purposes of page views, is neither a champion of "truth" or "noble" or "work". As I stated here before the recent scandals, the real value of this blog - the only value - is the fact that Brian once authored books for RSSB, is now a sceptic, and is well-known, which creates the illusion he has knowledge or is an authority re. RSSB - hence, asides from the Radhasoamistudies group on an outdated medium - no other globally recognised "go to" place for those interested in RS news to get criticial perspectives. And, as I also stated at the time, this is a wonderful and most important seva. Even if it is a seva conducted unintentionally, like a puppet - and not in "the driving seat of truth" as Spence rather absurdly clams. This is best exemplified by Brian's hissy fit at people discussing RS on his comments sections. Ahh, the delusion people want to read his nihilistic, cliched, unexamined & out-dated views on science & philosophy!! Wake up Brian, that's the ONLY value of your blog, stop moderating!!

Regarding Spence's high horse moralising and dubious claims stated with a completely unexamined and unwarranted "knowing tone" - what else could we expect, really?

When I was criticising Gurinder (yes, Gurinder folks, not Gurindar :) for his obsene wealth only a few short months before the scandals broke, stating that this wealth was completely anti-thetical to RS and all gnostic models, Spence retorted, "knowingly", with claims of "ethnic bigotry" or some such other random and absurd claim, as well as vague and ambiguous hints about his "inner experiences" confirming Gurinder's divinity, and a story about "Raja Janak" as an example of RS wealth and guru-ness. The obvious retort being, if your only example of a remotely wealthy RS-type mystic from pre-Soamiji days is a semi-mythical Vedantist from 3,000 years ago, you're clearly on very shaky ground indeed.

What else are we to expect from somebody who "knowingly" argues about concepts in the Granth Sahib, and ancient Indian concepts of waking, dream and deep sleep being astral, causal etc, even though, again, he is factually & easily demonstrably incorrect and there are numerous sources to prove it so?

What else are we to expect from somebody who "knowingly" argued with me for several posts about something that was factually untrue and easily learnt - during his deeply ignorant & unwarranted criticisms
of Faqir Chand. Only after his error could no longer be denied, did he claim that his inner "Charan" said I was to be his "guru" that day! Perhaps it is the same inner "Charan" that tells him Brian is now in the "driving seat" of truth? One can only wonder why this Charan didn't tell him some of these things a little bit prior so as to add a hint of plausibility to these mind-generated illusions? Perhaps, for example, when I was telling him these very things a few months prior? :)

You see Spence, that's the real problem - I saw your recent comment about "inner experience" and how we shouldn't tell them to other people as we can "lose" them. It's not so much that you believe this, but the ridiculous "knowing" tone you state these things with! WAKE UP BROTHER!

Everybody should be sharing their inner experiences - first of all YOU!!! Maybe that way, you will be able to parse cultural & mental constructs, from genuine deeper non-denominational, non-organisational, non-conceptual, non-guru-cult-centred "mystical experiences"? Instead, it appears you are calling for self-censorship & a wallowing in subjective & unexamined fantasy and illusion. How do you think we got here in the first place Spence, with all this RS "GIHF" bullshit? Inner fantasy, unexamined.

I have a secret for you Spence - one you no doubt will "Knowingly" dismiss; When you gave genuine, transformative, non-conceptual, non-dual "mystical experiences", there arises not the tiniest smithereen of chance of ego-inflation, it is impossible. Here's the secret, Spence - if your "inner experiences" are leaving you open to hyper-ego-inflation, then they aren't "spiritual" experiences, but maya, illusion, fantasy etc. Somebody with genuine experience can and will share their experience openly, easily, spontaneously, and all with the genuine intention of moving human understanding and knowledge foward, by expecting peer review and criticism of their experience and adding to the "database" of all human knowledge. And, simultaneously, they will think all this "inner experience" is nothing but a piece of straw, and there is no chance they would "lose" it.

So, I call for a less "knowing" tone to what are transparently your mere speculations which are more often than not factually incorrect, and a more humble tone more commensurate with your actual knowledge and experience. For example, those experiences you discussed on this forum as some sort of "proof" that GurindEr was a true "Satguru", what to make of them now? Will you describe them in full, and then perhaps discuss why they were incorrect, and then what you have learnt from all that?

That would be an honest, genuine discussion. From the heart. All this "knowing" pontificating & preaching about things you were "knowingly" pontificating & preaching the exact opposite about a few months ago is absurd!

Regarding Chris & Michael's recent comments - they are of course right, Brian clearly thinks he knows the truth of what's gone on here, and is stating it all as if it's all been proven fact. He is also, in my experience, unable to display any kind of nuance, sophistication, balance, fair-handedness, objectivity in, well, all his comments about RS, Gurinder, religions, mysticism or science. We know what he's about, and that he's a one trick pony. But really - is that the biggest of your concerns my friends?

Chris - is that the Chris/MBW of Radhasoamistudies forum? He of the remarkable and notable meltdown on the RSS forum, where he claimed RSSB & Gurinder were the highest and best path and was happy to discuss it, thought nobody in ancient history thought "pranava" was inner sound, despite there being copious evidence provided to the contrary, and insinuated I was gay (I'm not, for what it's worth!) because I called Charan Singh out on his vile, ignorant & patently un-GIHF comments about homosexuals? The meltdown was so marked that I believe several of us were genuinely concerned for his mental & physical health......

Let's revisit that little Charan quote shall we - for all the lovely commentors who hint that Charan was such a great, loving compassionate mystic, blah, blah belch:

""In “Quest for Light,” a book containing extracts from letters written by an Indian guru, Charan Singh, the guru said:
"Please remember that anything that is against Nature is always improper and inadvisable. Nature has created the two sexes for the continuation of the species and for the satisfaction of the sex instinct within proper limits. If we go against it, it means we are doing something unnatural of which the laws of Nature do not approve. Homosexuality is contrary to all laws of Nature and no decent society approves it. The act is humiliating and degenerating not only in the eyes of others, but also in the eyes of those who are involved…There are no habits which we cannot break if we have the will and determination to do so."""

Reading these vile, ignorant & demonstrably false ideas, written by Charan Singh in an official RSSB book (actually, I read them on the RSS forum, probably didn't pick up on it when reading the book as a kid), I am reminded of the time as a kid I read the Koran......and pondering over the sheer absurdity of the idea that a woman walking several steps behind her husband, or that there must be several witnesses to a rape to prove it etc etc being the literal "word of god", I am reminded of the absurdity and sheer demonstrable ridiculousness of thinking that what these human beings, these family lineages of "Perfect Living Masters" are saying is also the eternal, unfaltering, unerring "Word of God". Pure & sheer absurdity. Cultural and social constructs, as well as their own human/e ignorance and emotions, not "Godmen". So obviously so.

Now, I know many - old fogey dinosaurs who haven't really got a grasp on these issues - may excuse Charan for his absurd, judgemental, ignorant and dangerous comments, perhaps even believe it is "true" (ie. not realise Charan's comments are deeply judgemental - like kal would be - uncompassionate, and a actually a huge PART of the problem, not a solution!). I don't suspect today and tomorrow's generation will be so forgiving, and they will, I hope and believe, see through these absurdities and delusions of "Godmen" rather easily, by reading comments like these.

No need to even mention the "smuggling" of wealthy & materialistic goods for the great compassionate master Charan via his adoring but somewhat bemused devotees.

Legal semantics surrounding the term "smuggling" aside.....

The thing with Charan is, imo, people conflate his submissive personality with "GIHF-ness", humility, saintliness etc.

This is of course to conflate extremely common personal traits with a super-human persona via the theatre of Radhasoami culture and conceptus. We know the Radhasoami concepts, and we know his grandfather picked him, and he looks oh so nice and loving sat there, doesn't he?

He simply must be an infallible, inerring, "Perfect" God-in-Human-Form. Likewise we projected upon Gurinder.

Delusions! WAKE UP PEOPLE!!!

I mean jeez, haven't you ever actually read a word the man said? He admitted he wasn't even a mystic and barely meditated! He was merely a submissive family man forced into the position when he really wanted to live a normal life!! And yet, and yet.....how we continue to project.....

"I feel that I am like a stone idol in a temple. According to their notions of love, some bathe it with cold water, some with hot water, and some deck it in fine clothes, but it is still an idol all the same."
Charan Singh's dastarbandi speech.

The point is, my friends Chris & Michael - whilst you have a perfectly valid point about Brian's unbalanced myopia, is that really your biggest concerns?

Shouldn't you really be examing your faiths, your path, your allegiances..even if only in private?

As several have commented, Brian lack of usage of the word "allegedly" I suggest is the least of your problems.

It is transparently clear that Gurinder Singh has engaged in behaviour deeply anti-thetical to RS & all gnostic doctrines, and far, far beyond the absurd and ridiculous claims surrounding "Pooran Satgurus" in RS literature. In fact, he has almost certainely engaged in behaviour even semi-decent human beings would balk at, let alone the truly magnificent and magical claims made about Satgurus.

It is now beyond parody.

May I suggest that should be your real concern?

Well, this has gone on for a while - I hope that's brung some of my confused compadres a bit more to speed on the current state of CotC blog?

I'm going to make a cup of tea......I'll see if I think of anything I missed out on mentioning.....and wonder if this post will even see the light of CotC's day!?

[Spence Tepper]

Thank you Manjit.
As expected.
I wish there were something to defend but what can I say?

Join the club.

Meanwhile I'm very grateful that our friend Brian has continued to offer factual articles, insightful analysis, and the hyperbole needed to cut through the illusion of perfect knowledge.

Do you have anything like that to offer?

[manjit]

Hi Spence!

You ask "Do you have anything like that to offer?"

I'm a little unsure of what you're asking - are you asking me to do a google search of RSSB news, such as what Brian has presented?

Or are you asking me for insightful, perhaps even predictive, commentary on RSSB?

Because when it comes to commentary, well, yes - I've discussed Gurinder's obsene wealth, and how to make that much money you must be joined to currents "other than" divine (ie. kal, demi-urge, negative power etc) to make so much moneywith your very own good self, just a few short months before the scandal broke and you did a complete u-turn overnight.

Perhaps you should have paid closer attention?

:o)

Just dial down the unwarranted and unearned "knowing" & preachy tone mate, and perhaps examine your errors in quiet privacy before preaching to others.

For example, as already mentioned, your comment about keeping "inner experience" private and not sharing is incoherent, useless, does nothing but encourage delusions and other dangerous fantasies etc. If you had speculated that this may be true, it would be one thing. Your faux tone of pretending this is some sort of "mystical knowledge" another.

But to each their own brother!

[manjit]

For any intelligent persons actually paying close attention to the posts and posters on this blog over the past few years, they will not so much get swept up into all the conceptual moralising and speculation, the self-serving posturing etc, for which the motivations are often easily understood, and the direction of which is as easily changed as the wind....they will see through charades and see the really important issues.

For example, as I hinted at above, Spence's "inner experience".

Only a few months ago he was telling me of the inner experiences which confirmed Gurinder's absolute divinity. Her defended Gurinder's obsene wealth with tales of mythical people from thousands of years that probably never even existed! (;-). He talked about how the inner experience is infallible and reveals realities etc.

A few months later Gurinder is no longer the absolute Satguru his "inner experience" confirmed for him, now it seems it may actually be Brian (hahahaha :), but Charan still seems to be there.....with his "infallible inner guidance".

Spence hasn't even skipped a beat during this somewhat incoherent narrative.

Preach, preach, preach. No beats missed. No time taken to ponder, integrate etc. Just preach, continue to make claims about this or that, despite a proven track record of error.

This reminds of the now infamous tale of Aaron (whatever), who when Kirpal Singh passed away, claimed he had "verified" Ajaib Singh was Kirpal's true successor via "inner vision" at the 4th or 5th region!!

Why, you can't be mistaken beyond the mind, can you my brothers and sisters, that would be absurd!

Well, until he changed his, errrm, beyond-mind-mind and then claimed it was actually Darshan Singh was the "true successor".

Not a beat missed.

Not a single question raised regarding the nature and cosmology of his faith.

Just preach. Relentlessly.

For the more intelligent amongst us, what this actually raises is huge questions about the entire edifice of RS meditation experiences & phenomena.

it appears from quite a vast body of evidence that all it is actually doing, in the main, is generating dualistic fantasies and delusions?

Who will ask these questions?

Or shall we just continue preaching, whichever way the inner mind's wind blows?

[manjit]

I will repeat myself for the umpteenth time.

Baba Faqir Chand is the greatest Radhasoami guru of all time, hands down and without any even close compare.

His writings will reveal everything that needs to be understood about shabd yoga, inner visions, radhasoami mat, seeming miracles etc, in context of the recent revelations coming from RSSB & Gurinder.

I am not surprised that Spence was so quick to ignorantly and factualy incorrectly criticise him despire clearly not knowing anything about this genuinely great, sincere, honest, real-life mystic (ie not part of a family dynasty).

Everyone should read everything they can from Baba Faqir Chand, and also watch his punjabi/hindi satsangs posted online.

[Spence Tepper]

Hi Manjit
I get where you're coming from.
But you are also preaching your view.

There isn't any escape from that.

Let me ask you a thought experiment.

Have you ever admitted you were wrong?

Have you publicly here said, "I was wrong about that?"

I think that is a qualification for truthfulness. That we can grow and learn.

You are most welcome to provide that evidence here.

You see you and I differ in our definitions of being truthful.

A truthful person knows they aren't perfect, and I think the more experiences we have, the more evident that becomes.

But a less than truthful person is always pointing the finger of blame at others and never stops to say, "Oops I was wrong!"

The less than truthful person views this admission of error as a sign of weakness and fallibility.

But I see it as a strength. Whether in A Guru or a blog commentor. There is perfection in being perfectly human.

And I view the person who must look backwards to defend whatever they have done as somehow flawless and perfect for all time as actually extremely weak and in fact vulnerable, because they have lost touch with their own issues. Whether a Guru or a commentor.

Yes, this is preachy and conceptual because I don't know enough to point fingers at individuals to criticise.. I don't believe anyone does.

The issues of Gurinder are simply a matter of the facts and how people choose to interpret them. There are a lot of facts out there on this right now.

[manjit]

Hi Spence!

You write: "I get where you're coming from. "

Do you? Really?

Hmmmm.

You write: "But you are also preaching your view."

Am I? It feels suspiciously like I'm just having a bit of a giggle, from my pov?

But you "get where I'm coming from", so I guess you know best.

Re. where I'm coming from - it's rather magnificent, isn't it? Shhhh, don't tell anyone, they won't believe us :)

You ask: "Have you ever admitted you were wrong?"

Yes! Next!

You ask: "Have you publicly here said, "I was wrong about that?""

I can't remember.

Do me a favour, and perhaps point out where I was wrong and didn't admit it publicly here?

I have provided several examples of your, from Chand (though you did, eventually, admit it) to not knowing that the astral is dreaming, deep sleep causal etc in almost all ancient Indian metaphysical schools.

You still haven't admitted that.

And that's not a hypothetical error, like you are asking me to find a non-hypothetical admittance of error for.

See the difference, my brother?

I am simply not attached to any concepts, beliefs or public identities like you are inferring here to not apologise when in error.

This is your fantasy. Pay more attention to reality than your own inner fantasies.

The rest of your post?

Blah!

If at any point you wish to ditch the vacuous hypothetical posturing and discuss your actual inner experiences and other basis for your beliefs, some of which you now contradict yourself,THAT would be a genuinely informative & interesting conversation.

Cheers!

[Spence Tepper]

Hi Manjit
You wrote
"Well, until he changed his, errrm, beyond-mind-mind and then claimed it was actually Darshan Singh was the "true successor".

Who is Darshan Singh?

Is it possibly in this point you may be thinking of someone else?

[manjit]

"Who is Darshan Singh?"

Errr, Kirpal Singh's son, and one of his many claimed successors.

Wow, trying to find a link to a bio or something, I found this!:

http://www.kirpalsingh-falsesuccessors.org/

Hahahaha.

I love Radhasoami.

[Spence Tepper]

Hi Manjit
You may have misunderstood...

You made this remark in reference to me...

""Well, until he changed his, errrm, beyond-mind-mind and then claimed it was actually Darshan Singh was the "true successor".

But I have never commented about Darshan Singh, as I know nothing about them.

You must have confused me with someone else... I imagine the dead bodies you think you have slayed all begin to look the same at some point ;)

[manjit]

Hi Spence - you may have misunderstood my very quickly typed comment.

I was referring to Aaron Stephens (or whatever) with that comment - it was he who first claimed Ajaib was Kirpal's "true" successor, according to his inner visionary experience "beyond mind".....only to later change that to Darshan Singh.

I was not referring to you, so that was a misunderstanding.

"I imagine the dead bodies you think you have slayed"

Ahh, I think that, do I? You imagine that, do you?

Interesting. You're inner master is on fire!!

The fire of delusion!

:)

[Spence Tepper]

Hi Manjit

You wrote
"I am simply not attached to any concepts, beliefs or public identities like you are inferring here to not apologise when in error."

And then you wrote
"Baba Faqir Chand is the greatest Radhasoami guru of all time, hands down and without any even close compare."

Too easy....

[manjit]

Well, despite several responses from Spence, I can see this discussion (with him) is going nowhere beyond avoidance, diversion & psychological projections & transference upon my person, seeking for errrors where they don't exist, even going so far as requesting real-life admittances for hypothetical errors, whilst ignoring a whole litany of real & specified errors Spence has made etc etc.

Joking aside (and all those comments are jokes, excercises in avoiding the real questions!) Again I bring this back to a very serious question that very clearly Spence does not wish to address as it is too uncomfortable for him......despite this being the ONLY thing of ANY REAL importance in all these discussions of RS, RSSB, Gurinder etc.

The nature and "reality" of the various forms of "inner experience", and how we as human beings interpret, frame them conceptually etc.

In my (considerable :) knowledge & experience, followers of RS tend to be amongst the most ignorant of followers of any schools of mystical experience. They also tend to be the most egotistical (hence the proliferation of "Perfect Living Masters", anyone with any delusional inner fantasy can easily believe they are a "Satguru", and the magical "5 names test" is clearly a crock of shit, otherwise these delusions wouldn't occur!), a real heirarchical structure, a game of zero-sum mysticism.

I do not find it a coincidence that complete secrecy surrounding "Inner experiences" is the norm in RS.......between the great emphasis and pride placed upon "inner experiences" (always dualistic and visionary in nature, in RS, ie. maya or illusion :) and it's concomittant hyper-ego-inflation, and the wide variety of absurd, potentially dangerous and oft-times proven plain wrong beliefs that are imparted by these "inner experiences", I can completely understand why complete secrecy is the norm!

If everyone started openly talking about their experiences, perhaps it would become obvious what we are dealing with is mental fantasies fleshed out by "astral consciousness" (which, by whichever label or conceptual framework you place it in, EXISTS, at least experientially)?

It is a product of this fantasy to believe ultimate reality.....not just this entire, vast, unimaginable physical universe, and through all-time, but the entire (alleged :) metaphysical universe in which this physical is meant to be a mere grain of sand.....is actually ALL centred around, ie. came into being purely for.......some Singh from Punjab whose followers "smuggled" expensive watches into India for him.

I am reminded of this excellently insightful gif - I feel the final frame should be replaced with "don't eat eggs" or "do 5 word simran and escape this hell" or perhaps "smuggle expensive watches for me"........

https://imgur.com/gallery/rPv2g7s

May I suggest we really, really need to examine these absurd narrative interpretations of dualistic visionary experience?

People who had visions of Gurinder's flawless "divinity" but are now questioning him, need to describe their experiences & potential explanations for what is really going on here (beyond simply MORE imagined dualistic narratives). In that way we truly unravel the nature of the phenomena experienced within RS, the nature of "inner experience" in general, and hence consciousness, "self", reality etc

We need a new, more open comparative of mystical experiences and their intepretations, not more hiding behind vacuous and made up concepts to defend ourselves from this real, hard work of truly unraveling of our (delusional) beliefs, concepts, sense of self, identity etc.

Of course, one could simply stop following an outdated, outmoded, medieval system of concepts like RS, and move to more wiser, holistic, "full-spectrum" "paths" such as, perhaps, certain schools of Buddhism, which are infinitely more aware of the delusions and fantasies which can arise during meditation, rather than seeking and nurturing them like RS does!

I've now spent about 4 hours online, which is probably 3 hours 50 mins more than I wanted to. So I will hear leave with quotes from the truly great teacher Nisargadatta, talking here specifically about Radhasoami.

I will suggest there has never been a more wise teaching from WITHIN RS schools than this from an uneducated outside (asides from Baba Faqir Chand). Allegedly, of course :)

Bask in the wisdow that transcends dogma, doctrine, cults, gurus, concepts, beliefs and delusional visions and fantasies:

"Q: I read a book by a yogi on his experiences in meditation. It
is full of visions and sounds, colours and melodies; quite a
display and a most gorgeous entertainment..........of what use is
such a book to me?
A: Of no use, probably, since it does not attract you. Others may be
impressed. People differ. But all are faced with the fact of their
own existence. 'I am' is the ultimate fact; 'Who am I'? is the
ultimate question to which everybody must find an answer.
Q: The same answer?
M: The same in essence, varied in expression. Each seeker accepts,
or invents, a method which suits him, applies it to himself with
some earnestness and effort, obtains results according to his
temperament and expectations, casts them into a mould of words,
builds them into a system, establishes a tradition and begins to
admit others into his 'school of Yoga'. It is all built on memory
and imagination. No such school is valueless, nor indispensable; in
each one can make progress up to the point when all desire for
progress must be abandoned to make further progress possible. Then
all schools are given up, all efforts cease; in solitude and
darkness the last step is made which ends ignorance and fear forever.
The true teacher, however, will not imprison his disciple in a
prescribed set of ideas, feelings and actions; on the contrary, he
will show him patiently the need to be free from all ideas and set
patterns of behaviour, to be vigilant and earnest and go with life
wherever it takes him, not to enjoy or suffer, but to understand and
learn.
Under the right teacher, the disciple learns to learn, not to
remember and obey. Satsang, the company of the noble, does not
mould, it liberates. Beware of all that makes you dependant. Most of
the so-called 'surrenders to the Guru' end in disappointment, if
not in tragedy. Fortunately, an earnest seeker will disentangle
himself in time, wiser for the experience."
page 457

"Q: ......We have a guru of the Radha-Soami faith....."

A: You have met many anchorites and ascetics, but a fully realised
man conscious of his divinity (svarupa) is hard to find. Saints and
Yogis, by immense effort and sacrifices, acquire many miraculous
powers and can do much in the way of helping people and inspiring
faith, yet it does not make them perfect. It is not a way to
reality, but merely an enrichment of the false. All effort leads to
more effort........

......

The persons who after much effort and penance, have fulfilled their
ambitions and secured higher levels of experience, are usually
acutely conscious of their standing; they grade people into
hierarchies, ranging from the lowest non-achiever to the highest
achiever. To me all are equal.........."
I AM THAT, Chapter 64

Sri Nisargadatta Maharaj

[manjit]

Spence wrote: ""I am simply not attached to any concepts, beliefs or public identities like you are inferring here to not apologise when in error."

And then you wrote
"Baba Faqir Chand is the greatest Radhasoami guru of all time, hands down and without any even close compare."

Too easy...."

Ahh Spence, you are so transparent my friend, so transparent.....even if not to yourself.

Before I response, I will make it clear I will not respond any further to your comments as they're literally saying nothing of any note, wisdom or insight. They are very clearly simply emotive defences for the perceived slight to your ego from my original comment. Very, very obviously so.

Regarding your comment here....clearly descending into juvenile discussion mode as it has.......you are misrepresenting turns of phrase, tools made of language, hyperbole, and a general trickster-ish attitude you are patently unable to comprehend - with an "attachment".

If you were able to, and you actually knew anything about me, you would be able to parse that whole sentence down into meaningless gibberish - which is what I actually believe it to be.

What is a "greatest Radhasoami guru"? Is it an objective thing, or simply a statement of subjective preference with simulatenous awarness of the fact? It is like saying Roger Moore is the greatest James Bond of all time! Bro, don't know how to brake this to you, but James Bond isn't real mate. Neither are Radhasoami gurus as definied by RS dogma. In other words, whoever you imagine is the "greatest".

This is a complicated and nuanced subject, and those trapped within false i-dentities, within conceptual frameworks, within delusional dualistic visionary fantasies and phenomena will not be able to grasp the subtleties, imo. It is beyond absurd hearing religious people like yourself claim I am attached to concepts, dogmas or identities. And clearly a product of ego-hurt, nothing to do with "mysticism" at all.

Perhaps you would learn far, far, far more about yourself, i-dentity, reality and the illusoriness of concepts in general, than your long association with RS, which as far as I can tell has merely filled you with factually false concepts, delusionary visions and ideas, and a tendency to hide in the dark so noboby notices it (don't tell your inner experiences!)?

G'nite my brother.......my ego has had it's fill, it has no further need of all the preaching and attention you appear to need, day in and day out, regardless of which way they wind's blowing (is Gurinder Raja Janak, or is he Bernie Madoff today?). I'll come back in a few months when I need another hit of that oh so sweet attention!

Cheers :)

[Arjuna]

@ Spencer - cast not pearls before swine as the Big Man once said.

You a good man and I can assure you nothing will come out of this.

The mind isn’t easy to beat or work with. And there are some ferocious minds at work here. Just be a good man as you are! These people are mind warriors and arm chair critics- avoid them and leave them to the world to deal with😀

[manjit]

Hi Arjuna,

You write to Spence (apparently about me, but across me rather than to me, which is odd for a big strong brave "military man" like yourself? :):

"And there are some ferocious minds at work here" "These people are mind warriors and arm chair critics"

Yes, indeed.

There are also people with a whole host of unexamined beliefs, ideas, psychological issues permeating their emotions, behaviour & general appreciation of life etc, who come here to spew patent nonsense as if it a deep insight born of deep inner exploration & wisdom.

Ah, that is Radhasoami for you. bIt tends to draw in all sort of people with all sorts of "issues".

Even sincere and genuine seekers!!

But, as Nisargadatta says about Radhasoami in the quote I provided above, "an earnest seeker will disentangle himself in time, wiser for the experience."

I tend to believe that is more true than many here would like to believe.

Those that remain tend to be religious minded sorts.

You know, the sorts who have a whole host of understood and therefore unexamined psychological issues that not only brought them to such a path with it's grandiose claims, but also kept them in it.

And now, like the Wize Niz Sayz, for many it has ended with "Beware of all that makes you dependant. Most of the so-called 'surrenders to the Guru' end in disappointment, if not in tragedy."

Cheers & g'nite!

[Arjuna]

@ manjit

Just looking out for Spencer that’s all.

I personally like your mind - it’s strong. I’m not into the strongman stuff - when you have seen what I have, that ego trip gets knocked out of you. More compassion these days. And besides Im on a diet so won’t be so big if it works!

Surrender to another! Not anymore. I decided to allow my demons to fight it amongst themselves years ago - rather than submit like a child to someone who claims they could help me in the life after.

I’m not really a follower of any guru - lost faith years ago! Just trying to survive on this rock hurtling through space and keeping people safe.

Night

[Spence Tepper]

Hi Arjuna!
Great advice.
It isn't personal.
Manjit looks at me and sees everthing wrong.
I am just a human being.
When you see people try to psychoanalize those with different beliefs it is painfully obvious that they simply hold different views and this is their way of making it OK.

And it is OK.

I don't know a thing about Faqir Chand. What I read didn't appeal to me. But I honor the fact that that's just my opinion, and I also honor Manjit's right to adore Mr. Chand. I honor anyone's sacred beliefs, including my own. And including Brian's Atheism. Brian is a hard ass warrior. He's honed his sword. Anyone who wants to engage him in the subject of Truth should think twice.

As for internal experience, it's a daily thing.

The other day in meditation I was looking at the moon. It is beautiful. I just sat there looking at the craters and the brilliant whiteness of the moonlight.

I thought casually as I listened to Shabd enjoying the moon, is this in Spirit? Or a remarkable HD creation of the mind? And then that thought evaporated and I was in that experience feeling great that I could see this.

It is a definite stage in meditation. Swami Ji got it right as my experiences confirm for me. Those last two words are the operative ones. This is subjective experience.

But that doesn't explain what exactly it is. It is a real part of the brain / mind experience that can be accessed through the meditation.

And so when I meet up with Maharaji daily, and occasionally with Baba Ji, it's the same. Nothing in this world has any bearing on that one. And obviously, there can be a huge apparent disconnect between that world and this one. But nothing in that world invalidates the facts of this one.

You meet actors on their lunch break and they have wonderful interesting lives and are friendly and delightful. But when they go back to their rehearsal they are demons, heroes. It doesn't make sense to love or hate them for the role they must play, and when they fight each other bitterly on their stage play, but dote over each other affectionately offstage at lunch it's impossible to take sides, especially when you get to know them off stage.

But the roles they play on stage are real roles. Every character is as written. So when discussing the characters you discuss them in the context of their written lives.. When you watch the play you root for the hero and can't wait for justice to be served to the villain, what each did and the natural and appropriate consequences. You want the hero to be heroic. You want the villain to really be dark.

If one of them has the role to do something bad, the director's job and that of all the other characters is actually to help them move through the story as written with as much passion as possible.

So yes there can be two sides. The kind and loving actor off stage, and the dramatic role they play on stage. If the play is a tragedy we all want it to proceed tragically.. To be a great tragedy.

But it really has little to do with their friends and homelife.

[Spence Tepper]

Hi Manjit
You gave a quote I love very much and find completely truthful.

"The persons who after much effort and penance, have fulfilled their
ambitions and secured higher levels of experience, are usually
acutely conscious of their standing; they grade people into
hierarchies, ranging from the lowest non-achiever to the highest
achiever. To me all are equal.........."
I AM THAT, Chapter 64

Sri Nisargadatta Maharaj"

If you gain a higher perspective naturally, through the love of a good friend, as a gift, how can there be any pride or judgment of others?

A person sitting on a jet flying to Paris or Sacramento is the same. They gain no higher or lower status because of the places they visit. They are along for the ride. A good passenger feels that their trip to Sacramento is quite as wonderful as the one on their way to Paris. We can all be thankful. We are all bricks in the middle.

Then we are thankful to life,
To me all are equal. But not because we think we are special but because life is so special.

To me all are equal. We are all grains of sand. Some grains have their face to the sky, even when it gets dark.

They see the stars!

But they are right there with the other grains of sand, brothers and sisters all.

[Spence Tepper]

Hi Arjuna
Thanks for the thought.
It isn't personal.
Sometimes a person feels compelled to attack others in order to feel justified in holding their sacred views. To make them feel it's OK.

Well, it's OK.

A sacred view, a sacred teddy bear, a beloved hero and a much hated villain.

It's all OK.

If you think it's sacred, it is.

It's good to have something you hold as sacred. So long as it gives you strength to be flexible and kind, it IS sacred. No need to criticize anyone else's views. There's room for more than one opinion....

It's OK.

[Arjuna]

@ Spencer - stay strong and “eyes front” as they say in the Forces!

[Meditator]

I quote Mr Spence he posted in one of his previous Posts addressed to Mr Arjuna and I wish it to be true experienced in his real perfect conscious - subtle internal meditative experiences which he enjoys on daily basis:

"As for internal experience, it's a daily thing.

The other day in meditation I was looking at the moon. It is beautiful sat there looking at the craters and the brilliant whiteness of the moonlight.

I thought casually as I listened to Shabd enjoying the moon, is this in Spirit? Or a remarkable HD creation of the mind? And then that thought evaporated and I was in that experience feeling great that I could see this.

And so when I meet up with Maharaji daily, and occasionally with Baba Ji, it's the same. Nothing in this world has any bearing on that one. And obviously, there can be a huge apparent disconnect between that world and this one. But nothing in that world invalidates the facts of this one."

You infer about the disconnect between our present world circumstances/behaviour/etc and internal evenness of the spirits or astral/causal state of world as:

"You meet actors on their lunch break and they have wonderful interesting lives and are friendly and delightful. But when they go back to their rehearsal they are demons, heroes. It doesn't make sense to love or hate them for the role they must play, and when they fight each other bitterly on their stage play, but dote over each other affectionately offstage at lunch it's impossible to take sides, especially when you get to know them off stage."

I believe what you said to be truth without any polish or advantage RSSB owing to some bias but plain truth. But still to an outsider who is yet to become an insider the trust as is required even for the most devoted would be always slippery and bending somehow under such sharp turn of events and mysterious acts /behaviour of the Godfather. And for an insider of RSSB it has become even more difficult as He/She sees him with divine respect and divine love than earthly.

It also raises other pertinent question as to how only a very few out of millions initiated as you have become fortunate to have Him inside while others, may be with many more efforts, sincerity and all love besides covering almost their full lifetime are still struggling and had to become outsiders at the fag ends of their lives - losing faith and love for it. Could you enlighten us as to what percent chances are there for one to realise Him, if one practises daily for more than three hours continuously without shiver consistently over a period of time, say an year or a few years.

Who do you think may be held responsible if He does not appear to Him despite all this mediation sessions - Guru or Poor and blind helpless disciple searching for HIM inside( as we are told to reach HIM and only that much is reqd, later he will take care for rest of journey,,,). Will he/she not be discouraged. Will he/she not doubt the path. I wish your take on this before I ask you further on this fragile and wavy issue of meditation and world materials - we hanker after day and night including by Gurus who you meet inside. Perhaps I wish you plead for us - our agony and helplessness in pulling on with paradoxes.

Isn't it a Paradox of nature thrown upon satsangis or devout seekers of most of sects in India as some grand plan of God in current times that if you believe in this upside down you may enter his Kingdom otherwise if you go by truth and therefore, distrust you will be a fall guy as Mr Brian and others.

Really getting more confusing than settling somewhere!

[Spence Tepper]

Hi Mediator
I very much appreciate what you wrote. In the heart of a difficult time is an opportunity to place your happiness upon a firmer footing.

When Baba Ji speaks and you say "Oh yes, that makes perfect sense," and you feel a desire to meditate no one can give you more than that. And then you mediate and with singular love, you gain confirmation in one form or another. Your experience can change instantly, simply through the purity and simplicity of your love.

Baba Ji's misadventures is another private matter, or public matter involving other people. It really has nothing to do with your development or the power of your meditation, and the role of Baba Ji within.

As to his other activities, they are all part of Karma in this world. No one should pretend they are anything other than what they are. Other people have the job of bringing forth the facts, and there is nothing wrong with reviewing them. At some point you may draw your own conclusions if you like.

But these are completely separate from the power and truthfulness of your meditation.

And therefore there is no need to get upset, to worry or get angry. If Baba Ji goes to jail for masterminding an incredible series of corporate robberies then it will all happen exactly as Baba Ji elected, just as we often experience the natural results of our choices.

It takes nothing from your work and his partnership, but we shouldn't pretend it didn't happen or that somehow anyone should not be responsible for the damage they may have caused.

If you can keep these two things separate, all is good.

As for meditation, Swami Ji gave great advice to Sawan Singh when he wrote that Sawan should not get up from meditation until he had experienced at least a moment of pure bliss.

That's great advice because with a little effort anyone can have that happiness in meditation. And that happiness is a blessing over our entire life.

Make it a daily rule. You are only asking your mind to allow your soul a few moments of glorious harmony, bliss, and the peace that surpasses understanding. That can happen very soon, weeks, months at most, with a little sincere effort. Then you won't care or worry about a lot of unimportant stuff. You will be too happy for that. But you won't have to deny facts then, and you won't be disturbed by them.

[Spence Tepper]

Hi Mediator
You made a comment I had a second thought about
You wrote
"It also raises other pertinent question as to how only a very few out of millions initiated as you have become fortunate to have Him inside while others, may be with many more efforts, sincerity and all love besides covering almost their full lifetime are still struggling and had to become outsiders at the fag ends of their lives - losing faith and love for it. Could you enlighten us as to what percent chances are there for one to realise Him, if one practises daily for more than three hours continuously without shiver consistently over a period of time, say an year or a few years."

Brian is a great example. Would he have become as fierce a lion for truth with anything less than Baba Ji's tantrum?

Brian is remarkable. You don't get there raised in luxury. His powers are truly fine.

We are all here to do work. At some point we are no longer useful and we get to go home. You may look at internal experience not as an achievement but just a condition. The veil that kept the downward flow of attention into work and achievement has worn thin, and is falling apart.

[Spence Tepper]

Hi Meditator
You asked
"Who do you think may be held responsible if He does not appear to Him despite all this mediation sessions"

That would be God. If you are asking to see God and don't that's His fault. There is no one else to blame. You carry no blame. But you do have a responsibility to use your voice. In these matters that would be in His temple within. Your inner voice. Complain loudly in His house, in the language of Simran. Make it your job. He deserves eternal blame, so spend as much time as you can letting Him know how you feel in the language of Simran. Let Him have it as often as possible.

You wrote
"- Guru or Poor and blind helpless disciple searching for HIM inside( as we are told to reach HIM and only that much is reqd, later he will take care for rest of journey,,,). Will he/she not be discouraged. Will he/she not doubt the path."

Yes doubt is very logical. Makes good sense. But if you can't live with the idea of being tricked by life in this way see my advice above.

There must be A God if only so that you can go inside and give Him the full load of shit he deserves for doing so much harm to so many.

That idea that God doesn't exist is just plain cruel. No he's there and you can call Him out!

You wrote

"I wish your take on this before I ask you further on this fragile and wavy issue of meditation and world materials"

I'm not sure why you think it's fragile.
God is full of shit and your only job, and may I say it is entirely satisfying, is to return all the shit to it's rightful owner. Meditation is perfect for that.

Meditation is the best shovel.

You wrote

"- we hanker after day and night including by Gurus who you meet inside. Perhaps I wish you plead for us - our agony and helplessness in pulling on with paradoxes."

I'm not sure why you think I'm closer to Master than you are. That's not correct.

And I'm not qualified to give you advice. As you can see by the advice I have given above. Which, neverthrless, I conpletely endorse.

Yes Gurinder is a thief inside and out. So he deserves the full dressing down within.

For you to see God everywhere even through the agony, and for you to find peace within, regardless of whether you understand it or not, that's your job. That's what meditation does. But that can't happen until you and God have an intervention where He must listen to the full litany of horse shit he had loaded onto your back.

So if you need to give God all the shit he's put you through, do it. The only sin is giving God a moment's rest. Don't do that. Be all over His ass like a diaper and never let up until He does His part.

[Spence Tepper]

And one more point, Meditator.

Atheism is just a ploy by God to avoid His responsibility. Don't let God get away with that chicken shit. You broke it you fix it, God!!

[Meditator]

Good Morning Mr Spence.

I send my respects to you, Mr Spencer for your elaborate response which was very much requested and anticipated for your active conduct on this forum. Thanks vey much.

Nevertheless it clears out the muck and shit to some extent with some sense of divine logics and considering world as live theatre that has been running on for time immemorial as repeatedly endorsed in your posts (not anyway comparable to worldly logics and human common sense which sees it as nonsense display and therefore the trouble for not-so-advanced unfortunate souls as of now) that has been thrown over and over again towards a Saint whose sainthood has been questioned by some of his immediate close disciples as also by his mystery acts and behaviour and words, widely known for most of us - not befitting His divine stature and power considering your claim as also that of a few others who have joined discussions every now and then.

Actually your take seems to suggest that worldly acts or behaviour or intentions in this theatre by a Perfect Saint has hardly any bearing on his divine power and access to the other worlds simultaneously and we are in safe hands if we believe so and must not leave the trust and attachment and efforts to reach Him. These are ephemeral acts which will pass irrespective of whatever be its consequences for Him for which He alone is responsible but His divine Authority will remain unquestionable for eternity- beyond life and death.

But say, if we also do more or less similar acts. behaviour with intended objectives of greed, ego etc then would we be qualified to enter the kingdom of God - our eternal home. I think that perhaps not, for we are yet to reveal Him inside and therefore we may not be playful with the fire in hands while He can dodge the fire effects for he is an Adept.

Anyways your hypothesis which may be your empirical endorsement as well for some would require to be accepted with again plain trust on you now in place of Gurus of RSSB whose doctrine you second at a disciple's level - one among us.

Regards

[Spence Tepper]

Hi Meditator
Everyone has a fantastic temple inside themselves.
It's a great place, and anything that keeps you from going there is bad for you.

And anything, and anyone who inspires you to go there, flaws and all, is your best friend. But the point is to meet them there, not here.

And you can then tell them how pissed of you are, how blistering mad you are that they causally threw these illusions on the road.

And Gurindar might tell you, that "Hey, whatever it takes right? But you are here! Thank God you are here now!"

Why Gurinder would be so excited to see me there acting angry as a confused dog, is beyond me.

[Dungeness]

Why Gurinder would be so excited to see me there acting angry as a confused dog, is beyond me.

Because you were wagging your tail at the same time... ? ;)

[Spence Tepper]

Hi Dungeness!
;)

[Meditator]

Hi Mr Spence. A very good evening.

Your inspiring posts reflect lots of optimism as if everything divine is just a step away and you seem to suggest that even flaws or illusions act as bonus points for seekers on the path which perhaps make you even more acceptable for the true Being -the Almighty. Your remarks suggest this.

'Everyone has a fantastic temple inside themselves.
It's a great place, and anything that keeps you from going there is bad for you.

And anything, and anyone who inspires you to go there, flaws and all, is your best friend. But the point is to meet them there, not here.'

Actually some of us as I know from their posts had been over jealous, overcautious and most dedicated and should have been all loving continuously so as to be propelled without a barrier on the divine path but the issue has not been much of the divine progress but the 'flaws' , 'illusions', etc that you mention have not proved bonuses for us and rather opposite. Since the matter is out in the open for quite a few years now such bonuses would have made some of us cross over to Him by now due to His extra grace in trying times.

I believe perhaps some of us should have reached Him by now propelled that much extra by the bonus points with each observable flaw or illusion blocking the seekers over the path due to growing and observable infirmities which have their origin in the theatrics - none of bigger issues to be acknowledged by a poor seeker of truth who anyways is going to die a few days , months or years away- all helplessly or He has no choice but to accept what has been offered as modified package - inclusive of renewed definition of Faith.

What I seem to suggest such flaws and illusions and distrust both in the disciple or even in the Path or Guru actually removes the energy / thrill / zealousness from treading the path with a strong backbone on which we rest for most of our times while on the move. And therefore all the discussed issues - flaws, illusions etc as you state them, had a reverse effect on the seekers of truth on this Path than these would have pushed them further to embrace the Path more firmly.

In one of my initial posts I wished that may my Guru reveal Himself to many of us - reeling in agony and frustrations and negativity due to such divine turn of events in the path and of which we have no control or reason to believe optimistically. But because we have not crossed the threshold inside - reached the other territory in the inner regions we are helpless and lifeless and some of us may have labelled themselves as atheists now. Why? because they do not think there is enough spiritual material in the Guru. Either It would have been better if we could have revealed Him a bit early (when the Path or Guru was free from earthly theatrical flaws or illusions etc ) so as to have ironed out automatically any misgivings about the Guru or the Path now.

I have read extensively about Gurus of the past and ancient times. They had been the live role models for their disciples ( both in this world and divine authority) and in fact they inspired me to be on the Path and accept the Guru which I still presume to be Perfect till otherwise proven because of the lineage of RSSB Saints He represent.

I got into this forum just to fill in the dots/gaps which became inadvertently - get help from fellow RSSB followers or Ex ones to fill them but came to understand that these earthly gaps on the Path are imaginary and should not bother you if and only if one wishes to reach Him and which have nothing to do with other real Worlds - the astral or causal as it has been endorsed that there is real disconnect between the two.

I take your revealed Truth about present RSSB Gurus as true but it would require tremendous assumption but I feel the disciples of Gurus in earlier times must have been at ease in reposing their faiths with their Gurus and therefore their early rise.

It is therefore much more trying times for the disciples now than before if the scheme of things as planned for now by the Almighty - here Guru Himself is like that for us while you have no choice but to not to reason the unreasonable.

Regards.

[Spence Tepper]

Hi Meditator
Yes, you can blame the times if you like, the distances we live from our Teacher, etc...

But if you take a look and ask yourself, "what is the reason to adopt any system of belief?"

It could be fear. Death comes to all of us.
But it might be love of progress.

Let progress be your religion.
Let kindness be your worship.
Accept nothing blindly, but see it for its utility to your own efforts.
Grow the atmosphere within yourself for inner progress. You have access to that place all the time. Sit in the darkness and enjoy it. It's a good place to be. Light comes to visit. But first you must honor that place within yourself, your true and only place. It is far more valuable even than a perceived notion of the Guru.

To the extent that believing in Guru's perfection becomes a crutch, that may feel wonderful, instant salvation. But in order for you to do the work necessary Guru Himself must dismantle that negative effect of complacency which also leads to ego, that we are better than others, we are saved, they are not, etc, etc... And all that results in poor and uneven practice. It becomes a barrier and has to be burned down.

A mighty wind extinguishes a tiny flame. But it Inflates a large flame into an inferno.

Let your determination to find the truth within yourself be that flame.

And again, look at Brian. He is a burning flame. Nothing can separate him from the facts. Knowing he is human like you and I, still he allows no illusion to intervene between his beloved Truth.

Be that undeterred in your commitment to your own progress.

"Barn's Burned Down
Now I can see the Moon!"
- Alan Watts, Zen Flesh Zen Bones