Allegedly, this is an alleged blog post about allegations

Here at the Church of the Churchless we admire humor, especially when it is directed at oh-so-serious religious believers. 

So I'm pleased to share this comment by Spence Tepper, who wrote it as a properly amused response to someone who was upset by me not using "alleged" in each and every sentence I wrote about a criminal complaint filed against Gurinder Singh Dhillon, the guru of Radha Soami Satsang Beas.

I've corrected a few alleged typos in the comment that was allegedly written by Tepper.

Hi Michael.

You wrote "In case he decides to delete that blog post, I have taken a screenshot of his words as I’m sure they will be helpful if there is a defamation lawsuit."

For real? Really?

Let's just say the alleged you allegedly took an alleged screen shot just in case Brian's alleged words are allegedly deleted, should an alleged lawsuit for alleged defamation arise, as it apparently, but only allegedly, has arisen in your very alleged mind.

I hope Michael is able to laugh at this, because he's been way too serious about criticizing me for writing that the guru made death threats against his cousin, Malvinder Singh, without adding "allegedly."

Of course, the blog post where I first reported the criminal complaint was titled Gurinder Singh Dhillon, the RSSB guru, is accused of making death threats. But I guess Michael wanted an "alleged" thrown in somewhere in addition to the "accused."

And Michael wasn't satisfied that in the post itself I used "allegations" several times to describe the complaint. Well, allegedly the blog post contains that word. 

I just wish religious believers were as zealous in using the word in describing their faiths. It'd be great if Christians said, "Allegedly, Jesus died on the cross for our sins," if Muslims said, "Allegedly, the Koran is the holy book of Allah," and if RSSB devotees said, "Allegedly, the guru is God in human form."

Stephen Colbert is pleased with this post, at least.

Comments

[Sonya]

You just made my evening. LOL. It's 9pm on the West Coast but hopefully our friends in India will wake up with a sense of humor and have a nice laugh in the morning...

[Alleged Osho Robbins]

We all are allegedly sinners according to Christianity, because an alleged Adam (surname allegedly unknown) allegedly listened to his alleged wife rather than to some alleged god, and committed the alleged heinous crime of allegedly eating an alleged fruit of an alleged tree allegedly called the tree of the alleged knowledge of alleged good and alleged evil.

Allegedly we are somehow related to that alleged incident that allegedly happened an alleged 4000 or more years ago.

Allegedly we are sinners now and allegedly need to be allegedly saved by an alleged Jesus who allegedly was crucified for our alleged sins.
Allegedly this is how an alleged god spends his alleged days; by seeing if we believe this absurd story. If we qualify as being gullible enough to believe, then we are allegedly saved from an alleged hell fire.
Allegedly this is a sign of alleged intelligence.
People who believe this alleged incident are called Christians and are alleged to have a small degree of alleged intelligence, at least allegedly.
Allegedly yours
An alleged osho Robbins signing off, allegedly at least.

[Dungeness]

who wrote it as a properly amused response to someone who was upset by me not using "alleged" in each and every sentence I wrote about a criminal complaint filed against Gurinder Singh Dhillon, the guru of Radha Soami Satsang Beas.

Every sentence? Hardly. Several Churchless posts affirmatively
state GSD had made death threats. These serious charges weren't
framed as "Credible evidence now exists that GSD's attorney has
sent a tape containing death threats to Malvinder Singh."

These posts can't be called libelous but some qualification would
have made a fairer lead-in. Embedding the word "alleged" in a
later paragraph is tenuous at best. (Noted: language to the
effect that charges need to be proven in court is present in a
newer post. Good.)

Sure, it's a blog and not serious journalism but such strong,
unqualified prose addressing weighty criminal matters
diminishes the blog's credibility and exposes an extremist
agenda.

In this case, a claim that a unverifed tape from GSD's atty
(and who knows who else's), without forensic confirmation,
is being used to suggest GSD is guilty of a death threat. It
verges on conspiracy theory. It doesn't care who gets hurt
in the process.

[Dungeness]

who wrote it as a properly amused response to someone who was upset by me not using "alleged" in each and every sentence I wrote about a criminal complaint filed against Gurinder Singh Dhillon, the guru of Radha Soami Satsang Beas.

Every sentence? Hardly. Several Churchless posts affirmatively
state GSD had made death threats. These serious charges weren't
framed as "Credible evidence now exists that GSD's attorney has
sent a tape containing death threats to Malvinder Singh."

These posts can't be called libelous but some qualification would
have made it a fairer lead-in. Embedding the word "alleged" in a
later paragraph is tenuous at best. (Noted: language to the
effect that charges need to be proven in court is present in a
newer post. Good.)

Sure, it's a blog and not serious journalism but such strong,
unqualified prose addressing weighty criminal matters
diminishes the blog's credibility and exposes an extremist
agenda.

In this case, a claim that a unverifed tape from GSD's atty
(and who knows who else's), without forensic confirmation,
is being used to suggest GSD is guilty of a death threat. It
verges on conspiracy theory. It doesn't care who gets hurt
in the process.

[Dungeness]

who wrote it as a properly amused response to someone who was upset by me not using "alleged" in each and every sentence I wrote about a criminal complaint filed against Gurinder Singh Dhillon, the guru of Radha Soami Satsang Beas.

Every sentence? Hardly. Several Churchless posts affirmatively
state GSD had made death threats. These serious charges weren't
framed as "Credible evidence now exists that GSD's attorney has
sent a tape containing death threats to Malvinder Singh."

These posts can't be called libelous but some qualification would
have made it a fairer lead-in. Embedding the word "alleged" in a
later paragraph is tenuous at best. (Noted: language to the
effect that charges need to be proven in court is present in a
newer post. Good.)

Sure, it's a blog and not serious journalism but such strong,
unqualified prose addressing weighty criminal matters
diminishes the blog's credibility and exposes an extremist
agenda.

In this case, a claim that a unverifed tape from GSD's atty
(and who knows who else's), without forensic confirmation,
is being used to suggest GSD is guilty of a death threat. It
verges on conspiracy theory. It doesn't care who gets hurt
in the process.

[Me too]

The news reported that Malvinder said he has a tape of death threats he received from GSD via GSD's attorney. That's all over the news... you can't accuse every single major news outlet in India of being "fake news" or creating a conspiracy theory over this, can you?

But I do agree. It is very serious.

[Sonya #can’t sleep]

On another serious note (sorry... I know this is supposed to be a lighthearted post).

I’m the same age as Malav. I’ve seen Charan Singh twice. I’ve seen Gurinder more than I care to count. And yes, I am very hard on him but trust me it’s like water off a duck’s back. His ego is impenetrable. We go together like oil and water. He accused me of having first world problems. I think he assumes all Americans are somehow more privileged than he was before he became the current RSSB guru and he doesn’t quite understand or empathize with our problems. Anyway, yes he grew up in a rough environment or so he says. Yes, his father told him he would never amount to anything and yes he hates being compared to Charan Singh (OK now I’m laughing for some reason). But I don’t claim to understand Indian culture anymore than he understands my culture... or whatever he imagines it is. I can’t exactly say that he’s soulless... so there is probably good within him somewhere. I’m sure there are some people that he truly cares about but he’s quick to judge and the statements he’s made to me indicate he doesn’t have a clue about me. So... there goes the whole belief that he’s GIHF. We have a mutual disdain for each other (whether he would admit it or not—he’s a Leo, too proud to admit that someone actually got to him)... and yes, based on my current belief system I should work on that. I should ignore all of this. The problem is I don’t want to see him hurt anyone the way that he hurt me. And that’s why I jumped in when the news came out about Malav.

[One Initiated]

Brian,

You did not know the limit of spending $700 odd instead of $900 odd or you did that allegedly.
Well, you maintained you did not know, how would you prove?
Can you prove what was in your mind?
Like, you've always asked the followers and those who experienced?
Tell me, can you prove that it was not in your mind?
And if it was allegedly, it was a criminal act - wasn't it?

Back to the future:
You mentioned too much about being a messenger. Are you serious?
You are merely copy pasting stuff which is there on much more credible sites as compared to your blog.
Take it with a pinch of salt, your blog is more of a forum maintained by a single authority because you are paying it and you do not have a rules of promoting who frequents for being another moderator like the common forums practice.
You are messenger, of what ? the Bloomberg articles ? Congrats!

For example, there is nothing new about the Singh brothers gig - it would have been interesting had it not been presented here: https://rssb.org/articles.html

So essentially you are still cashing your past association with RSSB and repeatedly pasting same articles and stories and generating the page-views and collecting comments. Congrats again!

[Michael]

No matter how Brian argues this, the fact remains that he stated something that hasn't been proven yet, stated it as if it were a fact and then drew conclusions based on those "facts". Here is exactly what Brian wrote in his Feb 19th post:

"Actually, he isn't even at the level of a normally imperfect human being. It's outrageous that Gurinder Singh would sell his position as RSSB guru to Shivinder Singh in exchange for being forgiven the massive amount of money owed to companies once controlled by Shivinder and his brother Malvinder, who are Gurinder Singh's cousins.

What kind of a supposedly "spiritual" guru is willing to do this? Only a hugely greedy one.

Most ordinary people have a conscience, scruples, a line they won't cross. But Gurinder Singh has made death threats against Malvinder Singh, and offered up his position as guru for a lot of money."

Going back to the example I provided yesterday this would be the equivalent of me publishing in a blog "Most people do not break into their neighbors house to steal a TV. But Brian broke into his neighbors house and stole a TV. What kind of a person does this? Only an immoral person with no sense of right and wrong. Most people wouldn't cross that line. But not Brian. He steals property that does not belong to him."

Of course after being confronted about the fact that this is merely an accusation, then I would conveniently say well this is America and I have freedom of speech to say whatever I believe when in fact I didn't state it as my belief but rather painted it as if it were fact.

[Dungeness]

The news reported that Malvinder said he has a tape of death threats he received from GSD via GSD's attorney. That's all over the news... you can't accuse every single major news outlet in India of being "fake news" or creating a conspiracy theory over this, can you?

I didn't read many Indian news outlets but I assume few, if any
of them (other than "National Enquirer" style tabloids), framed
the story to suggest GSD himself had sent death threats.

[One Initiated]

Well Michael,
there is no doubt that these accusations by Malv are only pleasing to those who are whole and sole negative towards RSSB and the Master and more or less already have passed their own judgement against the Master. Also to those who still feel connected with Hazur but have fallen prey to their mind against the current Master.

This website and the likes from the other haters are the reason to propel the rumours of someone being a successor - that's an outright lamest thing to read, even for me to right at this point - for the sake of replying I am writing.
And it couldn't be more cheap for Malv, carrying on these rumours, crafting the absurd accusations and bring this as the part of the sheet.

Those who write on these lines and speak on these lines are far far away from love. For a disciple it's the greatest misery in his life to witness his master leave him/her. he can never imagine that and never ever want to consider that situation in his lifetime. Adigranth explains this in enormous depth.

Whatever has been written or spoken on these lines are just a mind crafted stuff from haters.
If anyone looks closely to the accusations from Malv, they are simply absurd - as if he was sitting like a puppet all these years witnessing his younger brother to transact.

[s*]

´Well Michael,
there is no doubt that these accusations by Malv are only pleasing to those who are whole and sole negative towards RSSB and the Master and more or less already have passed their own judgement against the Master. Also to those who still feel connected with Hazur but have fallen prey to their mind against the current Master.´
........................................................................................................
This is soo untrue!
It has aslo nothing to do with hate.
It is all about confusion about their path,who one sees is not as balanced as it seemed to be or one thought it to be.
There is sadness in that,maybe you understand that.
Maybe not.
It is sad to loose a path where the heart was in.
Some fall earlier some later from their path.
But do not think this is easy.
It has nothing to do with hate..but to seek for oneselves whatś happening and how to balans again.

It is very painfull to look at all the sufferring it causes.

[jay]

From your February 23rd post: "Yet what are devotees supposed to do WHEN THERE'S PLENTY OF EVIDENCE that the current RSSB guru, Gurinder Singh Dhillon, not only is far from perfect, but in some respects doesn't even rise to the level of an ordinary decent human being? Scroll through the posts in this blog's Radha Soami Satsang Beas category, AND YOU'LL SEE THAT EVIDENCE."

in the next paragraph you write: "The guru has made death threats against his cousin."

But there is no evidence offered in the news story the Gurinder made death threats. There's just Malvinder's claim that this happened. Neither Malvinder or anyone else has produced evidence of death threats. Any evidence at all.

I'm not an RSSB initiate and have no interest in being an apologist for any guru who hurts people. I've long been a critic of gurus. But I think the cause of criticism isn't helped by stating allegations as if they're facts.

[Sonya]

It’s “Malav”... that’s what GSD and Chris call him. 😉

[Brian Hines]

Jay, Malvinder says he has recordings that prove the RSSB guru made the death threats. Think about this. Why would Malvinder and his attorneys make a false assertion about this in their criminal complaint? Likely, the recordings exist.

[Sonya]

Malvinder said he has tapes of the death threats and will produce them when needed. That’s kind of how we do things here in the US as well. There are many reasons why evidence is held back and not released to the public.

That said, I remember the first time I visited the Dera... at the first evening, the first questioner asked GSD about his health because GSD had missed a meeting and a sevadar had said GSD was absent because of his health. ANYWAY, getting to my point—GSD said, “No... [big sigh, head turn] one needs to learn how to say things without saying them.” I was reminded of that as I watched Cohen’s testimony yesterday.

I’ll just wait til the next round of the Singh Saga news coverage comes out to make anymore comments because this is starting to feel like High School.

I imagine GSD is trying to patch things up with Malav right now to keep this media circus from getting anymore out of control.

[Sonya]

What I wouldn’t give for a thought-provoking article on atheism right now...

[Michael]

This is hilarious! It appears as if Brian is saying just because someone says something that it’s likely to be true. I’m so glad we have an innocent until proven guilty system in this country. If it was up to Brian everyone who had a criminal accusation leveled up against them would be in jail based on his ridiculous reasoning. After all, why would someone make a false assertion (aka a lie)?

[Spence Tepper]

Hi Brian
We're in that circling-the-drain time, where things get heated and people get mad at each other... All because the light of these events is simply too bright, to glaring. The implications are devastating, to say the least.

The evidence is so overwhelming, over one Billion smoking guns pointing to the same individual... Naturally reactivity is understandable. And a measure of how close the tiny flame of illusion in this one front is about to flame out.

I believe right now, you are doing the work you were raised to do. You are in your purpose now, Brian. In this very moment.

[Brian Hines]

Michael, what I’m saying is that I believe the guru is guilty of crimes based on the available evidence. I’m a blogger, not a judge or jury.

[Sonya]

I absolutely love quotes for some reason--am always collecting them and putting on my walls. I was going through a list of my favorite quotes, collecting all of the ones written by confirmed atheists when it dawned on me that we're arguing about facts with RhadaSoamis who believe that GSD is God in Human Form. All of the sudden it hit me how absurd this whole back and forth argument is... what proof is there of GSD's divinity?? RhadaSoamis have a completely different Play Book when it comes proving things. They are comfortable with blind faith. So, how do you have an intelligent argument with someone that believes GSD is travelling through the astral realms at will and is going to be there at the time of their death to take them "Home". How are they going to prove that in a court of law?

What are we doing here???

**********

BTW, here's that list of my favorite quotes from Atheists...

Aristophanes Greek dramatist.
“Shrines! Shrines! Surely you don’t believe in the gods. What’s your argument? Where’s your proof?

Friedrich Nietzsche German philosopher. (I named my first dog Nietzsche)
“Faith means not wanting to know what is true.”

William Pitt the Elder British prime minister.
“The only true divinity is humanity.”

Gene Roddenberry American television writer/creator of Star Trek.
“We must question the story logic of having an all-knowing, all-powerful God who creates faulty Humans and then blames them for his own mistakes.” (I like this one because of the "God who creates faulty Humans and then blames them for his mistakes"--that IS absurd!)

Margaret Sanger American birth control activist.
“No gods, no masters.”

Seneca Roman philosopher.
“Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and by the rulers as useful.”

Kurt Vonnegut American writer.
“Say what you will about the sweet miracle of unquestioning faith, I consider a capacity for it terrifying and absolutely vile.”

Oscar Wilde Anglo-Irish poet/novelist.
“To believe is very dull. To doubt is intensely engrossing.”

Frank Lloyd Wright American architect.
“I believe in God, only I spell it Nature.”

Xenophanes Greek philosopher.
“If oxen, lions, and horses had hands and could make fashion of art, they would fashion gods in their own image.”

Emile Zola French novelist.
“Civilization will not attain its perfection until the last stone from the last church falls on the last priest.”

[Sonya]

Sorry, that last post was a bit of a tangent.

@Spence, I wholeheartedly agree.

Michael, you believe Gurinder is God in hunan form, so the idea that he may have committed any sort of crime is completely off your radar. We should have just started from the get go and it would have ended any attempt to engage in a rational discussion.

[Osho Robbins]

Opinions, opinions, opinions.
Free to have, free to voice, but of no value.
Of course we can have an opinion about anything.
Does make it true; doesn't make it false; it just makes it an opinion.

An opinion is that persons version of how things really are. It is based on his or her past and the way they see things.

The opinion seems very real to the holder of the opinion. Almost indistinguishable from the truth.

Even truth is not a straightforward matter. For example, let say the matter goes to trial. The result of the trial does not determine the truth.

Plenty of guilty people are set free because of lack of firm evidence.
No guilty does not mean innocent; it just means not enough evidence to make a guilty verdict.
There are also plenty of innocent people behind bars.

So even the legal system does not tell you the truth. It just determines if the court has enough evidence to convict.

So we all make up our own version of the truth. That version appears reasonable to us. To others, their version appears to be the truth.

This applies even more to religious truths. To a Christian, Jesus really existed and really died for their alleged sins.
To an RSSB initiate Grinder really is god in human form even if he himself denies it. The denial is taken as a sign of humility, and further proof.

[Sonya]

@Osho

I actually agree completely with the truth of what you just said about opinions. May sound ironic but it’s “true”. Allegedly. ;-) I’m being sincere even though it may come across as sarcastic. It’s just sort of one big ball of irony... the human perspective.

OMG, and I don’t want to see a comment in reply about meditation being the absolute truth... 🙄🙄🙄 😂😂😂

[Arjuna]

@ Osho -

What is going through your head buddy? Do you believe in him?

I have read some comments from a few whack jobs here but they bore me!

I’m not sure about atheists and before they bore the pants of me - I ain’t sure about gurus either. Before you ask what I believe in.

Much respect

[One Initiated]

Denial is not the only proof, Osho, it's least of the kind. I wish everyone had their own proof which unfortunately can never be shared.

s*,

How serious and sincere a disciple would be if s/he is comparing someone like ram-rahim/asaram with the current Master?
And so when they do, they are innocent and childish and know nothing actually. They are already saved because of their innocence, however, they also lack experiencing the bliss while living.

Per Sarbachan, after being initiated - abusing the Master is of no use actually. If you wanted to go against HIM, you should have done it before getting initiated - that might have helped. Now it's just wastage of time and energy and this precious birth.

the trauma is there to those who unfortunately have not yet received the inner help.
the lovers are intact.

If you are not helping yourself, no Master can help you either.

If you are not connecting with your self, you will judge the Master on every smallest step. And this is the talk of billions - can derail the best of the disciples, let alone those who don't even sit on meditation daily.

[Tim Rimmer]

Hey Sonya

Great quote selection! I also especially liked what Gene Roddenberry had to say. The other day I was reading an interesting article in Nexus magazine entitled ‘The Refresh Rate of Reality’. I found it a bit hard on the brain as it attempts to link quite a number of perspectives: religious/philosophical/consciousness research in a scientific framework. I found one theory particularly interesting - the Doctrine of Continual Creation and the author refers to Brian’s old mate Plotinus to support it, (hope you don't mind the slight digression Brian).
Getting to a couple of good quotes. First from the paper:
“There is something essential about the ‘now’ which is outside the realm of science” (apparently Einstein but no source given).
And the one I really like from the editorial, “humans actually are a non-physical lifeform..” Now that's food for thought.
‘It’s life Jim but not as we know it!’ :-)
Best wishes

[Sonya]

Hi Tim,

I just finished reading ‘The Refresh Rate of Reality’. Yes, hard on the brain—pretty taxing. My mind is 🤯. I downloaded the article and will have to reread it several times more. But it reminded me of the potential creative power we all have. Personally, I believe in free will but we all have our own definitions of free will so that might not be the right word here.

To me, this sums up the most important part:

“New Thought classic The Science of Mind, argues that each moment does not depend upon another, except to the extent we believe it does. And that reality operates entirely deductively (top down), though modifiable by deep- seated belief and intention.

Of course, belief in this context refers to fixations at the deepest levels of the subconscious mind. Most of which we hold in common—as the current, generally accepted, description of the world, sometimes referred to as consensus reality.”

*****
Thanks for suggesting the article. Haven’t followed Nexus... maybe I should.

It also dawned on me while reading the article that I may be too attached to consensus reality—to the extent of pragmatically inhibiting the creative potential idealism offers. Idealism isn’t always practical but it’s part of our higher selves and probably should be given more consideration in both our personal and shared “realities”.

Now, on a less cerebral note: I’m as Libran as you can get—6 major planets in Libra with Scorpio rising. So, what that means is that (ironically) I’m INTENSELY driven to find balance and that makes me more pragmatic in general... as well as a tad skeptical/jaded at times. Of course, I blame the Scorpio rising for blind siding me and throwing me off balance when I least expect it. 😉 (See, I had to throw in that totally flakey astrology comment in just to balance out the quantum/calculus/wave particle jabber 😄).