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January 09, 2019

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A beautiful symbol of the trancience of our life''time''..
Sometimes it really enters inside us..especially now in older age..
And that it is ok.

It's to learn that it's not scary to change..

Yes, impermanence is the natural order of things. Creatures, us, planets, stars, galaxies – perhaps even the universe have cycles of birth, life and death – why do we think we are so different?

Thought is a double-edged sword. Thinking gave us a huge evolutionary edge; it enabled us to solve problems and to plan; it is both creative and inventive helping us to improve our quality of living through better health, food production and technology. On the flip side, this inventiveness and creativity expanded into the abstract creating structures of beliefs that had little bearing on reality. Apart from the obvious – the beliefs in the supernatural with its Gods, heavens, souls, saviours, masters, religious leaders and so on – thinking also created the idea of a mind separate from the body along with an equally separate self – and this illusory mind/self is programmed to survive no matter what.

Probably the fear of death, of annihilation was the main prompt along with the endless search for some sort of permanent existence (or pleasure). It's understandable how the struggle for survival gravitated from the physical to the psychological. The body knows when its time is up but the mental self/mind structure egoistically believes itself to be so important that it demands to survive such a natural and intelligent process as death.

A beautiful photo in that it shows on the one half the structured material world and on the other half its the swirling mixture of colours like an abstract painting which depicts emptiness... consciousness... life force.....

@ Brian - this is fantastic - so beautiful and then gone ...

Basically, I am a Naturalist – it was my work (in conservation) and hobby. So for my entire life I have been involved in nature. It has not only been a professional relationship but also a spiritual one, spiritual in the sense of feeling the wonder and sublime nature of – well everything. Just living was meditation. Everything required exploring – even the explorer. For me then impermanence was and is, always apparent – and somehow beautiful and welcome. I found a poem by John Mark Green which encapsulates this:- “Exquisite beauty is often hidden in life's fragile, fleeting moments.”

The quote mentioned re 'Sand mandalas' says much about life in that:- “the more we resist change, the more difficult we make our lives. Thich Nhat Hanh stated, it is not impermanence that makes us suffer. What makes us suffer is wanting things to be permanent when they are not.”

Yes, it does seem to me that this is how suffering arises – by wanting what is impermanent to be permanent. Change is a fact. Our pre-occupation with stories and teachings that offer some sort of permanence panders to our fears and insecurities. Perhaps this is the point where all our beliefs, wishes and hopes originate – the wanting for 'me' to continue.

Change or improve a situation by all means but perhaps we need to bear in mind that even when we manipulate our lives to elicit an improvement, know that nothing endures but change.


Change or improve a situation by all means but perhaps we need to bear in mind that even when we manipulate our lives to elicit an improvement, know that nothing endures but change.

The mystic argues that, while what's observed never endures, the
observer does. The consciousness that asserts hope of permanence
is a chimera is itself permanent.

The many forms that envelop consciousness disappear but never
consciousness itself. To understand that however the mystics follow
a path of mindfullness, detach from the waves of thought, verify
within what can never be experienced outside in phenomena,
and never rely on blind faith or dogmatic assertions.

Quote Dungeness:
The mystic argues that, while what's observed never endures, the
observer does. The consciousness that asserts hope of permanence
is a chimera is itself permanent.

The many forms that envelop consciousness disappear but never
consciousness itself. ,


But why does the mystic argue that, Dungeness?

Isn't he simply inventing that argument out of whole cloth?

I'm not necessarily doubting the mystic's visions -- that is, in some cases some alleged mystics are probably no more than liars and charlatans and/or madmen, but I can grant that there are those, real mystics, who do see these visions -- but where does the mystic get these arguments about an eternal self, as you say (or for that matter about the One Consciousness, like Advaitists like Osho Robbins posit)?

Even granting the veracity of these visions, why does the seer and the mystic burden the bare-bones account of these visions with such embellishments?

You've rightly presented the argument that many mystics present. How, do you imagine, can such arguments be backed up? Even granting that the mystics' visions are 'real'?


Oh, and I see moderations's off, finally.

Good luck this time, Brian! :-)


@ AR - I think the moderator is still on


How, do you imagine, can such arguments be backed up? Even granting that the mystics' visions are 'real'?


I believe mystics simply present a counter narrative to the assertion
that "nothing endures but change". Of course, what's observed
outside isn't permanent. But, to predicate there's nothing permanent
including consciousness is an unproven belief. It's an assertion based
on observation of what's outside consciousness itself. It posits that
consciousness only exists when there's a brain to generate it. Forget
that consciousness isn't really understood at all, just confidently crawl
out on a dogmatic limb.

The mystic never says their vision is 'real'. After all, it's outside. It's
impermanent. However, they do claim it can be experientially
verified and is repeatable. Moreover, the mystic discipline can
induce a level of bliss and provably has positive health benefits.
Compare that with sad lamentations that nothing's "permanent".
or the Churchless refrain: "We're all gonna die soon. Clinging to
mystic fairy tales is like a child clinging to a teddy bear but, hey,
that reminds me, I need some Prozac. Marge, did you fill that god
damn prescription?"

"The mystic argues that, while what's observed never endures, the
observer does. The consciousness that asserts hope of permanence
is a chimera is itself permanent."


Well, there is no observer, no one 'in there' to do the observing. Its all an illusion generated by thought, by past information (mind). There are no 'mystics', all the so-called spiritual 'authorities' play on our gullibility's, on our fears and insecurities and hopes for a nebulous 'something else'.

The only liberated people are those who see through the illusion that the mind/brain generates, and consequently let it go to live this life as is it.


Well, there is no observer, no one 'in there' to do the observing. Its all an illusion generated by thought, by past information (mind).

If only that negation helped with the onslaught of thought, the
myriad ills of a mind out of control, or answered any existential
questions. It's reminiscent of religious dogma which affirms pain
is an illusion and is unreal or twirling beads in your hand will ward
off "evii spirits' or that blind faith will bring rewards in an afterlife.

There are no 'mystics', all the so-called spiritual 'authorities' play on our gullibility's, on our fears and insecurities and hopes for a nebulous 'something else'.

Mystics aren't doing that unless you believe that they all are
charlatans. Instead a mystic path claims no exclusivity, doesn't
recruit members, never suggests blind faith helps anyone . It's
solely experiential. That 'nebulous something else' must be verified
every step of the way. That's the only way 'fear' can be allayed.

True mystics never tout their 'spiritual authority'. A modern mystic
said, "If you find something more effective, please come back
and tell me. I want to follow it too."

The only liberated people are those who see through the illusion that the mind/brain generates, and consequently let it go to live this life as is it.

The mystics agree totally. But, unfortunately proclaiming you've
seen through illusion and are liberated from thought doesn't
make it so.

Its not a case of believing 'mystics', but in seeing the fact of impermanence is to be free of needing such authorities.

D. "True mystics never tout their 'spiritual authority'. A modern mystic
said, "If you find something more effective, please come back
and tell me. I want to follow it too."

Then follow the reality of 'seeing' impermanence and be liberated from authorities.

D. "The mystics agree totally. But, unfortunately proclaiming you've
seen through illusion and are liberated from thought doesn't
make it so."

Proclaiming to see impermanence - no, of course not; seeing (the everyday fact of) impermanence is the liberation from authorities.


Proclaiming to see impermanence - no, of course not; seeing (the everyday fact of) impermanence is the liberation from authorities.


The mystics don't claim to be authorities. They offer an experiential
path to look within, to examine that very consciousness that sees
the impermanence.

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