The danger of religious abstractions

Here's an interesting letter in the October 6, 2018 issue of New Scientist:

From Steve Brewer,
St. Ives, Cornwall, UK

Sofia Deleniv describes self-awareness as an illusion, and on your cover you call it a "delusion" (8 September, p 28). What wasn't discussed was its power to turn the whole world as we view it into "illusions" by the process of forming abstract concepts and ideas about it.

By developing and interconnecting these abstractions, we have produced our various sciences. Through them we have achieved enormous power over ourselves and the natural world.

Self-awareness may yield this great power, but it also results in the broader illusion -- held by many -- that this world of abstractions is more real than the natural one. In this world of concepts, individuals have become just another concept and so are dehumanized.

Recognizing this as the most dangerous delusion may help defend our humanity.

It's impossible to know exactly what the letter writer is referring to when he speaks of the dehumanization of individuals via abstract concepts.

But, hey, I'll jump in and share my idea: it is religion. 

After all, what else has very little connection with the natural world, being almost wholly made up of abstract concepts? Religion is nothing but concepts. So is mysticism. So are all other forms of supernatural spirituality.

As I frequently point out on this blog, there is no way to discern whether a person standing in front of us has an intimate connection with God or some other supposed divinity. 

If they claim to be an athlete, we can ask to see their athletic prowess. If they claim to be a musician, we can ask them to play a song. If they claim to be a scientist, we can ask for their academic and professional credentials. 

When it comes to all things godly, though, words, concepts, and abstractions are all we're going to get. Sure, maybe the person appears to be a moral, upstanding, compassionate human being. And so are countless other people who don't claim any connection with God.

Further, religions often downplay the importance of this world, and of the human body, because they embrace concepts about some more perfect supernatural realm, often called "heaven." 

So as the letter writer says, individuals become just another concept. Instead of being who they are, in all of their human complexity, they become categorized as a sinner, a fallen soul, someone trapped in maya, a person needing redemption, a shadow of their true spiritual self.

Again, these are just a bunch of concepts.

Science, at least, engages in concepts about the real world. Religion engages in concepts about imaginary worlds, which is why religious dogma has no predictive power. That's why I much prefer science over religion. 

Comments

[Osho Robbins]

As I frequently point out on this blog, there is no way to discern whether a person standing in front of us has an intimate connection with God or some other supposed divinity.

And that is the one point the believer just cannot see. To the believer – their dogma is fact. To a Mormon, god DID speak to joseph and nothing will convince him otherwise.
When I was an RSSB follower – I just KNEW it was the truth. The possibility that it might not be true, was not even on the radar.
Once you acquire a belief – it becomes part of you reality.
Dropping the beliefs is the way to liberation.
If you ask a believer, why they believe, they will give you a circular argument. It will start with the truth of their belief
A Christian will quote the bible as evidence, without realising there is life outside of the bible.
It all starts in childhood because children trust their parents, and will believe what they tell them. It takes a long time for them to truly grow up and drop those beliefs.

they become categorized as a sinner, a fallen soul, someone trapped in maya, a person needing redemption….

Religions create the problem first – then offer the solution.
You are a sinner and need to be saved and Jesus saves…
Your soul is covered with worldly dirt – you need a master to initiate you so you can meditate and purify your soul and go to sach khand.
Once you buy into the problem, you automatically feel the need for the solution.

[E.M.]

Osho, you state: "To the believer – their dogma is fact.... The possibility that it might not be true, was not even on the radar."

Brian, you state: "Science, at least, engages in concepts about the real world."

What then is the purpose of articulating commentary to the contrary beyond the Gibbon observation: "Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false and by the rulers as useful."

[s*]

Osho,
You had some good conversations with Baba Gurinder..
He, as you understand ,is more of Advaita now.
Why does he still initiate people along with all the conventional concepts?
Do you understand that fact?

Thanks,
s*

[Arjuna]

@ E.M - good point you make about Brian’s and Osho’s comments on Gibbons quote.

Read the quote slowly both you - Brian and Osho😀

[Osho Robbins]

@ s*

Osho,
You had some good conversations with Baba Gurinder..
He, as you understand ,is more of Advaita now.
Why does he still initiate people along with all the conventional concepts?
Do you understand that fact?

He is very clear - if you ask him a clear question.

Leaves no doubt at all in his answer

to me: he may say "No master comes at death"

then someone else asks, "Can you please come at my death - I am so afraid of death"
he replies "Don't worry, master will come and take care of you"

So what's going on here?

If you are not ready to hear the ONENESS ideas - he doesn't state them.
It would be pointless anyway if you are steeped in duality teachings
You would no understand him.

So he plays both cards

The old teachings entice people to apply for initiation. then slowly, perhaps many years later the disciples matures to the point of realizing the teachings cannot be literal.

The notion that there really can be regions, Sach khand, pat purush makes no sense anyway. he also makes it clear. To me he said "Oh Sar Bachan - I have never read it - those are just stories - just as every religion has stories"

He was referring to Kal and Dayal and regions.

Of course they are stories: Kal stands on one leg for X number of Yugas until Sat purush asks him what he wants. These are just stpries, but back in Charan's time, nobody realized any of this and everyone took it to be literal.
Certainly I did: I really wanted to meet Sat Purush

[Jesse]

"If you are not ready to hear the ONENESS ideas - he doesn't state them.
It would be pointless anyway if you are steeped in duality teachings
You would no understand him.

So he plays both cards"

This isn't a trait that's unique to him. He's almost certainly just a typical lying guru who does what they all do, which is tell people what is convenient or beneficial to himself. The more paradoxical and contradictory the statements, the better because it keeps people confused and trying to figure out "what does the holy guy sitting on the stage REALLY MEAN????!!!!"

Have you ever listened to the con artist of the hour Sadhguru? Almost 100% of the answers he gives contradict an answer he previously gave, sometimes as recently as 5 minutes prior. Someone asks him "Why do I feel better when I drink water" and he'll promptly reply "hahaha, no. you see, you don't actually feel better. actually, what is a feeling? what is water?.... random and irrelevant reference to Indian spiritual text.... so you see, you feel better much because you drink water."

Speaking of water, you carry a lot of it for Gurinder, Osho. Never once do you even entertain the suspicion that the guy might be full of shit. You always see the best in him and think he's extremely honest, even when he blatantly lies. "He preaches different things to you because YOU WOULDN'T UNDERSTAND!" lol right. Everyone's retarded and only Gurinder knows best or wtf oneness means. We take 1 step toward him and he takes 100 toward us, meeting us at our lowly unevolved level.

It's almost as if you're a standard sycophantic follower of a guru providing excuses for all of his flaws and deceit. Why not just say that you love him and want him to embrace you tenderly while leading you to the oneness that you desire instead of posing as a critic and casual observer who just happens to go to every satsang he gives?

[Arjuna]

@ Jesse - how the devil are you!!! Pardon the pun! Hope you are training now and getting fitter!

Did you see the Wilder vs Tyson boxing fight?

[Fairy Gyani]

Sounds like a really good book to read. In the 90s once when I was at Dorje Chang Institute in Auckland for a Mahayana Buddhist teaching, (I was repeating my simran internally) at the end of the teaching the Geshe said, "It is no good repeating your mantra while listening to the teachings, you will miss out on everything!" ( Or words to that effect). What a clever Geshe! His Holiness the Dalai Lama also often says that mantra meditation is limited. It is analytical meditation that one should focus on. However, in saying so, I do think certain mantras, if pronounced correctly have solfeggio qualities that are conducive to "rewiring" so to speak. But I also read somewhere too, that solfeggio is just a lot of nonsense! Anyhow, whatever way you look at it, vibration is a penetrable energy and I think the more one practices anything the more proficient one becomes. The highest form of meditation is the have a clear mind, to see the "clear light" of mind, through being empty of all else. An impossible task, I think perhaps, for it is then, and only then that true awareness arises. OM GATE GATE PARA GATE PARASAMGATE BODHISVAHA!

[Osho Robbins]

@jesse
you wrote
So he plays both cards"

This isn't a trait that's unique to him. He's almost certainly just a typical lying guru who does what they all do, which is tell people what is convenient or beneficial to himself.

Jesse, that would be correct if it was convenient and beneficial.
It is neither.
It is much more convenient to continue with the old traditional teachings only.

No need to change anything.

However, I have heard him say:

"It would be easy for me to say that the master will come at your death and take care of you. What will you do when no master comes?"

He is right. And its not convenient for him. It would be far easier to say "master will come"

I am sorry, but these are not the actions of a liar.

I don't follow him, I am not his disciple. But I am impressed with the stand he has taken.

[Osho Robbins]

@Jesse
you wrote
Speaking of water, you carry a lot of it for Gurinder, Osho. Never once do you even entertain the suspicion that the guy might be full of shit. You always see the best in him and think he's extremely honest, even when he blatantly lies. "He preaches different things to you because YOU WOULDN'T UNDERSTAND!" lol right. Everyone's retarded and only Gurinder knows best or wtf oneness means. We take 1 step toward him and he takes 100 toward us, meeting us at our lowly unevolved level.

I have personal experience of the "wont understand"
People who are steeped in duality reject the ONENESS idea because it appears to be another belief

It would be pointless teaching it - as then it becomes just another belief

the 1 step / 100 step - I dont agree with that - its just another teaching

[Osho Robbins]

@Jesse

It's almost as if you're a standard sycophantic follower of a guru providing excuses for all of his flaws and deceit. Why not just say that you love him and want him to embrace you tenderly while leading you to the oneness that you desire instead of posing as a critic and casual observer who just happens to go to every satsang he gives?

I don't follow him - or the sant mat teachings. I don't want him to lead me to oneness - as I already have the oneness and not from him. I seek nothing from him. I am not a disciple. I also don't seek any answers from him, or anything else.
I don't look up to him - nor do I look down on him.

I don't think he is a con man either. Certain things, I don't like and I state them, without any apology.

Just because I don't follow him does not mean I have to hate him and call him a liar or deceitful. If that is your perception - I have no issue with that - it's just not mine.

I don't go to every satsang. If I have time I go along - but I am not there to get any benefit as that is not even possible anymore. I go purely for entertainment.

[Arjuna]

@ Osho - why do you go and ask him questions if you do not seek answers from him? Is that not the whole point of the questions and answers ?

[Dungeness]

why do you go and ask him questions if you do not seek answers from him? Is that not the whole point of the questions and answers...

Hi Arjuna, I heard once "we mostly ask questions we've already
answered ourselves inside. If someone's answer matches ours,
we say "Yep... knew it all along!" :)

[Jesse]

Arjuna, yes I watched that fight. It was a really good fight, and it's always amazing to see a guy as big as Tyson Fury move so gracefully. He has the moves of a featherweight sometimes. The decision was weird, but understandable. Obviously Fury completely outboxed Wilder, but those knock downs looks brutal. Judges aren't machines, and they are emotionally impacted by that sort of thing.

I imagine the Singh bros had an equally good fight. Hopefully they release cell phone footage soon so we can learn which of the cousins throws better hands, and how the one broke his arm.

Osho, not buying it man. There's just too much consistency in your positive reviews of Gurinder. You see wisdom and honesty where no neutral observer would see anything other than opportunism at best. And it's been years straight of him being honest and correct about everything in your view.

But really we should ask that guy Manjit or whatever his name was. He knows all the right things, and all the right people. Smartest man who ever lived. You know he invented Buddhism, right? On a vacation in the Swiss Alps with his model girlfriend he took the trendiest entheogens (shit you've never heard of) and BOOM. Buddhism.

[Osho RObbins]

@Jesse

you wrote
Osho, not buying it man. There's just too much consistency in your positive reviews of Gurinder. You see wisdom and honesty where no neutral observer would see anything other than opportunism at best. And it's been years straight of him being honest and correct about everything in your view.

I didnt say wisdom. You added that. I said honesty. There are very few neutral observers. Usually you are a follower, in which case you need him for your salvation, or an EX, and you have negative baggage.

I have neither.

Let's not get this out of perspective. I have also had some pretty heated debates with him. The one time someone shouted out "turn off his mic." His reply was: "Well then turn off my mic tpo" He then went on to say that we should listen to both sides as we might hear something useful and "If I want to end the discussion, I can do it myself"

My main point of disagreement was that he would agree with the ideas that there is only the oneness, but to realise, he would say you need to meditate. I disagreed with this, to which he asked, "okay - then what is your method?" I would say "there is no method, as such" He would disagree with that position.

Doesn't happen anymore because the last time, when I mentioned meditation, He said "Meditation simply means to close your eyes, relax and just let go, no effort, no trying to get anywhere"

Well that was refreshing to hear,

I am not all positive, but i am also not negative for the sake of it.

I also am not a follower, or an EX - I have no baggage.

I used to have, until I worked it out. I used to think that I wasted so many years of my life following this nonsense and now it turns out there is no Sach Khand and no Sat Purush. I never really followed RSSB, I was more a fan of the Ruhani Satsang brand.

I met Ajaib, Divyanand, Dr Harbhajan, (all successors of Kirpal) and was an active follower of both Thakar and later Darshan. Back in the day, I was steeped in sant mat teachings and meditating 2-4 hours a day, seeing light and body going numb, hearing the sound etc. I knew nothing of the ONENESS and did not even know that that meant. I had heard of Osho, but thought he was a lunatic.

It all changed when I met my first enlightenment teacher and then a Osho successor, who took me through an intense four day session, ending in kicking me out.

I don't go to Gurinder for answers, because there are no questions. I am not seeking anything. I go purely for entertainment, and I have nothing invested in going to him. I don't want anything.

If he turned around and said "I will come at your death to save you" - it would mean nothing to me. Equally if he told me to get lost, that also would mean nothing.

I have met many gurus, mostly a LOT more closer than Gurinder. I have never met any of them who can discuss the ONENESS ideas without saying I am wrong. Specifically I used to meet the Tarn Tarn guru "Baba Kehar Singh" and the saidpur guru "Rasila Ram".

My first ever meeting with Kehar SIngh, I asked him what does it mean that the guru is ALL KNOWIING. He called me over and asked me to sit on the floor just in front of him, which I did. He then asked me to repeat the full question. I also added, just to make it real personal "Right now - you are in front of me, what exactly do you know?"

His answer, "I know nothing, there is no such thing as all-knowingness." How can I know anything - when i am here talking to you. Yes - the radiant form with each disciple knows - but I don't"

We became friends after that and I would meet him every time he came to the UK. Again, I was not a follower. He asked me many times to take his initiation. I told him I didn't consider him my guru, just a friend.
Once he was upstairs in the bedroom and I went to see him and sat on his bed. After everyone left, he said "You should not sit on the bed"
"Why not?" I asked
"Well the disciples don't like it"
"I don't care if they like it - if you mind - that is a different matter - just tell me you mind"
"No I don't mind"
I told him I have respect for him because he was truthful that one time when he said there is no such thing as all-knowingness. and that I consider him my friend.
He said "Well - people call me a sant and a guru"
I said "Well to me you are a friend - and friend is a big deal in my book"

This is getting too long - better go now and do some work

[Osho RObbins]

@Jesse

you wrote
Osho, not buying it man. There's just too much consistency in your positive reviews of Gurinder. You see wisdom and honesty where no neutral observer would see anything other than opportunism at best. And it's been years straight of him being honest and correct about everything in your view.

I didnt say wisdom. You added that. I said honesty. There are very few neutral observers. Usually you are a follower, in which case you need him for your salvation, or an EX, and you have negative baggage.

I have neither.

Let's not get this out of perspective. I have also had some pretty heated debates with him. The one time someone shouted out "turn off his mic." His reply was: "Well then turn off my mic tpo" He then went on to say that we should listen to both sides as we might hear something useful and "If I want to end the discussion, I can do it myself"

My main point of disagreement was that he would agree with the ideas that there is only the oneness, but to realise, he would say you need to meditate. I disagreed with this, to which he asked, "okay - then what is your method?" I would say "there is no method, as such" He would disagree with that position.

Doesn't happen anymore because the last time, when I mentioned meditation, He said "Meditation simply means to close your eyes, relax and just let go, no effort, no trying to get anywhere"

Well that was refreshing to hear,

I am not all positive, but i am also not negative for the sake of it.

I also am not a follower, or an EX - I have no baggage.

I used to have, until I worked it out. I used to think that I wasted so many years of my life following this nonsense and now it turns out there is no Sach Khand and no Sat Purush. I never really followed RSSB, I was more a fan of the Ruhani Satsang brand.

I met Ajaib, Divyanand, Dr Harbhajan, (all successors of Kirpal) and was an active follower of both Thakar and later Darshan. Back in the day, I was steeped in sant mat teachings and meditating 2-4 hours a day, seeing light and body going numb, hearing the sound etc. I knew nothing of the ONENESS and did not even know that that meant. I had heard of Osho, but thought he was a lunatic.

It all changed when I met my first enlightenment teacher and then a Osho successor, who took me through an intense four day session, ending in kicking me out.

I don't go to Gurinder for answers, because there are no questions. I am not seeking anything. I go purely for entertainment, and I have nothing invested in going to him. I don't want anything.

If he turned around and said "I will come at your death to save you" - it would mean nothing to me. Equally if he told me to get lost, that also would mean nothing.

I have met many gurus, mostly a LOT more closer than Gurinder. I have never met any of them who can discuss the ONENESS ideas without saying I am wrong. Specifically I used to meet the Tarn Tarn guru "Baba Kehar Singh" and the saidpur guru "Rasila Ram".

My first ever meeting with Kehar SIngh, I asked him what does it mean that the guru is ALL KNOWIING. He called me over and asked me to sit on the floor just in front of him, which I did. He then asked me to repeat the full question. I also added, just to make it real personal "Right now - you are in front of me, what exactly do you know?"

His answer, "I know nothing, there is no such thing as all-knowingness." How can I know anything - when i am here talking to you. Yes - the radiant form with each disciple knows - but I don't"

We became friends after that and I would meet him every time he came to the UK. Again, I was not a follower. He asked me many times to take his initiation. I told him I didn't consider him my guru, just a friend.
Once he was upstairs in the bedroom and I went to see him and sat on his bed. After everyone left, he said "You should not sit on the bed"
"Why not?" I asked
"Well the disciples don't like it"
"I don't care if they like it - if you mind - that is a different matter - just tell me you mind"
"No I don't mind"
I told him I have respect for him because he was truthful that one time when he said there is no such thing as all-knowingness. and that I consider him my friend.
He said "Well - people call me a sant and a guru"
I said "Well to me you are a friend - and friend is a big deal in my book"

This is getting too long - better go now and do some work

[Osho Robbins]

@Jesse

And it's been years straight of him being honest and correct about everything in your view.

Not true.

I don't agree that meditation is needed, instead just the company of someone who is enlightened and who you can have an honest to god conversation in which you are prepared to sacrifice your big ideas and concepts and are open to have them shattered to a thousand pieces.

To me - that is the path.

I once met a guy who was heavily into "a course in miracles"
We were having a walk in Hyde park, with him, me and a few others, all seekers of truth.
Every time I said something, he would quote "a course of miracles"
"Page xxx - says exactly what you just said"
I asked him to give me the holy book, which he did.
I dropped it on the ground.
"The book is now your barrier. Leave it there, and let's carry on. Or pick it up and remain where you are. Either way - make a choice and I con't mind which you choose."

That kind of confrontation is needed before a person truly realizes oneness. It's not just conceptual talk.

[Arjuna]

@ Jesse - yes it was a brilliant fight - he is 6.9 and moves around so well. The way he got up after being knocked down was out of this world! He sang American Pie at the post fight press conference and I though that what the world needs who lifts people up.

He suffered depression and one of his podcasts on dealing with that issue is totally out of this world! He came from that mindset to perform like that was wow! Total respect.

As to the fight to unite the Religare and Fortis World Greed titles between the Singh brothers - don’t think it would be on the same level but still worth watching I guess. Interesting no marks - no punching - on face just a lot of grabbing and biting I guess. They need to watch Creed and the second part coming out!!!

The whole episode disgusts me!!! I can fight but never even think about it when people get a bit too over the top! I would defend my self if attached nevertheless! People get

[s*]

Thanks Osho,
I was thinking like that be the case..
Maybe not so easy at all for him..
But I do not know how he is in his inner.
But thank you.

[Arjuna]

@ Osho - I think you sound like a nice guy but I’m trying to understand why you go to Haynes.

Doesn’t make sense - unless His power is drawing you - even though you have authority from the Big Man above to run commentary on Gurinder Singh. Who knows.

Perhaps it’s time to forget this and get absolutely leathered this Christmas and become an athiest in the new year - happy days hey. Think all this is mad as box of frogs!

[Jesse]

Well Osho, I can't read your mind or anything, but it just does seem like your views on Gurinder, and a number of Gurus, is pretty much identical to that of believers.

Maybe the reason is just that you're just a nice person, as Arjuna mentioned, and you don't like saying or even thinking negative things.

[Osho Robbins]

Arjuna:
@ Osho - why do you go and ask him questions if you do not seek answers from him? Is that not the whole point of the questions and answers ?

I don't actually ask questions - or at least very rarely. Usually I say something and invite his comments. I actually say "Would you please comment on this"

I give him the opportunity to go into depth, on say ONENESS or whatever topic I choose in the Q&A.

So others can hear the answer. Perhaps someone will actually listen.

I used to be a speaker, so maybe this is my way of still being a speaker. My subtle revenge, until the management ban me from asking questions. LOL

Like I said - its entertainment for me. I have no questions.

@Jesse
My views are very different from believers. I am not seeking anything.
No answers, No Sach Khand, no grace. I am not hungry.

Quite often I disagree with him. Or we debate a point. He is quite open to that.

A few times I said "Meditation can't help because it strengthens the ego - and the ego is the issue"

When they run the lottery to pick the winners, I did that twice and lost both times. But I am quite happy when I lose, cause its just a game for me. I see others get really upset, even crying.

If I had a real question, I would be upset. If I desired his darshan. I would be upset. I dont have any such desires or notions. Pure entertainment.

Why do I go? no reason. And I can take or leave it.

Why did I give satsangs, years ago? same reason. I enjoyed it, sand my satsangs were unique.

I never once said "meditate" eventually the management were looking for reasons to stop me. They said they want parrots, and I refused to be a parrot.

It didnt bother me in the slightest when I stopped.

[Arjuna]

& Osho - think you are a nice guy! Good luck with life and I mean that!

I, for my part, am bored with RSSB - it’s full of contradictions!

Some of us just wanted some truth in this world so that we may have aspired to do some more- ie mediate.

All the very best and thank you replying to me !

[Arjuna]

@ Dungeness- in response to your reply above . Hello.

I would only ask a question to learn more and perhaps understand the person replying more. What are his or her motives, desires, are they trying to help me or playing to crowd? If this sounds Machiavelli - I don’t apologise.

The world is full of con artists / and it very hard to find the truth! Money appears to be the sole driver in most cases of holy man.

All a few of want is Love! Is that’s simple - love without conditions! So I ask questions to see if the person to whom I direct these is Valid as a human being - if they not (valid meaning honest) discard them and move on as fast as you can!

Have a good day

[Arjuna]

https://www.thehindubusinessline.com/companies/singapore-hc-orders-singh-brothers-to-pay-3500-crore-to-daiichi/article25801645.ece

@ Brian - you may find this interesting. Have a good day

[Dungeness]

So I ask questions to see if the person to whom I direct these is Valid as a human being - if they not (valid meaning honest) discard them and move on as fast as you can!

Hi Arjuna,

Agreed, that's a valid reason. Some questions asked of Masters seem
mainly argumentative though as if we've already made up our mind
and only want the answer we've settled on in our subconscious. Then
we're confused unless the Master says the "right" answer.

[Arjuna]

@ Dungeness

Hello - I see your point - I have never felt the need to ask him anything as I never had the chance to be close. I did with Huzar Maharaj ji when I was a child - that was special as he encouraged me.

Stay well my friend and have a good Christmas

[Spence Tepper]

If you read someone's claim that a Guru has told them that their pet theory is the real truth, when that theory contradicts that Guru's core teachings, teachings in all their published books, teachings inculcated in every session teaching new initiates the method of meditation, principles all their predecessors taught in poetry, books and lectures, should we believe that narrative?

Get this. One guy says the Guru winked and said, to this effect 'you are right, and all these people who have devoted their lives to these teachings which I still give out, are much more ignorant than you are. They are all in delusion, and all the prior teachers of this practice. But you know better than any of them!'

You say this isn't delusional?

The very fact that you don't demand independent verification is proof that objectivity has been thrown out the window.

But when someone else says their inner Master shows them that actually those teachings are in fact an accurate depiction of inner truths, not in fifteen minute snippets of unconfirmed dialogue, but actual journeys there, and multiple commentors confirm this is true in their own experience, you claim that is delusional?

Puleeze!

If you really want to have a discussion about Atheism, please leave Gurinder and Sant Mat out of it.

This effort to make a Guru into your own mold of Atheist is just sad.

And unnecessary.

Atheism can stand on its own two feet.

[Arjuna]

@ Spencer hello 🌟

[Dungeness]

Get this. One guy says the Guru winked and said, to this effect 'you are right, and all these people who have devoted their lives to these teachings which I still give out, are much more ignorant than you are. They are all in delusion, and all the prior teachers of this practice. But you know better than any of them!'

You say this isn't delusional?

Gosh, I hope I didn't hint that someone could get confirmation of
their delusional belief from the Guru with a wink. It's totally spurious
as you eloquently point out.

Ha, today's Peanuts cartoon just came to mind:

https://www.gocomics.com/peanuts/2018/12/22

[Osho Robbins]

@spence

If you read someone's claim that a Guru has told them that their pet theory is the real truth, when that theory contradicts that Guru's core teachings, teachings in all their published books, teachings inculcated in every session teaching new initiates the method of meditation, principles all their predecessors taught in poetry, books and lectures, should we believe that narrative?

This in incorrect.
HE HIMSELF says it, and now it’s no longer just occasionally, and I am not the only person to witness this.
And I am not talking about some private one on one chat I had. I am talking about Q&A in front of tens of thousands disciples. This is not hearsay.
Yes it contradicts the earlier teachings – but he is clearly doing just that. A d for good reason.
He told me “there are no regions”
What do YOU think? – you think there are literal regions?
He said “The master CANNOT come at your death – because there is only ONE.”
If you have never heard this first hand – then you have not listened to his satsangs. Not that it matters to you, anyway, as you have already clearly stated that RSSB are all fake masters. You said this, right? Thais is what you believe? Or have I got you wrong?
On the other hand, Spence, your theory is there are two gurinders. The inner good and and the outer conman. Your words, not mine.
This is YOUR theory. Do you stand by this made up theory?

Get this. One guy says the Guru winked and said, to this effect 'you are right, and all these people who have devoted their lives to these teachings which I still give out, are much more ignorant than you are. They are all in delusion, and all the prior teachers of this practice. But you know better than any of them!'
You say this isn't delusional?
The very fact that you don't demand independent verification is proof that objectivity has been thrown out the window.

There IS independent proof. These were not private talks. They were public. Everyone in the satsang hall heard it. What other verification do you want?
One of the latest Q&A with him and I was 20 minutes long. You can’t miss that. And it wasn’t a debate. There was no disagreement. He and I were both in absolute agreement. That’s when I bought up meditation. His reply “meditation means just relax and let go”

Spence, seriously man, you are not only delusional now, but you are actively twisting the facts. If what you just wrote was true, I would be the only one making those statements. I am not. Many others are also witness to this.
If it was only me – I would have been dismissed long ago. There would not even be an article on “Church of the Churchless” about it. And nobody else would have wrote “yes I heard that too”

But when someone else says their inner Master shows them that actually those teachings are in fact an accurate depiction of inner truths, not in fifteen minute snippets of unconfirmed dialogue, but actual journeys there, and multiple commentors confirm this is true in their own experience, you claim that is delusional?
Puleeze!

Not someone else – Spence Tepper. And what the inner master said to Spence was “you are not wrong”
Not wrong about what?
About the outer master being a criminal
So what you are saying, Spence, is the inner master is good but the outer is a criminal and a robber. And you stand by this theory?
Goes against all the teachings – yet the great Spence has heard it from his inner master
With HOW MANY witnesses?
And that is verified?
But my statement in public satsang is unverified?
You don’t see how ridiculous your statement is?

[Arjuna]

@ how can the inner master be good and the outer shady??? This is getting crazy guys! Ain’t both supposed to be the same !!!!!!

It’s now reaching the point where things are getting silly - an enigma with an enigma!!!! Something is not right!

Robert Mueller will be free soon - so perhaps he can bring LOGIC here!!!!!!!

[spence tepper]

Osho
Why would you care what that guy is saying?
Really, you are asking his permission to believe what you want to believe?
Just go ahead and believe it.
You don't need anyone's permission.

He is not an astrophysicist.
He's a Guru!
That's spiritual stuff.

This is a site to discuss Atheism.

So, he's not a great reference for Atheism.
For that, you might quote the elegant writings of Hutchins or Dawkins.

They are actual references for Atheism, and a bit of Anti-theism. Hutchins isn't even so much an Atheist as an Anti-Theist.

Worth reading and citing.

On every single page of their works are elegant ideas, sensible and rationale thinking, and a bit of polemic, delivered with immense humor and compassion.

I would use those authors as my reference in defending Atheism and Anthi-Theism.

Gurinder is a Guru, dude...

If you aren't interested in spiritual regions, spiritual beliefs, prayer, worship, etc..., he's not going to be much help. It's not his wheelhouse...

And I wouldn't suggest taking financial advice from him either.

[Jesse]

"So what you are saying, Spence, is the inner master is good but the outer is a criminal and a robber."

That would actually be consistent with RSSB and other Indian teachings. Stories of god bros justifiably doing things the public would consider corrupt or wrong because god bros are all spiritual and stuff. They do bad stuff to teach us how bad we are, even though we don't do the bad things that they do. This is both rational and spiritual.

Punching your brother in front of the sangat to keep bad disciples away. Being a butcher because caste is wrong but it's super important to maintain your caste profession, but also supposedly being a vegetarian. Spending the night with hookers to prove how hypocritical everyone else is, but totally not doing anything sexual with the hookers, because godmen just chill alone with hookers all night.

There are thousands of these manipulative guru stories out there. If Gurinder hasn't been telling them at recent satsangs, he's totally missing an opportunity. He should actually hire a bunch of hookers to dance during the satsang and then chastise any man who looks at them. It's time for RSSB to level up.

[Dungeness]

He told me "there are no regions".

Hi Osho,

I think this is another variant of "I'm not coming for you at death".
Glomming onto to it as evidence of a grand contradiction in the
teachings ignores all nuance. GSD is almost certainly emphasizing
that the objective is to realize the goal while alive. He didn't deny
that the disciple would still be protected and guided at all times
during life and death which is the key point. In my opinion, his
remark was a warning, a shakeup. It contradicts no essential truth.

Similarly, with "no regions". What's outside "soul" is transient, subject
to change, and ultimately unreal. Only the "totality of consciousness"
or soul is beyond time/space and is unchanging. That's the realization
that's important, not chattering about "inner regions" while your life
ebbs away. Experiencing inner regions isn't a requirement at all on
the journey. GIHF may take a disciple home immediately to avoid
entrapment on the inner planes. For some, the journey may be a
non-stop flight.

This is off-topic for Church of the Churchless. Please redirect follow-on's
to the AtheistsNBelievers blog.

[Arjuna]

@ Dungeness- genuis - what Osho doesn’t get yes no master comes for your at death - as he is always with you!

Simples - right have a good day or evening or night ⭐️

[Jessr]

"He told me there are no regions and that he would not come to save me at the time of my death, before selling me a book with his photo in the first page that said there are regions and that he would personally come save me when I die. I still maintain that he is honest."

Maybe there are regions and various ascending heavens. Maybe there is no oneness. You obviously don't know any better than anyone else, so the hilarious thing is that you give credence to his opinion at all and travel out of your way to listen to what he says.

Why the hell does Gurinder Singh's opinion on anything have any value at all if not for the fact that you worship him? Why do you accept it as truth when he talks about this nonsense of oneness? It's as stupid as saying sach khand or sat lok, but it's music to your ears. Do you put money in the donation box at the satsang?

The only competent metaphysician is Manjit(both theoretical and experiential since he is buddha), yet you're not quoting him in all your posts. Sorta strange, Osho.

[Jen]

Hi religious crazies,

Comments do not seem to have changed much since Brian said "I'm fed up with having this blog used to discuss Sant Mat and Radha Soami Satsang Beas dogmas, since this blog is called Church of the Churchless, not Church of the Churched. I've been exceedingly patient with comment abuse over the years, but my patience has run out."

"You know who you are, religious crazies."

"You have an astounding sense of entitlement and egocentricity."

"I'd say "Good luck with finding another web site willing to embrace your religious nuttery," but that'd be a lie. I wish you no luck, except insofar as you follow the light of truth, reason, and demonstrable evidence toward reality rather than fantasy."

[Arjuna]

@ Jen - trust you are well - Merry Christmas and all the very best for the New Year.

[Dungeness]

Jen - trust you are well - Merry Christmas and all the very best for the New Year

Happy holidays one and all.

P.S.
The 12 Days of Christmas will be modified for the
Church-less. Drummers drumming, Pipers a piping,
golden rings, partridges, swans a swimming, etc
are all ok but "Lords a leaping" are out.

[Spence Tepper]

Hi Jesse
You cited Osho's mis-quote of my statement
"So what you are saying, Spence, is the inner master is good but the outer is a criminal and a robber."

Well that's not what I've ever said.
You must make your own decision.
That's what I've always said.
And oh yes, a shell scheme of corporate theft, well documented occurred.

[Jen]

Blessings to all spiritual nutty crazies all over the world ;)

[Jen]

ELO all over the world

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wh3i3vWgPyk

[Osho Robbins]

@spence

I maintain you said this.

" the inner master is good but the outer is a criminal and a robber."

Are you saying this is NOT your opinion?

[Osho Robbins]

@Jessr
you wrote

Why the hell does Gurinder Singh's opinion on anything have any value at all if not for the fact that you worship him? Why do you accept it as truth when he talks about this nonsense of oneness? It's as stupid as saying sach khand or sat lok, but it's music to your ears. Do you put money in the donation box at the satsang?

You don't get it.

"Worship" is a big word. I doubt if even his followers "worship" him - and I am not a follower. Since we are talking about me - I would know better than your opinion. Just as you would know better about what you believe that I would.

I ,most certainly do not worship him - but unlike you - I don't hate him either, I have respect for the fact that he makes a stand for certain truths.

I don't accept what he says as truth. I am merely stating what he said. My agreement or disagreement is irrelevant. I happen to agree with the ONENESS state - as I am in that state. Oneness is the truth, regardless of any person's opinion.

Oneness is a discovery that all else fades simply because it has form. Only oneness can remain as there is no form no change no time no space. I am not bothered if anyone agrees - I am simply stating that GSD happens to agree.

Where we differ is in the method - he is a strong advocate of meditation - but he did say "meditation just means to close your eyes, relax and let go"

My experience is that the only way you can realize is to go to someone who is realized and listen, without bias, without thinking you know better. That's been my path. That awakens wisdom which was previously dormant and from wisdom comes truth - not from a person who gives you a new theory - as then you have just replaced one theory with a oneness theory - both are still theories.

[Osho Robbons]

@ Dungeness

you wrote

Similarly, with "no regions". What's outside "soul" is transient, subject
to change, and ultimately unreal. Only the "totality of consciousness"
or soul is beyond time/space and is unchanging. That's the realization
that's important, not chattering about "inner regions" while your life
ebbs away. Experiencing inner regions isn't a requirement at all on
the journey. GIHF may take a disciple home immediately to avoid
entrapment on the inner planes. For some, the journey may be a
non-stop flight.

Firstly - WHERE exactly do you think he is going to take you (or your soul - if you have one!

When you say "experiencing inner regions is not a requirement" - not sure which books you have been reading - but the books say IT IS!
The journey - as per the books is
1. get initiated
2. meditate
3. see light, hear shabd, body goes numb
4 you leave body - and enter region no 1
5 guru in his radiant form greets you with a cup of chai - but without sugar if you are diabetic
6. After a brief chat about the nonsense people write on church of the churchless, you both go onto to region 2
7. here he introduces you to the ruler of that region - I forgot his name - oh yes - Ommm-Kaaar i believe if memory serves me right.
8 this is the final resting place for most other regions as they are not aware of anything beyond - but lucky for you - you have 3 regions to go.
9. You go on to regions 3 - and enter the inner amritsar lake where your soul enters and bathes. IT EMERGES pure and has the light of 12 suns
10 you go on and enter bhanwar gupha - and even with 12 suns light you are as blind as a bat because that is the regions of immense darkness. Only because you have guru ji with you are you able to go beyond because he as a special light
11 Finally you enter SACH KHAND - and meet Sat Purush, and his pals - Anami Purush and Alakh Purush and Agam Purush. Purush is their family name as it's a family business.
12 once there - you are not sent back - unless you are!

those, with a very slight paraphrasing process - are the traditional teachings. read Mysticism volume two for more details

or Sar Bachan before Gurinder burns the last copies

the NEW teachings are different.

How can I say these are new teachings - because the previous gurus never made those statements. Only Gurinder makes them.

Attn Spence
This is a dialogue I have heard in Q&A - not me - I was just there and heard it

Person : Sawan says the guru who comes not a death - I will just wave at a distance to him. "Duroon Salam"
Gurinder: then wave to me from a distance

I mean it can't be any clearer.

[Osho Robbins]

@Arjuna

how can the inner master be good and the outer shady??? This is getting crazy guys! Ain’t both supposed to be the same !!!!!!

It’s now reaching the point where things are getting silly - an enigma with an enigma!!!! Something is not right!

You're right dude..
But Spence has developed a new theory - and that is the new theory.

The outer can be a criminal and a robber - but the inner is always pure.

Imagine what is going to happen when - one day - the inner guru starts becoming friends with the outer guru and they pull of the biggest heist in history.

Imagine Spence's new theory when that happens

[Arjuna]

@ Osho - I don’t agree with Spencer - I just hope he is shell shocked by all these revelations about shell companies and thinking I will cling on to my inner master who is the good guy! Classic human response without going into psychology.

I’ve seen it in my field - broken en finding solace in women, drink, drugs, sports and weight training (that’s me to a degree), charity work, eating and drinking fine wine and holiday )but the demons still go with you), going to Haynes park every Saturday (and then being a general ass during the week but all folded hands at Haynes), trying to make money, opening dodgy businesses for their ego, some find solace in intellectual pursuits and the list goes on.

Fascinating human psychology- I keep my demons away by stating an inch or two from them. Sometimes they need feeding!

In a nutshell if it is all true - ie there can be a master GIHF - the outer can’t be any different than the inner.

It’s all crazy - I just Spencer is ok as he is a good man!

[Arjuna]

Correction:

@ Osho - I don’t agree with Spencer - I just hope he is shell shocked by all these revelations about shell companies and thinking I will cling on to my inner master who is the good guy! Classic human response without going into psychology

[Arjuna]

Correction:Again!!!!

@ Osho - I don’t agree with Spencer - I just hope he is NOT shell shocked by all these revelations about shell companies and thinking I will cling on to my inner master who is the good guy! Classic human response without going into psychology

[Jesse]

Osho, oneness obviously isn't anything real since you're referring to me by name and making a distinction between you, I, Gurinder and everyone else.
Telling the world that you're an enlightened being existing in a state above the rest is as ugly as it is observably dishonest. Get over yourself, sant ji.

[Osho Robbins]

Heres a man conversing with his inner master

https://youtu.be/oOEOBAuS1O8

Here is the truth of what is going on.

Everyone has their own version of everything , not just sant mat.

We live in a sea of concepts

Its mostly bullshit.

But its our personal brand of bullshit

We are in love with it.

We will tell anyone who listens about all the bullshit we know.

But of course we don't actually call it bullshit, that would be crap marketing.

No. We call it "my knowledge"
We are very proud of it.

If anyone calls us on it, we are ready for a fight to the death. First one to die loses.

If anyone agrees, we are in heaven.

I know someone who is mentally ill.

No, no, i don't mean Spence. I mean really mentally ill. He was sectioned.

If you speak to him he is normal in every way except one.

He never stops talking.

He is RSSB

You cannot stop him from talking.

Its 99% bullshit - but not to him.

To him it is amazing wisdom.

Everyone who listens to a RSSB satsang is doing the same.

Three processes are at work, two of which I list below.

Deletion. This is simple. You just imagine the sentence had never been spoken. You DELETE it.
Motto "he never said that"

Distortion. You change what he said to match your own theory.
Motto "that's not what he meant"

Using those two processes you can listen to a 90 min talk, and leave the satsang thinking "yeah I knew it. He is saying exactly what I thought. Those idiots on churches ain't got a clue"

Everyone has their one theories and to them they are truth eternal

[Osho Robbins]

@Jesse

Osho, oneness obviously isn't anything real since you're referring to me by name and making a distinction between you, I, Gurinder and everyone else.

Well I would probably get locked away if I called everyone THE ONE!

and it would also be terribly confusing.

Here I'll show you:

Hey - THE ONE - you just don't get what THE ONE is saying. But THE ONE is cool. He gets it.
but you - THE ONE - you are clueless.

My conversations would become just like 777 I would have to rename myself the THE ONE mystic777

Telling the world that you're an enlightened being existing in a state above the rest is as ugly as it is observably dishonest. Get over yourself, sant ji.

I am not telling any "the world" anything. Secondly it is not a "state above" - it is that state you were born with, When you were born you knew nothing - in that state you were the ONE.

You still are THE ONE - but have clouded it with your knowing.

THE ONE is all there is - so any realized person cannot be ABOVE the rest.

"Above the rest" is your projection - if you get over that - you no longer need to tell anyone else to get over it.

THE ONE is not an attainment - nothing to be proud of - it's your normal state - not elitist

[Arjuna]

@ Osho - if I am the One I don’t need to go to Haynes or mediate! This is wicked!

Thank you for clarifying that

[Osho Robbins]

@Arjuna
" IF I am the ONE......"

It's the IF ....... what IF, you're NOT and I was wrong all along?

fuck me - then you need to meditate again.......

actually

even if you are NOT the ONE, you still don't NEED to do those things or anything else

because the only thing you need to do in life is

BREATH, EAT, SHIT, and comment on churchless.

That's it, everything else is an optional extra, not a need

[Arjuna]

@ Osho - your reply made me laugh. It was humorous. In a nice way:-)

It reminds me of the movie The Matrix- when Neo meets the Architect! The conversation between the two of them is so heavy that you could write a Master's thesis/paper on it.

This the One business is annoying and doesn't make sense (please don't try to explain as I am not that interested to be honest).

Like the Big Man told some youngster at Haynes what should he do to prepare to follow the path- he replied "Read Harry Potter". Awesome answer and we would do well not to follow it ha.

Its all crazy... no logic and as Brian says "fantasy".

I love not going to Sunday meetings as I used to see many people who don't need God but a good counsellor to talk to.It was a wake up call when I needed that community most - none was to offer any words of support. Its a game - who is playing who -we not know! Lets deal with the reality we have here and be good humans to each other.

If God is love and forgiveness he can come and get us! If it's ego needs loving by me first - sorry I don't have the strength for that. God would well to read a wonderful book - it could broaden its ideals: Robert Greene "The laws of Human Nature". All the very best.