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December 08, 2018

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And more publicity on this today....

https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/news/company/corporate-trends/fortis-fight-comes-to-blows-malvinder-singh-accuses-shivinder-of-assault/videoshow/66980113.cms

https://www.forbes.com/sites/meghabahree/2018/12/10/the-singh-brothers-feud-gets-physical-malvinder-accuses-shivinder-of-assault/amp/

@Jim
"Devotees worship the impermance of youth, when Life’s a Bitch, then we all die?

Yes but. No No. No.

You don't need to hear the Shabd even in an intensive way

Much earlier then the phenomenon that YOU ARE REALLY THAT ( the Sound)
you know / strongly feel That
From that moment on you really know that death concerns our body but not us.

This is fantastic for the elderly. haha. :-)
Great Path

PS
Like with Asprin, . . Charan is ready withe a Flute. , . . . . . . .

777

OMG. > I preached a little to a preacher
I did seminarium too, 2 years 11 - 12
brought me latin/grec


Dear Arjuna,

You said "I am looking for truth"
On the blogs and news, really ? and not inside yourself ?

If you allow yourself for an online text to satisfy your hunger, it's inevitable that some other text will disturb your digestion as well.

On the other hand if you'll find the inner satisfaction, nothing in this world can disturb you slightly.

Had that been the case, then even if the World Bank gives trillions to HIM to manage the funds better for the betterment of the humanity,
Or, even if the 7.5 billion people would be pointing fingers to your Master,
it wouldn't have made a difference for you.

We are only getting disturbed because we are still outward and downward.

Hi Jen
I noticed the sound at the end faded out.
Here is the alternate ending, with Tommy's poetry, to one of his favorite pieces of music, Debussy's The Engulfed Cathedral

https://youtu.be/q8ILdJGnrMw

Quote Jim the Troll:

"unlike Trolls like AP does, and takes liberty to Troll Big Wheel personalities like David Lane, Osho, Brian Hines, Manjit, humping and peeing on their pant legs, looking for pats on the head, and petting , by asking silly questions that Puppie dog AP Troll imagines will impress readers , that he/she/it is a real High IQ Smarty Pants."


Ladies and gentlemen, I present to you, Jim. Yes, he's a "Th.D.", apparently; he's also, apparently, a mystic who has deep inner visions; and he likes to offer spiritual guidance to others -- yes, we're talking of the the author of these sparkling gems, quoted above !!!

He's wholly incapable of cogent reasoning and argument. He's a nasty weirdo. He spends his days haunting blogs like this, vomiting out his crazy dogmas, and his insanity, and when he disagrees with people then, instead of addressing their argument, he keeps on repeatedly personalizing the issue and throw out unprovoked insults on others.

He disagrees with Osho Robbins, and instead of addressing his argument, calls him a "Whore Master". He disagrees with Brian and, unable to address his arguments, insults him about his marijuana use in the past. He disagrees with me, and instead of addressing my arguments, first calls me "Cat's Poop", and now the gems you see above.

And this -- this! -- is Jim the "Th.D". Imagine the quality of this troll's degrees. The irony is, this troll keeps call me a troll!

Oh, and this -- this -- is someone who's been having ineffable spiritual visions. Or so he would have us believe.

He remains a nasty unkind old crazy, stupid and incapable of cogent thought, without courtesy, without decency, a crazy whom I wouldn't ever dream of letting in my house. And he would have us believe that he has these wondrous inner visions.

This is lying, plain and simple. A pathetic crazy trying desperately to gather followers by lying through his teeth about all manner of inner visions.


Quote Jim the inveterate liar:

"accusing me of possibly calling my wife a Whore."


Jim's stupid, I know, but surely not so stupid that he did not understand what I'd said to him? He's simply being dishonest here. This is one dishonest liar, who has been lying throughout his life about his "experiences", and is lying now about what I'd said to him.

He's calling me a "troll", because I choose to comment anonymously. I've clearly explained to him more than once what a troll is -- someone who, like him is abusive, and someone who comments irrationally and primarily to get a rise out of others -- and instead of addressing even this argument, he insists on insulting me by calling me a troll. The irony, of this inveterate troll calling others a troll!

So I told him this is exactly as if he disagrees with his wife and, instead of addressing her arguments, he calls her a whore. Or he disagrees with his son and, instead of addressing their argument, calls him a bastard.

That's exactly what he's doing here. He disagrees with Osho Robbins, and calls him a Whore Master. He disagrees with Brian, and calls him a marijuana abuser. He disagrees with me, and keeps calling me a troll -- and now has started lying about what I said about his wife.


Quote Jim the Crazy Nut Job:

"We, who are not ashamed to stand by what we write, as David Lane, I, and others who use our real Names do, also post our email Addresses inviting private communications or criticisms. You, 777, and Osho Robbins have linked your photos, so at least, I know you are Guys, and not Robot Trolls, as AP might be. "


There's no "we", you crazy old fool. Don't equate yourself with people like Brian, or David, or Osho Robbins, or Spence. You're a crazy and nasty old man, and have nothing in common with any of these folks.


Jim the shameless hypocrite further says:

"Also, there have only been a few, very few, that have posted such Vitriol against me here, as AP has posted, in the 25 years or so years I have posted on David Lane’s site and here."


Great. You can throw unprovoked personal insults at Osho Robbins; you can throw unprovoked insults at Brian; and you can repeatedly throw unprovoked insults at me. But we are not to return insult for insult ever, eh?

I've given you plenty of chances, you old reprobate. I've laughed at your insults, then tried to parry them with sharp yet civil repartees, and only when I've finally run out of patience with your repeated insults that I've started giving it back to you.

You should have been paid in this coin years back, that would have taught you civility and decency -- something your own parents evidently have never taught you, you asshole!


Quote Jim the crazy old hypocrite:

"So, come out of hiding AP, and either contact me privately, or quit stalking me.
Jim Sutherland"


This is rich. This is fucking rich!

This crazy old pervert keeps asking me -- he's done this four or five times -- about my personal details. When I ask him to desist from this crazy stalking, he turns around and accuses me of stalking!

Projection much ??!

It's Jim who keeps throwing wholly random insults at me -- as in this comment here -- and accuses me of stalking him!

It's Jim who keeps desperately approaching me again and again and again to privately convey my personal details to his email, against my express wishes -- he's done this four or five times -- and then turns out and accuses me of stalking him!

What is one to do with shameless lying old hypocrite like this?

And this -- this pathetic specimen -- claims to be guiding people spiritually, and claims to have all kinds of inner visions!

Jim the inveterate liar, Jim who is dishonest through and through, Jim the semi-literate who claims some weird Mickey Mouse doctoral degree, Jim the charlatan, Jim the crazy weirdo, Jim the nasty old man, Jim the pervert stalker!

Gods above, he would have us believe that he -- he of all people -- is someone who possesses some kind of ineffable spiritual wisdom that we ordinary folks do not have access to!

Hi Osho
You wrote
"I personally would not allow someone I love to go to jail if I can help it in any way - I would prefer to go to jail myself instead and I don't care what the law says."

That's a beatiful sentiment, given the transgressor has at least acknowledged their part.

Are you offering to pay his debt?
That's what the good Samaritan did.

Why not start a collection?
$20B to go.....

If you will start it, I'll throw in a few bucks.

@Spence

you wrote:
That's a beautiful sentiment, given the transgressor has at least acknowledged their part.

well that is news to me.

When did he acknowledge his part in any wrong-doing?

as far as I know there has been no court hearing and you have already pronounced your own guru as guilty.

What does you inner guru have to say about this?
is he in agreement with you?

@spence

Hi Spence

since you came up with the new theory that there are two Gurinders

as if one was not enough.

The question is this:

you're not really saying there are two
actually you are saying there are millions of them
because by two you mean
1) the outer one
2) the inner one

but the inner one is many - one inside each disciple

so the question is this
do all these "inner" gurinders agree with each other - or can they say different things

and

secondly
do the INNER masters agree with the OUTER master?

I mean are they are least distant relatives?

are they in fact the same or different?

as you point out the outer one isn't much help with the issue about what happened

but the inner one should know everything

surely he can shed some light about all this

if you in fact meet the inner master, then please do me a favour and ask him, tonight, when you meditate, "WHF is going on, man?"

when he asks you what you mean - spew out all the details and demand answers

and if he doesnt give you all the answers, tell him it's all over and you will never meditate again.

joking aside - what i mean is the inner master should have the answers

when I was a disciple, long long ago, I had one question I would ask every master I met

same question and nobody ever gave me a satisfactory answer

at the time there were many claimants to the kirpal successorship.

I personally met these five:
Thakar, Ajaib, Darshan, Dr Harbhajan, Soami Divyanand.

they all claimed successorship but were not exactly friends.

So I was wondering who the real one was.

so this was my question to them

Since meeting the Radiant form of Kirpal inside is one of the most elemantary stages compared to completing the whole journey and arriving at Sach kand, surely all the successors had at the least met the radiant form

That was a reasonable assertion to make

so the question was this:

this radiant form of Kirpal : why does he not say to the fake successors
"Listen pal - you're not my successor - so back off and let my real successor do his work"

or at least
"Hey, Divy (short for Divyanand), you are not my successor - so quit your mission and go join Ajaib because he's the real thing."

In other words why does the inner radiant form not give proper guidance to the successors. Would save a lot of hassle.

Not a single guru was able to give me he answer.

Of course I have the answer now - but I don't want to spoil it for anyone right now.

I wil later.

for now I want to ask Spence, one-initiated, Jim, and anyone else who claims to have the inner master, why does the inner master not tell you what's going on?

why does he not give you answers?

if he doesn't that would suggest that you are all deluded, because you inner master is not giving any real answers - just whatever you want to believe

I can show you ppl who say they talk to Jesus. So what's the difference then?

Hi Osho!
So we are still her discussing this....OK, let me be brief...

You wrote:
"you're not really saying there are two
actually you are saying there are millions of them
because by two you mean
1) the outer one
2) the inner one"

I mean that I'm in a deep state of conflict between the two sides of Gurinder.
The one I love within, who has helped me and helped raise my son, who was chosen by Maharaji, the one whose Satsangs are funny, inspiring, compassionate, forgiving, wise and powerful.

and the one who is clearly a mastermind of financial schemes, a fraud and a thief, and worse still, silent and unresponsive.

So, I can't resolve it. But I know for a Subjective fact the subjective truth of the inner one.
And I know for an objective fact, the truth of the outer one, the physical one.

And what does the inner one tell me?
"Go with your gut! "

What does Maharaji say within? "Proceed. Your judgment is not wrong."

But this is subjective.

It's not my imagination, sadly.

There is a reason for all this.

And we should be forgiving, and respectful.

But when laws have been broken and ethics violated, we must do our duty.

Because to forgive a crime when the crimes are still continuing is to aid the crime.

The only objectivity that exists is the evidence. And it is overwhelming. Fraud is fraud.

So where is the conflict?
The inner masters and the outer evidence is in agreement.
But I don't like it and I don't understand it.
And that's as far as it goes. I must live with the facts, subjective and objective.

I want to love both, but they both want me to love the Truth more.

@spence
Let me ask you a few questions. Interrogation coming up…….. now

Are you a criminal?
Ever committed a robbery at gunpoint? I presume not
Ever murdered anyone? I presume not
Ever told a lie?
Ever stolen anything?
Have you ever taken the side of someone who did any of the above and still sided with them, helping them cover it up? (conspiring in the crime with them)
Ever committed Adultery?

One small joke before I continue.
A priest has lost his sermon notes so tells everyone he has to do it without notes.
The sermon is on the ten commandments
When he gets to “thou shalt not commit adultery”
He says “OMG I just remembered where I left my notes”

So on the whole, would you say you are a good person?
Almost everyone answers YES to that one and NO to being a criminal
When I used to run seminars, I would ask the audience
“Raise your hands if you have ever met a bad person”
Almost all hands are raised.
Then I ask “Raise your hands if YOU are a bad person”
No hands
“Raise your hands if you are a good person” all hands up.
So – I conclude
“There are lots of BAD people around as you have met them.
However take a good look around – there is not a single bad person in this room
None of you claim to be BAD so where are all the bad people?
Hmmmm….. interesting

I suggest we might have filters that filter incoming information.
So it appears to us that “I am a good person”
How? Does this magical trick work? Simple
It’s a process called JUSTIFICATION.
If I do something “WRONG” there is always a GOOD REASON why I HAD to do it.
But if YOU do the same thing wrong – you are a CRIMINAL and must be PUNISHED – no excuses.

However now let’s get the real answers from Ray Comfort
I am no fan of Ray’s – but he does a good job here of showing ppl they are not as good as they think.
Go here
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ChWiZ3iXWwM
forward to 42:00 and play up to 47:00 exactly 5 mins
then turn it off
if you have Christian values, you now know you are a criminal.

(the next step is Ray says you need Jesus to save you or else you are fucked for eternity)

Just as a sidebar, this makes God guilty of conspiracy and playing favourites
God himself sides with criminals, because God lets criminals get away scott free, just so long as a guy called CHRIST vouches for them and says “that person is my friend – he believed in me – so let him off the hook”
That’s called conspiracy to commit a crime – siding with a known criminal.
No matter how great a criminal he is – a long as he produces the JESUS SAVES card – he is saved from hell. Now I can see why there are so many Christians around. Tempting….

Let me now ask:
Have you ever broken the speed limit – then you are a criminal as you have
BROKEN THE LAW!!!
Have you ever lied? Well YOU ARE A LIAR
Have you ever cheated on your tax returns? Well you are a FRAUDSTER
In the UK, ever watched TV without a TV LICENCE? Well that makes you a criminal
If you have company, ever filled the accounts late? It’s a criminal offence!

The definition of CRIME has changed over the years
Almost everyone you meet is now a criminal,
They are certainly all LIARS and FRADUSTERS
Yet they ALL claim to be GOOD PEOPLE

Go figure that out and I will continue this after your response

@Spence
You wrote:
I mean that I'm in a deep state of conflict between the two sides of Gurinder.
The one I love within, who has helped me and helped raise my son, who was chosen by Maharaji, the one whose Satsangs are funny, inspiring, compassionate, forgiving, wise and powerful.
and the one who is clearly a mastermind of financial schemes, a fraud and a thief, and worse still, silent and unresponsive.


The issue is with labels.
You are labelling Gurinder as, in your words,
A THIEF
A FRAUD
And on top of all that, guilty because of his silence on the matter.

Like I said in my previous posting, we all commit “crimes” but justify them
Example from the Ray comfort’s video I posted
Ray: Every stolen anything?
NO
Ray: Downloaded music illegally?
YES
Ray: Then you HAVE stolen , and you are a THIEF

The issue is with labels.
A person tells a lie. Deal with the lie. If there was a reason, it’s fine.
LABEL version
The person told a LIE so he is a LIAR (It’s PERSONAL)
Now it’s about the PERSON not the ACT. (by the way this is what Judgemental means)
So a LIAR is a BAD person.
So you have LABELLED gurinder as a LIAR and a FRAUD
So in your mind he is a BAD person
And it’s not good to let a BAD person off the hook.
But – if you’re a Christian,
I am sorry – but you can let a bad person off the hook
Because your God does it.
If you say “I let Jesus into my heart” that’s it – you are forgiven – no matter how BAD you was!
Does this make any sense at all?

Sidebar on JUDGEMENT
Person X told a lie – or more accurately it appears to me he was untruthful
Person X did something I think was fraudulent (but I could be wrong after further facts come out)
Stating the above is not being Judgemental – because you are not concluding the person is a BAD person.
However, as soon as you say “Person X is a LIAR” – that is a judgement
As soon as you say “Person X is a FRAUDSTER” – that is a judgement

So Spence, when you say “I try not to be judgemental”
You are telling a lie (but I won’t label you as a LIAR)
You are lying because you have already passed judgement.
But you justify it in your own mind, so you still claim to be a good person.

This is the process and that is why you have conflict.
Gurinder is not anything – either good or bad. He is a person.
Some things you will LIKE about him and some things you won’t like.
That is to do with your own personal likes and dislikes.


Now for the truth
There are no BAD people.
There are no GOOD people
There are just people

Some examples:
A muslim (Eats HALAL meat only)
A Christian (Eats meat – except certain meats)
A Sikh (eats non HALAL meat)
A RSSB follower (Doesn’t eat meat)
Me (Osho Robbins) (Irrelevant)

Each of them have different beliefs about Good and bad.
A muslim thinks eating meat does not make him bad
The RSSB begs to differ and says it is evil to kill animals
The muslim says “God allows it in the Koran – so it’s okay”
Some Sikhs eat meat but consider “halal meat” bad because it causes more pain to the animal (the blood is drained apparently)
Each has their own reason.
So what is the truth?
I would say the last person on the list has the truth (but I am biased)
Osho Robbins says “It’s all bullshit”
Everyone has their own standards and they feel their standard is the truth.

Spence has a different standard from GSD
Spence may commit small frauds (like a small lie of his tax form)
But if the gets caught – I am sure the IRS will not consider it a SMALL lie

Kids play with toy cars
Grownups play with bigger cars
Billionaires play with even bigger cars.
Obviously the size of a fraud is going to be in line with the game you are playing.
A billionaire is not going to care about a few hundred thousand dollars.
A person running a $100.000 a year business cares even about $5000

In your mind Gurinder is guilty because you have labelled him a criminal
You have further evidence because he has not given an explanation.
The silence means he is guilty, in your mind.

None of this is actually true.

GOOD and BAD are arbitrary standards.

@Spence
So, I can't resolve it. But I know for a Subjective fact the subjective truth of the inner one.
And I know for an objective fact, the truth of the outer one, the physical one.
And what does the inner one tell me?
"Go with your gut! "
What does Maharaji say within? "Proceed. Your judgment is not wrong."
But this is subjective.
It's not my imagination, sadly.

There are no Subjective facts – subjective means it’s not a fact.
You also don’t know the objective facts – you only have one version – there has been no trial. You don’t know what the agreement was between the singh brothers and the dhillon empire.
People fall out in business all the time – and they sue each other also – it’s normal in business. Fraud also happens all the time. There is a fine line between legal and fraud.
Tax evasion is illegal and called fraud
Tax avoidance is legal and not called fraud.
Both accomplish the same outcome – to save tax.
Fine line.

When you say the inner master says “Go with your gut”
Tell him you want answers – not “777” type answers – but clear ones.
If he cant give them – then you are deluded because you have no inner master.
Your inner master then tells you that you are not wrong
Meaning, You are right.
How can your inner master disagree with the outer one?
Is this some kind of Schizophrenia?
What’s the point of having a living master?
If he is not going to agree with you inner one?
If you have an inner message from the inner master
You go tell the outer master and he says, “No – you are mistaken”
Are you going to go with the inner or the outer?
If the inner, then why bother having an outer?

Otherwise you are cutting at the very core of the RSSB teachings of needing a living master.
Why would you need a living master if he is not reliable?

If you go with the inner, then you have to logically drop the whole RSSB teachings because the outer master is fundamental to the teachings. Huge emphasis is put on the LIVING MASTER.
You no longer agree – so you don’t qualify as a believer. You can’t selectively choose what to believe and still claim to be a follower

@Spence

There is a reason for all this.
And we should be forgiving, and respectful.


Spence, can’t you see the obvious?
You just said “We should be forgiving and respectful”
But are you? Forgiving and respectful?
Clearly not forgiving and not respectful either
So why say the “should” when you are not!

Then you give your reason: (justification)
Which is also confirmed by you inner master to make it more real for you

But when laws have been broken and ethics violated, we must do our duty.
Because to forgive a crime when the crimes are still continuing is to aid the crime.
The only objectivity that exists is the evidence. And it is overwhelming. Fraud is fraud.


Now let me give you a new scenario
Gurinder calls you up
“Hey listen Spence, I have $50 Million for you here, all you have to do is……”

I am sure you will take the deal.
Especially if he assures you, you cannot get caught.

Then you won’t be accusing him of any crime, because you will be a beneficiary.
Before you say “I would never do that”
Watch this video by Derren Brown – could you kill a cat?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q2YSNm66sQQ


people do fraud and theft everyday – it’s commonplace.

If you don’t believe me – just watch mystery diners
Every episode contains fraud and theft
And when the people get caught – they justify it in various ways

So my question is:
Why are you so against GSD?
Especially as you claim to have an “inner gurinder?” that you claim to love

And just as a sidebar, you do know that if he does get convicted (which I am sure he is NOT going to let happen – lots of ways to avoid this) then RSSB will be finished overnight
For two reasons – (1) the govt may take over all the property as proceeds of crime
And (2) a convicted guru is going to shatter everyone belief – who can possibly
A legit successor after that?

So – here is the answer to your big question:
GSD does not claim to be a perfect man, because there is no such thing.
If he had done something shocking like murder, you might make a big thing of it.
But what he has done (if he has done it) is what businesses do every day.
They just don’t get caught.
Personally I don’t think it’s a big deal. It’s normal.
A business deal was made to make certain payments
When they wanted the money back – it couldn’t be given because the property market declined sharply.
What do you want him to do?
One minute he is your guru – the next he is a criminal
That is your love?
Please don’t insult the word love.
And you can’t love the inner when you hate the outer
It’s inconsistent and delusional.


@spence
if you want to know some of the biggest scams in history
the Fed, the IRS, all these are real scams

JFK got shot - trying to free america by disbanding the fed

now that is also a crime and much much bigger

murder is nothing to the real criminals - yet nobody does anything about that

Ask you inner guru about that

Osho today :
""" Tell him you want answers – not “777” type answers – but clear ones.""""

Not speaking about the moronic of this statement without semantics of 'type'

. . . this is the the precise example of the dishonesty
of shoving people out of the way , far away,
next discussing about them

Btw
I came only to promote healthy reasoning !

777

It's OK Osho.
Different values.

@777
it's nothing personal - I am not criticizing you
"777" has just become a noun for me here - so don't get upset over it.

I also go into 777 mode at times - so it's not big deal

Hi Osho
You wrote
"A business deal was made to make certain payments
When they wanted the money back – it couldn’t be given because the property market declined sharply."

Unfortunately, Osho, this is not accurate.

A major stockholder at Religare used his influence to place two of his relatives in high positions at the newly formed Fortis, and his own son as their senior Operations officer.

Both of the relatives had already been found guilty of tainted meds at their prior company. They sold the company without disclosing this, and used the money to help start Religare. And to appoint this major stockholder to the Religare board.

While at Fortis they gave a series of loans to a dozen different companies that all shared the same small leathergoods storefront address.

When the loan payments came due these two just created new loans.

None of the loans had collateral.

No payments were ever made on them.

The total loans exceeded $400 million US. And all were made in secret, hidden from board oversight, and in violation of both company policy and standard financial practice.

And all these companies had one thing in common, besides their single tiny storefront address : The senior principle owner is the wife of the major Religare stockholder.

This was a designed scheme. It's called a shell scheme and these were shell companies.

All the above is fact, established by two independent audits conducted by the board, who, on the basis of these audits, forced the two to leave their positions at Fortis. The two have never contested their legal rights to a fair decision simply because the evidence is overwhelming and to bring this into court will also pull in all the accomplices involved.

Now much of the board is trying to get their money back, even though one of the board members is also the major Religare stock holder mentioned above. Even in his senior role he was unable to prevent their expulsion, due to the strength of the evidence, and obviously, his role in the affair. Still, the board wants some level of justice.

If they don't get some recompense and acknowledgement the next step is the courts, because all the evidence has already been established.

@Spence Tepper

This comment is going to focus on one thing alone
I concede the matter that you detailed above - I have not looked into the details - and you obviously have. You didn't mention names - you said "wife of" presumably thats the wife of GSD. you just didnt make it clear.

However, that aside, I have one specific point about "inner Gurus and Radiant forms.

First let's just make it clear

When you say inner guru - are you referring to the Radiant form as depicted in RSSB literature
which means the true form of the guru - you meet in the astral region.

and NOT: an image of the guru that may appear in your mind
or some delusional idea where you think the guru is talking to you

So does this radiant form appear once you leave your body and reach the first region?

that's the first criteria

If not- that ends the matter -because we are not talking about the radiant form in that case
so please clarify that first


@Spence

C O N S I S T E N C Y

According to the sant mat teachings the Radiant Form of the master is the TRUE FORM, while the outer master is a human being like us. However the outer master and the Radiant form are of the same person - the master.

It is inconsistent to separate them, into the GOOD and the BAD one.

it makes a complete mockery of the whole teachings to say
"The inner master is the true and honest one - whereas the outer physical guru may lie, cheat, commit fraud and may be dishonest, but don't worry, you just hold on to the inner guru and forget all about the outer physical guru"

In fact the teaching say the opposite. The disciple who genuinely has the Radiant form and communicates with it daily, also has great love for the physical master.

I can even cite an incident about this. It was Sawan Singh - who was sad one day about his guru Baba Jaimal SIngh. A disciple asked - "But you have his inner form inside you?"

Sawan replied, "What I would give for just a glimpse of the physical again!"

meaning he has supreme love for the outer

not

"Yes the inner guru is great, but the outer is a complete asshole, that needs to go to jail"

I have never heard that version - except from you.

which begs the question - is you "inner master" real or imaginary?




@Spence

You are the only person to make such a statement

separating the two masters - the inner and the outer and asserting one is all pure and the other a hardened criminal

Do you stil consider yourself a follower of the sant mat teachings?

or have you now dropped those teachings as false?

Just want you to make your position clear




""If you met Gurinder physically, what would you feel? Love or hate?
And if you met him inside, would it be different?""

Inside it feels that HE was always there
before your first breath

The reason is that They are you
in the same sense that the Creator is You
but this is extremely comfortable

777


@777


""If you met Gurinder physically, what would you feel? Love or hate?
And if you met him inside, would it be different?""

Inside it feels that HE was always there
before your first breath

777 - Spence feels Gurinder should be in prison for his crimes

my question to him and to you is:

if he feels that strongly about the physical master,

how can he have love for the inner?

are they different?
is the outer not related to the inner?

@Spence

our account above doesnt mention names - just
"wife of..." "major stockholder"
please say who they are

you end by saying

Now much of the board is trying to get their money back, even though one of the board members is also the major Religare stock holder mentioned above. Even in his senior role he was unable to prevent their expulsion, due to the strength of the evidence, and obviously, his role in the affair. Still, the board wants some level of justice.
If they don't get some recompense and acknowledgement the next step is the courts, because all the evidence has already been established.

My pointot is this:
This is not exactly the crime of the century.
What made the news is the fact that the Singh brother lost a lot of money and went from billionaire status to almost penniless.

You say two people got fired, but they never went to prison - so it was clearly not a criminal matter.

Aren't you blowing this out of proportion?

Okay - I agree some shell companies were set up - and loans made, with agreements in place.

Happens all the time in business.

They never made any payments - as long as the two parties are happy to continue on that basis - it's nobody else's business.

You say it was done in secret - without the board being aware - well the chairman of the board must have known - as he is in charge.

Nothing happens without the knowledge of the chairman.

I haven't looked into it in detail - but from your account - not sure how you conclude that Gurinder is a criminal and should be behind bars.

If that was the case, how come he wasn't arrested at some point?

Go Osho
You wrote
"You say it was done in secret - without the board being aware - well the chairman of the board must have known - as he is in charge.

Nothing happens without the knowledge of the chairman."

Not in this case. When the board became aware they ordered up audits, the first by Luthra and Luthra accounting.

One board never was aware, Gurinder, but he was silent.
(You really should read this evidence for yourself, Osho.)

And then based on the evidence the expulsions.

And now the efforts to recuperate at much as possible by first attempting to settle out of court.

Yes its criminal activity, but you need a plaintiff willing to go to the police.. The plaintiff is getting to avoid the time and expense, if possiblem

@spence
"Yes its criminal activity, but you need a plaintiff willing to go to the police.. The plaintiff is getting to avoid the time and expense, if possible"

if it was a criminal matter, it would go to the police and he would be arrested. It doesn't involve the plaintiff in any costs. If the police take the case, it costs the police, not the plaintiff.

More likely - it's a civil case - and not criminal. Recovery of money owed is a civil case.

@Spence
I asked you


It is inconsistent to separate them, into the GOOD and the BAD one.

it makes a complete mockery of the whole teachings to say
"The inner master is the true and honest one - whereas the outer physical guru may lie, cheat, commit fraud and may be dishonest, but don't worry, you just hold on to the inner guru and forget all about the outer physical guru"

You have not addressed this point.

It appears to me you are not talking about the Radiant form of the master, but just your inner dialogue with an imaginary master within who you just call the "inner Gurinder"

That seems to be the only explanation. If not, please explain.

Spence will put Gurinder to prison even if he is not guilty. No Spence doesn't love Gurinder inner and outer.

Zu
You wrote
"Spence will put Gurinder to prison even if he is not guilty. No Spence doesn't love Gurinder inner and outer."

Not at all. You haven't read what I've written. I'll be the first to forgive and forget.

But a crime was committed, and the criminals at least need to acknowledge their complicity.

Their very silence is their admission they are, active or passive, accomplice to robbery.

More frightening is the willingness of peoole like you to justify criminal behavior.

Would you be so compassionate with your neighbor?

Would you shut the doors of every court, lay off all police, to justify every other criminal?

I would too, if there never were possibility of a victim.

But closing the charitable hospital crossed a line.

A curtain was forever torn.

And the light revealed an ugly truth about what people like you have created.

You are not defending Gurinder.

You are making excuses for your own failings.

Hi Osho
You ask
"It appears to me you are not talking about the Radiant form of the master, but just your inner dialogue with an imaginary master within who you just call the "inner Gurinder"

Perhaps this is the radient form.

As I've said before, it's subjective.

It seems you want to make it objective.

But why not clarify the objective? You can read the details for yourself directly. That much you can do. The picture they paint is ugly. But it is fact.

@spence

"It appears to me you are not talking about the Radiant form of the master, but just your inner dialogue with an imaginary master within who you just call the "inner Gurinder"

Perhaps this is the radiant form.
As I've said before, it's subjective.


So you are saying, anyone who claims to have the radiant form, is authentic, just because its subjective.

There are very specific criteria for the radiant form.

It is not the same as me imagining and thinking of Gurinder talking to that inner image.

That is definitely not the radiant form

Osho
It surprises me how concerned you are about the legitimacy of my personal subjective experience , how determined you seem to be to make me wrong, to disapprove any statement, to deny any possibility outside your definition.

But here we have a crime. A series of robberies have taken place. The evidence is objective and available due scrutiny.

These have no interest for you.

As I wrote earlier, we have different values.

@spence

you wrote:
It surprises me how concerned you are about the legitimacy of my personal subjective experience , how determined you seem to be to make me wrong, to disapprove any statement, to deny any possibility outside your definition.


I am not concerned and I am certainly not determined to make you wrong. I am going by what YOU are writing. Sant mat has certain criteria so people don’t kid themselves.
Die to Live page 222 states: “The whole world ceases to exist for you when you are in love, and when that state of love comes, only then you see the Radiant Form of the master – not before”
That is pretty clear. You have to have intense love for the physical master before you can hope for any inner darshan. So by that criteria, you are clearly deluded, as you have contempt for the outer master, yet claim to have the inner master. According to RSSB teachings, that is not possible, so you are deluded.
You seem fixated on the apparent crime of your master’s successor. You certainly have no love for him. Yet you claim to have made progress inside. You are clearly deluded, just based on your own statements, not my opinion.
It makes no difference to me.
Regarding the series of robberies…..
There have been no robberies, except in your mind. You are not an appointed judge.
It is a private matter between shareholders, the company board and the individuals concerned. You cannot call it a robbery.
You clearly do not love Gurinder, your master’s successor. You can’t think much of your master for appointing him. You question his decision to close the charity hospital.
You have in your mind created two masters – inner and outer. These are not the RSSB teachings. These are your own.
I don’t concern myself with the so called “wrongdoings” of Gurinder. I don’t have the evidence and I am not an appointed judge. There is not even a trial. The due process of law will handle this at the appropriate time. It’s not my job or yours.
However we are having a discussion, and according to the answers you are giving, you are clearly delusional about the “inner master.”
This is why I asked you to get clarification from the inner master, and all he told you was “you are not wrong” which is exactly what you would tell yourself. He gave no useful explanation

@Spence

Let's get real about this.

"Inner master" or "Radiant form" definitely does not mean a mental projection and then talking to that mental projection.

If that is the meaning of Radiant form to you, then obviously you can make up anything. You can ask that mental projection any question you want and get any answer you want.

No wonder you love the inner master - it's your own mental projection.

Right Osho there is total difference of appearance of inner stuff than imagine it of your own and there is also difference of mental illnes than Real inner stuff . Real inner stuff settles down with time as natural state.

Hi Osho
You wrote:
"That is pretty clear. You have to have intense love for the physical master before you can hope for any inner darshan. So by that criteria, you are clearly deluded, as you have contempt for the outer master, yet claim to have the inner master. According to RSSB teachings, that is not possible, so you are deluded. "

Osho, whether I love the Master or not, whether I am deluded or actually following Baba Ji's orders to the letter, how can anyone else know?

But I would certainly take your position from your point of view. I understand completely.
I wish there were a better way to explain things.

To be precise the crime is fraud and embezzlement:

?em·bez·zle·ment
/əmˈbezəlmənt/Submit
noun
theft or misappropriation of funds placed in one's trust or belonging to one's employer.
"charges of fraud and embezzlement"
synonyms: misappropriation, theft, stealing, robbery, thieving, pilfering, purloining, pilferage, appropriation, swindling; "

As for the crime, that is established by the evidence.

Baba Ji helped place his RSSB Board Chair, the Singh Brothers and his own son into key management positions at Fortis.

The Singh brothers made secret loans totalling over $40M to Baba Ji's wife, Subnam Singh, which were never repaid.

The loans had no collateral, in direct violation of company policy.

When loan payments were due, the brothers simply created new loans.

The board was not aware this was happening at the time.

This is siphoning corporate funds.

$400 M and more...embezzled from Fortis corporation into Subnam Dhillon's hands.

Very simple.
You can read the most recent article about the secret Dhillon family business sounds in this Forbes article that just came out three days ago.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/dennisjaffe/2018/09/24/how-to-lose-a-2-billion-family-inheritance-the-tale-of-the-singh-brothers-of-india/

Here's some additional links to some of the stories in the business press:

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/features/2018-08-16/billionaires-and-the-guru-how-an-indian-family-lost-2-billion

https://www.businesstoday.in/magazine/the-hub/the-baba-singh-brothers-and-the-squandered-rs-225000000000/story/281437.html

And here from Economic Times of Inda

http://hinessight.blogs.com/files/singh-brothers-story.pdf

And also, that Charitable Hospital Gurinder sold for profit...

Just to provide easy access to the facts, here is a summary and links to the evidence

Gurindar sold an RSSB charitable hospital, and all its acreage, to himself, into his private equity company, RHC, run by his son.

https://www.cnbctv18.com/views/the-devotion-of-the-singh-brothers-of-fortis-runs-deep-into-their-businesses-63575.htm

And in this legal document, where a construction company is suing RSSB and Fortis, it is confirmed.

https://indiankanoon.org/doc/87320658/


And more on the Embezzlement and the audits:
Here's some additional links to some of the stories in the business press:
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/features/2018-08-16/billionaires-and-the-guru-how-an-indian-family-lost-2-billion


https://www.businesstoday.in/magazine/the-hub/the-baba-singh-brothers-and-the-squandered-rs-225000000000/story/281437.html


Hi Osho:

"Dhillon is a cousin of the Singhs’ mother, and he became a surrogate father to them after the death of their own in the late 1990s. Since then, the finances of the spiritual leader and the brothers have grown intertwined, with money flowing from the Singhs to the Dhillon family via loans through shell companies and an array of arcane financial instruments, according to the documents and people familiar with the matter, who asked not to be named because of the ongoing legal probes. "

"Earlier this year, Bloomberg News reported that the Singhs had taken 5 billion rupees from Fortis without board approval and that a New York investor had filed a lawsuit accusing the brothers of siphoning 18 billion rupees from Religare."

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/features/2018-08-16/billionaires-and-the-guru-how-an-indian-family-lost-2-billion


You seem fixated on the apparent crime of your master’s successor. You certainly have no love for him. Yet you claim to have made progress inside. You are clearly deluded,

Um, there's a story in "Tales of the Mystic East" (5th Ed.) on pg. 42. It's titled
"Orders are Orders" about Farid. I couldn't find it later editions of Tales of
the Mystic East so I'll relate the gist.

The story is about a river that's changed course and is destroying the village
fields. Asked to intercede, Farid went to the river and put his attention inside
only to find it was ordained to happen like that. Farid then asks for a shovel
to help accelerate the erosion.

Clearly, had Farid's outer Master commanded him to help the villagers,
Farid would have been reviled as a crazed lunatic with no love for the
Master as well.

[ hopefully this won't be viewed as religious claptrap. The thread can be
migrated to AtheistsNBelievers if it is ]

@Spence
you very carefully missed out the following line from the above quote

Dhillon hasn't been accused of any wrongdoing

The article also says the guru was NOT the cause of the group's financial troubles.

Sunil Godhwani is however accused of being a key figure.

I have read the whole article and really can't see how you would call GSD a robber or a criminal and say he should be in prison.
Even the the fraud regulators have not yet reported their findings, but you have already had the trial

is this your main evidence? or you have anything better?


Hi Osho:

"money flowing from the Singhs to the Dhillon family via loans through shell companies and an array of arcane financial instruments, according to the documents and people familiar with the matter"

Osho, this money flowed directly into Subnam's hands. And you need to read further down:
"They’re less generous to another follower of the spiritual group, Sunil Godhwani, whom they say was appointed to lead Religare at Dhillon’s recommendation. They say Godhwani was also in charge of their holding company, RHC Holding Pvt., and often took decisions without informing them. They say he was the architect of the financial structures, including the loans to the Dhillon family and companies, that led to their financial troubles."

Godwhani was assigned by Gurinder. Gurinder assigns Godwhani, who then moves money to Gurindar and his wife via "loans" with no capital required, and which were never repaid, through the Singh's who then blame him.

That responsibility falls upon the Master.

"But most importantly, Rs2,700 crore were transferred to companies owned by the Dhillon family, Gurinder Dhillons wife Shabnam Dhillon and companies associated with RSSB's senior functionaries. While Religare and Fortis are examples of reckless expansion and its consequences, the money transferred to Dhillon and associates-which (with interest) is now estimated to be between Rs4000-5,000 crore-remains unpaid to the Singhs.

It isnt clear why this money was never returned."

https://www.businesstoday.in/magazine/the-hub/the-baba-singh-brothers-and-the-squandered-rs-225000000000/story/281437.html

The mix of RSSB board members and staff is deeply involved in these dealings:

Prius Platinum, Ground Floor, D3, District Centre, Saket, New Delhi-110017' could pass off as a nondescript address. Until you notice a striking similarity: Company after company registering it as their official address in the RoC records. At least 16 at last count. Many of them have even declared the same email ID in the RoC records: [email protected]ail.com; and are also being audited by the same firm.

Prius Real Estate, Prius Commercial Projects, Best Healthcare, Modland Wears, Fern Healthcare, Addon Realty, Hillgrow Infrastructure, Bestest Developers, Platinum Infrastructure. Even the Singh family's holding companies, RHC Holding and Oscar Investments, have declared it as their address.

Nearly Rs2,700 crore was routed to these Dhillon-RSSB functionaries companies between 2009 and 2012 through a layered and complex web of subsidiaries. Of that, Rs2,000 crore was invested in two firms--Prius Real Estate and Prius Commercial Projects.

RoC records say Prius Commercial is 84 per cent owned by Dhillons wife Shabnam and 16 per cent by RSSB Delhi head Yuvraj Narain Gorwaney. Prius Real Estate is 50:50 owned by Dhillons elder son Gurpreet and RSSBs Rajveer Singh. Addon Realty, which got Rs100 crore from Fortis, is also run by RSSB's Yuvraj Narain Gorwaney, his wife Sangeeta Narain and another Satsangi and Singh brothers cousin Sharanbir Singh Sandhu. SGGD Projects is run by brothers Vaibhav and Rahul Wadhwa, both employees of RSSB at Beas. Rahul Wadhwa was also a former Fortis employee. Lowe Infra and Wellness is another realty firm run by Sharanbir Singh Sandhu and Rahul Wadhwa. Singhs now own a majority of this firm. Hillgrow is run by another senior RSSB functionary & Singhs cousin, Jagatbir Singh Sandhu, as its director and signatory.

"Prius Platinum, Ground Floor, D3, District Centre, Saket, New Delhi-110017' could pass off as a nondescript address. Until you notice a striking similarity: Company after company registering it as their official address in the RoC records. At least 16 at last count. Many of them have even declared the same email ID in the RoC records: [email protected]; and are also being audited by the same firm.

"Prius Real Estate, Prius Commercial Projects, Best Healthcare, Modland Wears, Fern Healthcare, Addon Realty, Hillgrow Infrastructure, Bestest Developers, Platinum Infrastructure. Even the Singh family's holding companies, RHC Holding and Oscar Investments, have declared it as their address.

"Nearly Rs2,700 crore was routed to these Dhillon-RSSB functionaries companies between 2009 and 2012 through a layered and complex web of subsidiaries. Of that, Rs2,000 crore was invested in two firms--Prius Real Estate and Prius Commercial Projects.

"RoC records say Prius Commercial is 84 per cent owned by Dhillons wife Shabnam and 16 per cent by RSSB Delhi head Yuvraj Narain Gorwaney. Prius Real Estate is 50:50 owned by Dhillons elder son Gurpreet and RSSBs Rajveer Singh. Addon Realty, which got Rs100 crore from Fortis, is also run by RSSB's Yuvraj Narain Gorwaney, his wife Sangeeta Narain and another Satsangi and Singh brothers cousin Sharanbir Singh Sandhu. SGGD Projects is run by brothers Vaibhav and Rahul Wadhwa, both employees of RSSB at Beas. Rahul Wadhwa was also a former Fortis employee. Lowe Infra and Wellness is another realty firm run by Sharanbir Singh Sandhu and Rahul Wadhwa. Singhs now own a majority of this firm. Hillgrow is run by another senior RSSB functionary & Singhs cousin, Jagatbir Singh Sandhu, as its director and signatory.

https://www.businesstoday.in/magazine/the-hub/the-baba-singh-brothers-and-the-squandered-rs-225000000000/story/281437.html

"They also loaned vast amounts of money to companies owned by a family headed by a spiritual leader whom they followed and who was a relative of theirs — Gurinder Singh Dhillon. Dhillon was a businessman as well, and he and members of his sect were central to investments made with loans from the brothers, including investments in a wide-ranging real-estate portfolio."


"The web is tangled, and some of the Singh brothers’ affairs are currently under criminal investigation by financial authorities. There are allegations of forged documents and the illegal movement of money from public companies to cover loans and investment losses elsewhere. The brothers also lost a lawsuit from the company that bought Ranbaxy for not disclosing problems in the company before the sale, and for this they owe many millions. It appears that the loans and the income from the sale were used to greatly expand their companies — before a downturn, including a real-estate downturn, led to losses in every area of investment."

"What happened? First of all, there seems to have been no established principles or procedures regarding how money was managed in the Singh family. Money was moved from one entity to another, and in some cases, there was a board and executives who were not consulted. The brothers appeared to believe that their financial empire was theirs to control. They were heirs to a long tradition of family secrecy and lack of oversight. This legacy left them unprepared to exercise business discipline or recognize their responsibility to other shareholders outside the family"

https://www.forbes.com/sites/dennisjaffe/2018/09/24/how-to-lose-a-2-billion-family-inheritance-the-tale-of-the-singh-brothers-of-india/#786695bc567a

And money was directly handed to Gurinder's sons...

"While many of these firms are alleged to be directly or indirectly controlled by the Dhillon family, the Dhillons themselves have had direct dealings with Singh family firms. During Religares public issue in 2007, 62.50 lakh shares representing 9.17 per cent equity each were allotted to Dhillons sons Gurpreet and Gurkirat."

https://www.businesstoday.in/magazine/the-hub/the-baba-singh-brothers-and-the-squandered-rs-225000000000/story/281437.html


"While many of these firms are alleged to be directly or indirectly controlled by the Dhillon family, the Dhillons themselves have had direct dealings with Singh family firms. During Religares public issue in 2007, 62.50 lakh shares representing 9.17 per cent equity each were allotted to Dhillons sons Gurpreet and Gurkirat."

I remember in Maharaji's era, the RSSB guro's job was characterized as
one that would bring down an ordinary CEO within months. The touring
alone would leave them isolated and out of touch. Within that quarter
century, that burden must certainly have increased.

Who under those circumstances, might not have delegated many
of the RSSB organizational matters and especially personal financial
affairs to others. Why a relentless drumbeat of hints/innuendo that
GSD was greedy and complicit? Or that any self-respecting GIHF
should've known and headed off scandal at the pass. Or that
he should've micro-managed others to do it for him?

There's more to unfold.


Light on sant mat P168
The radiant form of the master is contacted only after one has completely withdrawn his consciousness from the body (i.e. body goes numb) and has gone up and crossed the stars, sun and moon.

This is very clear. These are the teachings. What you are calling the “inner master”, the one you claim is the “good master” is imaginary. That is why it has no answers.
To take an imagined inner image as the radiant form is delusion. The criteria is that your body should be numb and you will first cross the stars, sun, moon.

@spence


It isnt clear why this money was never returned. Dhillon and the Singh brothers did not respond to detailed questions on whether this money was owed to Dhillon and associates for any previous transactions or was only loaned to them.

This is not conclusive evidence. The article says it is unknown.


In the last hearing of the case on August 10, the Delhi High Court froze all bank accounts of the brothers alleging they misled the courts.

Starved of cash, businesses went into a tailspin.

this is a major reason why the singh brothers went under.

If bank accounts get frozen, you can't pay debts, and the bank re-possessed, taking pledged shares. All they could do is watch as their accounts were frozen.


To take an imagined inner image as the radiant form is delusion. The criteria is that your body should be numb and you will first cross the stars, sun, moon.

Hi Osho,

I suggest that you migrate this thread to AtheistsNBelievers since it's
getting more heavily religious.

Yes, the "inner master" is Imagination in the beginning. But imagination
is not "delusion" in mystic teachings. As many mystics have famously
remarked "imagination is not as imaginary as we think".

The disciple imagines the master before him at the "third eye', holds
that image steadily, does simran to distance himself from the mind's
thoughts, and/or listens to inner sounds to complete his concentration.
When he perceives the inner form, he receives guidance to go forward.

By the way, the Master lives with his own Master's form before him at
all times. And, yes, at that point, the inner Master does have answers.

@Spence

clearly there are allegations from both sides


Sources close to Godhwani, however, say the brothers were informed of every move and they signed on most of the documents.

With both the Dhillons and the Singh brothers refusing to respond to detailed questionnaires, it's hard to decipher what transpired in their business dealings.

it is by no means a conclusive matter. Lots of unanswered questions, which is normal, because unless it goes to court, there is no obligation to answer questions.

The conclusion you have reached of criminal activity is unfounded

Yes, thank you Dungeness:

Osho, you may share your views about the inner Master and what is or is not legitimately the Radiant Form on AtheistNBeliever, where it is respected as a subjective opinion.

But here it is just religion and off topic. Just dogma. That can never be an excuse for fraud and corruption.

This site is for those who reject religious dogma of all kinds, whether old or new versions.

But if the question of 'what is the true Radiant Form of the Master?' matters to you, and you believe it is more than imagination, please by all means elucidate that opinion here:

https://atheistnbeliever.blogs.com/atheistnbeliever/2018/12/religion-spirituality-and-money-number-1.html

@Spence

You are an outsider. You don't know the inside details of any of this.
Neither do I.

It is unreasonable to come to the conclusions that you have come to.

There are allegations made - but you seem to have concluded that the matter is already resolved.

There are on-going investigations.

That is a far cry from "GSD should be in prison"

You inner master is wrong because he is no more than your own mind

@dungeness
You wrote:
I suggest that you migrate this thread to AtheistsNBelievers since it's
getting more heavily religious.

I am not preaching. I am stating what is written is RSSB books to clarify a point.
Preaching is when you list long religious dogma to try to convert others.

You wrote:
Yes, the "inner master" is Imagination in the beginning. But imagination
is not "delusion" in mystic teachings.

Yes – but the “image” you create is not the radiant form – but your own imagination.
And it would clearly be delusion to talk to an imagined inner master and take the answers as real.
I can imagine a master within me right now and ask him any question and get any answer. Are you seriously suggesting that it is not delusional to rely on such an answer?

You wrote:
The disciple imagines the master before him at the "third eye', holds
that image steadily, does simran to distance himself from the mind's
thoughts, and/or listens to inner sounds to complete his concentration.
When he perceives the inner form, he receives guidance to go forward.


Are you speaking from experience?
Such a belief is not only delusional, but also dangerous. You would be classified as mentally ill if you took decisions on such an imagined inner master

You wrote:
By the way, the Master lives with his own Master's form before him at
all times. And, yes, at that point, the inner Master does have answers.

How do you know this?
What a weird belief to hold. Doesn’t match reality.
If it was true it would be impossible for GSD to close the charitable hospital.

@dungeness
You wrote:
Clearly, had Farid's outer Master commanded him to help the villagers,
Farid would have been reviled as a crazed lunatic with no love for the
Master as well.

This is a circular argument, as you are assuming the thing you are concluding.
Your assumption is that the inner and outer master can be in conflict.
Do you even realise how ridiculous these ideas are?
I would mean you could go to the mic and ask your guru some question
When he replies, you can say “Sorry dude, but the inner master disagrees”
This idea of two masters who can disagree is a teaching Spence has created,
And you seem to be in agreement.


I am not preaching. I am stating what is written is RSSB books to clarify a point.
Preaching is when you list long religious dogma to try to convert others.

The unholy trinity includes "preachiness, dogmatism, fundamentalism".
Citing passages fron RSSB books and discussing in depth as we're
doing certainly flirts with the latter two.


Yes – but the “image” you create is not... I can imagine a master within me right now and ask him any question and get any answer. Are you seriously suggesting that it is not delusional to rely on such an answer?

Yes, it's delusional if you haven't completed the full course of
concentration and reached the inner master. Again, though,
I believe this follow-on crosses a religious "dogmatism" threshold
and warrants migration to the "AnB" blog.


The disciple imagines the master before him at the "third eye', holds
that image steadily, ... Are you speaking from experience?

Now you know better than that :)


Such a belief is not only delusional, but also dangerous. You would be classified as mentally ill if you took decisions on such an imagined inner master

Yes, it would be if you didn't complete the course of concentration and
reach the inner form. Your own mental creations disappear at that point.

How you know?

You must experience it yourself. There is no other way to be
convinced; otherwise, you'll always have doubt.


This idea of two masters who can disagree is a teaching Spence has created,
And you seem to be in agreement.

I'm afraid that can always potentially be true. The outer Master in
Farid's case might have found it dangerous to say "yeah, go speed
up erosion so people will starve" because the villagers would see it
as an act of lunacy. But maybe in the long run it was best for the
villagers to migrate because a marauding army would come in a
few years later and destroy everything in its path.

So the outer Master who could see this coming would say one thing
outside and have the inner master say sumptin' entirely different
inside.

Hey, I know we're going on a religious limb with this kind of talk. As
I mentioned, it's time to get outta Dodge before the villagers come
with torches and pitchforks.

@dungeness
you wrote:
Yes, it's delusional if you haven't completed the full course of
concentration and reached the inner master.

And exactly how do you know when you have completed it?
Anyone can make any claim they want to. And they may believe it.

you also say:
Your own mental creations disappear at that point.

please explain HOW you know something is not your own mental creation.

you have a mind?
can it create mental images and ideas?
that is called a mental creation.

if something is not a mental creation, what is it?
and how do you know?

delusional people think they know

this person is delusional
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AuFXyuH1voM

but nothing compared to a religiously deluded person.

Let say your inner master tells you to go kill someone
You check with you outer guru and he says no
Your inner guru tells you its for their benefit and you do it.

The whole point of the outer guru is for guidance
GSD has Q&A sessions. Why? if they are not reliable answers.

Spence is not following RSSB teachings. neither are you.
but in your minds you both are

that is delusional.

the story you quoted about farid is in tales of the mystic east
but the conclusion is not - its your own conclusion


if something is not a mental creation, what is it?
and how do you know?...

Let say your inner master tells you to go kill someone
You check with you outer guru and he says no
Your inner guru tells you its for their benefit and you do it.

Mysticism is a path of experience, of a "knowing" that transcends
time-space and mental arguments. Projecting a scenario about
an inner guru telling you to kill simply frames yet another mental
construct. It immerses you in fear and doubt and whispers "You'll
always live in this uncertainty. There is no way of knowing anything
beyond what I've given you."


The whole point of the outer guru is for guidance GSD has
Q&A sessions. Why? if they are not reliable answers.

They can certainly give you guidance when you're ready to
receive it. They can advise, provide answers which resonate
with our intellect. But, ultimately it's a discipline to be practiced,
a path to be experienced inside. That's where you find the real
answers.


@Dungeness & Spence

What "Real answers" have you found?

It's easy to state theory.

That is just a belief until you do it for yourself.

I am asking if you have done it - or are just staing what the books say will happen... one day.

Spence claims to have the inner master - but that inner master supplies no answers except a vague "you are right" which means nothing.
And he wants to put GSD beihind bars as in his mind he is already a convicted criminal.

These are not the signs of a devoted disciple who has inner experience.

A devoted disciple would gladly sacrifice his life for his master - that is devotion.

So - the point I am making is really simple:

How can a devotee who wants to put his outer master behind bars, legitimately have an inner connection with the master?

It is impossible.
Spence has an answer - albeit a strange one. He says there are two gurinders.

The one inside who guides him and the outer criminal / robber.

You quoted the story of Farid, the moral of which is "the will of the lord"
but you twisted it to mean that the inner and outer master can disagree.

I am afraid that makes no sense at all. If it did - then it gives a disciple free licence to make up his own teachings since the inner master has precedence over the outer.

The actual teachings are very different. Sawan once said "Oh what I would give for just a glimpse of my master again" and the disciples said "But you have him within" and he said "but the physical form has it's own special beauty" (thats the gist, may be paraphrased)

If the inner master gives no reliable answers, how can you think he is authentic.

I gave the above example in order to make a point - which you have not answered other than a vague "you'll know it when you get there"

@dungeness
"That's where you find the real answers. (inner guru)"

Spence claims to have the inner guru but no answers as to why the outer guru is a robber. He sincerely wants answers - perhaps you can oblige since you also have the same inner guru. Since his is not responding very well - perhaps yours can give him a helping hand.

Do you see the point I am making?
If the inner guru cannot give you any correct information and answers, how do you know you aren't deluded?

and it's no good saying " I just know" because that is the same answer a deluded person is going to give you.

The way you know a person is deluded is the things he says are unreasonable.

I can show you example after example.

just a quick search on youtube will give you hundreds of deluded people who think crazy things like "I am Jesus" and others even believe them.

How is their experience any less valid that say, yours or Spence's?



The way you know a person is deluded is the things he says are unreasonable.

Hi Osho,

So much of what happens is unreasonable, what is said about it
even crazier, and the dogma that rushes in to fill the void may be
the craziest of all.

We struggle to find consistency in any of it. We're trapped within
our own flawed thinking and the only relief we have is deciding
"Well, I may be crazy but that poor deluded nut job over there
needs real help".

I suggest we ignore opinions, swear off blogs, concentrate on a
simple path of mindfulness which has been shown to be healthy,
and enhances happiness, From a little cozy nook inside, you can
survey the jungles outside, sigh, and wonder what the hell was I
doing out there.

Hi Osho:

You wrote:
"If the inner guru cannot give you any correct information and answers, how do you know you aren't deluded?"

If you are a student of Sant Mat, you must have read in so many places that each of us must make up our own mind. At best, or at first, that the the entire path: Self realization before God realization.

You are inventing a new theology, one where inner revelations are objective fact.

Very few people I know, either Satsangis, or Christians or Jews or even Spiritual Mediums, Sufis or native American Shamen ever claim their knowledge is more than symbolic and subjective.

Inner experience, inner awakening is not terminal, but directional. Inner experience causes us to look more closely at things, more critically, with greater understanding. It isn't a substitute for using one's own judgement. Quite the opposite, it is a refinement of that awareness and judgement.

Yet that experience, as Dungeness so eloquently refers to, makes our own insight that much clearer. And is is filled with a greater sense of oneness, and understanding.

Yet even insight is subjective and subject to error.

Who dare claim they are beyond the potential of error?
Is that your claim Osho?

Let me suggest to any reader here to take a look at the amount of time Osho spends trying to label and squeeze other people's experience, that no one can ever know, into a box.

Osho, why not state your own views without reference to anyone else?

Try it.

That's actually what the Path is all about. Taking responsibility for our own place.

"Who sums his fellows up at sight
Brings wonder to their eyes...
But he who sums himself aright...
Alone is truly wise.."
Tao

@Spence
In case you don’t realise it – we are discussing certain points here.
In particular the authenticity of the “inner guru” and whether the inner can be in conflict with the outer – which to me seems ridiculous – unless the “inner guru” is a delusion.
What my personal realization is – is irrelevant to this discussion, as that is not the topic we are on.
When my realisation is under discussion and scrutiny – as with AR – I respond as accurately as I can. I don’t run away or get defensive or say “hey – its subjective and that’s it”
Even a subjective experience has to be reasonable as far as it can be examined.
For example watch this
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6WgpCBo79DM
of course the guy could be for real and certainly believes it
but how likely – when you examine the evidence around what he does – is it that he really talks to God – as he claims?
That is how we decide – as humans. We don’t just believe every crackpot who makes a claim.
For example the majority of RSSB followers believe Gurinder is the guru because he was appointed – that is their evidence.
If I announce tis hat actually I was appointed – in the inner realms – nobody is likely to take me seriously (even if it was true) because it doesn’t fit the evidence.
We always examine anyone’s claims to see if they are reasonable. That examination is objective.
You tell me if you believe the guy in the video.
Here’s a guy many believed – until one day he just died
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tpDufCOAdZE
maybe this tramp is jesus – why would you not believe him?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MONwfJdXW6Y&t=1s
It’s a subjective experience - so why don’t you believe him?
Because of the OBJECTIVE evidence
It clearly points to the likelihood he has mental problems and is deluded
You don’t say “Hey – it’s subjective - so it’s believable”

@Spence

you wrote
Who dare claim they are beyond the potential of error?
Is that your claim Osho?

Let me suggest to any reader here to take a look at the amount of time Osho spends trying to label and squeeze other people's experience, that no one can ever know, into a box.

my reply:
these are all deflection tactics.

You came out with the theory of Two Gurinders
however you have not clarified if you meet the radiant form in the astral region, after crossing the stars, moon, sun.
I suspect not - but you have not replied. Most likely because the answer is no.
If that is the case - then we have the answer:
the inner guru you claim is not real - you have imagined it
thats why it doesn't answer

@spence

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uSwJuOPG4FI

at 54:00 into the video
lawrence says a woman had a clear revelation from god to drown her four children.
Since it was from god - she did it

is this REASONABLE?

you have to ask yourself if your belief / revelation / inner guru answer is reasonable

She is now in a mental institution

I see Appreciative Reader is still writing 10k word treatises about nothing. Look up the word "brevity" my dude and try reducing your asperger's induced stream of publicly funded academia tier ranting to 100 words or so.

It's good to see these sant mat guys finally being human and slightly masculine. The manufactured images of piety they present get so sickening. All I care to see at this point is the next guru ascend the gaddi by way of rear naked choke submission of his bloodied and bashed competitors in an UFC octagon.

Bruce Buffer will announce the winner while wearing a turban and carrying an unsheathed talwar. He will also take the loser of the fight's wife.

Hi Osho
You wrote
"You came out with the theory of Two Gurinders
however you have not clarified if you meet the radiant form in the astral region, after crossing the stars, moon, sun."

Osho, that is a discussion about spirituality, and inappropriate for Church of the Churchless. Let's honor Brian's request.

However I'm most happy to go into all that at Atheist and Believer, where discussions of inner experience are welcome, including both critique as well as support for such experience and discussion.

Brian has made it clear that this is not the place to expand upon the teachings or the experience of the teachings of Sant Mat here.

So if their defense is inappropriate here, so too is their attack, since an open dialogue would of necessity need to allow for both.

But there is a place where both are welcome.

And that is here...

https://atheistnbeliever.blogs.com/atheistnbeliever/

I look forward to continuing this dialogue with you there.


@Spence

Osho, that is a discussion about spirituality, and inappropriate for Church of the Churchless. Let's honor Brian's request.

really? are you seriously THAT deluded?
Brian does not want "preaching" - meaning useless claptrap like quoting long scriptures to validate your belief in a god etc.

I am asking you a very simple question. If can answer it - go ahead - I am sure Brian is not going to come over and shoot you - in fact I think he will be quite happy if you answer - ask him if you are in any doubt.

Brian has no issue with discussion of any point - and that is what we are doing - discussing your nothing of "two masters who can disagree with each other"

So please go ahead and answer

I am sure if Brian has an issue - he will say so.


@dungeness
You wrote:

Mysticism is a path of experience, of a "knowing" that transcends time-space and mental arguments. Projecting a scenario about an inner guru telling you to kill simply frames yet another mental construct.

I just gave you an example above of an actual true case of a mother who drowned her three children because "God" told her to. This is an actual incident that matches what I just said. Is it appropriate to believe an inner voice or an inner guru?

you write about "transcending time and space" without understanding the meaning and implications of time/space transcendence.

Once you transcend time / space – there are no “thoughts” because thoughts need time to exist.
Everything you “know” is through the mind and thoughts.
So if you transcend “Time and Space” there is nothing to “Know”
And also “You” don’t remain. It is impossible for “you” to remain because if there is no space then “where” will you exist?
Existence needs space.
The only “thing” that can exist in “no space, no time” is a thing that has certain properties. Those properties are :
It cannot have a “form” because everything that has a form needs space
It cannot move, as movement needs both time and space.
Because it cannot have a form it means it has no “boundary” – that means it has no beginning and no end – which is the same as saying infinite.
Once you state that it is “infinite” then you have to state there cannot be two or more
Because there can only be ONE infinity. It is impossible to have two infinities because
(a) The first one never ends – so how can the second one start?
(b) The meaning of formless is that it cannot possible ever end.
So this “thing” I have just described above only fits exactly into one definition known to man. It is what all his scriptures call God.

Infinite – everywhere – encompasses all time and space.
There is none else beside him – he is the only one.
He is never born and never dies – hence eternal
Has always existed and always will
changeless

Now here are a few of his attributes that the scriptures fail to tell you
(more accurately they may state it – but you miss it)

He does not think
He does not DO anything
He is not LOVE or compassion or any other idea you may have
He cannot see you – let alone judge you
He has zero attributes

So any notions you have of god are just fanciful thinking based on ignorance and your own limited thinking based in time and space.
Love or compassion cannot exist if there is only one.
Who will he love and have compassion for?
Who will he see – there is only him.
Who will he judge – there is nobody to judge and judgement requires a mind
He cannot have any attributes because attributes need time and space
Only things that are finite have attributes.
Scriptures DO in fact hint all this when they say
“anything you say about him will be a lie”
“neti neti” which means neither this nor that. Same as saying he is not a thing and has no attributes.
“aad Sach Jugaad Sach” which means was TRUE in the beginning and will remain TRUE forever . Here TRUE simply means non-changing, always the same.

Jesse:
gaddi by way of rear naked choke submission of his bloodiedcompetitors in an UFC octagon.

..........haha honey we made it brrrring out the rrred panties.we are rich


you write about "transcending time and space" without understanding the meaning and implications of time/space transcendence. Once you transcend time / space – there are no “thoughts”

Exactly. That's why I quoted "knowing". It transcends thought. It's
why the mystics say "neti, neti". They can only tell stories, offer
metaphors, talk of signposts, detail what;s experienced along
the "way". Ultimately, it's ineffability, a state of being.

Again, you're citing the case of hearing murderous voices inside
as a rationale to shed doubt but then chasing into cul-de-sacs
from which no clarity can emerge, seizing on contradictions,
juggling thoughts to attempt to disprove a path whose aim is to
transcend thought. The wheels just spin endlessly.

Why not just practice a simple mindfulness and see if beneficial.
Swear off any voices you hear. Ignore dogma, or whatever strikes
you as unproven. Then it just becomes a discipline of withdrawing
from that tsunami of confused, scattered thought which is with
us 24x7.

Hey, this is getting preachy. Forgive me, I have sinned. I'm headed
back to AtheistsNBelievers.

Dungeness
Beyond time and space there is no knowing either as there I nothing to know

Dungeness
I assume you are saying you have the knowing beyond time and space

Or you just heard about it?

What have you known?

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