Singh brothers get into fight over loans to RSSB guru and his family

Well, it's been a while since Malvinder and Shivinder Singh, cousins of Gurinder Singh Dhillon, the guru of Radha Soami Satsang Beas in India, have been in the news. 

(Being bad at genealogy, I used to think they were nephews; now I'm pretty sure they are cousins.)

But that changed yesterday. December 7 is remembered here in the United States as the day in 1941 when the Japanese attacked ships at Pearl Harbor in Hawaii. 
Looks like the Singh brothers wanted to make that date memorable in India for their own brotherly fireworks. Check out a December 7 The Times of India story, "Brother attacked me: Malvinder; no, he hit me, claims Shivinder."

Shivinder Singh has been mentioned as a possible successor to Gurinder Singh Dhillon, a guru who is considered to be God in Human Form by his devotees. 

But the guru isn't so divine as to shun worldly wealth, since as I've been reporting on this blog, Dhillon and his family have amassed hundreds of millions of dollars during his reign as RSSB guru. 

 

As reported by Bloomberg and others, this money accumulation was funded in part by shady loans made to the Dhillon family by companies controlled by the Singh brothers at the time. The chart above shows the money trail. 

 

The Singh brothers' business empire has fallen apart, leaving them as destitute as billionaires can be. So the fight between them involved money, not surprisingly -- the loans associated with the guru's family shown on the right side of the chart. I believe 2,000 crore rupees equals $20 billion in U.S. dollars. TOI is Times of India.

Since Shivinder Singh had gone to the RSSB headquarters to do volunteer work, perhaps in anticipation of his becoming guru one day, he seems to be the most "spiritual" of the brothers. But not so spiritual as to avoid getting into a fight with his brother over the loans to Gurinder Singh Dhillon and his family.

Just goes to show that religion does nothing to make people better human beings. In fact, religion often makes people worse, feeding their ego and sense of entitlement. "God is guiding me; God wants me to be wealthy."

Comments

[Dungeness]

Shivinder Singh has been mentioned as a possible successor to Gurinder Singh Dhillon, a guru who is considered to be God in Human Form by his devotees.

I think reports of his successor-hood may have been
greatly exaggerated. On the other hand, he;s shown
he could rule with a "firm hand".

[777]

""But not so spiritual as to avoid getting into a fight ""

Brian, I would read " The 10 Sikh Gurus". -forgot the author but. . . . . hahaha

They did so much fighting

And really if I could not communicate
with Gurinder in my inside
and if I wouldn't have seen that "form" at the outside . . .
while my wife saw the same "form" 5 meter staying away from me . .

I would (in a way ) start doubting
I wish and sincerely hope some psychic for the suffering readers

777

[Spence Tepper]

777
There are two Gurindars.
The one within who helped raise my son, and has my heart and love. He is as real as your love, and worthy of it.

And then there is the businessman / guru in India who, together with RSSB board members he himself picked created a very detailed plan for fraud that could only be hidden by an unsustainable bull market. That individual, who remains silent and irresponsible, must be tried in a court of law, take responsibility for their actions and publicly ask for forgiveness from those he has harmed.

If he came with no karma, he has a bit of work to do to leave that way.

[777]

@Spence

It's awesome but
my wife and I were 5, perhaps 10 meters
from each other
and then in clear daylight WE BOT saw this immense Light around Him ( in the car )
in the same way
as we had seen Charan in Delhi ( but that was late and dark )
between 8 thick raws of cars
and I said to our own taxi driver "Follow that Car"
and if not, . . . the guy had brought us to the wrong station ( he said)

Then the following :
Do you Spence, . . see Charan as That Immoral, . . that is
to refuse initiation to a guy or gurl asking for it but deny it,
if he couldn't really ""see"" , know that
this would be 4 their best !

Can You ?
Can anybody here ?
(expert the full_grown haters )

Next al always 'Physical Sinendipities'

[777]

°° except

[Arjuna]

@ Spencer and 777 - hello both.

I don’t want to upset Brian by discussing God on an athiest blog.

However this is disheartening to read - where is the real master then???? Who can help genuine people - a lot of thoughtful people reading this will be destroyed

[Osho Robbins]

Spence writes:

There are two Gurindars.
The one within who helped raise my son, and has my heart and love. He is as real as your love, and worthy of it.

And then there is the businessman / guru in India who, together with RSSB board members he himself picked created a very detailed plan for fraud that could only be hidden by an unsustainable bull market. That individual, who remains silent and irresponsible, must be tried in a court of law

This is delusional. You love and hate the same person. The inner one is a creation of your mind, just as all inner experiences are. It is also subjective and unreal because you can create whatever you want.
On the one hand you claim to love him, on the other hand you want him tried for fraud.
You have a very serious unresolved conflict. Even according to sant mat teachings, this is impossible.
Have you ever known a devotee who loves his master, yet hates his actions and wants him behind bars?

[Osho Robbins]

@Spence

Do you love Gurinder, the guru? Do you meditate and follow his path? Do you consider him the current GIHF and true successor at RSSB?
If you do, you can’t hate his actions. This is delusional.
Those who love him and follow his path, don’t care what the evidence points to, they will love him even if he was found guilty and in prison. You clearly don’t follow him and are just holding onto the “inner master”
If you hate the outer master, how can you possibly be having profound inner experiences, that only come from intense love?

If you met Gurinder physically, what would you feel? Love or hate?
And if you met him inside, would it be different?
There are no sant mat teachings that say there are two masters, as you have written. If there are, I invite you to post them here

[s*]

Personal I do'nt think that Spence hate him..
He do'nt justify the behavier.
He has an other Guru inside him he calls him ''differently in his inside.
We all have thoughts feelings perceptions in ourselves..
He wants to keep the good..
So I see it.
I do the same..
The good beautiful things do'nt have to go away,because they are ''ours''
Sort of...

[Spence Tepper]

Hi Osho
You wrote
"If you met Gurinder physically, what would you feel? Love or hate?
And if you met him inside, would it be different?
There are no sant mat teachings that say there are two masters, as you have written. If there are, I invite you to post them here,"

Let me ask you what you believe in this matter.
How do you reconcile proven fraud on such a large scale?

[Arjuna]

@ Spencer - the Master cane to the NEC in Birmingham U.K. in 1991 - his first visit . He said words to the effect that if the wind blows something from the neighbours land and puts something (think a seed or fruit) in your land . You will have to pay for it.

That was the first doubts I had but my mind was young and body in severe training with adrenaline from running 25 kilometres with a Bergen sack with 30 pounds on my back. So I let it go.

My point is that this fraud business had nothing to do with wind....

So where do we stand . You say the master has done fraud ! If that is the case the master you are seeing within us not a master but a feigment of your mental projections. As the outside master would be just a man and not be able to put his form in your eye centre.

This is Kals or lucifers or whatever you want to call him ( bob the builder!) greatest day(s).

None of this makes sense

[Spence Tepper]

Hi 777

You asked
"Do you Spence, . . see Charan as That Immoral, . . that is
to refuse initiation to a guy or gurl asking for it but deny it,
if he couldn't really ""see"" , know that
this would be 4 their best !"

Well we are in the realm of belief systems to answer that question, so please take my comments below as my personal subjective beliefs only.

When anyone asks God to be closer to God, they find it/him /her in the form best suited to them almost instantly, within. Once they calm down a bit then that truth is there. And that truth is generally their next step. Some aren't ready for a teacher, some are ready for a flawed teacher, others are ready for a perfect teacher. But the perfect teacher is always the one within.

As we are refined by facing life's difficulties with more honesty and strength, like gold refined in a fire, as we become a little cleaner, our environment changes accordingly, including the people around us. We can learn some great lessons from some very flawed people, if we are tuned to resonate to their teachings. Life does the tuning, it's beyond our control. But we can keep our plates clean through focus on the Truth and living a clean, simple and honest life.

No human being, whether seeker or Master can alter what we must face. But each has a role to play. And we have many teachers. A small flame is easily extinguished by a little wind. But a great flame is enlarged by a howling storm.

So if we are encouraged by difficulty, including the Master's rejection, to find that truth in ourselves, despite rejection, we are already quite advanced.

The Master also seeks his or her own level when picking disciples.

As for Shabd, it's there for those who experience it and worship it. And if you hear that sound and see that light while you are looking at someone else, you worship the Shabd, that Logos, Word, Christ you see in them, and don't even think about the human flaws of that same person. They are both there. The Shabd will show you all of it. You see God in them. The rest is like a flower unfolding.

Every human being carries flaws. But under those layers each of us is pure spirit.

Doesn't matter if that is a criminal, a friend or the Master.

There is zero difference.

Shabd will show you this.

Then things become very clear.

A true Master lives a very simple life. They might be found in a church, a synogogue, a mosque, a library, a diner, or a free-thinkers discussion group. They are never the leader. They are never the organizer. They come here for the ones who want to fit in, but don't fit in.

They are here for the ones who got rejected.

Those are the true Masters.

And you may find them here among us. How they live is their teaching.

They don't actually take disciples at all. But they do have friends.

When asked they point to the truth as their personal philosophical belief, not as a teaching for anyone. They may share what they have found, as a peer only.

Part of keeping their life focused on truth requires they keep it simple.

They don't have formal teachings. Just their own opinion about their own life, or life in general.

You must form your own philosophy from your own insight because they do not offer a system of any kind.

And then, when we think we need more, someone to lean on, there are the formal teachers. They give us wonderful lessons. They have systems and practices. The value of those is always what happens within us.

It is the art within yourself that is God, and your sincere practice that takes you to God within.

Anything that helps your personal meditation practice is good regardless of the source.

Anything that detracts or distracts from your practice is bad.

No true teacher touches anything corrupt. They live to the highest ethics, the highest moral standard. There is never anything to question. They just don't go there. They really away from those situations.

[Spence Tepper]

Hi Osho
You wrote
"Those who love him and follow his path, don’t care what the evidence points to, they will love him even if he was found guilty and in prison."

Yes, they are most open about acknowledging the facts. They know it is all part of the play.

It is the ones who make excuses who don't really love the Master. They love themselves as members with status in the Sangat. All this threatens them. But they will also need to be comforted, Osho.

It is the ones who love Gurindar who will place him in jail, if it comes to that. And Gurindar will say, "That's right. Good work."

[Osho Robbins]

@Arjuna
I don’t want to upset Brian by discussing God on an athiest blog.

However this is disheartening to read - where is the real master then???? Who can help genuine people - a lot of thoughtful people reading this will be destroyed

My reply:
Arjuna - you have mis-understood Brian.
I can assure you that Brian is not upset by you posting a comment.
Unless I am mistaken, it will take a lot more than that o upset the guy.

He was just making a point and questioning the motives. You are welcome to continue to post - nobody is upset about it.

You yourself said you would not post anymore - but there is no need to say that or do it.

post to your heart's content - nobody is upset.

Regarding the second point: believers will continue to believe. nothing to worry about.

or maybe that is the thing to worry about.

The path has never been about belief anyway.

and GSD has renamed it science of the soul

[s*]

arjuna,
I was very upset and scared about that text from the neighbour also when young..
I believed things like that and I got a bit sick scared psychoses really..
Later on I did not believe things like that any longer.
So I got a bit upset and later more and more upset about all the angst/fear mongering.
I too dropped that.
And dropped more and more from the teachings..
Later nearly everything.
So what I kept was good for me.
That was Love..

[Osho Robbins]

@Spence

you:
It is the ones who love Gurindar who will place him in jail, if it comes to that. And Gurindar will say, "That's right. Good work."

me:
That doesn’t make any sense. First of all – it would have to be fraud case, and then it will have to be proven and he will have a defence lawyer. So there is no way he would every say “Good job” to anyone who puts him in jail.
This is just not how it works in real life.
If that was the case, he would do it himself.
It’s hardly a sign of love to put the person you love in jail!
What you are saying is, he deserves to go to jail, because he is guilty of fraud.
If you love him, you would not want to put him in jail.
In the story of jesus, Simon cut off the centurian’s ear, when they were taking him away.

[Spence Tepper]

Hi Osho
You wrote
"This is just not how it works in real life."
Well, I'm glad someone knows this better than the rest of us.
So how does a perfect Master wind up as the mastermind of one of the largest fraud schemes anywhere in the world in modern times?

How does that work?

[Arjuna]

@ Osho - hello.

It’s all the more confusing now . The whole bundle

[Arjuna]

@ s.

Thank your comments / I guess love is all we need in the end and we must stop putting others including masters on pedestals.

[Spence Tepper]

Hi Arjuna
If an individual committs fraud who has otherwise led an exemplary life, is that possible?

Of course.
Can a perfect Master commit fraud?
Since I'm not perfect I can't judge that.

But if I know someone who did some beautiful things, and then they did some dishonest things, I would accept that this is how the world works, though I may not understand why.

So many great works by a leader were also attended with criminal activity by that same leader.

So we honor the good they did but also hold them responsible for the bad.

Because one of the great things they did was encourage us to do better, to be honest and responsible, and forgiving. Those were great teachings.

So we should all live those.

Of course there is no anger at all. Only love.
But sometimes a friend or a parent must set the limits when our great friend has crossed a line and committed crime.

No one should cover up the truth. We should handle the truth with complete compassion, forgiveness and honesty, but not lies or secrets, cover ups or pretense.

So I don't know how to judge someone else's character, especially someone living far away

But I do know what my personal duty is when someone I'm connected with is involved in crime. Once the crimes became proven fact by a wide range of sources, as they have, than my personal responsibility is clear. And that is to do absolutely nothing that would aid such crime. Including silent, passive support.

[Arjuna]

@ Spencer - it’s getting silly now - he is or he isn’t God! It’s that simple!

If not the search goes on

[Spence Tepper]

Hi Arjuna
You asked
"
he is or he isn’t God! It’s that simple!

If not the search goes on"

I tried to define above in detail what I believe are perfect Master's whom you could claim are truly One with God.

They don't have formal initiates or disciples. They don't start or lead organizations.

They are actually watching Gurindar and the flock carefully, there for those who need them. Stuff had to happen, has to happen.

But there are also great Spiritual teachers. Sant Mat practice works perfectly. They are great older brothers. So we must accept since we are flawed we may have to learn truth from flawed teachers.

That's fine too. That's how we learn most things anyway.

Your search should continue and include reaching out to the guy next to you on the underground.

[Spence Tepper]

Hi Arjuna
You wrote
"I guess love is all we need in the end and we must stop putting others including masters on pedestals."

So true. The real perfect Master never steps upon a pedestal.
They turn away from the dias. They never step upon the stage. You won't find them there.

But take a careful look in the audience. To the one next to you.

[Arjuna]

@ Spencer - why would a perfect master be watching Gurinder ?

[One Initiated]

Dear Brian,
Reading after so long, only to find you put comments on moderation.
I wanted to ask you if you'd like a parliament without an opposition ?
But you've already answered that by removing the moderation. Thank You.

Dear Arjuna,
How long it has been that you've attended HIS Satsang ?
If not lately, please do yourself a favour and try to get under HIS aura asap
and as frequently as you can.
If a disciple does NOTHING and just starts sitting under the Master's feet,
he will start getting oriented towards the Shabd in a beautiful way and automagically.

If you can attend to online charlatans,
you can surely attend to a live one (if you think of HIM to be that)

If you have some time, read the 10 pages of "Sar Bachan Sangrah" by Soami Ji.
The chapter "Bachan Ikkiswan (21)" - Hidayatnama - initial 10 pages. just that!
If you are into it, this reading alone will peel off several layers - equivalent to
months of meditation.

If you can see a huge light around the Master's physical appearance as depicted by 777
that he and his wife both saw them around Babaji,
And Spence saying that it's no difference you can see that around any disciple or friend
if you are seeing the One in that as every soul is actually (part of) the One.

However there is a slight misrepresentation in this expression,
you can see around anyone who is accomplished.
anyone and everyone can be accomplished, but not everyone right now is. HE is!

As Spence wrote:
"Master must be tried in a court of law", disciples being the judge. That's Impressive.

Dear Spence, that was above your payscale.
You are seeing HIM inside and insulting outside, in a manner which is mannerless.

You wrote:
"But sometimes a friend or a parent must set the limits when our great friend has crossed a line and committed crime."
I would call it your slight immaturity here, Spence.
You are not above the Master which you are mistakenly thinking of yourself to be.
Master doesn't need your orders or suggestions.

As HE said in October satsang:
"Master will never take an action to please the disciples."

In November Satsang, during a QnA:
"Master is not here to do what the disciple feels good, HE is here to do good for the disciple.
Whether the disciple likes it or not"

I congratulate to all those who were able to attend November's Delhi Satsang.
By HIS grace, I did attend.
HE delivered outstanding discourses, full of spiritual vibrations in every sentence.
Every inch of the satsang hall was filled with HIS charismatic presence.
The inner feeling attending HIS discourse for 2 hours is same and even above
than the inner feeling inside as the outcome of great 2 months of meditation.

[Spence Tepper]

Hi Arjuna
There are all sorts of safety nets.

You can rest assured you are not alone. The face of God may change for you several times, but each is legitimate.

Jesus is God. So is Moses, Kabir, Mohammed, Nanak. If you connect with them, even their writings, and you see perfection and God there, then worship that within. Because this is God worshiping himself /herself/itself through you. This is love merging with itself and you are along for the ride.

Because you are just riding this train of life rest assured there is a train conductor moving things along. Your Master has always been within you. If you need him to have a human face, then he will give you that. Whatever will help you understand the reality of Truth and Love, living within you.

Your destination is only Alak, agam, anami.

Why stop short?

But if you need to take smaller steps, that's all good, it coves from within. It's your path, brother.

[Arjuna]

@ Spencer thank you but you never answered my question

[Spence Tepper]

Hi Arjuna
Let me be more succinct.
There is no place God isn't.
He isn't only in the master but no one else.
The Lord can move the entire Sangat to look at a baba Ji and say WTF?

And if the only realised soup is on stage it isn't a real path.

But it is a real path and many realised souls are off stage also.

How to explain.

The line worker assigned to a job is supervised.

The supervisors have a manager.
The manager has a director.

All you are looking at is the line worker, the classroom teacher, who is truly great, just like Woody Allen. A perfect master of his work.

But always a human being with some human flaws.

His supervisors have a larger view and don't need to get involved. But they are there.

The moment they see you start to worry out comes the hand on your shoulder not to worry.

But not to worry really means trust your gut and stay or go as your gut tells you.

Make a decision, and follow that steadfastly. Everyone is supporting you. You won't be wrong.

[Spence Tepper]

Hi Arjuna
You wrote
"@ Spencer thank you but you never answered my question"

I think the question was
"@ Spencer - why would a perfect master be watching Gurinder ?"

Because he got involved with Fraud.

[Arjuna]

@ Spencer - on that basis I am Initiated by Gurinder but it means nothing as I have yet to come across one of the masters who no one knows about? Is that right?

So there is no inner master - no power no guide - do you see where I am getting at?

[Spence Tepper]

Hi Arjuna
You wrote
"So there is no inner master - no power no guide - do you see where I am getting at?"

Maybe. I think I may understand your question now. Thank you for restating it for me.

I think the argument, if I understand correctly is something like this... that

'if a guru is found to be a thief and has been found to be the mastermind of a multi-billion dollar fraud scheme, then they can't be a true guru representing God with any power to connect someone to God.'

'And therefore all claims of inner connection to this Guru, by others, must be pure imagination.'

Is that the gist of your thinking?

[Arjuna]

@ Spencer - spot on. You write better than I can but hell yes.

In a nutshell- the initiation I have is fake based on that premise and I have no inner master

[Spence Tepper]

Hi Arjuna
Hm. Well. You see when I came to the path the Satsangi who brought me was personal friends with the Master, Maharaji. Tommy and I were classmates in Southern California, though he was much older than I.

Tommy passed away four years ago and his beautiful wife sent me his correspondence with Master. They had written to each other over 150 letters, many hand written and signed by Maharaji himself.

So much personal attention and encouragement.

Yet when Tommy was teaching me about the path he said not to put anyone upon a pedestal, that we all have feet of clay.

So how can a flawed teacher instruct in something pure?

Happens all the time. Mathematics is instruction, science is Instruction in principles that are pure. Understanding those principles we can apply them and have greater power over our lives.

Even if the professor is flawed.

Tommy had also brought David Lane to the path and had actually been encouraging David to look at the teachings of Ekankar, and also encouraged him look at the lineages of the Masters, to explore the different branches, including Kirpal's teachings. This was all over forty years ago.

And he walked me through the paragraphs that were pure plagerism. Clearly this Paul Twitchell was a fraud, I thought.

But when Tommy wrote to Master about it, Master replied, and I'm paraphrasing, 'the seeker must make a decision for themselves. However, at least the reader is getting the right principles when they read these writings. '

So now I'm telling you the same thing. The principles are right. But you must find a teacher who, in your eyes, while not perfect, reflects the integrity of the teachings. Because the practice of Shabd is right, and the focus on Master is an incredible tool to enter that sea of love and higher understanding.

But only if the Master reflects those teachings in a way that you believe to be flawless, so that your own concentration can become singular and pure, without any doubt.

So you see, the point is your own development of perfect concentration upon the Spirit. That opens the door to Spirit. And focus /contemplation /worship of the spirit pulls you up.

Then you can see what is really going on.

If you pray to find such a one, you will. The power of nature is stronger than any of us. We are all children of nature. What you prau for sincerely, if it is right, will naturally flow to you. Prayer just eliminates all your other distractions and worries.

But I cannot fault your basic reasoning. It is correct insofar as it refers to the individual whom you know is concerned.

It is not correct in so far as the path is concerned. Or those souls that quietly go in and out several times a day.

[Arjuna]

@ Spencer thank you - however it’s late here and I need sleep. I will ponder what you have said and get back to you.

[David Lane]

Dear Spencer,

I think you have been given some false and misleading information from the late Tom Curtis concerning me.

First, Tom Curtis did not bring me to the path. Rather, I found out about it at the age of 17 from two sources: Johnny Haddad and James Lee Krohn, both who worked at two different restaurants. Anyone who knows me well knows that story. I only met Tom and his wife much later and he had absolutely nothing to do with me getting initiated or coming to the path. I wonder why he would tell you such a tall tale.

Second, Tom Curtis never encouraged me to look into the teachings of Eckankar. Rather, it was part and parcel of my research work for a class by Professor Happ at CSUN. I was the one who told Tom about the plagiarism and what I had uncovered. Simply put, he had absolutely nothing to do with my research. Rather, he took an interest in what I and others had uncovered. Tom got excited by what was discovered and tried to get the Dera to publish my paper, which I thought at the time was ill-conceived on his part.

Third, Tom never encouraged me to look into other branches of the tradition. That started because of a book I read at the age of 17 by Marvin Henry Harper entitled Gurus, Swamis, and Avatars, which talks about the differing branches.

I am bit surprised that Tom would provide you with such an inaccurate history concerning me, how I came to the path, my research on Eckankar, and the genealogical study of other branches.

I knew Tom and he would and I would have our differences, but I did indeed enjoy his early stories about the Dera, etc.

I am sorry that you have been given such faulty information.

If you wish to reach me directly, feel most free to write anytime at my email address.

Thank you

[spence tepper]

Hi David!

I apologize for the misunderstanding and very much appreciate the corrections.

You know best your own history.

I do recall Tom's great interest and support in what you were doing, both with the lineages, and his review with me. He showed me the taped together large sheets with lineage trees all mapped out from the different branches of Sant Mat, and also the paragraphs from Twitchell's books, and those from the older books of Sawan Singh's that were, with the exception of some creative names for Perfect Masters, identical.

He spoke glowingly of your work. But he very clearly established that the teachings and our personal experience with them were all that mattered.

And we discussed the various branches, though I hardly remember them now, except the review of Kirpal's work and the issue of the will, etc.

I found them personally uninteresting. If I needed a certified lineage to believe my Master that would be proof enough this wasn't for me.

The teachings had to stand on their own. And they have.

I don't know if that was Tommy's influence or my own proclivity at the time. Or remains so because of his encouragement.

I would prefer that you attribute these misunderstandings to my own poor memory.

I have no reputation to uphold in this matter.

You and I did meet at one point, though I'm not sure you recall that. It was at a Satsang in Ventura. I met both you and your wife. You gave Tommy a huge hug at the time.

It is a small world, but one easy to mis-remember.

It was Tom who encouraged me to get involved with Meditation research on physiological measures, which became my thesis.

And my lifelong interest, that developed into work with hospitals, and in particular Emergency medicine.

It's interesting how certain people have such a great influence upon us, or we upon them.

For me it has been mostly the former.

There probably have been so many influences that were important but which I do not recall.

Yours

Spence

[Spence Tepper]

Hi David
I just remembered a couple more details. I'm not sure they mean anything.

The lineage trees on taped together sheets were typed and hand drawn with parts in ink and others in pencil... And some white out. They were in process at the time.

Tommy proudly showed me a typed draft of your class paper comparing eckankar and Sawan Singhs works. I think you had asked Tommy to proof these. I don't think you had submitted it yet.

He was so proud of you, David!
Unsure of the details.

When we all met at the Sunday Satsang... (might have been Van Nuys) you gave him a huge hug and with praying hands bowed lightly with a smile and called him Guru Ji and laughed. Tommy told me later that while he loved you, he didn't like being called that.

"Some people just like to hug people." He exclaimed. I remember asking "Tommy, why did he call you Guru Ji?"
And he replied, "I don't know."

But I think there was love there, David, though I had only tangential connection to all that.

[Osho Robbins]

@Spence

writing to Arjuna.....

'if a guru is found to be a thief and has been found to be the mastermind of a multi-billion dollar fraud scheme, then they can't be a true guru representing God with any power to connect someone to God.'

'And therefore all claims of inner connection to this Guru, by others, must be pure imagination.'

The answer you have given Arjuna, although not very clear, basically seems to say that the path of shabd yoga is correct but you just need the correct master, which I surmise from your view of GSD would not be GSD.

That being the case, it still doesn't answer the question. How can so many people be having an inner experience of GSD when you are stating he is not a master.

Are you saying ppl can have inner experiences even though the master is a fake?

Or does the master have to be a real master for people to have inner darshan of his radiant form.

You previously told me that a master puts his radiant form in the disciple at the time of initiation.

So presumably GSD has the power to do that.

But then he got involved in, let's just say some shady business deal, so now what happens to all the radiant forms he placed with his disciples? Do they just suddenly disappear? What exactly are you saying? Does he, according to you, have the power to give inner darshan, or not?

Or is the shabd yoga path such that a master is not even needed?

[Osho Robbins]

@Spence

So how can a flawed teacher instruct in something pure?

Happens all the time. Mathematics is instruction, science is Instruction in principles that are pure. Understanding those principles we can apply them and have greater power over our lives.

Even if the professor is flawed.

This argument is seriously flawed.

A professor is simply a teacher of a class. His character is completely irrelevant. He can viably be a thief, a robber or whatever. He claims no divine powers.

A master on the other hand is supposed to be GIHF according to the teachings. Like I pointed out before, just read Johnson. He must be a perfect man. The is a prerequisite for a master, but irrelevant for a professor.

According to Johnson, a flawed master is not a master. So then how can you be having inner experiences?

That is Arjuna's question, which you have not answered.

By the way, was GSD a perfect master before the financial fiasco?

Did he fall from grace at a certain point? or are you saying he was never perfect?

in which case why did charan appoint him?

[Spence Tepper]

Hi Osho!
You asked
"How can so many people be having an inner experience of GSD when you are stating he is not a master.

" Are you saying ppl can have inner experiences even though the master is a fake?"

Where did I say he isn't a Master?
That is Arjuna conclusion. It's a very reasonable one.

I try to avoid those judgments.

As I wrote earlier, two Gurindars.

That's as far as I can say about it.

You said earlier you don't agree, so where is the issue? We have different views.

[Osho Robbins]

@Spence
This was my argument:

you:
It is the ones who love Gurindar who will place him in jail, if it comes to that. And Gurindar will say, "That's right. Good work."
me:
That doesn’t make any sense. First of all – it would have to be fraud case, and then it will have to be proven and he will have a defence lawyer. So there is no way he would every say “Good job” to anyone who puts him in jail.
This is just not how it works in real life.
If that was the case, he would do it himself.
It’s hardly a sign of love to put the person you love in jail!
What you are saying is, he deserves to go to jail, because he is guilty of fraud.
If you love him, you would not want to put him in jail.
In the story of jesus, Simon cut off the centurian’s ear, when they were taking him away.

You came back with
Hi Osho
You wrote
"This is just not how it works in real life."
Well, I'm glad someone knows this better than the rest of us.
So how does a perfect Master wind up as the mastermind of one of the largest fraud schemes anywhere in the world in modern times?

Firstly
You took one sentence out of context. That sentence was referring one specific thing:
That according to you, he would say “Good Job” to the people who put him in jail.
I was saying “that is not how it works in real life”
Unless a person wants to go to jail. I am sure GSD does not want to go to jail; as clearly if he did – that would be easy for him to arrange, without the help of others.
That is what I was referring to when I said “that’s not how it works in real life”
Anyway – put that aside for now.
You was initiated by Charan Singh, I presume?
So you follow the RSSB path, if that is the case.
He appointed GSD as the successor. You now consider GSD to be a fraud.
Well – let me ask you this:
Why did Charan appoint GSD as the successor then?
Obviously it questions Charan’s ability to appoint the correct person.
So are you saying Charan is not all knowing? As clearly he cannot be?
But according to RSSB teachings, the master is all knowing.
How do you personally reconcile all this?
Arjuna is clearly frustrated because you claim to know, but you beat about the bush when he asks you clear questions.
A few examples of the beating about the bush

Hi Arjuna
If an individual committs fraud who has otherwise led an exemplary life, is that possible?
Of course.
Can a perfect Master commit fraud?
Since I'm not perfect I can't judge that.

If a person lives an “exemplary life” – the very idea of fraud is not even going to enter his mind. So the correct answer would be “NO”, not “of course”
What does “exemplary life” mean to you? It means he thinks in a certain way – his thinking is pure and his life is a reflection of his thinking. So he would not suddenly commit fraud out of nowhere.
So the two don’t fit together. He can’t live an “exemplary life” and suddenly commit fraud.
And the answer to “Can a perfect master commit fraud is clearly NO, not “I can’t judge that!”
Can a perfect master commit murder? Rob people at gunpoint? Become a suicide bomber?
I am sure you would answer NO to those, even though you are not a perfect master!

Of course there is no anger at all. Only love.
But sometimes a friend or a parent must set the limits when our great friend has crossed a line and committed crime.

What are you talking about? You feel GSD has commited fraud and that means he has let a lot of people down, and you say he is a criminal and deserves to go to jail, but
“Hey, of course there is no anger, only love”
Spence, What drugs are you on?
No wonder Arjuna is confused!
Anyone reading this would be confused.

Why do you think he should go to jail, if you love him, especially if you consider him to be the successor of your master?
And one last question to top them all:
If you claim to have inner darshan, then why don’t you get the answers from the inner master, instead of all this confusion?

[Osho Robbins]

@Spence
This was my argument:

you:
It is the ones who love Gurindar who will place him in jail, if it comes to that. And Gurindar will say, "That's right. Good work."
me:
That doesn’t make any sense. First of all – it would have to be fraud case, and then it will have to be proven and he will have a defence lawyer. So there is no way he would every say “Good job” to anyone who puts him in jail.
This is just not how it works in real life.
If that was the case, he would do it himself.
It’s hardly a sign of love to put the person you love in jail!
What you are saying is, he deserves to go to jail, because he is guilty of fraud.
If you love him, you would not want to put him in jail.
In the story of jesus, Simon cut off the centurian’s ear, when they were taking him away.

You came back with
Hi Osho
You wrote
"This is just not how it works in real life."
Well, I'm glad someone knows this better than the rest of us.
So how does a perfect Master wind up as the mastermind of one of the largest fraud schemes anywhere in the world in modern times?

Firstly
You took one sentence out of context. That sentence was referring one specific thing:
That according to you, he would say “Good Job” to the people who put him in jail.
I was saying “that is not how it works in real life”
Unless a person wants to go to jail. I am sure GSD does not want to go to jail; as clearly if he did – that would be easy for him to arrange, without the help of others.
That is what I was referring to when I said “that’s not how it works in real life”
Anyway – put that aside for now.
You was initiated by Charan Singh, I presume?
So you follow the RSSB path, if that is the case.
He appointed GSD as the successor. You now consider GSD to be a fraud.
Well – let me ask you this:
Why did Charan appoint GSD as the successor then?
Obviously it questions Charan’s ability to appoint the correct person.
So are you saying Charan is not all knowing? As clearly he cannot be?
But according to RSSB teachings, the master is all knowing.
How do you personally reconcile all this?
Arjuna is clearly frustrated because you claim to know, but you beat about the bush when he asks you clear questions.
A few examples of the beating about the bush

Hi Arjuna
If an individual committs fraud who has otherwise led an exemplary life, is that possible?
Of course.
Can a perfect Master commit fraud?
Since I'm not perfect I can't judge that.

If a person lives an “exemplary life” – the very idea of fraud is not even going to enter his mind. So the correct answer would be “NO”, not “of course”
What does “exemplary life” mean to you? It means he thinks in a certain way – his thinking is pure and his life is a reflection of his thinking. So he would not suddenly commit fraud out of nowhere.
So the two don’t fit together. He can’t live an “exemplary life” and suddenly commit fraud.
And the answer to “Can a perfect master commit fraud is clearly NO, not “I can’t judge that!”
Can a perfect master commit murder? Rob people at gunpoint? Become a suicide bomber?
I am sure you would answer NO to those, even though you are not a perfect master!

Of course there is no anger at all. Only love.
But sometimes a friend or a parent must set the limits when our great friend has crossed a line and committed crime.

What are you talking about? You feel GSD has commited fraud and that means he has let a lot of people down, and you say he is a criminal and deserves to go to jail, but
“Hey, of course there is no anger, only love”
Spence, What drugs are you on?
No wonder Arjuna is confused!
Anyone reading this would be confused.

Why do you think he should go to jail, if you love him, especially if you consider him to be the successor of your master?
And one last question to top them all:
If you claim to have inner darshan, then why don’t you get the answers from the inner master, instead of all this confusion?

[One Initiated]

Dear Spence,
That's excess of rubbish and mind crafted stuff from you.

As I said earlier, you are seeing HIM inside and insulting outside.
You are declaring things as if you are above the Masters. And You are not!

Master doesn't need your suggestions or orders.

All of the above is the outcome of your mind, so essentially these are your opinions and have nothing to do with the procedures how Masters work. You don't know that. Because you are not a Master and don't try to be unless appointed by a Master.

[Osho Robbins]

Sorry - not sure why it's gone into all bold mode
I did but the closing bold code in - but not working
hopefully it will correct itself shortly

[Osho Robbins]

One initiated also points out that

it is incongruent that on the one hand you claim to have inner darshan
and on the other hand you consider the outer guru is a fraud.

These are they key points from my earlier posting (which went all bold by mistake)

Charan appointed GSD as the successor. You now consider GSD to be a fraud.
Well – let me ask you this:
Why did Charan appoint GSD as the successor then?
Obviously it questions Charan’s ability to appoint the correct person.
So are you saying Charan is not all knowing? As clearly he cannot be?
But according to RSSB teachings, the master is all knowing.
How do you personally reconcile all this?

What does “exemplary life” mean to you? It means he thinks in a certain way – his thinking is pure and his life is a reflection of his thinking. So he would not suddenly commit fraud out of nowhere.
So the two don’t fit together. He can’t live an “exemplary life” and suddenly commit fraud.
And the answer to “Can a perfect master commit fraud is clearly NO, not “I can’t judge that!”

Of course there is no anger at all. Only love.
But sometimes a friend or a parent must set the limits when our great friend has crossed a line and committed crime.

What are you talking about? You feel GSD has commited fraud and that means he has let a lot of people down, and you say he is a criminal and deserves to go to jail, but
“Hey, of course there is no anger, only love”
Spence, What drugs are you on?
No wonder Arjuna is confused!
Anyone reading this would be confused.

Why do you think he should go to jail, if you love him, especially if you consider him to be the successor of your master?
And one last question to top them all:
If you claim to have inner darshan, then why don’t you get the answers from the inner master, instead of all this confusion?

[Spence Tepper]

Hi Osho and One Initiated

Osho!
You asked
"How can so many people be having an inner experience of GSD when you are stating he is not a master.

" Are you saying ppl can have inner experiences even though the master is a fake?"

Where did I say he isn't a Master?
That is Arjuna's conclusion. It's a very reasonable one.

I try to avoid those judgments.

As I wrote earlier, two Gurindars.

That's as far as I can say about it.

And I shared a personal view also that I believe the highest Masters never take initiates or disciples. They don't step on the stage in the role of teacher or head of any philosophical organization.

They are actually here for the ones who were rejected, who don't fit in.

Those are the luckiest ones. They get the 1:1 attention.

You said earlier you don't agree, so where is the issue? We have different views.

Ditto in that, One Initiated.

You are both welcome to offer your own rationales for how a perfect spiritual master, or even just a very accomplished spiritual teacher can also mastermind more than a dozen shell companies with his wife as principle siphoning dozens of loans from corporations where he placed their key executives, in one of the greatest corporate robberies of this century.

[Osho Robbins]

This is where we come to the point about delusion.

Spence, you say you have inner darshan.

However, if this was actually true, you could ask the inner master all the questions you had and he would give you the correct answer.

But you can't.

So that points to the same thing I said earlier.

perhaps the "inner darshan" is self-created and delusion.

Because objectively, if it was true, the inner master would clear up all the confusion in a moment.

Why doesn't the inner master communicate to you and give you tne correct answers?

As clearly Arjuna wants answers and you claim to be in touch with the inner master, who has all the answers, but for some reason is not telling you.

Now I am confused. Please ask your inner master to help

[Spence Tepper]

Hi Osho!
You wrote
"Now I am confused. Please ask your inner master to help"

LOL
My crystal ball is in the shop.
You will just have to come with an answer that suits you.

Let me repeat the problem, because it is a huge and absolutely real problem, much more important than mine or anyone else's opinion :

How can a perfect spiritual master also mastermind more than a dozen shell companies with his wife as principle, (all with the same tiny storefront address) siphoning dozens of loans from corporations where he placed their key executives in one of the greatest corporate robberies of this century?

[One Initiated]

Because you may not know the biggest apocalypse of the century awaiting to hit the planet,
and the corrupt govts. and the corrupt nations can never help the Masters in the righteous way.

These are fake govts of the fake nations. These govts. are the biggest criminals and are respected for whatever they are doing. This is a disastrous world we are living in and soon the balance would be demanded.

I personally know numerous accounts where the wealth was differently managed by the Masters, beyond the perception of disciples, which later found to be used in a way which helped millions of human beings. that's not fraud.

Ideally none of these govts. deserves to receive such huge amount of taxes and then use it to create artilleries. There are numerous proven facts all over internet that many wars of this world were planned and crafted by some Super Power nations in order to sell their surplus artilleries and get cash rich and balance out their credits. I hope you understand where I am pointing to and which wars?

This ofcourse is not to motivate anything against the governments or tax authorities, one should abide by the law of the nation they are living in. Specially for the peace of mind of one own self than anything else - which would best help in the meditation.
However, think again, you still don't know how the Masters work.

If you think the laws and orders setup by the nations and their govts. are ethical and moral, there wouldn't be such disastrous gap between the rich and the poor.

[Spence Tepper]

Hi One Initiated

I understand your thinking. 'It's so bad everywhere else that these robberies are actually a good thing. '

'master isnt just evading tax laws, he is keeping money from being used by the govt for weapons that kill peoole...'

Is that in the ball park of your thinking?

[One Initiated]

No Spence,
You don't know what I am thinking.

I had posted a comment earlier subjecting to you and Arjuna, but I think that's in spams as it contains some Hindi literals. Strange parsing by typepad, I can correct in minutes if they allow.

And what this physical form of Babaji that you are objecting, has given me and taken me to.
And that HE does it in every single discourse that I attend.

And happened with much more intensity this last month November's Delhi's Satsang.

So yeah, you don't even know what a little and naive disciple like me thinking and going through, all your claims of being an all knowing not only about yourself but also about the Masters and their thinkings and their procedures, are false and mind crafted - basically just your own weird opinions... and has nothing to do with what the Master is doing and where and how HE is proceeding this further. You know nothing!

Just like you saw yourself, all you talked about David Lane - was pure simple fake stuff. You are embarrassed when David confronted you. You also tried hiding that embarrassment by labelling and welcoming the corrections.

You probably will be much more embarrassed and ashamed when Master will reveal more truths on you.

[One Initiated]

No Spence,
You don't know a bit what I am thinking and what I am going through.
The same physical form of Babaji, that you are objecting, is doing things beyond the comprehension of words.
You know nothing!

[s*]

How will Dera people see all this?
It must very confusing...

[One Initiated]

No Spence,
That's not at all my thinking.
(my comments are not getting published)

[Osho Robbins]

@Spence
Let let me quote from above

Osho!
You asked
"How can so many people be having an inner experience of GSD when you are stating he is not a master.
" Are you saying ppl can have inner experiences even though the master is a fake?"
Where did I say he isn't a Master?
That is Arjuna's conclusion. It's a very reasonable one.
I try to avoid those judgments.
As I wrote earlier, two Gurindars.
That's as far as I can say about it.

So firstly you are hiding behind Arjuna
Because HE said that GSD wasn’t a master, not you,
However, you agree it’s a reasonable conclusion, but you don’t want to say it. Why?
The reason you won’t say it is because
“You try to avoid judgements”
So instead you prefer to say, “there are two Gurindars”
Well that’s strange, when he speaks about ONENESS and now you say there are even two of him!
So now let me point out the obvious.
When you have written above

And then there is the businessman / guru in India who, together with RSSB board members he himself picked created a very detailed plan for fraud that could only be hidden by an unsustainable bull market. That individual, who remains silent and irresponsible, must be tried in a court of law

That is being judgemental, in case you missed it. You have passed judgement on a man who might be innocent, because a person is innocent until proven guilty beyond a reasonable doubt.
But you try not to be judgemental so you won’t commit the cardinal sin of stating he is not a master, however, you have clearly stated he is a fraudster.
You don’t seem to be doing too well for someone who tries not to be judgemental.
Just be judgemental, it’s okay. That is why you have a mind – to discriminate. You are already judgemental the moment you think the thought – all the remains is to voice it.
So when you refuse to voice it – it’s worse – you are now a hypocrite because you think one thing and say another.
So just say it.
Why do you need yo invent TWO gurindars?
The good one (inside) and the bad one outside.
Is this documented in RSSB books anywhere? Or your own theory?

[One Initiated]

Osho,
that's the absurdest theory by Mr. Hypo Spence.

Also please be noted that whatever he said about David lane was all fake stuff, and when confronted by David - to hide the embarrassment he is welcoming the corrections.

When Spence couldn't even know the reality of David, what do you think all the claims about the Master be of any relevance ?

[Osho Robbins]

@Spence
You wrote above:

And I shared a personal view also that I believe the highest Masters never take initiates or disciples. They don't step on the stage in the role of teacher or head of any philosophical organization.
They are actually here for the ones who were rejected, who don't fit in.
Those are the luckiest ones. They get the 1:1 attention.
You said earlier you don't agree, so where is the issue? We have different views.

When did I say I disagree?
The guru I went to doesn’t actually only works in small groups and doesn’t collect disciples. Everything he did was over a four day session and I never saw him again.
But he doesn’t have teachings – just his presence to shatter your concepts once and for all.
He is not a teacher.
But coming back to you:
Charan, then, according to you was also not the highest master because he did step on stage, albeit reluctantly at first.

You wrote
LOL
My crystal ball is in the shop.
You will just have to come with an answer that suits you.

Ah – taking a leaf from Gurinder’s book? He says that often – for a laugh.
But you are avoiding the question:

Spence, you say you have inner darshan.
However, if this was actually true, you could ask the inner master all the questions you had and he would give you the correct answer.
But you can't.
So that points to the same thing I said earlier.
perhaps the "inner darshan" is self-created and delusion.
Because objectively, if it was true, the inner master would clear up all the confusion in a moment.
Why doesn't the inner master communicate to you and give you tne correct answers?

You are the one claiming to have contact with the inner master (the good gurinder) – so why not ask him, why the outer gurinder is acting so badly?
Maybe he has an answer

[Osho Robbins]

@Spence

You feel GSD has committed fraud and that means he has let a lot of people down, and you say he is a criminal and deserves to go to jail, but

“Hey, of course there is no anger, only love”

Spence, What drugs are you on?

Clearly you have passed judgement despite "trying not to be judgmental"
And most likely you are angry because you feel he deserves jail time.

but then you say

“Hey, of course there is no anger, only love”

now this is clearly delusional.

if you love someone, that's not the way you think, unless its a strange sort of love.

[Osho Robbins]

spence
there are plenty of deluded people and those preachers who will encourage it and get rich

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7y1xJAVZxXg

[Arjuna]

@ Osho - I did not say Master was not Master - I was asking in a nutshell that if he wasn’t - we are fatherless for want of a better word and mediation wouldn’t lead anywhere.

I still believe He is .

Sorry for the confusion I was merely asking Spencer his thoughts

[Vinny]

It's time to revisit the research of David C Lane and his Chandian Effect. One can eulogize anyone including a crook or a criminal and you can see his radiant form also but those forms are just the projection of fractal mind getting energy from atomic field to make those forms. Still, seeing those forms is better than doing violence and plunder in the name of religion. That exactly is Sant Mat version DCL[ David C Lane], channeling the energy of mind away from cunning world and its inhabitants

[Jim Sutherland]

@Osho,......
The CIA should hire you to be an Interrogator in Gitmo in Cuba, as the indicted Traiters start being brought there for Trials by a Military Tribunal! ( Search “ Q drops by Qanon for latest developments)

But regarding Gurinder, it appears that David Lane was the real Prognosticator decades ago, when he wrote the Guru Has No Tuban.

But really, I doubt that VERY few Westeners, at least after Sawan Singh’s time, really believed that the Gurus were God Almighty. They, we, believed them to be more like a Medical Surgeon, or a Spiritual Surgeon, able to remove Spiritual Cancer or Terminal Maya Disease from those of us who were drawn to them for healing.

If a Medical Surgeon that has a Practice of surgically removing Tumors and Cancers, in India, for instance, got caught holding Billions of Dollars of “ Black Money” hid away that was intended to avoid paying Taxes on, lost most of it when PM Modi put the squeeze on Black Money, should he quit operating , or surgically removing tumors & Cancers from diseased dying patients?

Apply the same to Gurinder. No doubt, he is not God Almighty, but is God In Human Form,.....in the Capacity his Padt Karmas has allowed him to be. So, he has been caught up in negative dealings and the human conditions, so, now, should he quit practicing his Spiritual Role of removing Spiritual disease from Marked souls who have been drawn to him for Surgery?

I had my Appendix, Tonsels, and Gall Bladder surgically removed by gods in human form when they relieved me of what would have terminated me, had they refused to help me. No doubt, none of those Surgeons were perfect, as no Masters are perfect,

My take on Gurinder’s present “ situation” is, not a single Marked soul will be drawn to him that will ask him for Initiation. But those who ARE Marked fir him, Will go to him, get initiated, and if they practice the Meditation Technique Gurinder is still sharing, then they will be as successful of being connected to that ONE than you claim to be .

Do you think the thousands that are getting fed daily at the free Langar at the Dera care if Gurinder is God In Human Form or not? Do you think they will go to Burger King, McDonald's or KFC, if they read the discussions here, and decide Gurinder is guilty of financial fraud ? I don’t believe they will quit eating at the Dera Langar as long as there are free meals given there, no matter if Kal manifests as Satan in Human Form and feeds the hungry and gives Darshan in the Pope Mobile ride by.

Jim

[One Initiated]

Dear Arjuna, some of my comments didnt get posted. I subjected that to you and Spence.
In a nutshell, HE is the Lord and HE has revealed that. the only thing required is to eat the nut and leave the shell. Listen to your inner conscience and please listen to the Shabd - daily.

Dear Vinny,
it's time to spend dedicated 3 hours early in the morning to attend to our meditation daily without fail, the effects of that are marvellous and the side effect of that is the above non sense will not make a slightest impact.

[777]

""""Why did Charan appoint GSD as the successor then?
Obviously it questions Charan’s ability to appoint the correct person.
So are you saying Charan is not all knowing? As clearly he cannot be?""""

HE DID NOT. !
Sawan Singh appointed Gurinder

777

[777]

""". Why do you need yo invent TWO gurindars? """

Or 3 David Lanes.

Spence , just stop

777

[Spence Tepper]

Hi Osho, 777 and One Initiated:

It's just a matter of looking at the facts that have all ready come to light, and attempting to reconcile them.

You can't actually look in someone else's head to see their inner experience. That's just conjecture.

But you can evaluate the hard evidence of fraud:

$400 M of loans were proven to have been siphoned from corporations by the Singh Brothers directly to shell companies owned by Gurindar's wife. And Gurindar was involved in placing the singh brothers and the RSSB board head in key corporate positions that help responsibility for these loans.

There were additional monies lost also, but these were the loans made that were never repaid directly into the Dhillon family, and audited.

Some of these loans were created to cover the missing loan payments of earlier loans.

Several of the shell companies all gave the same small storefront address. All these companies had as their address a small store front and the principle or svp was listed as Gurindar's wife. That requires her signature.

Two auditing firms confirmed the above information.

The articles attempting to find out what happened note the relationship of the Dhillon family, and in particular Gurindar's own holding companies, to both Religare and Fortis in particular.

Brian can repost all the links to these articles.

And you are most welcome to review them.

Let me tell you what really weakens your attacks, and that is that you have no credible explanation to offer in substitution for the above information.

It is this information that has been most disturbing to me.

Yet none of you have anything else to offer. You are attacking me, but doing nothing to help round out the picture of proven and verified fraud painted in the press by multiple sources.

Whatever you think of Sant Mat 1, 2, 3, or 400, you have done nothing to help offer evidence/ explanation that would alter the hard facts of fraud.

And actually I wish you would work on that end, since that's the issue here.

That's why I stated earlier that we simply disagree on interpretation. But change the source factual evidence please. Find something that explains all this.

Then I can go back to my imaginary inner Master!! ;)

[Spence Tepper]

Hi David:

One more question. I'm curious to know when your initiation took place. What year? Was this while you were at CSUN? What was your age at the time?

Were you initiated by Dr. Roland DeVries, at his place in Pasadena?
Was Tommy there?

Tommy drove me there and back when I was initiated.

Thanks David. It helps me understand more, and more clearly, about my dear friend Tommy.

Yours

Spence

[One Initiated]

No one except yourself is attacking you Spence.

If you are thinking all these facts are pointing to something which is unethical and fraud,
you are doing so by keeping your trust more on the nations' laws than the Master.
Are you getting this point ?

And even if you are doing so, you are not doing that properly, because you are not waiting for the procedures of court of law to be completed and passing your judgement prematurely.
You've already given the sentence for the jail term to the master - that was disgusting to say the least.
You are neither a Judge in the court nor a lawyer.
Would you explain some bits on who do you think has given you that right to go to that extent and mention things as ugly as that ?
Is it not your boosted ego and a false sense being an all knowing which is making you write things like that ?

Do you know when you or me are going to die ? I am sure you don't !

You didn't even know that what you were saying about David was false.

And you are writing any malign stuff and claiming to be in the correct stature passing absurd statements towards the Current Master. That's truly all rubbish.

[Appreciative Reader]

Osho Robbins, it seems to me Spence might have a point.

It is possible to (continue to) love someone, even while clearly recognizing their culpability.

If some close friend of mine, whom I love, were to commit some kind of crime, then I hope I'd have the integrity to clearly denounce their wrong-doing, while at the same time not losing my love for them.

No, I see no contradiction there.

Just wanted to make this small, limited point -- without in any way weighing in on the rest of your discussion.

[Spencer Tepper]

Hi David!
I think my addendum response may have gotten lost in cyber space. Or at least this one...

I did remember a couple more details as I was thinking back to those days when we, (you, Tommy, Maria and I) were attending CSUN at the same time, though in in different programs.

Maybe you can help me clarify a couple of observations.

Tommy and Maria lived on the edge of the campus in an apartment.

The taped together sheets of the lineages were incomplete, with typing, pen ink, pencil and white out in various places. They were still in process at the time, and I had no idea why they were at Tommy and Maria's place.

Were you and he working on them? Why would he have drafts?

The draft of your paper was there with the source books from Twitchell and Sawan Singh. I'm not sure on this, but I think Tommy said you had asked him to proof it for you. Is there a reason he would have a draft?

Maybe to type it also? He had a very expensive IBM selectric with a type ball head.

The first time I saw you at the Satsang was actually in Van Nuys with your wife. You not only came up to Tommy and gave him a big bear hug, but you then put your hands together as if in reverence and bowed before Tommy. You called him Guru Ji and then laughed.

When Tommy, Maria and I drove back to the apartment building (I lived on the same floor) I mentioned that you really seemed to love him. He commented "Well some people like to hug."

I asked him why you had called him Guru Ji and he said, "I don't know."

Do you recall using that, humorously? Does it reflect the quality of your relationship then with Tommy?

Just strolling down memory lane, David ;)

[Arjuna]

@ One Initiated - I am so sorry I may have started all this.

Just want to believe that’s all - but the mind is powerful.

Good to hear from you 😀

[Spence Tepper]

Hi Arjuna!
You started nothing. You just raised the question of how do we reconcile these things.
That is a solid question.
The evidence has already been verified.
And I don't personally like the idea of saying I can't decide right from wrong in the light of overwhelming evidence. That sounds like cowardice and irresponsibility. Religion shouldn't do that to anyone. Victims shouldn't be denied their recognition and some recompense because "the priest could never have done that" ...etc...
Adults, given objective data, can make decisions for themselves.
That's what Baba Ji wants..So the Inner Baba Ji is telling me.
Even if this is the terrible way it has to be done.
Call me delusional. But please let's not ignore the facts. Let's not put all our power as human beings to decide right from wrong on such a well documented issue into the hands of a court.
It just reminds me too much of Nazi Germany "Of course no one knew that was happening!" BS.
It was denial.

[David Lane]

Dear Spencer,

I don't know if Brian really wants his blog for discussions of this sort, so out of respect for him why not write me personally and I will be most happy to reply to any of your questions. My email is [email protected]

Thanks,

Dave

[Arjuna]

@ all - I am sorry as I only want truth - I hope you forgive me if I have offended anyone on here and Spencer - I kinda get you and Osho and One intiated.

Just seeking the Lord that’s all folks

[Vinny]

Sufi Poetry again for solace in troubled times, with grammatical inputs
Mahvey tasbeeh tou sab hein magar idraak kahan
Zindagi khud hi ibadat hai magar hosh nahin

Mahvey [ verb: means absorbed] in tasbeeh [rosary] tou sab [everyone] without idraak [comprehension]. Zindagi [life] khud hi [itself] is ibadat [prayer] magar [but] hosh nahin [ people don't have awareness about depth of life]
Full translation: People are absorbed in devotion by rosaries but without comprehension about the depth of life itself. Life itself is prayer but they are doing prayers by empty rituals

[Jen]

Hi David and Spencer,

I do hope that Brian will allow for this discussion to continue. Hearing about the Dera and what it was like in the old days has been very interesting.
......

One Initiated, you say...

"Because you may not know the biggest apocalypse of the century awaiting to hit the planet"

Are these your thoughts or has Gurinder talked about this apocalypse scenario?

......

I watched and really enjoyed this youtube video yesterday:

Memorial for a remarkable Radha Soami Satsang Beas satsangi, Tom Curtis Published 10/5/16 (26:27)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B1dtVyAmRis

Thanks guys,

[Osho Robbins]

@Spence

And I don't personally like the idea of saying I can't decide right from wrong in the light of overwhelming evidence. That sounds like cowardice and irresponsibility. Religion shouldn't do that to anyone. Victims shouldn't be denied their recognition and some recompense because "the priest could never have done that" ...etc...

Just for clarity, which victims are we talking about in this case?

Adults, given objective data, can make decisions for themselves.
That's what Baba Ji wants..So the Inner Baba Ji is telling me.
Even if this is the terrible way it has to be done.
Call me delusional. But please let's not ignore the facts.

Yes, let's not ignore the facts and the facts are that right now it's trial by media

Nobody has been found guilty of anything so far - there has been no trial.

There may or may not be a trial, we don't know anything yet - but some people seem to
have decided he is already guilty. He has't had his say yet.

So it's a bit early for the inner master to be making any decisions yet.

I am not calling you delusional for no reason.

Does the inner master (the good one) that is within you and the one inside Jim and the one inside One-Initiated and all others - does all the inner masters agree with each other.

If they do - that's impressive - but I suspect they won't agree.

[777]

""$400 M of loans were proven to have been siphoned from corporations by the Singh ""

Our present SatGuru
did never higher financial studies ( and what happens even then > look around )

Sant Mat is famous for financial mis-adventures
Swami Ji to start bit Tulsi to make it clear and for What !

Yes I'm suggesting that BabaJi didn't know
That the cornered were ashamed
and helt things hidden
until so much to late
and such a situ is karma

They might not even be on speaking terms
( compare Socrates >< Xantippe OMG )

Baba Ji is perfect for giving Darshan
HE Himself doesn't understand how that works

I hope and pray to all preceding Masters
that they ordain God's Mauj as kind as possible
which is a stupid prayer
Que sera, sera

At least everybody is vegetarian and that is perfect - Wow

777

[Osho Robbins]

@Spence

you wrote

Let me tell you what really weakens your attacks, and that is that you have no credible explanation to offer in substitution for the above information.

It is this information that has been most disturbing to me.

Yet none of you have anything else to offer. You are attacking me, but doing nothing to help round out the picture of proven and verified fraud painted in the press by multiple sources.

What you fail to understand is that the person who may offer an alternative explanation is not even on trial as yet. However you seem to have found him guilty and also given him a jail sentence.

Are you really that excited about seeing him go to jail? and and the same time to claim to love him?

Instead of him, imagine it was someone close to you - your wife, son, brother, best friend for instance, would you want them to go to jail? or would you do your best to help them not go to jail.

I personally would not allow someone I love to go to jail if I can help it in any way - I would prefer to go to jail myself instead and I don't care what the law says.

As far as I am concerned. love is far greater than the law.

If I love someone - I would not wish any pain on them, even if they have done something wrong.

Isn't that what love is? in Christianity jesus takes the sin on himself for others - that is love.
Simon cuts of the centurian's ear.
If I was there I would have cut off far more than his ear.

if you claim to love Gurinder (the inner or outer) why would you want him to serve jail time?

Jesus said "Let he who has never sinned, cast the first stone"

I don't get how someone who follows him can want him in prison, especially someone who sees his inner form (the good gurinder). Surely the good Gurinder doesn't condemn the outer one? What happened to forgiveness?
Besides, at the moment, it's all based on one side and the defence have not put their side over.

[777]

"""I don't know if Brian really wants his blog for discussions of this sort, so out of respect for him why not write me personally """

Now that you attacked Spence in public
you must end this in public David
but you will NOT

You did the same to me inviting that way
far away from the audience, you first seek
when I confronted you clearly about Faqir Chand
and you even
asked me ( paraphrasing) "What Guru booklet did I write"
(. all on this blog )

before you said that , I took you somewhat for a reasonable decent person
although destructive by His Mauj

777

Thank U Spence for that movie and sorry for my "stop"

[Osho Robbins]

@777

HE DID NOT. !
Sawan Singh appointed Gurinder

please explain.
And if he did (in the inner planes), then that questions his decision too.

[777]

#Osho

If you are not knowing Charan's hand written testament
What are you discussing here ?

He mentioned that written THREE times
Sawan gave HIM the ORDER to appoint Gurinder
I'm sure HE did Simran while HE was communicated this ORDER
and we all benefit from that

777

So, don't beat a Holy Man Spance

[Tim Rimmer]

Hi Jen

Thanks for the link to the Youtube clip. Thanks to the makers of it. Cool tribute.

Great pics of Charan Singh with Tom Curtis - lovely stuff - brings memories and a few tears.

Best wishes

[David Christopher Lane]

Dear 777:

I didn't attack Spence. Rather, clearly pointed out that the information concerning me and my relationship with Tom Curtis was inaccurate.

You too are most free to write me, since I am not at all sure what you are referring to about Faqir Chand.

I apologize for not recognizing the context to which you refer.

Thanks

[Spence Tepper]

Hi 777
You wrote
"Now that you attacked Spence in public
you must end this in public David
but you will Not"

Woaw.
First, I made statements about David that were mistaken. They were wrong about key events in David's life surrounding my friend Tom Curtis and my memory. Tommy and David did know each other early in David and my college days at CSUN, and at the same time Tommy and I were friends. And Tommy encouraged everyone to get initiated and to do whatever study they could make around the path. That's how I started in Meditation research.

But as David pointed out he was already involved in his own research and knew about the path.

Because Tommy was always making friends with young men at CSUN and discussing the path, I presumed this was just another example of that, just as I was. And when Tommy lovingly showed me David's drafts of the lineages and the plagiarism in Ekankar, and the will and Kirpal, and a draft of David's paper, I just thought they were working together on this, just as we were working together on meditation research.

I had no intention to say anything sensitive or to invade David's privacy, and I'm ashamed to have inadvertently done so.

Tommy was very supportive of me, answering all questions, having me over for lunches and dinners, where his wife, Maria, made the most amazing raw food meals. We read the books together, we read the Bible out loud, we read Rumi, and Tennyson. We reviewed. quantum physics (I was a physics major with focus on subatomic surface physics at the time, but switched to experimental psychology.... Tommy had a huge role in that) and we reviewed current meditation research as well as the history of it. Tommy knew all about the Lenovla research center in India, current work with bio Feedback.. And CSUN had become a center for hard sciences research including physiological psychology.

Tommy helped me every step of the way with my thesis, which included three separate controlled bexperiments on different college campuses. And it was heaven on earth. I met him in my Russian class. He spoke fluent Russian. I saw him again in my swimming class. He was the fastest swimmer in the class (in his late fourties). He was in my Tennis class. One of the top players. Who was this guy? And yes I have miracle stories about Tommy.

Tommy was a great friend. helping me apply for meditation, vouching for me with the local Sangat secretary, and even going with me to the initiation ceremony at Dr. DeVries' beautiful zen temple like home in Pasadena. And he was there through my very spotty romantic life, always helping me put things into perspective.

But clearly I was mistaken about the actual events around that relationship between Tommy and David.

David also has a right to ask that his personal life remain so. And I honor that. So, please, that discussion is no longer public.

Let's not try to make firewood for our own comfort out of someone else's private life. That would be adding a more grievous mistake.

Golden rule. OK?

[777]

@Spence NO

Not at all

As David is a giant Saint & Guru Basher ,
: all bad about Gurus and soft compassionated men
perhaps women comes from him
Even brian's

He has a chance to show some regret
or not . . . . about and what further happens in
the sphere of compared religions and false drafts
plus its long term consequences

Few profs on earth flee the discussion as he does AGAIN

777

[777]

" apologize for not recognizing the context to which you refer. "

That must be age !

I will google in this blog our conversation

I don't want to write you privately

As Engligs is only my 5th language
I don't want to be covered under
a bunch of psycho- theological obscure expressions
but want
destroy your arguments in the open field
but you will not

777

[Jen]

Hi Spence,

Just a thought, maybe you might have met my brother, Errol Harding, who was initiated at the Dera by Charan. He was a tall skinny guy (seven years older than me) and his visit to India was in the mid 1960's. He was a "beatnik" and hitchhiked around the world when he was young.

When he came back from the Dera and told Mum and I about his experiences we both fell in love with the Path and were initiated by Sam Busa in Durban, South Africa. I do have wonderful memories of those days. I suppose its a sense of belonging to something spiritual and special.

[Spence Tepper]

Hi Jen
Sorry I don't recall Errol. He sounds like he was sharp and adventurous fellow.
Every age has its charm and wonder, and it's fun to learn about it.

He must have been very charismatic to describe the path in such terms that you and your mum (the establishment!) were both convinced.

It seems people back then were more amenable and adventurous, to believe in wonder, possibility and to take risks to try something new.

The pessimism of this age, the Atheism which has devolved into anti - theism, wants to take away hope "for our own good", does not want to allow for the larger mystery of life, and the magic of finding a path to a new place of wonder.

The wonderful science fiction and fantasy author Ursula LeGuin wrote in the early 1980's a great novel called "The Lathe of Heaven", about a future created by one young man's wish, through a machine built just for this purpose. He wished for all people to be equal.

But this lead to a place where everyone was the same height; one middle sex, both their skin and clothes were forever a drab grey, in short a disaster.

And no one there had any hope for becoming better. That was against the law. There were cameras in every room to assure no one thought themselves any better than anyone else, and talk or dream for any personal achievement was outlawed.

Sound familiar?

[Jim Sutherland]

@777, .....at least , we should give David Lane credit for not hiding from his Name, and he does invite any one to PM him,...unlike Trolls like AP does, and takes liberty to Troll Big Wheel personalities like David Lane, Osho, Brian Hines, Manjit, humping and peeing on their pant legs, looking for pats on the head, and petting , by asking silly questions that Puppie dog AP Troll imagines will impress readers , that he/she/it is a real High IQ Smarty Pants. Yet, hiding behind a false Mask, insulting me, and increasing the slander of accusing me of possibly calling my wife a Whore. Just to set THAT record straight, I have never, once, called my Wife a Whore, in the 57+ years we have been married. We, who are not ashamed to stand by what we write, as David Lane, I, and others who use our real Names do, also post our email Addresses inviting private communications or criticisms. You, 777, and Osho Robbins have linked your photos, so at least, I know you are Guys, and not Robot Trolls, as AP might be. Also, there have only been a few, very few, that have posted such Vitriol against me here, as AP has posted, in the 25 years or so years I have posted on David Lane’s site and here. One was Davd Lane’s Gate Keeper friend, Jules Alexander, and the other was David Lane’s Female Phycho “Lady”, Gloria Farman. But even they, had email addresses and Names, .......On David Lane’s RSS forum, I took a lot of heat because I supported the late Michael Martin , not as his follower, but as his Brother Charan Initiate. I took the heat, and suspect, AP might still be carrying over old rivalries from past encounters, but I really think AP has much more wrinkling his panties against me, than my bad spelling, typos, and the way I write. So, come out of hiding AP, and either contact me privately, or quit stalking me.
Jim Sutherland

[Jim Sutherland]

@Jen,...thanks got that Tom Curtis Video, i never knew him, as Spence and David Lane did, so can’t comment. The Video saddened me to see how youth turns in to old age, making us all look the same , once we turn 70. Not much difference . How can ONENESS Devotees worship the impermance of youth, when Life’s a Bitch, then we all die?
Tom Curtis seemed to be one of Charan's Core Desciples. Lucky he was.
Cheers,
Jim

[Jim Sutherland]

@Jen,......you mentioned Sam Busa. Tom Curtis reminded me of Sam. Do you know, or did you know, Stephen Fine, back in the New Zealand Sanghat?
Jim

[777]

@Jim
That was a lot of information
and names
héé. serious
someone (you) could make a spreadsheet
draft like a who=who satsangis early days
BTW
I' m still looking for the US Newsletter
July around 1976
I can precise later
where a lady tells about her inner adventures
meets Kal - sees MaharaJI on a throne
holding satsangis, each one at a kind of ray/ or rope
but also their non initiated family friends, . . .

Charan gave permission to write an account of it in the US Newsletter
perhaps you have them all
It's very touching
I hv the text in dutch

@Jen I missed yr brother, Errol , maybe not
but be were so fixed on MaharaJI
I think from 4 visits 2 were before Errol and 2 later

Very impressive at that time were
pakistani Jets , coming each night
to destruct the bridge
and they always missed
That went on weeks and weeks
and MaharaJI said not to worry and we didn't
Happy that the big tension is over

777

[Jim Sutherland]

@777, ....1976 was way before my time. I never came to the Spiritual Path until April, 1977 at age 35, and never was initiated in to Sant Mat until 1988, and By Charan, 6 years after completing my Semanary Th.D in 1984. So, I was accepted by Charan as Dr. James. R. Sutherland, B.Min., M.Min., Th.D.Its all on my Application and acceptance Documentation. Perhaps RSSB might have expected that I , as an American X Preacher Th.D, might recruit many Seekers to RSSB, as David Lane and Brian Hines were doing, at the time. And I DID, i.e., recruit many to RSSB! RSSB Literature always stated that no Advertising or Proselytizing was to be practiced, but we all did it. Once a Preacher, always a Preacher. Look at that Tom Curtis Video, Spencer Tepper admitting he was recruited, along with others, by Tommy Curtis, as others were also recrited by David Lane. So, the Wheel keeps turning. The Bible states in Proverbs that there is nothing new under the Sun. There are just many new recycled Sons!
Jim

[Jen]

Hi Jim,

We lived in NZ for five years, at first in Auckland for a short time and then moved to Havelock North. We did go to satsang in Auckland but I don't remember Stephen Fine. When we lived in Havelock North we used to hold satsang in our home, only a very few people, not many satsangis around in that area.

I think everyone loved Sam Busa, he was a very warm and sincere person. This is a short video (not very good quality) of Sam Busa chatting with Maharaj Ji, also Bob Atwell (Durban rep)... (3:02)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KolYnEoTln4

Gosh, I am enjoying this visit down memory lane, thanks Brian, hope you don't mind.

[Jim Sutherland]

@Jen,,,thanks for that Video. I had never seen that one before, in that Video, that is EXACTLY how Charan looked like, age, cloths and all, when he appeared to me, inside while in meditation. Plus, about half way thru that Video, he tapped a Guy on his shoulder, after the Guy said some thing to him. Well Charan tapped me on the shoulder the exact same way, on my right shoulder, after he said,...” just use less, Brother”, than vaporized! So, he may have used that friendly jesture with many Satsangis in the past, of tapping them on the shoulder, I don’t know, as I was only initisted by him 4 months before he left the body. So I never had a chance to spend any time in his physical presence, but I have always taken the Bible Verse on Faith, that,..,”the first shall be last,...while the last shall be first.” And receiving my $100,000 Physical Life Insurance Policy in the Mail signed by a Life insurance Agent’s hand written Signature,....Charan Singh,....... well that is the kind of Faith Building Synchronicity 777 keeps talking about!
Jim

[Jim Sutherland]

https://relationshipscience.com/person/charan-singh-4134636
Jim Sutherland has a $100,000 Life Insurence Policy singhed by Charan Singh that will coire Feb. 6, 2020. I never knew the Agent when I bought the Policy over the phone , until zinreceived it in the msil. I had just been initiated in to Sant Mat by Roland de Vries by Proxy for Charan Singh. Of course, these thing just happen every day, and are meaningless, to,.........Skeptics.
Jim Sutherland

[Jim Sutherland]

Expire on ! Not coire,
I received it in the mail

My autospel is not working. Sorry! When it does, it adds words I never wrote

Jim

[Jen]

@ Jim,

That experience with Charan appearing in meditation, lovely. Just watching him in these videos and thinking what a beautiful being!

You say "And receiving my $100,000 Physical Life Insurance Policy in the Mail signed by a Life insurance Agent’s hand written Signature,....Charan Singh,....... well that is the kind of Faith Building Synchronicity 777 keeps talking about!"

Wow, as synchronicity goes, thats really cool.