Great message from someone who doubts dogma about Gurinder Singh and RSSB

Getting an email like the one below makes me feel good about what I've been able to accomplish through this blog from its founding in 2004 to the present. 

Every person who comes to recognize the downside of religiosity -- whether this be in an Eastern or Western guise -- contributes to an upswing in the world's respect for truth. 

And truth-telling is in danger right now, as evidenced by TIME magazine choosing the 2018 Person of the Year to be journalists, guardians of the war on truth. But really, we all need to take on that job, guarding truth.

As you can read below, the young person who wrote to me about their doubts regarding Radha Soami Satsang Beas, an India-based religious organization headed by a guru, Gurinder Singh Dhillon, is standing tall for truth even though this means going against the grain of his religiously-minded family.

Hopefully this person's story will inspire others to break free of dogmatism and enjoy the wide open spaces of the truth about reality. Enjoy...

Gurinder Singh Dhillon

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Hi Brian,

First of all, I would like to thank you for your work on your blog and the diligent reporting of the flaws present in Radha Soami Satsang Beas. You are one of the few objective sources of information about it, free from dogma.

 

Your work exposing the flaws behind this path has helped me tremendously.

 

I was born into a satsangi family and raised to believe in Gurinder Singh as a perfect master. I found your blog at least a decade ago, when I was in my teens, and you helped me to discover the truth and learn things about Gurinder Singh and RSSB that no satsangi would tell me. Your work is so important because you discuss things few others are willing to on the internet and are a source of true information for me.

 

I also want to thank you for your reporting on the recent financial scandal involving Gurinder Singh and his family.

 

Despite having found your blog around 10 years ago (more or less) and neither believing in Gurinder Singh nor considering myself a Radha Soami for about as long, I had kept my personal doubts and beliefs a secret from my very satsangi parents. Because of their expectations, I still felt the need to go to satsang and attend official visits even though I did not believe in it at all.

 

I was quite afraid to communicate to them my true thoughts about it because they are so dogmatic and I didn't think they would understand my point of view. As a young person, the feeling of not being understood by my satsangi family was very much a deterrent to me and pushed me to just go through the motions of attending satsang to avoid their disapproval.

 

In recent years, I have been going through some things which has pushed me to live more authentically and to stop pretending things for the benefit of other people. Perhaps, this is a part of my natural growing up process. Therefore, I totally stopped going to satsang, including official visits, 2 years ago but always danced around the issue as to why when asked or pressured by my family.

 

When you reported the financial scandal, when I saw this being published in a reputable news source like Bloomberg, and when I read Sheena's book, I felt like I finally had enough information to explain my point of view to my parents with backed up arguments that are hard to refute. I felt that a lot of people would finally see the flaws present in the RSSB organisation as it is hard to reconcile the image of a perfect master with financial crime.

 

It was very naive of me to believe that the Bloomberg story would be the catalyst for truth I hoped it would be.

 

I did express my views out in the open to my parents and explained very clearly why I neither follow Gurinder Singh nor support RSSB or have any intention to get initiated at any point in the future. The point of this long-winded email is to report to you what the general mood seems to be among satsangis after the news broke, as told from my personal viewpoint and with my personal opinions attached.

 

My parents seemed to experience a lot of cognitive dissonance between their beliefs versus the news. Several things came up in my discussion with them:

1. They believe Gurinder Singh to be totally unaware of the financial goings on and the victim of someone else's shady behaviour. 
2. The above is reinforced by the fact that my uncle, who is a regional head and has spoken to Gurinder Singh personally, says that Gurinder Singh feels and has said that "they are all blaming me". 
3. Apparently my uncle had a "vision" of Charan Singh telling him not to believe what he reads.
4. Regarding the private plane and it being inappropriate for a spiritual leader to own one in the first place when the funds could be used towards charity, my parents think that "times were different" when Charan Singh was master and now that we are living in "modern" times we need a "modern" master who does not need to live as "simply" as previous ones. 
5. My father claims that the Bloomberg article was sponsored and written with an anti-RSSB agenda in mind.

You might think to yourself, okay this is just one person's parents and not representative of the general population of satsangis, but actually the sentiment seems to be shared among most within the satsangi community where I live. 

 

I have spoken to friends who do believe in Gurinder Singh and what I was told was that when the news first broke it was a very "hot topic" in satsang for a few weeks until it died down. My friend speaks for the younger group of sevadars and what I am told came out of those discussions is that:

1. People have concluded that Gurinder Singh is an innocent victim who was totally unaware of all that occurred (as stated above).
2. Sheena is motivated by hatred of Gurinder Singh as her reason for publishing her book (not true! I read her book and felt her to be very genuine and compelling). Regarding Sheena, one person said that Gurinder only made comments about her supposedly sleeping with many men to "diminish her karma". I don't really know how that would work and there are so many problems with this statement I don't know where to begin.
3. Many in the group said they don't really know what is true and what is not but they don't really believe Bloomberg is telling the truth as regards what went on nor believe that Gurinder Singh could knowingly do such a thing.

It seems to me that the cognitive dissonance between what people want to believe versus the reported news is leading many to choose to believe either that the Singh family is totally innocent or that their actions are justified in some ways than to confront the possibility that the person they believe in is not what they believed him to be. 

 

It is now December, months have passed, and no one talks about it anymore. My parents went to Beas as normal this month and are raving about their visit as usual. I feel like people have concluded that the scandal "cannot possibly be true" and everything just returned to business as usual.

 

I am quite disappointed that more people did not use this opportunity to reexamine the nature of the organisation they support. I know that cognitive dissonance is a very well known phenomenon so I should not be surprised but I think it is a wasted opportunity but from my part, I feel glad to have finally found the courage to state my beliefs, or rather non-beliefs, even if others don't believe me or support my decision. 

 

I credit you, in part, for helping me find the courage to do so through your extremely valuable work. Please keep it up, we need you to be the voice of sanity in a sea of dogma. This is an important thing for young people especially who have grown up only hearing dogma about RSSB rather than objective facts.

 

I just wanted to share with you my experience as many may be wondering how satsangis are reacting to and processing the news. If you want to publish my words please keep me anonymous.

 

Kind Regards,

Comments

[Arjuna]

& Brian - that’s what you call courage! Well done to this young person! I really feel for the youngsters who are guided and then subjected to other people dreams and opinions- so fair play to this young person!

I myself am on the fence but will topple in the way of truth- just one point from me: how could he have not known about what was going on??? He is supposed to be God!!!!
I don’t get people who would think that he wouldn’t have known- it’s time for closure for a lot of decent people on this -I think!!!

[Spence Tepper]

Brian
"Gurinder didn't know...."
Wow.
Just wow.

It wasn't just the Bloomberg article.
The Forbes article...
The India Times articles....
The Live mint article....
The Luthra and Luthra audits...

The Sale of the charitable hospital to Gurinder's own holding company...

"Gurinder didn't know....."

What are they teaching their children?

Maharaji said a true teacher doesn't do things his followers can't understand.

[Jasbir]

The issue is the one who is a spiritual seeker will actually understand the power of spiritual master. Now he behaves like a mirror what you act infront of mirror your will see your own reflection . When I first met My master Gurinder Singh ji I was totally shocked as I was searching God at the age of 8. I speak clearly on this blog . I saw many supernatural things through out my life. At the age of 17 i met my lovely Master the bonding he created happened when we both did Telepathy talks I guess the audience where around 10lakh and it just happened I was shocked how is that possible. Then from that day till now it happens. Today is 27 Dec 2018 tomorrow he will be in mumbai i am excited. Few internal experiance I can share that happened before Namdan he opened my internal ears I was able to hear that sound and went inside too. If Babaji wants to destroy this whole RSSB structure he will do that whenever I met him he always says this is the last if you guys don't Meditate. Now I personally never met him but whenever I go for his satsang I always have personal experience. I always check this blog and see many negativity but the truth is ask him from your heart to show who is he and he will you must be neutral or must have zero thoughts then only it works out ...Don't involve your mind or brain to have any negative questions before asking ...there is a technique involved in for asking as I told you he is a mirror image he will only reflect same image or mindset that you have because he is ultimately you... just go blank and sit in his satsang and from your heart just ask him he will reply you... out of 11lakh population in satsang only 11 will be that kind who will be able to do that... path is very tough i was super conscious before I met him I did know what's happening. I will tell all do what he says he will never guide anyone to go at wrong path.

[Dungeness]

I myself am on the fence but will topple in the way of truth- just one point from me: how could he have not known about what was going on??? He is supposed to be God!!!!

Hi Arjuna,

Just one other point and I'll keep it short since we're talkin' more
mysticism than unchurchy-stuff. if GIHF knows everything, which
issue should he tackle first: poverty? hunger? RSSB reputation?
what would his triage calculus be? The anti-theists would torch
a GIHF no matter what he did.

Fed the world? What other crises has he solved? Spotless rep?
Fine, why couldn't he prevent scandals in his own family :)
Super human? Well, why couldn't he just make his own cancer
go into remission? Compassionate? Why doesn't he take the world's
sufferin' instead of harping on meditation?

No, mystics live within karmic law. They're here to give spiritual
support to humanity. They get diseases themselves, endure
poverty, live within their karmic circumstances. They don't
immunize themselves from scandals either.

If someone feels compelled to respond to my comments, please
honor Brian's request and object/comment/excoriate, then do
so on the AtheistsNBelievers blog. Thanks.

[Arjuna]

@ 777 and Dungeness- hello and thank you both for you comments - people like me just want hope that is all. A glimmer of light at the end. I hope Gurinder reads this - as what people want is hope. Nothing else is of any consequence.

If you knew my story not that I am special in anyway - you would understand.

As Dungeness stated - let’s show Brian some respect and not continue. He deserves that from us all (respect that is ).

[Osho Robbins]

@Arjuna

how could he have not known about what was going on??? He is supposed to be God!!!!

The "all knowing" idea has always been ridiculous. Foe example, he could win every lottery.

Baba Kehar from Tarn Tarn - they have close links to RSSB, and Kehar's father used to be close to Charan Singh, sitting on stage next to him. One of his disciples who came with him from India, on his UK visit told me that "Kehar is all knowing" and said he had proof.

When probed further, this was his proof: On the USA tour, they had a flight booked and Kehar said to him the night before, "Cancel the flight as I am not getting on that plane"

He cancelled it and the plane crashed. I pointed out that is proved nothing. Kehar had not said it was going to crash. He only said he did not want to fly on it.

There is an account of Swami Ji going to the railway station to receive Jaimal singh and when he gets there - no jaimal.

The footnote in the RSSB book says "Swami went all the way there and came back - even though he KNEW jaimal would not come, as saints don't show their powers"

But that makes no sense. By not going to the station, he would not even be showing his powers, just not wasting his time.

Another account: Charan with Dr Schmitz on the UK trip. Both go to a restaurant and Dr Schmitz orders the food and goes to the "Gents". The food arrives in his absence and Charan is about to eat the rice, but waits till Dr Schmitz arrives. He asks him if these are some kind of veg in the rice.

Dr Schmitz said "No - that is egg - its egg fried rice"

If masters are all knowing - this can't happen.

All knowing" is a myth.
Just imagine the master knows everything.
How can you even ask a question?

You would just go to the mic and say "My question please. I wont waste your time saying it"

In the 80's we used to record satsangs of the speakers, and even started video recordings. Someone mentioned it to Charan singh and he put an immediate stop to it.

Point is: an all knowing person would know without being told

More likely: All the gurus are ordinary humans with no special powers.

Any special powers attributed to them come from the concepts of the disciples who WANT to believe their guru has special powers.

Lots of stories are created about their powers, so disciples believe.

An "enlightened" person on the other hand has no special powers and doesnt claim to have any.

Also - morality is a personal standard - not a fixed set of standards or rules.

good and bad are not absolutes

[Osho Robbins]

Dungeness:

If someone feels compelled to respond to my comments, please
honor Brian's request and object/comment/excoriate, then do
so on the AtheistsNBelievers blog. Thanks.

I think you have totally mis-understood Brians request.

When did he say "I dont want any discussions on here" ???

No.

What he stated, if I understood correctly is this:

that he doesnt want "long dogmatic religious quotes" that try to convert the reader

And that makes perfect sense.

He has nothing against reasoned argument on any topic.

Suddenly you and Spence seem to think he doesn't want any debate on here at all.

Either that - or you're just looking for any excuse to plug the athiest believer blog.

[Osho Robbins]

Dungeness:

the other thing that makes no sense is: if you believe this is against Brian's policy, why even comment on here in the first place?

Asking responses to go to the other blog is nonsense. that means you believe you have the right to write dogmatic comments, against Brian's policy, but others must not.

If the responses are off topic - so would your comment be.

You have mis-understood the whole notion of what Brian was saying.

There used to be long pointless comments on here - that added nothing to the argument - but just quotes from scriptures, or cryptic comments by 777.

THAT is what Brian was against - and its reasonable too.

Now you've gone to the other extreme - and are implying that no reasonable exchange should take place either.

I dont understand your logic

Not picking on you as a few others seem to have the same mis-conception too

[Osho Robbins]

@777

"There is so much more to say around the "Guru Quest" but on Brians request I do that
on the recently opened other blog"

You also seem to have the same mis-conception as I outlined above.

In fact that comment you made seems to be using reason. You specifically agree that masters are not all-knowing. You don't quote meaningless scriptures. I don't see why Brian would object.

He is all in favour of reasoned argument - as that is how we arrive a truth.

Brian can correct me if I am mistaken - but that is how I understood his request.

Certainly I can be mistaken too.

[Osho Robbins]

@Dungeness

you wrote
Just one other point and I'll keep it short since we're talkin' more mysticism than unchurchy-stuff. if GIHF knows everything, which issue should he tackle first: poverty? hunger? RSSB reputation?
what would his triage calculus be? The anti-theists would torch a GIHF no matter what he did.

Reasoned comments are welcome - as far as I understand.

If GIHF is all knowing and all powerful - he can tackle them all at once.
After all - you are saying he is all powerful.

To use the excuse that "they pretend to be normal humans" is dishonest.

I could say that.

I hereby announce to the world that I am all powerful and all knowing - but I refuse to show it.

Means nothing - as I am then asking for blind belief and you have already said that sant mat is
about your own experience not blind belief.

777 at least agrees that there is no such thing as "all knowing" and "all powerful"

If you admit that Gurinder is not all knowing and all powerful then the whole unfolding of the current scandal doesnt mean as much.

if you consider his the head of RSSB without any great powers - then he is just doing what any other businessman does.

Drop the high standard and it's not such a big deal.

The reason Spence, Jim, Dungeness etc fall - is because they first create an impossible standard.

Dungeness hasn't fallen yet - but give it time.

It's the high pedestal that is the issue

If he is just a guide as 777 now says - it's no big deal

[Osho Robbins]

@777
The remark about the sex relations : of course there is quite some karma involved
if that is good or bad is not @us to judge

I think you're talking about sheena.

Her point was: why make a public comment - and its not even true?

Its like you go to dera, and he says to you "how many times have you stolen things"

and you're not a thief!

That he is eradicating karma etc is an unfounded statement - a unreasonable belief. Using that logic you can justify any position.

[Osho Robbins]

@777
First , I'm going to do is
Carbon copying all my comments that Brian deleted
on the other blog

How crazy is that?

might get you banned even on the other blog, but - hey - give it a whirl.

I have nothing against you, but when a point is being argued, please give reasoned points - like you did above. cryptic comments dont help.

[Arjuna]

@ Osho - hello brother - just read your comments - will adjust and get back to you.

I want to discuss one thing which is very close to my heart - perhaps Brian would like to join in on this one - his input would be invaluable! The “Nocebo” effect (for those who don’t know what it is google it please).

Why would a Master say that to Sheena ??? The impact on her was and probably still is heavy and I ain’t talking karma!!!!

If he is not all knowing and someone genuine and innocent asks a question for which the master is not qualified to answer (on the basis he not all knowing) - it could have damaging consequences!

Consider the Karen Carpenter episode where she took someone’s opinion so seriously about her looking healthy and plump.

Nocebo effects are lethal - that is why I take everything and everyone with a humongous pinch - sorry bags of salt!

Discuss???

[Arjuna]

@ 777 - hello - I have not even had a dream about him so how on earth can I expect to see him within when I mediate.

All I do is try to be a good version of myself in what the world calls a good man!

That is all I can do.

[Dungeness]

Brian doesn't want "long dogmatic religious quotes" that try to convert the reader
And that makes perfect sense. He has nothing against reasoned argument on any topic.

Hi Osho,
.
My response was directed to Arjuna's specific point about GSD. I feel that,,
historically, discussions primarily about RSSB and especially GSD at this time
quickly devolve to polemics. "Long dogmatic religious quotes" are sure to
folllow. Chats about philosophy are one thing; "So and so is a phony guru",
"a venal scumbag", and "RSSB is a malicious cult".... quite another.

"Reasoned argument" has a way of quickly becoming murky and mushrooms
out of control. Ongoing entreaties seem to fall on deaf ears. I prophesy it will
happen again without a little proactivity on the side of caution. So I opt for
migrating these specific types of discussions to AnB.

the other thing that makes no sense is: if you believe this is against Brian's policy, why even comment on it?

I suppose we could comment "Wrong blog, Head on over to AnB for my
response". But it's more convenient to do this way until there's a known
cure for blog "schizophrenia".

[Arjuna]

Guys guys guys (a bit of light humour) in the immortal words of the master:

“Don’t analyse brother”

😀

[Jen]

Hey guys, I agree with Dungeness, Brian was very clear in his statement about what he does not want on this blog. These are Brian's exact words...

Religious crazies cause no more comments on this blog - December 10, 2018

I'm done with comments here on the Church of the Churchless. Comment moderation means more work for me.

But when I allow unfettered comments, the religious crazies who have chosen to abuse this blog as a forum for them to blab about their chosen form of dogmatism litter their comments with abandon -- paying no attention to my oft-repeated request to keep comments on-topic with the subject of a post, and to limit their religiosity to Open Threads where I've allowed complete free speech.

So I've decided to do two things: (1) turn off comments on new posts, and (2) moderate comments on existing posts, because it doesn't seem to be possible for me to not allow comments on old posts.

Now it's going to be easy to moderate comments, because I'm also turning off email notifications of new comments, so they won't be cluttering up my inbox.
 
Bottom line: I'm fed up with having this blog used to discuss Sant Mat and Radha Soami Satsang Beas dogmas, since this blog is called Church of the Churchless, not Church of the Churched. I've been exceedingly patient with comment abuse over the years, but my patience has run out.

You know who you are, religious crazies.

You have an astounding sense of entitlement and egocentricity. You've failed to appreciate the time and energy I've put into this blog over the past 14 years, instead using it to spew your fundamentalism, Eastern variety, in a daily flurry of comments.

I'd say "Good luck with finding another web site willing to embrace your religious nuttery," but that'd be a lie. I wish you no luck, except insofar as you follow the light of truth, reason, and demonstrable evidence toward reality rather than fantasy.

[Arjuna]

@ Jen - I would not call my self as a religious crazy - I didn’t even like to visit the tenents of the religion I belived in.

Read the first post I made - it was my attempt at saying what a courageous young person who wrote that letter to Brian was. That is all.

All the very best

[Jen]

Brian seems to be happy to post a message from someone who he agrees with and who also likes to speak negatively about RSSB and Gurinder. Why? Life is so short and yet we can't seem to live in harmony and allow others to have their own beliefs and pov. Why does it matter what other people believe in and what helps them through this crazy existence.

"Life is 10% what happens to you and 90% how you react to it."

[Brian Hines]

Jen, I've gone back to moderating comments because the religious crazies were once again using my blog as a Sant Mat/RSSB message board, and posting wildly off-topic comments.

This post was about someone who wrote about having doubts about Gurinder Singh and RSSB, and having to deal with religious family members who believe otherwise. So comments should be about that, not about how wonderful the guru and RSSB are.

Read the post that is once again pinned to the top of this blog. No preaching. This is a blog for churchless people, not the churched. If you're religious, read the posts, but don't try to post religious comments, because they won't be published.

[Spence Tepper]

It's very clear how readily the conversation can devolve. It's a pattern.

First, comments are made about a specific religion, usually derogatory, usually Sant Mat. This constitutes an attack upon the perfection of that religion.

Second, people in that religion respond defensively. And they refer to their religious subjective experience as evidence in the defense.

Brian responds with surprise "This is an Atheist blog!" and he gets angry when the defense described above overflows into sermon. And the anger is defended on the basis that no physical objective scientific evidence is presented in the defense.

When this settles down, Brian posts another anti-rssb blog and the process repeats.

I think some candor might help.

This Church is primarily here to lend support to folks who are questioning their formal religion, or who wish to share their disagreements with their religion, or with Sant Mat. Or share their painful experiences within their religious organization.

Evidence in the form of narrative testimony pointing to emotional abuse and popular articles describing incidents of fraud and avarice are also provided from time to time, including exposes detailing financial misconduct, with several sources of evidence.

I don't believe this is to become a debate pitting religious experience against evidence of fraud. That is actually, off topic, if I understand correctly.

Anyone who finds comfort in this information is welcome. That's why it's here. To establish that there really is something very wrong with organized religion, including Sant Mat. Such evidence proves how formal religions place unlimited power without accountability in the hands of a few leaders. And this power is inevitably abused by those leaders.

But even more horrifying is how the followers leap to their defense. That corruption of the entire sangat is far more horrifying than the acts of avarice and greed of the leaders. And it is on full display in the defensive sermons religious devoteees leave here. Hence the label "religous crazies".

Anyone offended by is most certainly welcome to air their views at Atheist and Believer since honoring personal subjective experience is one of the major reasons for Atheist and Believer... To give comfort to all those who find themselves isolated by their unique personal experience, either spiritual, religious or atheist.

Because the purpose of Atheist and Believer isn't actually debate. It's learning.

But actually that is also true of Church of the Churchless.

It's not about arguing whether crime or emotional abuse has been committed, or whether our personal experiences are real for us. It is digesting the facts individually, with honesty, of these truths.

[Jen]

Hi guys,

I'm not at all religious and no longer a satsangi, so why am I reacting? Maybe its about self righteous indignation in myself and others and maybe its not. I think when I observe myself that I always seem to defend the person being criticised, even Gurinder! What the heck, I even feel sorry for him! So its just my unique understanding of humans, we are all vulnerable beings, even the so called guru. I do actually feel sorry for his burden. I'm not arguing, just simply voicing my opinion and I know that it takes a long time to give up one's expectations about a spiritual path, I've been there done that.

I wish lots of luck to the person who sent Brian the message, once you've been through this uncertainty and find yourself you won't need to believe in anything or anyone, it will just be a soul journey experiencing life and I hope you find acceptance and peace.

Brian, its good that you are once again monitoring the comments and I thank you for your patience and I still always read your blog every morning to see whats happening in the world of exers and satsangis. This blog has had a huge influence on my 'waking up' journey :)

[Vinny]

Intellectual dishonesty is very rampant in hindus, sikhs and moslems. That is the reason they have reduced these third world countries to lynch, rape and terrorist countries. If anyone was yearning to follow the footsteps of Baba Jaimal Singh who did not marry, why he would marry and beget children and then become preachy. These are bastard communities who are using the inventions of Christian Innovators without paying a dime. These bastards would never understand the secrets of atomic energy present in universe and how some innovators convert it into electricity

[Arjuna]

@ Vinny - a bit rich of soap box talk from you!

Every race has issues - not wasting my time on you but there are Hindus, Moslems and Sikhs who are the salt of the earth as are Christians.

You are very offensive pal!!!!!!!!!!!!

[s*]

This blog and also ''radhasoamistudies'' former from David lane)''has helped me a lot to discover and loosen up about the Santmat path.
It really helped and helps.

[Osho Robbins]

@vinny
You sound like a nutcase.
your comments don't contribute anything useful.

If you have something useful please state it.

"cunning, bastards, etc" are meaningless terms.

[Osho Robbins]

Sheena is motivated by hatred of Gurinder Singh as her reason for publishing her book

There is one very clear reason why this cannot be the case.

She does not even mention his name.

The book is specifically about her journey.

No mention is made of who "guruji" actually is, or the ashram.

If she wanted revenge - there would have been many better ways than publishing an anonymous titled book that doesn't even mention the guru

[Spence Tepper]

Hi Osho
"Cunning Bastards" is a great phrase. It has nearly endless applications. My Grandfather, when he would get angry, would say to the TV "those sons of bitches!" To which my grandmother, more delicately, would exclaim in support, "Those dirty dogs!"

There is a certain humanity in this, or perhaps tribalism, perhaps a powerless cry for justice from the underdogs being trampled underfoot.

I don't mind when a mouse squeals as it is being crushed by a thoughtless boot, or chased by a determined cat.

It is the mouse's due.

[Osho Robbins]

Spence:
"Cunning Bastards" is a great phrase.

You've excelled vinny

[777]

@Jasbir
"" out of 11lakh population in satsang only 11 will be that kind who will be able to do that... path is very tough i was super conscious before I met him I did know what's happening. I will tell all do what he says he will never guide anyone to go at wrong path.

Posted by: Jasbir | December 26, 2018 at 09:04 PM. """

So nice to read and that nothing changed since Charan
Amazed that the owner /inquisitor did not delete you

Curious if this will survive
Imagine he was in politics , . . . OMG

777

[Arjuna]

@ Osho - hello brother - I agree with you that man (who used the term cunning bastards) is out of order! I’d rather not use his name as that would give him credence as someone whose opinion I value!!!!!

@ Spencer - you surprise me ! Your opinions and views are like a pendulum- saying how I see it brother!

And more surprised that people have wrote to tell him off - to keep things civil on here!

[Osho Robbins]

@spence
you wrote
"Cunning Bastards" is a great phrase. It has nearly endless applications. My Grandfather, when he would get angry, would say to the TV "those sons of bitches!" To which my grandmother, more delicately, would exclaim in support, "Those dirty dogs!"

There is a certain humanity in this, or perhaps tribalism, perhaps a powerless cry for justice from the underdogs being trampled underfoot.

A great phrase? Looks like your grandparents had some issues.
This is the kind of pointless comment you are better off migrating to your own blog

[Arjuna]

@ Osho - wow bro - say it how it is- won’t you!

I’m ex military I don’t get many people who would say that kind of stuff to my face looool.

Not that I use my physique to intimidate - more of a gentle giant when people get to know me.

Respect

[meditator]

If a few as Jasbir confirm to have supernatural connections with Babaji, mostly without consistent efforts but due to a still - selfless mind then perhaps all these talks/comments via blog series may lead us nowhere. In fact the very facts you have seen - observed -- concluded become fake about Babaji in the light of these. you may not believe these supernatural personal adventures related to by a few among us. You may also link these with scientific principles to claim your versions to be true. But the believers of RSSB will never step aside off the path distrusting him because even one disciple (his special experiences) is sufficient to wipe off all the dust off him. It may as well be true that the facts as seen or observed or concluded by a few who had been very very close to him are real for sure but the fear is of death which seems conquered in this path and which has been claimed to be conquered by many among us in the past, in the present as is being spoken off in blogs by a few of us and will be in future. A trust therefore remains despite the assertions in the opposite direction.

[Dev]

Hi everyone! I have been following this blog for over a year now. The thing is "What is the way out of this dilemma?"
"Who can we ask the truth?"
"May we get the right answer?"
"What......till I get my answer?"
And the biggest "What if the answer is not what I expected?"

[Osho Robbins]

Hi Dev

You ask "What is the way out of this dilemma?"

It depends on exactly what you dilemma is. Can you define what the dilemma is?
clear thinking is the first step.

"Who can we ask the truth?"
"May we get the right answer?"

"Truth" has many meanings in this context.
What exactly are you seeking? the truth about what?

Are you talking specifically about the financial matters?
Or are you talking about "Spiritual Truth"

Regarding the former - the financial matters - nobody knows. There is no legal action as far as I know as yet - and it's really a matter for the legal system to handle in their own way.

There is no "right" or "wrong" here. If there is no legal action, which is quite likely, then there is nothing to know the truth about.

This was a financial transaction between companies. If there is anything of concern - the companies concerned or the shareholders will take whatever action they consider appropriate,
which may well be no action.

Not sure what you mean by the "right answer" if there is any such thing.
subject to interpretation. What is "right" in this context?

"What......till I get my answer?"
And the biggest "What if the answer is not what I expected?"

Is your life "on hold"? You just carry on as normal.
Whats changed, except a perception in your mind?

What if none of this had come to light? then you would just carry on as normal, right?

The answer cannot be what you expect.

If you seek the expected answer - then you don't seek an answer.

What exactly is your concern?

can you put it into precise words?

[Meditator]

@Osho Robbins.

A very Good Morning, Sir.

Whats changed, except a perception in your mind.

It is not all about a trivial matter of our lives that has been discussed here for quite long now. You may ask the ones who are on this path, if you are not. Our lives are conditioned by the teachings enshrined in the path with an assurance or even an insurance of our souls to be safe eternally if we can carry forward like a child honestly & sincerely on the path. So far we have been unable to find a convincing answer, in fact clear evidence to supporting allegations. It is only the conclusions which are left to be drawn by the onlookers and which they according to their own bias preset towards or against the path as of then

[Osho Robbins]

@ Meditator

Whats changed, except a perception in your mind.

That is ALL that has changed.

Like I said - if this had not all come to light - everyone would carry on just like before.

The financial dealings have been going on for many years - why wasn't anyone concerned before?

Brian even had articles on this site about what he considered inappropriate for a guru. His view was that a guru should not use his position as a guru to gain an advantage in business.

Nobody seemed concerned at the time.

The same people who are concerned now seemed totally unconcerned at that time.

All perceptions.

You say:
It is not all about a trivial matter of our lives that has been discussed here for quite long now. You may ask the ones who are on this path, if you are not. Our lives are conditioned by the teachings enshrined in the path with an assurance or even an insurance of our souls to be safe eternally if we can carry forward like a child honestly & sincerely on the path.

This is the whole issue. That is what guru Gurinder is trying hard to free you from.

He says it is so many ways - but nobody listens - until now.

1. The guru is not coming at your death - because there is no duaity

2. There is no Sach Khand. So where exactly are all these souls supposed to go? Where is the safe haven where they will live forever in bliss?

3. It is all about realizing the ONE - nothing else.

4. The guru is just a human being like you - not perfect

If anyone listened to what he is saying - they would not be in a crisis.

All this is no big deal once you stop expecting him to be perfect, and if you chop the legs of the pedestal, which is he constantly asking you to do.

He has never advocated blind belief.

I have personally heard him say "I could easily say - don't worry - everything will be taken care of - but that i giving you false hope."

So far we have been unable to find a convincing answer, in fact clear evidence to supporting allegations. It is only the conclusions which are left to be drawn by the onlookers and which they according to their own bias preset towards or against the path as of then

You expected unconditional love from him, and say "I love you Master"

The slightest hint that he might not be perfect and might have done something somewhot dishonest - and you all run for the exit.

Talk about double standards.

Who is not dishonest anyways? Can you point to anyone?

And you expect the "perfect master" to be "perfect".

There is no such thing as "perfection"

He is an ordinary human being.

Someone asked Osho "Who are you?"

his reply:

"I am a man - just like you - no Christ - no Messiah"

Gurinder has never claimed to be anything more.

Neither, for that matter has Charan.

Some people have said "But the books say it"

That's baggage from the past. The teachings WERE different back then.

Sawan was asked if hell was literal - he said YES

Ask Gurinder - he will say NO!

He has said to me in very clear words that the stories are just made up: Kal standing on one leg etc.

And this was not in a private interview - but in front of 5000 + people

[s*]

It's very clear what you say Osho Robbins!
I still love Gurinder..just because..I do not know.
I was also angry with him and also with Maharaji Charan Singh.
There were things I could not understand in the Sangat and also..
Very important..
The Pangs of Separation'' which ws terrible for me.
I loved my master so young so much,I thought I could not live without him etc..

Now I see it was a sort of mindgame.He was in my feeling a Father but then Godly father.
Dera was soo fantastic for this youngster after 3 months..back home was terrible.
I could not ear nor speak..imagine how others saw me..:(
So that is one of the things I have been angry about the difference Dera and Home was too much..
Oh well this is my personal story.
There was also a lot very good.
I learned Love from my Guru..Maharaji was always talking about that..
Soo that is why..

[s*]

Afterall the Love and the teachings about'' Circel of Transmigration..''
That is strange..the way what was talked about that circel..the dangers slipp downs etc..
That was not a very loving idea.

So love ..and fear..and also because of that dependence on the Master..ppfff
Not good.
imo ime.In my opinion and in my experience.

[s*]

Hi Osho,
What I do not understand is..
If Baba Gurinder I so different now in his approuch about the teachings..
Why is the Initiation exactely the same as before.
Radiant form in 3th eye.
The regions..
Transmigration.
From now the Guru is guiding you.
That is strange and very contradictionary.

[Osho Robbins]

@ s*

Just imagine….
You are the head of RSSB
And you figure out one thing.
(I’ll tell you in a separate comment what that ONE thing is)
From that one thing, all the following becomes OBVIOUS.
I mean so obvious, that it’s laughable.
1. That there CANNOT POSSIBLY be any regions, lords, kal, devil, Sat purush, soul, oversoul, god, etc etc etc.
2. There is NO SEPARATE SELF (Soul)
3. Any of the above that any person experiences is 100% definitely their IMAGINATION
4. There IS however, and VERY CLEARLY, the ILLUSION of a separate self. There appears to be a ME here inside somewhere (but it cannot be pinpointed)

The following conclusions can be made from the above:
If there is no separate self, then clearly, nobody can come to “collect” that non-soul, and there would be nowhere to take it.
There can be no “inner master” and no “inner journey”
There CAN and WILL be an IMAGINARY inner master and an IMAGINARY inner journey.

So – that’s the foundation laid.

So now: as the head of RSSB, you have inherited a lot of nonsense, and you know it.
What in heaven’s name will you do with it all?
You have TWO choices:
(1) You just come straight out and say it as it is.
(2) You slowly, but surely create doubt
If you do the former, people are going to think you have “lost it.”
The “it” here refers to your “marbles” (your sanity).
In the second case, they are going to be confused.

Which would you choose?
You want to be known as a madman? Or accused of confusing the sangat?
One more point. If you choose the former, you are also discrediting all your predecessors.
Just as a sidebar, this was the choice facing Faqir chand. He also had to discredit all his predecessors by coming out with his ideas as he chose the former.

So, GSD has chosen the latter. I would probably make the same choice too.

[Osho Robbins]

@ s*
The ONE thing
First a quote
“Paltu ikkoi ikk har Dusar nahin koi”
Paltu there is only the ONE – there IS no other.
Hindu scriptures also say the same thing.
There are just two states:
1. God is called the ONE
2. We are in DUALITY.
So let’s define each of them:
Duality is our everyday experience.
Everything here is in TIME and SPACE. We call this reality.
Things MOVE (requires TIME and SPACE). All movement needs both time and space.
Things CHANGE over time. So naturally they END.

The ONE
This is not a THING. So let’s be clear, I am not saying it is a real thing. I am not even saying it exists. I cannot say anything that makes any sense, about it.
Which is the same as saying I am talking nonsense.
I concede the point. I AM talking nonsense – or non-sense.
It is necessary. Because anything I say about that which is outside of time and space will be non-sense.
So now that we have cleared up that point – put it aside for a moment and go beyond it.
I have already conceded that it’s nonsense – so that’s no longer subject to debate.
Now let’s examine the non-sense a little more closely.
The ONE means: no TIME and no SPACE.
No separate entity can possibly exist.
So that is the realm of the true self and there can only be ONE.
Naturally it will never DIE or END – for the simple reason that nothing happens. No change.
It also doesn’t move, talk, love, hate, command, judge, take birth, die, write scriptures, etc etc etc.

So each of the two states have different attributes.
1. Duality: movement, change, deteriorates over time, born, dies, good/bad.
2. ONE: no movement, never dies or ends, was never born. Remains the same forever
Put aside the question of existence, because existence itself is an attribute within duality.
So “Does the ONE exist” cannot be answered.
So now: lets move on:
If someone SEES a god, vision, master, region, etc what can you conclude about it?
(a) It HAS to be within duality (because ONENESS cannot be seen)
(b) It will end (as everything in duality ends)
Therefore ALL visions, all inner experiences etc are part of duality.
Now let’s define REAL
You have a nightmare, you wake up in a sweat. Then you say “Thank God it was just a dream”
It appeared real, until you woke up.
Why was the dream “unreal?”
Because it ended. Anything that ends is unreal. Here today gone tomorrow.
So real means that which never ends – that is the ONE category above.
So everything you see ends and is unreal in the sense that it ends.
Only the ONE is real because it never ends

On that basis, visions, regions etc are unreal.

[Dev]

Hi Osho! Thanks for your reply. And I m sorry about not being clear in my question.....
I meant to ask whether the path of sant mat I m (well not just me but millions of others too) following is true and what if the answer was not what I have expected.....I think the dilemma is the result of the old Dera literature that I have read....may be.....I don't know

[Mr. Curious]

Osho, if Gurindar claims to be just a regular ol' human being, why is he giving discourses on a stage/dais about spirituality? What are his credentials? Has he himself "realized the one," whatever that means?

If he really believes himself to be a regular human being, he should step down and stop this dishonest charade.

Like any con man, he says whatever aligns best with the sensibility of a given audience...in the West he talks about the One, in the East he reverts back to duality teachings, etc. Whatever keeps his audience mesmerized, confused and dependent.

Also, re: the old "masters", what about all those Sawan/Kirpal stories where they claimed to take people on tours of heaven and hell, etc.? If there is no literal heaven/hell, were they simply lying?

What a con job all this is...

[Arjuna]

@ Osho - hello brother!

There is Kal! He is real. Well according to the same master you quote above.

I myself have heard him say the “Kal is the lords greatest disciple” and he still goes to see the Big Man upstairs”

So Master does come at death and there is no such thing as Onesness as we are on a journey to it.

Simples hey. It’s that simple - all sorted now hey?????

Best not to take anyone too seriously on this rock hurtling through space 😀

[Osho Robbins]

@Mr Curious
Osho, if Gurindar claims to be just a regular ol' human being, why is he giving discourses on a stage/dais about spirituality? What are his credentials? Has he himself "realized the one," whatever that means?

Giving discourses on stage is not the criteria. I have done that also. So has Brian. So have lots of speakers. That in itself means nothing.
Have you ever heard him making a claim that he is a Christ, a messiah, a saviour?
I haven’t
He also doesn’t claim any credentials, except that he was appointed by Charan Singh.

You say
If he really believes himself to be a regular human being, he should step down and stop this dishonest charade.

What is that going to achieve? He is doing what he considers best. When you are appointed – you can do what you consider best.
To just walk away, when he is appointed the successor is also irresponsible.

Like any con man, he says whatever aligns best with the sensibility of a given audience...in the West he talks about the One, in the East he reverts back to duality teachings, etc. Whatever keeps his audience mesmerized, confused and dependent.

Not true. He does not talk just about the ONE in the west. It’s just if someone brings up the topic, then he talks about it. Otherwise, he doesn’t. Perhaps if someone brings up the topic in the east he will reply the same way. It is just that he tends to do satsangs rather than Q&A in India.
So what you say is not actually true. You’ve been spending too much time reading this blog.

Also, re: the old "masters", what about all those Sawan/Kirpal stories where they claimed to take people on tours of heaven and hell, etc.? If there is no literal heaven/hell, were they simply lying?

Not sure which stories there are about tours of heaven / hell.
But there are stories of disciples seeing the master inside and getting guided. I already explained what that is. It is the mind, because all visions are part of duality. So those are all mind-creations.

[s*]

@Osho
Thank you very much for your nice answer!
I can see what you mean and that clears things up for me.
You know..I already was seeing the untruths..for a longer time,but could not talk about things in the sangat..as you understand..
But the youngster in me was still upset about the pains She (I) had gone trough.
I was a very very very much “ devoted” soul so when you live in a Western country..
Maharaji has stayed in our house in the west for 4 days with me and my parents.
It made me feel special sort of..also..and that helped me trough life.
So in a way that was good for me.

Everyone has his /her story.
It was difficult to deal with love devotion/attachment to master and the not good things I felt and saw.
So it is painfull to come loose and it goes with ups and downs.
I am happy with your answers.
I also feel about what M.Curious says..
But it is up to Babaji and I hope that everything will go smoothly and alright.
I wish lots of love for everyone..
Thank you,
s*

[Arjuna]

@ Osho - ok I will go with you for the “mind creation” for a minute.

Now then - so what is the mind? And if it creates all this no nonsense - what created the mind and does that also tell the mind what to think.

Now what I need really is a full description of the mind not what it does ????

[Osho Robbins]

@Arjuna

you wrote:

Osho - ok I will go with you for the “mind creation” for a minute.

Now then - so what is the mind? And if it creates all this no nonsense - what created the mind and does that also tell the mind what to think.

Now what I need really is a full description of the mind not what it does ????

Read Faqir Chand - the Unknowing sage.

You are already familiar with the mind. It creates the dreams you have each night.

Such creativity in dreams - yet there is no author - nobody did it all - except your mind

it is the same mind and the same process that creates the inner experiences.

Also - check out "astral Projection"
Our friend Manjit does it quite a bit - conscious astral projection.

and he also knows it is all self created by the mind.

[Tim Rimmer]

Hey Osho

I consider your response to s* in regard to what you think is the tack being taken by the current head of RSSB as good an explanation as any. As you say, adopting choice 2 of course will continue to cause confusion amongst the freer thinking followers - possibly a good thing.
Interestingly I was talking to an old friend the other day who recently visited the Dera - things are ticking along as per usual. While the ongoing issues regarding monies are acknowledged, they appear to be downplayed - as far as I can gather.
I’m also mostly on the same page with your interpretations of RSSB teachings and ‘Oneness’ .
How can the self be a separated entity when it seems clear it doesn’t even exist! - given my own experience as well as all the various teachings and scientific info now available (often discussed on this blog). However, I remain of the view that while this ‘self’ is essentially a mental construct, the ‘soul’ is another kettle of fish. Perhaps the issue lies with the word soul itself, as well as it’s long history of use. To me it has connotations suggestions something that can both stand alone and represent ‘essence’. Perhaps it has its foot in both camps so to speak and is the ‘faculty’? by which form finds/becomes the formless, thus giving importance to both?

Best wishes

[s*]

@Tim,
Maybe the word soul makes the confusion?
In fact one can say or feel'' awareness'' in the One?

[Arjuna]

@ s. Hello!

No one know is the answer. Human intellectualising is using wrong in such profound matters.

I don’t get my kicks of discussing this kind of things - it’s boring and pointless!

However - neuroscience has done Man kind great favours in treating illnesses of the mind and also helping us to understand why we think we make certain decisions. Can the science tip in finding out where our thoughts come from / your guess is as good as mine!

Laters

[Arjuna]

@ Osho - sorry don’t buy it. I asked for a description of the mind and as soon as you mentioned “astral” projection I turned off. And no I don’t want to read the book you suggested. I am interested in my experience and mine alone!!!

Anyway on to more important matters to humanity than this nonsense of the One and Mind creates this or that!

Did you read the article about that Elvis recorded his voice 4 years after his death in which he stated that he was living on an island. They even had a photo of him - now that’s interesting 😀

[Osho Robbins]

@ Arjuna

You wrote

Anyway on to more important matters to humanity than this nonsense of the One and Mind creates this or that!

Did you read the article about that Elvis recorded his voice 4 years after his death in which he stated that he was living on an island. They even had a photo of him - now that’s interesting 😀

There is your answer.

That is the mind.

A collection of beliefs.
About
What is true
What is false
What is interesting
What is boring.

All based on the past.

When you or anyone says "I agree" or
"I don't agree"
What does this really mean?

It means this:

Based on my personal prejudices, beliefs, experiences, conclusions,
That statement matches
Or mismatches.

The unspoken part is:

Therefore it must be the truth.

Actually truth has nothing to do with our opinion.

If I say "gsd is a conman"
Or
"Gsd is a saint"

It doesn't make it TRUE
It just makes it my opinion

The mind is a collection of opinions that masquerade as the truth

Happy now?

[Tim Rimmer]

Hey *s - I agree the word soul is so loaded as to become problematic - awareness is probably as good an alternative as we can use.

Arjuna - your ‘intellectualising’ comment to *s - I see this as a fairly standard RSSB follower response. Quite likely that few really get what soul is. However, if we stick with RSSB isn’t this path supposed to be the ‘Science of the Soul’? That is, followers utilise a scientific process (a course in meditational experimentation) in order to understand the nature of mind and their true self? It’s my view that to get real, actualised knowledge of this, both mind and heart need to be integrated - intellect plays its role.

Best wishes

[Meditator]

@Osho
So far we have been unable to find a convincing answer, in fact clear evidence to supporting allegations. It is only the conclusions which are left to be drawn by the onlookers and which they according to their own bias preset towards or against the path as of then

"You expected unconditional love from him, and say "I love you Master"

The slightest hint that he might not be perfect and might have done something somewhot dishonest - and you all run for the exit.

Talk about double standards.

Who is not dishonest anyways? Can you point to anyone?

And you expect the "perfect master" to be "perfect".

There is no such thing as "perfection"

He is an ordinary human being.

Someone asked Osho "Who are you?"

his reply:

"I am a man - just like you - no Christ - no Messiah"

Gurinder has never claimed to be anything more.

Neither, for that matter has Charan.

Some people have said "But the books say it"

That's baggage from the past. The teachings WERE different back then.

Sawan was asked if hell was literal - he said YES

Ask Gurinder - he will say NO!

He has said to me in very clear words that the stories are just made up: Kal standing on one leg etc.

And this was not in a private interview - but in front of 5000 + people"

Good Noon, Sir.
It is exactly 12 in my watch. Thanks for the rejoinder.

I consider and so may be, many others that we are stuffed into this world to live and die till a period of time when we fail to keep our organs intact and working. At least I got attached to this divine path as found it to be promising in extending the death of physical into an eternal bliss- all peaceful, hereafter.

With a strong lineage of Perfect Masters lined one after the other ever since Soami Ji Maharaj and volumes of personal supernatural experiences noted down in the scriptures, books and satsangs since then besides experiences shared in this blog series by Jasbir and others even now (with the present Master whose credentials with regards to perfection in spiriutuality are doubted) it is extremely difficult for any of us like me to doubt HIM, his spiritual perfection - as if HE has been chosen by the previous Master as to be lesser than HIM. Also if any believed the previous one to be lesser God or lesser perfect than perhaps the earlier Perfect Master to him then should we conclude that he may have chosen him wrongly.

Then mere taking down what he spoke off or did misappropriation as evidence of his lesser perfection may not be justified in the light of ample spiritual experiences of many among us.

In fact this whole issue of Ranbaxy, Fortis etc has drawn us to believing the spiritual experiences which we have had as to be mere unreal mental projections, manifestations of quantum physics etc.

But here we need counter a string of personal spiritual experiences which their beholders have considered as real and due to them, others considered this divine path to be true and last resort. Hence evidence presented and concluded are not sufficient to draw a conclusion to the contrary but in fact it has put the whole issue of spirituality into a big 'confusion' , wherever we watch for it now. That is, if it is not being practised here at RSSB then it can be practised nowhere.

[Osho Robbins]

We give our own opinion the stamp of approval.

Other peoples opinions are unstamped and therefore unconfirmed.

Or they are stamped "unapproved" or even "false "

And we spend our life marketing our opinion as the truth.

[s*]

It is not the Master..but Us..what we do and how we live..
Attachment to the Path...ofcourse..if one is long on the Path and whole life is around that.
Like sewa satsang friends,guru coming etc..
Then when one has beautiful experiences in meditation one thinks it is because of Master..
That is an important one..I am sort of brought up from teens..everything good is from Master..
Especially in Love good beautifull blissful meditations.
Now I see it's just there,even when master is not ''there''
We are All from God or Ocean,or whatever we call IT..

Anyways now,that I am ''over''things I can love the way I am brought up on the path and love''my'' master(s)..
Now'' grown up is there''..and we just go trough life as is written on our forehead ..

[Arjuna]

@ Tim - hello and hope you are well?

I’m not RSSB.

Regards

A

[s*]

Dear Arjuna,
It is not easy to loose one's path..
I know that.
So hope you are going alright..

Love,
s*

[Meditator]

Perhaps a few of you may be more versed with the reality at the Dera or its centres that you feel comforted by being away from it than into it. But a common satsangi has no real sense or understanding of the scene behind the curtains or beyond satsangs/teachings or even meditation.

yes, personal experiences can never be confirmed. These are a matter of faith. And if one does not get consistent rise often with the time devoted in meditation regularly then one has to rely on others experiences and satsangs for motivation. And these others' experiences could validate the path till such time one experiences himself or may be such time may never come.

Perhaps direct answers can never be drawn due to faith generated out of in-depth inner experiences to great levels of a few of us (however, not sure if they have spoken the truth) juxtaposed against deceitful reality seen/concluded as witnessed by a few of us.

[Arjuna]

@ s

Thank you? May I ask if you are a brother or sister?

[Arjuna]

@ Osho - with the greatest respect I have never read a pile of poo as you wrote above !!! !!!!

Let me ask you once again in plain English !!! Let’s hope you understand this time!

Describe the mind to me - what does it look like???

Ps your reply above was pretty patronising - just want you to understand that!!!

[s*]

Hi Arjuna,
I am a sister.

[Osho Robbins]

@arjuna
You wrote
Let me ask you once again in plain English !!! Let’s hope you understand this time!

Describe the mind to me - what does it look like???

My answer

It’s a red square box with two holes in it.

Is that what you want?

It is not a physical thing so I can’t tell you what it looks like
Any more than you can tell me what god looks like
Or what love looks like.

I am sorry if you don’t like the answer I gave earlier.
My intention was not to patronise

If you have a better answer please share

[Osho Robbins]

Our good friend Manjit shared this with me

The same guy has other videos where he explains that Nanak was teaching ONENESS

https://youtu.be/pTRTtYUONgs

[Arjuna]

@ Osho - I wasn’t being funny - I am a learner and seeker.

You have proved to me that you are nothing but a pundit or a teacher who has read some books but has no experience.

So if the mind is not physical then what is it? Your response above my futility in asking this question.

Have a good evening and enjoy the intellectual orgasms on here - for I am after TRUTH.

Omg you will now lecture me on what truth is loooool.

😀

[Arjuna]

@ S.

Hello sister - I sense we have a story to tell, as do I.

Stay strong sister

Much love

Arjuna

[Tim Rimmer]

Hi Arjuna - Copy that. I'm quite well thanks :-)

Osho - I checked out the video - a very clear-speaking dude. Simple message. Thanks
When you next see/hear from Manjit say hi from me.

Best wishes

[Jen]

Hi s* and Arjuna,

I've been through what you are probably experiencing. Its difficult and takes a long time to come to accept the realisation that this journey of following a so called perfect living master is probably because of our own insecurities.

We were taught that the mind is Kal, the negative power, so we then give our personal power to some so called perfect living master who we think will be able to help us. Slowly we realise that we can take back our own personal power, live with strong principles and have faith in our own spiritual self and stop giving our power away to another.

No need to fear that our ego is growing and its bad to feel one's own inner strength, its not ego, its soul and we all have a magnificent soul/spirit and when we acknowledge it slowly we become more happy and strong in who and what we are.

A practice of acceptance and peace of mind slowly develops when we calmly observe our thoughts, keep coming back into awareness, watching self, watching our habits. Its a practice of no expectations, just observing our own way of being. Being kind and gentle to ourself. It takes a long time but its a journey in learning to love oneself, having faith in one's spirit, with quiet observation and after many years of this practice there is a calm and serenity that starts to appear.

Sorry if I'm being preachy. I still remember the difficulty of pulling away from Sant Mat and finding my own independence. Much love from grandma Jen :)

[Arjuna]

Hello Jen (I would love to call you Grandma - as I never knew mine).

I have just read your response and words escape me. It touched me deeply. Thank you for making my day and I really mean that.

I am trying to escape the conditioning after all the revelations. I wanted truth and not "do as I say not as I do" from the Master. I really hope he reads this!

I recently purchased a book "The Body Keeps The Score" Mind, Brain and Body in the Transformation of Trauma" by Bessel Van Der Kolk. Please do Google it. It has opened my eyes to the love I missed when I was a child (my parents died when I was very young) and then growing up. Going to Satsang to find love and peace - there is a joke in there somewhere. For those in India- who do not understand this remark, I mean it was all acting and falsehoods. No one helps anyone - unless you have a business with loads of money. Money talks. Talking of money - I have lead a very simple life and thought many times I must not chase money as its against God. Lol.

And then I find out God (GIHF) and his family are chasing money lol.

1. His sons and Daughter in laws live in MayFair London and Singapore. Mayfair London is the where the mega rich live. No harm in this as everyone if they can should live somewhere nice. But many of us thought we must live simple lives. They ain't!
2. 250 million plus borrowed to buy real estate land and then the value of land goes down - did they not see this coming. Is this not greed?
3. Changing the teachings - there is Kal as he once said "he is the Lords greatest disciple". And then there is no Kal or regions. What? Make your mind up. This is messing with the minds of genuine seekers - some of whom may not be as streetwise as me!
4. This fascination with Bollyhood stars - Do they lead moral lives (these women/men are objects of desire).

The list goes on Jen. This is the conflict I have! Don't really have a family- those left don't care - mind you they are devout Satsanghis. Always going to see him. (Once again - there is a joke in there somewhere, perhaps a Monty Python sketch.

I kind of feel bad as I was hard on Osho but its just words and theory (much of it derived from the "teachings"). Conditioned men who still seek solace in RSSB but are in denial and writing on here with their take on what we really are.

Thought I would write how I feel as I get good vibes from you.

Much love Granda Jen.

Arjuna

[Jen]

Hi Arjuna, you do have a strong spirit, it comes through in your comments, good vibes as well.

This is just a thought that has come to me, because its difficult to understand life and how and why we are here.

I wonder sometimes if we actually choose our life to experience being human as some kind of challenge and we are here to test ourself. Yours has been big challenge without family etc, so continue to be strong and a gentle giant! Well done young man, its good to express your feelings 👍

[Arjuna]

Hello Jen

Thank you. It is night here and I will respond to you tomorrow.

Kind words mean a lot from you.

Night from me - for now.

Arjuna

[Osho Robbins]

@Arjuna

you wrote
@ Osho - I wasn’t being funny - I am a learner and seeker.

You have proved to me that you are nothing but a pundit or a teacher who has read some books but has no experience.

you don't know anything about me. but you are welcome to your opinion.

You are far from being a seeker and you are not after truth.
Like most people - you are after YOUR VERSION of the truth - the one that FITS
based on your own pre-conceived ideas. That is not truth.

When a scientist does an experiment - he goes by the results - not what he expects the results to be.

You ask a question - but you don't want an answer.

So if the mind is not physical then what is it? Your response above my futility in asking this question.

so you are saying the mind is physical?
perhaps you are referring to the brain, which is physical.

in which case - it's a matter of definitions

[Osho Robbins]

@Arjuna
you wrote
Going to Satsang to find love and peace

everyone does that. All religions offer solace. Truth is not solace.

many years ago a spiritual teacher asked me

"Do you want comfort or truth?"

Most seek comfort.

this is me from the days when I used to give talks for RSSB

even back then 2002 - I was no longer a follower and the whole
talk is about awakening - not following blindly

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rwTQiZb_8zs&t=598s

RSSB has never taught - "don't make money"
all they said was "choose your priority and keep a balance"

I have always been extreme - not a balance.
when I did follow sant mat - I dropped everything and went to india and spent time with Sant Thakar - who my my first sant mat guru
and later with Swami Divyanand (kirpal successor) who used to sit me
in meditation from morning to evening. I wanted to get to sach khand above all else.

It wasn't will a lot later that I awoke to the truth that there cannot be regions and it is all a mind-play

[Arjuna]

@ Osho -And you don’t know anything about me either. We all have a story brother - don’t we.

Will read and watch the video link you posted above later.

The thing that annoys me is that please don’t try and pyschoanalyse me - as I have seen the best and the very worst of mankind. Seen it all brother.

Right laters

[Arjuna]

@ Osho your statement above:

RSSB has never taught - "don't make money"
all they said was "choose your priority and keep a balance"

That made me laugh 😂

[Osho Robbins]

@arjuna

I never claimed to know about you

But you did.

As for making money, RSSB has never took a stance of not making money. It doesn’t tell you to become a recluse. It says be a householder and earn a living.

Not sure what makes you laugh.

If you think RSSB is against making money, show me.

Anything to excess is not healthy. RSSB teaches balance.

The notion that GSD says don’t do business and don’t make money is simply not true.

[Arjuna]

@ Osho - let’s drop it - it doesn’t matter to be fair. It is what it is.

I will be on tour again (armed forces) so I have more pressing things to think about and getting my body back into shape.

Keeping you guys safe to discuss all this Oneness etc. That what we do.

All the very best. And be good !!!

[Meditator]

In case of business what need be profits or margins that should be accepted from the fellow brothers/sisters of this world. Since all are sparks of same ocean while none is a stranger than how is it possible for one to extract extra profits from others.

And if he is handicapped in accepting profits or margins more than a value( it is said somewhere in scriptures that a margin of 10% should be acceptable to earn ones livelihood)then chance of his amassing great wealth seems remote.

Some business ethics would essentially be required to qualify for HIS abode and hence for successful prayers/meditation. Guru Granth Sahib says,

'Paapan Bajhon hoe naahi Moyaa Sang naa Jaayin' meaning that without evils it(wealth) can not be amassed while it does not go along.

In fact sane living and sane earning are at the heart of santmat. About HIS enormous wealth he knows best but it should be like Saint Kabir or Guru Nanak Or Jesus Christ. If not then perhaps it could be due to some strange reason. Alone HE knows!

I myself have kept safe distance from excessive earnings but I now feel that if I could be a little more clever to earn a little more, still morally acceptable then it may not have made a great difference but I may not had to go through some deliberate penance thus far. I admit that I have changed a bit for comfortable survival.

[s*]

@Meditator,
So because of what you know about the'' money problems''..
You change your way of life in that specific?

It's anyways strange that money plays such gigantic role these days.

We better go back to just the needs..and help oneanother..in my idea and vieuw.
Money makes people crazy and to much selfish and often'' proud about nothing.''

[Meditator]

Actually I had very bad times because of my exact dependence on clean money while other sources of clean money had even warped or dried then gradually. Now here clean money mean the ethical, morally acceptable limits of earning, profits, margins in business /trade etc.

Later I became a little clever in earning than behaving as a lamb to HIS numerous sparks yearning for HIM only , which as a matter of mercy be protected by HE, the all merciful. Anyhow now everything is back on track mercifully and My thanks to HIM to whom I always bow and shall ever.

However I found that some of even the best of fellow satsangis have involved themselves desperately towards earning more and more. As someone in this blog pointed out that earning to fullest or milking any opportunity to brim is fairly acceptable in RSSB and which means that it will not fall in between ones spiritual merits.

And here's the confusion. Because on the lines of Kabir Sahib, one should only earn as much as would be sufficient for that day!

[Arjuna]

@ mediator - hello.

That is what I have always observed. As Sherlock Holmes would say “you see but you do not observe”,

You go to Haynes and if you money - you count! They even look suitable partners based on wealth for their children! Let a poor man be treated like royalty there or one without connections and I will take all this back!!!

Anyone who argues otherwise is part of that system and therefore a threat to themselves and others!!!

[s*]

These days even in the Sangat..money has something to do with'' being and doing good.'':(It's idiotic!
Good Karma ;) which is totaly silly ofcourse.
We need food clothes and a roof..such things..
But in this period in time money is the ruler.(very very bad)
Greed greed greed all over the place..
Not good for ourselves not good for the earth.
And it is all about outer stuff..
While the Inner is not even imprtant,it seems.

Simran and bajan is not the only Inner world..

We as a whole..have an Inner..world..Our idea's,our feelings,inspiration etc..
Not only guru lives..We are also alive with our own Being.

[Meditator]

@Arjuna @s*

Good evening.

Greed or what. Can not say but the very purpose of being into santmat is to free oneself from insecurities posed to us by life at the outset as an incentive and death later. We are expected to be least bothered and do only as much is reqd to live a comfortable life than being extravagant. Reaching or revealing HIM is supposed to be the only goal that was expected of us by the Master, rest all to be taken care of by his mercy adequately for I or we being in his safe abode forever.

But as someone pointed out as a matter of coincidence the Masters nowadays especially in India have been quite wealthy and may be even wealthier than any of their disciples. While they are also the harbinger of truth and Truth unto themselves.

Your views therefore are partly acceptable but since the divine principles have been more thorough in RSSB ever since 1880s, close to 140 years of its strong spiritual unblemished history than any other sect of India the benefit of doubt remains. I could still say that HE may have some reason for the things...

[Arjuna]

@ Mediator - Lets await for the reason then???