The absurdity of believing there is Sach Khand (heaven)

Here's a guest post from the always-interesting Osho Robbins. Plus, a video Robbins made to accompany what follows. It has a "69" joke, so that alone leads me to recommend it.

Robbins has an intriguing take on the Sant Mat version of spirituality. Since I wrote a book called Return to the One, I'm sympathetic to the notion of oneness. 

However, I'm also sympathetic to the notion of non-oneness, since as Robbins observes, if everything was really One, there wouldn't be anybody who could stand outside of the oneness and say, "This One is absolutely wonderful!" (or we might say, onederful)

Anyway, here's Robbins' thoughts on the absurdity of believing in Sach Khand. But when I Googled this term, I found that you can take a train there -- along with luggage. Cool. Who knew heaven was so close at hand?

How absurd! The absurdity of believing there is a Sach Khand

Many religions believe that the ‘soul’ (or some equivalent) goes to a certain ‘place’ after death; either a heaven or a hell. They also believe in the concept of a ‘being’ that is in charge of that place (God or the Devil, respectively).

However, they cannot see the absurdity of all this, until an actual example is put before them – then they will laugh and say something like, “Oh, it’s not a place and God is not a person.”

Oh, okay – so it’s in a non-place and the God and Devil are ‘non-persons’?  Now that makes sense? The God and devil are depicted as actual beings in the relevant holy books. Some examples are: 

Sar Bachan:  One hair on his body has the light of a thousand suns.

(that means you would get instantly blinded if you look at him, but of course, the soul has super-eyes that cannot be blinded)

The Bible: “Then God said….”  “And God was a jealous God.”

(so apparently God is just like us, made in OUR image: he speaks, he gets jealous, he gets angry and brings a flood to destroy his own creation, which incidentally means he also makes mistakes, he even tells lies when he told Adam not to eat of the tree of knowledge of Good and Evil because ‘you will surely die’ but it was a lie because he did not die, instead God cursed him).

The point I am making is that God appears to be like a human. He talks, he thinks, he has emotions. He makes decisions. So he must be a ‘noun’ (an entity that has a shape and a form). He cannot both have a shape and be formless, just as you cannot have a “Square Circle”.

So the video I have created goes into the belief of a Sach Khand and a Sat Purush (or Anami Purush) who apparently resides there. 

This belief is held by all followers of Radha Soami and Sant Mat; although they will say “But they are spiritual regions and not physical” but this is just a nonsensical get-out clause. “Spiritual” is just another concept to explain what you cannot explain. 

Non-Duality is different.

In non-duality you cannot have a God or a Devil and they cannot interact with you – there cannot be any transaction or communication. In fact there cannot be a YOU separate from the ONEness (non-duality) as that is no longer ONENESS. 

I remember having discussions with “Jim Sutherland” telling him to avoid meeting Anami, because the moment he meets him, he will merge him into himself and that will be the end of Jim!

Jim, like many followers of religions, don’t like the idea of non-existence. They want to know that they will continue to exist after death and also when they get to heaven or Sach Khand. Non-existence doesn’t seem to be a viable goal. 

After all, it seems absurd doesn’t it? 

Imagine the conversation:

“So why exactly are you meditating 2 hours a day?”

“Oh, so I can merge into the supreme being and stop existing.”

“You mean you just want to disappear into nothing?”

“No, I will still be there, just different from the way I am now.”

It’s fantasy land. You cannot become the ONE and remain separate. There cannot be more than one ONE!

Anyway – here’s the video:

The absurdity of the scenario in the video makes it obvious that it’s all nonsense; but then, the follower has to ask “If this is absurd, then what is the truth? What will actually happen when I get to the non-place called Sach Khand?”

 

Comments

[Fairy]

Hi, Your video spoils what you have said, in my opinion. It would have been better to have left it out.
" Gone, gone, gone altogether beyond, oh what an awakening!" "Form is emptiness, emptiness is form."
Nothing arises by its own side or "self". Everything has dependent origination and cannot arise independently. All matter and probably antimatter too depends on various aggregates to become or to manifest or not. These aggregates when broken down further become quantum particles. Therefore nothing can in reality exist by its own self, so is therefore nothing but an illusion. This does not mean that objects do not exist though, but without a subject, do they? Without an object can a subject arise? Once again is it not a matter of non reality and illusion?

For that which does not arise independently has an illusion of being real, but cannot be because its arising is totally dependent upon many factors, which without them, could not arise. So therefore nothing exists by its own self or side. So it stands to reason too, in the unseen world, the unmanifest, the uncreate formlessness, the same principles occur. If this is the case then there cannot possibly be a self.

Therefore logically there is nothing that exists on its own. If nothing can't exist on its own, then there just has to be NO THING!

In regards to karma, every action does have a reaction. Surely this is the true meaning of karma? I don't know. But I do know, no God created the man made religions on the planet! Perhaps it all started with a benign dictator mind controlling the masses and it all went haywire as we humans bred and bred and bred!

I also know, that nobody knows what happens to awareness when we die. NOBODY AT ALL. And anyway, who cares. We can't do anything about it. I am not sure if meditation and Buddhist or Sant Mat practices of conscious dying actually work when the time comes or whether it will just be a falling into oblivion as when an anesthetic is administered. One thing for sure is, I will find out!

However, as we progress more and more into understanding the science of quantum physics and quantum mechanics, all religions will fall by the wayside, when the artificial intelligence deletes its computer game and ceases to be! ( For the time being) There is a season for everything and it does appear NOTHING is cyclic.

[Vinny]

These are concepts of divine energy/atomic energy which atheists want people should consider as Sachkhand. These atheists are very cunning people, they have zero contribution in modern inventions of Physics. On top of that they be fool innocent people by twisting concepts of atomic energy to Sach khand. Their days are numbered, good riddance. When I ask these atheists why energy in atom is not exhausting since zillions of years they become rabid atheists.

[OshoRobbins]

Vinny, you write in riddles. What exactly are you trying to say?
In normal English please.

Which atheist wants you to consider that a concept of atomic energy is sach kkand?

How are atheists cunning?

When did an atheist claim to be a physicist?

Why would you ask an atheist about the energy of an atom exhausting?

You need to ask a scientist, not an atheist. An atheist is only refuting the claim of a theist that there is a God.

That is the topic you can discuss with an atheist.

[Arjuna]

@ Vinny - some of the greatest scientists have been atheists. Don’t get your point about athiests not contributing anything to modern physics.

[Arjuna]

@ Osho Robbins - hello brother - trust you are well?

May I ask as to what made you leave the path?

Ps I’m on the fence at this moment in my
Life.

[Vinny]

When I ask these cunning atheists why energy in atom is not exhausting since zillions of years these cunning atheists say I should ask these questions to Physicist while these cunning atheists keep citing from scientific texts to support their trash atheism

[Osho Robbins]

@Vinny
"When I ask these cunning atheists why energy in atom is not exhausting since zillions of years these cunning atheists say I should ask these questions to Physicist while these cunning atheists keep citing from scientific texts to support their trash atheism"

What are you talking about?

If you really want the answer: a 30 sec google search reveals the answer.

In physics, the law of conservation of energy states that the total energy of an isolated system remains constant, it is said to be conserved over time. This law means that energy can neither be created nor destroyed; rather, it can only be transformed or transferred from one form to another.

So there you have it: your answer. It has nothing to do with God or Shabd or anything else.

and by the way, what are YOU contributing to modern science?
and why is it important for you that a person contributes?

A politician contributes nothing to modern science, so do you have a problem with him too?

Your logic has a lot to be desired, I am afraid.

If you have a real point to make, please make it clearly, instead of referring to atoms or energy

[Osho Robbins]

@Arjuna

You are asking the wrong person, as I have never left.

It all depends on which path you are referring to.

The current head of RSSB does not follow the traditional sant mat teachings
as shown many times.

He has said many times: No master will come at death;
There are no regions; they are not literal; just a device to explain.
The path is about REALIZATION, not about getting anywhere as there is nowhere to get, hence why he says he is not coming at death.

Yet most followers are not on the same page as their current master is.

So there is a huge amount of confusion. The disciples are on a different path.

So when you go to satsang on sunday and some speaker is giving a talk - they are giving you THEIR version, which is full of the concepts they adhere to.

There are as many paths as there are followers. Each has their own little take on the meaning of the path.
It's more like "do you own thing - create and follow your own path"
because nobody is going to correct you.
If you believe the master comes at death - you will continue to believe that
and you will justify the gurus statements to the contrary in your own way. You will have your own explanation.

[Vinny]

The cunning atheist says total energy is constant, constant is not unlimited, constant energy will exhaust in few hundred years but the energy in atom has not exhausted since zillions of years. Look audience, now a Non Christian atheist will become rabid atheist after I busted his argument.
This cunning Non Christian atheist should look at the video below, the title says " Hindus, Muslims and Sikhs are all bastards.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0jtRDQDCOPY

[Osho Robbins]

@Vinny:
you write: "constant is not unlimited, constant energy will exhaust in few hundred years"

No it will not. Which version of reality do you live in?

I repeat the statement below:
In physics, the law of conservation of energy states that the total energy of an isolated system remains constant, it is said to be conserved over time. This law means that energy can neither be created nor destroyed; rather, it can only be transformed or transferred from one form to another.

do you see the "conserved over time" statement? It does not say (as you do) that it will disappear over a few hundred years.

Where do you get your statements from? Can you show me a definition of "constant" that says "constant means it will exhaust over a few hundred years unless it is also unlimited"

What you have just done above, is exactly what followers of RSSB do with what they hear. They hear something then interpret it and come out with a completely different statement, and they think they have it all figured out.

You think that this one statement you keep on making somehow shows you are right and everyone else is wrong.

You have not yet even shared why it's important in your version of reality that the energy of an atom gets exhausted over time unless.......
and then you have your answer as to why it really doesn;t get exhausted.

I am afraid that is flawed logic. seriously flawed

[Osho Robbins]

@Fairy
I couldn't do that because I created the video first then wrote the narrative.

The video is a comical and absurd look at the idea that we go to Sach Khand after death, and a scenario of what might happen once we get there. I purposely depicted Anami as a personality that swears a lot. I guess most people will say He has good manners and is holy and doesn't swear.

The real point I am making is that there cannot be a Anami purush at all. Which means we don't meet anyone and the whole notion of a Sach Khand and a ruler of the region is absurd.

These are all concepts that were created as a work of fiction, not literal.

[Spence Tepper]

To describe Sant Mat or any faith or spiritual practice from the outside, as an Anti-theist, can't be done objectively. The Anti-theist may see several aspects of faith which the believer cannot see from their position, steeped in the experience of their belief, blinded by that experience. Yet, there are truths of that experience which can only be understood within that faith by those who have experienced those things, and who actively have that experience.

Whenever anyone criticises those who hold other views, they actually describe the holes in their own.

In this way the Anti-theist demonstrates that their position of being against has no positive foundation or benefit.

Having no wealth they accuse the world of being in poverty. That is a truthful expression of their own experience. But it is limited to themselves.

The whole world may be fools, but it is more likely that the foolishness resides within ourselves. But God is there too, within.

So the anti - theist may shout that the believer lives in poverty, as the believer walks hand in hand with God upon a beautiful tapistry to the bank to make their daily deposits.

[Arjuna]

@ Osho - hello!

I don’t go to satsang! But thanks for your explanation - however you are an ex preacher of RSSB so what do you advocate now and yes I know what the current master says in that he ain’t coming at death etc etc etc.

I’m asking you questions if you haven’t left what did you believe in before and what are your beliefs now??? I liked your video but that’s just a projection of Your mind - and I don’t know what lies beyond this. Before you ask me!

[777]

0 * 1. =. 0, ( not 1 )

repeat

Zero for ONE time stays Zero

or

I give a party
Nobody comes
Still empty

btw

I do nothing for ONE TIME

or

My party did ONE TIME. not happen

or

I did NOT a Big Bang

and

Ridiculous

That atheist are not deeply ashamed with their no-grade Math of 1Q 13

777

So there must have been a trigger

Please stop thinking - ten seconds already does it
which throws the moron OUT
and U see answers, you might call it SK or anything else
It's LOVE
and it cannot come without some compassion

777

PS
Go out off the box

[Arjuna]

@ Osho - yes I get the path is about Realisation.

What do you expect to realise???

[Arjuna]

@ Osho - your physics explanation is poor - shows a layman.

Energy going into a black hole- the black hole evaporated taking all that energy and information some where.

Explain that - energy does not convert into something else - all the time.

The greatest scientific minds are struggling with black holes - where Einstein’s laws cease to apply. So please as you state so eloquently that followers have their own version of what the master says - you and many others do the same with science. Fact is no one knows. Sorry but that is you to realise on your own.

No one knows 🤘🏽

[Spence Tepper]

Hi Osho
Your remarks to Vinny about energy jump to conclusions that are false.

While energy, or information, can be transformed and not destroyed, you ignore the fact of entropy and dissipation.

If the potential energy of a single electron is constantly being burned in light, heat and movement, why don't electrons wear out?

Of course chemistry has a partial answer in that the state of that electron changes as part of chemical interactions.

But this doesn't address Vinny 's point. The electron may change states, but why don't they ever wear out? Where do they get their energy from?

The answer is that we don't have all the answers.

Osho and Brian, let me humbly suggest that moving from the dogma of religion to the dogma of anti-theism is only a small change in consciousness and not the answer to any of the significant questions about life.

[Vinny]

This cunning crooked atheist tells me constant energy is infinite. If say constant in any system is 100 units it will remain 100 units, this crooked atheist is telling a person who has dedicated his life to Energy Physics. Constant will remain constant if energy is not used. If energy is used for any activity even for the movement of electrons in atom it will exhaust in few days, forget few years or zillions of years. This crooked man should again watch the video titled " Hindus, Moslems and Sikhs are all bastards.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0jtRDQDCOPY
My personal experience with these three breeds is the same, they behave like bastards when anyone logically busts their argument

[Vinny]

This crooked atheist osho robbins doesn't know there are some Churches in America and Britain who don't take any energy from government energy grid or Solar cell or Wind energy. Still they run on electricity transformed from unlimited Divine Energy. This crooked Non Christian atheist osho robbins doesn't know Jesus has already manifested himself by giving the secrets of unlimited Divine Energy to the believers of Jesus. As Jesus promised he has already manifested in Second Coming of Christ by revealing the secrets of infinite energy in the hearts of believers.
This crooked man should again watch the video titled " Hindus,Moslems and Sikhs are all bastards" and weep after that.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0jtRDQDCOPY

[Osho Robbins]

@Vinny / Arjuna / Spence

I am not a physicist, and I don't claim to be one. I know nothing more than a layman. I just did a 30 second google search and wrote the answer it gave addressing ONE specific point that vinny raised.

Vinny has some very strange ideas considering he claims to be some kind of expert.

For one - atoms are a MODEL - not an actual fact. There is no such thing as an ATOM or an electron or a neutron. They are not actual things. It is just a theory to explain the phenomena we observe. As long as the theory enables us to understand matter better, we use it. Later theories were the wave theory of matter - stating that matter behaves like waves. And they both are useful theories.

I found this on a google search:
"Do matter and energy behave as particles or as waves? A curious irregularity exists in Physics, one which has confounded even the greatest minds and to this day seems a most bizarre paradox. The debate as to whether matter and energy behave as particles or as waves has a long and often quarrelsome history"

read it all here http://www.ucl.ac.uk/~zcape84/pdf/500essay.pdf

I am no expert - and don't claim to be - so it doesn't matter what I say - I am a novice in this field.
So, Arjuna, yes - I am creating concepts that are meaningless and wrong - but I am aware of this - and I openly state I am no expert in this field. I am just saying that Vinny's argument has major flaws in it because he appears to think the electron requires energy to move around. But there is no friction and it's not accelerating - so no energy is required. See below.

Again I am no expert - but a quick google search gives an answer

https://physics.stackexchange.com/questions/18473/where-do-electrons-get-their-ever-lasting-circulating-energy

So Spence and Vinny:
this is what it says
There is a basic misunderstanding of elementary classical physics in your question.
The first law of Newtonian mechanics says"

The velocity of a body remains constant unless the body is acted upon by an external force.

So there is no need to spend energy to keep on moving, unless external forces are acting on the body.

Electrons around a nucleus are not a classical problem, but conservation of energy holds also in the quantum states.

[Osho Robbins]

@Vinny:
you wrote:
This cunning crooked atheist tells me constant energy is infinite. If say constant in any system is 100 units it will remain 100 units, this crooked atheist is telling a person who has dedicated his life to Energy Physics. Constant will remain constant if energy is not used. If energy is used for any activity even for the movement of electrons in atom it will exhaust in few days, forget few years or zillions of years

Firstly I don't get why you need to keep using the phrase "This cunning crooked Athiest" - it's pointless.
Secondly for an expert who has devoted his life to energy physics, you seem to miss a really basic point, which has been addressed in this article I quoted above: that is that it does NOT require any energy because (1) there is no friction (2) it's not accelerating. So no friction means that no energy is required to KEEP it in motion.

So that's the answer you say nobody has ever been able to give you. You have your answer and it's right there on google. So now what? Whats was your point in saying that nobody can answer the question?

[JB]

The lure of "oneness" is yet another ruse of religion. We are exhorted to "become one" while simultaneously being told that we are already one and always have been.

I remember having discussion with a Franiciscan monk who, in the midst of our discussion, realized that "being one with God" wouldn't evaporate suffering and evil because, as he said, everyone already is one with God.

The following is an excerpt of a book review that I wrote that deals with the subject of the "oneness" experience and the necessity of separation:

The author describes the mystical experiences of two individuals- one's experience gave him the impression that "[his] consciousness was all consciousness, universal consciousness" and the other had the feeling of being "everywhere and everything, indivisible and beyond measure."

While I don't doubt that each had these impressions during their respective experiences, I would contend that they quite obviously didn't actually become everything. For instance, experiencing "all consciousness" would entail simultaneously experiencing the private flow-of-events of all 7 billion human beings on earth, not to mention all other sentient creatures.

In addition, actually becoming all other beings would seemingly entail a collapse of all of the private flow-of-events being experienced at that moment by all beings into one singular experience. In other words, if he actually became all other beings in that moment, then it would necessarily follow that all other beings also became him. Thus, all of the beings in existence would be having the same identical experience in that moment.

But we obviously know that this didn't happen, as this mystical experience, like all experiences, was individuated and discreet, happening to only one person. It was experienced by one particular individual, at one particular time and place. And that is the irony: experiences in which all individuality and separateness seem to dissolve away still occur as private (i.e., separate) experiences occurring to distinct individuals. The experience of seemingly becoming everything is still an entirely private experience, and can't be anything other than this.

The author repeats the tired, cliché exhortation that we must let go of our "separateness". I presume he means the notion of our total separateness, as it should be clear that some degree of separateness is needed for consciousness (and therefore, experience) to arise at all.

He supplies a quote from the neuroscientists Gerald M. Edelman and Guilio Tononi that deftly illustrates this point: "We emphatically do not identify consciousness in its full range as arising solely in the brain, since we believe that higher brain functions require interactions both with the world and with other persons". As indicated, the arising of the full range of consciousness is dependent upon interactions.

Some manner of separateness is exactly what allows for consciousness (and therefore, experience) to arise at all. Everyone clamors for "oneness", ostensibly not realizing that an actual oneness would involve the total obliteration of consciousness/experience. Non-separation is unconsciousness, non-experience, and nonexistence. This is why God, as an infinite yet conscious and experiencing being, is an abject impossibility. That which is indivisibly one with everything, would be entirely devoid of consciousness and experience. The author is convicted that humanity is immersed in the "illusion of separateness", but as indicated, separateness is required for the experience of anything. Referring to separateness as an "illusion" is, in my estimation, as profitable as saying that the world is an illusion, and equally as misguided and untrue.

[Osho Robbins]

@Spence
you wrote

Osho and Brian, let me humbly suggest that moving from the dogma of religion to the dogma of anti-theism is only a small change in consciousness and not the answer to any of the significant questions about life.

You specifically use the term anti-theism, rather than atheism. Have to confirmed that Brian and I are actually taking the position of an anti-theist? Certainly I don't take that position.
Atheism is not a dogma and also does not claim to give any answers

[Arjuna]

@ Osho - fair play .

Please ask the master when you next speak to him - did Kal visit beas in human form during great masters time - asking to see him???😀

That should put an end to most of the debate on here .

All the very best

[Vinny]

This cunning and crooked atheist osho robbins, wants to learn the atomic Physics from google, after that this cunning and crooked man will say he exploded atomic bomb by google doodle and it destroyed the cunning breeds mentioned in the video title. "Hindus,Muslims and Sikhs are all bastards" This crooked man doesn't know even ABCs of Quantum Friction. Now this crooked man Osho Robbins will again google the term Quantum Friction and vomit something on this blog.
This crooked man should watch the video titled "Hindus,Muslims and Sikhs are all bastards"
and weep after that. I told you audience people from these three breeds act and behave like bastards. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0jtRDQDCOPY

[JB]

The photo of the train to sachkhand reminds me of that great Love And Rockets song Kundalini Express

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=gjBJCbH0zbw

[Vinny]

This cunning crooked man osho robbins, his cunningness prompts him to do google search like every tom dick and harry does. But this crooked osho robbins had no idea about quantum friction. he should again watch the video titled " Hindus,Moslems and Sikhs are all bastards" and weep after that.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0jtRDQDCOPY
I bet this crooked man osho robbins will not be able to understand the unlimited Divine Energy of Jesus, how some Churches in America and England convert that divine energy into electricity even in next 1000 years. Now look at the idiotic behavior of this man, he does some google search and starts jumping like monkey after getting half baked answers. He should again watch the video Hindus,Moslems and Sikhs are all bastards" and weep after that.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0jtRDQDCOPY

[Vinny]

I told you audience about the video titled "Hindus,Moslems and Sikhs are all bastards" Look at the behavior of this idiotic man osho robbins, he started jumping like monkey at me after some google search. This monkey osho robbins stopped jumping after I introduced the term quantum friction. Now he will again do google search and jump like monkey again. This half baked man osho robbins wants to teach me Physics through google search. This monkey osho robbins doesn't know even google was founded by a Christian not by anyone from his breed

[Vinny]

Crooked osho robbins why you are not jumping like monkey again? I bet you will again jump like monkey after your google search. Mentally unstable crooked man osho robbins he wants teach me Physics through google search. You need serious introspection you behave like idiotic moron like the people from three cunning breeds " Hindus, Muslims and Sikhs" do.

[Vinny]

Why this monkey osho robbins has become dumb now??? Is he doing a google search again??? He is behaving like a typical Hindu /Moslem /Sikh bastards do. Jump like monkeys after reading the leftovers knowledge of Christian Innovators. He hasn't done anything to prove he is different from the breed of Hindu/Moslem/Sikh bastards

[Arjuna]

@ Vinny - steady on dude !!! No need for abuse on here!!!!

[Spence Tepper]

Hi Osho
You quoted from classical physics but wrongly applied that

"The velocity of a body remains constant unless the body is acted upon by an external force."

Electrons are accelerating in an arc, not moving at a constant velocity.

[Vinny]

This monkey osho robbins had the audacity to utter nonsense in bashing Sachkhand/ Divine Energy. Now this idiotic monkey osho robbins has become dumb after I busted his argument. I warn this monkey not to go the blasphemy way. He doesn't even know what nonsense he talks about. He is half baked idiot who wants to become Physicist by google search. Now suddenly his love for Physics has arisen. Was this idiot osho robbins sleeping before posting blasphemous content without having expertise in Physics? Such idiots are commonplace now

[Spence Tepper]

Hi Osho
Anti-theism is negative views of beliefs about God.

That's what this post is all about.

Whether you are or are not an Atheist is entirely a separate and unrelated issue.

Here, in your criticism, you and Brian have taken the position of anti - theists.

[Vinny]

This idiot monkey osho robbins has no idea about something called angular acceleration. Now he will do google search and again jump like monkey. This idiot has audacity to talk about Sachkhand/Divine Energy when doesn't even know the basics of Physics

[Arjuna]

@ Spencer - hope you are well brother!

These athiests are getting on my nerves now ha. Prove God doesn’t exist and I will become one of you! Let’s see science work that magic - like the gravitational waves which turned out to be spuds 🥔 baked and served with beans and a bit of Indian ghee with masala😀

Sorry just adding some mindless humour! Stay well bro

[Joe]

I guess the author of this piece doesn't really understand non-duality or formlessness, since there are levels of non-duality, one of which is non-separation from the formless spirit that is the essence of everything.

[Spence Tepper]

Hi Joe
You wrote
"I guess the author of this piece doesn't really understand non-duality or formlessness, since there are levels of non-duality, one of which is non-separation from the formless spirit that is the essence of everything."

Yes. Different understanding from different levels of understanding.

Anyone can see that we are all part of the same creation. We are all made of atoms, we are all present at the same time. Here in earth we all share this fragile planet, and among all sentient beings, this fragile creation ; we are all products of our culture and genetics, etc.... To seek that singular experience is a wonderful and uniquely human capacity.

In Oneness there is no conflict. Only harmony. From the concept leads to the practice. From the practice comes the reward of the experience : peace that transcends understanding.

[Brian Hines]

Religiously-minded commenters should do some Googling before blathering on about atoms losing energy, and implying that something divine keeps them in motion.

Here's some links to educate these people. Basically the message is...

Energy is conserved. It can't be gained or lost. The universe started off with all the energy it would ever have in the Big Bang. Since, that energy keeps things in motion. This motion is guided by the laws of quantum physics.

http://www.fnal.gov/pub/science/inquiring/questions/perpetualmotion.html

https://education.jlab.org/qa/atomicstructure_08.html

https://van.physics.illinois.edu/qa/listing.php?id=1195

[Osho Robbins]

@Vinny

Not sure what is wrong with you but you are actually living proof of the damage religious beliefs can do.

Anyone can see from your rantings that you are mentally unstable in that you cannot have a reasonable debate.

you wrote:

This monkey osho robbins had the audacity to utter nonsense in bashing Sachkhand/ Divine Energy. Now this idiotic monkey osho robbins has become dumb after I busted his argument.

First of all there is no need for calling me a monkey. Is that what your religion / faith teaches you?
And for your information I have not bashed Sach Khand or divine energy - except in your mind.
I merely showed the absurdity of holding a belief in a literal Sach Khand. That's all, and its not offensive to anyone except you. If you are offended, I apologise as that was not my intention.

Please explain exactly which argument of mine you "busted".

I warn this monkey not to go the blasphemy way. He doesn't even know what nonsense he talks about. He is half baked idiot who wants to become Physicist by google search. Now suddenly his love for Physics has arisen.

Wow really? You warn me? Far out!
And please explain what is the so called "blasphemy" charge against me and will I get crucified for it? Like Jesus?

Where do you get the idea that I want to be a physicist? I specifically pointed out that I am NOT a physicist, or an expert in quantum physics and I explained I did a simple google search which actually answered your question.

You have not addressed this at all. Very strange for an expert physicist, yet to claim to have "won" some argument and "bashed" my position.

Please explain calmly without pointless name-calling. If you notice I have not called you any names. Please extend me the same courtesy if you want to have a debate, and please address the points instead of name calling.

Was this idiot osho robbins sleeping before posting blasphemous content without having expertise in Physics? Such idiots are commonplace now

Was I sleeping? No. And why do I need expertise in Physics? What has physics got to do with my posting? Please explain.
And I don't see anything 'blasphemous' in what I posted. I merely pointed out the absurdity or holding certain beliefs.

In response - You started ranting on, but you have not addressed any of the points raised

Please address the points I have raised if you can do so without using abusive language or losing your balance.

Otherwise, it might be better to leave this matter here unless you can have a civilized discussion.

[Osho Robbins]

@spence
"Here, in your criticism, you have taken the position of anti - theists."

I have deleted Brian as you can address that to him.

I have not taken that position at all. I am merely exploring the notion of an actual 'personal' God. I am exploring the absurdity of it. That is all. The video simply explores what a believer might think or imagine happens. I am merely asking, does this seem reasonable? and if not, then what do you think will happen when you get to Sach Khand?

I am merely playing around with those ideas. I have not taken a position on anything here. Merely exploring the absurdity of it. So no, I am not an Anti-theist.

[Vinny]

Universe started with energy of big bang, but that energy has been getting utilized in so many activities that are done through energy like formation of stars, galaxies, planets etc
To think that big bang means unlimited energy only a monkey like osho robbins or his friends would believe that blatant lie. Big bang doesn't mean unlimited energy you idiot, wake up, don't do blasphemy, you will not be spared

[Arjuna]

@ Brian - athiests should also question their Sciences Gods - they are flawed just as you and I are!

I didn’t say atoms losing energy -I just said I want you or any scientist to tell me what happens when matter goes into a black hole and all Einstein’s laws mean zilch ! Yep that’s correct zilch!

Keep it real bro😀

[Osho Robbins]

@Arjuna

Let me address the several points you have raised.

Firstly I am not a follower of RSSB. I used to be a speaker at one time. I also used to believe in the teachings in my early years, I was actively trying to get to Sach Khand as I thought it was a place (a spiritual place not a physical place - but a place nevertheless).
I also had ideas about meeting the radiant form of the master and then going with him (in my soul-body) to the higher regions until he finally presents me to Sat Purush.

Now I can see these are all concepts. But understand that back in the 80's nobody used words like "these are concepts and not literal"

It is only GSD who made this clear. Back then, just about everyone was actively trying to get to Sach Khand.

The satsangs also described how your will leave your body and arrive in the first region, where you will meet the radiant form of the master.

There was no question of the master not coming at death.

Rather the total opposite.

Sawan Singh was even famous for saying "I will just wave from a distance to the guru who is not coming at my death"

So the teachings have gone through a clear change.

For some strange reason, believers seem to think I am against the RSSB teachings or against RSSB when I am simply pointing out the obvious.

I am not against either.

Just as in this article I am not against anything.

Vinny is acting like I have attacked him personally.

I have merely shared some ideas. I don't understand why anyone would go mental over this? and call me a blasphemer.

I actually still go to RSSB satsangs when I want to, I enjoy conversing with GSD on the mic. I find it interesting that he makes such clear statements and the
disciples don't get it.

I am not against him. There are obviously some difficult times ahead with possible financial dealings. But I take him as a human being, and these things happen. People fall out. Happens with all humans.

I think he is doing his best. I do have admiration for him for making a stand against the old teachings and introducing the new. It's risky. It's easier to carry on as before.

Some people are actively against him, but I see a man doing his best. He teaches people to do the best they can.

[Arjuna]

@ Osho - hello

That’s a good response and I do like your mindset.

We all use our own mind and concepts to think what happens after death but I don’t harbour any thoughts that master will come.

I just hope Kal doesn’t come ha.

[Arjuna]

@ Osho - I agree - no one should be attacked by anyone on here .

Christians are not gods who came up with physics - even Guru Nanak stated that there are planets beyond planets etc. Before the western scientists and remind me ?? Did not the crusaders try and destroy algebra and advanced maths in the crusades against Moslems.

[Vinny]

Let this be very clear I am a believer in God and his Saints of every religion. I have no special affinity with RSSB. There was a time when I used to go to RSSB satsangs but the people there were behaving like idiots. They had no empathy for poor people and were not showing even a single sign of believer in their behavior or manners. I think they were not even vegetarians but they were pretending to be vegetarians. Then I started studying religious texts of Swamiji Mahraj, Jesus, Christian saints and due to my intense love for Physics I was living like a monk in a seminary by doing vigorous research in Physics and love for God in my heart. Then the secrets of advanced Physics became obvious after years of studying things and living life as believer. My conclusion after observing the world after living ascetic life is that three breeds have become very cunning hindus/moslems/sikhs. There are internal contradictions in their beliefs and actions, they are bastards. These cunning breeds will never be able to understand the secrets of divine energy. They will remain slaves of Christian dominance in world. Their fate is sealed. They don't have the intellect to understand those secrets even in next 1000 years. As a believer in Christ, I will not reveal any secret to people from three breeds hindus/moslems and sikhs. They will remain as slaves of Christ conscious people, that fate is sealed by Second Coming of Jesus. Hazur Baba Sawan Singh also told Ishwar Puri that America will become axis of spirituality and that is manifesting with every passing day

[Vinny]

These cunning breeds of hindus/moslems and sikhs think that by making few missiles they have become equal to Christians. They are living in fool's paradise. Advanced weapons of Christian Innovators are so dangerous these missiles of asian bastards will explode in their own land killing their own people. Because these advanced weapons utilize the matrix of higher mind / Divine mind of energy governing this Physical Universe.

[Spence Tepper]

Hi Osho
You wrote
"Many religions believe that the ‘soul’ (or some equivalent) goes to a certain ‘place’ after death; either a heaven or a hell. They also believe in the concept of a ‘being’ that is in charge of that place (God or the Devil, respectively).

However, they cannot see the absurdity of all this, until an actual example is put before them – then they will laugh and say something like, “Oh, it’s not a place and God is not a person.”

This is a critical commentary. Your questions are rhetorical and start with an assertion that spiritual tenets are absurd. That's not exploratory, but accusatory.

Yes you have assumed a critical position. And your comments preoccupied the basis for your critique.

Own it. You and Brian have taken the position of Anti-theist.

There is nothing to be ashamed of, except lack of intellectual honesty.

If you don't believe in the regions of heaven you are certainly not alone. Many don't hold such beliefs.

But if you elect to call such beliefs absurd and wrong, please own the critical views you are stating: Anti-theism.

[Jen]

So tired of the 'God' word, also 'devil', but having said that why bother with getting upset at people and their beliefs, which probably help a lot for those who have very difficult lives to contend with. Its easy to sit back as an armchair critic for those who have comfortable life styles.

I like to believe in spirituality, inner regions, where one day my soul will fly and have wondrous experiences. Keeps me going in this boring painful earthly life.

Sure, life can be illusionary, but try a little compassion guys, life can also be extremely difficult for some.

[777]

Vinny
Big Bang is just a little bit
Innumeral are floating in the astral time_space

Myriads of astrals float in the causal
as snow flocks in Alaska

The number of causals is colossal
. . and that is not even the beginning
all is of your making

[Vinny]

To rub salt on the wounds of Asian monkeys. I'm giving them a clue there are few Churches in America and England which use Divine Energy,even taking the work of electricity from it without taking any electricity from government grid or solar cell or wind mill. I know that these Asian monkeys will never be able to find out even in next 1000 years how Divine Energy can replace electricity

[Osho Robbins]

@Spence

My position is not critical. I am not against. I am simply exploring the possibility of what happens when a soul goes to Sach Khand, and the concepts people have.

Yes, I am stating that in my opinion, my account is absurd. But then what account would not be absurd.

I would invite anyone to give me the correct version of what actually happens.

For example, maybe Sat Purush doesn't drink lemon tea.

Maybe he doesn't swear.

I have just given a fictional account of one version. I am not criticizing any position. I am not against any position.

I would have thought that some person who goes there regularly would have corrected me and said "there are no mansions there" or whatever.

Have you been there, for example? If so, maybe you can give an account of what actually happens as mine is fictional

[Dungeness]

We all use our own mind and concepts to think what happens after death but I don’t harbour any thoughts that master will come.
I just hope Kal doesn’t come ha.

Hi Arjuna,

Are you referring to GSD's alleged remark that the master
doesn't come for the disciple after death? (Osho might
have first reported it to support a thesis of RSSB Version 2/3.)

That bit of reporting bothered me at first. But, as with all
shocking departures from "true dogma", I think a GIHF's
response targets the individual and can't be generalized.
It certainly can't be posited as the "new RSSB, version 2/3".

It occurs to me too if we don't progress within, then we're
just clinging to blind faith/notions that GIHF will appear at
death and whisk us away to live happily ever after in
Sach Khand. That's the fairy tale of religion.

Sometimes a shakeup is needed. The goal is to realize the
truth before death... not after. Besides, even if GIHF isn't
manifest at death , GIHF never tells a disciple that he
won't be guided/protected within at all times.

RSSB revisionist theories won't change that.

[Osho Robbins]

@Vinny

"My conclusion after observing the world after living ascetic life is that three breeds have become very cunning hindus/moslems/sikhs. There are internal contradictions in their beliefs and actions, they are bastards. These cunning breeds will never be able to understand the secrets of divine energy."

Are you saying that ALL moslems, hindus and Sikhs have become "Cunning"?
Has anyone else had this same observation?
Have you met them all?
If I could show you just ONE Sikh who was not cunning, your statement would become invalid.
and what do you mean by "cunning" - does it have some special meaning for you?
There are contradictions in the actions and beliefs of many people. Doesn't make them "cunning" or bastards

That is a very dangerous beliefs to hold about others. It will alienate you from a lot of people.

[Brian Hines]

Arjuna, read Stephen Hawking's last book. I've read the chapter dealing with what happens inside black holes. Science has some good understandings, based on quantum mechanics and relativity theory, about what occurs there. Naturally these are based on mathematics and the known laws of nature, since nothing escapes from black holes, except, likely, some short-lived virtual particles called "Hawking radiation," since he was the first to recognize that they would be emitted from black holes.

[Brian Hines]

Spence, you've become fond of using the term anti-theist. But this makes no sense. Everyone who is pro-something is anti-not-that-something.

I like coffee. I just ordered a latte, and am about to drink it in a coffee shop. If somehow lattes weren't available, as happened for a while last summer when the City of Salem water system was infected with toxic algae, I was disappointed. I wanted coffee, and I was disappointed when I couldn't get it.

Or take global warming. I believe it is happening, and I believe we humans need to do something about it, because it threatens the habitability of our planet for our species.

I often criticize deniers of global warming for their failure to recognize scientific facts, and their political implications. So my positive belief in global warming leads me to a negative reaction when global warming deniers spew lies and falsehoods.

Likewise, Osho Robbins has a positive view of spirituality: oneness. He is adept at pointing out the falsities, or at least logical contradictions, as people who believe in Sach Khand/Heaven, a personal God, and such. This flows naturally from his positive view. Robbins didn't start out saying "I'll bash those stupid satsangis."

For one thing, he was one, and it appears that he still considers himself to be one.

In the same vein, I'm still deeply committed to understanding the truth about the cosmos. I still meditate every day. I'm still a vegetarian. I'm still "spiritual," albeit in a non-religious sense. I'm only anti-religion in so far as I see religion spreading falsehoods about the cosmos, in the same way I'm only anti-global-warming-deniers in so far as they spread falsehoods about the Earth's climate.

I'll also point out that by your logic, you aren't a believer in God but rather an anti-atheist, because you like to challenge atheists like me. Does this really describe you? If not, then acknowledge that just like you, I and Osho Robbins also are motivated by positive views of reality.

[Jen]

Brian, have you ever put yourself in someone else's shoes, for example imagining what it is like to be a homeless person, or a very poor 'untouchable' in India. Its easy to be critical when living a relatively easy lifestyle even though we all have suffering but some people have a lot more suffering than others. My way of dealing with suffering is the Zen way but its still difficult to be at peace in a chaotic world.

If there is no such thing as reincarnation and karma, the inequality in this world does not make sense. If there is no creator God or malevolent god (Kal) and no such thing as karma, why is this world so divisive and unjust.

[Spence Tepper]

Hi Brian
Please re read my comment. Whether Osho or you are Atheists or not has little to do with your post and his comments, which take issue with the tenets of other beliefs including belief in heaven and a personal God.

That is anti-theist.

Nothing wrong with it. But let's not pretend it is benign atheism.

[Brian Hines]

Jen, I do this all the time. I have a chronic health condition that came on suddenly. It caused me to become seriously depressed about a year ago. My mother struggled with alcoholism for much of her life. I'm active in my town's politics, and also with state and national politics.

I'm very familiar with suffering. I relate to those who suffer. But I strongly disagree with your belief that the suffering of people is due to their past lives/karma. This strikes me as uncompassionate.

The Buddha spoke of those who, if I recall somewhat correctly, wanted to know the cause of someone's injury before helping with the problem. This was viewed by the Buddha as absurd. What we should do is try to help others as much as we can, not judge them because of an absurd belief in past lives and bad karma.

[Brian Hines]

Spence, please read my comment again. What I said is quite different from what you wrongly believe I said.

What I said is that Robbins and I have positive views of the cosmos. Those views lead us to criticize those who hold illogical and seemingly demonstrably false views of the cosmos, because those false views aren't benign (American politics is full of examples of the dangers of Christian fundamentalism, as is Indian politics).

Don't you see that every time you criticize me and Robbins you are supporting my point of view? I could say you are anti-atheist, but I don't do this. Rather, I recognize that your fervently held religious beliefs lead you to defend them, which comes across as anti-atheist, but really isn't, since I consider that your comments flow from a positive motivation.

So why can't you believe that Robbins and i are motivated in the same fashion, by positive motivations, not negative ones?

[JB]

I'm not sure of what value the concept of "oneness" has for humanity. Oneness (nonseparation, non-duality) cannot be experienced. Anything that cannot be experienced directly will have limited impact, as it will always remain conceptual.

Not to say that it isn't true from a cosmological perspective. Theoretically, we are all that one singular "point" that became the universe. But we don't live at the level, just as we don't live at the quantum mechanical level.

Furthermore, being "One" doesn't confer any special benefits, as the purveyors of oneness admit that you already are one. It doesn't end or even ease suffering. It doesn't change anything. You cannot become what you already are.

In terms of utility, I find it to be just another empty religious concept.

[Spence Tepper]

Hi Brian

The remarks that Osho wrote in the post you created, and which you support, are decidedly negative to theistic views that involve God and Heaven.

Osho wrote
"It’s fantasy land. You cannot become the ONE and remain separate. There cannot be more than one ONE!"

And he called belief in a heavenly region "absurd."

It's one thing to offer your system of belief. That is, your form of theism, or philosophical version of Atheism, or alternate theology or spiritual beliefs or practices.

But what we have here are critical statements about beliefs that differ from your own.

That's anti - theism. Anti - theism does not require you to believe in God or not.

Anti - theism is the view that beliefs in God, or their practice are either false, or if not false, then they are simply bad.

The content of your post consists of remarks about other faiths and the conclusion these are false.

As for oneness, it cannot be defined by what is wrong with some other belief.

Why not make a purely positive expose about just what oneness is, in your eyes?

Or continue to hold negative views about other people's beliefs. There isn't anything wrong with that either so long as you leave off derogatory names. And if you feel the logic is wrong, understand that all logic rests upon accepted premeses, and can go no further except by conjecture. So what was once considered fantastic and absurd is actually now part of our daily life and very much a reality, like flying tens of thousands of feet in the air over thousands of miles to get to work, or using my GPS to guide me to my destination, or my cell phone to speak to colleagues live over thousands of miles away.

All these things would have been considered absurd two hundred years ago because even the notion of the physics involved was not understood.

Today at hardly understand the mind and the brain. We know some things, but so much we don't.

We know a few things about matter, but science admits it knows less than half of what can be known because it can obit conjecture about dark matter.

[JB]

Oneness is an abstraction. Anything can be one, depending on how far you cast the net of inclusion: one planet, one universe, one multiverse?

It is likely that the concept was originally seized upon by those that found security in its premise. People want to identify with "oneness" because that oneness is thought to be more resilient than they are.

"Oneness" is just another version of God.

Its abstractness, poetic vagueness and non-anthropomorphism just make it seem more respectable.

[JB]

Osho: "The path is about REALIZATION, not about getting anywhere as there is nowhere to get..."

Realizing what?

[Osho Robbins]

@Spence:

Whether Osho or you are Atheists or not has little to do with your post and his comments, which take issue with the tenets of other beliefs including belief in heaven and a personal God.

That is anti-theist.

I don't take issue with anyone's beliefs. I am not saying anything about their beliefs. I am not saying their beliefs are "wrong"

I am inviting people who hold such beliefs to see where they lead. If they are happy with where they lead - it's cool. All I have done is create a fictional account of what might happen if I meditate and get to Sach Khand. I a not saying there is no Sach Khand. Maybe there is. I am having a comical look at the whole thing.

Thats why in my fictional account Anami swears a lot. Just for laughs. I am playing around with ideas.
You are welcome to make of it what you want. However, I know my position, which is "each to their own". I am not a crusader of "there is no god"
I don't hold any particular beliefs about God. I even joked about God being an Athiest in the video.

The question is: is my account absurd? If it is, then what is the true version of what happens when you get to Sach Khand? That is the point.

Does Sat Purush have a form?

Is there a Sach Khand? Is it divided into three sections?

What happens there?

If you don't buy into the idea of oneness, then clearly there must be some such scenario going on there. My question is: what is it.

I am not making any statements, I clearly stated that this is pure fiction that I have created and fiction should not offend anyone.

While you might think you know my position, you are only assuming, and I am making it clear that I am not saying there is no God. I am most certainly not against anyone who chooses to believe in a God.
However, II am exploring the meaning of that God. The conclusions are for each to make for themselves.

[Osho Robbins]

@Spence
I have made an "absurd" fictional account of what happens when a soul gets to Sach Khand and all is not as it seems. I have created mansions there, even cars, and women too.
Of course all this is absurd. I am making it absurd on purpose.

So you can counter this with a non-absurd version. If you can please do so.
Maybe you don't think the fiction I created was actually absurd. Maybe I can order a 70 bedroom mansion there.

I am simply playing with the ideas. If anyone on this blog (777 or yourself) claim to have personal experience of going to those regions, you are welcome to shed light on the matter.

But nobody has come forward so far.

[Osho Robbins]

@JB
the path is about realization. but what is there to realize?

Ask GSD if you follow his path. He may say to "REALIZE THE ONE" or he may say something else

For me personally it's about the realization that there is nothing except the ONE, and everything else is duality, including you and me and the world we see.

But this is my personal view, I don't care to make it into a religion

[Osho Robbins]

"Oneness" is just another version of God. - JB

yes - oneness can be another version of God, but it would be a different god, a useless god, and a pointless god, and a God who does nothing all day long (and all night)
The ONENESS god has no commandments, and is no all knowing a there is nothing to know.
The ONENESS god has no form so effectively doesn't exist.
So I guess he is an athiest!

[JB]

Osho: "For me personally it's about the realization that there is nothing except the ONE"

How is "the ONE" that you speak of not, as you say, useless and pointless?

And how is "realizing that there is nothing except the ONE" also not useless and pointless?

[Tim Rimmer]

F’n A Osho - great story! Maybe it could be used as a warm up video prior to satsangs? (change the fuck to feck and add a bit of heavy metal?) As the dialogue progressed I found myself thinking that the aspirant who’d ‘arrived’ had a Scottish accent and on meeting Anami Purush said ‘Hey its you Jimmy!’ (Maybe its the bagpipe connection). Likewise I envisioned the Supreme Lord having a voice like Ali G - ‘Okidoki my man I’ll send you one of ma Julies along wiv da rolla .. innit’.:-)

Hail wise Fairy - I like your Buddhist infused comment. That nobody knows what happens to awareness when we die cuts to the core of a lot of this debate and is probably one of the main reasons I continue to meditate - to find out. I remain of the view that its not a lost cause. Maybe a sufficiently evolved AI would be able to completely assess whats happening to consciousness/awareness if it (the AI) had the opportunity to be present and monitoring as a Hi Lama progressed into Thukdam.

JB in regard to some of your comments of late - I find them challenging and clearly stating your point of view. Previously you mentioned that you meditated for 10 years - did you follow any particular path/method? If so what was it?

You say ‘non-separation is unconsciousness, non-experience, and nonexistence’. I see what you are getting at here yet I will pick up on your previous point regarding shall we say degrees of ‘non-separation’? I can certainly attest to the experience of a ‘much reduced’ sense of self, and at the same time interconnection of consciousness. I’ve always viewed this as a ‘non-separation’ experience (quite likely just a wee taste of the ‘what is’) yet this certainly was not ‘unconsciousness’ such as when under anaesthesia.
Further you said in an earlier post ‘no ceasing of thinking (as if that were possible)’. Well I can also attest to the fact that thinking can cease, though admittedly my mind is often more active than still. What happens when thoughts cease? To me that’s what meditation is ultimately about.

Best wishes

[Fairy]

Everything is dependent upon various parts ( particles) to arise or to exist. To come into being. Everything has a dependent orgination. No thing is independent. Quantum entanglement, scientific discoveries, Higgs boson, and so forth, along with the constant new discoveries about existence and non existence better explain The Theory of Everthing than what most religions do. We have better language and understanding now, in modern times. There is no longer a need to speak in parables. The theory of "Emptiness" proves, in my mind if I am understanding correctly, that because ALL that IS in any time, universe, dimension or anywhere else for that matter is dependent upon other factors to arise, there cannot possibly be an independent God. It's probably all just pretending anyway and I still believe in fairies! Oh and love and compassion. These too, are totally dependent states. By the way, it is good that Gurinder is finally telling it how it is. YOU ARE YOUR MASTER. Humans have reached a level in awareness to stop believing in "fairy stories" no matter how satisfying and enjoyable they may be. Read up about quantum entanglement. It is fascinating. I can't begin to understand quantum mechanics, but reading and studying and trying to fathom out what is happening, is far more satisfying than constricting religious dogma. But I do still love a good story. Fairy dust!

[JB]

Brian: "if everything was really One, there wouldn't be anybody who could stand outside of the oneness and say, "This One is absolutely wonderful!"

Osho: "it's about the realization that there is nothing except the ONE, and everything else is duality, including you and me and the world we see."

And this is how it seems to me:

If everything was really One, there wouldn't be anybody who could stand outside of that oneness and say, "it's all about realizing that there is nothing except the One" much less realization or anybody who could go about realizing it.

You seem to see the absurdity of the concept of "Heaven" but don't see the absurdity of the concept of "the ONE" and "Realization".

[777]

OK Osho
When Gurinder answers U, I will too

You hv still a wrong consideration of the " one-ness"

Think totally outside the actual time box

You can be there while participating the rush on next Black Friday
When making love even
and of course in meditation

Meditation is together with learning some habits - It is to save your life !
It's just training to continue to be a human that lives
while the Shabd kills you with its LOVE

Next you are that love and for each person in a different way
That Love will manifest like seeds

A satsangi will not do miracles if not ordered
but I knew a lady who said : "Master if it's good , please when I'm not allowed anymore, Please You do it
and it happened

Meditation is also for recognizing, to get rid of false ideas
to let crash and crush the Ego , a hyper dangerous guy, able to corrupt U again

For learning the necessary patience,
an endless patience
All to prepare for those first 3 seconds, later 3 minutes etc of thoughtless-ness

When there is that, . . ; the Sound can really enter
the Big Sound
before it was sweet - Now it is a Tornado of Love
and you know it was a nanogram

Also the processs of Simran is Mega giga super super important

You or a certain mike placed once the 5 words here with 3 mistakes

Of course for me : a blasphemy even while knowing
that those words given by an ignorant have no power at all

When the RSSB Ultimate happens, It's a gigantic thing
like trillions of orgasmes above the eyes
but
by many exercises it's all so smooth that indeed you can
participate @ Black Friday or be in the brothel
to instruct a Lady

Before, . . . nobody can have a slightest idea
and apart from those who were ment to describe
it's like St Paul Said : No Eye have seen, No Ear has heard
what is already prepared
in fact for every quark in so many Universes

Rssb is only for those who can't resist
who love HIM ( eventual Her ) so much
are in hurry, or designated to hurry
Who are able to let the puppet-Master do his thing

It's really all about Love and Compassion

No cars there but it might come haha. when not polluting
you name it
It's ever changing

All imaginatoiric stuff is UNDER that region that STATE-OF-MIND

there is no Static Purusha, Please forget it
There is only dynamics and it will ever grow and thus change
It "always" did if there was time

Not speaking about disciples even , but if
per Galaxy, One Super Saint was produced,
each astronomer can tell you that that would be colossal in SK

The One November Community of The Saints is . . WAS. THAT

One Saint who really sees and it is GOD in his Master
that Master in His Master and so on and on Up to Abraham's Master Melchisadek
and further on
on

God's Chosen People are those who participate
Nothing to do with politics

Sant Mat is so Immense, be glad to have heard about it
And a Lover will greet His Master at death - be sure
A hater a "little" later

It's all semantics
Nothing has changed since Melchisadek

Radha Soami

777

not corrected

[Osho Robbins]

@JB
let me re-write the previous comment as it had a few letters missed off by mistake

"Oneness" is just another version of God. - JB

yes - oneness can be another version of God, but it would be a different god, a useless god, and a pointless god, and a God who does nothing all day long (and all night)
The ONENESS god has no commandments, and is not all knowing as there is nothing to know.
The ONENESS god has no form so effectively doesn't exist.
So I guess he is an athiest!

let me now carry on:
The reason that a disciple seeks God or truth or oneness or whatever is this:

He wants a personal benefit. For example he wants to go beyond his fear of death. So when a disciples says to his guru, "Will you come at my death?"
he wants to hear the answer "YES" because then he can rest assured that when he dies, the guru will come and take care of his soul.

That's a persona benefit.

The present RSSB master has taken this away. I have ever heard him say
"It is very easy for me to say that the master will come at death, but I don't want to give you false consolation."

He is right.

he can tell you want you want to hear and you are happy.

misguided, but happy in your delusion.

Instead he says "no master can come because there is only the ONE!"

What does "Only the ONE mean?"

It means that there was, is and always will be only the ONE.

So here are some illusions that get shattered if you realize and accept the ONE:

1. That one day you will merge into the ONE
2. That you can meditate and reach the state of ONENESS
3. That reaching the ONE is a great achievement
4. That once I attain the ONE, it's all done and I am at peace
5. That once I attain the ONE, I will no longer be reborn
6. It will be blissful to attain the ONE
7. Once I attain, I will merge into and become the ONE

so here's the reason behind each of the above
1. it will not "happen" and it will not happen "one day" because it is not a happening. It is not an event. It is not that you are separate today and then you will merge one day in the future.
2. meditation cannot take you there because the "YOU" that is meditating is not the one that will attain. The "YOU" that you are aware of cannot attain no matter how much meditation (or anything else) it does, because it is illusory
3. Reaching the ONE is not an attainment because it is already the case. You cannot reach what you already are.
4. WHO is trying to attain peace? That one trying to attain is false so cannot attain. The real has already attained, and doesn't need to strive to attain.
5. the ONE is never reborn. Only the illusory self is born and dies. The illusory self is doomed anyway and cannot be saved. It cannot merge.
6. There is no bliss because WHO will experience the bliss? the illusory self? but it's illusory so the bliss is also illusory
7. You will never attain and you will never merge. The one who will merge is already merged, and that is not the self you know.

ONENESS is not an achievement - not something to attain, not something that requires effort. it is a moment of realizing what is already the case.
Like the Buddha realized nirvana when he stopped trying. Then he say what already was.
He then spent the rest of his life trying to explain the inexplicable utterly failed as all will fail, because there is nothing to explain.

It is pointless because there is no benefit and what has no benefit is what we call useless and pointless. We are always concerned with benefit. Our whole life is about one central theme "What benefit will I get?"
The ONENESS has no benefits. No medals. Enlightenment cannot become a decoration for your ego. You will not attain, so you cannot get the medal.

Confused? of course! because there is nothing to understand about it.
ONENESS is an abstraction if you want to understand it.
If you get that ONENESS simply IS! that is not an abstraction.

ONENESS is not attained. It simply IS. nothing to achieve or attain or reach.

Only issue is that if I write or talk about it - it makes no sense, and it appears like I have been spending too much time in the company of 777 (no offence intended 777)

[JB]

Tim: "I can certainly attest to the experience of a ‘much reduced’ sense of self, and at the same time interconnection of consciousness. I’ve always viewed this as a ‘non-separation’ experience (quite likely just a wee taste of the ‘what is’) yet this certainly was not ‘unconsciousness’ such as when under anaesthesia."

A reduced sense of self, but obviously occuring to an intact and distinct human being with an intact and distinct brain. It represents an anomolous psychological experience not an ontological shift or "peek behind the veil".

Actual non-separation would entail no defined "point-of-perception" as a channel for discrete expedience. There would be no distinction of the "locus" from which perception occurs and what is perceived. In other words, there would be nothing of which to be conscious, and therefore no conscious activity.

Tim: Further you said in an earlier post ‘no ceasing of thinking (as if that were possible)’. Well I can also attest to the fact that thinking can cease, though admittedly my mind is often more active than still. What happens when thoughts cease? To me that’s what meditation is ultimately about."

Thinking is only quieted temporarily.

[JB]

Well, If I may say, "Oneness" and "the One" is just as absurd as all other religious concepts. And I know you'll tell me that it is not a concept.

[Joe]

The real absurdity is harping on about something you can neither prove or disprove. Because you can not prove the existence of sachkhand does not mean it does not exist.

That's the first problem. The second is the frame of reference you use for understanding the meaning of the term is usually sant mat heresay.

Guru Nanak said this:

In the realm of Truth, the Formless Lord abides.
Having created the creation, He watches over it. By His Glance of
Grace, He bestows happiness.
There are planets, solar systems and galaxies.
If one speaks of them, there is no limit, no end.
There are worlds upon worlds of His Creation.

Based on this, sachkhand is a state of union with the formless spirit. But is it also a place? Of course it is also a place; a place where your form is absent but you still are. You have to reside somewhere. Is it a place that is everywhere? Perhaps, as a sub-stratum of the whole kosmos, but that still means your address is not here, as we typically understand a "place" to be.

[Joe]

Here is a non-sant mat explanation of the same thing referred to with the term "sachkhand." Yogis and shamans all talk about the same thing, just differently:

Death happens when the breath stops. The physical body no longer has any power to move or to grow, and it begins to decay. The subtle consciousness of the soul begins to separate from the physical body. But for the first 3-4 days, the consciousness can "hang out" around the body. It may have some kind of attachment still - to the body and to the life.

In either event, the subtle consciousness maintains a connection to the physical body in those first few days. This is why, in the Sikh tradition, we cremate the body and chant Akal. To help the soul let go of its attachment to the physical life it had and to be willing to move on.

The next part of the 17 days, the soul has to cross the electromagnetic field of the earth and begin its journey into the realm of the Blue Ethers. There are four levels of the blue ethers before one experiences absolute and perfect Union with the Divine. Those who have a spiritual teacher or guide get help at this point.

The first blue ether is where the assessment takes place. What were you sent for? How did you do? We all judge ourselves instantly at the time of death. The first blue ether allows a soul a chance to really sit and re-evaluate. In fact, if there are lessons that did not get finished during life, the soul has a chance, during the 17 days, to complete those lessons under his or her spiritual guide. This completion of the lessons takes place either in the first or second blue ether, depending on the ripeness of the soul. In the first blue ether, the soul can purify itself. In the second blue ether, it can continue to get deeper learning.

If the soul graduates to the second blue ether, it also has a chance to become a guide for other souls. It can reach out from that place and help others.

The third blue ether is the most refined ether that the human being can access while alive. Deep meditation can open us up to the third blue ether. The third blue ether is the realm of the master and the angel. So while alive, people who develop the consciousness of a master or an angel have penetrated through to the third blue ether with their meditative mind.

In the process of death, such a soul could navigate those first two ethers fairly easily during the 17 days, and may end up at the third blue ether if it has truly completed all its lessons. The third blue ether is the realm of the realized, enlightened soul. A soul who can reach out and touch other souls to guide them in the past, present or future. A soul that graduates to the third blue ether has a choice to make. That soul can decide to reincarnate again - for the purpose of serving humanity. Or it can chose to go onto the fourth blue ether and just be Pure Radiance. But such a soul will never reincarnate on earth again once it enters the fourth blue ether.

The fourth blue ether is reserved for those incredible amazing Lights that guide humanity with their pure radiance. These souls will never take form again. But their consciousness is so clear and so realized, that they radiate from the fourth blue ether across the centuries giving guidance, hope and love to humanity.

After the fourth blue ether, there is just Pure Union. No separation. Absolute Oneness. And that is the end of the soul's journey across time and space.

[JB]

As long as we are destroying religious illusions:

If there is just "the ONE", there would be nothing. In fact, "the ONE" would be a literal NOTHING.

There would be no experience at all, not even "illusory" experiences, as there would be nothing to generate illusion and nothing to experience the illusion.

There would be no illusory selves, no illusory experiences, no illusory selves with illusory concepts of an illusory "the ONE" or anything else.

There would be nothing.

And there would be nothing to comment on the nothing.

[Fairy]

Rupert Spira is really good on You Tube. Short discourses and to the point. Vedic stuff I think, and thought provoking. Professor Puri discourses, in my opinion, are far too long. Also, His Holiness the Dalai Lama visited the Dera some years back. Watch his discussion on Quantum Physics with the world's foremost scientists. Meditation is a beautiful thing to do. Changes in awareness do happen and can occur. I must do more, rather than sitting in the sun for hours and gazing and just blissing out doing absolutely nothing. How lucky am I? Here are some very apt quotes, " Do not think about the thinkable. Do not think about the unthinkable. By
thinking about neither the thinkable nor the unthinkable you will see voidness". Je Gampopa, 1079-1153 ce.
"You shalt not separate your being from the rest, but merge the ocean within the drop, the drop within the ocean". Tibetan Buddhist Teaching (My take on this is interdependence and/ or a hologram).
"But if there is no other world, no fruit and ripening of actions, then here, now, in this life, I shall be free from hostility, affliction and anxiety, and shall live happily." "There is no path to happiness, hapiness is the path."Shakyamuni Buddha, c563-483 BCE.

Fairy Dust!

[Spence Tepper]

Hi Osho

In order to promote your views you have chosen to characterize in an exaggerated and negative way the beliefs of others. That's a negative critique of other's beliefs.

Your understanding of what you think GSD said and meant is repeatedly cited by you to support your criticism of the past writings of the mystics.

The very fact that you cannot see the negativity in your comments towards Sant Mat, including what is written in its texts, and insist you are not disparaging towards those beliefs is very telling.

Yes, you have taken an anti - theist perspective and as a result your argument in favor of Oneness is fatally undermined.

You will have to decide what you want to do first, criticize Sant Mat, or promote Oneness. You can't do both very well. That isn't, actually oneness. But it is anti - theism.

And let me repeat for the third time, Anti-Theism has a lot of credibility. But it demands intellectual honesty.

As for experience within, several posters have, including yours truly, shared some of their experiences to confirm the existence, at least in experience, of the regions. Your unwillingness to acknowledge those reports does not support your claims of open minded and balanced thinking.

Maharaji said that God is not a personality but a power. You have failed to depict this teaching.

Alak, Agam and Anami are beyond description. This was discussed earlier.

So long as your mind has its own impressions, it will not be "one" with anything but itself.

Burn the impressions and all that is left is One. That's Sant Mat.

You missed that teaching somewhere.

Of course you can't to understand what you haven't experienced. No one expects that. But you are most able to acknowledge the mystery of what you don't know.

For me, that has been the first step. And I find I must take it again several times a day. Try it. You might be pleasantly surprised.

[Osho Robbins]

@JB

If everything was really One, there wouldn't be anybody who could stand outside of that oneness and say, "it's all about realizing that there is nothing except the One" much less realization or anybody who could go about realizing it.

You seem to see the absurdity of the concept of "Heaven" but don't see the absurdity of the concept of "the ONE" and "Realization". - - JB

You are correct - and there isn't anyone. Nobody can stand outside and nobody can realize.
The person claiming to stand outside and the one claiming to realize is the illusion.

No PERSON can realise the one - that is what I mean when I say it cannot be attained.

hence the famous saying
"Those who claim to have attained have not attained"

The "I" who claims is part of the delusion. Only the ONE is true and it has no attributes and cannot be seen or attained as a separate thing.

Of course I see the absurdity of the ONE - the ONE is the root of absurdity.
In fact you have to embrace absurdity to realize the ONE.

[JB]

No, you aren't getting it.

There wouldn't even be the illusion of someone. There wouldn't even be the illusion of someone typing in messages on a blog comments section.

Even illusion and delusion are something.

Absolute Oneness would be and must be NOTHING.

[Osho Robbins]

@JB

As long as we are destroying religious illusions:
If there is just "the ONE", there would be nothing. In fact, "the ONE" would be a literal NOTHING.
There would be no experience at all, not even "illusory" experiences, as there would be nothing to generate illusion and nothing to experience the illusion.
There would be no illusory selves, no illusory experiences, no illusory selves with illusory concepts of an illusory "the ONE" or anything else.
There would be nothing.
And there would be nothing to comment on the nothing. - JB

ONE means that nothing else except the one exists. Only the ONE exists.
So if you and I appear to exist - it is just appearance, not REAL.

So REAL can only be defined as the ONE, all else is UNREAL.

So what you see - all phenomena, and all you experience, and what you see in meditation etc ALL OF IT is all part of the UNREAL.

So then what is REAL? REAL is what you CANNOT SEE or experience - that which is OUTSIDE of time and space. This really means NOTHING.

The UNREAL cannot experience the REAL - as they are different paradigms. So the idea of trying to reach the ONE is absurd.

So instead it is a REALIZATION. An awakening. A moment of suddenly seeing the obvious.

Once you realize - all the questions disappear and the answers are obvious. But not to anyone else.

There would be no experience at all, not even "illusory" experiences, as there would be nothing to generate illusion and nothing to experience the illusion. - JB

illusion will continue as it is part of the unreal. But it is not part of the REAL.

There would be no illusory selves, no illusory experiences, no illusory selves with illusory concepts of an illusory "the ONE" or anything else.

The illusory self would continue.

When you go to sleep - and dream, what happens? You enter a world of illusion. It has nothing to do with reality. The reality is - you are sleeping on the bed.

Yet the UNREAL (the dream) appears to be real. You are completely immersed in the dream and consider it to be real. But really nothing is happening. It doesnt matter what happens in the dream state as it's unreal.

Then you awaken and now you realize it was all UNREAL. and the unreal has no effect on the real.

Once you awaken, only then you understand it was all a dream.

It is the same analogy as the ONE. The two are mutually exclusive.
In the ONENESS - nothing happens - there is no phenomena, no time and no space.

but here there is time and space. everything within time and space is unreal.

everything that changes (within time and space) is the unreal. It will end, just as it began.

But the REAL has no beginning and no end. it is changeless. it is the ONE.

that is what guru nanak is describing in the Japji, nothing more.

Aad Sach, jugaad Sach etc. Sach is used an a Synonym for the REAL.
WAS, IS and ALWAYS WILL BE is the same as saying beyond TIME.

It cannot be a place and there cannot be anything else there except the ONE.

rantings of a mad man? maybe.
That is all the spiritual journey is - to realize the ONE.
but it's not an experience because an experience is within time and space.

[JB]

Osho: "rantings of a mad man?"

Holy shit, yes.

[Arjuna]

@ Dungeness- hello . Hope you are well.

Ref master not coming at death above - I agree with the concept (love that word) that sometimes the master will respond to the individual.

Oh dear - for that unfortunate soul. A guy at Haynes once was getting very hairy with master - about some topic.

Master I think replied “be careful before He (pointing up) sends his dogs after you”. Dogs don’t necessarily mean demons (even though they do come for some) and being an athiest doesn’t protect you from them. Dogs could be bad karma manifesting. Just my take on it.

@ JB - have you been out with friends recently? For a meal or a movie. Don’t delive too deep into questions no one can answer for you on here. It’s not healthy 😀. You sound like a nice person - sometimes it’s best to give the mind a rest. Have a good day

[Dungeness]

There was no question of the master not coming at death.
Rather the total opposite.
Sawan Singh was even famous for saying "I will just wave from a distance to the guru who is not coming at my death"
So the teachings have gone through a clear change

Hello Osho,

As mentioned in another comment, in my opinion,
there's been no drift in Sant Mat teachings. Many
have noted contradictory answers/advice given
by all Masters.

If GSD said "Master is not coming at death", his
answer was intended for the questioner. It was
targeting him/her specifically. It didn't and
doesn't signal some change in the teachings.
It can't be generalized. It's not the "new RSSB,
version 2/3".

GSD's answer obviously was meant to shake us
up. If we don't progress within, then we're just
clinging to blind faith or notions that GIHF will
appear at death like clockwork and whisk us
away to live happily ever. That's the fairy tale
of religion. Your Sach Khand Express Train.

Besides, there's another reality to stabilize the
shock and awe of GSD's bombshell. Even if
GIHF isn't manifest at death, the Master guides
and protects a disciple within at all times. That
will never change. No revisionist spin can make
me doubt it.

[Jen]

JB: "There would be nothing.
And there would be nothing to comment on the nothing."

LOL

I'm so happy to have dropped all my beliefs and all that striving to be perfect and wanting to find Sach Khand and the inner regions and all that crapola.

I absolutely loved Osho's Sach Khand video. Made me question why are satsangis so serious and all this talk about Oneness. Heck, I am so over that, a tiny drop merging in the ocean. Nope, its another life for me, that ocean stuff sounds so very boring :)

[Dungeness]

Master I think replied “be careful before He (pointing up) sends his dogs after you”. Dogs don’t necessarily mean demons (even though they do come for some) and being an athiest doesn’t protect you from them. Dogs could be bad karma manifesting. Just my take on it.

Hi Arjuna,

Every time my thinking gets tangled up, I find myself
thinking about dogs now :)

https://duckduckgo.com/?q=who+let+the+dogs+out&atb=v95-6_f&ia=videos&iax=videos&iai=Qkuu0Lwb5EM

[Vinny]

Sufi Poetry for crooked atheists to rub salt on their wounds

Rind jo mujhko samjhtey hein unhey hosh nahin
Mehkada saaz hoon mein mehkada bardosh nahin

Connotation: The atheists in their intoxication of atheism started thinking that they are owners and theists are waiters of tavern. But these atheists were living in illusion as the theists were constantly expanding their horizons of secret knowledge of Physics/ Divine Energy/ Atomic energy which can even be used for destruction of this earth by even more innovative ways by using matrix of higher mind made up of energy. So these crooked atheists who were full of takabbur/arrogance have been reduced to waiters of the tavern. Today they have kind of knowledge which even the waiters of any tavern spit on. These atheists today are not even worthy of becoming waiters of tavern ruled by Christ Conscious Innovators

[Osho Robbins]

Hi Dungeness
I will take your comments one at a time.
You wrote:

"As mentioned in another comment, in my opinion, there's been no drift in Sant Mat teachings. Many have noted contradictory answers/advice given by all Masters.If GSD said "Master is not coming at death", his answer was intended for the questioner. It was targeting him/her specifically. It didn't and doesn't signal some change in the teachings. It can't be generalized. It's not the "new RSSB, version 2/3".

Nice idea but it simply does not hold water for a number of reasons.
Firstly the question is not, "Hey master, will you come at MY death?"
The question has been asked by many. One person asked in this way
"Master, Please do not break our heart by saying you are not coming at the time of death."

GSD's Answer: "Please try to understand what I am saying. There is only the ONE! So how can the ONE come to get the ONE and where will he take him?"

This is a very clear answer that the notion of coming at death is a duality notion, and not true.

Another person asked: "Sawan Singh said that the guru who will not come at death, I will not honour such a guru and will just wave to him from a distance..."

GSD: "Then wave to me from a distance..."

Again very clear.

He has also stated very clearly that "There are no regions. It was just a way of explaining and people have taken it literally. The story of Kal standing on one leg was just a story, and not literally true."

I also asked him on a few occasions, "So there is not KAL?" his answer: "No"
"and also no Dayal?" his reply: "No Dayal"

I think that is pretty clear. and these are not replies reserved only for me.

your next comment:

GSD's answer obviously was meant to shake us up. If we don't progress within, then we're just
clinging to blind faith or notions that GIHF will appear at death like clockwork and whisk us away to live happily ever. That's the fairy tale of religion. Your Sach Khand Express Train.

You have to actually listen to what he is saying, only then will you hear his message.
One person asked him about the inner stars and inner sky.
His reply: "If someone hits you on the head very hard, it is said that you will see stars. Those are the same stars you will see in meditation"

Last time when I had that 15 minute dialogue with him, he pretty much agreed with everything I was saying. I mentioned that I used to think Sach khand was a place and used to think what it would be like to meet Sat Purush and now I find he doesn;t even exist!

His reply was very clear: "I could have told you that there are no regions and there is no Sat Purush. I have never even read Sar Bachan. It is just a story"

Like I have mentioned quite a few times, this is not a one off.

If he was just trying to shake us, he could say, "The master will only come if you do a lot of meditation."

Besides, there's another reality to stabilize the shock and awe of GSD's bombshell. Even if
GIHF isn't manifest at death, the Master guides and protects a disciple within at all times. That
will never change. No revisionist spin can make me doubt it."

Sorry but that also does not hold water as it goes directly against the first statement. It's just another way of saying the master will come at death, because if he is with you at ALL TIMES, that obviously includes death (and most likely especially death as that is the one time you really need him!)
That would make his statement, "I'm not coming at death, but I am with you always"

He often quotes Paltu
"Paltu Ikoi Ikk hai, dusar nahin koi" which translates to
"Oh Paltu, there is only the ONE. There is no other."

It cannot be any clearer.

He has also said many times "I can easily say that the master comes at the time of death, but I will not give you false consolation."

Very very clear. The new version of sant mat is NOT my investion and I have no reason to invest a new version. That would be very irresponsible and dishonest of me to invent a new version and then attribute it to him. Why the heck would I do that? For what reason would I lead so many people astray? Am I a secret agent for Kal? (who incidently does not exist)

[Osho Robbins]

Jen,

wouldn't it be cool if there were two doors after death.

Door 1: Back to earth as a human to try again

Door 2: Into the ONENESS - disappear forever into the oneness and into oblivion.

and you get 10 seconds o choose - or you get thrown overboard into the sea of nothingness

Just relax - you've got the right idea

[Jim Sutherland]

@Osho,......
Here is my take on Advaita Vedanta Oneness Teachings. ( with out the profanity,) . Advaita Vedanta Teachers who follow Ramana, Niz, etc., teachings of “ I AM THAT” , have decided that they were GOD. Of course, no one has ever been able to exactly WHO, or WHAT God is, other than ultimately beginnig and ending in Awareness or Consciousness. God has been described as the Ocean, Fire, Light, by Mystics , who claim to be One and the Same. I have never subscribed to such and egotistic belief system, because,.........

“i” am NOT God! I never was, am not now, and never will be!

“i” am not a drop of the Ocean, WHO IS God. “i” am a creation of God, The Ocean, that unlike God, Who had no beginning, Alpha, nor will have no end, Omega, HAS had a beginning, when God, the Ocean , created “me”, the Soul that now temporarily manifests as the identity of Jim Sutherland.

That created Soul, had a beginning, but it has no end. It is now Eternal since creation, but has, and will continue to manifest through unending multitudes of impermanent, changing, Vehicles of Consciousness , using Containers, manifesting in The Wheel of 84, or The Hindu Charausi, i.e. 8,400,000 possible physical Species in the Universe.

The Created Soul that has manifested and lived in The Wheel of 84 since being created by God, from Amoebas to the present Container Temple of Jim Sutherland, and will continue to manifest in future unknown Containers, for Eternity, is unknown by “me”, the soul , and is only known by The Creator, Who is Christ, Who is also known by other Names and Identities, such as Anami Purush,
Radhasoami, God, The Holy Spirit, Source, Universe, etc, with a List that is unending, depending on individual imagination.

“i”, the Soul presently manifesting as Jim, will NEVER completely merge with God, or become a completely dissolved drop merging back to the Ocean, as Vedanta Advaitist teachers mistakingly teach, because “i” was never the Ocean, or God. “i” was only an individual creation by God, that became a drop in the Mind of God, as Kal was also created by God, to become Universal Mind, or the Hindu Brahm, the Agent of ALL minds, including not only mine, but every mind in The Wheel of 84, Charausi! Kal is the Prison Warden that has been created by GOD to incarcerate all souls created that have been Projected to the Matrix of TIME.

Any Drop that completely merges in to the Ocean, is annihilated, as far as individual Duality is concerned, and commits Spiritual suicide by claiming to be God in human form!

No doubt, God is in all of us, as Christ, and We are in Him, but will always remain in Duality for Eternity as created Individual souls have lived in Charausi , progressing to present, with out ever being sentenced to Annihilation by God , as drops merging completely back to the Ocean.

God has a Chain of Command He uses to draw his created souls back to the Cradle of Creation, where they may enjoy His Ocean of Glory, with out annihilating their Duality.

Spiritual Seekers are those created souls who have tired of experiencing the adventures in the Play of Consciousness, and are becoming detached from the impermanent enticements of the Sensory pleasures of the material world of Duality.

But, escaping the world of Duality, permanently, with out being annihilated, as taught by Vedanta Advaitists, is impossible, because according to the Bible, only God Alone knows all the secrets, and the Prophets, Masters, Avatars, only know the secrets God reveals to each of them, in Duality, as individuals.

If this is not so, there would be no secrets, and we would all know each other's thoughts and desires, actions, histories, since bring created, and we don’t, NONE of us, including Masters, Teachers, Avatars, Saviors or Mediums.

I consider “my” self, as the present culmination of all of the same Soul that has lived numerous past lives in Charausi since being created by God , a projection of my Higher Soul Self, that is now a Multidimensional Consciousness, with the present identity of Jim Sutherland, now in Duality, as having started in Duality at the time “i” was created by Christ, The WORD made flesh of John 1:1, i.e. God.

“I” will Eternally remain in Duality, as long as Consciousness of awareness is retained, but have been given the Keys of Knowledge , which is the Technique of The Science of The Soul, which may be used to escape the horrors and suffering of Charausi , when ever “i” choose to use the Prescription administered by Master to temporarily rest in the Glory of Bliss of Samadhi in Anami.

Drops never completely merge in to the Ocean with out becoming annihilated.

But, Drops may sail on The Ocean , enjoying the Sights, Sounds, Lights, Bliss, by taking refuge on various Cruise ships, which are Masters of various Lineages , or Cruise lines.

The Masters are the Cruise Ships escorting Spiritual Seekers on Adventures enjoyed and experienced ON, the Ocean, but not IN the Ocean, unless those souls manifesting in human forms desire to become souls in Aquatic Sea living forms.

Individual Saints, or Spiritual Seekers, on individual Paths of Duality, seek God by sailing the God Ocean only by sailing on the Surface , in various mixtures of Material/Spiritual Life Support Vehicles such ad Kayaks, Canoes, Rafts, Yachts, etc.

But Masters, are the Cruise Ships, that escort and ferry Seeker Souls through the Multidimensional Planes of Consciousness on the Ocean of Christ.

I consider my self, the soul that is acting as Jim, to be a Booking Agent, for all Spiritual Masters escorting and ferrying Spiritual Seekers to experience the adventures on the Ocean of Christ, i.e. The Hope of GLORY!

My Booking Fees are FREE, as my payment and rewards from Christ are held in Trust for me, in The Book of Life, Archived in the Highest Pinocle of Causal Mind, where the Avatars of Christ all reside together and Eternally remain to carry out the Plans of God.

Kal, i.e. Satan, is God’s created Agent of Time, in Duality, who is the Annihilatior of all souls who seek to venture in to the Ocean , as drops are obviously, timeless, individual creations that sail and ride the Ocean of Christ . Kal’s Agents are human Battle Ships, Submarines, loaded with poisonous demolition propaganda, used to annihilate Souls in Duality , that have ventured from Heaven/ Paradis/Sach Khand to enjoy the Play of Consciousness with out loosing Awareness or Individuality.

Kal’s Agents are Vedanta Adventist Oneness Preachers.

Booking Agents for Christ know who they are, and recognize them right away, so are enemies of Kal.

Caveat Emptor! ( let the Seeker Beware )
Jim Sutherland

Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPad

[Osho Robbins]

Hi Jim,
Welcome back.
I haven't seen you comment on here for a while, but great to see you back.

I will comment on your reply later, this is just a welcome message

[Dungeness]

Dungeness:
Even if GIHF isn't manifest at death, the Master guides and protects a disciple within at all times. That will never change.
No revisionist spin can make me doubt it."

Osho:
Sorry but that also does not hold water as it goes directly against the first statement. It's just another way of saying the master will come at death, because if he is with you at ALL TIMES, that obviously includes death...

Hi again,

Here's a possible explanation.

The Master places his inner form within the disciple at
the time of initiation. That's the form that protects and
guides at all times including death. We fantasize that
the physical form that we've projected will come for us
at death. That's not the case.

We forget the Master is within us and at a higher level
of awareness we'll understand we're identical with him.
Instead we externalize and worship a form outside.
Similarly we fantasize about journeys we'll take and
different regions we'll see. They're stories. Metaphors.

Everything is within. Our path is inside. The journey is
just raising our awareness of what's inside and can
only be found there. Answers are not outside in the
books or cosmologies or stories of Kal and Dayal.
They're hints only. They have to be experienced inside.

[Osho Robbins]

Hi Jim,

Can I have the version WITH the profanity, so it matches mine.

Just kidding, without the profanity is as good as with the profanity.

I am not a great fan of the word GOD because of all the baggage attached to it
like "all powerful, all knowing, omnipresent", so if you replace God with the word
THE ONENESS, we can move forward.

So there are two states.

1. MAYA
The illusion, also known as MAYA. It is defined in hindu and sikh scriptures. It is that which you SEE and EXPERIENCE, but it is not REAL because it CHANGES and is within TIME and SPACE.
Everything that you see and experience is MAYA be definition. Anything that has form and is separate from the ONE is maya.

2. ONENESS (not MAYA)
This is beyond TIME and BEYOND SPACE. There are no FORMS, There is no individuality. There are no separate beings or souls. There is no DEVIL or KAL. There are no regions, no levels, no mind, no thought, no concepts. Quite simply it is the ONE.
It never changes. It cannot, because there is no TIME.
It cannot be described because it has NO attributes. Everything you say about it will be a LIE.

This state cannot be attained or achieved, and nobody can experience it. It simply IS.
I cannot say where or when - as those are irrelevant to it.

Past present future are meaningless terms, so you cannot arrive or leave.

So right now we are in the first state. MAYA.

How do you realize the second state? You drop all your ideas and listen. And then something might happen or might not. If it happens, you never did it. It happened all on it's own.

If you manage to drop your ideas, it will happen. If you don't, it won't.

You ideas, your identity, you "I" is what keeps you where you are.

If this drops then there is no longer a YOU. That is the state of ONENESS.
Kabir: When I WAS (a separate ME) I looked for YOU (GOD, or the ONE)
but could not find you, but then.....
I lost the "I"
and now YOU ARE (The ONENESS) and I AM NOT.

The ONENESS is the only permanent thing (well not really a thing as such)
and there cannot be TWO or MORE of them!

if there is more than ONE in the ONENESS - it's not oneness - it's duality.

Hence there cannot be regions, Anami, beings, souls, mansions, cruise ships, Roses, sexy women, 69 bedroom apartments, Rolls Royces etc.
If those are present - you are in DUALITY and MAYA and it will change, as everything within MAYA changes.

[JB]

The bonkers nonsense people believe will never cease to amaze me. Yikes. This is my exit cue.

[Vinny]

Even nothingness can be called as oneness, it would be a blatant lie, it is atomic energy pervading the universe. There are cunning atheists who would hair split the phrase atomic energy. For these cunning atheists I am introducing the term sub atom energy. Now they will google these terms and become rabid at me.