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November 27, 2018


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Brian, religion is not the issue here at all.

The problem is believing you know better than others, for whatever rationale, and therefore you are justified in imposing your will upon others. That's the basis of bigotry, ethnocentricism,
Nationalism, and totalitarianism.

Victorians thought their rational thinking was superior to those of the third world. So this leads to exploitation. Religion becomes merely a vehicle.

The tribe also can be faulted for this man's murder.

Should we take the same approach to refugees attempting to cross our boarders?

Please step back and look at this from a higher, and more accurate position.

So that you do not inadvertently advocate the same strategies as your opponents and find your own argument supporting immoral acts.

This shows the danger of religion. It makes people do stupid things. Sure, people do stupid things without religion, but when you add supernatural fantasies into the mix, a person's Stupid Quotient soars to new heights.

Religion is only the proximate cause. Nor does supernatural
religious fantasy elevate tragedy to new heights. Gazillions
of fervent, even evangelical religious believers don't rush into
perilous situations. The problem is deeper.

The real cause is the mind. Its distractions, fantasies, bullying,
its relentless battering of conscious/subconscious awareness.
It controls our thoughts and ultimately is determinative of our
actions. It's public enemy number one, not religion.

Just consider how many times a day, or even a minute, the
reckless emulate Chau's actions in one way or another. Not
religious fervor. No reason other than for fun, a moment's
sensation. Abuse drugs, binge drink, try dangerous stunts
"dumb and dumber" style.

As a tragic and misguided as it was, at least Chau had some
notion of "helping" others. I find myself wishing I could say "stop,
the enemy is within you. It's our own mind. It pretends to be
Jesus or religious equivalent, or even a wise friend. It screams
or whispers or cajoles all the while hiding its own real identity
and purpose. Don't trust it.. Keep watch on yourself. Overcome
that foe first. Then, one day, you can really help."

I haven't stilled my own mind so I'm pleading with myself. I can
see John Chau in bits and pieces of my own life and others'
too.. It's a bit late to sermonize. John probably wouldn't have
been likely to listen anyway. We don't either. The grip is too

But some messages need to be heard again and again.
Whether we're prepared to act or not.

Strange karma

Perhaps he wanted his own place in history

Galileo was persecuted by Church, when I talk of Jesus . It is about the divine energy and principles he stood for and not the Christian tribalism which is rampant today

Hi Vinny!:
You wrote:

"Galileo was persecuted by Church, when I talk of Jesus . It is about the divine energy and principles he stood for and not the Christian tribalism which is rampant today."

Nice. Even Sant Mat suffers the same. The organization vs the teachings and personal relationship to the Spirit. Ideally one reflects the other. The personal teachings are all about honest seeing and acknowledging, and science is a reflection of that sentiment.

The spirit of service in Christianity is a noble thing. And there are incredible examples of it throughout the history of Christianity.

But when it becomes self-promotional it has lost the entire point.

And then you have the horrors of the inquisition, and manifest destiny and all that.

So I agree that we should look to the teachings and sentiments in their spiritual form and separate the wheat from the chaff by distinguishing these teachings from the organization and its practices.

Christ forgave the woman caught in adultery, and notably shamed the men there (where was the man involved, afterall?) without asking that woman for anything, not a single prayer.

Christ raised the Good Samaritan, who held pagan beliefs, above the priests and rabbis, as the highest example of how we should conduct ourselves.

So those are the teachings worthy of bringing forth.
They don't require a belief in a divinity. It just happens that when we focus on divinity in its purest form, these sentiments arise like cream on milk.

Hi Appreciative:

You asked about the hereafter in the OT. Here are some citations referring to both everlasting life and the kingdom of heaven, as witnessed by the Saints.

"10 For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.
11 Thou wilt shew me the path of life: in thy presence is fulness of joy; at thy right hand there are pleasures for evermore."
PS 16:10-11

"23 Nevertheless I am continually with thee: thou hast holden me by my right hand.
24 Thou shalt guide me with thy counsel, and afterward receive me to glory.
25 Whom have I in heaven but thee? and there is none upon earth that I desire beside thee.
26 My flesh and my heart faileth: but God is the strength of my heart, and my portion for ever."
PS 73: 23-26

"15 As for man, his days are as grass: as a flower of the field, so he flourisheth.
16 For the wind passeth over it, and it is gone; and the place thereof shall know it no more.
17 But the mercy of the Lord is from everlasting to everlasting upon them that fear him, and his righteousness unto children's children;
18 To such as keep his covenant, and to those that remember his commandments to do them."
PS 103: 11-18

"7 The Lord shall preserve thee from all evil: he shall preserve thy soul.
8 The Lord shall preserve thy going out and thy coming in from this time forth, and even for evermore."
PS 121:7-8

"10 All thy works shall praise thee, O Lord; and thy saints shall bless thee.
11 They shall speak of the glory of thy kingdom, and talk of thy power;
12 To make known to the sons of men his mighty acts, and the glorious majesty of his kingdom.
13 Thy kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and thy dominion endureth throughout all generations.
14 The Lord upholdeth all that fall, and raiseth up all those that be bowed down.
15 The eyes of all wait upon thee; and thou givest them their meat in due season.
16 Thou openest thine hand, and satisfiest the desire of every living thing.
17 The Lord is righteous in all his ways, and holy in all his works.
18 The Lord is nigh unto all them that call upon him, to all that call upon him in truth.
19 He will fulfil the desire of them that fear him: he also will hear their cry, and will save them.
20 The Lord preserveth all them that love him: but all the wicked will he destroy.
21 My mouth shall speak the praise of the Lord: and let all flesh bless his holy name for ever and ever.
Psalm 145:10-21

Even me; . . on this atheistic forum
start catching their thoughts

Must be rather depressive

I hv cited Adi Granth in the past
but not about Gods doing represailles
More about having a crush and feel fine
and God never punishes
That is just the universe seeking balance

So glad that my Master will do
all for me as he did
Even the time of death event ! Wow

and what was the other : Oh the regions - What an ignoramus
to believe they not exist as long as creation is there

If you , I. we, can manufacture this planet
these regions is peanuts


Spencer said, "Brian, religion is not the issue here at all."

Yes. If there had been oil or gold discovered on that island lots of very rational, atheistic individuals would be as quick as anyone to want to exploit the islanders.

"The problem is believing you know better than others, for whatever rationale, and therefore you are justified in imposing your will upon others. That's the basis of bigotry, ethnocentricism,
Nationalism, and totalitarianism."

Imposing, or in this case, trying impose your will. It would have been great to have a conversation with them though.

I agree with the blog host about the incident discussed above.

I also agree with the blog host when he says.. "Of course, God doesn't exist.." at least in the way he thinks of what God might be.
He believes that if there were such a thing as God it would be something that could be objectively known.. a thing. But God could not be any sort of objective thing.
Well, what then?
God is subject.. subject of all objects including ourselves. Subject of the subject-object we think of as ourselves.
Then as subjects we are objects?
Conceptually, yes. 'We' act as subject and think of ourselves as objects incessantly, spinning like a coin, alternatively heads and tails, but in all we are, or could be subjectively, we are whatever Godhead is.
And what is that?
Just the absence of what we suppose ourselves to be, which is the presence of what we are.
And that is?
Our total objective absence, which is necessarily the subjective presence of God.
So, the blogger is correct. There is no objective God. None. It will never be found.
The looking is what is looked for. See?

Quote Joe:
If there had been oil or gold discovered on that island lots of very rational, atheistic individuals would be as quick as anyone to want to exploit the islanders.

True, many atheists would do that, but so would many theists! Given that, isn't this a non sequitur?

True, ridding the world of the unnecessary sufferings caused by blind faith in religions wouldn't make us free of all of our sufferings. We'd still be plagued by many other ills.

But because there is more than just the one ill plaguing us, surely that is no reason not to try to stamp out such causes of unnecessary suffering as we are able to identify? And surely blind faith in religions is one such cause, and as such, surely it should be criticized, and got rid of if possible?

Appreciative reader, some people need their blind faith religion, for whatever reason. If it is not hurting others and not interfering with the lives of others, people have the right to belief whatever they wish. Believe it or not, some blind faith religious organizations actually contribute a lot to the community without demanding anything in return.

Hello, Joe.

I agree, blind faith is not without its uses. I agree, blind faith does result in lots of charity and lots of altruistic endeavors and projects, no doubt about that. Not to forget the solace that it can offer in troubling times to believers. Whether the net cumulative end-result is positive or negative is a separate issue, but that issue is undoubtedly nuanced, and cannot possibly hold that there is no good at all to religion.

Not to beat this to death, Joe, but in this present instance that Brian presents, of this missionary going gallivanting off to the Andamans, "interfering with the lives of others" is exactly what he was up to. As for "hurting others", well, as Brian points out, he would certainly have hurt them by infecting them with microbes that those islanders have no defense against. Not to forget that he did end up hurting himself, and got himself killed, wholly unnecessarily.

This single instance, as chronicled in The Adventures of John Chau, does not seem to hold any positives as far as religion, and plenty of negatives.

What a naive idiot, sorry but I do react to preachiness and this Chau fellow takes it to the extreme. Interesting how the tribe liked one of the groups who visited them because they liked the woman (in the quote below). These people are animists who worship nature, which imo is far more spiritual than the religions of the world.


"On his final visit, on 17 November, Chau instructed the fishermen to leave without him.[45] The fishermen later saw the islanders dragging Chau's body, and the next day they saw his body on the shore.[54][51]
A senior police officer in the Andamans told The Print that Chau’s journal read like the ramblings of a "crazed man". "If you read his journal, it is like he is hallucinating. He writes things like, 'I’ve been chosen by God'," the police officer said.[47]

The Washington Post obtained Chau's journal, which stated that he had a clear desire to convert the tribe and was aware of the risk of death he faced and of the illegality of his visits to the island. Chau wrote "Lord, is this island Satan's last stronghold where none have heard or even had the chance to hear your name?", "The eternal lives of this tribe is at hand", and "I think it's worthwhile to declare Jesus to these people. Please do not be angry at them or at God if I get killed ...Don’t retrieve my body."[54][55]

"Most of the tribes in the Andamans, including the Sentinelese, are animists. They worship nature. I saw their practices when I lived with them, months at an end. Those who pray to the sky, water, and land — what’s Christianity or Hinduism to them?", says Madhumala Chattopadhyay, the first woman to make a friendly contact with the Sentinelese, to The Print.[56][57]"

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