More Zen-like talk from Gurinder Singh Dhillon

Even though I no longer belong to Radha Soami Satsang Beas, I know that many people who visit this blog are still interested in the RSSB philosophy, and how the current RSSB guru, Gurinder Singh Dhillon, is taking that philosophy in a new direction.

Here's a message I got today from Osho Robbins, who enjoys speaking with Gurinder Singh, a.k.a. "Baba Gurinder," about subjects few, if any, people raise at RSSB meetings, or satsangs.

As I've noted in previous posts, it's good that Gurinder Singh is acting less like a traditional RSSB guru and more like a Zen master. However, even the new slant he's putting on the RSSB teachings is still way too religious for me.

This is what Robbins sent to me, suggesting it could be a blog post. Which, it now is.

There are two distinct “paths” in Sant Mat.

The path of karni (doing).

The path of surrender.

So last Sunday, I asked Baba Gurinder a question at Haynes Park Sunday satsang.

This was my question:

It is said there are TWO ways on the path. One is KARNI and the other SURRENDER.

You are famous for saying……

“My way or the highway” – he says, interrupting me, but quite accurately, as that was exactly what I was about to say.

Yes, exactly. Which means there is only “my way” because “highway” is not a way. 

Would you agree that actually there is only ONE way, which is surrender  and that karni is just a means to arrive at surrender, since you also say that “your efforts will not succeed, but keep on doing anyway.”

His reply was,

“Well, yes, ultimately the path of doing leads to surrender and very few of us can surrender without the struggle. Hence most people are on the path of karni.”

He then explained in detail that surrender means to let go of the mind and to accept everything the master says, without fighting it.

His reply was interesting for a few reasons:

He is making it very clear that ultimately it’s about going beyond the “trying to do it your way”.

He is in effect saying that the whole path of doing is about tiring the ego, until it gives in.

The previous path was about seriously achieving and attaining exact regions and making progress was a specific task. You had to meditate for 2.5 hours a day, in order to take your soul upwards and inwards to the Astral Region and meet the Radiant Form of the Master. As far as I am aware it was not about tiring the ego out.

The point I am making is that these are two very different and distinct paths.

Trying to get to a certain region, meditating to leave the body, struggling to get somewhere, seeing light, getting to the radiant form, traversing inner regions, meeting Sat Purush, having tea with him, while chatting about old times.

That was the old path.

The new one is very different: just realize the ONE. You already ARE the one, you just need to realise it, not attain or merge in it.

Merging means you are now separate and have to do something to merge.

Now this is the really interesting part:

He plays to both audiences, and now I know why.

Those who are on the old path, he lets them carry on, but more than that, he actively encourages them to continue on the old path.

He only engages in a discussion on the new path, if the person conversing with him is clearly on the same page. 

So, WHY does he do this?

He told me exactly why.

If someone is unable to understand the new path, why bother to explain?

Let them carry on and when they finally get tired, they will begin to see what the truth is. Telling them prematurely does not help as it just becomes an idea to them, not a reality.

So he lets them believe what they want to believe.

So he clearly says one thing to me and the opposite to another just a few minutes later. 

Unless the other person questions it – he just carries on.

He plays both sides, because it is up to the seeker to fathom what the fuck is going on here.

What becomes very clear is that there are no seekers of truth in the audience, as any true seeker will raise this point.

For what it's worth, this is the basic schema of the old path referred to above, which I found with the grace of the Great God Google. Since I experience darkness when I close my eyes and meditate, it looks like I've reached a pretty damn high region of the divine cosmos, Maha Sunn, the Great Void.

Feel free to worship me, since neither our dog nor my wife does. (Well, our dog does a pretty good imitation when it's time for me to take her for a walk, or feed her, but I strongly suspect that worship is highly conditional.)

Comments

[Sarah]

OK, so we’re supposed to “let go of the mind and to accept everything the master says, without fighting it”? Which master/Master is GSD talking about? Is he referring to himself or to the radiant form of the Master within? If he is referring to the radiant form then it seems he should be encouraging people to seek that and see that WITHIN. But it almost sounds like GSD just wants us to listen to “Gurinder Singh Dhillon” and do whatever he says without question.

What am I missing here??

Just curious—what does it do to a person’s psyche to be told at 36 that he’s now “GIHF” and is in charge of the fate of a few million souls? How does one’s mind develop from there? Especially given that there’s a few years of “transitioning” that a Master/Guru goes through—an adjustment period that even the Masters talk about. One day they’re running around partying and getting traffic tickets then the next day they are GIHF?? That’s just bizarre. Could that theoretically plant the seed of narcissism?

Now I’m going to sit back and wait for the backlash of comments... but it’s how I REALLY feel.

[Sarah]

BTW, where is Jesse?

[Jen]

This word "surrender" is interesting imo. How does that word affect someone when we think about it. For me its: surrender to who, what, how, why, and all sorts of other questions in my mind. So, yes I think it is kind of Zen like, because thats what Zen koans do.

I looked this up and this makes sense to me. So if I contemplate on that word "surrender" it might create a shift in my thinking or at least tell my ego to shut the f... up.

"What is the purpose of a Zen koan? One teaching that aids us in reaching the realm of non-dual experience stems from Zen, the koan. Koans are various procedures attempting to lead to higher states of being or consciousness. The purpose of koan is to help the individual escape himself from thinking and the constraints of the rational mind."

[Sarah]

Jen, thanks for your Zen koan comment.

I realize that I’m really hard on Gurinder and that’s probably because I don’t put him in the same category as everyone else.

Plain and simple “His way” is the opposite of my way. GSD is all about karma and judgement. I’m done with karma in a sense... I don’t think it’s the highest law. If you choose to forgive a debt that’s you’re right and the debt doesn’t need to be repaid. He’s very charming and funny but our paths are completely opposite... and they were meant to be that way. Although we’ll wind up in the same place... his road is not mine.

So, going forward I’m going to TRY to remember to take it easy on him. Anyway, there’s really nothing left to be said about my experience with RSSB that hasn’t already been said.

But, yes, I did really appreciate your comment. We can’t operate in this world without an ego... or a mind but we can take a rest from it every now and then. Fortunately the mind eventually dies.

[777]

I understand but find unfortunate
that , given the actual audience
the real path way
is not discussed anymore

Charan mentioned often
The easiest way is LOVE

It was always LOVE and will be always LOVE

Submission cannot be honest without LOVE

Charan said once in a while : "Start as a friend"

Are people these days THAT numb, . .
Gurinder cannot even say That !

Or is LOVE these days seen as rape, so don't mention the war ( John Gleese)

777

Love is the desire to to good to another being

777

[Osho Robbins]

People following RSSB are on their own path.
Each follower has their own ideas.
Just like 777 on here.
Just like Spence on here.
Just like all the faithful on here.

None of them are following the same path.
Each is following THEIR version.

And their version is made up of their own concepts.

Nobody is going to tell them that they don’t have a clue.

Even if they did, the follower will not listen as he or she is convinced their way is correct.

It’s pretty much like every person on the path is actually saying “it’s my way or the highway”

Each follows their own path.

This can be seen clearly with 777

And with others

[Osho Robbins]

The "My Way or the Fucking Highway" I agree with.

In ANY endeavor, you can't do it your way. You have to listen to the person you are learning from.

Of course you need to exercise discretion and use your own mind as well, so it's not a total surrender.

So I don't agree with the exact idea of surrender, and it probably does not exist.

I don't even think it's a good idea, as you are giving up your licence to think, which you need in order to function in the world.

If someone claims to have surrendered I don't believe them, here's why:

WHY have they surrendered? Whatever the reason, that is their motive. So then it's a managed surrender, which is not the sant mat concept of surrender at all.

If they genuinely surrender without any reason then its most likely some mental illness as no normal
person will give up their own freedom and identity.

That's very dangerous territory. When you no longer operate within reasons, you lose touch with this level of reality, and start doing crazy things.

No offence intended, and I apologize to 777 in advance, but just using his example,
777 writes in this way, such a person will LIVE that way, and nobody will be able to reason with him - not even the guru!

I am sure GSD is not advocating that because he also tells people to keep a balance.

A person in surrender is definitely not in balance.

The closest example we have in our society is the army.

They train you to obey, not think.

If they say fire, you fire.

You don't say, "But, colonel, there are children there and I won't kill children."

You are not allowed to question. You just follow orders.

It takes a lot of training to make a soldier get to that point. He has to get broken down first.

Pretty much what a sect does to it's members. They start to think in a different way, acquire a new vocabulary, and hang out with the in-crowd, and get alienated from the rest of the world, who are considered "outsiders"

[Appreciative Reader]

I really don’t know what to make of these convoluted attempts to defend GSD (as well, elsewhere, his predecessor Charan Singh) from the suspicion of actual charlatanry. (I mean as it applies to his Guru-dom, and quite apart from the recent financial shenanigans.)

There is a whole lot of people who think he’s the literal GIHF, the literal and actual conduit to a higher reality. That much I have gathered, and am very sure of, from my perusal of this blog.

Now either he is that, or is he isn’t. Either way, he’ll know which is fact. If he didn’t know immediately on ascension to GIHF-hood, he’ll have known in a year or two or three after.

So, if he’s actually GIHF, that’s one thing. But if he isn’t, then I suggest he knows he isn’t : had he been a decent, honest person, then he’d clearly have said as much.

Simply giving out the odd hint here and there, while at the same time accepting the worship of the masses, that means nothing. The truly honest way to go? That would be what Jiddu Krishnamurti did, when he disbanded that whole organization that so venerated and worshipped him.

Either GSD is truly GIHF. Or else he’s a charlatan. There’s no third way. (Provided we rule out actual insanity.)

.

All of which is only to hark back to what I remember Brian has already said, in a post long ago, that went something like “Jesus is either a liar or lunatic”. Of course, with Jesus, given the millennia separating us from him, we do have a legitimate third option, which is : legend, myth. That option is not available to GSD.

.

Hello, Osho Robbins.

Now that you’re back here, I wonder if you’d care to engage with my “residual self” idea, that I’d brought up twice in that other thread?

By the way : I’m only bringing this up now, yet again, because I’m guessing that you may perhaps have missed those two comments of mine, back in that other thread, in the whole flood of other and unrelated comments in that thread. (The rate of commenting has gone up very significantly here at Brian’s blog of late!) If, on the other hand, you do not, in fact, actually want to engage with this idea of mine at all, then my apologies for this apparent hustle ; it’s no big deal, I’ll be happy to let it go in that case.

[Sarah]

Hi AR,

Or maybe the “third way” is that he has reached a certain level—like a yogi but just hasn’t gone beyond that. Perhaps he stopped somewhere along the way and thought this is good enough... or as good as it gets. He may not actually know who he is.

I mean, what if he never made it past the 3rd region? It could be that he’s not even as evolved as Brian... LOL

But seriously, at the risk of sounding “mental” I can tell you that in my experience with him over the years I saw him do many things that only someone at a yogi level can do. However, it doesn’t impress me one way or the other. It just means he has done a certain amount of work... maybe he went as far as he wanted to. According to Sant Mat literature a lot of people/yogis make it to the third region and are quite content not to go any further.

You see, I’m finally giving the guy a little credit. 😉

[Sarah]

And I really thought Brian would find that funny... it was not a jab. 😊

[Appreciative Reader]

Sure, I guess that's a possibility too, I suppose. That he's "ascended" some way, but not quite to the pinnacle ; and imagines, wrongly, that he's gone to the peak. (Provided one takes at face value the very possibility of yogic "ascension".)

Although, of course, if that is the case, then we ordinary mortals wouldn't know. Should such a thing be possible at all, and should GSD have reached half-way up the peak, then only someone who's traversed higher would know enough to evaluate that. So I suppose this posibility would be a subset of the GIHF-possibility, so far as us ordinary mortals are concerned. (Or am I over-analyzing what was no more than a simple joke?)

Nice collection of emojis, btw! One Initiated once referred me to a site full of lovely emojis, colorful and vibrant, but I can't be bothered to go search out that comment of his right now, else I'd have responded with one myself!

[Arjuna]

Just read this post and the posts - if you ask me we humans are strong enough to withstand the road to surrender - He Himself said that l,

I agree with Osho on the whole of his comments -everyone is heading up their own paths.

Tiring and surrender will leave some drained and prone to mental breakdowns- and mental disorders!!!

I give up now!!!!

[Arjuna]

Correction - we humans are Not strong enough!

[Arjuna]

@ Osho - they do train us to think we are not robots. The thinking solider!

The SBS and SAS are elite soliders - thinking and can self control. But deadly and without equal in the world!

Disagree you on that one but can see your point!

[Todd Chambers]

Ramana Maharshi also taught two ways, Surrender and Inquiry (Vichaara).

[Spence Tepper]

I don't think this is a reliable witness because the saints, including Gurindar, also teach the path of love.and there is the path of knowledge.

The fact that these missing in the post is only consistent with the personal views of the poster and the author.

[Spence Tepper]

Osho
Why the hell didn't you ask about the fraudulent loans??

Dude.. We're all in a holding pattern!

[Arjuna]

Also master answers to suit the dude asking the question- the answers he gave you are yours and yours alone Osho.

He has given you a rather harder exam paper than most 😀

[Jen]

Hi Appreciative Reader,

You say: "Either GSD is truly GIHF. Or else he’s a charlatan."

We are all GIHF and we are all players in this game of life.

I used to put the Master on a platform and take him very seriously but now I can laugh along with his silly jokes. Maybe thats what Gurinder is doing, especially when answering all those weeping satsangis asking him questions and begging for help. His message seems to be, gotta lighten up brothers and sisters. Isn't lightening up a kind of surrender? Just going with the flow.

[Spence Tepper]

Hi Jen
You wrote
"You say: "Either GSD is truly GIHF. Or else he’s a charlatan."

We are all GIHF and we are all players in this game of life.

I used to put the Master on a platform and take him very seriously but now I can laugh along with his silly jokes. Maybe thats what Gurinder is doing, especially when answering all those weeping satsangis asking him questions and begging for help. His message seems to be, gotta lighten up brothers and sisters. Isn't lightening up a kind of surrender? Just going with the flow."

What a lovely statement.

[Arjuna]

@ Spencer - Osho could not ask Master the question about the loans as even if it was on his mind he couldn’t ask! Master was in charge of that conversation NOT Osho! Even though Osho walked away thinking he was!

Master would be able to see through Osho as you look at a glass of water! And please don’t believe these Beings when they say they are too struggling- for if they are struggling we are truly FUCKED! They don’t struggle - we do! His frequency resonates at a higher level than ours!

Much love and looking forward to the come backs and abuse from others with love !

[Arjuna]

@ Spencer Omg ! Something come over me to write that last post - it was like I was possessed!

[Spence Tepper]

Hi Arjuna
Everthing happens on multiple levels.
But I'm cautious about attributing details to events I didn't witness.

Or to dismissing factual evidence.

I don't think, BTW, that a true Master controls people. But that's just a general opinion.

And in that same vein I'm not going to try to modify or challenge what you wrote, but instead to honor it as your subjective personal experience.

I do hope Gurindar will provide some answers.

If we must defacto assume he is perfect and we are flawed, I just don't think that's how he wants us to view him, with blind nearly superstitious deification.

My own Master, Maharaji, said to an initiate who lauded him with praise,
"I'm just like you. Don't raise me up like that."

I think, if we honor them as perfect, we don't re-write this.

We follow it with honor. Even to the point of saying, "God damn it Baba Ji! What the Fuck!"

That's love to. Love of truth. And respect for Baba Ji as a real person, not an icon we don't have to actually deal with.

[Spence Tepper]

Hi Appreciative!

You wrote
"Either GSD is truly GIHF. Or else he’s a charlatan. There’s no third way. (Provided we rule out actual insanity.)"

Yes, actually, there is a third way : Both.

GIHF pretending to be a charlatan.

Just to piss me off!
(going back to your third alternative. ;)

[Spence Tepper]

Let me try it this way

Disciple "Why did he do that?"
Representative, "At our level we can't understand."
Master, "Don't be distracted."
Disciple "Right now you are the big public distraction. So, why don't you try explaining it me. Like we're real friends."

[Spence Tepper]

Disciple "And please don't bullshit me, like real friends don't bullshit each other..."

[Dungeness]

Disciple "And please don't bullshit me, like real friends don't bullshit each other..."

Love it!

And while you're at it, it's a good time to press him
for more spiritual insights. A little chutzpah never
hurt.

[Dogribb]

"My way or the highway" More like... I have an institution here don't give me any static. Im paraphrasing a fellow RSSB here.

[Sarah]

Gurinder has confessed to feeling miserable at times (those were his worlds, “I feel miserable” and then he pushed the mic aside and stormed out). He once told the Western Sangat that he was “sad... very, very sad”. He has his ups and downs and sometimes he’s afraid and very worried. He’s not always in a state of bliss as some would like to believe. His closest companions that travel with him joke that he’s bipolar. The guy has real struggles. He fights with his family just like everyone else does from time to time. He gets in big fights with the committee at the Dera sometimes. He makes mistakes and he apologizes. He is human. He has many, many challenges and receives as much criticism as he does praise. He isn’t perfect. He’s just like us... with a little more intensity at times.

And he tries. He tries to make sense of his world. He tries to make sense if the world and worlds or states of consciousness beyond this life.

It must be utterly exhausting.

[Arjuna]

@ Spencer - I know a Master doesn’t control a disciple- have a think about what I really meant 😀. There was only one leader in their conversation!

Have a fab day - I am 😀

[s*]

Yes I think so Sarah!
Thanks for telling..

[Osho Robbins]

Arjuna writes
"Osho could not ask Master the question about the loans as even if it was on his mind he couldn’t ask! Master was in charge of that conversation NOT Osho! Even though Osho walked away thinking he was!"

Arjuna, if it was of interest to me, I would have asked.

What do you mean by "in charge of?"

If you are stating he has some magical powers to control others, you are very mistaken.

Sarah states he is very human. I would agree.

He doesnt claim to be superhuman or GIHF.

Arjuna continues
"Master would be able to see through Osho as you look at a glass of water! And please don’t believe these Beings when they say they are too struggling- for if they are struggling we are truly FUCKED! They don’t struggle - we do! His frequency resonates at a higher level than ours!"

These are all myths that come in the GIHF package.

If this was the case, nothing would ever go "wrong" around a master.

Sheena and Brian would not have left as he would have seen through them.

Struggle happens in their life too, as they are human.

If that means we are all fucked, then so be it.

Actually that is not the case, we are not fucked.

We are just going through the human experience, which necessarily includes struggle, at times.

If there are challenges, there has to be struggle to some degree.

He was battling with cancer. Who wants cancer? Overcoming it takes some struggle.

If I want to lose 10 KG weight, I will have to exert effort, get up early, go to the gym, give up
cream cakes, exert considerable effort in the gym, not just turn up.

That will mean struggle to some degree.

As for frequency resonating, not sure frequency of what? Abstract idea

nuf said

[Osho Robbins]

@arjuna

Also I didnt walk away thinking I was in charge. I fdont care to be in charge.

It was a simple question, and he was free to answer as he chooses.

Nobody was "in charge" as such.

[Sarah]

AR,

I was sincere about the entire comment. The joke was only about Maha Sunn... although Maha Sunn is no joking matter when you think about it.

____________

s*,

You’re welcome.

I would paste a Namaste Bitmoji here if typepad would allow me to, but since it won’t I’ll just share this joke that the nerd in me loves:

What did the mathematician say?

Numbers Stay. 🙏

🤣

(I can only insert emojis from my iPhone...)

[777]

Sarah :
"And he tries. He tries to make sense of his world. He tries to make sense if the world and worlds or states of consciousness beyond this life."

Apart off/from the Shabd Dhun , . . let's wish HIM many Serendipities

All the Time

Yes, . . . we can pray for HIM

777

[777]

Osho said :
I am sure GSD is not advocating that because he also tells people to keep a balance.
A person in surrender is definitely not in balance. ( W R O N G )

Surrender can only come from LOVE
If not It's artificial , so it's not

You will not have a crush on an ugly gurl or guy. !!! - :-)

777

[One Initiated]

I am in bliss and lately HE is tricking me a lot... not allowing me to focus on work - ha ha.
HE seduces a lot (how can I explain the spiritual seduction) and then smiles and then throws more work pressure and says:
"Try not to feel ecstatic now in the middle of material hurricanes"

And during all these I open up this page just to get even more amused.

OMG - ha ha ... I could not stop laughing and smiling!!!

Outstanding quotes of the year 2018:

Spence: GIHF pretending to be a charlatan.

777: You will not have a crush on an ugly gurl or guy.

Thank you so much for adding these here.
Spence & 777 I can keep loving you guys just for these two lines.

I don't know how to admit what I am going through,
I know many commenters here have already been through the same,
but to me the word Love is sounding so fragmentary and deficient for this.
And actually I do not have a word to elaborate it at all.

Until I get a better vocabulary,
Lots of love to everyone 😊

[Arjuna]

@ Osho - have a good weekend 😀

[Appreciative Reader]

Quote Jen : His message seems to be, gotta lighten up brothers and sisters. Isn't lightening up a kind of surrender? Just going with the flow.

That's a lovely perspective, Jen. At more than one level.

What you say itself makes a great deal of sense. And what is more, to go somewhat meta on that thought : It's true, we can always look at anything, everything, from a perspective that focuses primarily on oneself. It can be argued that that is, in the end, the only meaningful perspective.

On the other hand, that sort of an attitude, while it can be very satisfying and fulfilling personally, tends to give others something of a free pass, and that sort of thing is bound to come back and bite one, sooner or later.

So perhaps a judicious mix of both these POVs, the inward-looking and the outward-facing, might be best?

[Appreciative Reader]

Quote Spence : Yes, actually, there is a third way : Both. --- GIHF pretending to be a charlatan. --- Just to piss me off!

I appreciate that you're joking, Spence, but yes, seriously, I've actually seen a third view argued very passionately and logically : that GSD (or Charan Singh, as the discussion I recall was about) is/was only performing to the best of his ability the 'service', the 'Seva', that he'd been assigned. And that POV makes sense, and it may well even be the truth.

This third POV would actually absolve GSD (or Charan Singh) of any mala fide intent. Absolutely. Nevertheless, I'd argue that, their inner motives and intentions notwithstanding, even that would be a form of charlatanry, in as much as, at the end of the day, they're non-GIHFs who're conniving (if only indirectly) in having others worship them as such. Albeit this explanation provides a far nobler picture of these Guru(s), nevertheless I'd still put this under the broad slot of charlatanry.

This sort of thing is very common, actually. Out-and-out con men are one thing : but what of the reluctant "Master", pushed by circumstances on to Guru-dom, who, no matter their intentions, does participate in what is after all a rank fraud, a rank misleading of their trusting followers? Even the best of the "Guru"s or religious leaders (including, for instance, the current Pope, Pope Francis, a man whom I generally admire, incidentally) would fall squarely in this category.

Which is why what Jiddu Krishnamurti did shines so clear and bright, as an example of uncompromising honesy.

[Appreciative Reader]

Quote Sarah : AR, --- I was sincere about the entire comment.

That surprises me, given your generally rational bent, as evidenced in your comments.

But sure, if thinking that works for you, why not? To each their own : I'm the last person to contest someone else's personal, subjective beliefs or faith.

🙏 🙏 Namaste to you, Sarah! 🙏 🙏 (Lovely emoji! I've simply copied these from your own comment.)

.

Hello, One Initiated! I was telling Sarah, a while back, of those lovely emojis, so bright and vibrant, that you'd once shared with me. Been a while since I used them, must go back and dig up that comment of yours.

Glad your meditation's going well -- as I gather from your recent comments. I've been going a bit easy on my own mediation of late -- as might be obvious from the profusion of my comments here of late! -- but perhaps I should follow your example (as you'd told me once, long back), and duck back out of sight for a while, and concentrate on the inner rather than the outer.

[Appreciative Reader]

Hello, Osho Robbins!

I won't go back to my "residual self" theme, but I cannot help reflecting this in the context of your discussion with GSD and your subsequent comments : That none of this actually makes any kind of sense unless you subscribe to a life-after-death kind of belief system. (That's the generic "you", I don't mean you personally.)

And I say this even as I myself follow a structured mystical path -- in fact a complex path that is an amalgam of traditions -- myself. Playing Devil's Advocate, as it were.

The most parsimonious explanation of what we know is this : that our illusory self (I agree with you that there is no self, or at least that it is chimerical, not real) disappears after death. That it is an incidental result of our physical bodies, that evolution has equipped us with, and that dissolves when its cause (the body) disappears. That is the conclusion that Occam's Razor points us towards (even as it does not prove any of this).

Should that be the case, then what is the point of all of this? All of this "try until you can try no more", and "karni until you surrender", et cetera? What is the point of all of this? Why do any of this? And why does GSD instigate others to waste such large chunks of their life on these pointless exercises?

Like I said, this makes no sense, none at all, unless one subscribes (if only implicitly) to some fantastic life-after-death immaterial belief system.

[Spence Tepper]

Hi Appreciative:

You wrote:

"Which is why what Jiddu Krishnamurti did shines so clear and bright, as an example of uncompromising honesty."

Yes, he turned down the effort to become another sort of guru.
But could it be equally uncompromising to accept the job, if it's a good job that can help others?

I don't like the idea of God pretending to be a thief, just to get into the middle of the marketplace and all those corrupt people there.

If you must put on dirt to clean up the stables, I don't like it.

I want my Master to be pure at all times and this clothing of dirt is not to my liking.
So many false gurus do this.

But we are all living in a skin of dirt.

I'm not making excuses. Gurindar should absolutely speak about this in complete honesty and detail. He has a relationship to each of us and if we are in the dark, what else should we expect?

I don't like the idea that we can't distinguish in fact and objective truth the difference between a fake and the real thing. Because there are more people in love with the fake than the real, we can't use testimony of love as a guidepost. Because people love to be given excuses for weakness, there is more testimony for the fake gurus than for the real one.

Unless we say the real thing doesn't do this stuff.

But I'm not high enough to know.

I only know that facts are facts. Inner experience is also a fact.

So, holding pattern....

[Appreciative Reader]

One may differ about the details of such belief. One may state such beliefs outright or one may keep it implicit. But in the absence of such beliefs, the one and only conclusion that makes sense, is this : that GSD is a charlatan. Perhaps not a deliberate charlatan, who's out to deliberately defraud people, but a charlatan nonetheless.

This is like debating why someone has gone and committed some huge financial fraud, or a murder. No amount of analyzing of the causes can take away from the fact of the fraud or the murder. And what is most damning is that this is an ongoing shtick. (You can justify even murder by showing extenuating circumstances like self-defense, but that only works if you've stopped murdering! Not if you're on an unending spree!)

Thus with GSD.

Like I said, unless he goes all-out and does a Jiddu Krishnamurti, then these are all different variations of the same routine. What does it matter if says there are five levels, or ten levels, or five hundred and five levels, or no levels at all? What does it matter what he says, unless he stops saying these things altogether and steps down from that pedestal of his for god?

Nope. I admire your "chutzpah" (as someone here has described it), Osho Robbins, in repeatedly bearding the lion in his own den, but you're far too charitable of the man and his continuing Master-hood.

Sure, if someone believes he's a real "master", gihf, whatever, then in light of that belief (no matter how fantastic that belief itself), GSD's continuing as Guru makes sense. But if you take that belief away, then there is NO justification (no HONEST justification) for his continuing with these dramatics.

[Appreciative Reader]

Spence : Yes, he turned down the effort to become another sort of guru.

Valid point. JK did disband his Star organization, but he still did spend his life living off these lectures of his. To my knowledge he never did a day's honest work to earn his own keep, nor was he bequeathed vast wealth in the normal course (by his father, for instance). Therefore, while he was honest, at another level his motives are kind of suspect, I'll grant you that, absolutely.

But could it be equally uncompromising to accept the job, if it's a good job that can help others?

While continuing to perpetuate the lie that he's GIHF (and while himself knowing full well that he's no GIHF)?

And no, I don't see what "good" he's doing, TBH.

The charity? You take a hundred dollars from people, and spend five or ten of those dollars on charity? The Vatican model of charity? Keep aside 95 cents of every dollar received to fund your own monstrous organization?

Even when there is zero actual fraud, when -- as with the Pope -- there is no personal dishonesty, even then I find this kind of a structure insupportable. The very foundation of this is a lie.

And yes, when you throw actual thieving and actual fraud into the mix, then we move into a whole different level of actual criminality.

[Appreciative Reader]

Spence again : "Inner experience is also a fact."

As far as that, Spence, as far as your subjective experiences, no argument from me.

Like I was saying to Jen, focusing on oneself (and looking firmly inward) is one way to go. Perhaps that is best, perhaps that is the only thing that is ultimately fulfilling.

But if we always do this, we risk giving others a free pass. What was it Churchill had said? I forget his words, but that kind of thing does not even serve, in the long run, the limited purpose of letting us live in peace and content. That sort of thing tends to turn back and bite us in the backside, sooner or later.

So perhaps a judicious mix of the two, a judicious mix of the inward gaze and the outward?

[Spence Tepper]

Hi Appreciative
You wrote
"But if we always do this, we risk giving others a free pass. What was it Churchill had said? I forget his words, but that kind of thing does not even serve, in the long run, the limited purpose of letting us live in peace and content. That sort of thing tends to turn back and bite us in the backside, sooner or later.

So perhaps a judicious mix of the two, a judicious mix of the inward gaze and the outward?"

That's what we're left with, but it's unresolved, because they appear in contradiction. I don't do cognitive dissonance. I live with the conflict as long as possible, since fact is fact.

But I don't like it.

[Dungeness]

And what is most damning is that this is an ongoing shtick.

Really? What has he been convicted of? Poisoning sick children with dangerous meds again? Selling a hospital, heartlessly tossing its patients out on the street? Stealing seva donations? Off-shoring spoils in Singapore? Partying it up in Spain?

Yep, verdict's in. Off-color jokes, a heretical revision of holy dogma to 2.0/3.0, and yes, even a tell-all book from an insider smarting from his cruel words. Clearly a greedy, misogynist charlatan, eh.

[Spence Tepper]

Hi Appreciative

Your recerence to Churchill is particularly poignant. Chamberlain was the great peacemaker, ignoring all the signs of Germany 's growing illegal war machine.

And Churchill' s career sufferered complete destruction because he simply could not ignore the statistics about where money was going in Germany 's economy.... Until Poland.

Then Churchill was the only one who had told the truth all along.

Brian is falling into that position now.

[Arjuna]

Churchill was also responsible for 2 million Indians dying as he diverted food supplies.

Also if he could have reached a deal with Hitler - that the third reich would not touch his beloved empire- he would not have gone to war with Germany . But he could not trust hitler.

Wonder if he will be sent back to be born in India as an Indian. Never too late for a soul to learn lol

[Brian Hines]

Dungeness, I guess you haven't been reading the stories in the financial press about Gurinder Singh Dhillon and his family.

They set up numerous shell companies, which got loans from other companies owned/controlled by the Singh brothers and RSSB insiders. Those unpaid loans were a big reason Fortis and Religare went broke, leaving outside shareholders of those companies with large losses. The guru's family ended up with several hundred million dollars worth of other people's money, basically. Give the Bloomberg story a read:

http://hinessight.blogs.com/church_of_the_churchless/2018/08/bloomberg-story-shows-gurinder-singh-dhillons-shady-business-dealings.html

[777]

Why do any of this? And why does GSD instigate others to waste such large chunks of their life on these pointless exercises?

Because there is no other way to go
for stop thoughts, next be HIM
and BEING His method ( The Georgeous Sound Sream )

777

[Spence Tepper]

Hi Arjuna
Churchill had his prejudices. He didn't love Ghandi. He believed British Imperialism was OK in India, and only begrudgingly ceded control. He had his blind spots.

He was a product of his time.

But he did try to offer Jews a homeland and tried to give to the Palistinians control, offering to withdraw British rule, if they would allow Jews citizenship there, in a Palistinian run government.

In his way he was highly progressive.

But the Palistinians, through the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem, chose to join allegiance with Adolph Hitler, demanding the total irradication of the Jews from planet earth.

Some scars are so deep they are unlikely to heal anytime soon.

But, it is no exaggeration to say that WWII world have been lost to Germany and Japan, and any hope of democracy die, in Churchil's absence.

Hitler's love of the Aryan race, and his commitment to placing the world under white male rule forever would certainly not have been as friendly to India.

So, actually I think that Churchill, with all his flaws, having saved civilisation as we know it, is probably sitting today in the lap of Christ.

[777]

As said and knowing this 'Way' is different for each Jeeva (=soul+ego)
and is not describable,
we can definitely declare (PM)
that the entity first will become One with
the Word_package and The Master
to have a solid 'protection' like a mental auto immune sys or
vaccination
"against" the giant eruptions of . . " devastating " . . Light and Sound

and only then the neophyte can stay physically alive

with the exception logically of his last breath,

This is again the explanation of heaving conquered death

It is such a formidable orgasmic system
I have no words , <. . except those 5 words -

777

We here are discussing about creational powers
with tremendous IQ
while only simran (from a Saint) does it all.
Even the Love : It's impossible to not Love
because the girl is So wonderful

[777]

So, actually I think that Churchill, with all his flaws, having saved civilisation as we know it, is probably sitting today in the lap of Christ.

He is where his heart was (Remember Dressden)

777

[Arjuna]

@ 777 - hello and totally agree with you! Dresden. Kill thousands of innocents ! What cheaper way or easier way to meet The Lord. Not.

777 - you know things and speak in parables that is lost in the majority on here.

Stay well

[777]

@Arjuna
TY

You will be safe !
Cause your heart goes each time into the right direction
So, stop al worrying !

<3. <3. <3

777

[Arjuna]

@ 777. Thank you and you know my impressions.

Thank you again

[Spence Tepper]

Dresden. Well the same could be said for the atom bomb.
Bombing civilians was Hitler's idea. Beautifully demonstrated by Adolf Hitler upon the British Isles for two solid years, killing 30,000 civilians, just a bit higher than the Dresden totals (25,000), starting with the blitzkrieg and augmented near the end of the war with the V2 missile attacks (which added another 9,000 casualties)..

The very cheeky British citizens described the severity of the attacks as nothing more than the weather, "It's been a bit blitzy of late."

But not of these compare to the 24 million human beings who died from Hitler's war.

Ending it even one month earlier would save hundreds of thousands of lives.

No, I'm sorry. Churchill was no saint. But if ever a sinner earned through their own courage and fortitude their salvation, or at least our forgiveness. It is Winston Churchill.

[Arjuna]

@ Spencer - you can forgive him. I was merely expressing my opinion. I am in no position to forgive as his deeds have lead him where ever he is now!

Have a good evening

[Spence Tepper]

Oops, I apologize. I only quoted the military casualties in that 24 million figure.

Add another 65 million lives lost among civilians, including war related famine and disease.

89 million lives. Five years.

That's just about 1.4 Million lives per month. Courtesy of Adolph Hitler.

So shortening the war even by one month would save 1.4 million lives.

This was WWII. For every life lost in Dresden, that meant saving 56 more.

Destroying the Dresden railway manufacturing and all surrounding community as sloppy as that was, became a strategic priority.

I'm thankful I didn't have to make such terrible decisions.

And it's easy to armchair quarterback from where we are, where family, children and friends aren't disappearing daily.

[Arjuna]

@ Spencer - chill dude! It’s in the past!

Have a look at you have done when you go within 😀

I’m sure I’ve done worse 😀

Chill- did these people - you mentioned his name that’s why I responded. Imagine if Churchill had defrauded finiancial companies and siphoned money - that would have been much worse - would you not agree. Lol

[777]

History TV
It was pure revenge - the war had already ended -
Generals didn't want that

Another case from where the heart is
These resulting karmas are less important than
where y already are

We can only judge about our own heart
and a tiny bit about others

Hence simran
It's SO difficult to become an ex-Archie Bunker
Simran can
It starts with flashes about your inner self
With a straight vertebra it does even more

777

[Arjuna]

@ even the English intellectual ms here in th U.K. discussed why??? Dresden
.
All sorted 777 - Kal sends his must trusted lieutenant to collect the soul. Very Nasty general and sticks soul into a more conducive “body” so that the “beatings” can be felt- better.

Watch and read how they ask for evidence lol. It should be fun 777

[Spence Tepper]

Hi 777
As you know
His Story is always a fictionalization...

Either way.
Yes the war was winding down, but the Gernans were intrenched, winter was approaching, more deaths...Keep this in mind. Every month, 1.4 Million more died.
It was in August of '44 that Hitler ordered the V2 bombing of london, and 1400 were launched there.

"Mr. Churchill disclosed in the House of Commons yesterday that the Germans are now using their new long-range rockets – the V2 – in their attacks on this county. In the last few weeks a number have landed at widely scattered points, but so far the casualties and damage caused have not been heavy.

The weapon, said Mr. Churchill, flies through the stratosphere, reaching an altitude of sixty or seventy miles, and because of its high speed – out-stripping sound – no reliable public warning can be given."
-Manchester Guardian, November 11, 1944.

In two months time Dresden would be bombed, but then another 1300 would be launched against Britain continuously through March of 1945.

Dresden bombing was in February 13-15. So at the time civilians in London area were still being bombed by these new and frightening V2 missiles.

It's easy to demonize someone. More difficult for some to acknowledge true heroism.

But, we all must make our best judgement about history.
I do believe that Churchill was a hero and that despite his flaws, history in the balance has and will continue to show this.

[Jen]

Hi Appreciative Reader,

I agree with, "a judicious mix of both these POVs, the inward-looking and the outward-facing, might be best".

Yes, being alert and aware and keeping a balance in life is very important. A good practice throughout the day is to find and hold a point of inner stillness within which helps to be genuinely receptive (from the Tao Te Ching).

[Tim Rimmer]

Hi Osho

Just been re-reading your latest info as posted by Brian

Once again cool to see that someone is getting up there and conversing with GS re the ‘new teachings’. Maybe novel approaches to business practice could also be incorporated?

I’m wondering what’s the motivation for your ongoing presentation and interpretation of this info? I ask this because in light of further comment on your post it would seem the vast majority of RSSB followers will simply not get it as they are all in struggle mode trying to get to where they already are - reminds me of what Shabistari said at the end of one of his poems ‘Fool ! he seeks the dazzling sun by the dim light of a candle in the desert’.

So reading your post further it seems on the face of it you, GS (and possibly a handful of others?) are the only ones on the same page?

Talk of two paths keeps adding to the confusion in my view. When he was conversing with you did he actually say ‘If someone is unable to understand the new path, why bother to explain? .. Let them carry on and when they finally get tired, they will begin to see what the truth is. Telling them prematurely does not help as it just becomes an idea to them, not a reality’.

Once again why is it that if such things were actually said, are people not coming up to the mike spontaneously and saying WTF? Two paths? Are RSSB followers so blinded by concept and belief that they are unable to comprehend even partially what the Guru who sits before them is actually saying? And why does he need to play both sides?

You say at the end of the post that there are no seekers of truth in the audience - well if that is indeed the case then that says heaps about the truth of RSSB at the present time….. and further any genuine truth seeker really has to find out all this for themselves. As J. Krishnamurti often said ‘truth is a pathless land’.

Here’s to truth.

[Joe]

Brian and Osho said, "He then explained in detail that surrender means to let go of the mind and to accept everything the master says, without fighting it."

I guess you guys realize that this is exactly what every authoritarian cult leader in existence says. Accepting everything the master says without fighting it also means not trying to understand it, not trying to determine if it is true, and not using what God gave you to help you be a human being.

It is through the struggle with our own mind that we learn to conquer it. And now this guy wants everybody to be some kind of mindless automan. This is so far from what legitimate spirituality is about that it is not even funny.

[Brian Hines]

Joe, I agree. I shared Osho Robbins' report because it was interesting, not because I agreed with Gurinder Singh's "my way or the highway" philosophy. Sometimes it is good to share what religious leaders say not because it is correct, or a good thing, but to show the dark side of blind belief. Which, as you observed in your comment, also is what authoritarians seek -- unquestioning obedience.

[Joe]

Brian, yes it is important to point out the dark side of blind belief. On that we agree. I'm just surprised this is still going on and that educated westerners would not be skeptical.

[Dungeness]

They set up numerous shell companies, which got loans from other companies owned/controlled by the Singh brothers and RSSB insiders.

Yes, thank you. It's a shadowy, criminal mess alright.
I'm still wondering about the complicity of GSD's wife,
his nephews, and others. Also, what about the promise
of an explanation. Why the delay?

Was he delegating signatory power while away on
tour? Who trusted whom? Who cooked the books?
When did he and others know? Why wasn't GSD,
certainly a savvy business intellect, more circumspect?

Not that any of it absolves him. I just think it needs a
legal resolution rather than a stampede to condemn
without all the facts. Especially bizarre is the notion
a legit GIHF shoulda seen it coming, then used super
powers to make it all go away.

[Dungeness]

It's easy to demonize someone. More difficult for some to acknowledge true heroism.

Thank you. The quiet heroism of those who resisted
in WW2 is an enduring fascination for me. Some
only realized belatedly they had to resist but still
did so in the end. Their stories resonate with me
every day.

[Arjuna]

Reading some of the posts above (later ones).

1. How can he be a cult leader???? He himself has said some of the best disciples of the Lord don’t even go and see him! Doesn’t a cult leader usually live with his flock so he or she Can control them! Fake news!

2. Fighting our mind with our own mind. Good luck with that one! Lol.
See you at the pharmacy getting your Prozac prescriptions or in a state in the US smoking weed- where it’s legalised off course. I say this - as the mid will sting back and you usually need medicine to survive 😀

[One Initiated]

Dear AR,

I wish you great inner times.
It's important to understand that it's simply amazing even without the visuals.
The whole 24 hours feels so content if you were inside for your fixed time.

I think it's not about the visuals it's about the feelings,
if one feels the whole blood of the body is rushing upwards (unrelated to heart's actions)
collecting and scintillating at the forehead,
one is experiencing the drastic changes in the frequency of the breathes,
experiencing the sublime feeling and the state of thoughtlessness,
the person is very much inside.

With the above definitions, If we are inside for the given time for the day,
you will realise that:
you can't even hate your haters,
you speak so less and so soft,
you will feel a lot and a lot of Love for HIM,
and also feel a lot of Love for your own ongoing state,
and the whole day feels and appears so beautiful despite the facts that it's ultra loaded with the material work.

If you are on Mac, you can press control+command+space to bring the native emoji window, and double click any emoji it will copy over here in comment box (or any other previous editor window) automagically.
If other OS, you can go to https://www.emojicopy.com/ and copy paste manually. The output is same in both.

Love to you brother.

[Spence Tepper]

I must concur with what One Initiated wrote.
We live for that.
Then there are the days where the door is shut.
And inner Master says
"I need you to do this work now.
I need you to experience this...
I need you to see it...
I need you to suffer with them now...
Go to this hospital and help them stop killing patients..
I need your to see it and remain quiet...
Then I need you to say it.... As their friend...
I need you to feel it....
So that you can help."

Then what we can do?
In gratitude to Master we review the studies,
We see for ourselves,
We listen to what others are saying
We say" yes, this isn't right "
And we take our place along side them to make change
And then the door is open again,
Master smiles and says
" OK, take a break "
And pulls us up like a wet rag doll through a luminous sea of love, into the roaring Tsunami of ecstatic and greater love
And bursting stars
Dark tunnels larger than this universe,
Into a court of angels.

Is all his gift.
So we do the work.
But if He trained me to read financial reports
To clean house in a healthcare system
Then points me to Brian's data
I'm still doing His work.
When I say, "Baba Ji!! Baba Ji!! WTF!"

We are ignorant when He wants us to be
Knowledgeable at His discretion.
And thankful, so thankful even for the loneliness and the days of stupidity, for the days of struggle, because the dinner will also be there at the end of the day.

[Spence Tepper]

The graphic depicting the five names and the regions is not actually correct. But the error is understandable.

The five names cover all the regions listen.
The True Name, the pure spirit is sourced in Anami. At the very source there is no sound, no emmination because the source and the subject become one. But that is the actual true name. The pure source that is only itself without impression.

There is a point where repeating the names is left behind, and that is where mind is left in the third region, just beyond Par Brahm.

There are still impressions and beautiful worlds there, but we go beyond mind at that stage. So no more repetition is needed.

But the names themselves call out to the whole range, including the very top.

And we hear the pure music of the Spirit there at the third region . But that is sourced in the true name, which is at the very top, where, one with the name, there is no sound. Is that the fifth region? Seventh? Eighth?

These are qualities of refinement of experience.

The names actually traverse the entire span from bottom to top.

[Brian Hines]

Spence, I didn't see any references or citations in your comment. How do you know that what you said is true? Is it something you have evidence for, or are you just repeating religious dogma from RSSB/Sant Mat?

[Spence Tepper]

Hi Brian
Good questions.
From Sar Bachan
"The first and foremost region, which is the highest and largest, which cannot even be called a stage or region, is that of Radha Soami, Alakh, Agam, or Anami. This is the beginning and end of everything and circmscribes all. The love and energy of this region vibrate at every place in Ansh Roop (part of the whole). In the beginning Mauj emanated from this region and came down in the form of Shabd. "

The Shabd, the true Name, is sourced here. But in this place it is beyond all qualities. It's the same Shabd just at its source, the same Name. This is where Spirit comes from. Before it is even uttered, when it then takes form as the creation and lower stages. At this stage, it is without qualities, neither sound nor light.

" Two stages below the Radha Soami region is that of Sat Nam or Sat Lok, which is highly effulgent and pure, and is the region of pure spirit and consciousness. It is the beginning and end of all creation below."

"The Ruler of this region is the True Lord and Creator. As the Sat Shabd manifested itself from this region.... It is not subject to destruction of change and is always the same. Saints are embodiments or incarnations of the Lord of this region."

You see what appears to be a contradiction in that the true Lord and Creator is two stages below the highest stage, but as Sar Bachan points out, they are actually indistinguishable.

It's one stage. Still Water and moving wave.

So the lord of Sat Nam is in fact the highest and true Lord and Creator. Calling out that name is calling out to everything above. There is no power above the True Creator except His source, of which he is indistinguishable.

But that consciousness is also an expression of the inexpressible. It's source is Alak, Agam, Anami. You can't really distinguish them though they are not exactly the same. Or they are the same, one in its active expression and one in its initial formless expression.

But there is no other name to call above this True Creator.

Once at that level you are simply merging into the source through the Creator as you go up. In those regions you really do cease to exist because you are beyond even the Creator. Not above, just past the innermost gate to the source.

If there were no creation at all, there would still be the waters of spirit (to use the Biblical terminology). To have a creation you must have a creator. The creator of all the creations is unchanging but remains an expression from an unchanging source.

They are indistinguishable. When you adress Christ you address the Lord.

When you adress the Lord, you address the very source of the Spirit.

And yes, my personal experience is subjective witness to this.

This is why as Sar Bachan states you can't actually call anything beyond the fifth stage a stage or region. The Source might be best.

[Arjuna]

@ Spencer - wow - I enjoyed reading that.

What the hell are we doing on this shit tip of an existence far from home - I wonder.

[Arjuna]

@ Spencer - permit me to say that you may be blowing your treasure on idiots on here! I appreciate the need for debate but some paths are lonely paths! Let them believe or not to believe as in the case athiests! I call them “devils in human form” DIHFs. DIHFs are good at twisting arguments - leave them to the Negative Power. It’s better equipped to demand payment and conduct corrections than you and I!!!

Take it easy dude - you have nothing to prove to anyone on here!

On that note take care and God Bless.

I’m outta here!

[Spence Tepper]

Arjuna
How many years have passed since I read anything as kind and touching as what you wrote?

That was worth it....

Thank you Bro.

[Osho Robbins]

Posted by: Joe | October 12, 2018 at 06:35 PM
(see above)

Brian and Osho said, "He then explained in detail that surrender means to let go of the mind and to accept everything the master says, without fighting it."

I guess you guys realize that this is exactly what every authoritarian cult leader in existence says. Accepting everything the master says without fighting it also means not trying to understand it, not trying to determine if it is true, and not using what God gave you to help you be a human being.

It is through the struggle with our own mind that we learn to conquer it. And now this guy wants everybody to be some kind of mindless automan. This is so far from what legitimate spirituality is about that it is not even funny.

Joe, to make it clear, He was not advocating or even favouring the "Path of surrender"

He just agreed with me, because of the way I phrased my question, that ultimately karni also leads to surrender.

Its a big jump to go from what he said to concluding that he said "You need to surrender"

On the contrary, he said surrender is almost impossible.

It is incorrect to conclude that he is therefore a cult leader who is asking his followers to be zombies and stop thinking. Joe, you then follow up by saying "every cult leader in history...."

as if he falls into that category because he just advocated surrender.

[Osho Robbins]

Accepting everything the master says without fighting it also means not trying to understand it, not trying to determine if it is true, and not using what God gave you to help you be a human being.

He does the opposite. He tells people to think.

He gets them to ask questions

[Arjuna]

@ Spencer - I just care too much about people. You have all the answers already to be fair and your responses (when I was an ass) have helped and even saved me. On the contrary I thank you.

If the likes of Brian and Osho has something to offer on what they write about - I would be the first one to abandon my beliefs on God. They offer nothing but straw. No doubt they are lovely people nevertheless - but n matters of helping us to find the ultimate answers to the questions which matter they are as blind as the scientists who have now hit a dead wall.

Lol Kal must be laughing his socks off - “come on kids - want to some more - think you know more than me and my father” to the scientists.

Let’s work, show love and become love and get the hell out of this mind matter when our time comes! God bless

[Osho Robbins]

@arjuna

Do you believe in god as a personality, a separate entity that can be identified,
Sant mat does not.
The same mat notion of god is not a personality.

God means the ONE.

In effect it means no god.

Because god had no form, no colour, no attributes.

It is the same as nonexistence

Many people think of a god with attributes who hears their prayers.

But that means a god with attributes

And a god with attributes does not meet the qualifications of god

Such a god cannot be eternal

Such a god is dualistic and therefore not god.

What kind of god do you believe in?

[Spence Tepper]

Ho Osho!

Couldn't help responding to your comments:
You wrote:
"God means the ONE.
In effect it means no god.
Because god had no form, no colour, no attributes."

Actually that isn't Sant Mat teachings. We have a Master and in meditation we commune with Him (or Her as the case may be).

The very reason, according to Sant Mat philosophy, that a Master comes here is precisely because we do need a personality, a face, someone to help us go from this place to that one.

So, both is true.

You can have a very personal relationship with God in the form of your Master within, and in the form of the physical master outside.

But the point is to submit to that, not create it with imagination or mind.
The point is to go beyond mind.
And the best way for many people is love: Guru Bhakti.

It's clearly not a path for you, Osho.
You need something more intellectual, more conceptual.
And as you can see, Master is obliging to your conceptual, intellectual mind.
I have much the same.
But he is also obliging to those who simply need to love.
If you engender that quality in yourself, you will find the One that way also.

Indeed, Arjuna is already there ahead of you and I.

Let's catch up to him!

[Arjuna]

@ Osho

"Do you believe in god as a personality, a separate entity that can be identified,
Sant mat does not.
The same mat notion of god is not a personality. *** Irrelevent question/statement -its a Power but we dont have the range of mind or bandwith to describe that power. We call it names as to identify It. Not to give it a personality. All humans have a name - however not all have personality. Sorry thats a Joke :-)****

God means the ONE. ***Yes it does!!! Every bit of this creation is teeming with GOD - however, whether we want to connect with it is another matter****

In effect it means no god.***No its doesn't - see point above****

Because god had no form, no colour, no attributes.****How do you know???? To a degree you are right! We are Blind but when we can see him- He is far from your description****

It is the same as nonexistence **** Again you appear to make a statement and then negate that statemnt as you did above with something like this! I guess you are right to a degree as your spiritual bandwith is weak (as is mine sometimes:-) He doesnt existence. But he actually does exist!
You may need your flip chart for tis one- I suggest drawing a venn diagram. Non existence on one side and existence on the other. Meeting in the middle - with a photo of a man scratching his head.****

Many people think of a god with attributes who hears their prayers. ***He hears everything and he knew you would ask Master questions just afer the big bang - well one of them lol****

But that means a god with attributes*** What do you mean by attributes- yes he can hear you. but His attribute is LOVE. Hope you did not mean that just because God hears - he has big fluffy ears lol. Its a Power. Imagine a power - a huge flash of light booom*****

And a god with attributes does not meet the qualifications of god ***Irrelevent statement - not even going to answer this! This is a typical example of Mind going into 6th gearto define something that is beyond it!!!!****

Such a god cannot be eternal ***Define infinity- some of the great minds of our time have tried that with mathematics and failed. However if you succeed - please make sure you apply for the Feild Mathematics Prize****

Such a god is dualistic and therefore not god. ***How can something be dualistic??? When its bloddy everywhere???? I really wish people would stop using this word (Dualistic) on this blog. It annoys me****

What kind of god do you believe in?" **** I believe in LOVE. And that may have been the secret that was kept away from us all. Love. I guess that intensity is what we all seek.

Normally I dont engage in this kind of debate- but you asked me questions - no doubt you will continue. But I believe in GOD! And nothing you or anyone says on this crap bit of rock hurtling through space (Sorry God for dissing the Rock) can take that away from me.

Dont get me wrong I like your questions - a few make me think. I wish you the best.

[Arjuna]

A story - a real one. Whilst in training in my first week we went boat training and I got shoved off. I panicked. And even though I could swim - the bang on my head confused me a bot. A colleague offered his hand out leaning in from the boat. It didnt mean anything to me!!

I was too busy trying to figh myself to see the hand (help) at first. he had to dive in to rescue me. Such is the plight of us all when it comes to God. I guess when God does in to help us - we have to pay a heavier price or surcharge for His actions in helping us.

Moral - lets all just try and Love each other. That alone is roundhouse kick to Kal and his merry demons. Lets not make their job earlier. We are all going back to the Father and we aint paying rent (karma) anmore!!!!

All te best.

[Osho Robbins]

@Spence
you wrote:.
"You can have a very personal relationship with God in the form of your Master within, and in the form of the physical master outside."

yes - but that is the whole point

sant mat DOES say that god has no form.

the master is just the MEANS - not god himself.

just as in zen it is said "The master is a finger pointing to the moon"

meaning don't grab hold of the finger and miss the moon.

[Osho Robbins]

@Arjuna
you wrote
"In effect it means no god.***No its doesn't - see point above****

Because god had no form, no colour, no attributes.****How do you know???? To a degree you are right! We are Blind but when we can see him- He is far from your description"

How do I know? Because that is what sant mat states. It's what guru granth sahib also states.
So not sure where you're coming from when you ask "How do you know?"

Do you claim it's not true, or do you believe it is true?

In the next sentence you say, "to a degree, you are right."

To what degree?
and how exactly am I not right 100% ?
to what degree am I not right?

Remember we are talking about GOD, not the master. Obviously the master has a form.

But I don't know any sant mat teaching that says GOD has a FORM. If you do, please share

You then go on to say "We are blind, but when we can see him....."

When we can see who? the formless God?

You CANNOT ever see the formless! I know it as a fact.

HOW do I know? Let me share my great secret.

Just pay attention.

because, it is FORMLESS. That means that god has NO FORM.

NO BOUNDARY. you cannot ever see a thing that has no boundary.

You only ever see the boundary, thats how you see the object (any object)

If that object suddenly becomes infinite, it will no longer have a form and it will be impossible to see it.

hence it is 100% impossible to see god. All you can see is form. never the formless.

and we have already agreed that god is formless, so cannot be seen.

Show me a person who claims to have seen the formless god.

[Arjuna]

@ Osho - it’s getting late here and I need sleep.

You ask who has seen the formless god??? You have my friend! You are from there. Now chill.

Night

[Spence Tepper]

Hi Osho
You wrote
"yes - but that is the whole point
sant mat DOES say that god has no form.
the master is just the MEANS - not god himself.
just as in zen it is said "The master is a finger pointing to the moon"
meaning don't grab hold of the finger and miss the moon."

In this case the finger is an extension of the moon.
And when you touch that finger, the moon comes up inside you.
At midnight, the sun rises.
In daylight, you are taken to the moon.

Don't worry about these things.
If the Master is the moon, then so are you!
If you can become One with God, then God is the personality valued Osho, too!

Good is not distant, Osho, nor without compassion. All the humanity you have comes from that. So give thanks. God deserves our thanks.

If you can only thank a human being, then you will need the human form of God.

If you could thank God in God 's true form, where is the need to discuss it?

Do I need to tell you His is a person for you to give humble thanks and devotion?

Or do you honor that submission within yourself for what is greater than you?

Do you have anything you live more than yourself?

[Arjuna]

Also that finger or the means is pointing to Himself.

Trust me he pay be the means but you need the means to protect you inside as well as you do outside in this world. You will know you are making progress when Kal wakes up and tries to stop you!!! Then you will grap onto that finger like it was God Himself!!! Ie the Guru!!!

Right I really need a few hours of sleep - enough of this!!! Just learn to love. And everything will fall into place! That’s what I try to do each day! Let’s be better versions of ourselves so that we may find the Ultimate Better Version of ourself!!!

Night

[Osho Robbins]

@Arjuna
When you say “it’s a power”, you have just given it a different name. Whot do you mean by power? You have just replaced “god” with “power”
This is a logical fallacy. Instead of dealing with the “God is not a personality” you have replaced this with the word “power” as if that means you no longer need to answer the question.
By saying “God is a power” you gloss over the real issue, which are
“Does he have attributes?”
“Does He have a shape?”
“Does He have a form?”
Unless you define the details of “A Power” you are simply hiding behind a word.
And you hate words like “dualistic” because they cause you to have to define your words and think about them, which you don’t want to do, because its much easier to just use abstract words and pretend you now understand because, well “He’s a power”

So, when, for example, you say “He hears my prayers” (i.e. He hears everything) does that mean that your god has a mind? Does he understand words? What language ? And don’t say “the language of love” as that is just adding more abstract ideas and not answering the question.

The truth is, you don’t have any answers, so are just writing anything, in the hope that it appears you have explained things.

You are not dealing with the core issues.

Is your god within time/space?
If he is, he is dualistic, as everything in time/space is dualistic.
If he is not, he doesn’t exist as we use the word “exist”.
If something is “nothing”, its another way of saying “doesn’t exist”
Imagine I told you I have an “invisible friend” who is “real” but has no attributes, you will call me insane.
If I now just label him “God”, suddenly, I am sane again?

You hide behind ideas like “your spiritual bandwidth is weak”
Please explain what you mean. What spiritual bandwidth, and how will you measure it?
There is no such thing, but it sounds good, and enables you to hide behind that idea.
Your venn diagram idea: they would be two circles with zero overlap.
If they overlap, that is a logical impossibility, as much as a “round square”
Things either EXIST or they DON’T EXIST. They can’t both exist and not exist.

You wrote:
What do you mean by attributes- yes he can hear you. but His attribute is LOVE. Hope you did not mean that just because God hears - he has big fluffy ears lol. Its a Power. Imagine a power - a huge flash of light booom

Then define what you mean by “can hear”
And “LOVE”. Don’t just use a word and pretend that means you’ve explained anything.
That is a logical fallacy. There is no substance to your explanation.

You go on to write

How can something be dualistic??? When its bloddy everywhere???? I really wish people would stop using this word (Dualistic) on this blog. It annoys me****

But you cant have it both ways. I accept that “God is everywhere”
Now understand what that means. EVERYWHERE means he has no shape and no form and necessarily cannot be seen because anything formless cannot be seen, or heard, as it has no attributes.
God cannot be everywhere (infinite) and still have a form.
It is a logical fallacy.
X is formless
Everything in the category “formless” cannot be seen
X therefore cannot be seen.
You cannot get away from that logic

You continue:

What kind of god do you believe in?" (me asking this) **** I believe in LOVE. And that may have been the secret that was kept away from us all. Love. I guess that intensity is what we all seek.
Normally I dont engage in this kind of debate- but you asked me questions - no doubt you will continue. But I believe in GOD! And nothing you or anyone says on this crap bit of rock hurtling through space (Sorry God for dissing the Rock) can take that away from me.

Again a logical fallacy. You just replaced the word GOD with the word LOVE and you think that magically makes sense now. This is delusion.
You don’t normally engage like this because by not engaging, you can remain in your delusion, but think you have it all figured out.
Unclear thinking keeps a person in delusion.
When you force yourself to be clear, you cant remain deluded.
But delusion is comfortable for those who are deluded. They can continue to believe in whatever they want, without having to explain or examine it

[Osho Robbins]

@Spence

I wrote
"sant mat DOES say that god has no form.
the master is just the MEANS - not god himself.
just as in zen it is said "The master is a finger pointing to the moon"
meaning don't grab hold of the finger and miss the moon."
Your reply:
In this case the finger is an extension of the moon.
And when you touch that finger, the moon comes up inside you.
At midnight, the sun rises.
In daylight, you are taken to the moon.

I guess you’re trying to say “the master (finger) is an extension of God (moon)”
And that when you touch the master (connect with him), god appears inside you
However, our topic is: that god has no form
This is irrelevant to that topic.
Of course the ‘master’ has a form, but we are concerned with god.
So back to my original premise, that god has no form, according to sant mat. Do you refute this statement, as earlier you disagreed with it.

[Arjuna]

@ Osho - I will continue no further with you! This path isn’t for you - Spencer has said this already!!!

The world owes us nothing but yet you debase my aruguments and twist them appearing to be intellectual! That’s bloody YOUR ego!!!

Love is bloody everything and off course it’s a word !!! Lol. How was I supposed to describe him by drawing a picture!!!

Have fun talking to your own mind - I’m sure it will lead you home!

Good bye and all the best !!

[Osho Robbins]

Typical response from a believer.

the topic is not whether this path is for me or not!
And you cannot quote spence as evidence!

I have simply shown your position to be untenable, and now you want to run away.

If you believe I am incorrect in the statements I have made, make your arguments.

just saying that it's my ego and that love is everything, is not an argument.

the question is this:

do you care if what you believe is actually true?
if you do, then you need to examine it closely, not just believe blindly.
if you dont, then it's fine

most believers dont care - they just want to believe as it gives them false comfort.

[777]

Show me a person who claims to have seen the formless god.
Posted by: Osho Robbins | October 14, 2018 at 04:27 PM

You can BE it

777

[Arjuna]

@ Osho - you have shown to me - the true grip of your mind on you!

I believe- so you really think I would share valuable treasure with you on a blogging site.

You have proved nothing. As you don’t know me.

However I wish your His Grace!