RSSB guru agrees to answer questions about his financial dealings

Well, this is a bit of progress.

The guru of Radha Soami Satsang Beas, Gurinder Singh Dhillon, says that he will answer questions about the seemingly shady financial dealings he, his family, and possibly RSSB itself (a charitable organization) have been involved in.

Today someone sent me a link to a story in The Indian Express, "Upcoming payouts a possible trigger for Singh brothers feud." Excerpt:

According to a source privy to the development, some senior members of the sect recently asked Dhillon about his reaction to various news reports regarding the Singh brothers. The source said that Dhillon told these members that he has answers to all the questions that have been raised and he will give the answers himself at an opportune time. Dhillon told the senior members that spiritual and business aspects of our lives are separate and that devotees should focus on the former and not get diverted from it.

The RHC Holding as well as the RSSB did not respond to the queries sent by The Indian Express. Another source — involved with RSSB’s corporate dealings — added that Dhillons have been in business with Singh brothers for a very long time. “Take the example of Luminous Holdings, which was set up in 2002, and has Babaji himself as a director. Moreover, his wife Shabnam Dhillon is the other director of this company,” he said.

According to documents with corporate affairs ministry, Luminous Holdings had a long term borrowing of Rs 6.5 crore as on March 2017. Of that, around Rs 4.4 crore came from Delhi-based Fern Healthcare. In June, a probe by law firm Luthra and Luthra found that Singh brothers moved about Rs 475 crore from Fortis to various private companies. Fern Healthcare was one of them.

I've got a couple of thoughts about this. 

(1) Indian business publications have been reporting on the tangled web of financial dealings involving the Singh brothers and the guru's family for a long time. To date, every story I've read has said that RSSB and the guru refused to comment to a reporter. So it's odd that now Gurinder Singh Dhillon is saying he'll answer questions "at an opportune time."

That time was quite a while ago. So every day the guru isn't willing to stand up in front of a press conference and answer pointed questions about his financial involvements is a day people are going to be wondering, "What does Gurinder Singh Dhillon and Radha Soami Satsang Beas have to hide?

(2) As I noted in a recent post, apparently the guru has never read a book published by the spiritual organization that he heads. "Honest Living" makes clear that, contrary to what Gurinder Singh is claiming, actually the spiritual and business aspects of our lives are closely related. If you do bad stuff in your business life, your spiritual life is going to suffer -- even, or especially, if you are a guru who is considered to be God in Human Form by the RSSB teachings.

(3) Yesterday I shared a CNBC TV 18 video of a program where there was a call for the RSSB charitable trust to be audited, to clear up questions about whether the Dhillon family, or anyone else, has been benefitting from a co-mingling of RSSB money and private money.

If RSSB and Gurinder Singh Dhillon have nothing to hide, they should be pleased to open the books of RSSB to inspection by a independent auditor. And the Dhillon family's own finances also should be audited so questions about their dealings with financial entities involving the Singh brothers can be cleared up. 

The Business Insider story ends with these passages, which show the need for an investigation into whether the Dhillon family or RSSB benefitted from the purported illegal financial transactions cited by Shivinder Singh. Sunil Godhwani is reportedly the guru's "right-hand man," and is a RSSB insider.

Meanwhile, PTI reported on Tuesday that Shivinder has alleged in his petition before the NCLT that his elder brother Malvinder perpetrated illegal financial transactions, forged Shivinder’s wife’s signature and led the company into an unsustainable debt trap.

Malvinder and Godhwani “used their respective positions to perpetrate or cause others to perpetrate illegal financial transactions and various acts of mismanagement by and through RHC, leading to massive losses to RHC and its subsidiaries, and a depletion of the wealth,” the petition said, according to PTI.

Comments

[Spence Tepper]

RSSB invests all its profit money (donations) in Religare, where Baba Ji is a principle and also had his private holdings. Religare uses its wealth to leverage credit and along with the funds from Ranbaxy sale, buys Fortis. Fortis loans money to businesses owned by Shabnam,Baba Ji's wife, with no expectation of repayment.

Embezzlement. It's been done.

[PJ]

It's a simple question -- did his nephews funnel company funds into shell companies of a relative i.e. GSD's wife. If so, that is embezzlement. I have no idea whatsoever whether they did or not, but it seems that this is not being disputed in this case.

[PJ]

In fact, reading more closely, GSD is actually a director in this Luminous Holdings. So there should be a recorded reason why that company wanted to borrow the funds, how this was approved, and whether any interest was charged or repayment arrangements made.

[Jesse]

Spencer, you are making things up and extracting from the evidence far more than what is actually there I think.

Weren't you the one who used this same evidence just weeks ago to say that this was all for helping poor African children with HIV?

I think the whole thing is obviously shady too, but some of your specifics seem to have been extrapolated from something other than these articles.

[Brian Hines]

Spence, I've been enjoying your analysis of RSSB/Dhillon family finances. This makes sense, but I do have a question. How do we know that RSSB invests donations, and perhaps other money, in Religare? This is something I hadn't heard of before, though I may have missed it.

[Spence Tepper]

Hi Jesse

The original article I read gave some details from the Luthra and Luthra audit and confirmed that the Singh Brothers had made unsecured loans while at Fortis, and in violation of company policy. They had also made loans to cover the loan payments of other loans.
That's illegal, but I thought maybe there was a good reason for it.

At the time all I could imagine was that this was done to help struggling hospitals survive.

And I wrote at the time, in defense of the Singh Brothers, that you would have to prove they were loaning themselves or RSSB that money, or have some connection to it in order for this to be corruption. I hadn't seen that proof yet and I challenged anyone to generate it.

Thanks to Brian, I then read a series of exposes showing that in fact some of these loans were to companies owned by Sabnam Singh, Baba Ji's wife, and further they used their Religare holdings which also had investments in these companies as collateral. That's embezzlement. That's when my eyes were opened.

It's already a fact also that RSSB invests its money in Religare, just as the church might invest in a mutual fund.

But it is illegal for a Church board member to run that fund, make loans to other church board members ' companies they have stock in, and then cover the loan payments with new loans, basically shuffling loans.

[Spence Tepper]

Hi Brian

Yes I apologize for making statements without references of evidence. Some of these are my deductions from limited information.

RSSB charter places all funds into the Guru's management, as you already know, so it's difficult without any records to see how he moves his money into an investment vehicle. How are these moved into Religare? Through a private asset holding company owned by Baba Ji that generates no public records. It's called Logos Holding Company.

But the movement of money can be seen here

http://archive.indianexpress.com/news/sebi-nod-for-radha-soami-satsang-beas/722630/

[Spence Tepper]

The evidence linking the unsecured Singh loans to the Dillons

"Over the years, the brothers’ main holding company loaned about 25 billion rupees ($360 million) to the Dhillon family and property businesses largely controlled by them, according to documents and people familiar with the matter. Some of those outlays were financed with money borrowed from the Singhs’ listed companies, and when combined with other Singh investments gone bad threw their empire into a debt spiral, a Bloomberg News analysis of public records and interviews with 10 people familiar with the finances of both camps showed."

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/features/2018-08-16/billionaires-and-the-guru-how-an-indian-family-lost-2-billion

[Spence Tepper]

RSSB link and Religare.

1. Legally all RSSB/Dera holdings are in the Master's name.
2. Money appears from private Dillon holding companies invested into public Religare, giving Baba Ji power to assign family members to run each Religare owned or major - investor company... Including Fortis...and the Singh brothers...

https://www.business-standard.com/article/markets/the-dhillon-factors-in-religare-115093000975_1.html

And...

Singh brothers found guilty of fraud here..

https://www.livemint.com/Companies/vhjD6e9ZfHpGkkV0myRUaP/Singh-brothers-are-to-blame-for-Fortis-financial-mismanagem.html

[Spence Tepper]

Hi Jesse

When I thought the Singhs were loaning money to distressed hospitals I could excuse it.

When I read the articles Brian linked, the above, and others, I realized they were siphoning funds to their own family.

From noble Robin Hoods, to just Hoods.

[Spence Tepper]

All Dera and RSSB are legally in the Master's name. That included donations..
How to move the liquid capital? Through the Master's private holding company, where millions appear.

http://archive.indianexpress.com/news/sebi-nod-for-radha-soami-satsang-beas/722630/

[Spence Tepper]

More about those fortis siphoned millions

https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/business/india-business/systemic-lapses-found-in-inter-corporate-borrowings-fortis-healthcare/articleshow/64759139.cms

[Spence Tepper]

Now Fortis is suing the Singh Brothers for embezzling $60M to family companies.

https://www.ft.com/content/262fed74-79df-11e8-bc55-50daf11b720d

[Jesse]

Spencer, I've read all these before, but I don't remember them stating what I believed you claimed in an earlier comment, which was that RSSB in some way was directly involved.

I suspect RSSB funds were used for personal gain by the Singh Mafia, but nothing so far has shown that. The flow chart that shows all that money moving around showed it all going into Gurinder's pockets. Beyond him being a recipient via all the shell companies, what evidence is there that RSSB money and/or property was part of these transactions?

[Jesse]

I can't get over this statement

"Dhillon told the senior members that spiritual and business aspects of our lives are separate and that devotees should focus on the former and not get diverted from it."

In one sense, he's implying that spirituality should take precedence over worldly affairs. But being that he's saying that in response to the fact that his whole family is under some sort of investigation for "serious fraud", he's also implying that it doesn't matter what you do. Rape, rob, steal, kill. None of that matters as long as you do ritual meditation for a couple hours a day. Ritual meditation which includes imagining this possible criminal.

Seriously, people. Get out of this stupid Indian yoga cult or join one without a guru at least. It's so disgusting and stupid. You'd be better off being the most ridiculous kind of wiccan pagan than wasting time worshipping a sociopathic crook.

[Spence Tepper]

Hi Jesse. You have to read between the lines. Here Baba Ji sold the Dera Hospital at Mohali to himself...

https://www.cnbctv18.com/views/the-devotion-of-the-singh-brothers-of-fortis-runs-deep-into-their-businesses-63575.htm

[Bombay Blonde]

@ Spencer : That the Satsang funds have been embezzled is a strong possibility, but let the investigations start. But of course, this is India and vote bank politics will decide whether the Beas Trust will be eventually opened for audit by the government sleuths or not. Anyone who knows the inner workings of Beas knows that the Beas board was dissolved before the inception of Logos Holdings. Gurinder assumed autonomous power over the functioning of the Beas Trust. Charan's old guard was ousted in favour of Gurinder's new band of thieves and currently, the General Secretary of Beas is a greedy swine fondly called " Mithu " who is famous for being caught time and again by GSD himself for internal misappropriations. He's the guy who has made himself wealthy through commissions, all kinds of cheating and profiteering off the construction in Beas and the other centres in India.

Malvinder and Shivinder's split will only further reveal the rot that has come to be. I think Shivinder has struck an internal deal with GSD, the protective defence of GSD is just a financial arrangement. It will come as no surprise if GSD takes the mic and gives some contradicting statements about his finances, then tops it off with an abdication. That's his style, he'll want to deflect from his wrongdoings and will want to create an uproar within the uneducated multitudes who will be fed with stories of his humility. Should this happen, Shivinder's mother-in-law ( Rajshree ) or his wife ( Aditi ) will be the interim successor. Basically, Shivinder has bailed out Gurinder and Beas will go back to Charan's bloodline. The family feuds will go on for years and serve as entertaining reminders of one of the biggest coups in Corporate India. Gurinder will move lock, stock and barrel to Singapore or London.

Sorry, I insulted the pig species. Master Pig, please forgive me.

[Spence Tepper]

Hi Jesse and Brian! I've been looking through stuff to nail down where I got the RSSB / Religare connection and honestly, there isn't anything firm, just a lot of suspicious stuff.

I try to be scrupulous in my comments, but I overstated the case. The entire case involving Baba Ji, however, is fully documented. He's got his and in every possible financial cookie jar! So, appreciate the questions and feedback...

[Bombay Blonde]

#GrabYourPopcorn

[Spence Tepper]

Thank you Bombay, for filling in the holes in my understanding.

[Jesse]

Bombay Blonde, India is generally pretty open to female spiritual leaders, but there seems to be a bit of a difference between the groups who have them vs those which are traditionally patriarchal.

Do you really think RSSB could have a female leader? It seems to be too great a departure that would shock the sangat. But maybe I misread the community's social leanings.

[Bombay Blonde]

@ Jesse : I have posted the news I have. I do believe that Shivi was set to succeed GSD, but these revelations have severely dented Shivi's reputation in Beas. Of course, Beas is typically patriarchic, but it would be a strategic move to induct a female. Women in these roles are a new phenomenon. The Nirankari sect has just anointed a female Guru-head, who is the daughter of the Guru died in a car crash in Canada. ( His wife had succeeded him, but she died a few weeks ago. ) GSD had joked about the " gaddi " going to a " daughter " in the family. Funny GSD had often said that he wants his sons to lead " normal lives " ... trust me, no ones wants the job.

The seniors at Beas though subservient to GSD, will never accept Shivi. Not for now at least. I heard this from a friend whose Aunt is a permanent resident of Dera. But the " gaddi " must still come home, and the only way to secure that is to give it to the women who aren't tainted by the financial mess.

I don't know if you are aware, but Malvinder's wife wasn't really a true believer, she ( Japna ) was hardly into the Mat. On the other hand, Aditi ( Shivi's wife ) and his mother-in-law were ardent believers. Aditi has been giving Satsang in Beas for a while. In my opinion, the role of the female " Satsang Karta " is exemplified with Aditi at the helm of it ... but I don't think it is genuinely progressive, it's superficial, just like everything else.

[One Initiated]

In due time,
this all will be converted into gratification towards the Master.

Realisation, even in the material world, will happen.

[Bombay Blonde]

I support the role of women but I will not endorse any anthropomorphous RS Guru-form. I'm just making this clear as I suspect One Initiated is lurking somewhere and will be getting ready to fling his " feminist " card at me ...

[Jesse]

"In due time,
this all will be converted into gratification towards the Master."

One, simply the proximity to crime and the time wasted chasing money makes him ineligible to be anyone's guru. Gurinder Dhillon is a scam artist who inherited a really lame religion. He's not a saint.

Selling spoiled medicine to epileptics makes him a bad human being. If your father did the same, hopefully you'd help put him in prison. Do the same to your evil guru.

[Bombay Blonde]

@ Jesse : Nothing will shock the multitudes more that Gurinder's abdication. The sect has swelled and gathered more followers in the uneducated masses who will beat their chests like they did when Charan passed. We can place a fresh water fish up there, it is the " gaddi " that is worshipped. The educated ones who understand the original teachings are few and far between, the newbies have been given another version of Sant Mat and only God ( the Original Guy ) knows what they've been telling the unsuspecting Chinese ...

[Bombay Blonde]

@ One Initiated : Realisation in the material world has already happened, you are twelve years late to the party. Gurinder realised how important the material world is fairly early in his Guru-dom and he's made the most of it.

[Bombay Blonde]

@ Spence : I hope you know that Gurpreet Singh Dhillon ( also known as Garry ) is Gurinder's older son.

[Vicky]

I love 777 and One Initiated.

[One Initiated]

Blonde,

Babaji didn't have to realise, HE knows how important the material world is
and keeps working for the betterment of these 7 chakra species,
irrespective of your liking or disliking.
What all HE is doing will be realised to the poor skeptics at the dusk.
You would be amazed when you will encounter the truth.

Jesse,

You can try to be a little sincere when communicating, it's only going to help you.
You got a chance to speak to the Master,
it's much more than what an abusive person like you deserve.

Do you know how many cases are there who got affected by the drugs in question ?
If there is actually a bad medicine, it shall be banned, there is no second thought in it.
However, the USA based corporates, for numerous years, have been using India only to dispose it's
worst policies and products on the poor people of India and other south asian countries,
just for earning huge profits.

Do you know that Johnsons and Johnsons's evil hip replacement product WAS approved by FDA ?
And later it was banned - and still shipped to India and it has been implanted to many poor Indian fellows who are now suffering the excessive Cobalt and Chromium count in their blood serum.
Should FDA be responsible for that - how could it approve such bad thing ?

[Bombay Blonde]

@ Vicky : That's great, we love them too, we just don't love what they're on to. So, if you're not a trolling fanboy and have some facts that would put 777's and One Initiated's sacred Master in a better light, please write in.

[PJ]

"I do believe that Shivi was set to succeed GSD"

It's preposterous and beyond arrogant that yet another family member is being lined up to succeed.

Doesn't anyone read the books or understand what a Master is supposed to be anymore?

I should have walked the moment I learned that GSD was Charan's nephew.

[Spence Tepper]

Hi Bombay
Yes I read something of this... He and his brother have been assigned major leadership roles in the compsnies, and I believe he is now the CEO of Religare Health Trust, among his other jobs.

The pattern seems to be port money from the trusts into Religare as a vehicle for purchasing land and businesses (or from the sons or the wife), then assign the sons or wife leadership roles in those companies.

This would suggest they are reasonable sources for investigation.

In the Luthra and Luthra report they say they didn't choose to follow the illegal loans to their ultimate destination. That's an avenue for investigation.

Hi PJ
The use of family to run the organizations (including RSSB) is a clear pattern for Baba Ji. As the business entities all have financial ties to him, and mostly separated by only one or two people, it is reasonable to presume this is how RSSB must move, as it also represents a significant revenue stream.

[Spence Tepper]

Hi Bombay. Yes I read the sons are in control of the Fortis operations arm, Religare Health Trust and others...

[Bombay Blonde]

@ PJ : My friend, at least you walked. I know dozens who are drowning in depressive delusions.

[Bombay Blonde]

@ PJ : The " gaddi " has to remain within the family. It's a tax-free power centre and now almost a quasi-religion with an unlimited supply of funds. I'd be very surprised if GSD reads this comment and proves me wrong.

[Arjuna]

A lot of speculation - but if RSSB took donations from the poor (and don’t blame them for donating) - that would piss me off!

Poor - educated or not educated I’ve seen the lot - take money which is not theirs!!! Our prisons are filled up to the brim with educated smart crooks and the poor alike!

[Appreciative Reader]

Quote Brian : RSSB guru agrees to answer questions about his financial dealings --- Dhillon told these members that he has answers to all the questions that have been raised and he will give the answers himself at an opportune time

And who better than you, Brian, to ask those questions?!

You’ve been one of them. You’ve actually written some of their books. Thanks to this long-running blog, you have a certain cred with those with a rationalist bent of mind. And now, thanks to these skyrocketing eyeball numbers, I suppose you qualify as a (more or less) mainstream ( -ish! :-) ) writer/journalist, and one who is uniquely placed to write on these particular matters.

All serious journalists always take into account all sides of some story. Thus far we’ve only accessed public sources here on this blog, along with your own opinions, as well as the unsupported words (on both sides of the issue) from sundry commenters and contributors here.

Perhaps it is time now that you started contacting these people (by mail, or over phone, whatever works) with specific questions to the RSSB folks?

If they are honest, these RSSB people, then their best bet would be to cleanly and clearly engage with these questions now. And their first-hand answers to the questions you pose would make your articles, and the discussions here, that much more compelling.

On the other hand, if they’ve actually been deliberately lining their pockets and falsifying information, these RSSB people -- as seems likely, given these articles, but of course one can’t be absolutely sure -- then I suppose they’d be wise NOT to engage with you, since you, with your insider knowledge of how the organization works, are better placed than most to see through their lies (if, that is, they choose to respond with lies).

[Jesse]

"we love them too"

Speak for yourself, Bombay Blonde.

It's not in my best interest to love people who try to further their cult's ambitions in light of new facts pertaining to the leader's corruption. And I'll repeat, the fact that Gurinder is even doing business at all after becoming massively rich makes him a hypocrite of the highest order. His followers who know about these dealings are mostly hypocrites too.

Dunbar's number is just fine for me. Universal love is like pouring water into your cup of coffee.

[[email protected]]

“Praise The Lord,......I saw The Light!”
https://youtu.be/on0gN_UC5C8

Seems lotsa others are seeing the Light as they jump off the RSSB ship.

For those who have not jumped off yet, I suggest cashing in your RSSB Stocks & Bonds, as the Interest Rate is about to take a dive.

Also change your Wills to not include RSSB now that we know the Dhillon family pockets the assets and money.

Cheers and Tears,
Jim Sutherland

[Dungeness]

I try to be scrupulous in my comments, but I overstated the case. The
entire case involving Baba Ji, however, is fully documented. He's got
his (h)and in every possible financial cookie jar!

Spence, how refreshing to hear a comment walk-back. This is
a rather complex financial web after all. GSD has agreed to
answer questions about those "hands in the cookie jar" too.
Who knows, there may be exculpatory testimony.

Still, it's difficult to imagine the vitriol diminishing. So many of
the commenters have carefully, dispassionately studied all
available evidence and are in a position to know definitively
of the vileness of these perp(s). Wow, I've even heard a cry
of "mafia".

It's reminiscent of chants of "Lock him/her up". The din always
seems to come from rabble who forget what fairness and
due process mean.

[Arjuna]

@ Jim - then my initiation is useless. I will go within like a solider - Eyes Front!

[Bombay Blonde]

@ Jesse : I have no universal love happening at my end, though I look upon One Initiated and 777 just as I look upon the believing multitudes - I can't get myself to dislike them for their ignorance. I have extended family who have the same set of beliefs like OI and 777 ... that would better explain my tolerance, or patience.

Let's not forget that OI and 777 stick around even when they have no facts to counter the arguments here. That's why I think that they stand a far better chance at questioning GSD's thuggery, at some point, as compared to the head-in-the-sand ostriches. Their dogmatic fodder is an embarrassing reminder of the Old Beas Mat and I'm often amused at my RS ex-self, and the craziness she believed in. It's like spotting your ex and rolling your eyes while your brain whispers " what were you thinking " ... :)

[Nidhi]

I really do not know why did you deviate from the path and believe me I don't even care to know. But let me tell you that one thing is very much clear from your antics that You NEVER were a follower or a believer of the Sant mat path. You are fake or I should say you are just an agent of KAL, who has been assigned with this dirty job of defaming the revered Guru. Wait for your time to be over you will have to pay for your actions and people like you can never enter the gates of heaven. You are KAL yourself and you want to deviate others as well. Shame on you!!

[One Initiated]

Vicky,

Glad to observer your love for the Master.
Wish you a lot of Shabd and amazing time in meditation.

~OI

[Jesse]

Nidhi, we may be agents of "KAL" but Gurinder Dhillon is the Satan the devil.

He's the worst human being who has ever walked the earth, and you should not leave valuable possessions or your children alone with him. I advise being armed with powerful weapons if you think Gurinder Dhillon is near you because he is dangerous.

If you people wanna keep calling this punjabi dude "God" then I'm gonna have to take the opposite stance until we meet at the middle and accept that he's a normal guy who made big mistakes.

[Brian Hines]

Nidhi, how do you know I'm "Kal"? (basically, the Devil, or Negative Power)

Here's another idea that I like a lot better. Maybe I'm doing the will of Sat Purush (basically, God), because "Sat" means truth, and I'm communicating truths about RSSB, the Singh brothers, and Gurinder Singh Dhillon.

How can truth be something bad? Think about that for a moment. Do you really want to be part of a religion, or philosophy, that worships falsehoods and untruth?

What price is paid by turning away from truth? We all have to answer that question for ourselves. My answer is, "too high a price."

[Spence Tepper]

All I can see is they he spends 80% of his time in acquiring wealth and 20% with his disciples. That's shameful.

He is no Sat Guru.

[Spence Tepper]

At the very least that is a terrible rule model for true Seva.

A true Sat Guru gives their life, 24/7 to their duty, to the seekers and initiates. Not to bricks, concrete and speculation loans.

[Spence Tepper]

And I believe Brian is right.
Those of you who talk about the day of death are clinging to the Guru to save your neck. All your arguments are selfish.

Brian had nothing to gain trekking the truth.

His love of truth is self less.

He is a better Teacher.

[Spence Tepper]

I would rather burn in hell for being honest than to turn the other way when a powerful thief steals from millions.
He feeds thousands a day at dera, and robs more of their homes, and millions of their dignity as human beings.

[Jesse]

Glad to see you're coming around and admitting the basic faults of this guru, Spencer.

Take away all the specifics about corruption, the truth of RS philosophy and whatnot, and we're still at the same spot, which is that this man is not dedicated to the spirituality he's been selected to teach, nor is he dedicated to his initiates.

There are gurus who teach very similar methods and who are far more approachable and also devoted to their students. Maybe you'll stumble across one of them someday.

[Jesse]

"He feeds thousands a day at dera"

Yeah, with the money they gave him. Really they just feed themselves.

[Jen]

You guys and gals are really having fun, so much self righteous indignation. I wonder if you really care about the sick and poor in India. Those satsangis who are suffering need to have faith in someone, something. Its the same with the desperate people in the world who belong to all sort of religions, they do that because it helps them to survive their difficult lives.

I've removed myself from Sant Mat and I'm not bitter and twisted, in fact I'm happy I was a satsangi. I still follow the four principles and in fact seeing that the guru is not an enlightened being has created more of an understanding that the spiritual path is not about giving one's spiritual power away to another being, a better goal in life is self discovery.

[Jesse]

Jen, that was pretty self righteous comment about self righteousness.
I'm sure you're gonna be the next mother Theresa since you obviously care so much about satsangis in poverty even though RSSB is famous for being a middle class religion.

[Jen]

"Jen, that was pretty self righteous comment about self righteousness."

LOL Jesse, I do love you, thanks for quashing my self righteousness !!

[Jesse]

Jen, you're not here making predictions much as far as I can tell, but what do you think will happen?

Gurinder is vindicated and RSSB remains as it was, Gurinder is busted and the sect crumbles, Gurinder already lost trust? Something totally different?

[Jen]

Jesse, I have been going through the process of disentangling from Sant Mat ever since I started reading Brian's blog. It took many years for me to see through my beliefs, my faith, and for some reason I am not surprised at the way Gurinder is revealing so much nowadays in the strange things he says.

The true believers will always be clinging to some kind of religion and I can't blame them because there is much suffering in life. I really do prefer to have my own practice of trying to be present in the moment and thats all I can do. I'm getting old now and thats quite confronting and perhaps thats why I even have compassion for Gurinder, even if he is just a player and raking in the money, thats his game. We are all just players in this game of life.

[Spence Tepper]

Hi Jen
You wrote
"Those satsangis who are suffering need to have faith in someone, something."

I absolutely agree! And if through an unalloyed love of his form, they experience love for the formless, absolutely. This is the path to Spirit, wrapped in culture and bound by our limited understanding.

To follow the path is good in any form.

But as we grow we see things from different angles.

"The opposite of one truth may not be false. It may be another truth."
Niels Bohr

Tonight I understand this better.

And I do not wish to be part of a system that moves the wealth of a nation into one clever investor's hands, even as he teaches the wisdom of ages.

Because the Path is not a part time thing. It's 24/7 love and devotion for the Spirit, our true Master. Not tainted with love of material things and power, but quite the opposite.

So a part time guru, however helpful he may have been pointing to the true Christ, the Spirit, but who also pulls wealth from the entire economy into his personal hands, cannot take me to my destination. His interests are divided, and he has not practiced that 24 hour a day unalloyed devotion to his own Master that is the hallmark of a true Sant Sat Guru.

But just as there are copies, so then I believe, there is the real. And I choose to withdraw and move beyond to another understanding, based only upon truth.

My true Master, Christ, can take me through however many classes He/She sees fit.

I won't complain that this school has several rooms, several teachers. When one semester ends I'm thankful to my teachers and ready for the next. I now see how Brian enjoys different teachers without anger, without expectation, without hope or disappointment. I think that is my next class!

Perhaps for me that is a greater appreciation for what Brian teaches. The joy of just being, without having to be anything, without living in fear of death or damnation. To love this moment as complete and holy all its own. I think that is greater respect for this creation and our true Father in whatever His or Her true form really is. It could just be this moment. This formless moment I submit all my love and gratitude to, for it is rich with life and intention.

[One Initiated]

Spence,

"He is no Sat Guru."
But the Christ has not told you that.
Actually with your current state of mind, you are against Christ as well, however, you are in misconception that you are not.
You will know it one day.

Actually it's not the Master, but probably you who intrinsically love money more than the Master and your thoughts are not letting you think about Shabd and overwhelmed with the money talks.

Love is the essence of Spirituality not money.

Had you actually experienced Shabd and HIS inner grandeur,
you would have been in different state.

Jesse wrote: "Gurinder already lost trust" - trust of ?
Only of those who couldn't build any inner connection,
and are always moved by the outer world's proceedings,
which Master carry out with the longer vision and not to please the poor disciples,
who are already blind by the mind - and try to validate the Master,
who have never been able to validate themselves.

Neither the Master nor HIS disciples who are in Love could care less for those who go astray,
because they know the curtain for you guys will be raised on your death - only.
For you have tightly shut your doors even from outside,
let alone getting inside is even a far possibility for you.
At death you will repent and in a big way, new birth will be given, and you gotta
start all this over again - in next birth money won't matter for you.
Basically you just completely and absolutely wasted your current birth.

Actually it's not those who have realised by HIS grace,
sub-consciously the skeptics are waiting for the death - because they want to know the truth,
not the truth of the Shabd - but truth of the worldly matters.

[Jesse]

One, you're not the first or last person who will join a cult.
Some day, when you have real issues in life and the whole facade is completely blown away, you'll curse that fake guru too.

Lying satsangis of the most brainwashed and crazy sort like yourself do it all the time.

[Spence Tepper]

Hi One

I appreciate your accusations and judgments, but you are no mind reader.

I make no judgments of you.

But the well documented accounts, that every adult is responsible not to ignore.

[Jesse]

One thing that I find funny is that people here have whined about my tone, but nobody seems to have the most miniscule intuition to sense that One Initiated is the archetypal manipulative creep trying to pull people back into the cult.

Some people find the cults they've left to be extremely emotionally damaging, and having someone like One to come here and guilt trip those who left is about as low as it gets, and more abusive than anything I've ever said (except to One and Appreciative Reader but that's different.) Yet he gets a pass because he throws around words like "love" and "meditation" so it's less offensive on the surface. People who have bad intentions for you don't tell you that. Maybe One is so lost in the cult that he doesn't know it. I was there years ago myself, but it's still bad and slimy whether he's aware or not.

People are so addicted to happy words that when being lied to, deceived, and asked to literally give their life up to a conman by slimy creeps like One Initiated, they take the lying snakiness over the blunt realism because realism isn't pretty. The words of serpents are pretty. They offer false hopes and dreams.

And you guys are talking about Christ? No, you're talking about RSSB's misrepresentation of a made up hindu mystic Christ. Christ told the lying snake who offered him the world to f*** off. You're here saying "yes, just love the master and everything will be yours! The world is yours! Sach khand is yours!"

That's the literal definition of satanic according to the Orthodox Church, the bible and any Christians other than prosperity gospel preachers.

That Sikh proselytizer was annoying, but he's right about RSSB adherents in that you misuse other religious traditions for your own mangod cult. Have some shame and let Churchless people be Churchless you sadistic clowns.

[One Initiated]

Jesse,

Everyone has his own life and serious issues to be dealt with,

The issues I've been facing in life since my childhood, you can't even imagine even in your wildest dreams. I am living and continuing my life with many of them still existing.

If you will know them, you will thank the Universe for keeping you in such great conditions.

But amazingly HE has been so kind which I can not sum up in words.

There is nothing worse that can happen and that was the hard testing time, but by HIS grace our (family's) faith didn't go away in such tormenting life conditions.

Time changes for everyone and it started changing and in some decades I found myself in a million times better conditions.
And now at this time if I am made to live again in such old conditions - I know how to survive them and they won't bother me as much as they did earlier. Specially now when HE has realised so much on me - there isn't a minutest of scope of doubt left.

Not only you even if ~7 billion people points fingers on HIM including the singh brothers,
it doesn't matter to me. because what I've been through, you've not.

However, you (or precisely Brian) demands the realisation and proof first.
It doesn't work this way at all.
HE doesn't provide realisation to clear your doubts (that happens only on death), if there is doubt it won't happen,
if there is Love and faith, it will happen in time and when it will happen there will further be no scope of doubt.

It's a path of Love and not anything else.

[Jesse]

There you go again. Proselytizing. You can't stop doing it. People join religions all the time. Same story. "OMG everything changed it saved me blah blah." Not relevant to this guy stealing money and his corrupt family.

Let people leave the cult. Leave them alone. Say one normal human sentence instead of repeating like a zombie all these lines from propaganda books about HIM and SHABD. It's sickening and inhuman, especially considering the fact that we're talking about a man who calls himself god and sells contaminated medicines to children for profit.

[Vicky]

Dear One Initiated, many thanks for your kind message.

I am unsure whether it's a curse or boon but I do have a highly analytical and logical mind, however thanks to two REAL experiences I've had, I persist and persue with my meditation.

My skeptical mind is highly capable of distinguishing between real and imaginary experiences and thus I am positive that those experiences had NOTHING to do with the tricks of the mind or hallucinations.

May you too live and shine in His love, grace and glory!

[P. S. This message is meant for One Initiated only, the others may refrain from commenting on the above as I am in no need of your negative energy. We may both consistently call each other ignorant but that doesn't lead us anywhere ]

Brian, on another note, can you please allow 777 to post his comments? Just because you and your friends think they are 'gibberish' doesn't mean that others who perhaps are readers but don't leave comments do. Thank you.

[Brian Hines]

Vicky, I've mentioned in a blog post and in a comment that "777" is on a month long timeout during which I'm deleting his comments until October. I've warned him numerous times to stop with the preachy, incoherent, repetitive, off-topic comments, but he persists -- seemingly because he thinks it is his duty to be the RSSB preacher on this blog.

You'll be able to read his comments when October rolls around, should "777" still be wanting to comment, and if he abides by this blog's commenting policies. I'm very open-minded and rarely delete comments, because I favor unfettered discussion. But "777" is a habitual repeat offender, so I feel completely justified in deleting his comments for a month.

[Jesse]

Vicky, since you came to a blog called Church of the Churchless, which is written by an ex member of RSSB who is one of RSSB's most prominent critics, and you're proselytizing, and asking the blog owner to post more proselytization, AND telling others who they can and can't respond to..... well you just KNOW I gotta respond to you now, Vicky

So, Vicky,your inner experiences were nothing special. Not unique to you, Vicky, and certainly not unique to your cult. You're probably not so immune to fantasy as you think either, Vicky. None of us are, and least of all are the ones who think they're immune. Gonna rate your supposed mind blowing and life changing meditation experience a 2/10, Vicky. Cool, but probably just what happens when anyone sits in silence for a long time staring and repeating words like mental patients.

I personally consider religious people going to non-religious blogs and trying to suck people back in with all their bogus fairy tales of wonder and splendor in the inner regions to be negative energy,Vicky, and I find people like myself who speak bluntly and harshly to be very easy to get on with. So I guess negative "energy" isn't subtle energy as much as a social preference. If you feel negative after reading my divine words of wisdom, Vicky, maybe get new friends who don't bleach their teeth and smile when bad things happen. Make Life Real Again.

The happy cult talk is really bleak and dark thing to do here,Vicky, though like all the other faux-love talk, it sure does look good on the surface to say how wonderful things are. Remember, we're talking about guys intentionally selling dirty medicine for profit, Vicky. That's the real situation we're confronted with.

[One Initiated]

Hi Spence,

I think it was not clear
Well I was not particularly accusing you.
The only sentence which was specific for you was:

When you said: "He is no Sat Guru."
And my response: But the Christ has not told you that.

Most other stuff I was talking rhetorically.

Anyways, the point I was mentioning is that some persons have crossed the threshold (by HIS grace) and can not help but remain always in HIS love.
Some have threshold on money matters some with the comments invoking sexual considerations.

For example let me briefly summarise from earlier comments of you and Jim:

See the 100% contradiction:
(possibly after this comment you both turn up and support each others' threshold as well but that will be irrelevant now)

Jim wrote (paraphrasing, as I can not go back in this ocean of comments to find his):
"I don't know these money related stuff, but what struck me most the talk about 69 which the Master did in front of me"

And when I mentioned about the Master Nizamuddin's brothel visit
then, Spence you wrote (again paraphrasing):
"I won't care less if the Master kissed the prostitute, but these money matters are serious ones."

I mean, see how much we cling to the material world proceedings,
which HE is doing only for the betterment of the whole world (including non-initiates),
but we get a hit on a point where our threshold breaks.

Mostly the faults we carry in ourself, we can never expect our Master to show traces of those faults - because we ourself want to get rid of them.
Whereas every action of the Master is only towards enriching and safe guarding the future of billions of people.

[Spence Tepper]

Jesse you wrote
""He feeds thousands a day at dera"

Yeah, with the money they gave him. Really they just feed themselves."

Jesse, you deliver a bitter pill: the plain truth.

[Spence Tepper]

Hi One
I understand your love for Baba Ji, and your thankfulness for his grace. These are your own internal treasures.

But I also see a different side. The same soul that experiences bliss and love from the Master's also sees that they are at best one with an even higher power, and it's that power that each of us carries within us. That is the real power we can merge with.
And at worst they are imperfect images of that power . And they themselves teach us not to get caught up in the physical master, and to understand that the real master is the Spirit. And the real disciple is the Spirit.

If we spend all our time there, we need not defend anything here in this physical place, neither the master nor ourselves.

You need not fear for the Master nor for me
For the real Master watches over all of us.

The worldly issues all need to be handled separately.

And there are ethical issues.

In the world of spirit there is only truth. It can be nothing but truth. Love and bliss.

In this world there is good and bad, right and wrong. And in fact we are obliged by the Masters themselves to live firmly for the truth and for what is right. As Maharaji taught, we may not at our level be able to know the truth, but we should always make our best decision.

When I see how much time and attention Baba Ji is spending away from the sangat and directed to acquiring wealth and his involvement in nepotism and conflict of interest, I ask myself, if this were not Baba Ji, what would I think?

Well, there is more than enough evidence to convict such a person of criminal activity on a variety of counts

Therefore it is my duty to withdraw any support for anyone who actively pursue such behavior. Because these are harmful things.

It isn't a matter of losing the Master's grace. It's not about getting anything from the guru. Or losing anything.

It's about right and wrong

And if it were not Baba Ji I believe most of the supporters at Dera would say it was wrong.

I believe Master Himself would say this behavior is wrong for anyone else

So it would be wrong to make our standard of right and wrong only what is convenient for us

That's also wrong.

[One Initiated]

hi Vicky,

Thanks for your comment.

I shall warn you to beware of some extreme negative characters here,
one example is already above you see.
Engaging too much in responding is just going to end up in verbal misconduct.
It's not worth.

Love invokes Faith and Faith invokes our efforts,
and finally it's our efforts and HIS grace which brings us the realisations.

I congratulate to you for having received HIS grace and realisations no matter how small or big they are, but they are always truly wonderful and beyond this world.

I also agree on your conclusion related to 777,
where it's extremely clear that you and many others likes to read 777's comments,
and Brian is deleting/banning because he couldn't withstand his boldness.

I am again adding here:

When a bunch of advanced satsangis sitting in front of The Great Master,
Master asked with a smile: "What do you need ?"
Satsangis:
"We only need one thing,
the faith in your feet till the last breath of our life.
The mind is such a betrayer, no one can rely on it.
Bless us with an unshakable faith that we won't fall prey"

Have a great time.

[One Initiated]

So Brian,

Aren't you contradicting yourself ?
When you say 777's comments are gibberish,
and again you say 777's comments are preachy ?

I am quite sure that there are many silent readers (who never comment)
always likes to read 777's comments.

Why don't you do a referendum, an online poll,
and see how many of your blog readers would like to read his comments too?

Irrespective of the fact that I resonate with 777's opinions,
I did not find it justified for you to ban and delete his comments.

If you say someone who comments in favour of RSSB is preachy,
you are similarly preachy to say against the RSSB aren't you ?
what's the difference ?

I know you can argue that you are the tenant of this space, so you are rightful,
but then that's not what we call a blog.

[Brian Hines]

One Initiated, it is possible to write preachy gibberish. That's what "777" often does. It sounds like you don't know much about blogs. Let me enlighten you.

Many blogs moderate comments. Meaning, the blog administrator approves comments before they are published. I used to do this, but it's easier on me and blog visitors if I don't approve every comment. Instead, I take a look at comments (not all, but especially ones from newcomers or repeat offenders like "777") to see if they are roughly on-topic, in the English language, not full of quotes from some holy book, and such.

If you go to almost any newspaper site, you'll see that they have much stricter commenting guidelines than I do. I'm very loose and open-minded. But I have my limits. I warned "777" numerous times that he was violating this blog's commenting guidelines, but he persisted in doing what he likes to do: preach gibberish.

In October "777" can take a try at commenting again. Until then, his comments get deleted. Tough love, but someone has to do it.

[Jesse]

"If you say someone who comments in favour of RSSB is preachy,
you are similarly preachy to say against the RSSB aren't you ?
what's the difference ?"

Why am I not allowed to comment on RSSB.org?

Why are non-satsangis not allowed to ask the "guru" questions?

Why are you so eager to post positive spin about your religion on a site made by a man, and frequented by people who left that religion?

https://www.cultwatch.com/howcultswork.html

[Brian Hines]

A P.S. to One Initiated: why don't you fire up Google and search for religious blogs that welcome lots of comments from atheists? I bet you will find exactly none. Or very few.

This churchless blog is run by an atheist, me. Yet I welcome comments from religiously-minded people like you, because I'm open-minded.

You have been telling me, and other RSSB skeptics, that I'm going to be reborn as a worm, or whatever, and am going to have a horrible afterlife (and maybe this-life) because I'm criticizing supposed Saints. Yet you're able to keep on commenting here.

Again, I urge you to find some religious blog, then start leaving many comments about how God is a fantasy, religious believers are fools, and they're going to suffer for their mistaken belief in God. See how long you're welcome on that blog.

Then come back here and thank me for being so welcoming of people who have beliefs that are utterly foreign to my current worldview.

[One Initiated]

Brian wrote:
"You have been telling me, and other RSSB skeptics, that I'm going to be reborn as a worm"

Brian, no you are completely wrong here. Can you point me where I did mention that.
I never used that word, but Jesse does that more than 24 times in 24 hours.

I've used the term reborn and rebirth and always in a healthy fashion never in a critical way.
The next life of any spiritual seeker is mostly much better than the previous one,
because at the time of death of this birth, everyone receives great realisations.

[Jesse]

One, you have made some pretty negative comments about others who leave the path. Now you are lying and saying you haven't.

Let's refresh your memory with some quotes. Quotes from you just in the past few days.

"Jesse, Since you are initiated, you might not go to hell."

"Yes, I have closely observed various deaths of both the believers and non-believers, and there is magnificent difference in that. I've witnessed myself non-believers and abusers going through so much pain and agony on their death bed "

" Yeah, as if you know about Masters, when not even knowing the causes of the horrible condition of your family members."

"you are just piling yourself with more stuff to settle and lengthen your path."

"if you continue your spree of abusing the Masters, you and the likes will end up in same and even more horrible situation. If you are happy during the deeds, be ready and happily accept the fruits too - be it bitter and painful. "

Oh, One Initiated. Be like me, the true guru, and you'll learn to lie a lot less.

[Brian Hines]

One Initiated, here's comments where you threatened that people would experience bad stuff if they criticized the guru or God. So I accept your apology for you doubting that you said this dogmatic ridiculous stuff. I can understand why you want to forget your words, because they are despicable, especially for someone who considers himself "spiritual."
------------------------------
Jesse, Since you are initiated, you might not go to hell. shall you be required to experience it here per your karmas, it's indeed going to be very tough. Please keep spending time in listening to the Sound daily without fail, and that shall relieve you from a lot of stuffs.

Arjuna, "but left when I went in" - that was interesting account, and you shared nicely in short words - thanks for sharing. Yes, I have closely observed various deaths of both the believers and non-believers, and there is magnificent difference in that. I've witnessed myself non-believers and abusers going through so much pain and agony on their death bed sometimes for many weeks. Someday I would like to explain some of these accounts here.

Jesse, That's correct, as I said, you are left with no other option than to just wait and see and experience it yourself. As a brother Satsangi, my part is only to alert you with the misdeeds. It's upto you and your thoughts how to perceive them and proceed further. With every abusive comment, you are just piling yourself with more stuff to settle and lengthen your path. Tucson, Jesse, has his own karma and you have your own. Your appreciations of rotten comments doesn't matter for anyone else, it can only rot your thoughts further.

Blonde, "I have more than a few elder ex-Sats in my family who are in a horrible situation" Exactly, if you continue your spree of abusing the Masters, you and the likes will end up in same and even more horrible situation. If you are happy during the deeds, be ready and happily accept the fruits too - be it bitter and painful. You have examples live in front of you, still not taking lessons and following same mistakes. Their horrible situation will only end with the end of their body. The Master who initiated them and the current Master, both will come. You shall spend time with them very closely in their ending time, they might give you some hints, those hints can change your life - only if you are in acceptance mode. They will only feel blessed once their current episode ends, they will lead much better satsangi life in their next birth.

Jesse, You only have to wait for the death of this physical body of yours. You do not have any other hope left for yourself. You are in a sad situation. You will have to live all these years in the spiritual draught, you will still enjoy this draught due to your ego, It might be possible some life event might change you again, if it does, be courageous to onboard again and inform all others here. The very elders exers are in much better situation than you, they will get blessed much earlier than you.

Most of the exers are just going to wait and watch, ending up wasting numerous years of this precious lifetime. In fact many of the aged ones are going to die and reborn by that time, they will only realise the realities at the time of their death. Many will witness it live. "Do make your own decision, but make it an informed one please."

[One Initiated]

Brian,

I think more than me, you need to read them,
I nowhere mentioned even once that the rebirth is going to be a problem.

I believe and repeat again that the ending of this birth can be problematic,
but surely the next birth is going to be a much better one.

Example this one:
"They will only feel blessed once their current episode ends, they will lead much better satsangi life in their next birth."

Even for Jesse, who is the most abusive person on this board till date,
and I know you are only bearing him because he is on same podium,
I never used any "wormified" comments for him - which you mentioned specifically.

Also this one again:
"Jesse, Since you are initiated, you might not go to hell."

It's clearly depicting that I value the initiation which Jesse and you do have,
and I am pretty sure that it's not going to bring anyone a degradation post this birth.
However, if there are karmas which we are building up, if they have to be paid of at the end, then they will have to be.

Like you feel for yourself to be telling the world your truth.
Being a brother Satsangi, I feel I shall do my part.

I don't have a slightest of hatred for anyone, not even Jesse.
I feel love for everyone here.

[Jesse]

One Initiated, though it's only a theory, I believe that something like dunbar's number is true. We can't love an infinite amount of people.

Obviously, when someone elsewhere in the world is getting blown up by missiles, I feel nothing, nor do you. As both proximity and personal intimacy to the victim increases, so does the pain of knowing of their demise increase.

I say this because I don't think you feel love for me. I think you might want to have a all encompassing sort of spiritual love, but you don't because you can't. If someone shot me right now, it would have absolutely no effect on you whatsoever. Same goes for everyone here.

These desires to be what we're not is the beginning of self delusion and dishonesty, and it is the crux of religious teachings. It's one thing to generally want good things in the world, but to express personal love for unknown people simply isn't true.

We start by telling ourselves that we can love everything, and we end telling everyone else that if they don't love one punjabi man, they will suffer. Funny how cults work.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunbar%27s_number

[Bombay Blonde]

@ One Initiated : I haven't taken the time and trouble to read all your comments on the blog, but the recap above is rather disturbing. I appreciate Brian and Jesse for sifting through the dogmatic tripe and highlighting the sordid psyche behind the next level shit that you spew. I know I have the patience of a saint when it comes to dealing with Radha Soami Satsang Bullcrap, because I still have family who are believers and I put up with them well. But that beyond-RSSB love balm that I tend to rub on them, you aren't deserving of that. Why ? Because, you are evil.

You have suddenly made the still-Sats in my family look very good. I just realised that I was giving you too long a rope and that I need to lower my patience and tolerance levels. There's a fine line between RS Mat and RS Crap.

The corporate-spiritual synergies between Beas and the business world is something that I want to focus on. I will not be responding to your comments, but the next time you say something about horrible things happening to my family or to anyone here ... I will nail you to the ground, in Beas if that's what you would like. Are we clear, One ?

[One Initiated]

No, we aren't, Blonde,

You still didn't understand the gist at all and you are still missing the Love.

"You have suddenly made the ex-Sats and still-Sats in my family look good. I just realised that I was giving you too long a rope and that I need to lower my patience and tolerance levels."
What rubbish is that by the way ?

"I will nail you to the ground" - get in your senses.

It's not related to you or your family in specific. And it's not specific to any person.
That's a general karmic law being setup by the Anami.

Saints are the one who are in direct link with the ONE.
The disciple could merge into the Shabd by merging with the Saint.

Abusing the saints is not liked by the ONE.
And if you are doing so, whether you like it or not, you will have to repay.

If we are wasting our whole life in abusing the Masters instead of listening to the Sound,
what are we expecting to go through ? Yes, it can be extremely painful and horrible.

[Spence Tepper]

Maharaj Charan Singh, my Master, taught that true Saints are living examples of devotion to God. They are examples for us to follow.

Therefore when someone engages in nepotism, cronyism, theft and takes illegal loans to cover land scheme failures, that is no example.

No one should follow Baba Ji's example.

When someone spends 80% of their time scheming to acquire land and wealth, and 20% helping souls return to God, that is no Sant Sat Guru.

Maharaji taught that the mission of Saints in this world is not to make this place a better place for others nor themselves. The ONLY mission is to help souls return. Not a part time job.

FULL TIME JOB.

But when you have a teacher who spends 80% of their time in real estate investment / fraud / embezzlement , and is a spiritual teacher 20% of the time you do not have a true Saint.

"And this is the exact mission of the purpose of the saints. They just come to pick up their sheep from here and there, merge them back into the Shabd and thus merge back into the lord. This is their only object of coming into this world. They are unconcerned with this modern civilisation. They have to live like other people, but they are not at all affected by these things which are going on around us, because it is not in the least their business to interfete in all this. "

TAKING SOULS BACK IS THEIR SOLE PURPOSE. That's NOT a part time job.

True Saints are UNCONCERNED WITH MODERN CIVILIZATION. THAT ISN'T THERE BUSINESS.

Baba Ji is not a Sant Sat Guru.

"

[Jesse]

One Initiated,

When you say "god does this and that" what you're really saying is "im god" or at least "I'm so elevated that I know gods workings more than anyone else even though every religion on earth disagrees with me."

So essentially it's the most arrogant statement possible for a man to make.

Don't repeat lines from religious books and pass it off as universal truth that is as clear as the sky is blue. Unless of course you are the god of the universe as you're implying you are. Then do what you want.

[Spence Tepper]

Hi One!
The only reason for your comments about others stems from your desire to defend the Master.

And that's very noble in terms of intention.

Each of us must make our own decision. Personally I would avoid judging the spiriuality of others. We can't really do that with any accuracy, and Baba Ji advises against it.

However we can share facts that let people make up their own mind.

In my citation above, I cite the words of my Master (from Spiritual Discourses volume 1).

In earlier comments others, including myself, share evidence, facts.

Brian sets a very high standard for objective facts. Even when I am making a statement Brian, and in this case Jesse, agrees with, but have no independent supportive evidence, they will, either gently or harshly, challenge me for the factual basis of my conclusion. And in that basus, I must then find the source of my thinking or amend it to reflect actual facts.

Note the standard is the fact, not so much the interpretation.

So you are welcome to site the Masters, other teachings, news events, factual evidence to support your comments that are relevant to the topic. And even the topic isn't exactly the character of the Master. It's about his nearly entire focus on accumulating wealth through loans, land and, sorry to say, larceny. That evidence is plentiful and has been presented.

But you are most welcome to provide alternate facts to dismantle either the evidence or the conclusions.

What you write about a Sant Sat Guru is true, by definition.

But those are very rare souls. And we must, flawed as we are, make our own decision. Church of the Churchless at its base offers many things, which includes factual information.

You are welcome to offer that, too.

[One Initiated]

Hi Spence,

First thing is that the money thing, which has completely occupied your mind instead of Simran now,
is going to be utilised for the betterment of the planet.
All the critiques will turn grateful to these summations.
Isn't it a pity that we consider the national governments and their laws as more ethical than the Master's proceedings.

It's understood what your current stand is,
but why you have resorted in spreading falsified statements is beyond acceptance.

You will have to see the yearly schedule here:
https://www.rssb.org/satsang_schedules.php

Just like the Great Master and Hazur,
80% time of the year HE is spending in traveling to the locations and delivering discourses.
Also remember at any location after the day of Sunday satsang,
the Master remains at the location for 3 days (at big centre) and 1 day (at smaller ones)
for the initiation.
That even doesn't include the foreign trips, include them and the travel time as well,
the Master actually doesn't even get enough rest.

But I think with your current state of mind you can't even perceive a simple algorithm and calculation of the satsang schedules.

Wishing Master's love and faith your way brother.

[Jen]

One Initiated says: "I don't have a slightest of hatred for anyone, not even Jesse. I feel love for everyone here."

Bombay Blonde you say to One Initiated: "@ One Initiated : I haven't taken the time and trouble to read all your comments on the blog, but the recap above is rather disturbing. I appreciate Brian and Jesse for sifting through the dogmatic tripe and highlighting the sordid psyche behind the next level shit that you spew. I know I have the patience of a saint when it comes to dealing with Radha Soami Satsang Bullcrap, because I still have family who are believers and I put up with them well. But that beyond-RSSB love balm that I tend to rub on them, you aren't deserving of that. Why ? Because, you are evil."

One Initiated is not evil. You are having fun here with your comments and seem to have some feeling of self justification because you think you are unveiling some kind of evil in RSSB.

Jesse says: "Obviously, when someone elsewhere in the world is getting blown up by missiles, I feel nothing, nor do you."

Really? I certainly feel for the suffering of others whereas obviously you and BB do not have any empathy towards anyone else.

You both seem to be enjoying yourselves so much with your putdowns. I am sincerely asking you both why? What is your motive for being on this constant attack on those people who have their own belief system which does not agree with yours? Is this self righteous propaganda on your part? Are you always right? If you think you are, how about giving us some evidence about RSSB's faults which are facts and not simply 'hearsay'.

How do we know if One Initiated is correct or incorrect in saying that the money thing is "going to be utilised for the betterment of the planet".

What if we are heading for a huge disaster on a massive scale and for those satsangis in India they will all head for the Dera when it happens. How do we know anything about the future and what RSSB is getting ready for.

[One Initiated]

Dear Jen,

"I certainly feel for the suffering of others"
I whole heartedly agree with you here, I do feel the same.
And I don't feel the need of explaining these things to Jesse or Blonde.

"What if we are heading for a huge disaster "
We are!
I am in direct contact with some advanced disciples who have seen it,
The inner Master has shown them inside and it's going to be very tough.

Wish you a superb time.

[Bombay Blonde]

@ Jen : A person can be in love with a spiritual projection for a lifetime. How deeply the effects run and what kind of psychological symptoms come to the surface depends on the intensity of the kind of belief that is being fed and nurtured. In some cases, when someone goes too far out of left field and into the negative, the effects can assume toxic proportions and consume all rationality. One Initiated is one such example.

His unhinged threats of impending karmic disaster proves that he has taken on the shades of the metaphoric idea of Kaal and he uses them to push his curses of personal apocalypses on the ones who do not agree with him. It is why I've concluded that he's evil. I have met dozens of indoctrinated and brainwashed Satsangis, but no one has come off as vicious as One Initiated. I'm beginning to doubt whether he is, in fact, an RSSB believer or is he just a deeply depressed psychotic who was once associated with RSSB and didn't know how to disengage. I'm of the opinion that he should submit to an urgent, independent mental health evaluation by an appropriate specialist.

Most RSSB'ers suffer from the religious version of the Peter Pan Syndrome, a delusional non-growing state that keeps them happy in their Sach Khand bubbles. That's a bad enough way to go through life. What's worse is when the delusional self colludes with the metaphors in the philosophy and gets stuck in a bad hallucinatory warp. These illogical tirades that One Initiated takes off on are clearly indicative of the failure of RSSB in checking on what's really going on with the emotional state of its members, especially when they alienate themselves by believing in their own versions of the satanic. It borders on the dangerously fanatic, even if it's just blogging.

[Jesse]

"Really? I certainly feel for the suffering of others"

No, you don't. As you were writing that comment, people were being slaughtered. You felt nothing. Shed no tears.
Only when promoted by media like pavlovs dog do we sorta kinda care about happenings far away. Even then nobody cries from reading a newspaper.

[Jesse]

There's always the possibility that impending doom awaits the earth and this master is planning for it, but if that were the case, it would be the master getting involved in worldly things which he claims not to do, and the fact that they closed hospitals, lost land and a billion dollars means he's planning poorly.

[AJ]

@PJ
"I should have walked the moment I learned that GSD was Charan's nephew. "

Assuming Charan was ok for you, Just curious, why you didn't feel the same way about Charan (he was Baba Sawan Singh's grandson after all)?

If Charan was a PLM, Why did he appoint someone like GSD, provided the perceived wrongdoings are, true, as a successor? Didn't he know better? Why did he gets his initiates to go through this ordeal? He as a PLM shouldn't have cared about the "Family Business" and should have appointed a rightful heir?

Does Sant Mat even need successors and especially declared successors?
- AJ

[Jen]

Jesse, you say: "No, you don't. As you were writing that comment, people were being slaughtered. You felt nothing. Shed no tears. Only when promoted by media like pavlovs dog do we sorta kinda care about happenings far away. Even then nobody cries from reading a newspaper."

I do shed tears, very often, I am an empath and its not easy, but I can't change who I am and wouldn't want to anyway. I can't even understand how some people can be so cold and heartless. As I am writing this comment I am tearful because I am talking to a very cold hearted person. Its called compassion Jesse have you ever responded to another with warmth and care?

Does anyone here on this blog even care about the feelings of the sincere followers who are upset and commenting here. Do you even understand what suffering this is for the people who find comfort in a spiritual religion that you are judging.

[Jesse]

Jen, were you able to feel all the pain the world is suffering you'd die of a heart attack. You might want to care, but it's physically impossible.

Empathy has limits. Acknowledging those limits is honest. The fact that you're bragging about being an empathic person and simultaneously seeking empathy screams of being disingenuous.

Sorry, but im not easily manipulated by this stuff so you'll have to try on another.

[Jen]

Jesse,
You say, "The fact that you're bragging about being an empathic person and simultaneously seeking empathy screams of being disingenuous."

Okay, you are entitled to your opinion. Disingenuous means not candid or sincere. Sincere means what I thought I was being, truthful and straightforward. Ah well, not trying to manipulate just simply stating my truth and not looking for empathy just calling out the lack of sympathy for those people who are living a difficult life and probably need some kind of faith or religion.

[Jesse]

Yeah thats not a bad thing, Jen. But also maybe we need to sympathize less and be more real with people about their religious expectations if we truly want to minimize unnecessary suffering.
Most people simply accepted my choice to worship a man in a turban. In retrospect I wish someone would have slapped some sense into me and asked serious questions. It'd have saved me years of my life, assuming I would have been humble enough to believe those who told me that my too good to be true free ticket to heaven was real.
We could just as well celebrate that so many people are being given a good opportunity to leave now before getting sucked in too far. Especially the Indians who have temples every five feet all across the country and more supposed "perfect masters" than one can count. They can switch to something else effortlessly.

And my apologies for doubting your sincerity. I'm generally a d*** but you've been nice to me so I really should reciprocate the gesture.

[One Initiated]

"Sorry, but im not easily manipulated by this stuff so you'll have to try on another."
Clearly you were!
how long you can hold hatred in front of Love ?

Jen, thanks for your warm comments.

[Jesse]

One Initiated , love is a very real and intense thing. It's not a trivial word that we apply to randoms on the internet, or to celebrities in turbans who we've never men and who sit on stage talking about religion.

Throwing the word around so loosely cheapens the meaning of it and takes away all its real value.