Here's a message from Sheena for RSSB devotees

Sheena (a pen name) wrote a compelling book, "Memoirs of a Seeker."

Though Sheena describes the guru to whom she was once devoted only as "Guruji," and doesn't name the center headed up by Guruji, it is clear that the guru is Gurinder Singh Dhillon, the leader of Radha Soami Satsang Beas (RSSB), a spiritual organization headquartered in India at a place commonly known as the Dera.

I've written several blog posts about Sheena's book. I liked how she wrote so honestly about losing faith in Gurinder Singh after coming to the Dera and doing volunteer work that brought her into close contact with the guru. You can read excerpts from her book, and my defense of Sheena, in these posts:

"Sheena's 'Memoirs of a Seeker' throws light on Gurinder Singh Dhillon"
"My response to someone who doubts 'Sheena's' stories about Gurinder Singh Dhillon"

Sheena has been reading the posts and related comments on this blog. Today she sent me this message. I'll share some thoughts about what Sheena says after the message. "Satsangis" refers to RSSB initiates. "Hukm" means command or divine order.

Hello Brian

I deeply appreciate your mature, fair reviews and comments, for respecting others need for anonymity and staying with the subject instead of playing Sherlock Holmes as some are doing.  Makes you a trustworthy and honourable man!   My comments/questions to satsangis who constantly have debates on your blog:

1.  Who Sheena is, is inconsequential.  If Sheena wants to remain anonymous, she must have good reason and the constitutional right to stay anonymous.
   
   
2. Why do they spend time reading your blogs and then spend even more energy and time arguing when their faith and belief are supposedly intact?  Sense of insecurity, doubts?
   
   
3. Why do they react to criticism so ferociously when RSSB declares "Critics are our best friends?"  Is their faithlessness coupled with lack of following Master's 'hukm'?  Doesn't reflect well on both the disciple or teacher.
   
   
4. They claim that the teachings are important.  Yes, teachings are important when following a religion or a spiritual path.  But isn't it equally important for the teacher to follow 'his' teachings too? Or are the teachings only for disciples?

           Sheena

I agree with everything Sheena says.

Regarding her first point, the message of her book is indeed much more important than the messenger. So far I haven't heard any commenter take issue with the accuracy of her disturbing stories about Gurinder Singh, including that he ignored a report of sexual molestation at the Dera.

Regarding her second point, I also find it strange, and amusing, that many RSSB devotees spend a lot of time reading my churchless posts and commenting on them.

I've become an atheist after belonging to RSSB for 35 years. I spend zero time on blogs, websites, or discussion groups praising the glory of the RSSB guru and the RSSB teachings, because I'm confident in what I believe and don't believe. So I think Sheena is right. Arguing on this blog does seem to show a sense of insecurity and doubts among RSSB initiates.

Regarding her third point, I've heard that the critics quote is indeed what Gurinder Singh has said to his audiences. Yet the attacks, insults, and threats I get regularly from supposedly "spiritual" RSSB devotees does go against their guru's words about viewing critics as our best friends.

Regarding her fourth point, Sheena directs our attention to a crucial difference between the teachings of RSSB (a branch of Sant Mat), and traditional religions like Catholicism. Here's how Wikipedia describes Sant Mat:

The expression Sant Mat literally means "Teachings of the Saints" – the "Path of Sants (Saints)", "Path of Truth", "Right or Positive Path". As "point of view of the Sants", the term Sant is pivotal. Derived from the Sanskrit sat (सत) and has overlapping usages (true, real, honest, right). Its root meaning is "one who knows(is) the truth" or "one who has experienced (merged into) Ultimate Reality." The term sant has taken on the general meaning of "a good person" but is properly assigned to the poet-sants of medieval India.

According to the RSSB teachings, Gurinder Singh Dhillon, like previous RSSB gurus, is considered to be a modern living saint. As such, supposedly he has taken on the godly qualities of someone who has directly experienced, or merged with, an ultimate divine reality.

So if the guru acts like a normal flawed human being, which includes being desirous of making lots of money, enjoying the company of pretty women, and ignoring reports of sexual misconduct at the organization he oversees, this is a much bigger deal than if Catholic priests, or even the Pope himself, exhibit immoral behavior.

Jesus is a long-dead "saint" to Catholic believers. Nothing a living Catholic can do affects their belief that Jesus is the Son of God who came to earth to redeem a sinful humanity. 

On the other hand, Gurinder Singh Dhillon is a living "saint," so his actions do reflect on the validity of the RSSB teachings. As Sheena aptly said, "Yes, teachings are important when following a religion or a spiritual path. But isn't it equally important for the teacher to follow 'his' teachings too? Or are the teachings only for disciples?"

This goes a long way toward explaining why so many RSSB devotees are unwilling to face unwelcome facts about Gurinder Singh's business dealings and the stories about him that Sheena relates in her book. They attack the messengers -- such as the Indian business press, Sheena, and me -- rather than admit that the guru they believe in is a flawed human being, just as we all are.

Gurinder Singh Dhillon 

Comments

[Joe]

Hmm...if a person has experienced ultimate reality does it necessarily mean he won't chase after wealth and other earthly pleasures?

I think that is imputing too many assumptions into the nature and effect of "experiencing ultimate reality."

If a guru has accomplished the objective of the path why would he be expected to behave in the same way that those who have not are instructed to behave?

He wouldn't. Since his purpose would be entirely different.

Of course I have no idea if Gurinder Singh Dhillon has experienced ultimate reality or accomplished the objectives of the path. I'm just saying......

[Brian Hines]

Joe, if there is no way to tell the difference between a "saint" and an "ordinary person," then doesn't this make the whole idea of sainthood absurd?

By the logic you suggested, a murderer, rapist, or child molester could be a saint, because we have no way of knowing how saints are supposed to behave.

This would be good news for people who want to emulate Charles Manson, Hitler, or Stalin, but bad news for those of us who believe that a good person acts like a good person, or they aren't a good person.

[Spence Tepper]

Hi Joe and Brian:

Joe you wrote:
"Hmm...if a person has experienced ultimate reality does it necessarily mean he won't chase after wealth and other earthly pleasures?"

The Saints teach that once you have that ultimate reality, it is the ultimate pleasure, and nothing in this world has any attraction for you anymore. So, as the Saints teach, the answer is a resounding "NO."

[Spence Tepper]

Think of it this way. Every minute spent here is another minute away from there.
No, a Saint will not spend one second longer here than they need to. Their time his is simply fulfilling their duty, period. Their wealth, and their happiness comes from the Lord, and that is within them.

And they teach us to find that within ourselves. They become representational of that pure perfection within ourselves.

But if they can't fulfill the basic role, then, no, they are not a true Saint.

When they give us the behavioral criteria, it makes no sense to switch stories and say "You can't understand".

We can't understand what a Saint does, but we can understand vice. People who understand truth and the requirements of it understand distraction, vice and immorality quite readily.

And there is no connection between vice and Shabd.

As Maharaji often would say, "That's just justification for one's own weaknesses."

No true Saint there. Keep moving.

[Joe]

Brian, your response to my post is ridiculous. You have made a leap that was not implied by what I said. Stay on point will you.

Spencer, that is an assumption you make that experiencing ultimate reality is the ultimate pleasure and will eliminate all pursuit of worldly pleasures. How do you know that?

[Brian Hines]

Joe, here's what you said:

"If a guru has accomplished the objective of the path why would he be expected to behave in the same way that those who have not are instructed to behave?"

So you set up a different standard of morality, ethics, and such for a supposedly god-realized guru than the standard ordinary people are to be held to. Thus I stand by what I said. I just took your logic to the extreme of Charles Manson, Hitler, and Stalin.

[Spence Tepper]

Hi Joe
You asked
"Spencer, that is an assumption you make that experiencing ultimate reality is the ultimate pleasure and will eliminate all pursuit of worldly pleasures. How do you know that?"

It is what Maharaji and Sawan Singh teach in the books.

By definition a Saint has become the Lord and lives in that sea of bliss which the initiate can experience in their meditation.

So, once again, a Guru who violates their own vows and indulges in theft is not a Sant Sat Guru.

[Spence Tepper]

Hi Joe
I realize you may need more specifics. Maharaji said repeatedly that when you become attached to the Spirit and realize it, all other pleasures become insipid. He said the cure for the outward and downward pull of the senses is to attach our attention to that higher pleasure within (Shabd). Then we just are here to fulfill our duty, because our real pleasure is within. And Maharaji also taught that you cannot gain this higher pleasure if you indulge in the lower pleasures. But by experiencing that higher pleasure in degrees, you naturally let go the worldly pleasures, because now you have a greater pleasure. You give up your love affair with plastic pearls because now you have in your hands real pearls. And you would never trade real pearls for plastic ones ever again.

[Sarah]

Joe, I think Brian was on point. Your grammar was off a little. Your intended meaning would have been clearer if you had worded your message in a different way.

[Spence Tepper]

I heard Baba Ji himself say that you can't make much progress on the path if you practice it on a part time basis, like a hobby. It's only those who worship the Spirit as a full time job, throughout the day, who make progress.

I can personally attest to that.

But if the Guru makes his role as Guru a part time thing, he is no Sant Mat Guru. He's just a part timer.

[Dungeness]

Joe you wrote:
"Hmm...if a person has experienced ultimate reality does it necessarily mean he won't chase after wealth and other earthly pleasures?"

Spence responded:
The Saints teach that once you have that ultimate reality, it is the ultimate pleasure, and nothing in this world has any attraction for you anymore. So, as the Saints teach, the answer is a resounding "NO."`
So, once again, a Guru who violates their own vows and indulges in theft is not a Sant Sat Guru

Hi Spence,

What occurs to me though is that Guru may be acting in
ways antithetical to morality, or ostensibly even to sanity,
and yet are purposeful.

I seem to recall tales of a guru inviting scandal by making
visits to red-light areas, smashing an orphan's boat to save
him from an advancing army, or commanding disciples go
build "mud huts" endlessly.

Of course, as Brian and others have correctly shown the more
malign and ethically challenged of them must be condemned.
Selling a charitable hospital certainly should be. But is it outright
theft until more is known? Shouldn't an official explanation be
heard to see what the disgraced one has to say for himself?

Maybe it'll turn out to be an extreme variant of the "mud hut"
syndrome. In fact I can think of a blog pastor or two who've
already put all of RSSB in that ilk.
~

[Dungeness]

Joe you wrote:
"Hmm...if a person has experienced ultimate reality does it necessarily mean he won't chase after wealth and other earthly pleasures?"

Spence responded:
The Saints teach that once you have that ultimate reality, it is the ultimate pleasure, and nothing in this world has any attraction for you anymore. So, as the Saints teach, the answer is a resounding "NO."`
So, once again, a Guru who violates their own vows and indulges in theft is not a Sant Sat Guru

Hi Spence,

What occurs to me though is that Guru may be acting in
ways antithetical to morality, or ostensibly even to sanity,
and yet are purposeful.

I seem to recall tales of a guru inviting scandal by making
visits to red-light areas, smashing an orphan's boat to save
him from an advancing army, or commanding disciples go
build "mud huts" endlessly.

Of course, as Brian and others have correctly shown the more
malign and ethically challenged of them must be condemned.
Selling a charitable hospital certainly should be. But is it outright
theft until more is known? Shouldn't an official explanation be
heard to see what the disgraced one has to say for himself?

Maybe it'll turn out to be an extreme variant of the "mud hut"
syndrome. In fact I can think of a blog pastor or two who've
already put all of RSSB in that ilk.
~

[Mr. Curious]

Hi Joe,

You said, "Spencer, that is an assumption you make that experiencing ultimate reality is the ultimate pleasure and will eliminate all pursuit of worldly pleasures. How do you know that?"

According to Sant Mat (Sant Thakar Singh and Kirpal Singh specifically), when one fully tastes the Shabd, all worldly pleasures and intoxicants lose their appeal.

So, a "guru" who displays lust and attachment to material things cannot be a true PLM according to Sant Mat. They should be imbibing the nectar of Shabd at all times and serving as an example on how not to fall prey to worldly desires and sense pleasures.

That said, there are stories of Sant Mat saints who do "sinful" things (smoke hookahs, cavort with prostitutes, etc.) solely to skirt convention and test the faith of disciples. However, I think these are cover stories for fake saints who got caught in the act.

[Spence Tepper]

Hi Dungeness

The theft of funds was not the sale of the hospital but the illegal siphoning of Fortis funds over the last five years into Baba Ji's wife's hands. Loans unpaid. Fabricated additional loans invented to cover the loan repayments on the original loans. This has been confirmed by two independent audits. The Singhs were fired from Fortis because of it. Several of the $400 million dollars went to Baba Ji's wife. It is theft, though we do not know the reason why.

The sale of the RSSB hospital, which is deeded to Gurindar, to Gurindar's private holding company, run by his son, and the subsequent sale at a different price to Fortis, where Baba Ji also has significant holdings, is several levels of conflict of interest and constitutes several breaches of ethics. It is at core RSSB money laundering into Gurindar 's private assets.

These are facts, regardless of the individuals involved.

If this was anyone else, there would be no question. Investigation and trial would proceed on a rich array of independent facts. A court would render a verdict.

All the facts and then some to justify a trial are there.

But imagining the work of a perfect saint magically erases those basic human standards of conduct, For those who want to believe. But they don't understand. The saints aren't here to take advantage of their own children, and to act as kings. They are here to be like you and I and live within the same basic constraints of morality. They are here, in fact to show us how to get through this life without harming others, without exploitation, without insult, without theft.

None of the examples in ancient writings involve stealing hundreds of millions of dollars for personal acquisition of wealth.

When, for any reason, we lose the ability to judge right from wrong, we lose several other important human qualities, including the ability to acknowledge our own shortcomings, our ability to forgive, our ability to give more than we take, our ability to hold a Truth as more important than our personal interests.

The corruption is not merely the theft of money. By putting sincere Satsangis in the position of having to defend theft, basically by twisting their own ethics to defend their Guru, the entire Sangat's moral basis in the love of Truth has been stolen. Leaving RSSB morally bankrupt.

The destruction is far broader than you understand. But sadly common among gurus.

[One Initiated]

hi Spence,

You've not reached SachKhand to affirm any of the above drab.
Neither you've met Maharaji asked HIM to validate it.
Which means what all you are posting, from the calculations of your mind is just "Fake"
Essentially you are simply projecting your mind and your mind is playing with you.

You are pointing on Sant Satguru who IS ONE with the ANAMI
without understanding the purpose behind it.

Had you attended the last week's discourse at Delhi,
you would not have been regurgitating such noxious stuff.

The purpose is far broader than you could ever imagine to understand.

All of your comments represents your spiritual bankruptcy.

[Brian Hines]

One Initiated, I'm starting to get jealous. From your comment above I'm getting the feeling that you dislike Spence more than you dislike me. Please, tell me it isn't so! I want to be #1 on your Church of the Churchless Dislike List.

[Spence Tepper]

If Baba Ji has any purpose to this, it is to test whether his own followers love an imaginary icon that conveniently doesn't challenge them, or whether they love truth above their own personal sense of happiness and comfort.

I suggest humbly, that to love the icon is really just self serving and has nothing to do with the true Master, who is all Truth.

But to love Baba Ji, actually, as he is, honoring the truth, might be to be sure of an honest court verdict, even, if the verdict warrants it, jail time.

Can a Saint spend time in Jail?

Is that what it takes for his own followers to stand up for truth and do the right thing, even at great personal cost?

[Tim]

The difference between Brian and David Lane was always that David was very professional and really learned and studious. But Brian just forwarded news about rssb as a gossip girl from the net and evrytime Brian gets critic he think there is religious believer on the other site cause Brian has a preset in his mind" if you criticise Brian you are believer" but he wont admit his faults.
And Manjit was right you had some minor criticism before but you inreassd it after you were fired. You just manipulate very hard.

[287daysleft]

Sheena: I'm not a member of Radhasoami.

Ok, the teacher is supposed to follow his teachings. So far no one has listed one thing Babaji has done that did not follow his own teachings. Here is what has been said:

1. He's not a proper policeman for the Dera. Ok, not his job, there are policemen at the Dera, inappropriate behavior shoud be reported to them.
2. He didn't help her get the best price for her real estate sale. Not his job.
3. He didn't help her bring many boxes to Dera. Please.
4. He caused her to lose face in front of people.
5. He's borrowed money from relatives. What were the terms?

Where does any of this go against his teachings?

So, I guess it's no big deal but how did you leave RSSB before 2005 and then come to write 2 official highly regarded books for RSSB in 2016? That is curious. Are you planning on writing more books for RSSB?

.

[287daysleft]

Sheena:

By the way, I've read all of your books and loved them.

:)

[Spence Tepper]

Hi One!
The points I've made are merely to summarize existing evidence.

Your criticisms consist of comments about my inner development, and not the evidence at hand. Since you are not a mind reader they are conjecture.

The love of Truth demands that we focus on the existing facts. That is true Satsang. And in a way this is Satsang.

Any place where people ignore truth for personal status or comfort is no longer satsang. And those in attendance no longer Satsangis.

When sevadars sit in the front rows they are only serving themselves and no longer the Sangat, nor is Seva taking place.

These comments are made in the hope that one day these traditions will be honored again, as Brian has been doing alone, and with other Churches members for several years.

Please return to the love of Truth.

[Appreciative Reader]

Quote Brian : this is a much bigger deal than if Catholic priests, or even the Pope himself, exhibit immoral behavior. --- Jesus is a long-dead "saint" to Catholic believers. Nothing a living Catholic can do affects their belief that Jesus is the Son of God who came to earth to redeem a sinful humanity.

Not quite, Brian, far as I can see. (That is, your larger point about GSD holds, of course, but not so much this contrast with the RCC situation.)

The priests are small game, but the Pope is supposed to be the direct successor of The Rock, the possessor and wielder of the ex cathedra voice, and the direct appointee (by proxy) of the Christ himself. As such, any wrongdoing of this nature by the Pope would literally shake the foundations of the RCC, because it would throw doubt on the primacy of the institution of the Pope (as well as the institution of the Church itself).

True, this wouldn’t necessarily throw doubt on the person and the teachings of the Christ himself, but it would certainly negate the very rationale for the existence of the RCC itself. After all the RCC sees itself very differently than churches of other denominations.

That is why Benedict’s abdication had thrown the RC world in such a tizzy, with many wondering if there was some deal to cover up that man’s past misdeeds, in exchange for his quietly walking away into the sunset.

And, when you think about it, that very strategy might be a great way for RSSB to cover up any wrongdoings on the part of GSD. Always provided they managed to get the authorities to drop charges. (Beas is probably no Vatican after all, in terms of clout. And this entire “strategy” is based on the speculation that Benedict may have actually been guilty of ‘something’ -- which hypothesis is no more than unsupported speculation, unlike the GSD issue.) But still, it occurs to me that here is, perhaps, a way out for Beas. Replace GSD with someone everyone can like and celebrate, and quietly arrange for the cases to be somehow dropped, and bribe the most vocal critics into silence, and then -- just perhaps -- it may soon be business as usual.

So anyway, that digression aside, my point was this, that the choir-boy diddling by RC priests isn’t, in itself, something that might shake the foundations of the Church, because the priests themselves are small fry. But it is the deliberate and repeated cover-ups of these incidents by the Church (and by extension the Pope himself) that might actually uproot that institution, if only the faithful had the wits to think this through -- which it seems they don’t. (Which is exactly similar to the molestation issue described here, in the excerpts from the book you’ve published. The “Sevadar” himself was no doubt small fry, and his alleged transgressions heinous but ultimately inconsequential to the RSSB story, but what is really troubling -- or should be -- to those invested in the RSSB narrative, is the alleged cover-up by the allegedly ‘perfect’ GSD of this alleged misdeed of this Sevadar person.)

[Appreciative Reader]

Quote Joe : If a guru has accomplished the objective of the path why would he be expected to behave in the same way that those who have not are instructed to behave?
(…)
that is an assumption you make that experiencing ultimate reality is the ultimate pleasure and will eliminate all pursuit of worldly pleasures. How do you know that?

I’ve loved this series of exchanges, Joe, and Brian, and Spencer, nodding my head in agreement with every argument put forward by each of you, on either side of the issue.

What you say makes sense, Joe. And so does Brian’s response (that this logic can be used to overlook all kinds of misdeeds of all kinds of random criminals, especially given that we have no objective means of deciding if someone is actually enlightened), as well as Spencer’s argument (that this has been explicitly stated by the past RSSB masters, and therefore surely holds at least so far as the RSSB guru is concerned, even if not for all gurus everywhere).

I can think of a third response to offer : Buddhist traditions conceive of the realized one as someone who has no need to tarry in this world, and therefore often leaves the world altogether, but might sometimes stay on simply out of compassion, in order to help others. So that nothing the realized one would do can possibly arise out of any motivation other than to help others. There is literally no reason for such a person to carry any other desire or any other motivation. Transcribed to the GSD situation, that would mean one of two things : either GSD’s alleged misdeeds are deliberately designed to somehow help his followers (the “mud platform” argument that one sees many of the faithful offer here, in this thread as well as in other threads) ; or else it would mean that GSD is not realized (which is what the others have been saying, those other than the staunchly faithful).

[Of course, I realize this begs the question. Your original objection, that this argument makes presumptions about “enlightenment” and “realization”, does apply, absolutely, to this response of mine as well. Still, I thought I’d toss this out there, for what it is worth.]

[Appreciative Reader]

Quote Sheena : Why do they spend time reading your blogs and then spend even more energy and time arguing when their faith and belief are supposedly intact? Sense of insecurity, doubts?

I’ve often heard this particular argument put forward against the RSSB believers. Sheena uses it now, lots of other commenters have used it in the past, even Brian himself has used it a few times that I remember. And this argument has never made sense to me.

So some particular believer is somewhat insecure, and does have doubts. So what? Perhaps they even tipple on the sly, or binge on poached eggs and steak once in a while in secret, so what? So they aren’t some picture-perfect epitome of the tradition and the faith they seek to follow, so what? How does that bear on any argument -- good, or bad, or ugly -- that any of these faithful might have happened to put forward about anything?

This would-be counter-argument is an ad hom, plain and simple. Or so it appears to me.

.

Which is not -- let me add this, in case Sheena might happen to read this comment tagged on to this post that is about her -- to support any criticism that some here have heaped on her or her book. I’m no RSSB faithful myself, and I fully admire and support her expose of what she saw and experienced at Beas. This is just a subtext-free observation that occurred to me when I read this, that’s all.

Seen in isolation, this criticism is valid, and an interesting question to explore. In fact, now I think of it, it would be a great idea if Brian can put out a post, where he expressly invites the faithful to discuss why they persist in engaging with this blogsite, despite the express proscription against this sort of thing. Provided people come out and volunteer honest answers, the responses might provide a fascinating insight into how people think.

But my point is, when this criticism is tagged on as a would-be counter-argument -- and that is exactly the spirit in which it is always used, in my experience -- then it fails spectacularly. It is no more than an ineffective ad hominem fallacy.

(Although admittedly, it can be an effective piece of rhetoric, as long as this underlying fallacy is not clearly recognized. I’m assuming the intention is honest debate, not disingenuous grandstanding rhetoric.)

[One Initiated]

777,
Wow, that was a lovely comment indeed.
I shall at least share the tiny URL of this beautiful comment !
https://tinyurl.com/ycb9ejzo

Brian, I have a question:
Are you reading the 777's comments before deleting ?

[287daysleft]

AP:

You seem to be well informed on this issue so maybe you can explain to me what Gurinder actually did that was wrong.

Here is what has been said:
1. He's not a proper policeman for the Dera. Ok, not his job, there are policemen at the Dera, inappropriate behavior shoud be reported to them.
2. He didn't help her get the best price for her real estate sale. Not his job.
3. He didn't help her bring many boxes to Dera.
4. He caused her to lose face in front of people.
5. He's borrowed money from relatives. What were the terms?

Where does any of this go against his teachings?

.

[One Initiated]

Oh No,

That was the wrong tinyURL 777, that is pointing back to this page,
but when Brian would delete, the above comment will not appear on this URL.

This should be the URL for reference: https://tinyurl.com/ydbk3qjf

[Spence Tepper]

Hi 287:

6. He sold an RSSB charitable hospital (under his guardianship) to his private investment firm, destroyed it and sold it to Fortis (a for-profit company he is a major investor in).
7. His wife received siphoned funds illegally from Fortis for over five years.

You ask:

"Where does any of this go against his teachings?"

What is your concept of his teachings?

[One Initiated]

Brian, you wrote:

"One Initiated, I'm starting to get jealous. From your comment above I'm getting the feeling that you dislike Spence more than you dislike me. Please, tell me it isn't so! I want to be #1 on your Church of the Churchless Dislike List."

I don't dislike either of you, you both are brothers and elder to me.

Nonetheless, I dislike the deeds of both of you as you guys are hurting the feelings of millions.
Spence has recently joined you on this podium so you are still the leader if you wanted to hear this!

I also believe doing this practice of hatred, you are collecting the deserving karmas and the repayment might going to be a heavy which I hope not.
And I always wish you wisdom and Master's love and faith so that you can stay away from such insanity.

Occasionally some fools also join you on this blog in this hate spreading and name calling and abusing the Masters, thinking that you are the torch bearer and their leader and they are all protected by calling themselves with one name "Atheist" ... thinking that You are with them.
How ? Why ? When ? Can you ever drink a glass of water for someone else ?
They are all just stupid kids doing pathetic harm to themselves under your name.

Spence has mostly been doing the sort of similar thing as Jim was doing, however he is not realising that similarity. Jim got fastened on the joke and Spence on money.
Jim said that it's not big deal and that joke was something he could not bear, similarly Spence said he wouldn't mind if Master kisses a prostitute but this money thing is not acceptable.

In my opinion they both possibly have this as their own limitation and always trying to improve on these facets throughout their life and now can never see anyone having that and specially related to RSSB they can't even perceive the jokes around it and not even capable enough to foresee the great purpose of Master's actions.

As for you I feel all your emotions that you represent on this blog are Fake. Somehow I never feel the reality of your mind and inner feelings here. I believe you are just doing a huge huge pretension via this blog throughout all these years.
Also all what you said on CNN was also sounding super duper fake - your voice was not sounding real.
God knows why ? - Possibly related to the incident that you were disallowed from speaking. I can't say much - you have to open up one day.
You seems to be too rigidly and tightly closing yourself and claiming and shouting to the world you are an Atheist, however you don't appear like one.

[287daysleft]

ST:
I didn't know his teachings covered selling hospitals or being responsible for your wife's decisions.

.

[Spence Tepper]

Hi 287:

Still not sure what you understand Baba Ji's "Teachings" are...
There is a vow to live a clean, moral, life. That includes not violating ethics, including business ethics. It is illegal and an ethical violation in India for a vested interest ("Character of Interest") in a non-profit corporation to sell asetts to themselves, into their for-profit private holding company. Conflict of Interest. You may be unfamiliar with business ethics.

It's unethical also for a spouse to withhold evidence of fraud. They are then an accessory to that crime.

Not sure you are familiar with this principle of personal ethics.

That's why I asked.

[Brian Hines]

One Initiated, I love to point out your fake news. I've never been on CNN. I was interviewed by a reporter from India's CNBC TV 18. That interview was recorded, with her in India and me here in Oregon. Then CNBC TV 18 cleverly edited the recording to make it look like she was interviewing me live. I sounded perfectly normal from my end, sitting on my couch and speaking into a phone. The audio in the final program reflected the fact that it was a recording made from a transpacific phone call.

[Arjuna]

Guys live your lives - what on earth do you hope to achieve with all this nonsense - you are but tiny players in a game within a game with you are wasting your limited intellectual on!

Peace out!!!

[287daysleft]

ST:

So you are saying Babaji committed fraud. Why hasn't he been arrested? Why hasn't he even officially been accused of a crime?

Get back to me when he has officially been accused of a crime and the trial is over. Until then it is just gossip, rumor and ridiculousness. Or is it a matter that someone accused is already guilty without benefit of a trial in your view?

.

.

[Spence Tepper]

Hi 287
You wrote
"So you are saying Babaji committed fraud. Why hasn't he been arrested? Why hasn't he even officially been accused of a crime?"

Wow. A lot to unpack there.
If you will re-read what I wrote, there is evidence warranting a court investigation. Even his wife's business dealings, as well as those of the Singh Brothers and Gurindar's chosen mentor for them at Religare and Fortis, Sunhil Ginwhal (also had of the RSSB board) have all been investigated by two auditors, starting with the Luthra and Luthra audit at Fortis which uncovered and confirmed the siphoned loans. The second audit confirmed many of these went to Baba Ji's wife.

Generally speaking we don't set our range of wrong and right within the constraints of the court.

Adults can decide wrong and right for themselves. Unless their ability has been corrupted by their own "love" for someone else they place above the law. Then they wait for some other authority, like a court.

You can read the most recent article about the secret Dhillon family business sounds in this Forbes article that just came out three days ago.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/dennisjaffe/2018/09/24/how-to-lose-a-2-billion-family-inheritance-the-tale-of-the-singh-brothers-of-india/

[Spence Tepper]

Hi One
You wrote
"They are all just stupid kids doing pathetic harm to themselves under your name.

Spence has mostly been doing the sort of similar thing as Jim was doing, however he is not realising that similarity. Jim got fastened on the joke and Spence on money.
Jim said that it's not big deal and that joke was something he could not bear, similarly Spence said he wouldn't mind if Master kisses a prostitute but this money thing is not acceptable."

I've made a point not to criticize you personally since I don't know you. My point has been the alarming evidence of theft and fraud.

And I have invited you to comment upon those facts.

Who you are or who I am hardly matters. Nor do I claim to know Gurindar's role or reasons for this.

But it's clear that and fraud happened.
And criminal investigation is still underway.

I fully support a trial to establish responsibility for the stolen and missing funds.

What I would invite you to do is avoid any psychoanalysis of those who are presenting this information, even those with different views. And to avoid denigrating anyone.

It's understandable that someone as beloved as Gurindar who has done so much good would have his defenders.

I love Gurindar more than you can understand.

But be a good defender. Work the facts.

I'm only here because of them.

[One Initiated]

hi Brian,
Yes, I am sorry that was a typo - I didn't mean to write CNN - I was only referring to CNBC's interview.

hi Spence,

I never had a doubt about your or Jim's inner and spiritual experiences and I respect them and have always loved reading them.
I also remember Brian had a felt a lot of Love for MahrajJi and during his earlier time, he did cry and felt longing for HIM - I also respect those expressions. Irony is that Brian himself no longe values them.

Also, when 777 mentioned that Babaji are present inside him always along with MaharajJi, I don't have a slightest disbelief there.

Also, what HE has shown me and made me through I don't have a slightest of doubt left.

"I love Gurindar more than you can understand."
That's a contradicting statement Spence.

In reality no facts matter Spence, these might be the facts on this physical plane, every Master had to face the difficulties to accomplish their mission in this world which is setup by Kal, all govts. laws constitutions belongs to Kal not to Dayal.
How kind of law is this that the majority of funds of a nation are held with the bunch of the corporates and millions of poor people suffer daily due to poverty ?
How kind of law is this that political parties are getting ridiculously richer year over year ? what is the source of their income - no one can question that at all.

Masters takes decision for the well being of millions - which momentarily might appear odd.
I so much feel that Maharaj Ji, Bahadur Ji, Great Master - all must be congratulating HIM for carrying on all these proceedings with such an elegance in the middle of this tough world and great turbulence.

As said:
"Guru jo chahe so karda hai
Guru khali bhande bharda hai
Guru bhare nu vi khali karda hai
Guru jo chage so karda hai"

meaning:
Master does as he please
HE fills the empty vessels
HE empties the filled ones
Master does as he please

However, the current state of mind you are holding against the Master's proceedings,
you will only have to wait for the appropriate time and you'll be fine.

Master used exactly the same wordings in the last Saturday's english Satsang (which exactly I felt and commented here around 1 month ago)

"Master will never take actions to please the disciples".

[287daysleft]

ST:

The article you linked to doesn't even accuse Babaji of anything unethical or fraudulent. But if it had, which is doesn't, everyone is entitled to present their side of it.

So far, I have yet to hear of one thing he has done wrong or unethical.

Next time link to something at least accusing him of something.

So far, Sheena said he is not a policeman, insults people and gives bad investment advice & newspapers have said he gives bad investment advice.

Previously he was criticised for great investment prowess.

I guess presumed innocent until proven guilty isn't a thing anymore.

.

[287daysleft]

I guess Babaji had not forseen this:
https://www.livemint.com/Money/HcRE0hFQWpyXtduV2Y9wJI/2018-the-year-real-estate-died.html

Those that thought he was all-knowing may be disappointed which is a good thing. The all-knowing stuff was dropped from RSSB years ago from what I understand.

.

[Sarah]

I’m beginning to believe that if GSD sat in front of the Sangat and ate a plate of meat while drinking alcohol that all the zealots would say he did it to test our faith or something crazy like that. Funny how many RSSBers freak out over meat and alcohol but seem to think money laundering, temperamental outbursts and womanizing are just to test us. Please.

[Sarah]

And with regards to what happened to Sheena, it was way beyond the fact that GSD embarrassed her. The comment he said that embarrassed her was actually a humiliation and a lie. It was a completely inappropriate and disgusting remark. But then again that remark came from a guy who can’t go through an entire Q&A session without talking about his bowels and bathroom problems. Who really wants to hear about that?? Seriously.

Also, the advice that GSD gave Sheena regarding finances was completely unsolicited. He went out of his way to find her and suggest to her that she should invest in certain stock.

[Spence Tepper]

Hi Sarah!
What a great comment. The justifications, the minimizing, the twisting of one 's own morality.

You summarize with laser economy what I've been feeling about this.

I think the public comment to Sheena was an act of cruelty and torture.

Nothing less.

"Ye are the salt of the earth: but if the salt have lost his. savour, wherewith shall it be salted? it is thenceforth good. for nothing, but to be cast out, and to be trodden under foot of men."
Mathew 5:13

When people lose their ability to judge right from wrong, they've lost their humanity.

[One Initiated]

What HE said in the Saturday's 22nd September:

"Master will not take actions to please the disciples"

Either you can keep crying on HIS actions, and keep on judging him,
(without having to reach / realise SachKhand - thus all judging is Fake)
or can feel the love and can immerse in the Shabd.

[Spence Tepper]

287
You have asked why the protagonist in the story and the author may have lead different lives. In the process you have violated the author's privacy.

But the answer to your question is simple. This is a fictionalized story based on real events. Some of those events may have happened to the author and others witnessed or reported to the author by others.

As far as we know the author could be a man. But vibe is that matters. The author has confirmed the key incidents were real events.

Authors often create a protagonist to help us enter that world and experience it intimately, using real events so that we can understand that world as if we were going through those experiences ourselves, and so we can understand them better. It's literature.

The point isn't the protagonist at all. It is the world and the events in it she has opened the door to.

[Sarah]

OI, of course he said that in the September 22 Satsang. He has also said that Masters do not take on the disciples’ karmas which goes against what Charan Singh, Great Master, Sawan Singh and Baba Jaimal Singh have said.

I can’t accuse GSD of ever being warm and fuzzy. But I can accuse him of creating his own version of Sant Mat.

[Sarah]

Hi Spence,

“When people lose their ability to judge right from wrong, they've lost their humanity.”

EXACTLY! I couldn’t agree more.

[Spence Tepper]

Hi One!
You wrote:

"What HE said in the Saturday's 22nd September:

"Master will not take actions to please the disciples"'

I'm sorry One, perhaps this is out of context. But alone it is a terrible statement.
The Master is only here for us.

The Lord sends a True Master here to our level, to help us. We are in some ways helpless here.
We are helpless to get out.

They are here as our friend. Sometimes it is tough love.
But not all the time.

Sometimes they are really just to be here for us.

So you have it backwards, or you are the quote wrong.

We aren't the slaves of the Master, here to serve the King.

The King has put on the clothes of a slave, to be like one of us.

Or he is no true King at all.

[Mr. Curious]

IO said: "Master will not take actions to please the disciples"

It's not about "pleasing" the disciples, but rather of being a good example to them.

Isn't that the whole point of having a physical GIHF? A living example of the path one can refer to in the flesh?

If the master can't serve that purpose, it's better to worship a book, stone or other inanimate object.

[Spence Tepper]

Another point, One:

When the Lord sends a souls down here to help us, they are on assignment.
Their position as a Master is only to conduct a service to humanity.
They are not here to serve themselves. They have no personal life here.
What you would call their personal life is only at best to role model how we can conduct our personal lives.
They are here only for one purpose, their assignment, to help others.
Not to enslave humanity in service of the Master.

Being One with Shabd, they only have compassion and the deepest connection to each of us.

Try to go within One, and see what is really happening for yourself.

But you may also read your own comments to see what has happened.

In defense of the Master you might have chosen to understand the feelings and sentiments of the posters here.

Instead you are trying to explain why they are wrong.

Well, One, we are all wrong!
Join the club!

What you are doing will not help anyone.

Connecting to the Spirit opens to door to many, many Truths, first and foremost that we are far more alike than different. These paper thin shells of Karmic impression are nothing.

Therefore the Master and each of us are pretty much the same.

If they are a perfect Master, they represent that Spirit in the flesh perfectly. There are no other distractions or considerations. They aren't even close to actual Fraud. Not a misunderstanding, real fraud, proven fraud. $400M is gone at the hands of Sunhil Godhwani and the Singhs, money "loaned" and never repaid, and here's where it gets really bad...much of that to Baba Ji's wife.

"“Godhwani used his position to conceive and orchestrate a series of transactions over the better part of a decade that led to our Group’s debt load by 2016,” it added. It is clear that he used our trust in him to exercise undue influence and has taken advantage of the faith bestowed by both families, the statement said.

“We are sure (Gurinder Singh) Dhillon and his family would have had a similar expectation from Godhwani regarding management of their resources,” it added. Gurinder Singh Dhillon is the spiritual guru of the Radha Soami Satsang Beas (RSSB)."

Oh by the way, Sunil is on the board of RSSB!
And was assigned to help the Singhs by Gurindar, as confirmed by the testimony of the Singhs and others.

From

https://www.livemint.com/Companies/AWgVjGGFnPs2wvUl5qqgFP/Singh-brothers-say-Sunil-Godhwani-responsible-for-Groups-wo.html

These are facts already proven by two independent audits and the Fortis' board investigations.

So, yes, the Master isn't worrying about the disciples at all.

And that's a shame.

[One Initiated]

hi Spence,

"But alone it is a terrible statement."

Exactly that's what HE meant, HE is not here to please disciple's immature thoughts.
HE is here to accomplish a grand mission,
it's given that some disciples can not understand the purpose and will cry foul.

HE is always and only here for us and only us - HIS disciples, to help us rescue this planet,
but not to please and prove against our stupid allegations.
HE knows HIS duty and is not doing it to please our emotions and judgements belonging to physical plane.
HE is not answerable to you and me Spence,
you can meet HIM inside - where HE can answer everything, why don't you ask MaharajJi inside?
The day you would be able to do it, I am pretty sure you will repent a lot.

Falling prey in the trap if IQ is a proposition of loss, that's what many disciples have resorted to.
It still doesn't affect HIM to carry on HIS mission.

The Captain of the ship doesn't care if the passengers are crying and abusing HIM for the style of HIS sailing or the enormous waves - HE knows HE is taking the ship from something which is beyond the perception of the passengers.

HIS command is to stay in Love, keep meditating for 2.5+ hours daily without fail.

[Neha Nagpal]

One initiated.
I am not trying to demean you but have you met him inside? Your focus is too much on prooving your point but have you been enlightened?

[One Initiated]

hi Curious,

" A living example of the path one can refer to in the flesh?"

That's correct, but not in the middle of the hurricane.
In the adverse conditions HE can be seen in HIS Grandiose even on earth, however that's restricted.

Many disciples witnessed The Hazur on stage with four headed Lion roaring in all directions in the middle of turbulence that happened in Delhi (many decades ago).

Master act as per the NEED of the hour - all constitutions and laws are governed by HIM not by the corrupt governments of the corrupt nations.

[Two Initiated]

One Initiated - Why are you wasting your time here if you're already enlightened.

[One Initiated]

hi Neha,

If you closely analyse my comments, I am not trying to prove anything,
I am declaring about HIS Grandeur and I've been through some.

Before directly asking the personal questions,
would you instead provide some details about your background and yourself ?

[neha nagpal]

One initiated
I follow the path since i was born, initiated . And i am sorry for asking something so personal but my objective was just to say if u r enlightened why waste ur time here , if u r not u cannot be sure .if baba ji is a form of lord , why would lord need to be defended and if he is not then its a full stop . But if u r really like enlightened and na 100 pc sure of the path , i will be just glad to know personally. So as i said i didnt want to demean you but really asking genuinely interested in the ans because my above theory can be wrong too

[One Initiated]

hi Sarah,

You wrote:
"But I can accuse him of creating his own version of Sant Mat."

Nothing has changed in SantMat,
disciples are still required to sit on meditation for 2.5+ hours daily and spend as much time as possible in listening to the Shabd.
It's exactly same ever since Soami Ji Maharaj started explaining from the small house in Agra.

[Brian Hines]

One Initiated is completely wrong about nothing having changed in RSSB's version of Sant Mat. Gurinder Singh now says there are no inner regions; the guru doesn't have special powers, being an ordinary human being; and there is no journey back to God, among other changes.

Read the truth here:

http://hinessight.blogs.com/church_of_the_churchless/2018/08/gurinder-singh-completely-upends-sant-mat-dogma-.html

[Spence Tepper]

Hi One!
I'm actually doing the job Maharaji asked me to do.
And in this regard, Maharaji says.....sit back this is going to be a shock to you, as it was to me....

Brian is the real Satsangi here!!!

Now, are you going to address the facts of the case?
That is all that matters. The rest is interpretation.

One more point. Baba Ji also has a boss. He is also accountable to his own boss, as are each of us. He has a boss, just in case that got lost.

And one more point. None of us are perfect. A "perfect Master" would be like us...imperfect.
"Oh crap, my skills as an investor suck!! Wow, didn't see those millions evaporating...Sorry world...here are all my personal assetts...I pay my debts..."

That's actually a very noble and humble model.

Not "I'm a King, I can do whatever the fuck I want with Other People's Money!"

Talk to Maharji within about it, One.
Right and wrong. It's not a mystery. Don't let your emotions confuse you.

[s*]

It's not at all the same One Initiate.

There is a big difference.
More people recognise that.

[One Initiated]

Spence,

My earlier comment posted at: September 27, 2018 at 09:39 PM
already responds well to your above comment.

Question to you:
Would you mark 777's inner Darshan of Babaji along with MaharajJi as questionable ?

S*
By this time after all these years,
we should be mature enough and should not feel the need to discuss the box of the jewel.

After spending so many years in SantMat, isn't it a shame for us to compare the size of buildings, the artefacts and aesthetics of new hostels, the conveniences built for the ever growing volunteers and their children. that's just plain stupidity and the deeds of a superficial disciple.

Regions don't exist and all these talks are parables, disciple needs greater practice and inner experience to acknowledge and understand these things.
Every saint's style is different but the essences remains the same. Best is to read the conversations of Rumi and Shams Tabrizi which are all always of this tone.
These aren't the topic of debates.
It's actually wastage of time discussing and debating these things instead of experiencing them.
These talks from the Master are in similar lines as Guru Nanak Ji said to Bhai Lehna at midnight: "How beautiful the Sun is shining".

Tell me a single instance when HE has told to not (or HE has not told) to focus and spend time on Shabad and that is the only way to progress!

[Sarah]

OI, he has said recently that...

1. We are already in Sach Khand (so... no need to go anywhere?) -Dec 2017
2. When people see a vision of Jesus, Mohammed or even the Master inside, that it is a projection of the mind. -Oct 2016
3. The purpose of meditation is to just simply still the mind—no inner journey stuff. Feb 2018

His view on meditation is very Buddhist which explains the dozen prominent Buddhist statues on a dedicated wall facing his office window. That’s the view from his desk. And nothing wrong with that... just a bit curious for an RSSB guru. You’d think he’d have picture of his Master, Charan Singh, but nope. He’s got a dozen Buddhas to gaze upon all day.

[Sarah]

Like they say...

If it looks like a duck, swims like a duck, and quacks like a duck, then it probably is a duck.

[Spence Tepper]

Hi Sarah
In a bass akwards sort of way his systems help explain the arrogance of his actions.

In the hospital management consulting world I live in, we have a term for consultants who think they know all the answers, and prognosticate, rather than collaborate. The FE, or Fucking Expert. This is the worst kind of consultant. They come in with the presumptive view that they know more and better than than the hospital's management. They've already conducted their assessment and have the solutions all lined up in 130 bullet slides.

The On the other hand, the best consultants who produce the most sustainable results take a blank piece of paper, and while shadowing a nurse and seeing what they have to go through every day ask, "OK, so what would you change if you were in charge?"

Sadly, we've got an FE Guru here.

[One Initiated]

Spence,

You are now talking all mind crafted stuff and way beyond your pay scale.

I hope and wish you will realise your mistakes and feel ashamed before the sunset and have some good years in Love.

You've resorted to ugly name calling the Master and abusing HIM with your filth of your mind.

You are just becoming uglier with every passing day and every next comment.

Your comments have started to stink badly.

[Spence Tepper]

The system of RSSB, by promoting the perfection of the Guru, and the worship of the Guru as perfect, is a corrupting system at its core.

No doubt there have been many corrupt Gurus, maybe all of them.

However, if the teachings of Sant Mat are true, and realized souls have come here to offer a path to Truth within, they would not adopt such a corrupt monolithic system to impart their teachings.

They would come as our friend, as one of us, to help us learn to grow our own connection to truth from our practice.

They would never attach themselves to a system that advocates worship of the Guru.

That is, by its very design, a corrupting system.

Not simply for the Guru but all the followers.

It is disingenuous for the Guru to chide the followers for trying to use the Teachings or the perfection of the guru to justify their own weaknesses, because the system relies upon blind faith.

Upon deeper consideration, blind faith is one side of a coin whose bottom side is self - justification. The two are part and parcel of the same thing, with the Guru being handed by the very system of belief in the Guru as God, the ultimatum excuse for personal weaknesses. RSSB is actually a manufacturing plant for self - justifications to cover personal corruption.

And so by excusing the Guru's weaknesses and indulgences on spiritual grounds, every member of that religion has been handed a mechanism to do the same.

In order to remain in that corrupting system, sincere initiates must inevitably make excuses for the Guru, and then for oneself.... The very opposite of what brought them to the path.

The RSSB system itself, while mirroring the truth of what is in each of us, is a corrupting system. It's a copy of a copy.

But where there are copies, there among them is the original.

I don't think that original is in any organizion at all.

I don't think those teachers have a formal role at all.

[One Initiated]

777 wrote:

Hi Judgers,

May I please respectfully remind all that Seth Shiv Dayal
was ab aweful businessman

He destroyed almost the family company
several times
by being ti compassionate

I have years ago stated on this blog
that THEN (around 1872 )he came to me
2 lives back and said bravely ( I had a lot of
material assets and power )

and said :
"Sir, . . . you know you are bound 4 hell and very deep

However, . . I have a business proposal for you
which will cost you > half your fortune .
The amount of funds equals easily the present billions speculated here

If You agree , I will save your Soul

And I ( being a murderer in the Halliburton sense) ,
I said without any hesitation . . . . . OK, . . it's a deal !

Then I did what he asked
It was not for HIM personally but for the good of the country
even humanity
and for elevating a then SO primitive culture

I saw in His Beautiful eyes that HE could do it !
I took the deal and still SEE HIM
He was a sweet Giant
His Master Tulsi had been even more excentric
and money played no role, never
as it doesn't do @Gurinder
but many times contraversic

All your calculations make no sense in God's eyes
and harm you and slander harms even more

Indeed
Master does as he please
HE fills the empty vessels
HE empties the filled ones
Master does as he please

I remember daily ( specially when multiple serendipities happen:

"He gives to One and takes from another
It is all HIS CLEVER DECEPTION". Add Granth

Put this together with
Ishwar's father's book - translation: Sir Bachan - last page :

"For this reason I have created Kal,
because without Kal,
man has no fear "

This is often resonance in my mind

This sole unique Path is so terrific
and sweet at the same time
and I don't even speak about the Sounds
including the Flute, the Bin, Veena , Sarangi, OMG
You have no clue
where you are mingling in sir Brian

777
manmukh first Class ( as Jim knows )
but Seth Shiv indeed Dayal keeping his "business" agreement each day
including Darshan
Again : What are u doing here ?
Don't attack a God man

[Sarah]

Spence,

“They would come as our friend, as one of us, to help us learn to grow our own connection to truth from our practice.

They would never attach themselves to a system that advocates worship of the Guru.”

_____________

So true...

GSD is not a very gentle soul. If you’ve ever noticed, he practically cringes when someone brings up the topic of forgiveness at Q&A. He’s very much an Old Testament kind of guy—“eye for an eye” and all that. Hazuur used to say that the Masters take on a large part of your karmas—that’s sort of “their thing”. But GSD is like all Cobra Kai. He’s kind of a dick.

[Spence Tepper]

Gentleman nothing you write will ever make any adult forgo their capacity to think for themselves, to see right and wrong, and to question when the see wrongdoing.

Real meditation is entirely designed to help us see truth, not to turn from it.

[Spence Tepper]

Hi One
You wrote
"Your comments have started to stink badly."

Just opening the lid on the evidence of corruption reveals that.

When a surgeon opens the stomach they already know it's not going to be pleasant. Their training and discipline keeps them going.

The smell hardly matters. They are there for the patient and know this step must take place.

They've had years of uncovering bad stuff and fixing it.

So when they realize some of that is also within themselves, they are humbled and do not complain about others at all.

This humility is what RSSB has lost, as evidenced in your comments.

[Arjuna]

@ Spencer - calm down buddy - let this play - play out.

Omg I feel sad at what I have read but take a chill pill.

Let it play out.

The truth may not be the truth you are seeking or hoping for. Let this play out - it’s already happened millions of times before as my friend who saved me on the battlefield told me! Chill man!!!

@ One Initiated - brother I have started mediation - see you inside. 😀. I will be the big tall one !! Ha. Peace and love. And you too chill out! There are many devils and she devils on this blog too. Chill man!

[Sarah]

@Arjuna

😇 or 😈❓🤔

[Arjuna]

@ Sarah - hello. I’m both myself to be fair. Some days the good guys wins and cones out 😇.

Hope you are well - question for you? Did you ever meet and speak to Gurinder?

[Spence Tepper]

Hi Arjuna!
I'm good. We're just sharing thoughts.
I'm not making personal accusations and I don't think it reflects well on anyone to do so.

I love my Master and I have sacred inner experiences of divine things. If that is my biology, hail biology!

But I'm imperfect. And anyone can fall.

So what we, who love truth, are left with are these things, which Maharaji has beatifully described in various places :

1. the necessity to use our best judgment. We use it anyway in deciding what to believe. Let's use our best judgment. Let's put aside emotions and subjectivity and even what we want to believe. Let's look at what facts we have.

2.truth invites Inspection. You don't have to deny the existence of facts in order to reach a different conclusion. Truth will always win out in the end so long as we are willing to keep looking objectively. So while we should really wait to judge until there is enough information, we should not avoid the facts. Fraud has already been proven, repeatedly. Money was siphoned illegally and in secrecy to Baba Ji's wife, never repaid, and the facts covered up with other phony loans. That's a fact. Already proven. And all the players got their positions at Baba Ji's hand. So that's the truth.

What remains is the detailed understanding of who is to blame, who is responsible.

Spiritually, it's the captain of the ship. Or else he is no captain.

The only way to successfully attribute blame to the others and leave Baba Ji innocent is to acknowledge he didn't really know what he was doing, and what the others he promoted did.

But then he is not perfect by the standard set by the Sangat of faithful believers in the notion he can do no wrong.

3. Avoid bad company. We should withdraw from those who do not help us meditate with full devotion to God.

As perfect as true saints are we can never make that attribution.

We can only see if someone's actions are helpful or hurtful to our practice. If the latter, we should avoid association with them. Their title and all the emotional appeals of others aside, please.

[Sarah]

Hi Arjuna,

Yes, I did meet and speak with Baba Ji at his office in the Dera. I wasn’t nervous at all. They say many people, especially women will start to cry when they have the opportunity for a 1:1. I’m not the type to cry much either...

As I said, I wasn’t nervous at all and he just kept smiling at me but as I was speaking my voice was really shaking. He must have thought I was very anxious but that wasn’t the case at all. You see, the thing with me is—has always been a “tell”—when I’m speaking with someone who either doesn’t like me or isn’t a good influence for me then my throat chakra seizes... that’s the only way I can describe it. So, it caused a sort of cognitive dissonance. And I was in a bit of a hurry to get out.

[One Initiated]

Thanks Brian.

Arjuna:
"@ One Initiated - brother I have started mediation - see you inside"

That was so good to hear that brother. You made my day.

Indeed, I do feel that we will meet some day :)

Please also consider the nuisance going on is only the tip of the iceberg, the environment suggests that much more political mess is forthcoming in India, many negative powers are collectively working against RSSB - and Master do the preparations in advance.
To carry forward the true spiritual mission at such scale, we can't even imagine the hardship HE has to go on daily basis.
The spark of the faith that's got ignited in your heart is by HIS grace, don't let your faith get derailed by these worldly proceedings.

This faith gets converted into love by spending as much time as we can in listening to the Sound.

Even five minutes daily works wonders. As always mentioned, consistency actually pays off.
Instead of sitting one hour a day and skipping for weeks, it's much better to sit 15 minutes daily - one can always increase slowly on per week basis.

Simran is only and only to let our mind be focused and be able to relieve all other thoughts/simran of the world, and being in that state when we sit on listening to the Sound, we start to enjoy it and feel it, that's the real progress on The Path.

And eventually we will start to feel an inexplicable Love from within which is just beyond the description of words. If once you will taste it by HIS grace and your efforts, nothing else can ever bother you.

Lots of Love to you brother. Have a great inner+outer times :)

[Dharam]

One Initiated
Delighted to know that you had a meeting with Soami Ji in the year 1872
when He offered to save your soul.
I am curious to know that you should be minimum 170 years old that way but I have not heard any man living of this age.Are you talking of your previous birth? Really interesting .please explain in detail.
My Highest Regards to You

[One Initiated]

hi Dharam,

It's about 777 not me.
That's the real account shared by 777,
and yes as it's mentioned it's about his last to last birth.

You can search more for his amazing comments by googling "Church of churchless + 777"

[Dharam]

One Initiated
Could you please provide dates or topics where 777* commented if convenient to you.

[seeker]

Arjuna - What made you change your opinion? As far as I remember you were at one point very skeptic about everything.

[Spence Tepper]

Hi 777
Allow me a brief moment of jest...Apologies in advance..

You write
"HE, SHE does nothing THAN accumulating LOVE
The most stupid thing She does will turn into LOVE.."

And cash!
Accumulating cash.
But maybe love is cash at RSSB?

But not as much as planned!

We must not "Love" him enough!

[Neha Nagpal]

777
Well what my knowledge tells me is enlightenment is knowing the truth . Being aware of reality . And i think spirituality is all about it .

[Arjuna]

@ seeker - hello. Good question! I lost faith in myself. And started becoming skeptical - but when I sat down and had a really good think, I came to the conclusion that there is something there.

I have had experiences in the real world and would be a fool to think we are not helped if we allow the higher powers - just one little chance to help us.

It’s hard but one must push on. I appreciate that there is a lot going on with the financial situations as reported on here but I am going to let it ride out. Let’s see what happens. Let’s face it who is without sin.

I could become an atheist like Brian - but what would that achieve - more emptiness in a life already quite empty. These people on here write better than me as they are more educated discussing things none of them know about the mind - in all truth and honesty and their so called freedom is like a fat guy trying to lose weight but hitting McDonalds hard every day to binge eat. That’s how I view them. They bash Master but yet have nothing in return to offer but their imagination of what they think reality is! They are more lost than some RSSB followers like me who did not mediate. Even scientists are more open to questioning that there may be a driver behind all this play! Sorry don’t appreciate athiests - devils in human form if you ask me! But there is hope as they WILL worship the Lord more than me or you one day! Please don’t ask how I know - just do!

God bless

[Arjuna]

@ Spencer - hello!

The reason I said “chill” is due to the fact that I don’t like to see you disturbed!

You are awesome as you minds frequency is quite extraordinarily powerful - you know it and have answers to things which I could not even contemplate the questions too!

All the best and god bless

[Arjuna]

@ One intiated - hey high five from me!

I like you and can’t say anything except that I must do what I need to see ultimate reality.

You may like this- get yourself a book “becoming supernatural” by dr joe dispenza!

The introduction startles you - a yogi in Tibet sone eight hundred years ago left his handprint in rock - yes rock. Milarepa was his name! They have power these folk to fuse into rock as there is no rock so to speak I guess. But it and read it brother!

See you inside and drinks (tea, milk and two sugars) on you! Ha 😀

Big hug brother and love

[seeker]

Arjuna - Thanks for your response. I feel the same. I never really understand the concept of Atheism. There is obviously some power which governs the universe. There is a creator. However I believe that Faqir Chand clearly mentioned the role of a master.

Have you read about Faqir Chand and his teachings? It makes sense and so upto the mark.

[Spence Tepper]

Hi Arjuna!
Beautiful response.
Love your strength!

[Arjuna]

@ seeker - hello.

No thank you asking me that question! You made me think. I don’t want to be a negative person so that’s why I had to train myself out of the hell hole I was heading to!

Truth be told not much interests me in this world bar meeting nice people and feeling the love and their hopes! Athiests drain the life out of me! I would take them seriously and appreciate their stance but they have 0 to offer! I guess Richard Dawkins has a lot to answer for! What a silly man!

I am glad I’m not the only one - after all we are all brothers and sisters with a link here on earth!

I will check and read what you suggested - thank you for your kind advice. Have a great day wherever you are and God Bless.

[seeker]

Arjuna - You will have a roller coaster ride after going through Faqir Chand's teachings. I have been following Sant mat since I was a child, as all my family members are initiates of Maharaj Charan Singhji, but there is some voice within me telling "There is more to it".

I have read almost all the books of RSSB and the one written by Brian too and yes I could see the change in teachings with respect to RSSB. I feel the current master has aligned the teachings to that of Baba Faqir Chand but then that makes me wonder what about the old teachings?

You too have a great day and God bless.

[Appreciative Reader]

Quote @287daysleft : AP:--- You seem to be well informed on this issue

Not at all, 287daysleft. I lack the experiential knowledge of the RSSB path/tradition that people like One Initiated, and Spence, and 777, and Jim Sutherland, and others have. I also lack the intimate first-hand knowledge of these things that many of the RSSB initiates have, starting with Brian himself. Yes, having been a reader of this blog for some time, I am aware of the things that have been discussed here, and I have formed my own conclusions ; but I realize that my views may well be a misinterpretation of the facts, and that my knowledge of the facts (in as much it is predicated on second- and third-hand accounts) might itself be mistaken.

Since we’d been discussing this issue, I presented my views on it, such as they are. That’s all.

(Sorry for the belated response, incidentally. Hadn’t checked in here in a while.)

Quote @287daysleft further : maybe you can explain to me what Gurinder actually did that was wrong.

Sure, since you ask, I’ll tell you what about all of this feels wrong to me personally.

Quote : Here is what has been said:
1. He's not a proper policeman for the Dera. Ok, not his job, there are policemen at the Dera, inappropriate behavior shoud be reported to them.

Don’t you see the similarities here with the choir-boy diddling priests within the RCC? Sure, GSD himself isn’t indicted (just like the Pope, or at least the current Pope, isn’t indicted), no question of that, but I’m afraid he does have things to answer for there.

Provided Sheena’s account is truthful -- and I grant you this, that I have no way of knowing if it is -- but provided she isn’t lying outright, then for GSD to have covered up the alleged molestation by one of the RSSB Sewadars, even when personally intimated about this, surely you see that this is ethically not something even a regular normal decent person would do, leave aside a “GIHF”! In today’s climate of heightened sensitivity about these things, this kind of callousness within an organization may actually be seen as not just unethical, but illegal as well. (Although of course, I suppose India hasn’t quite caught up with the rest of the world in these things, so perhaps not literally illegal. Still, unethical certainly, no doubt about that. At least that is my view, for what that is worth.)

Quote : 2. He didn't help her get the best price for her real estate sale. Not his job.

Agreed.

Quote : 3. He didn't help her bring many boxes to Dera.

To be honest, I don’t even remember what this was about. Rather than going back and burrowing through that old post to find out about this was all about, let’s simply let this one go.

Quote : 4. He caused her to lose face in front of people.

This seemed a case of egregious asshattery to me. (Always provided that Sheena is being truthful.)

Perhaps there might be some background to this, some circumstance that might explain that remark? If there is, then one can only form a view of this basis knowledge of those circumstances.

But seen in isolation, this does seem like an uncommonly callous remark to make. Not something any decent person would do!

But sure, no question of actual illegality here, I’ll grant you that.

Quote : 5. He's borrowed money from relatives. What were the terms?

This has been discussed in great detail in this blog, so I’ll not try to recount all of those details. Others have already done that, far better than I can. But since you asked, here’s my impression, here’s my view of what is wrong here.

In the corporate world, giving out unsecured loans (or inadequately secured loans) to an interested party is not considered very ethical. Depending on the circumstances, it may also be actually illegal. (You can see how the interests of the shareholders of the lending company might be compromised, surely? That is why international accounting norms mandate that all such related-party loans, irrespective of the security pledged, be clearly listed separately.)

Apart from legality, here’s the thing : Why would a spiritual man, a spiritual master at that, embroil himself (and his family) in all of these unsavory deals at all? For what reason?

And apart from the unsavory nature of these deals (as well as the potential illegality), here’s a further thing that occurs to me : Why would someone whose life is all about spirituality, all about these divine experiences within (and this divine mission without), waste his time and energy on these mundane business deals? It does seem that he and his family have enough to live a simple life on : why this greed, then, for more and more and more?

And it isn’t as if GSD were to the manner born. Had it been his father who’d founded Ranbaxy, and had it been the case that he’d simply inherited this huge business, then -- like the fabled King Janaka of yore -- he'd only have been maintaining the status quo, that is all, doing what came naturally and effortlessly to him. But here we have him rolling up his sleeves and actually starting all of these new business ventures (or at least, acquiescing with his very close relatives doing this, and using his name in doing this): surely this burst of entrepreneurial initiative seems to go against the grain of of an other-worldly and spiritual worldview?

.

There are a great many other things that seem distinctly off to me. For instance, off the top of my head :

Like his son having received large numbers of shares of some company (I forget which company exactly) at face value. That’s unethical, and probably illegal as well. And while this was something that was between his son and the owners of the company, GSD did not speak out against it, did he? Blatant conflict of interest, and all that, given his Guru-dom.

Then that company of his wife’s that got into real estate by siphoning off funds from his nephews. Those are typically the kinds of shady deals that shady “businessmen” (emphasis on the scare quotes!) engage in, not spiritual guides! Again, decidedly off, at one level ; decidedly unethical, at another level ; probably illegal, at yet another level.

Then that old story, discussed in the past, about the Secretary or President of the Bombay branch being made to hand his expensive residence over to RSSB, and GSD personally conniving to ensure that that property did end up coming to RSSB. (Admittedly, this last is simply hearsay. But there was a certain internal consistency to that story, even if no objective evidence that I know of. Again, this may or may not be technically illegal, but certainly it comes across as unsavory. Of course, had this been the only such incident, then sure, one would have either ignored it, or else taken it with a huge fistful of salt ; however, in conjunction with everything else, you end up getting a cumulative picture -- albeit a provisional one -- that isn’t very …well, very trust-inspiring.)

.

Quote : Where does any of this go against his teachings?

Like I said, I lack the detailed knowledge of specifically the RSSB teachings themselves that some of you have, so perhaps I am not the best person to answer this.

But certainly, all of this sends bad vibes to me, as this goes against my own general ideas about spirituality. (Which, I realize, is begging the question. To ascribe to my own impressions about spirituality some objective absolute validity would be to bring in a blatant No-True-Scotsman fallacy, I grant you that. But I’m only speaking for myself here.)

And here’s what I, personally, and speaking for myself, find wrong with all of this :

At the extremity of all this, there is the very real possibility of actual illegality. (And yes, I suppose the courts will pronounce on that, eventually. On the other hand, can we be sure there was no illegality even if no guilty verdict is pronounced? We do know that courts are not infallible. The example of the RCC shows how pliable courts can be even in the so-called First World, how they act only when pushed to it, and sometimes not even then. How much more iffy must be the legal system in India, when it comes to sensitive religious groups like these!)

Many of these things, even when not actually illegal, are decidedly unethical. Even some regular honest decent person, who has nothing to do with spirituality or religion, will probably not be comfortable doing these things. Surely it sends out wrong signals when a supposed “GIHF” fails to live up to the standards of even some normal regular decent person?

What I said earlier, about the incongruity of a supposedly God-absorbed man spending so much time and effort on mundane worldly business ventures, not inherited businesses but ventures that he and his family have actually gone out of their way to initiate. (This last would be perfectly fine, absolutely, for any ordinary, non-Guru person. Lots of people do this sort of thing, with no one dreaming of pointing fingers. But I find this suspicious, and off-putting, when the one doing all of this is a supposedly other-worldly Guru, and an alleged "GIHF" at that.)

.

Sorry, long-winded and extremely involved answer! Perhaps more so than you’d bargained for!

But thank you for giving me a chance to clearly formulate, in my own mind, what my own particular personal objections to RSSB are, in the context of this recent spate of exposes here.

[Arjuna]

@ seeker - all the very best and nice talking. I will read what you suggested.

Take care my friend

[One Initiated]

Arjuna,

Yay !! Super duper high five !!

Thanks for the book recommendation, will go through that in course of time!

I shall admit here that I am not at any significant advanced stage - I am just as struggling a disciple as you, and whatever stage it is, I've been advised to stay mum,
though HE has made me to through some outstanding incidents both inner + outer
and so I feel a lot of Love and have faith on HIM and that I am HIS disciple forever!
I am sold to HIM no matter what - HE stops my breath in every satsang (some will understand this)

It will be too egoistic to say about having unshakable faith as we all have witnessed such advanced Satsangis getting trapped in the mind games - it's not easy and it's best to always ask HIM for HIS blessings to keep this faith inside our hearts. the mind and kal are too compelling to face and not lose the faith.

And yes in HIS Satsang I do experience some amazing things. Can't explain, can only be experienced if one sits under HIS feet by keeping Love in heart.

The aim is to get lost in HIS Love. The aim is to meet HIM inside.
I am not completely sure how it works, but I've heard incidents where disciples meet inside too.
When HE will be too busy we two can chillax and have some fun ;)

Yes, yes, drinks are always on me !!
Also in India if you'd travel to, keep me posted!

Wish you a fantastic time !!

[Arjuna]

Hey One Initiated - loved reading your response. Stay true as will I.

And please get that book - I need your opinion on it.

All the best and mediate hard - even the scientists are now aware that the human body’s energy changes matter- controlled obviously through a focused mind. Through mediations

Catch you soon - god bless

[Brian Hines]

Arjuna, so where's the evidence that the human body's energy changes matter? I'm not aware of this, unless you mean the obvious: that all living beings transform food of some sort into energy of some sort. But there's nothing mystical about this, it's just chemistry and physics.

[Spence Tepper]

Hi Brian!
I'm guessing Arjuna meant grey matter. Meditation alters our grey matter

https://www.forbes.com/sites/alicegwalton/2015/02/09/7-ways-meditation-can-actually-change-the-brain/#6aed7a5a1465

[Arjuna]

@ Brian - now that’s surprising! It’s a few scientists and doctors who have conducted experiments and proven it! A few of them have come out at the rest of being debased by the follow the flock.com naysayers!

Check a few of these out and please read their books!

Dawson Church
Dr Joe Dispenza. This guy gave up being sensitive to the whole of the science community and said things as they are.

Have fun.

PS - atheist make me believe in God stronger than you can possibly imagine so I bow and thank you.

All the best

[Arjuna]

@ Spencer - yes spot on buddy - mediation does alter grey matter - but also the extreme focus required brings out energy and life force Into check.

That’s why a proper Yogi can make it rain and stop a train with thought.

But you know that already so feel silly telling you that.

All the best and respect

[Spence Tepper]

Hi Arjuna
Whatever energy you unlock, digest it.
Give it to Baba Ji, where it came from.
Complete the circuit.
Or more precisely, don't attempt to reroute it for any reason.
Certainly not for your own purposes.
Just enjoy it internally.
Between you and your Master.
Keep it low, Dude, under the radar.

[Arjuna]

Hello Sarah - hope you are well.

Sorry for late reply - missed your post. I like your style - I too don’t let anyone faze me but I can come across as machine like as I like to look into the person(s) I am speaking to - their eyes.

The way I see it - why be nervous of anyone! Unless they are dodgy - and then naturally the defence mechanisms come up.

Why - if I may ask- where you in a hurry to get out?

Best wishes

[Jen]

Sarah said re Gurinder (Sept 28): "His view on meditation is very Buddhist which explains the dozen prominent Buddhist statues on a dedicated wall facing his office window."

Way to go! So happy to hear this. Makes sense of the things he has been saying.

He's actually being honest in revealing in so many ways, especially with his joking attitude, that he is not a PLM. He is just a figurehead of a religious community doing the best he can. I don't have a problem with that because after many years as an initiate I now know I have to slowly steadily follow my own spiritual path, taking the middle way, seeking the truth.