Good summary of Gurinder Singh Dhillon financial issues

Here's a good overview of why it makes sense to raise questions about the financial affairs involving the guru of Radha Soami Satsang Beas, Gurinder Singh Dhillon. 

It was written by Spence Tepper, who left the following comment on a recent blog post. I like the logical, reasonable way Tepper laid out the reasons concerns have been raised about those financial affairs in the Indian business press. 

As he says, other people might draw different conclusions from the facts known to date. That's fine. And as more facts come out, other conclusions can be reached. 

Here's links to some of the stories in the business press:
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/features/2018-08-16/billionaires-and-the-guru-how-an-indian-family-lost-2-billion
https://www.businesstoday.in/magazine/the-hub/the-baba-singh-brothers-and-the-squandered-rs-225000000000/story/281437.html
https://www.cnbctv18.com/views/the-devotion-of-the-singh-brothers-of-fortis-runs-deep-into-their-businesses-63575.htm

I've corrected a few typos in the comment. Otherwise, what follows is how it was written.

All this is only to support an open mind, and encourage the courts to investigate thoroughly. There already is the court judgements and the FDA judgments against the Singh brothers. Those are thoroughly documented.

Now we have the Luthra investigations and those of the Fortis board, and others, into illegal loans, and the terminations of the Singh brothers. Those are matters of record.

Next are the $400M in unauthorized and uncollateralized loans to the Dhillons basically embezzled from the Fortis hospital system. And finally that those Dhillon loans were never paid, but serviced by creating new loans based on collateral of the Dhillons in part based on the artificial value bolstered by the prior loans.

When you look at all the information, you see that one individual funded the expansion from the trusts into Religare, mentored the Singh brothers, signed his wife and family members as principles in a number of new shell companies, including the Fortis healthcare acquisition, and then promoted the Singhs as principles at Fortis : Gurinder Singh Dhillon.

The legality of all this is up to the courts. The atribution of blame is up to the courts.

But the ethics of nepotism involved, of siphoning and embezzlement, of illegal leveraged loans on top of leveraged loans, and the business entity whose name is the center of all of this is well supported: Gurinder Singh Dhillon.

Such activists have nothing to do with being a Sant Sat Guru. Is devotion to saving souls really just a sideline? All that I was taught by Maharaji, by Sawan and Jaimal Singh, says the opposite. Love of the lord is the single occupation of the Saints.

You might draw a different conclusion. It is your right to do so.

And if any of this is actually Baba Ji's intention, it is not to throw off those who accept their responsibility to make their own decision, regardless of the outcome. It is to throw off those who cling to superstitious myths, so attached to their salvation they cannot let any risk enter in, even relinquishing their dignity as adults.

Yes, this may be part of Baba Ji's plan. Though you would have to go within to see it. And the plan is the destruction of the religion that RSSB had become, and the corrupt financial institution that is the current RSSB.

Who better to do this than the Master?

Comments

[dharam]

mr. Brian
you have crossed the limits in writing abusive language. i request you to remove abusive language and picture from your blog immediately.
i would like to narrate a story to u. some persons called 'bear' to some sangat asking for parshad in the congregation of a sikh guru and they had to be born as bears and again they were liberated from the species of 'bear' by the next guru.hope u might understand.
i remind u there is heavy punishment by the God for the pain givers and criticisers of saints as per gurubani which is like bible.
and thes press reports or other reports cannot be said as true or conclusive.and you better mind your business for sake of your soul.

[Jesse]

Dharam, worshipping stupid criminal men is a bad idea. Nobody here is scared of the consequences of insulting your pharaoh.

[dharam]

i think you are an emotion less person like your father who had no emotions for you and soyou are playing with the emotions of thousands of devotees of RSSB.have some emotions..do not behave like a rascal .be a gentleman.

[Sarah]

One thing people need to keep in mind is that none of GSD’s business dealings are separate from RSSB. All of the money flowing in and out of the Dera for the sake of services, construction, building equipment, etc. is done through these shell companies, subsidiaries and related groups. RSSB seva money and generous estate donations (largely from Westerners) is synonymous with Dhillon/Singh companies.

There is a reason why GSD used the original iconic Satsanghar to have sevadars count the seva money—because he is that BOLD. He’s like the honey badger of gurus.

[Jesse]

"I'm a baby. It hurts to hear the truth give me candy and toys."

Dharam

[Brian Hines]

Dharam, you don't know me. Yes, I've written about my father, who I got to meet for one hour in my life. But I'm a lot more like my mother, who was a passionate political conservative who cared deeply about her town, her state, her country. Also, about learning truths about the world. She was a voracious reader and thinker.

I'm the same in that regard. I have a lot of emotion for trying to do what is right, and trying to avoid what is wrong. I'm imperfect. We all are. But I've always tried to keep facing toward the truth, and away from falsehood.

I'm a human being, just like you, just like Gurinder Singh, just like everybody.

I feel sad. I feel happy. I feel outraged (especially when watching news about Donald Trump). And every day, just about, I feel the need to write something on one of my three blogs that reflects truths about how I'm seeing the world.

[Arjuna]

@ Brian- keep the good work up buddy. You will encounter opposition when investigating and stating the news! I’m just a regular guy who is trying to find answers to some of the questions which have evaded the greatest minds since time immorial- is there God? Do we have free will? Etc and why have none of the numpties I’m with brought playing cards considering where we are ! Lol. All the best fella

@ spencer - that’s the best blog o have seen written on here! Brilliant work off art if I may say so!

[dharam]

dear Brian
did your mother teach you to write abusive language for a person whome you adored for 30 years and who is adored by millions of people.
it is quite clear that you are doing it just for being hurt by your termination of sewa as a pracher of the RSSB sect.
would you dare to write this type of rubbish language for a person who is adored in your country.
you agree that you are imperfect. if you really mean it ,remove the abusive post and picture from your blog. only then you can prove that you are a human.

[Jesse]

Dharam, Gurinder isn't adored. There have been multiple assassination attempts on him by Indians.

We have free speech in America. Either accept it or go cry alone in the dark like the baby that you are.
I'm gonna make an anti RSSB blog just for you Dharam. You'll like it.

[Brian Hines]

dharam, since you don't know me, and you appear to be new to this blog, allow me to point you to a post I wrote in 2005 after RSSB "fired" me as a satsang speaker because people were getting upset by what I was writing on this blog.

http://hinessight.blogs.com/church_of_the_churchless/2005/10/ive_been_fired.html

What I say in that post shows that I already had serious doubts about RSSB before I stopped being a satsang speaker. Here's an excerpt. Hope this helps you better understand the truth about me and this blog.

As I say at the end of the excerpt, it was natural for me to feel some pangs, since I'd been giving satsangs for about 15 years. But as I also say in this excerpt, I wasn't really bothered or surprised by what happened.
----------------------
Yesterday our local secretary informed me that he had been told by a regional representative, Vince Savarese, that my blogging about Radha Soami Satsang Beas (RSSB) had caused a lot of people to be uncomfortable. In New York. In India. All around the RSSB world.

Naturally I blurted out “Wow, that’s great! People are reading my blog!” It didn’t bother me to hear that I’ve been making some people uncomfortable. I regularly hear from others that they appreciate my posts, so it all evens out. Yin and yang. Like and dislike. Attraction and repulsion. That’s the way of the world.

Regardless, the RSSB powers that be don’t want me to be a speaker anymore. I said, “That’s fine. Now the folks at the Radhasoami studies discussion group who have been taking bets that I wouldn’t last as a speaker beyond mid-2006 will feel vindicated.”

Interestingly, about ten days ago I’d been asked to write another article by an editor of the official RSSB magazine, “Spiritual Link.” She emailed me, “I so enjoy reading what you write on your blog. It is that kind of energy that I’d like to see in an article.” So what one hand chastiseth, another hand praiseth.

Since I’d been expecting to be charged with heresy at some point, the news of my firing didn’t affect me much. The only real pang came when I deleted two reminder items for next weekend on my Outlook calendar: “prepare satsang” and “give satsang,” since I’ve been speaking monthly for more than fifteen years.

[Arjuna]

@ Jesse - have you joined that gym yet!??

[dharam]

dear brother
that is why i said you have no emotions. you enjoy with lots of people being uncomfortable. you are a confused person. firstly ,a seeker is asked to thoroughly investigate before taking initiation. how can u say that you did not investigate before initiation and why did you accept the position of soeaker if you were not so sure about santmat. it shows your immaturity at that time and your are still immature.
Yes,He is adored by millions in india and thousands in other countries. so far attempts of attack is concerned,many saints,rishies ,peers were also attacked in past. they were tortured, hanged ,murdered and so on.
there were persons in their time also who were against them like you.and that proves there is KAL.
one thing i am sure that from the core of your heart,you know that you are doung wrong. you cannot be accepted as speaker now but still you can repent and meditate.believe that you were matured enough when you were speaker. but somehow immaturity came into you. only thing you ,like many others do not get result in meditation is that they do meditation but do not meditate with love and faith.Without love and faith mechanical simran or ,meditation does not yield results and sime people become mentally sick due to ignorance that they worked so hard but could not get results.

[Spence Tepper]

Hi Dharam
What Brian saw years ago, and tried to communicate, for years, has now been confirmed independently, repeatedly by facts in the press within the last eight weeks.

Everyone is forgiven for being ignorant. I forgive myself.

But it is wrong to blame Brian, Jesse or anyone pointing to the king who isn't wearing clothes. Rather, review the evidence. That is what is being presented here.

Then you are welcome to present your own perspective using those same facts, if you can.

But attacking the messengers means you are, in some ways, is topic.

At some point those facts must be reconciled within you. The facts don't go away and no, we aren't going to get off topic.

As for Brian (and Jesse) ?
Pretty fucking brave.

[Jesse]

@Dharam, you and I are not intellectual equals at all. I feel like I'm talking to a disabled child when you talk the way you do.
Emotions are something real. You feel real emotions about your family and friends. What you have is pathetic celebrity worship. You don't know Gurinder, you'll never meet him. He's a guy on a stage. Stop pretending like he's your grandpa. But I'd insult your grandpa too if he was a conman.

@Arjuna, I have been working a lot lately and doing some weight training at home. That's all for now.

[Marko]

Quote Dharam
.....there were persons in their time also who were against them like you.and that proves there is KAL.

Dharam your guru told many times there is no kal.
Why you satsangis wish so many bad things to Brian or Jesse or any other constructive critic? Didnt Charan said " critics are our best friends"
Where is Love where is honesty? Is your path really wishing others bad stuff?
If your path is shaken just by few critics than you must know you stand on really shaky ground.

[Spence Tepper]

Pretty Fucking Brave...
I'd like to at Bombay's name to the PFB list...

[Arjuna]

@ Jesse - good ! Get a punch bag - it helps with the conditioning. I’m 18 stone - eat far too much after a recent minor injury.

[dharam]

spence
press reports do not narrate truth. and till now even the press reports have not
said that RSSB Guru has done anything wrong. ,

[Arjuna]

@ Spence - how did you feel when you learnt all this? If I may ask.

You were always kind and gentle with me - and I try my best not to be an ass - as my military conditioning has a certain effect on us. So sorry if I ever offended you. You a bigger man than me!!! Not physically I’m over weight but in other ways for reviewing the facts and changing your mind and then writing a fucking awesome well reasoned and quite frankly a brilliant piece of literature.

[Jesse]

Marko, all those things are old school rs teachings. It used to be slightly more exclusive and there were higher expectations and standards to be a satsangi.
Nowadays someone isn't personally a satsangi in India. The whole family has to be. So whereas before one educated person would try to get initiated, now all the cousins, uncles etc do too.

20 years ago maybe they'd have a family deity that was worshipped on a particular holiday, but now they're all in a guru cult that supposedly requires all kinds of high moral standards, though most of these folks don't know or care about that. They simply changed deities, idols, murthis, whatever name you give it.

Gurinder is a celebrity idol that people pin their hopes for an afterlife on and nothing else. He might as well be a stone.

[Brian Hines]

dharam, have you been a satsang speaker for 15 years, like I was? Did you speak to both local and regional audiences, as I have? I bet you haven't.

Often, after I'd give a talk at a satsang or bhandara, expressing openness and maybe even skepticism about some RSSB teachings, I'd have satsangis come up to me after the talk and say, "Thank you. I thought I was the only one who felt that way,"

So you're wrong that I'm the only RSSB initiate who ever had doubts about the teachings,

[dharam]

He has never said that there is no kal. manypeople are misinterpreting Santmat and the discourses as per their cinveniiences. niw you say he is nit adored and you know that he is believed as GIHF. then how he is nit adored. and since you did not afore,you could not progress because that us the basis of santmat. you wrote si many books and preached but could nit progress ir realise a bit bkz you had no faith,no love for the master which isABC of santmat. so you may be intellectual in workdly affairs,but yioy are a baby as per Santmat and you do not know even ABC. you only preached with your intellect but to progress in meditation ,you only need faith and love for the living master. if you do not have faith and love for the living master,sorry you are not meant for Santmat.

[dharam]

there has been no change in santmat. santmat has been the same frim the start of the creation. these santmat version 1,2,3 have been interpreted by only those who are not ready to learn ABC i.e. faith and love for the living master.for example, every saint has said that there is one God . Saints have told there are different regions to the path to ONE. if the master says these regions are levels of consciousness ,you say santmat is changed but if you study deeoly ,you will find that every saint has said the same thing.

[Sarah]

I’m going to forego any attempts at being mature right now:

I CAN’T STAND HIM, I CAN’T STAND HIM, I CAN’T STAND HIM, I CAN’T STAND HIM.

GSD that is...

That was therapeutic for me. Sorry if it offends but I feel better now.

[dharam]

To summerize,santmat in 2 words,love and faith for the living master are the 2 legs with which you can tread to the path and these 2 legs take the devotee to the inner master who takes back to the soul to the ONE.

[Arjuna]

@ Sarah - start boxercising! Lol. It’s helps in mind and controlling ones aggression !

[Jen]

These words from Brian are the best he has ever spoken imo...

Brian said: (comment on the 'pig' thread) "You can't shut truth down. Truth is more powerful than you are. I don't know what truths are going to emerge about RSSB and the guru. Maybe he did nothing wrong, and everything right. Maybe he did everything wrong, and nothing right. Maybe the truth is somewhere in-between."

[Marko]

Dharam you are wrong GSd did say there is no kal ask David Lane who was in Dera last year.

[dharam]

Sarah
you cannot stand him because you do not have love and faith for him. and you can never love God directly unless you love a living master with faith.So you cannot realise self nor God. thet is ehy i sais Santmat is not for you.
you love your spouse,children unconditionally bkz of blood relation and to run the relation irrespective of their attitude,etc.
but a messenger of God without whom you cannot reach God ,you start analysing him after initiation. that means you are not the true seeker.you are still ready to meditate but mechanically which is futile. every name is to be repeated with love and faith for the living master and that can connect you to shabad. but you want to check dera accounts first.

[Sumit]

All,

Have you noticed this thing ? "The moment you say something to Brian", the first person to reply most of the times is either Jesse or Spence.
Just go through all the blogs comment section.

Sir Brian can you show us a chart (where number of views are compared) between a non RSSB blog and a blog against RSSB posted by you.
Because i read somewhere in your blog or may be in some of the comment that you are getting thousands of views nowadays.

There is a comment in this blog by someone named Sarah, "RSSB sewa money is largely from westners and through shell companies of Dhillon" - Ma'am can you please verify your sources ?
Please don't say that i used to this or that, if you have a valid and authenticated document proof than only raise your voice please. Otherwise don't talk as you are google and knows each and everything.

@Jen - really appreciate your last comment i.e. where you have mentioned about Brian's truth comment.
LET THE TRUTH PREVAIL.
Because there is no point in saying anything without any valid source or government verified or law enforcement verified proof or sharing links of planted or one sided articles.

@Dharma & One initiated - keep up the good work. Just don't use any harsh or wrong words😊. As the GOD & then your master is watching you. Let people say anything, you just keep patience and keep fighting.

P.S - I am not a follower of RSSB.
But after going through this sight, it forced me to check facts about RSSB and it's master, and i am unable to point out any valid document or any wrong doing by them (RSSB) or it's patron.

[Spence Tepper]

Hi Dharam
You wrote
"spence
press reports do not narrate truth. and till now even the press reports have not
said that RSSB Guru has done anything wrong."

Dharam, , you misunderstand. I don't wait for anyone else to tell me something is right or wrong. I see the facts and make a decision.

Using the gifts For gave me, sharpened through meditation on my own Master, Charan Singh

As for the truth is the press you can help here.

Gurindar sold an RSSB charitable hospital, and all its acreage, to himself, into his private equity company, RHC, run by his son.

https://www.cnbctv18.com/views/the-devotion-of-the-singh-brothers-of-fortis-runs-deep-into-their-businesses-63575.htm

Do you dispute this fact?
Can you offer other facts to back up your claim?

[dharam]

Spence
i rely on your statement that RSSB master sold some land to its own company. as per you,he sold it on behalf of RSSB,for some consideration amount that might have been received by RSSB society and sale deed registration fees to government. what is the problem in it . rather it is in interest of RSSB dera that it got money
for the land and might use it in other activities.
Sangat gives donations to society in the name of master and master has full authority to order the society to buy or sell anything that he feels fit.there is nothing wrong in it

[dharam]

Spence
Singh brothers are nephews of RSSB master and also his devotees. He starte guiding them after their father's demise.it is not known to public whether they acted upon his advice fully or partly or acted on their own. secondly,singh brothers have stated that he always advised them out of love and he is their father figure. so what is the problem to you or anybody. it is between father and sons.
so far some problems are reported,nobody has said that there was any role of RSSB master.
Since you are against the master,you are just susoecting like press reporters.

[dharam]

Splence
master advises us to meditate regularly and obey other principles of santmat.but many of us do not meditate and compromise with santmat princioles. but still ee are called RSSB followers or sewadars.
and master still loves all.
in the same way,persons close to master ask for worldly advices but they are free to follow or not.

[Jesse]

Dharam,

Go meditate and stop crying here.

[dharam]

Sarah
@your comments .
One thing all people keep in mind that all GSD business dealings are totally seprate from RSSB.
He may have some RSSB people known to run his business but dera management has confirmed that dera finances are operated by the society and it has nothing to do with his business.
naturally, he is the custodian of dera finances also,so he would keep only his reliable satsangis to count,deposit in bank,manage dera finances under his guidance only and naturally not invitevpeople to do that sewa who are not reliable to him or his society members.HE IS THE MASTEr OF DERA AND RSSB.

[Spence Tepper]

Hi Dharam
Thank you for your response.
It is a conflict of interest and unethical to use one's position in control of charitable funds to then sell those assets off into one's own private equity. At the price one chooses.

If this were anyone else you would see the ethical breach immediately.

I don't recall reading or hearing any teachings of any Sant Mat Master that claimed the Master could engage in violations of basic ethics, accountability and morality.

Quite the opposite. Masters obey the law and are models of the highest ethics. True Masters that is. Sant Sat Gurus.

If you have any familiarity with the what happened to the free charitable hospital in Mohali after the sale I would be most appreciative.

I world be curious to know if that Hospital is still open and providing free charitable services to the same number of patients as before, when Maharaji chartered the hospital as a place for anyone, of any stature, belief, or income, to receive services, and if poor to receive free services.

Your truthful answer will help me understand the situation more completely.

[Spence Tepper]

Dhuram
We should never, never compromise with the principles or our vows.

That applies to everyone in the Sangat, especially the Master.

Pure vegetarian diet.
No recreational drugs or alcohol.
Lead a clean moral life.
Minimum 2 1/2 hours every day meditation.

Clean moral life...
How simple, right?

Of course that applies to all of us.

But it is very sad to see when the Guru doesn't live by this standard.

It happens. We see false Gurus. And their living disciples get angry with the rest of the world, even violent because it is too much to accept they picked the wrong guy to trust their love to. That love seemed real, was real, but not perfect.

It happens. Not because the true Masters aren't perfect, but because we aren't perfect in recognizing them.

And so we choose the wrong guy.

But if that is too painful to admit, you see all the responses here.

I was where you are now Dharam.

Brian pulled me through it. Patiently.

And simply by asking me to focus on the actual facts.

And now I ask the same of you.

[Jesse]

"Your truthful answer will help me understand the situation more completely."

Good luck getting that from a highly emotional 3rd rate liar. Why even ask Dharam anything? He hasn't made a coherent post here yet. It's 100% cult propaganda of the worst kind.

[dharam]

Splence
i do not know about activities of hospital in mohali exactly but i was told by someone known to me that there are still some major free tratments and surgeries for needy people.
I will again emphasise thar people give donation to master .it is totally master's wish as to how to use that money for dera activities. his major purpose is to spread Santmat by way of satsangs and charity is his secondary activity. free food , accomodation ,parking and other facilities to visitors at satsangs is the main activity of RSSB.

[Arjuna]

@ Spencer - I saw Huzar Charan Ji as a child.

Question I think you are lucky to have been initiated by Him. What bodes for intiates of the current master (and no not all of us are brain washed or devoid of grey matter)? I take it we are pretty much doomed. I’m lying in a desert looking at the stars - thinking there has to be a way now

[Spence Tepper]

Hi Dharam
I would appreciate any hard information you can provide about the Mohali hospital's current charitable operations.

You wrote
"people give donation to master .it is totally master's wish as to how to use that money for dera activities."

Exactly! He had complete freedom, therefore his actions should reflect the highest ethics. That is to serve humanity first, not himself first. If he had all the power of creation, why spend so much time on land speculation? What need does he have that isn't filled?

Unless he isn't really a Sant Sat Guru.

His choices, his actions should be a role model for all of us as to how to conduct ourselves. Not to violate laws or ethics and claim some supernatural reason. Not to use charitable assets for private acquisition of more and more wealth

But instead to live fully within the constraints of our Karma with the highest ethics. Baba Ji teaches as much. But to really walk the talk is the mark of a true Master.

Sadly, if anyone in the United States had moved church property into their private assets at a sale to themselves and were found out they would be serving jail time, and for good reason.

The Perfect Master is here, in part, to teach us how to live through this life in the highest moral and ethical standards while conducting our meditation. That atmosphere of love can't be created with any lasting value on a platform of compromise and harm to innocent people. You can't stop charitable services and leverage that into growing one's own personal wealth and claim any credibility as the Good Shepherd Sent by God for the weak, the injured, the indigent, and the disabled.

But without saying more, please find out more about the Mohali Hospital and the state of care today for its indigent patients.

[dharam]

Jesse
i wrote this propoganda for blog admin who has been complaining through this blog that Master is so and so.he got initiation,preached for 15 years and then says,he was child for so many years.
even if you do not rely any more, you have no right to use abusive language .
how would u feel like if someone uses such language for you.

[Jesse]

Arjuna, there are so many religions and cults that are almost identical to RSSB. If you really want to do meditation, or even have a guru, they are a dime a dozen and you should be able to find another one.

The great thing about some of the guru cults is that some are far more personal and you can actually meditate in the room your guru is meditating in, and it's the guru's full time job to maintain an ashram or whatever.

If we're being honest, RSSB is really just a massive celebrity cult. Finding out that Gurinder is corrupt is like finding out that Demi Lovato had a drug overdose. It's so common that we could have bet on it and won. Gurus of groups the size of RSSB get caught in corruption schemes all the time.

[Spence Tepper]

Arjuna, the Lord is within you.
Stay true to your vows. Every moment of pure devotion within is to God.

How can we possibly know who God is?

Be sincere in your practice and devotion. If Baba Ji is your Master, He will be there for you.

If not, God is there, and your devotions simply bind Gurindar in chains.

[Jesse]

"you have no right to use abusive language .
how would u feel like if someone uses such language for you."

Dharam, you pig worshipping child, I do have the right to free speech. And in case you can't tell, I'm using more and more of my free speech every time one of you clowns tell me I can't.

If you want me to be nice, stop lying, stop pretending that you care about morals or ethics, and stop telling me I can't speak how I want. If you want to be taken seriously, say something serious instead of crying about baba ji.

You haven't even read the articles yet. You don't know how closely RSSB funds are tied to those of his family's companies. And you also have no idea what corruption is or why it's bad, being that you're from a place where corruption is just the norm, and obviously nobody in your family taught you how badly it was destroying your country.

It's funny, as Gurinder took over, it seems lower and lower quality people were attracted to RSSB. Will you attend the riots against the police in Beas if Gurinder is arrested, Dharam?

[Sumit]

@Spence.

I not only confirmed but checked and re-checked with one of my cousin residing in Mohali, Punjab, that GSD purchased that land (in Mohali from RSSB) as per market or circle rate going on in that area at that time. I am still unable to figure out the problem or any wrong doing in it. :(

Below is the another link of a disputed case against RSSB and after going through all the facts & proofs; court gave it's verdict in favour of RSSB.

https://indiankanoon.org/doc/87320658/

Now, if you say that this is wrong as well and RSSB forcefully won this case. Then best i would say is that our judges in India are not literate enough to go through all the proofs in a correct manner like you could do :) .

So the score is Dharam (2) and Jesse - Spence (Zero 0).

P.S - I am not a follower of RSSB but i am being fair here, talking on facts and well documented proofs.

[Jesse]

"Then best i would say is that our judges in India are not literate enough to go through all the proofs in a correct manner like you could do :)"

You do literally have some of the worst judges on earth, you know that right? They are bribed constantly. India doesn't really have a functional justice system at all, so yeah, it's very possible that the judge was a complete moron.

And the point about selling something FROM YOUR CHARITY TO YOUR PRIVATE BUSINESS is an ethics issue. Anyone that isn't extremely corrupt knows how shady that is, but in India, nothing is shady except honesty. Honesty has no place there. Honest people die in poverty in India.

[Sarah]

@Arjuna
LOL... OK, I’ll start going back to gym. I need to take some kickboxing classes in case I have the misfortune of running into GSD again.

@Dharham
I know GSD on a personal level. I know exactly who he is. You have no idea. I follow this blog to keep grounded so that I can (most of the time) look at the situation more logically and less emotionally. There is A LOT about my interactions with GSD that I will never share on this blog. This is a very personal “cause” for me. But I also know that there is enough unethical and shady/criminal activity on his part to take him down. The truth will eventually come out about that so there will never be a need for me or people who have been in the same situation as me to have to relive our experiences by sharing them. He is the exact opposite of a saint. You can’t even imagine the things he has gotten away with...

But let’s focus on the news and his stupidity. That will be enough.

[Spence Tepper]

Hi Sumit
Thank you for this legal link.
Have you read it?

"GBPL had entered into a Memorandum of Understanding (hereafter 'MoU') dated 22.05.2014 with Fortis Hospitals Limited (hereafter 'Fortis'), which is stated to be the assignee of RSSB."

If you look closely this is a challenge from a construction company against RSSB and Fortis Healthcare, for arbitration, which the court denied, claiming that there is no arbitration clause in their contracts.

But in the middle you have the transfer of a free hospital into a specialty for profit heart hospital. RSSB charitable property assigned to Fortis for profit.

This legal document shows the transfer of charitable property used to raze the old charitable hospital and construct a new Fortis hospital in its place. Those 300 acres are now the new Fortis Specialty hospital (for profit).

So now I know the free hospital was demolished.

I think you have actually proven my point and provided several more nails in the case that Gurindar moved a charitable hospital into his own profit making.

Nowhere in this document is there a challenge regarding the price of the sale by Gurindar to Gurindar.

Please indicate the paragraph if I I've missed it.

[Jesse]

"The truth will eventually come out about that "

Sarah, I'm hoping that he's done some kind of crime in a country with a functioning court system. In India it's extremely easy for the rich to commit crimes. You can drive a car over people and kill them on the streets if you're in Bollywood movies, as you know, and these Gurus have as much or more sway than actors.

As we saw with the FDA battle, things that were easy to get away with in India were actually prosecuted successfully in USA. Financial crimes are the same. If he's done anything shady in regards to the Hawaii or Chicago centers, it could land him in jail. Which would be cool.

[Sumit]

@Jesse - Your comment is totally absurd, reason being, now you are raising fingers on India and it's judges. So for this i can only bow down my head in front of you with folded hands & say sorry. I like to be logical and don't want to spit only hate without any government verified proof. :)

Because now we can take this on an entirely different level by commenting on topic USA judges vs India judges or corruption in India vs corruption in USA.

@Spence - Thanks for your kind response and below are your answers :-

1) Have you read it ?
Yes i did, that's why i shared it. It's a common sense. Why would i debate on something without any proof :)

2) Answer for your arbitration thing :-
My dear brother, just look at the verdict again, point number 18 says " "An arbitration clause in an agreement cannot survive if the agreement containing arbitration clause has been superseded/novated by a later agreement" ". Don't know why you have not pointed this out :(

3) Coming to you point that -> GSD sold a charitable hospital to his own company and to highlight it you also wrote profit in brackets, this made laugh :)

Do you have anything that can prove that he sold it for profit only.

Justified reason - there are chances that he might have used that money for the patients in other RSSB hospitals or in some other disaster relief activity.

If you would have said this, then this would have been a fair answer from every angle. But the way in which you have replied, it only shows the single phase of the coin and not the other one.

Above all, i can only control & will restrict myself to share any other link in favour or against RSSB (you can use anything if you want :) ) Because the way in which you have replied (by mentioning only half part of the story), creates an impression that if i will share any other links then you can use it as a weapon to post more blogs or comments without telling anyone about the complete story.

[Spence Tepper]

Hi Sumit

Your article is eye opening

https://indiankanoon.org/doc/87320658/

This new hospital was commissioned by RSSB in 2010 to be a brand new RSSB charitable hospital to replace the old.

Once construction began, everything was delayed until 2012 after RSSB transferred the hospital and grounds to Fortis.

Please read paragraph 3.2 where the construction company states that in 2012 RSSB transfered the property to Fortis in a 'Clandestine manner'.

Starting the new hospital as an RSSB jnon - profit replacement for the old, then doing a bait and switch to a for-profit specialty hospital would require substantial public legal review in the U. S. because it is an abuse of non - profit charitable status in the service of for profit interests. In the United States it would be illegal for a member of the non - charity to have any vested interest in the for-profit firm.

The amount that had been unpaid to the construction company was adjudicated by the Court and agreed upon, thereby all the other law suits the construction company had made against RSSB were dropped in lieu of Fortis' paying the agreed final bill.

The ethical breach by RSSB, under Gurindar 's direction, passing assets to his own for profit entity, Fortis, and tearing down the charitable hospital built by Maharaji, and thereby destroying that charitable mission, is now proven without dispute in this document.

[Sumit]

@Spence-

Sir can you also point out that point in which builder said that document was signed under duress and court denied it. :)

I am loving this debate now,

[Jesse]

"Your comment is totally absurd, reason being, now you are raising fingers on India and it's judges. "

Sumit, India is one of the most corrupt countries on the planet. Every Indian knows this, complains about it, and many protest the extreme corruption regularly across the country. It's written about non-stop in your media as well.

Furthermore, Companies associated with Gurinder Dhillon faced the courts and lost totally in the USA, while their same crimes weren't even scrutinized in India. So to pretend like the standards of law and order, which proceed from the decisions of judges, is irrelevant makes no sense.

There is nothing remotely absurd about my statement at all.

https://www.transparency.org/country

[Jesse]

"Do you have anything that can prove that he sold it for profit only.

Justified reason - there are chances that he might have used that money for the patients in other RSSB hospitals or in some other disaster relief activity."

Have you been using mind altering drugs, Sumit?

Why would you sell a charity hospital that you don't own to a corporation that you do own...... so that you can do charity?

You're grasping at straws, man. This is pathetic.

[Spence Tepper]

Hi Sumit

You wrote
"GSD sold a charitable hospital to his own company and to highlight it you also wrote profit in brackets, this made laugh :)

Do you have anything that can prove that he sold it for profit only."

Yes the sale to RHC, one of Gurindar's private for profit holding companies, run by one of his sons.

Here is the link

https://www.cnbctv18.com/views/the-devotion-of-the-singh-brothers-of-fortis-runs-deep-into-their-businesses-63575.htm

The legal document you provided indicates this was transferred to the for-profit hospital chain Fortis, also run by the Dhillon / Singhs.

[Spence Tepper]

Sumit

I realize now that you may not understand the difference between a for-profit business and a non - profit charity. Both have significant legal restrictions on the U. S. based on simple ethics to prevent conflict of interest. In India the term is "Interested Persons" or "Person of interest".

When Gurindar chose to sell the RSSB non-profit charitable hospital to himself (RHC, his own for - profit equity holding company) he ran the risk of being a person of interest. Taking charitable assets meant for the poor and converting them into assets leveraged for his own profit.

Normally that would be illegal. RSSB could sell the hospital to a for - profit chain, but no one connected to RSSB could be connected financially to that business. Because they would be influenced by the profit motive in a way that would compete with the charitable mission of the non - profit.

These may be new concepts to you, but you may most certainly Google these terms to get a better understanding.

Short course, the properties that were set out to serve the poor are no longer doing so.

RSSB was paid a fixed amount, basically for the land. The amount does not even approach the annual profit of that size heart hospital.

The $50M RSSB received from Gurindar is not enough to buy new land and build another hospital.

So he leaves RSSB in poorer shape as a charity than they were before. But the 200 acres gained had been converted into an annual source of profit for him personally.

[Spence Tepper]

Hi Arjuna
You wrote
"@ Spencer - I saw Huzar Charan Ji as a child.

Question I think you are lucky to have been initiated by Him. What bodes for intiates of the current master (and no not all of us are brain washed or devoid of grey matter)? I take it we are pretty much doomed. I’m lying in a desert looking at the stars - thinking there has to be a way now"

The Lord is inside you, Arjuna. A true Master will only point you there.

Whatever devotion you give to God, the ultimate Love, who watches over you, whether in devotion to Maharaji, Gurindar, Sawan, Jesus, the Prophet, Yaweh, Wisdom, or Truth itself, or Love itself, that is all going to the same place. And that love for You which you may experience as love for the creator, comes from no where else but inside you.

Just look at you! Indignant with lies, sincere and humble in your desire for true love and peace. See the greatness in your own heart!

Be still, when you look at the stars, and Know He is looking kindly at you. A warrior whose heart is right.

Every round of Simran is a love poem whispered to the Divine.

And if you are wrong in devotion to Gurindar, it hardly matters to God. From His/Her level, it is the same pure love and devotion, and entirely transferable.

Whatever love you devote to Gurindar, that love binds Maharaji tighter and tighter to you. For He is responsible for everything Gurindar does.

You have nothing to fear. That love is in you, peace is there.

You already know this.

[Jesse]

Arjuna, I don't remember under which post we'd mentioned free speech diminishing in UK, so I'm gonna post a scary link here from a police station in South Yorkshire, wherever that is, who asks the public to report mean tweets to the police.

Free speech is tangentially related to these posts in a way since everyone is asking Brian to take everything he says about Gurinder down because it hurts their sensitive feels.

https://twitter.com/syptweet/status/1038891067381350401

"please report non-crime hate incidents, which can include things like offensive or insulting comments, online, in person or in writing. Hate will not be tolerated in South Yorkshire."

They're saying if someone has an opinion that hurts your feelings, you should call the police. This is the polar opposite of a healthy free speech environment. I'd be in a UK jail for saying the things I say online, and I'm tame compared to people I follow on other sites.

[dharam]

Jesse
@Dharam,you and me are not intellictially equal------
you write emotions are not real.you have real emotions for your children,soouse,parents-------
Santmat is based on love and devotion. whole purpose of meditation is to create love and devotion. the real love,the real emotion for a person whom you see only on stage ,whom you listen through discourse or question answers-for Maharaj ji or Baba Ji whomever but ultimately you have to create real love and devotion more than you have for your children and other family members.only that can connect you to the shabad .otherwise go on cryiing to the people or on the blog.it will lead you to the worse

[Marko]

Sarah are you Gill? If you are please contact me again.

[dharam]

santmat is beyond intellect.God is beyond intellect. if you cannot keep intellect aside,no use to discuss Santmat or God. better discss Trump or Clinton and be a political leader.

[Sarah]

@Jesse
😂You always make me laugh. Thank you.

Ummm... yeah, you’re right. It will be difficult but not impossible. Maybe best case scenario would be he gets some sort of “house arrest” where he’s never able to leave Beas again... He wouldn’t be too happy if that happened. However, it’s annoying that Singapore and India do not have an extradition treaty.

[Bombay Blonde]

@ Dharam : You may not know, but real Sant Mat is against feudal and oppressive practices. RSSB uses the poor as unpaid labour the name of " Seva " and these workers have no access to their Guru. Is that fair ?

Have you mixed melted tar and gravel for a Dera road in forty five degrees heat on a June afternoon while the heat from the road roller burns down your back ? Unlikely.

[dharam]

Bombay Blonde
you are mistaken. guys who do tar and gravel mixing sewa for road work are not poor and most of them are from well to do family. they do this type of sews out of love for their master by taking vaccations from their business/job.and they feel happiest and blessed with special glimpse and parshad gifted by the master in exchange of that. there may be millionaires among them.

[dharam]

777
great experience.it is just due to your true love and devotion and due to purity of your soul. so in santmat everybidy is dufferent. some get inner exoerience on the initiation day wheras others get no experience after years of meditation. it is a matter of karmas and methodology.and metholod is just repetition if every name with love and devotion and cimplete surrender i.e being ego less i.e zero ego.
witg warrn regards

[dharam]

777
great experience. in santmat many persons get experiences just on first glimpse of master or at the time of initiation or after few sessions of meditation whereas others have to struggle hard for whole life. it is due to purity of soul and layers of karmas. but that light and sound exist in everybody.methodology counts a lot and that method is love and devotion.
warm regards

[Bombay Blonde]

@ Dharam : You are overstuffed with RSSB PR, chatting with you will be an exercise in futility. However, as a last attempt at clarification, may I point out that this particular Seva, that of constructing roads, is undertaken by the Rajasthani seva groups who come in specially from Rajasthan to the Dera in the summer months to lay and re-lay the roads. The hotter the conditions, the better the paving and surfacing. No other community can tolerate the heat wave of the Punjab which averages forty four degrees. Please call the Dera management and tell them to provide you with a list of all the village sangats that come in at different times of the year for pre-assigned tasks. They are given work schedules, timings and deadlines. This is not some volunteer work that they casually join into at their own leisure and discretion. This is a whole day of supervised physical work with no pay and no minimum stipend. This would be considered " oppressive exploitation of captive labour " in most developed countries.

But Dharam, you aren't capable of understanding any of this because you believe that unpaid work and spiritual love are somewhat related. It pains me to read the comments of regressive Indians like you who are still suffering from a colonial hangover. It reflects in your sheer inability to understand the basic principles of modern society.

I was lucky to observe and speak with these naive people who were just in it for the love of their Guru.
The millionaires you speak of hang out with Gurinder in London during the summer.

[dharam]

Bombay Blonde
i personally know persons ftom delhi who do this tar sewa and other rigorous sewa from well off family.i know many villagers who are farmers and landlords from haryana state who do this kind of hard sewa. there is a mixed society in india .their standard of living may be poor but they are well off to run their family and spare time for sewa of their own wish and they would never come to beas for paid job.
no doubt ,paid labour is available in india through contractors who exploit the labour. so dera prefers volunteers. sewa is an integral part of dera.people feel dera as their home and are proud to maintain dera. they are proud when they go to and come back from dera.
my polite question:did anybody compel you to do such sewa?

[dharam]

i do not know about usa or london . but in india 80% population is from villages. they do their home chores and kettle breeding, farming or other service jobs with their hard work. they are used to do such hard work and consoder it hard sewa an adventure and relaxation from their day to day problems as well as like pilgrimage.-------------.

[Bombay Blonde]

@ Dharam : The answer to your question is, NO. But that doesn't mean that something I haven't experienced first hand is right. While the sentiment behind Seva is something that you and I would agree on, I think we disagree on everything else. No point discussing. I'm a progressive liberal who has zero tolerance for feudal practices. You are an RSSB apologist who thinks that free work is a relaxing pilgrimage. We differ. Big time.

You say : " paid labour is available in india through contractors who exploit the labour so dera prefers volunteers "

No, Dharam. Not all contractors are exploiting their labour. You can't generalise a whole sector. Don't be so dumb. I have friends who run big construction companies and who have adopted benchmark practices that are attracting international partners. Dera just wants volunteers so it doesn't need to pay a rupee for anything.

I really wish people like you wake up.

[Dungeness]

The legality of all this is up to the courts. The attribution of blame is up to the courts.

But the ethics of nepotism involved, of siphoning and embezzlement, of illegal leveraged loans on top of leveraged loans, and the business entity whose name is the center of all of this is well supported: Gurinder Singh Dhillon.

Thanks Spence, I agree, no one should abdicate dignity or
intelligence. The drumbeat is loud and the evidence of
shadiness is overwhelming. Credit is due to all those
who have doggedly reported what's been happening.

On the other hand, any assessment without full knowledge
will always be suspect. Without it, we see through "a glass
darkly". It's important for the drama to unfold, to hear
Gurinder's statement, a court to render a verdict, and to
keep faith in what's experienced inside rather than the
chaos and noise outside.

[Dungeness]

The legality of all this is up to the courts. The attribution of blame is up to the courts.

But the ethics of nepotism involved, of siphoning and embezzlement, of illegal leveraged loans on top of leveraged loans, and the business entity whose name is the center of all of this is well supported: Gurinder Singh Dhillon.

Thanks Spence, I agree, no one should abdicate dignity or
intelligence. The drumbeat is loud and the evidence of
shadiness is overwhelming. Credit is due to all those
who have doggedly reported what's been happening.

On the other hand, any assessment without full knowledge
will always be suspect. Without it, we see through "a glass
darkly". It's important for the drama to unfold, to hear
Gurinder's statement, a court to render a verdict, and to
keep faith in what's experienced inside rather than the
chaos and noise outside.

[dharam]

Bombay Blonde
people of sangat are membets of dera and they happily do the hardest work themselves. then why do you want that dera should engage labour and spend money ?
however,if sangat is not available for technical jobs,dera alsa employs contractors and workers

[Bombay Blonde]

@ Dharam : I feel for the impoverished multitudes across all sects, cults and religious organisations. India needs major education reforms, not Gurus. It's a larger debate that you cannot comprehend.
Enjoy your Seva. I wish you bliss.

[dharam]

saints are not social reformers or political reformers.God has sent them to put the seekers on path to self realisation and God realisation .So debate on poverty and education are not the subject matter of RSSB.
but again ,i would like to mention that there are large numbers of highly and moderated educated sangat and sewadars frim well to do background and they perform the hardest and smallest sewa at dera on their visits or pre assigned duties willingly.

[Spence Tepper]

Hi Dungeness:

You wrote:
"On the other hand, any assessment without full knowledge
will always be suspect. Without it, we see through "a glass
darkly". It's important for the drama to unfold, to hear
Gurinder's statement, a court to render a verdict, and to
keep faith in what's experienced inside rather than the
chaos and noise outside."

Yes, I agree in the main.
What I don't advocate is superstition and faith in the face of alternative and uncomfortable facts.

Reality is. And we should accept it as it is.
Whatever our belief system, ideally, it would encompass reality.

Now, regarding the destruction of what once was the Charitable Hospital, and the use of those lands to build a for-profit hospital in part owned by Baba Ji, that's a matter of fact. That's a court record and a journalists' expose, and no one has yet offered any refutation.

On that basis, Baba Ji violated principles of ethics regarding serious conflict of interest to the detriment of the free hospital charity, and the benefit of the for-profit hospital chain he is part owner of. Along that route is the role of his sons and serious nepotism.

These are ethical violations, regardless of what the law says. They violate our vow to live a clean moral life.

Hard fact is already there.

There is an inner reality and an outer one. And we don't know the whole story.

Simply saying "I don't know" is a far greater achievement than saying "It can't be. He's perfect. There must be some explanation..."

But to also say, when the facts are documented and plain: "this is wrong, regardless of who does it." That requires character.

"This is wrong, even if it means I was wrong in devoting myself to this individual" That's very tough. And it requires character. We should be sure of the facts, but regarding the destruction of the charitable hospital and the sale of that land to his private holding, under Baba Ji's own direction, from the two sources above, it's fact.

[Spence Tepper]

Hi Dungeness:

I was actually surprised to read the court document Sumit sent, which confirmed the charitable hospital had been destroyed. It was shocking to read that the new hospital was originally to be an RSSB charitable hospital, but along the way RSSB assigned it to the For-Profit chain owned in part by Baba Ji, Fortis. These were facts I didn't know until Sumit offered that court document. It just nails it. Nepotism, conflict of interest, personal profit over charity. That's wrong. I'm interested to hear Baba Ji's explanation, but it's wrong. If it were anyone else, it would be wrong.

[Spence Tepper]

Hi Dharam:
"The main purpose of the Saints coming into this world is to teach spirituality and how to live a life of love and devotion." Majaraji (Spiritual Discourses V3). It is NOT to destroy the charitable hospital and grow a personal financial empire using RSSB assets.

[Bombay Blonde]

@ Spence : Thank you for that reminder, sending love and happiness your way ... :)

[dharam]

Spence Tepper
yiou are totally mistaken by rumours and false press reports.
Master did not use RSSB assets at all to grow his financial empire. you are totally mistaken.
dera land was sold to fortis for a price
which went to RSSB and not to Baba Ji
if you are initiate of Maharaj Ji and lstill love him, you must respect his will that
sangat should give more love to his successor than the unparallel love given to him.
but instead of loving him,you are making unnecessary issue of some false and incomplete reports of press and his critics.
good luck and good bye

[Spence Tepper]

Thank you Bombay
To be perfectly honest, I still believe Baba Ji is a perfect Saint. But the facts are the facts.
Why would a Saint behave like Gorden Gekko? Why would a Saint make his life the role model of avarice?
I wasn't angry before. But day by day I'm getting upset. And the more facts that come to light, like the legal document Sumit, unknowingly, shared, the more concerned and angry I'm getting.

Two weeks ago I would have told Dharam "Right on! Yes! Baba Ji is perfect!"
Today it's "Bombay! Right On! Thanks for keeping the message up with Brian...thanks for raising questions so the rest of us were ready to see it when the facts came rolling in...!!"

And they are rolling in.

[Jesse]

Spencer, where did you even get the concept of a "perfect saint"? Isn't it a bit convenient that the idea itself originates from someone calling themself one?

[Spence Tepper]

Hi Jesse!

To love someone without any question, to see them as perfect is a very healthy thing. It helps in devotion and focus. And to submit to their direction and judgement is an assurance against ego and poor judgement.

There are many tremendous psychological benefits to have someone greater than ourselves to love.

The problem is that there are fakes. And such devotion gives them power to work mischief.

And so we are forced to think for ourselves. It's lonely. Yet I maintain a higher force than my feeble understanding is there, and if I appeal to Him/Her with full devotion, I will gain insight. That's generally been my experience.

Indeed, it is Maharaji within who keeps telling me in the depths of my meditation, with a smile in His brilliant visage, "Yes. Proceed."

So, I'm proceeding, as you can see above.

[Jesse]

Spencer, I too think loving something bigger than ourselves is great, but as I get older I find that it's better to apply that love to the mystery of the universe, call it god if you want, rather than men.
The sufi writings, not as used by RSSB, often maintain this sense of awe and wonder that stems precisely from not knowing. The Hindu traditions have always seemed arrogant to me in their insistence on reducing god to the knowable and as of late cutting corners on that tradition to simply arrive at "worship this pretty average dude so you can know everything in the universe."
Omniscience is mentioned in rssb literature, which will make it really funny if the debacle we're seeing now takes a turn like that in the story of Bapu or Ram Rahim.

Something I was reading recently mentioned "the guru principle" which i liked. Basically the author was explaining that we're just using the guru as something to focus on. RSSB kinda says this, but more often they make the case that the man is actually a human god. If your successes in meditating are due to the principle of guru focus, that's great. If the actual character of the guru or truth of his god claims have any bearing on the success, what happens if the corruption extends back into Charans days?

[Arjuna]

@ Jesse and Spencer- heavy day and I need to rest tonight ! As much as I can in hell! Will respond when my head is less tired and clear. Thank you both for your response above.

Laters dudes

[Spence Tepper]

Hi Jesse
You asked
". If the actual character of the guru or truth of his god claims have any bearing on the success, what happens if the corruption extends back into Charans days?"

No problemo. The Charan within is the only one that matters. I can safely disregard the other. And do can any Satsangi.

[tucson]

Spence wrote: "To love someone without any question, to see them as perfect is a very healthy thing. It helps in devotion and focus. "

--Nobody is perfect, so if you do that you are setting yourself up for disappointment as is the case with the current Gurinder debacle. Right?

"And to submit to their direction and judgement is an assurance against ego and poor judgement."

-- It may be poor judgement to submit submit to their direction and judgement.

Hey, I know what you mean though. It's good to have people you can love, look up to and respect. Just be wary of putting them on too high a pedestal.

[Jesse]

Spencer, the only reason anyone would look for an old punjabi guy "within" is because someone on the outside said it was a good idea. This all brings me back to the auto suggestion thing. Had these guys not published books and told the world that they were god, what would they be?

[Spence Tepper]

Jesse
Bitter pills, Jesse. The truth is bitter today.

[Jesse]

I'm just asking the question, Spencer. I've learned that you're sincere so I am accepting your experience as valid.
Maybe god uses men, or becomes men. Maybe god gives us the power you use men and religion regardless of if it's true.
If you have powerful inner experiences that add to the meaning of life, then why question them? I've said it before, were my experiences more meaningful, I'd do the meditation no matter what. And that includes financial charades of godmen.

[Meditator]

Gone thru a long commentary, woven by a few international satsangis who do feel something or much fishy or not in sync with the philosophy preached by the Gurus of this sect and by & large by the Great Masters as Jesus, Kabir et al who had hardly a few bucks each day for their survival and who were far away from luxuries and even may not have enough to have some basic comforts. As a matter of fact each of us whosoever as a satsangi may not have first hand experience physically at personal levels with the Masters for a considerable periods. therefore a confusion prevails over what you say and what has been taught during satsangs and we believe and try to act upon them honestly and sincerely expecting similar case with the higher ups in the sect. your versions demand some clarity from a responsible person who has been in touch with all these even though I for the moment do not buy your versions not out of fear but due to the fact that their philosophy is not based on some physical science but a trusted philosophy replete with spiritual experiences of many among us who were there and will be there.( Of course I am not in know of one who claim to have reached HIM- BABA Ji inside)

[Spence Tepper]

Hi Jesse
I saw Gurindar in a dream when I was in high school, in the 70's about five years before I was initiated by Maharaji and nearly twenty years before I saw him in Kitchener, Ontario for the first time.

We were above the earth, and he was leaving and wished me well. He placed his hand on my shoulder.

So I recognized him immediately in Ontario.

I don't know if you can understand the incredible pain this memory brings back, in light of these recent events.

The inner experience heightens the pain, not lessens it.

[Jesse]

Interesting. The skeptic in me makes the connection between the first big post colonial wave of sardars going to Canada and wonders if you just saw a random sikh in your dream after seeing some in real life.

Since the turban and beard combo reduces distinct features so greatly that it enabled Sikh terrorists in Canada to evade intelligence agencies and punishment , it could easily fool an individual's mind.

Obviously I don't know and can't prove that or assume what I'm saying is true, but that's what initially popped up in my head.

[Spence Tepper]

Hi Jesse!
Very difficult to interpret anyone else's experience. I don't think we can do it rightly, nor accept it as literal. You can only accept it as my very real subjective experience. That much we can all do.

What does it mean even if I did see Him?
He wasn't wearing a turban in my dream.
But the same sardonic expression.
These miracles, what do they mean?
My son drew a crayon picture of Baba Ji standing behind me while I was cooking, smiling almost sarcastically. As if he and my son were sharing a private joke, and that joke was me.
I asked who that was and where he saw him.
My son said "he was standing over your shoulder, your Master".

My son was six at the time and didn't know my Master was actually Maharaji. He had never seen Baba Ji.

We can experience things we don't understand. But even understanding them, really doesn't change a thing.

If Baba Ji insists on this kind of self-destruction, it's his privilege. But we can't pretend it is anything else. It is our duty to call right and wrong as we see it, and as it is.

And it's heart breaking.

[Arjuna]

@ spencer - you are highly advanced Sir! I salute you as I read your last post!

You know it.

I saw Gurinder sitting on the stage in 1989 - he was morphing from Sardar Bahadar ji. I told my auntie and she said why are you wishing this! I wrote it down in my diary and am looking at the diary page on my iPhone photo as it is locked away in a bank deposit box in London along with some other written experiences! I have a bad feeling about about all of this! You are right no one can validate any ones experiences

[Spence Tepper]

Hi Dharam
You wrote
"yiou are totally mistaken by rumours and false press reports.
Master did not use RSSB assets at all to grow his financial empire. you are totally mistaken.
dera land was sold to fortis for a price
which went to RSSB and not to Baba Ji"

Actually the press reports are the truth, Dharam. The non-profit charitable RSSB hospital in question is the Master's to do with as He wishes.

He chose to destroy it and sell the land to himself at a price he agreed to.. With Himself!

https://www.cnbctv18.com/views/the-devotion-of-the-singh-brothers-of-fortis-runs-deep-into-their-businesses-63575.htm

And here...

https://indiankanoon.org/doc/87320658/

Legally, RSSB can sell their properties to a for-profit health system, but no one connected to RSSB is allowed to have any connection with RHC or Fortis Healthcare.

Apparently you do not understand the concept of conflict of interest. That is actually a form of corruption.

You wrote

"if you are initiate of Maharaj Ji and lstill love him, you must respect his will that
sangat should give more love to his successor than the unparallel love given to him."

Dharma, one day you may that I am doing exactly this.

But sometimes that love needs to be tough love.

[tucson]

Spence (or anyone who thinks they know what is going on),

I am curious about the effect of these revelations on the sangat at large. Is the mood generally one of denial, or is there there acceptance, as you have done, that Gurinder appears to be a crook of some degree/kind or another. I would imagine that this hasn't sunk in yet on the faithful and that most believe all this is part of some test or divine plan of GSD. Or, are many satsangis feeling the shock and loss as you are? Perhaps many are waiting for more proof? Is there a mass exodus from the Dera and satsang centers around the globe like mice leaving a sinking ship? I would think not yet. It's still early.

Anyway, my sympathies to you. Had this happened during the Charan Singh years it would have hit me pretty hard, I imagine. As it is, I am long removed from RSSB and am just a curious but dispassionate onlooker via this blog primarily.