Another story about the Singh brothers, RSSB, and the Dhillon family

Going through some fairly old email messages, I came across an July 23, 2018 ET Prime story that someone sent to me, "How the Singh brothers became victims of a realty play."


It takes a subscription to read the full story, so my correspondent sent a file that I converted to PDF. Here it is:
Download Singh brothers story

Like other stories about the Singh brothers and their relationship with the guru of Radha Soami Satsang Beas, Gurinder Singh Dhillon, the details are astoundingly complex. 

Here's some easy to understand excerpts from the beginning of the story.

ET Prime pieced together this triangular love-hate story between the Godhwanis, Singh brothers, and Dhillons by speaking with several insiders, going through public disclosures, and poring over numerous corporate filings. 



It is a story of a win-win association turning into a nightmare, an unending downward spiral.

...The transactions and movement of money and the multiple roles played by the individuals involved raise questions of corporate governance and conflict of interest. They show how Indian promoters continue to consider listed companies their private fiefdoms. 


They also make one wonder about the Radha Soami sect's principles, including that the master "does not accept gifts or money for himself or his family from the sangat; all the money donated in seva is channelled into supporting the sangat".

I'll repeat what I said in a blog post about a Business Today story about this same subject -- the tangled web of highly suspicious financial deals involving the RSSB guru, his family, and RSSB insiders.

If you read the Bloomberg and Business Today stories, you'll learn that whatever we might call the financial schemes the guru is deeply involved with, it's very difficult to call them honest living.  
Download Honest Living

Here's an excerpt from that RSSB book.

Comments

[Jesse]

"Dhillon's holdings, which were pledged to raise finances for the money-guzzling realty business, have been taken over by lenders."

Losing everything you have to debt collectors is just logical planning for doomsday according to some commenters here.

"The aviation business has its own connection to the dera. According to an Airport Authority of India
document, while RSSB was the owner of the dera’s airport, Ligare Aviation is named the operator"

Another for profit business directly linked to the dera. A business that failed too lol. More paradoxical doomsday prep? The more you lose money and resources, the more prepared you are for the last days?

"He gives advice to all those who seek it, but does not get involved in their day-to-day lives because he believes that life is all about making choices; and each one has to
make his own choice. As Master, he can advise, but he cannot make a choice for anyone, because one
is bound by the choices one makes"

So then he lost control of the dera and let someone else made the choice to make deals between his family's companies and his own ashram? Gurinder is just so chill and uninvolved that he sits in board meetings and owns crap tons of shares, but out of respect for their karma he lets everyone else run roughshod over his businesses and even his own religion, too. Sorry. I do not buy it.

"There is no fallout with Dhillon family"

Skip ahead to 2018 and now the brothers are fighting. YES!!! I love this soap opera. It's gonna be even better if GSD goes the route of MSG and makes funny movies before things unravel. Maybe he could do one called GSD Gazelle of Dalal Street.

[Bombay Blonde]

Reminds me of an old Satsang shabad.

" Mera SatGur Yaar Gariba Da, Ki Lena Vadehya Ban Ke ... "

" My pure Master is the friend of the poor, what's the point in being rich ... "

Oh well, am I missing something ?

[Jesse]

"am I missing something?"

Maybe the only thing you missed was the opportunity to leverage your knowledge of RSSB's insider business deals. Could have made out like a bandit.

[AJ]

@Brian

Did you delete the following page -
http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:http://hinessight.blogs.com/church_of_the_churchless/2018/09/will-gurinder-singh-quit-as-rssb-guru-and-appoint-a-female-successor.html">http://hinessight.blogs.com/church_of_the_churchless/2018/09/will-gurinder-singh-quit-as-rssb-guru-and-appoint-a-female-successor.html">http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:http://hinessight.blogs.com/church_of_the_churchless/2018/09/will-gurinder-singh-quit-as-rssb-guru-and-appoint-a-female-successor.html

or did GSD's magic caused the page to disappear? This was the page with the Master Pig reference.

@Jen
Did you respond to my post about your email?
I can't see it anymore because the page is gone

[Brian Hines]

AJ, yes, I deleted that post at the request of the person who shared the information.

[Bombay Blonde]

@ AJ : Do you have any books or references on the Jagat Singh and Kirpal Singh stories. Academic interest, do share some if you do. I've read David Lane's and some other chronicles from Jalandhar and Amritsar. There are also some Lahori Sikhs who have some folklore. Rajinder's group seems to have fretted, a huge shift to Ishwar's group. All factions of Surat Shabd. Also, would you know about the Shiromani Gurdwara Parbandhak Committee and their alliance with Amarinder. I'm not certain they're in with him, handed down information, still ! I heard that the Badal's were neck deep in with the SGPC, and Amarinder has never had a good relationship with them. Here's what I found online, in a post about the Eck lineage ...

" Evidently, there is controversy in most ' lines ' of Masters. However, does it really matter most who follows who ? Or is it more important to look at the teachings of any particular Master and follow the one who suits you best ? You know, one could look for the actual history of the Eck line of Masters and become most disappointed from a lack of physical records. What I mean to say is that history and myth are blended together to such an extent that one can become lost trying to sort it all out. This is why I question what is most important, the messenger or the message - and what that amounts to for any particular person. "

[One Initiated]

So Brian,

Can you name the person who has requested to delete that ?
And can you please also mention the reasons behind this request ?

OR can that person come forward and explain why that post had to be requested for deletion?

And obviously you can not delete everything can you?
Do you think that page can no longer be accessible now ?

[Bombay Blonde]

@ Spence : Someday, I’d love to discuss Charan’s era with you. I’ve thoroughly enjoyed reading about your Sant Mat journey and it reaffirms my faith in a greater path that is above and beyond all spiritual practice ... it is the path of fundamental life essentials – values that have a whole bag of little red flags on standby, ready to be pinned on even the most tightly held beliefs.

[Bombay Blonde]

@ One Initiated : I respect you ( and I’ve said this here before ) for sticking around through all the free speech that some of us here enjoy. (( Yay, it’s an American blog ! )) I’m sure you find peace in your beliefs like I find freedom in my unconditioning. ( Sending you a virtual apology, it will load when you're less upset. )

[Spence Tepper]

Hi Bombay
For me Spirituality is a source of objectivity. It dispels emotion and superstition, corruption and greed.

That pure joy changes our values. And the insights are amazing.

When we see an official teacher of this same wisdom putting family members in charge of private corporations he is part owner of, using RSSB assets, at least in the case of the charitable hospital, for personal financial gain, taking illegal loans for land speculation, it raises all sorts of good questions.

It's a terrible waste of time for a guru.

And it distracts from the pure atmosphere of love necessary for spiritual progress.

How can this happen?
It is beyond question at this point. The evidence is there in plentiful supply.

It happened because, as wise and clever as he is, this is not a Sant Sat Guru.

Pick a guru you can believe in without excuses or drama.

Pick a truth that stands on its own.

[Tence Stepper]

Of course he is not satguru. But your new guru IS Preacher Brian and his Pastor Jesse. I wish you well on a way back from hell when you will find out how Pastor Jesse dried you out emotionally.
Jesse shush!

[Jesse]

Unfunny master of everything and smartest man on earth tries hard to troll. Fails miserably.

The story of Manjit "self important" Chawla

[Bombay Blonde]

" Pick a guru you can believe in without excuses or drama. "
" Pick a truth that stands on its own. "

Indeed Spence, thank you.

[One Initiated]

Blonde,

Yes, I understood that, and that's why I didn't include the still accessible cached page.

Hazur Maharaj Ji once said:
"The disciples who are giving their sewa in building this satsang ghar,
are going to receive it's benefits whenever anyone in that hall will sit on meditation"

And the point I was making is that in this era, whatever we think and write online,
is never ever never going to get vanished.
Whenever someone going to read that low stuff, is not going to feel good about it.
What could be done then about that person's such hurt feelings ?

Brian would be surprised to know that he has never been able to delete anything.

Just think what and how much Brian is earning from this blog every second ?

[One Initiated]

Spence wrote:
"I liked the original pig photo! "

Could you please elaborate more, what you did like about it ?

[s*]

I did'n't like that Photo at all.

Too harsh.
It is for the tenderhearted dilusioned'' a bit too harsh.
It is difficult to fall from a path where one was so attached to.
It gives also sadness also freedom!
All sort of feelings and thoughts come for some.
To read the stories about the Singh family is still so strange.
I have had the tought for years that everything was perfect in them and their suroundings.
I always felt lesser'' and dirtyer''
Very very strange after all.
I am carefull with satsangi friends,don't wanna hurt them to much.

I was for a longer time a doubter..,but now..''how can there even doubd?''
Still when I see and hear youtube shabds and see devotion it touches very much..
Strange..but that atmosphere in the hall was sometimes entirely beautiful..
Even for doubting people like me..

[Tence Stepper]

Not Manjit Jessica not Manjit.

[PJ2000]

Brian is retracting stories now just like CNN...FAKE NEWS BRIAN.....LOOSING CRED by not vetting. You Jesse and Blonde belong together. Tree hugging fools!

[Bombay Blonde]

@ One : That apology was personal, for the ( blog ) punches we threw at each other. That said, if sentiments get roughed up by a candid vent, someone's really out of balance with themselves, not me. How about the hurt on the other side ? You must've heard " just because you haven't heard the story, doesn't mean it's not true " ...

And, I enjoy the pig species. Watch some videos on truffle hunting, and watch Babe. Watch Kung Fu Panda.
Master Oogway. Master Panda. Master Tiger. Master Mouse. Master Pig. Master You. Master Me.
Same thing.

There's a very interesting talk by Sadhguru on the concept of a gender free soul. I'm not a follower of Sadhguru, just so that you know, but am open to the idea of a matriarchal Guru set up, across all sects. It would be culturally interesting. Actually, what you know nothing of and is of more importance to me than your Beas sideshow is my opinion on the Sikh factions of the Punjab and their possible off-shoots in the future.

Vacation over. Have fun here while I'll let Kaal run after me ... ;)

I'll leave you with this ......
“ Without your truth you will never know the vaulting scope of your own capacity. ”

Bye.

[Jesse]

"Not Manjit Jessica not Manjit."

Not funny either, but almost a good effort.

[Tence Stepper]

Oh come on. Jesselda loosen up a bit and take the joke. You will feel nice and warm.

[One Initiated]

There was an interim update to that photo as well.
I am just curious to know what's going on ?
Brian did anyone requested you to change the photo or you did it on your own ?

I am happy that rotten post is gone now but I am just very curious to know.

btw, I just checked and both versions available.

Blonde, what you've written above is just an uproar of your ego, it's just all nonsense.

After I asked Spence what did he like in the photo,
I see that Spence's comment where he wrote:
"I liked the original pig photo! " is also gone and deleted.

Spence did you ask Brian for the deletion ?
Do you want to respond to the above question ?
If not, then can you please respond that you made a wrong quote and don't want to respond on it ?

Brian, can you please share if Spence asked you to delete it or you deleted on your own ?

[Spence Tepper]

Hi One:

You wrote:

"Spence wrote:
"I liked the original pig photo! "

Could you please elaborate more, what you did like about it ?"

I can't really say. I love all creatures. I'm learning to keep my distance from some pigs, however.

[One Initiated]

I see, and then why and how your comment got deleted ?

And by the way, I have still have a big version of that lovely photo,
let me know if you want that and decorate your living room with that, do you ?
I can send you a high res version of the same.

Spence,
I couldn't imagine you are the same guy who used to post such motivating comments.
Couldn't agree more that mind is the biggest player.
You must still be thinking you are so clear in your analysis and everything,
not knowing that how badly you are tricked by your mind.
Wish you Master's Love.

[Brian Hines]

Jesse, I deleted the GIF you shared for a couple of reasons. (1) It wasn't relevant to the topic of this post, and (2) It would unnecessarily offend RSSB devotees who are visiting this blog from India and elsewhere.

By "unnecessarily," I mean this.

There are two main issues with Gurinder Singh Dhillon, One is whether the Sant Mat/RSSB philosophy he teaches is true. The other issue concerns the shady financing dealings he's been a part of since he became the RSSB guru.

I'd like this blog to be a welcoming place for people who are interested, and worried about, the second issue, even though they are still believers in the RSSB teachings. And I really do see these as separate issues.

Recently l've been focused on the guru's financial dealings, because this is what's being reported on by Indian business publications. I've written a lot about why I don't believe in the Sant Mat/RSSB philosophy any more, but again, this is a different issue from whether Gurinder Singh Dhillon has violated ethical, and possibly legal, norms with the Dhillon family financial entanglements.

I believe you've said you're a Trump supporter. I'm not.

But hopefully we could agree that if the Mueller investigation finds that Trump was engaged in legal wrongdoing, there should be consequences for this. It doesn't matter whether you or I like Trump, or endorse his policies. Wrongdoing is a separate issue from Trump's policy positions.

Likewise, I'm trying to differentiate between the RSSB guru's position as a religious leader, and his involvement in questionable financial dealings.

[AJ]

@BB (Bombay Blonde)

I will have to dig up references on Jagat and Kirpal. David Lane seems to have a lot of stuff on that topic. Can you please share these chronicles from Jalandhar and Amritsar/folklore from Lahori Sikhs. I also have an academic interest in this topic (It is not going to help me in any way apart from satisfying the intellectual curiosity)

It is interesting that you bring Ishwar up. I find his talks and his modern take on Sant Mat while connecting it back to Baba Sawan Singh very interesting and refreshing. I have attended a few of his talks.
1. Has a lot of magnetism and radiance.
2. He does not diss any other Master.
3. Only talks about Baba Sawan Singh and how he is only doing Seva for his Master.
4. His explanation on how to locate the 3rd eye center is unmatched.
5. His explanation of the mechanics behind Simran and how to effectively use it is also unheard and very helpful.
6. Numbers are very small. So, everyone can get personal time with him. (I believe there are less than 5000 initiates worldwide. The Wisconsin Bhandara on Baba Sawan Singh's death anniversary attracts only 400 or so people)
7. He responds to questions/doubts over emails.
8. All his talks are available for free on youtube. So, they are very easily accessible.
9. He seems to be attracting a lot of advanced/experienced Satsangis from all the Masters. You mentioned Rajinder (who is sort of his neighbor in Palatine, Chicago area). Apart from Rajinder and new seekers, he is attracting -
a. Sant Kirpal Singh initiates
b. Sant Thakar Singh initiates
c. Sant Ajaib Singh initiates
d. Maharaj Charan Singh initiates
e. Sant Baljeet Singh intiates.
f. Baba Gurinder Singh initiates
g. Sathya Sai Baba followers
h. John-Rogers followers/initiates (MSIA?).
i. Sant Darshan Singh initiates.
The excitement among these initiates who now attend Ishwar's talks is a sight to be seen. They are flying around the country and the world to attend his talks.
10. Some people are calling it a miracle that people belonging to different groups, who would normally not sit with each other, can be seen under one roof during his talks.
11. He re-initiates people based on permission from the Radiant Form of Baba Sawan Singh
12. He claims that he was initiated by Baba Sawan Singh in 1936 and started seeing the Radiant Form around 1945 or so. (That is almost 70 years ago).
13. He is almost 92 years old and will be gone soon.
14. He does not prepare his talks and can answer any question impromptu. I have asked him some tricky questions in Public and was able to answer those satisfactorily.
15. He does not allow anyone to address him as a Master. He prefers to call himself a co-traveler on the same path.

I can provide more details if needed.

Regarding SGPC, Amarinder has deep connections in the Panthic/SGPC folks. That is how he was able to defeat Arun Jaitly from the Amritsar seat (He is from Patiala and one would not expect him to have any sway in Amritsar) despite the entire Akali machinery trying to ensure Arun Jaitly's victory. Some people (AAP and others) also claim that he has an internal understanding with Badals (Badals take care of his corruption cases and he returns the favor). Not sure how much of that is true. He publicly strongly condemns the Badals. Amarinder has corruption allegations as well but he is considered as less corrupt (lesser of the two evils). Modi/Badals are using his Swiss Bank account/CBI information to leash Amarinder.

Regarding gender free soul, Ishwar has also commented on that and also explained the Gay/LGBT from Sant Mat perspective. Pretty interesting stuff.

There is an initial draft of a compilation of his teachings. I can point it out if you are interested.

[Brian Hines]

One Initiated, I deleted the post because the person who provided me with the information made a request that I do this. I've gotten requests like this in the past, when a person wants information shared in a comment or post to be removed, and I honor those requests. Comments are associated with a post, so when the post was unpublished, so are the comments.

[La Madrugada]

@AJ
Thank you for your posting, especially about Ischwar Puri.
For people who are interested: there are a lot of Ischwar's discourses on Youtube.
He answered my question personally by email and i was happy with the answer.
This is indeed refreshing: discourses recorded and personal contact.

[Jesse]

Brian, thanks for taking the time to explain, but you can delete any and all of my posts for any or no reason at all.
It's your blog and I'm not attached to Internet comments.

[Spence Tepper]

Hi One:

You wrote:

"Spence,
I couldn't imagine you are the same guy who used to post such motivating comments.
Couldn't agree more that mind is the biggest player.
You must still be thinking you are so clear in your analysis and everything,
not knowing that how badly you are tricked by your mind.
Wish you Master's Love."

Actually, One, Maharaji taught us that in 99% of the cases where we think we control the mind, it is the mind that is controlling us.

It's unfortunate, but we must use mind to function here.

Meditation can help us maintain a separate peace, a separate perspective that helps keep the mind in balance. And that allows us to see without reacting.

Spirituality is what brought me to the Path. And it is surprising to find a spiritual teacher who does not place spirituality front and center above all other things. So, while there may be explanations for it (my crystal ball is in the shop today so I'm not mind-reading), I am still obliged to use my judgement and at least acknowledge the facts.

I do love Baba Ji, and I know from personal experience he is both wise and powerful.

But I also must acknowledge the facts:

Gurindar sold an RSSB charitable hospital, and all its acreage, to himself, into his private equity company, RHC, run by his son.

https://www.cnbctv18.com/views/the-devotion-of-the-singh-brothers-of-fortis-runs-deep-into-their-businesses-63575.htm

And in this legal document, where a construction company is suing RSSB and Fortis, it is confirmed.

https://indiankanoon.org/doc/87320658/

Worse, we learn that Gurindar had the charitable hospital destroyed, with the understanding that a new RSSB hospital would be built in its place. But after it was demolished, he moved those 200 acres of property to his private for-profit firm, Fortis, and build a specialty hospital, not a charitable hospital. He did it in a way the construction company called "clandestine."

And we read of the myriad companies Gurindar has placed family members, including his wife, into principle roles, siphoning illegal loans from Fortis (also with one of his sons in a principle role) into these through the Singhs.

The line between Spirituality and Superstition is fairly easy to draw: Spirituality helps me to acknowledge reality, even when I don't understand it or like it.

Superstition turns me away from truth, into denial, to support a system of belief instead of reality.

So, I always choose Spirituality, even when I do not understand all the facts.

There may be a perfectly reasonable explanation for why Baba Ji has violated simple ethical principles over and over again. Could just be greed. Or maybe a higher purpose.

Because of my spirituality, I don't need to answer the "why". I can easily acknowledge the fact.

Indeed, Maharaji requires me to do so.

[AJ]

BTW,

Another bit of interesting information from Ishwar Puri -
There are around 7 PLMs on this planet at this time.

[Jesse]

AJ, I'm the only perfect living master. Those 6 others are liars.

[Jen]

Hi AJ,

About Ishwar Puri - I used to enjoy watching his videos but this was what put me off his talks, initiating people - if he is not the real deal he is taking on a lot of karma -

"11. He re-initiates people based on permission from the Radiant Form of Baba Sawan Singh"

You also say that he says "There are around 7 PLMs on this planet at this time".

I'm voting for Jesse ;)

[Dungeness]

How can this happen?
It is beyond question at this point. The evidence is there in plentiful supply.

It happened because, as wise and clever as he is, this is not a Sant Sat Guru

I'd love to loosen up and join the pig merriment but
gee, GSD hasn't been indicted, hasn't responded with
his promised statement, there's certainly been no due
process, and the only "verdict" that's been rendered
seems to be that of blog "pastors" and their intrepid
band of truth worshippers.

They're even opining about how "wise and clever" GSD
is. Or was, Not bad for a Fake Guru, one duly appointed,
but certainly "not a Sant Sat Guru". Musta been a mistake,
so-called "gurus" are only human after all. Higher awareness
a myth. Pick a new Guru, there are hundreds. Heck, we
could anoint one from the "Churchless" faithful. (He/She
might even turn out to be one of the "Magnificent Seven"
PLM's said to be roaming the planet)

Truth is on the march. Naturallly go through motions of
examining evidence against the Faker-in-Chief. Wink. It's
only a matter of time before he steps down and is exiled
in disgrace.

Who says the churchless can't have fun. Oops, mind the
slop though. It's overflowing the sty.

[AJ]

@Jen

I have also gone through the same debate.

My current understanding is the Ishwar may be a PLM who out of humility ascribes everything to his Master. I have heard him say that if anyone asked for a favor/mitigation of karma from Baba Sawan Singh, Baba Sawan Singh used to say that I will pray to my Master (Baba Jaimal Singh) to help. So, if that is the case, who took the Karma? Baba Jaimal Singh or Baba Sawan Singh? I think it was Baba Sawan Singh who took care of the karma because he was the living Master. I believe it works the same way with Ishwar. He will publicly never acknowledge that he is a Living Master but his initiates think that he is.

@Dungeness
Maybe Dungeness can correct me?

[Jesse]

Dungeness, the sangat is the jury in these cases. If we, active and exes, decide we no longer have faith or trust in the guru and find his actions deplorable, it doesn't matter what the law says. Sangats aren't part of the legal system.

Since the me too movement keeps popping up we can use that analogy. Just because there is insufficient evidence that someone in Hollywood has committed crimes, the studio or company s/he works for can still fire that person if they feel the actions were bad enough to warrant it. Not everything needs to be viewed through or acted upon by the standards of the justice system.

[Spence Tepper]

Dungeness you may read the facts and draw your own conclusion as to why Baba Ji acted this way. But the events are real.

That's all that matters.

My opinion about them should not be what you react to. I'm just a guy.

But the facts of nepotism, destroying the RSSB charitable hospital and selling THE RSSB land to his own company (basically setting his own price) are the crucial pieces of information.

Gurindar sold an RSSB charitable hospital, and all its acreage, to himself, into his private equity company, RHC, run by his son, then to his other company run by relatives and his other son, Fortis.

https://www.cnbctv18.com/views/the-devotion-of-the-singh-brothers-of-fortis-runs-deep-into-their-businesses-63575.htm

And in this legal document, where a construction company is suing RSSB and Fortis, it is confirmed.

https://indiankanoon.org/doc/87320658/

Worse, we learn that Gurindar had the charitable hospital destroyed, with the understanding that a new RSSB hospital would be built in its place. But after it was demolished, he moved those 200 acres of property to his private for-profit firm, Fortis, and build a specialty hospital, not a charitable hospital.

Now this may all be the work of a perfect Master, the conflicts of interest, breach of ethics, nepotism and personal use of RSSB property.

My opinion is that a perfect master would never violate their own vow to live a clean moral life and do these things.

But right now all that matters is that he did them. That's a matter of verified record.

[Dungeness]

@AJ

Hi, I have no real understanding. All I know
is how much I'm drawn to Ishwar and other
masters in the RSSB line. I view them all as
PLM's.

[AJ]

@Dungeness

I have also felt drawn to Ishwar after seeing him in person.
If Ishwar is correct, there are 7 to 8 PLMs on this planet. So, it is possible.

Any guesses who the other 6 to 7 PLMs are apart from Ishwar?

[One Initiated]

hi Spence,

In another comment on another thread where you projected false and fake figures about Master's schedule.
I responded on that with factual figures, however you skipped responding again on that.

I am adding that comment here again in case if you actually even skipped reading that:

"You will have to see the yearly schedule here:
https://www.rssb.org/satsang_schedules.php

Just like the Great Master and Hazur,
80% time of the year HE is spending in traveling to the locations and delivering discourses.
Also remember at any location after the day of Sunday satsang,
the Master remains at the location for 3 days (at big centre) and 1 day (at smaller ones)
for the initiation.
That even doesn't include the foreign trips, include them and the travel time as well,
the Master actually doesn't even get enough rest.

But I think with your current state of mind you can't even perceive a simple algorithm and calculation of the satsang schedules.

Wishing Master's love and faith your way brother."

Also remember the dates mentioned in Schedule page,
whenever it's mentioned one date at Beas - it's only mentioned Sunday, but that actually means a minimum of 3 days including Friday and Saturday as well.

[Jesse]

"the Master actually doesn't even get enough rest."

Considering that he claims to be god, it should be pretty easy to keep a schedule about 1/10th as difficult as any rock band.

He lives in luxury too which certainly makes his grueling schedule of meeting rich people in the dera for tea a bit easier.

[Jesse]

One Initiated, have you looked at that 2019 schedule?

He's scheduled for a total of about 12 hours in March. One of if not the busiest month. It's hard to tell what you think makes him look like he's devoting so much to the sangat. He's been on the board of more companies than the number of satsangs he gives in a year.

[Spence Tepper]

Hi One:

Do I really need to do the math?

What I presented was factual, One. Yes, Gurindar spends 80% of his time in his other pursuits which explains how he has managed to get himself and his relatives in such a situation. This leaves 20% for Spiritual Seva.

Please take a look at that schedule again.

Here are the Satsang days compared to days in the month:

January = 8 / 31
February = 5 /28
March = 12 / 31
April = 2 /30
May = 6 / 31
June = 2 / 30
July = 0 / 31
August = 2 /31
September = 4 / 30
October = 7 /31
November = 11 /30
December = 10 /31
January = 3 / 31

Total = 72 / 396 = 19% Sant Mat Days.....leaving 324 days, or 82% (my earlier estimate was generous) for various forms of mischief.

[Spence Tepper]

The half percent difference became rounding error...81.5% to be precise.

[Spence Tepper]

One more point, One...
Giving Satsang is only two hours. Leaving hours free for business transactions.
And being at any location is a good opportunity to conduct land business there also.. :)

But that is all aside, One. These are estimates, either way..

What matters is what he actually did, and that is not conjecture, but fact:

Gurindar sold an RSSB charitable hospital, and all its acreage, to himself, into his private equity company, RHC, run by his son, then to his other company run by relatives and his other son, Fortis.

https://www.cnbctv18.com/views/the-devotion-of-the-singh-brothers-of-fortis-runs-deep-into-their-businesses-63575.htm

And in this legal document, where a construction company is suing RSSB and Fortis, it is confirmed.

https://indiankanoon.org/doc/87320658/

Worse, we learn that Gurindar had the charitable hospital destroyed, with the understanding that a new RSSB hospital would be built in its place. But after it was demolished, he moved those 200 acres of property to his private for-profit firm, Fortis, and build a specialty hospital, not a charitable hospital.

[Brian Hines]

Spence, OMG! Numbers! Facts! In a Church of the Churchless comment!

I am overwhelmed with joy. And that's even before I've had my nightly glass of wine and some inhalations of good Oregon-grown marijuana (legal) in the bathtub.

Yes, Gurinder Singh Dhillon has a pretty good job. Most people work five days a week, with maybe a two week vacation. By my calculations, that's 5 X 50 = 250 work days, compared to 2 X 50 + 7 X 2 = 114 non-work days. So most people have about 31% days off, while the guru has 82% days off.

I'm sure, though, that some RSSB members will be pleased to take issue with my calculations. That's fine. At least we're talking numbers.

[One Initiated]

Spence,

I am glad you responded; however, you've presented extremely poor calculations.

First thing you completely ignored this statement:
"whenever it's mentioned one date at Beas - it's only mentioned Sunday, but that actually means a minimum of 3 days including Friday and Saturday as well."

For all Beas Satsangs HE is always present from Friday through Sunday - but what mentioned for that programme as only Sunday.

And then you are ignoring the 3 days session HE is mostly available at Beas post the Satsang programme and 1/2 days at other locations for Indian Sangat.

And then you are also ignore the specifically mentioned Initiation programme for NRI sangat on specific dates other than the Satsang programme.

You may want to visit this link again: https://www.rssb.org/satsang_schedules.php

Also you are completely ignoring the facts and misrepresenting the calculations.
Let me help you a little by correcting your algebra.

Exactly what I stated, with your current state of mind, you are incapable of perceiving the simple calculations.

For example in January there is Satsang on 19th and 20th in Raipur,
and then there is Satsang on 22nd and 23rd in MP.

So essentially only Monday 21st Jan (which you excluded) to travel and rest off in between the different states' satsang programme.
And this is exactly the schedule throughout the year.

Having just one day to travel from one place to another, HE is consistently in the service of the disciples not even getting enough rest.

The number of discourses even at Beas have been increased to almost 5 times, if not more, as what they used to be at the time of Hazur.

HE is so kind and continuously travelling so much to cover as many locations as possible for delivering the discourse for the Spiritual benifit of millions of human beings, despite being in fatigue and restlessness.

The Great Master and Hazur are always congratulating HIM for carrying forward the Sant Mat with such an elegance.

[Jesse]

Even with the days you added, One, it's still an extremely relaxed and part-time workload, especially since being at Dera isn't work at all, not is "initiating" people. If I recall, Indian "initiations" consist of Gurinder sitting there and zoning out while one of his lackeys reads the instructions from a book. That's not a terribly diffiult job. Even if he has to read the instructions, it's still light activity. A dying 100 year old with pneumonia could do it, to be honest.

He's in the "service" of disciples precisely never. Nobody meets him. You've never met him. You'll never talk to him. Nobody you know will either. He walks past crowds, and then disappears. That's the level of service. A guy on a golf cart or walking past a pile of bread and bowing to it for 1 second to "bless" the bread while sad people stare at him. Sad people like the 2008 version of me.

[seeker]

Jesse - what was the turning point for you? What exactly made you come out of this path?

[Dungeness]

Now this may all be the work of a perfect Master, the conflicts of interest, breach of ethics, nepotism and personal use of RSSB property.

My opinion is that a perfect master would never violate their own vow to live a clean moral life and do these things.

But right now all that matters is that he did them. That's a matter of verified record.

I agree. The evidence is plentiful. Many conclude there's
probable cause to indict Trump for serious crimes too. Even
without indictment, many legitimately fault his moral lapses
and challenge his fitness for office.

GSD's legal circumstances are similiar. The criminality has
to be proven in court. But, whatever the perception of GSD's
ethics/morality, he should be give an opportunity to respond.
It's not blind faith or any kind of abdication of "human
dignity and intelligence" to keep an open mind. Unless of
course, you have inner awareness and just need to set
the dummies among us straight.

Maybe GSD cops to 3rd degree pigginess and resigns, or
warns of trusting the advice of others too heavily, or offers a
teachable moment on the dangers of blind faith, or reminds
us to trust nothing that you can't verify within.

The problem I see again is the absurd expectation that GSD
should stage-manage the destinies of everyone involved to
to match perceptions of how a GIHF and those in his orbit
"should behave".

Absent that, there's this seeming rush to judgment:

"as wise and clever as he is, this is not a Sant Sat Guru"

How can that be known or asserted? It suggests the appointment
was unmoored from higher awareness. Charan Singh must have
had an off-day when he placed trust in GSD, eh?

Since, the appointment process is clearly flawed, and there's
been heretical up-versioning of SantMat catechism to version
2 (Or is it 3), maybe the sangat should vote on the successor
or changes to litury, relax policy on the diet, reduce meditation
to 5% of the day.

The sangat's opinion is the one that really counts one of our
blog "pastors" suggests. Don't try to frame everything legally
he suggests. What's next? An RSSB site "Facebook" where you
can upvote your faves? Unfriend the Guru if he does sumptin'
you don't agree with?

[Jesse]

Seeker, your question prompted me to ramble on and on like a drunken hobo. I've kept some of it and cut and pasted the paragraphs into possibly nonsensical order.Hopefully it is intelligible. Enjoy!

I started thinking really basic things and asking really easy questions, and it became obvious that this was all bullshit. People meditate without gurus and make the same claims. People don't meditate and declare they're the most spiritual. It's an unprovable hypothesis, even including inner experiences. We can't know which experiences we're not having or what regions we're not astrally traversing.

Somewhere on this blog Brian posted my story. Not being able to give away RSSB books for free at the satsangs really pissed me off, tbh. That was kind of a triggering moment for me when I thought there were attempts by them to hide old ideas and possibly make money.

But my path out of RS took years, and in a way it's still going on since I read so much of their literature in the past. Until you actually spend time in other religions and learn about their theology, you really don't know how much RSSB misrepresents other religions aka lies profusely. After you read it all you tend to superimpose the RS view onto other religious scriptures instead of understanding how that religion interprets itself.

After a while it just stopped making sense to me to worship humans who I could see were obviously flawed. Dungeness makes my point for me in her response to Spence.

"How can that be known or asserted? It suggests the appointment
was unmoored from higher awareness. Charan Singh must have
had an off-day when he placed trust in GSD, eh?"

In order to believe in Gurinder, I would necessarily have to believe in another man I've never met. It's appeals to authority all the way down baby! How can it be known or asserted that any of these guys were anything more than Punjabis who owned a family religion? It can't be.

[seeker]

Wow Jesse, thanks for telling your part of the story. My entire family believes RSSB blindly though since the beginning I haven't seen a single change in any which the books talk about. I have come across some people who are Head of Department with the highest ego you can ever see.

I have realised one thing after going through Baba Faqir Chand's video that no human can be God. We should not worship any human being as God, it will lead to trouble. We can all see what's happening around. God is within us and you don't need an intermediary to realise it. Simple. The outer form can only guide like how we have school/University teachers who teaches various subjects, but we don't call them God, same should be with spirituality.

[Sincere Devotee]

Hi 777,

Can you pls elaborate?

"In due time Darshan will happen via 3D 8K Broadcasting
and will help sincere devotees to go within easily

Of course 6 persons on 30 million will object"

Thank you

[Bombay Blonde]

@ AJ : In reply to your comment above at 1136hrs.

AJ, thank you for taking time out to outline Ishwar's approach, it's food for thought for those who want to explore more about Surat Shabd Yog. I'm familiar with Ishwar's work and I find him extremely knowledgeable about Baba Sawan and original Sant Mat. ( Not the shaken n' stirred versions of Beas. )

I met him a few years ago, he definitely knows the subject. He spoke at length, related and correlated with ease, there was a sense of sincerity in his disposition. For those who absolutely insist on having a Living Master from the RS lineage, I'd say he is, possibly, the best exponent of Surat Shabd Yog from the list you mentioned above.

I continue to be on the fence with the very idea of an " Anhad Shabd " but regardless, the first premise would be to find a teacher who is not shrouded in materialism. Ishwar has a charming past of his own and had ties with Yogi Bhajan. But, I like that. Better to indulge, shed and move up spiritually than be placed on a pedestal and spiral down. The greatest problem is that RSSB Satsangis fail to educate themselves about Sant Mat. Beas has shifted from Sant Mat to Oneness, it's been a slow overhaul that has been discussed at length by Brian and Osho, here. I now refer to RSSB teachings as Beas Mat or better still ... okay, let's not ruffle any more feathers ... :)

It is another matter that Beas was hardly aligned with the original Sant Mat teachings. As Jesse pointed out above, their publications are ridden with their own ideas of other theologies and religious texts. However, to make it less complex and for the sake of discussion, let's still call it Sant Mat up to the end of Charan's era.

I'd like to discuss Sikh factions and politics of the Punjab, let's do that over email. It's a deep academic interest at my end as well. I look forward to corresponding with you, and may just take you up on your offer to meet with Ishwar again. Have a lovely day and thank you again for your well articulated response.

~ BB

[Bombay Blonde]

@ Jesse : Thank you for sharing your story, the part that strikes me most is " I started thinking really basic things and asking really easy questions " ... ... sums up everything. People love dwelling in complicated complexities but hardly work on making that one little change within themselves. Exalted ideals are easier than hard work.

[Bombay Blonde]

@ One Initiated : I suffer from bad benevolence. I take my parting apology back. You don't deserve it. You're the sort who keeps breaking olive branches and that's rather unforgiving for someone who claims to have " lots of love and shabad " to share. Oh well, the less that's said. The other thing I'm convinced about is that I love animals more than you. Let's just agree to a mutual stand off, no one wants to read the squabbles of other commenters.

[Jesse]

"God is within us and you don't need an intermediary to realise it. Simple. The outer form can only guide like how we have school/University teachers who teaches various subjects, but we don't call them God, same should be with spirituality."

You could be correct, but I'm personally not convinced of a knowable god or any amount of innate divinity or divine substances in man.

Theories abound, as do methods, but by using the criteria of mystics, specifically their claims of transformative powers, we see ample evidence that their claims are untrue. Almost everyone who joins a religion retains an identical character from the day they join until the day they die and any minor changes can be attributed to age.

But maybe I'm wrong and Manjit has seen god's face and it was just as described in the exclusive esoteric books only he has access to.

[Spence Tepper]

Hi Dungeness:

You quoted me and commented:

""as wise and clever as he is, this is not a Sant Sat Guru"

How can that be known or asserted? It suggests the appointment
was unmoored from higher awareness. Charan Singh must have
had an off-day when he placed trust in GSD, eh?"

It is always a matter of personal opinion. To see the Guru as God still remains that person's perspective. Nothing else is transferrable.

So, it is my opinion, just as you have yours. My opinion is based upon facts, and personal experience, as much as possible.

You know better than others that to suggest any wrong doing on Baba Ji's part is the LAST THING ON EARTH I wanted or want to do.

Even if it is correct, it is a terrible karma, a terrible job.

First, it's terrible to see the facts as they are. Because I'm on a path that honors truth, so I cannot look away when the facts are right there and obvious.

How can Charan have been wrong? How can Baba Ji be wrong? How can anyone they appoint in the Sangat be wrong? How can the beloved Sivindar be wrong? Didn't he have Master's love and protection? Etc...Etc...

My fear is this just twists around our basic ability to understand right and wrong. And that's a very corrupting thing to do.

I think we have to pull back from all that and say "what are the facts?"

And do as Bombay so eloquently stated, "Start asking really basic questions."

I can still believe that all this is divine will, that Maharaji is there, perfect.

But the same capacity to honestly make that assessment is the same that says "I don't believe a Sant Sat Guru would violate morality or ethics, and these are violations of both."

Naturally, as more information comes in, my view will rest upon new facts. That's how I got here.

If I change my mind, it will be because facts prove otherwise. And frankly, I want Baba Ji to somehow clear up this extremely negative but absolutely fact based picture.

But however much I want that, it doesn't change the picture nor my duty to make an informed judgement of right and wrong.

[One Initiated]

" I suffer from bad benevolence"
You are in dire need of it.

"I take my parting apology back"
I am no moderator, please ask Brian to delete it :-)

Also, maybe you want him to put the post back as well ?

Have a great time :)

[Bombay Blonde]

@ One Initiated : I want to introduce you to a couple of disgruntled Satsangis. Please help them. Will you agree to do this Seva ? I need to return to writing some papers, and am done with the RSSB saga.

[Spence Tepper]

I'm thinking more deeply about the path of the Masters.

At what point does a love of truth become a personality cult?

At the single point of time when we chose to ignore facts because of our attachment to the Master? Or our attachment to our own myths about the Master?

At that point this sort of love of the Master is corruption.

And while the facts of Baba Ji's misdeeds is disturbing, it is the desire to ignore fact because of that sort of love that is most disturbing.

Most of my relatives died in concentration camps. Because Hitler said destroying them was good, most people believed it. Their capacity to judge right from wrong was completely corrupted by the charisma of Hitler.

There is a dark, dark side to all this, and it is the defensive reaction, the excuse making, the conjectures made to turn what is wrong, magically, into something right.

Such comments are most disturbing of all.

If we are to honor each believer's sentiments, what about honoring the sentiments of those who love Truth?

Who will speak out for Her?

[tucson]

To Spence or anyone active with RSSB.... Does it appear that most GSD followers are still in denial or are there significant numbers who have accepted what is going on as truth and are packing their bags either literally or figuratively?

[AJ]

@Spence
Those are very good questions.

In the past, I had to go through similar experiences. All I can say is these experiences are good for one's learning and progress. Also, for better or worse, I now always wear a critical hat and try to use common sense when getting involved with anything spiritual.

BTW, I have transitioned through many masters due to my questioning spirit. I cannot give 100% devotion unless I am 100% satisfied. I always look out for the red flags.

I don't have the right answer but I suppose we have to always keep our guard up while pursuing the spiritual path to the best of our efforts. And anytime you find yourself making excuses is the time to evaluate. It can be draining.

Also, based on my experience, when one door closes, another door opens. Have to keep up the seeking...

[Jen]

"At that point this sort of love of the Master is corruption."

There are so many different kinds of love. As for truth, what we see in others is a reflection of who we are and also what we need and hope to find.

[panni gali]

Faqir Chand's thoughts elaborated on this subject of "perfect masters."

https://sites.google.com/view/chandian-revolution/home

[AJ]

@Bombay Blonde

We can exchange notes on Sikh Factions, politics and also Jagat-Kirpal.

Regarding Ishwar, I am aware of the "rumors". Based on experience with many Masters, I think I can safely say that the truth lies somewhere in between what the loyalists proclaim and what the opponents decry.

One good think is that Ishwar has talked about his association with Yogi Bhajan (Puri) instead of denying it. He shares the same last name Puri with Yogi. Also, Ishwar has talked about the cadillacs and the Harvard parties with "beautiful girls".

[Dungeness]

If I change my mind, it will be because facts prove otherwise. And frankly, I want Baba Ji to somehow clear up this extremely negative but absolutely fact based picture.

But however much I want that, it doesn't change the picture nor my duty to make an informed judgement of right and wrong.

Hi Spence, I agree in main.

Without inner awareness, most will stop building mud huts
and fade away too. Evidence of a guru's looniness is in plain
sight. So we make our best efforts to comprehend and then
act. Case closed.

But, until facts/evidence are overwhelmingly persuasive,
explanations heard, legal verdict rendered, and appeals
denied, my instinct would be to reserve judgment. I'd
certainly not be ready to assert "this is no Sant Mat guru".
That's a bridge too far and in my view more closely
resembles a conflation of opinion with "truth" . Certainly
without more of the drama unfolding.

We follow the facts and understanding vouchsafed to us.
There was some faith to even accept a mystic path though
and we exercised that as well in Maharaji's appointment
of Gurinder. If we've even taken tiny steps on the path, we
come to understand the deceptive power of the mind,
of the danger of quick judgments, of apparitions and
sure bets that dazzle for a moment and then vanish.

We seem to have an infinite capacity for giving in and
accepting things seen through a "glass darkly" or at
least a glass that's arguably still too murky to say exactly
what's inside it. We cave all too quickly when we might
have taken a few more steps and found the truth. We
simply had no patience for building another "mud hut".

[Spence Tepper]

Hi AJ
You wrote
"Also, based on my experience, when one door closes, another door opens. Have to keep up the seeking..."

Yes. Well another door has opened, and, and frankly at this point I am unable to close it. Light keeps pouring through. And the picture is disturbing.

[Spence Tepper]

Is it possible that not only the Satsangis posting here, but even Gurindar, his sons and wife, the brothers Singh, even their mom, believe they done nothing wrong?

[AJ]

@Spence

It depends! Depends on the brainwashing.

If everyone in this play (sons, wives, singh brothers, nimmi, etc.) thinks that GSD is the PLM/GIHF then anything he says is Gospel and no one questions. Mind can rationalize anything it wants to in that condition. God can do no wrong.

I wonder if GSD is the orchestrator and everyone else is merely complying or if GSD himself is deluded into thinking that he is doing the right thing for the benefit of the poor, etc., etc.

or

nothing wrong has happened (it only appears so) - it is just another test of faith :). Everyone gets a straight passage to Sach Khand without any meditation or cleaning of karmas for keeping faith.

or

everyone is fully involved and doing it for the benefit of the family.

[AJ]

@Spence

I see a kind of a parallel here -
What I can recall is that there was a major scandal involving pedophilia by Sathya Sai Baba. He denied he had done anything wrong. He said he was pure. His devotees vehemently defended him. Most Indian devotees were in complete denial. Not many cases involving Indian kids came out.

But there were instances of his school students and many western devotees coming out and alleging impropriety. BBC even made a documentary about it. (BBC Secret Swami - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i3HtZMP3BeU)

Who was right? Were victims having a mass hallucination? Was Sai Baba helping them with their Karmas and therefore claiming he was pure? (Many devotees claim that)

https://robertpriddy.wordpress.com/2011/05/10/strong-sai-baba-sex-abuse-testimony-from-ex-form-boy/

[Spence Tepper]

Hi AJ

That a guru misbehaves itself is bad, and in the case you site criminal in its harm to innocent children. But the people who, out of love for their guru, twist the story, invent explanations, cling to their superstitions, and ostracized those who are just telling the truth. These are the more serious crimes because they are fertile ground for corrupt gurus.

And the crime is not so much that the Guru corrupted their disciples, but that the disciples themselves, in their adoration, elect to relinquish their responsibility to live in the most honest and truthful way they can, preferring instead an easy, singular universal truth, which is their guru's perfection. The more perfect they can make their Guru, the less responsible they are.

It seems that such disciples could corrupt their Guru!

I was listening to a recording of Maharaji and in it he specifically tells an initiate "I'm a struggling soul just like you, doing my job. If it were up to me I'd be sitting with you in the audience! Please don't put me up on a pedestal."

Maybe these superstitious initiates really need to listen.

But now I see that by Not putting the Guru on a pedestal requires greater personal responsibility. And proclaiming the Guru is God is actually relinquishing personal responsibility.

And that is dangerous.

[Spence Tepper]

What is the effect on a person when thousands of people treat them like God every single day, year in year out for decades?

Could that sort of unchecked superstitious adoration make someone mentally unbalanced?

[Jesse]

That Sai Baba case is super weird.The guy was a 3rd rate magician with an ugly hair style, and his crappy magic tricks were considered proof of his divinity. Imagine what someone like David Blaine could do in India. If he called himself a god and called his tricks "miracles", within a year he'd have statues built for him and would likely be crowned eternal king of the nation.

I've come across accounts of sexual molestation like what Sai baba was accused of as being considered genuine initiations in some Hindu circles. There are a lot of secret sexual initiations and most people believe in the stuff, so the insinuation that molesting little boys is wrong is more controversial than the molestation of little boys.... as long as you molest them in the proper HINDU way. Supposedly the guys in the Hindu monastery in Hawaii are gay and do all kinds of "stuff." But I can't accuse them of such. Just saying it's something I've heard.

There was an Indian movie that came out a few years ago about an old ritual where a bunch of Brahmins rape a young girl, with the parents' consent. Supposedly it's a real thing. The movie was banned in India if I remember correctly, as are many movies that expose ugly truths or even admit to the existence of homosexuality in India.

Then there was the guy who became famous just a year or two ago who was claimed to be healing children with deformities and such by standing and bouncing on their heads and necks. You can look that up and watch video footage if you can stomach it. Extremely disturbing stuff, and obviously doing far more harm than good to children, but again the parents are willfully bringing their kids to him because he was a guru.

Westerners usually fall into one of two camps. One thinks that Hinduism is lofty and philosophical and provides answers to all the existential questions mankind has ever asked. The other thinks that it's a disturbing backward religion that resembles voodoo more than philosophy.

Both are right, but the former is found in western universities and satsangs attended mostly by the rich, and the latter is what is practiced by the vast majority of Hindus.

[Best]

We are human, but behave like sheeps. Just follow, without reason. Let me give you some examples
1.Gurmeet Ram Rahim Singh, head of Sacha sauda, was just like any other religious imposter, one day started singing songs, sangat started attending his ruhani nights. Then he started making films, people thronged to theatres to have glimpse of their God. Then he started making a Film every six months. Actually it's just a ploy to convert black money. The rich sangat used to buy all tickets and gave it to others, so that the film is a hit. After that he was convicted and sent to jail. People sent thousands of letters to him on his birthday. So stupid! He is there for raping, not for good of people.

2. A Godman named Ashutosh Maharaj of nurmahal died 4 years ago. They spread the news that he is meditating and will come back to life. His dead body was not cremated and is in a deep freezer for last 4 years. His sangat hopes that he will be alive again.

3. Asaram bapu, of ahmedabad, is also in jail on being convicted of rape, but dumb people keep on bowing their heads in front of jail, on stations ,in courts when he is out there in case of any appearance in courts.

What's astonishing is that the believers are not illetrate people only, they are doctors, engineers, judges, and other professionals. There is nothing you can to change mindsets of those people.

[Jesse]

Best, what you said about Ashutosh Maharaj reminded me of a similar thing that happened in one of the Jewish sects a few years ago. They had some kind of leader who was considered the promised messiah.

When he died they fully expected him to rise from the dead in 3 days, so they did what any religious fanatics would do and sat around the body in a vigil singing songs for 3 days. Needless to say, he didn't ever resurrect, but to this day there are people who believe he is still the messiah and will wake up soon.

Religion is funnier now that I'm on the outside looking in.

[Dungeness]

If I change my mind, it will be because facts prove otherwise. And frankly, I want Baba Ji to somehow clear up this extremely negative but absolutely fact based picture.

But however much I want that, it doesn't change the picture nor my duty to make an informed judgement of right and wrong.

Hi Spence,

Without inner awareness though, we pursue facts/evidence
like the Keystone Kops. Especially if it's a highly charged topic.
We run in every direction, shout, and blow whistles while the
real perp walks away.

Very soon the KK's are distracted and run out of patience
with the pursuit. With evidence of a guru's looniness in plain
sight though, they declare "we got our man" and round him
up. "Mud hut" samples are seized as evidence and they return
to the station in triumph. Case closed.

So, until facts/evidence are overwhelmingly persuasive, until
GSD's explanation is heard, the drama should be allowed to
unfold. There's a ton of shadiness which makes it even more
critical that it is. Still, I think it's important to reserve judgment
and certainly am not ready to assert "This is no Sant Mat Guru".
That's "a bridge too far", a conflation of opinion with "truth",
even if the other charges aren't an extra-judicial stampede.

We reject unsupported claims, wait for corroboratory facts,
remain agnostic about guilt/innocence, and just pursue the
evidence. It's much like the arc of an RSSB initiate who opts
to follow a mystic path, the Guru, and a duly appointed
successor. The RSSB'er verifies each claim experientially and
rejects blind faith. What's problematic are the cautionary
things we grasp early but so easily lose sight of -the deceptive
power of the mind, the danger of quick judgments, the shiny
objects that distract us.

We seem to have an infinite capacity for caving and accepting
things seen through a "glass darkly" or at least too murkily to
really see clearly what's going on. We're positive the handwriting
is on the wall, when, a few more steps would have revealed things
far more nuanced.

The search for answers judicial and spiritual- is much longer and
more labyrinthine that we expect. They both deserve our utmost
attention to bring to light and care in assessing what the truth is.
It's easy to grow frustrated and to misplace blame -a loony Guru,
flawed teachings, lousy karma- when actually we just had no
patience for building another stinking "mud hut".

[Bombay Blonde]

@ Jesse : I think of Hinduism more as a composite culture, less as a religion. Mythology that is an escape from reality, anecdotal advise on basic human values, a glimpse into human nature, a reason to come together and celebrate, accessible deities cast in clay that can fulfil wishes ... far better than Guru fiefdoms.

There was a movie in the 70's, Sholay. The actor ( Dharmendra ) hides behind the " murti " of Lord Hanuman and begins to mimic his voice while his lady ( Hema Malini ) thinks that the divinity is speaking with her. No one was offended back then, it was happy humour. Most unfortunately, India has seen the emergence of a strong wave of hardline Hinduism ( Hindutva ) ... I don't think any director would be able to get away with a scene like that in 2018 without riots erupting and the censor board running to salvage the situation, scissors in hand.

[Bombay Blonde]

@ AJ : Yes, indeed. Transparency breeds respect. Give me someone who owns their hues instead of a charlatan dipped in white. Where you are headed is more important than where you come from. I like a little vice.

Whenever there are great virtues, it's a sure sign something's wrong. ~ Bertolt Brecht

[Bombay Blonde]

@ AJ : Kindly email Brian, he'll forward me your email ID ... :)

[Spence Tepper]

Hi Dungeness

You wrote
"am not ready to assert "This is no Sant Mat Guru"."

I think that's right. Just keep your eyes open.

You wrote

" Without inner awareness though, we pursue facts/evidence"

What if inner awareness verifies outer facts?

In that moment you have your answer.

I tried to tell you that I'm following orders here.

I'd love to be back where you are, but that is now past.

Just keep your eyes open.

"The path to truth is not a bowl of your mother's pudding"
-Baba Ji

[tucson]

"The path to truth is not a bowl of your mother's pudding"
-Baba Ji

--I don't think the path is a bowl of larvae infested moldy bean curd either. There is this assumption that Truth is enormously difficult to attain. If Truth is Truth then it is here, right here as close as your very being. Truth wouldn't be over in the next galaxy while we live in this Truth deprived galaxy would it? The whole damn Milky Way swirling without Truth? Struggle binds you to ignorance in the same way that certain knots tighten as you resist their hold. Rather than struggling to see Truth, just See. The Milky Way wasn't left out.

[AJ]

@Jesse

I respect your opinion but the 30 million+ devotees of Sathya Sai Baba would beg to differ regarding him being a 3rd rate magician with an ugly hair style. They adored him and considered his appearance special.

TN Seshan, an ex IAS officer, Chief Election Commissioner of India, Magsaysay award winner and a graduate of Physics, claims that he witnessed a genuine miracle and not a magician trick (in BBC’s Secret Swami). Without concrete scientific evidence, it will always remain a matter of conjecture if his “manifestations” were magic tricks or genuine miracles despite whatever Blane can perform. To complicate matters, such “miracles” happened in distance places where he was not present.

Sathya Sai is a good example of how despite what appears as tons of evidence regarding the sexual acts and complicity in the cold blood murder of 4 students in his bedroom there is not even a single legal registered against him in India. Not even a First Information Report. His devotee’s dismissed these allegations as Negative Power at play or test of faith.

It also helped that –
1. The Supreme court judges were in his camp.
2. The various Prime Ministers were in his camp.
3. Even Abdul Kalam, prominent Nuclear Scientist and President of India, was a follower.
4. The entire local police, local judiciary and the Andhra Pradesh Government were in his pocket.
5. He was bringing in a lot of foreign exchange in the form of spiritual tourism.

For those who claim GSD is God because he provides free food to Satsanghis, then there was no bigger God than Sathya Sai ever. He pretty much built two super specialty hospitals – one is rural India and provided free treatment. He provided free drinking water to Andhra Pradesh and Chennai when the governments of Andhra Pradesh and Tamil Nadu failed to deliver and many other major service project which are appreciated by even the critics. But, is that enough to wash away all the allegations? For the devotees, it appears that it is.

His prominent devotees include –
1. Narendra Modi, current Prime Minister of India
2. Mohan Bhagwat, current President of RSS (Hindutva organization)
3. Vajpayee, former Prime Minister of India
4. P.V. Narishma Rao, former Prime Minister of India.
5. A few former Presidents of India.
6. Sachin Tendulkar and Sunil Gavaskar, prominent world cricket players.
7. Isaac Tigrett, founder of Hard Rock Café and House of Blues. He sold his share in Hard Rock Café to build a super specialty in India. His life was saved many times by Sathya Sai (apparently manifesting in LA to save Isaac when his car fell off a few hundred feet high cliff and the car got smashed). He says he will believe in Sathya Sai even if he goes and murders somebody.

Their devotion never waned despite some serious allegations. I wonder why. Did they witness something that we on the outside didn’t? Is there something about the actual experience that matters?

I agree regarding initiations. It is some sort of Kundalini raising exercise. Most of the complainers claimed that their genitals were oiled in some way.

Gurmeet Ram Rahim Singh is the grand successor of Mastana Baluchi, an initiate of Baba Sawan Singh. Ishwar has mentioned that he used to do mitti seva with Mastana Baluchi. Why are the lines originating from Baba Sawan Singh degenerating after a while?

For those who are expecting an abdication or some legal action in the GSD in the Religare episode, even If he is really involved (directly), I don’t see anything happening –
1. I believe he has political patronage of Mohan Bhagwat, RSS president and the most powerful man in the country, who is a king maker. RSSB is not RSS as Khalistanis claim but RSS needs RSSB to expand in Punjab. They have been desperately trying to make inroads.

2. Political patronage from various political parties (Congress and BJP). Need RSSB for votes.

3. Inner Circles, just like inner circles in Sathya Sai Baba’s case – apart from one or two important devotees, will not like to disrupt the system that sustains them financially and otherwise.

4. Initiates who have sold all the material wealth and bought houses/apartments in Beas and willed them to RSSB and cannot sell those properties have no where else to go.

5. To abdicate would taint the Gaddi. He will probably “will” the succession and live out the rest of the days.

6. He will remain mum about the issue (just like Sathya Sai) and will talk only if the donations go down significantly (Like Sathya Sai)

7. The only thing that will probably change is the “will”. Shavinder may be tainted now and a better candidate (Perhaps a female successor like Bombay Blonde mentioned) may be sought.

[Bombay Blonde]

@ AJ : I need to watch Secret Swami again, Sathya was huge. The Kalki Avatar. A messiah who would reign in a new world order. CIA had a ton on him, and nothing happened. Miracles, charities, controversies continue and the sect is still expanding. What if he was just an illusionist lucky to be born in a country where magic combined with frizzy hair was the perfect recipe for Godliness ? He proved it. India has an undying obsession with Godmen.

Personally, from the flamboyants, I still like Osho. Some of his translations ( Ek Oankar Satnam / Japji Sahib / The True Name ) are just simplified versions of RSSB's badly brewed Mat. Currently, Sadhguru Jaggi seems to be on an all time high and has left Sri Sri Ravi far behind. His biggest supporter is the Modi government.

At Dera Beas, all the accommodation is allotted, not sold. People will their personal savings and assets to Beas, but their Dera residences belong to the Dera. I couldn't agree more with the third point you made. The PDF above proves that the high rankers were in board positions in both, the sect as well as the businesses. I strongly believe that the " gaddi " will go back to Charan's direct bloodline - Shivinder's family. He was gearing up to succeed GSD before the house began to crumble. The next Guru will inherit a mess and will have a big clean up job to do.

India is in desperate need of a God Control Act but no one will pass it. Like you correctly pointed out, it is all about vote bank politics. The Sangat is Gurinder's shield at the moment, but you never know what happens.

The prospect of RSS making inroads into Punjab is scary, I shudder to think what will happen of our diversity. I prefer mutations within a narrower cultural spectrum, the RSS will paint India orange. My humble opinion.

[AJ]

@BB

The prospect of RSS making inroads into Punjab is indeed scary. Sikhs were the last line of defense between "orange" and multiculturalism. RSS has taken care of it by creating a generation of Sikh drug addicts (Sikh drug addict should be an oxymoron just like Bombay Blonde :) - Udta Punjab - Majithia has acted as a great agent). I am hoping against hope that in the next election (2019) "it is the economy stupid" takes precedence over the polarization being created by RSS. I shudder to think about another 50 years of this stuff (RSS/BJP hopes to rule for at least another 50 years).

You should watch Secret Swami again. It is quite revealing but you may have to balance it by watching my Uncle's videos :) -
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R8FOcmzvKkE
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=917no5vhNI4

Having seen Sathya Sai in person, I can safely say that he did have "spiritual" juice which could be attributed to tantric or other occult practices. Otherwise, it is not joke to influence the who's who of India's elite, including R.K. Kranjia - a prominent journalist - who was so mesmerized by Sai that he wrote "God Lives in India", by mere magic tricks.

Closing word on RSSB, I don't expect the world to collapse. It is an organization with a core group of academics, thinkers and spin doctors who will come up with a solution under the hood.

[Karl]

@AJ and Bombay Blonde,

Good discussion here about Ishwar... since you ppl hve met him and know much about him ... can u or anyone else give more details on his shady past?

Here is some text written abt his past on RS and Exsat sites ...

"lulalake_1999" wrote on Aug 14, 2000:

I suspected Ishwar of being a bit
randy. I was working in Hawaii in the late sixties, he
was passing through, a very handsome man, we hung out
together for a day or two having met at Satsang. (I used
to visit various Satsangs on the road). Of course
Hawaii is filled with babes aplenty with scant cloth
adorning their bods. Ishwar ogled these babes like an
extremely horny 16 year old boy. Extremely obviously, with
tongue out, wet and dangling.

At first, I chocked it up to his being Indian, from a repressive
society. I thought he might have been outraged, that he
was shocked at such a public, pubic display, and
politely didn't notice his stares. After the first couple
of hours, his giggles tipped me off.

I hadn'tthought about that in years.

****************************************************************************************************************

"Olde Farte" wrote on Dec 11, 2011:

"Sri Ishwar Puri was kicked out of the New York City Sangat (RSSB) circa
1970 for assiduously attempting and sometimes succeeding in seducing young
Satsangi women; Puri was also forbidden to give Satsang at any RSSB meeting.
Like Mr. Ramesh Balsekar, Puri is simple another intelligent, smooth
talking, horny Indian. In other words: a fraud. To include him in a list of
PLMs is ludicrous. As for the Great Master, MSSJ once said: "The lord has
entrusted me with some souls who have the most unbecoming karma." I
wouldn't trust Ishwar Puri any further than I can spit.

Yours,
Olde Farte

****************************************************************************************************************

"mysticbumwipe" wrote on May 17, 2016 & May 17, 2016:

Here's one story he probably doesn't tell.
Ishwar got suspended as an RSSB satsang speaker in the seventies or eighties. The rumour was because he was using his name, his family relation to a famous RSSB author (Lekh Raj Puri), his relatively close contact with Sawan Singh since a child, and the resultant prestige as a 'star' speaker, to hit on the ladies.

I'd be more impressed if he confessed that and showed some remorse for his actions. But he is still selling himself as a 'star'.

. . .

Don't be so deluded by personal antagonism. It is not just rumour. I know someone who was kicked out of the Dera in 1967 because of him.

. . .

He was banned.
There were rumours that went around.
I do have a very close friend who had personal experience of his behaviour. She got kicked out of Dera because if it.

****************************************************************************************************************

[Bombay Blonde]

@ Karl : That's deliriously insightful. Wow, a PLM who can't get his hands off women. I like that. To my recollection, he spoke of his desires rather candidly. I'm not a disciple, but a friend who's a Surat Shabd Yog practitioner ( and who has been around the whole block of Living Master outposts ) told me in detail about how Ishwar came around to openly discussing his own philandering. Yes, I've heard the stories. He's been fairly serious and controversy free the last twenty five years or so ... I'm guessing he kept working his way upward from the lower regions and found a more constructive way to channel his sexual energy ? Or, perhaps, reached a point where his meditation just went into an exalted astral zone and he met Baba Sawan ? Or, was it simply a dawning ?

My contention however, is about the humanness of being. I like the idea of Ishwar saying " I couldn't wait to fuck her ! " It's human. He's human. They're all human. The whole expectation of " perfect " is twisted.

[Bombay Blonde]

@ AJ : All good points above and thank you for the links. I know someone who insists that Sathya waved his hand in the air and produced his favourite " ladoo " every time he met him. He's convinced SSB was God.

Just a mild disagreement on the RS core group, there are no thinkers. Even the worst spin doctor would've have given them a better return on their investments. Goes to show that GSD is a goldfish. Goes to show what happens when you think that God In Human Form cannot go wrong. Goes to show that business and spirituality don't mix.

[Karl]

@Bombay Blonde,

Can u elaborate on ur recollections... what did he speak abt his desires? What did ur friend tell ... u can share if that's okay !
AJ wrote above that he started seeing radiant form around 1945 (or so he claims). Dera incident reported is from 1967 and more in 1970... 22 years after he started seeing the radiant form. Working his way up?
I like what u say about the humanness though!

[Bombay Blonde]

@ Karl : To begin with, he wasn't evasive. He spoke clearly about transcending desire by going through it. Very Osho-esqe in that aspect, I thought. I was with an older member and a few of them were obliquely referencing his past. He was like " So what, are you above desire ? " I'm not making a case for him, but he didn't come off like he was any holier than the rest in the room. There were no Sevadars. No protocol. No darshan. He didn't call himself a Master. He said he was flawed. All this was refreshing to someone who had just left Beas. But, I wasn't in search of a new Master. I was studying Sat Mat history at the time as I still considered myself a seeker.

If I recollect correctly, he said " Focus on your own experience. " I liked that. He didn't speak of regions. He didn't speak of divinity. He spoke about the law of karma, he spoke about vegetarianism. The group asked him all kinds of questions. I really enjoyed his anecdotes on Baba Sawan. I hope I can meet him again ... :)

Regarding this NYC friend, she was a student of a Yogi who lived a little ahead of Rishikesh ( India ) who taught the Faqir Chand technique. She moved around the Indian Surat Shabd sects, including Beas, and got initiated by all of them. She went back to the Yogi, but ended up in Ishwar's group in 2005.

Is there an immediate switch in behaviour once you see the Radiant Form ? I wouldn't know. But, I've spent time with Yogis who claim to flow between the sexual and the spiritual. I don't mind the coexistence. Sexual desire is the primal instinct. I don't believe that anything is pristine. I also know someone in London who had migraines after what she described as " a star bursting at the third eye " ... this is the stage right before you see the Radiant Form. That's where her meditation ended and she now says it could've been a hallucination.
( I can't divulge more details here. )

I'm a skeptic of Surat Shabd Yog with no direct experience of any astral region. What I do believe in is the here and now. Keep doing the right thing in this life and should there be an after life, you'll be just fine.

[shiv shinde]

pdf above states -The Y in GYS is supposed to stand for Yuvraj, some people familiar with the group say, while G and S are initials which could suit multiple actors in this saga.

radha soami ji......
journalist is indirectly saying truth.
G for Gurinder who is Guru
Y for Yuvraj who is left hand also called Mithuu
S for Sunil Godhwani right hand

all these people are full fraud. fooling poor sangat.
please post more articles.
mr.brian thank you.

[Karl]

@Bombay Blonde,

I see. Atleast in most of his Youtube videos he speaks about regions ... Plus he is self appointed, just like Kirpal. Good thing is he doesn't make up stories like Kirpal to support his case.
If one wants to know about history of the Dera and Beas masters ... he is the one has had close contact with the Beas Gurus.
There is more to be said. But we can have a more candid conversation on an email maybe?

[Karl]

@Bombay Blonde,

Where and when did you meet him? He is trying to setup an ashram in Wisconsin but I heard he is short of funds...

[Bombay Blonde]

@ Karl : Email, better. This isn't an Ishwar thread and shouldn't be viewed as marketing propoganda ! Many RSSB sympathisers lurking here with their microscopes ready to call out " Ishwar Puri plant ! Ishwar Puri plant ! " They'll go berserk and I'll just end up stepping out character to shoo them away. I'm actually done discussing Sant Mat, all the Mats of Surat Shabd Yog boil down to regions - and regions, in my understanding, don't exist.

I've heard that Ishwar talks about the regions, but he didn't discuss any of that in the meeting I was present in. I have no idea of the Wisconsin ashram. I just know a dozen followers who moved from Beas to Ishwar, they seem happier because they can meet Ishwar easily and he answers their questions in great detail.

I'm not against the idea of self appointment, what I'm against is family lineage. No one family can be the custodian of Anything in human form, forget God. If I ever find myself spiritually lonely, I'll call upon some Baba sitting under a tree and offer him some smoky malt. Presently, I don't feel the need to go faith shopping.

[Karl]

@Bombay Blonde,

My email for private discussion on Beas/Other Gurus: [email protected]

[Spence Tepper]

Hi Dungeoness
It was always smaller than measurable mass, but scientists are just figuring it out.

All matter and light are associated with time. To be at a point of zero, there can actually be no mass or even potential in the form of energy

Mathematically, zero. But not actually zero, just zero in this place. Dark matter crossing over is a nice way to explain it.

Like popcorn. When it happens what's inside is now here. POP! ;)

[Juan]

Tucson:
-Does it appear that most GSD followers are still in denial or are there significant numbers who have accepted what is going on as truth and are packing their bags either literally or figuratively?

---My guess, what is considered as wrongdoing in the west is not going to have any effect on the followers in India, nor in the donations. There could be a slight downfall in the donations because of the economic slowdown.
There isn't any other sect prepared to compete RSSB at the moment, and people if they leave one Guru desperately need another Guru.
Everything is going to continue as usual, more followers, more initiations.

[AJ]

@ Karl
Like BB, I don't want to go too much into the Ishwar discussion on this forum.

Thanks for sharing some interesting points.

Just some food for thought -
1. "Plus he is self appointed, just like Kirpal."
Who appointed Soamiji or Kabir or Guru Nanak or Jesus or for that matter Jaimal? Do we have any record on Jaimal's appointment?
2. Ishwar doesn't claim that he is a Master. He always talks of himself as a co-traveller on the Sant Mat Path.
3. Do you believe that the "will" that appointed Jagat Singh is the way for a PLM to get authority? So, since Guru Gobind Singh, assuming he was a PLM in the line of Guru Nanak, didn't give any written wills and people claim that he appointed the Granth as the Guru, should we assume that the line of PLMs ended with the Granth, which is the now the PLM, and no one else can be called a PLM after that, including Soamiji?
4. Do you believe all the information coming from an organization (RSSB or any other organization)? What will an organization do to a person who is seen as a potential threat? Probably speaks better than even the leader of that organization.
5. I know from reliable sources that GSD goes and meets Ishwar Puri in Chicago whenever GSD visits Chicago. Why does he do that? What does it mean for Ishwar Puri? Should it be seen as a negative for Ishwar Puri that Ishwar meets GSD, given the current affairs? Should it be seen as a negative for GSD that he meets a person who was purportedly thrown out by his organization?
6. Ishwar in the 60s and 70s was a top shot bureaucrat in the Punjab Government ended up being the chief secretary of Punjab (the most powerful bureaucrat in Punjab). He could have any woman he wanted and in an absolute clandestine manner. Did he really need to go woman hunting in Satsangs?

@BB,
I wish I could write like you. You impress me with your eloquence.

[s*]

Ishwar Puri is a nephew of Janak Puri who was a friend of Maharaji Charan Singh.
Janak Puri traveled to the west with maharaji and gave satsangs also.