Advice for RSSB believers about how to deal with news about their guru

Yesterday this comment was left on a Church of the Churchless post, "Great BusinessToday video about RSSB guru and Singh brothers." The commenter wondered how to break the news about Gurinder Singh Dhillon's financial misdeeds to Radha Soami Satsang Beas (RSSB) devotees who had put a lot of faith in their guru.

Dear Brian Thanks for your blog and exposing the truths!! It is really sad to learn all the truths of recent events. I had a feeling somethiing is corrupt but it still came as a shock when my intuition was confirmed with facts.

I am not part of Sant mat myself but do know people that I love that is. They don’t know yet and I just don’t have the heart to break this news. I can just imagine that if your whole belief system was based on the idea of a perfect living master and to found out he is not so perfect after all, will pull the rug underneath you.

Especially this path’s standards are so high in terms of diet and moral life. How do you break such news to somebody you love while you know their world will be shattered? How have other Satsangis took the news? Is it best to just keep quiet and wait till truth be revealed? Ruth

Ruth asked some good questions.

Since I was a member of RSSB for 35 years, and embraced the Sant Mat teachings for almost all of that time before I stopped believing in them, I've had to deal with the same difficult process of breaking away from a spiritual philosophy that used to mean so much to me.

All I can do is suggest the following advice, which I've shared in a "laundry list" form -- because everybody is different, and I want to give people a variety of ways to deal with disillusionment in a spiritual path or religious dogma. So I'm going to list these ideas as they come to me, without trying to arrange them in a particular fashion.

(1) Truth, Sat in an Indian language, has to be our primary concern. Without truth, we're lost in a maze of falsehoods. So whenever truths are revealed about a guru, master, religious leader, or whoever, those truths should be embraced, not pushed away.

(2) Truths can be painful. But the pain of living a lie, or living in illusion, is greater. Yes, fantasies can be fun. But eventually fantasies are revealed to be much less substantial than truth, since truth always wins out in the end. Why? Because reality is hugely more powerful than illusion.

(3) This is one of my all-time favorite sayings. When I used to give talks at RSSB meetings (satsangs), I'd often cite this quote from Philip K. Dick: "Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away." So if a spiritual or religious belief is given up, nothing is lost, because reality is beyond beliefs.

(4) When we expect someone to be perfect, we're bound to be disappointed. So don't expect perfection. Not of your spouse, friend, relative, co-worker, boss, political figure, or... a guru. Everybody makes mistakes. Some are innocent mistakes. Some are willful mistakes. Regardless, expect imperfection, not perfection.

(5) Taoism, which I'm drawn to as a philosophy, says that the world is made up of yin and yang, light and darkness, positive and negative, substantial and insubstantial, embracing and rejecting, and so on. Opposites are what make the world go 'round. If we welcome only one side of a pair of opposites, we're ignoring a big part of reality.

(6) Often people think, "If such-and-such happened, my life wouldn't be worth living." But usually, when that thing does happen, life is still very much worth living. We humans are resilient creatures. Don't underestimate your capacity to adapt to a difficult situation, and then move on from there.

(7) It's natural to want to feel special, which includes being part of a special group, one especially favored or beloved by God. However, what if God, or the cosmos, actually doesn't play favorites? What if it doesn't matter whether someone believes in this or that, but simply does their best to be a good human being? (As you can guess, this is how I consider reality operates.)

(8) Consider: out of all the religions, spiritual paths, and mystical teachings in the world, what is the chance that you have come across the Only One that is objectively true? Very small, right? Yet almost every believer feels that they have found that Only One. Isn't this more than a little egotistical or self-centered? 

(9) What people often find most satisfying about a religion or form of spirituality isn't so much the concepts that make up that teaching, but the good feeling they have from being part of a group that accepts them, welcomes them, supports them. Yet it is possible to have that same good feeling after someone leaves a certain group, because there are countless groups that accept, welcome, and support.

(10) Think about how many changes have occurred in your life. Most likely you've changed homes, friends, jobs, cars, lovers, pets, hairstyles, clothes, sports, and so much else. So it isn't strange that people also change their religion, spiritual path, or mystic teaching. This is normal.

(11) Doubts also are normal. Often people who belong to a certain religion or spiritual group wrongly believe that everybody else in the group but them has perfect faith, because usually expressing doubts isn't welcomed. Believe me, almost everyone has doubts, whether they admit this or not.

(12) Trust yourself. If you trusted yourself when you decided to join a religion or form of spirituality, also trust yourself if you decide to leave it. Don't be led astray by a group's teaching that leaving it will bring horrible consequences, such as a nasty afterlife. Almost every group has ways to keep members from leaving. Know that you are stronger than those ways.

(In case you're wondering, yes, this 1976 cartoon really was drawn by Charles Schulz. Read the comments on that post.)

Comments

[Bombay Blonde]

@ AJ

I may end up chuckling at what I write, the run-around-the-mulberry-bush results of some practicing and academic detours into traditional Sant Mat, Shaktic Philosophy and half a dozen other Indian esoteric mystical schools that center around the eye center and the regions beyond looks something like this from my window that has views to the London Eye and possibly, a Sach Khand that is found in the reality of a star studded sky, a shot of whiskey and Bob Marley playing " One Love " ...

( 1 ) ... 99.9 percent of Gurus are subpar riddhi-siddhi magicians. Their " magical " prowess gradually declines or suddenly disappears with overusage or misuse. But, even the first cut of magic-wand delivery is enough to keep the Guru in an exalted popularity and the mere peddling of past " miracles " can keep a sect afloat for decades. The Gurus of archetypal Indian cults are energy vampires that attract their disciples based on the promise of an afterlife. This is the last place to look for a PLM, you'll find fakes in this category.

Then there are the intellectual masturbators of modern mysticism - the English speaking bearded Babas who entertain us with their witty takes on how to deal with stress. These guys are harmless, I like them. I think of them as spiritual masseuses. They dress traditional and discuss philosophy with a high quotient of spiritual hipness.

...... 0.1 percent is a rarity. He will belong to an unorganised commune ( if at all ) and the relationship with such a being will not be that of " Gurubhakti " but one that will transport you to the threshold of your higher self and from there on you’ll be guided till you reach the high-tea table of Sat Pursh … who, in all his wondrous splendor, will be waiting for you and will offer you cucumber sandwiches and English breakfast tea. He’ll walk you around Sat Lok, you can marvel at the twin peaks ( the inaccessible Agam and invisible Alakh ) and you can have a glass of wine as you soak in the ocean of eternal love, also known as Anami. An imperfect PLM ( ! ) cannot take you beyond Bhanwar Gupha. You may be lucky to get past Maha Sunn ( Bhav Saagar ) where you’ll experience the gradual ascension of the sound current, but the whirling darkness of the tunnel of Bhanwar Gupha will test your PLM. You'll most likely get there and realize you need another travel companion. This region can create mental imbalances if not navigated properly. That's why the practice of Surat Shabd Yog requires access to the teacher.

( 2 ) Reminds me of the three utterly interesting and utterly unrealised women who once had a conversation with Baba Sawan. This is folklore that is rooted in the ethics of service as a means to salvation. These three ladies were tirelessly serving the Great Master and he was so happy with them that he told them that sometimes serving a PLM is enough to go to Sach Khand. His " MAUJ " is everything. You can reach nowhere in your meditation, and yet, if He is happy with you, He’ll take you Home. This is also true of other life forms who accidentally come in contact with a PLM. A Param Sant can look at a buffalo and it can die the next day and be free from the wheel of Chaurasi. Like Charan’s famous cockroach, who got crushed under his foot and went straight to Sach Khand. PLMs are perfect in every way and are beyond the temptations of the mind. Kaal is just a helpless butler.

( 3 ) My Aunt still insists that Charan helped her with her bags when she almost missed a train. I'm convinced it was a projection. It's been scientifically proven that penal gland seizures can be induced by tapasyas. Meditation is just one form of tapasya. There are several fables of PLMs creating multiple doppelgangers of themselves and in some cases, they don’t leave. It can sound eerie but the PLM is capable of showing up anytime, anywhere. They travel inter-region and at times are present in different places at one given time.

( 4 ) If a PLM does appoint another PLM then he has to be perfect. Julian Johnson would agree.

( 5 ) I think that would be the anomaly, unless the family member has been a close disciple and has shown signs of spiritual enlightenment from a very young age. The Sikh and Vedic texts point to exceptionally gifted children who were either the sons of the Gurus or their most accomplished disciples. The aspect of close physical proximity ( Jagat-Sawan, Kirpal-Sawan ) is all too necessary when it comes to lineage. The result of absolute enlightenment can also be absolute vice, but not in Sant Mat traditions. A Sant Mat PLM is the perfect, all merciful Param Sant. Baba Sawan bled on his bed for days as he took on the karmas of his Sangat in the partition of 1947.

( 6 ) The PLM will come to you. The PLM will be bereft of all worldly adornments. The PLM will have the elixir of Anhad Shabd running through his veins. The PLM will not call himself a PLM, he will speak to you in riddles.

( 7 ) We emote from the heart and are warned from the gut. The subconscious mind is always guiding emotion and intuition. If you have reached a stage in your meditation where consciousness has revealed itself, you will be able to distinguish between karma and free will. On a more tangible plane, the answers will lie in an increased level of clarity, a fierce fearlessness of being and a strong conviction to live from the core of your truths. In Sant Mat terms, you will revel in your meditation with no material or physical desires.

Any guesses who the three women were, AJ ?
( They were Bibi Ralli, Bibi Lajjo, Bibi Rakkhi. I call them Charlie's Angles. )

[tucson]

Spence wrote:

"As for question 5, Maharaji didn't appoint Gurindar to be a perfect Master.
He appointed him to continue the work as the organization's head, to initiate people into the teachings of the Spirit."

--Same with Charan by Jagat and Jagat by Sawan and Sawan by Seth Shiv. And who appointed Seth Shiv? He appears to be a heretic associated with a couple of Radha Soami sects who went off to do his own thing in the hyena infested ravines near Beas with his long hair tied to an overhead bar so he wouldn't fall asleep while meditating. Who is the authority for his perfection? A couple of toe sucking bibis? They did suck his toes you know. Or so they say.

Who knows who is a perfect master or not? How can that even be determined? How do we know who knows? How would they know anyway? If they say they know, do they?

They say meditate and find out. Well, maybe you get to the end of life and you still don't know despite decades of meditation. What then? Next life maybe? How do we know there is a next life? What is it exactly that has a next life? What is its shape, form, attribute and color? Does it remember how to make pancakes and tie its shoes? What is it that makes it what it is? Where is it before it gets a next life? How do we know that place is real? Does it wait in a sort of celestial couch while its new seed form is incubating? Where is that place of incubation? How does it even exist in the first place? Why? How do we know Sat Purush is God? Maybe it is something else? Maybe there is a sixth region Sat Purush doesn't know about because Kal tricked him and it turns out Kal is the real deal?

Of course this is silly. Obviously the master is a perfect master. It's plain as day. They said he was perfect and there are thousands of people sitting there worshiping what they have been told is perfect. They all must know. They can't all be delusional. Some of them must know even though we don't know if they do. It's all perfectly reasonable and rational. It's a science. Right?

[AJ]

@BB
Thanks for an elaborate response.

“99.9 percent of Gurus are subpar riddhi-siddhi magicians”
The 99.9 % of these Gurus are bringing the path to disrepute. People are now questioning the path itself because of these Masters probably fulfilling the prediction of Anurag Sagar that for every PLM there are a X number of non-Perfect Masters deluding the seekers.

“If a PLM does appoint another PLM then he has to be perfect.”
There are a couple of ifs in this situation here – If the appointing Master is a PLM and if the appointed Master is a PLM. Perhaps, PLMs don’t even appoint PLMs and appoint non-Perfect Masters to help with the given needs of a location (materialistic or otherwise)

“It can sound eerie but the PLM is capable of showing up anytime, anywhere.”
I would agree if a Master is a PLM he is capable of showing up anytime, anywhere. But is that aspect restricted to PLMs or can it apply to lower Masters (Astral/Causal)?. If so, then bilocation cannot be used a proof that the Master is a PLM. There are many Sant Mat branches/lineages that use this “fact” to claim their Master is a PLM. There are also stories of a Master’s face changing to the previous Master’s face and that is also used to validate the perfectness of a successor. I wonder if this is also an acquired power at Astral/Causal plane and anyone who has reached that plane can exhibit this power. (There are stories of Sathya Sai showing Guru Nanak in the Palm of his Hand and thus claiming that he was the God who had sent Guru Nanak to serve the people)

“They were Bibi Ralli, Bibi Lajjo, Bibi Rakkhi. I call them Charlie's Angles.”
There are stories that one of those Bibis (Bibi Rakkhi I believe) has taken re-birth in America. Obviously, this stands to be validated.

[AJ]

@spence

It would be great if you can please respond to my questions in a previous post :)

[Jesse]

"There are also stories of a Master’s face changing to the previous Master’s face and that is also used to validate the perfectness of a successor."

"There are stories of Sathya Sai showing Guru Nanak in the Palm of his Hand "

These "proofs" are ridiculous and I feel shame that I was ever so naive to consider the game of gurus as something serious or worth thinking about. As I said to someone else, it's appeals to authority upon appeals to authority.

On this blog 1000 people have asked the same questions, but nobody, including Manjit who is the smartest man alive, can tell how all the contradictory miracles are all simultaneously true. If we use the signs you have accepted as sufficient for proof, then convicted rapists, dogs, printed pictures, and statues are all the highest level of god. All those things have been seen in someones hand, in a visionary dream, during meditation or in the sky.

I worship dog picture now.

[AJ]

@Jesse

:)

do you worship the dog picture with full "faith"? :)

[AJ]

My personal belief is that common sense should be an important tool in the "spiritual" path.

If a Guru says jump into a well, one should ask the Guru to demonstrate it first and then offer to follow the Guru.

[Tim Rimmer]

Hi Bombay B re Sept 20th

Good mix of the practical and the so-called ‘esoteric’. I liked what you wrote in point 7 - ‘If you have reached a stage in your meditation where consciousness has revealed itself, you will be able to distinguish between karma and free will’. A pointer to the truth of things in my view. I cannot recall one part of a Sant Mat Book or Guru conversation that said it like this. Expansion/unfolding of consciousness results in an increasingly smaller amount of this so called ‘I’ upon which karma and free-will act. Clarity of thought would indicate that ‘karma’ and belief in karma acts within the mental sphere, hence the more this aspect of our ‘being’ is sorted, the less effect so-called karma will have and it can no longer be used as an excuse for behaviour. That’s how I see it.
Mind you having your toe sucked by an old Bibi, at the right angle, resulting in a seizure of the penal gland sounds a bit like nasty karma to me - or is it just a weird kundalini effect? :-)

[Dungeness]

Who knows who is a perfect master or not? How can that even be determined? How do we know who knows? How would they know anyway? If they say they know, do they?

They say meditate and find out...

Everyone wants an assurance he isn't being scammed by a
mystic. Gimme evidence, testimonies, awards, a "moon rock"
from a mystic's inner journey should cap it.

But even then doubt would creep it. What if the testimonies
and awards are forgeries, the moon rock from a curio shop?
What if there are reports the Guru is a shady character?

The scandal sheets of the times floated stories of hanky
panky between Great Master and his three bibi's. Gurinder
is clearly a money-grubbing, heartless, unfit Guru in the
minds of many. You'll have to weigh all that too.

The only assurances of mystic claims will be your research,
the evidenciary markers you follow and examine, what you
confirm experientially, stuff you actully see and hear
inside that is its own proof, Again on your own.

If that journey seems fraught with danger, the promises
hollow, hints of bad behavior likely, or your intuition
tells you run away fast, do it.

Hopefully though you won't want to get lost in endless
doubt and debate, conflate every press report with the
truth, wage jihads challenging the authenticity of all
mystic experience, and conclude the effort to find the
truth inside is a lost cause..

[Dungeness]

Who knows who is a perfect master or not? How can that even be determined? How do we know who knows? How would they know anyway? If they say they know, do they?

They say meditate and find out...

Everyone wants an assurance he isn't being scammed by a
mystic. Gimme evidence, testimonies, awards, a "moon rock"
from a mystic's inner journey should cap it.

But even then doubt would creep it. What if the testimonies
and awards are forgeries, the moon rock from a curio shop?
What if there are reports the Guru is a shady character?

The scandal sheets of the times floated stories of hanky
panky between Great Master and his three bibi's. Gurinder
is clearly a money-grubbing, heartless, unfit Guru in the
minds of many. You'll have to weigh all that too.

The only assurances of mystic claims will be your research,
the evidenciary markers you follow and examine, what you
confirm experientially, stuff you actully see and hear
inside that is its own proof, Again on your own.

If that journey seems fraught with danger, the promises
hollow, hints of bad behavior likely, or your intuition
tells you run away fast, do it.

Hopefully though you won't want to get lost in endless
doubt and debate, conflate every press report with the
truth, wage jihads challenging the authenticity of all
mystic experience, and conclude the effort to find the
truth inside is a lost cause..

[AJ]

@Dungeness

What happens if you try sincerely for many years and you are unable to find the evidenciary markers with your research. You don't see or hear inside (or hear what can be called physical sounds and mistake it for shabad and thus make no real progress)? When should one give up or consider a different Master because the current Master is not delivering? How long should be given for this experiment before concluding it as a failure? What should be the next step? Look for another Master?

[Jesse]

What happens if your inner experiences aren't worth shit? Why is inner experience valuable especially considering the fact that all so-called mystics are competitive and make exclusive claims about the efficacy of their sounds and visions?

[Mr. Curious]

Re: "There are also stories of a Master’s face changing to the previous Master’s face and that is also used to validate the perfectness of a successor."

I'm a former Thakar initiate. During a Satsang he gave in Oregon, I saw his face morph into Kirpal's. I shared this incident with a friend sitting next to me, who told me this was a very special thing to see and to keep quiet about it (lest my ego expand).

Another person on this blog named Arjuna shared a similar face-morph story with re: to Gurindar.

Plus, I've heard other people tell similar stories about their gurus. [I come from a culture where practically every family has a guru.]

Does this mean A) all of these gurus are PLMs OR B) these kinds of vision are self-generated through faith and other factors?

My hunch (can't say for sure) is B. That doesn't take away from the subjective value, meaning or power of these experiences, just attributes a different source to them.

A side note re: Thakar's supposed PLM status:

Thakar reportedly sexually misbehaved in the 80s (the topic was discussed on this blog by David Lane and others) so he definitely had human flaws. Before he passed away, he appointed Sant Baljit Singh as successor. Sant Baljit Singh, in turn, appointed a female co-Master named Ma who later turned on him and started to lure his initiates away. Mass confusion ensued. This further put doubt on Thakar's PLMs claims. Shouldn't he have seen all that coming? All this PLM business is distraction, more trouble than its worth IMO....

[Dungeness]

What happens if you try sincerely for many years and you are unable to find the evidenciary markers with your research. You don't see or hear inside (or hear what can be called physical sounds and mistake it for shabad and thus make no real progress)? When should one give up or consider a different Master because the current Master is not delivering? How long should be given for this experiment before concluding it as a failure? What should be the next step? Look for another Master?

What happens if your inner experiences aren't worth shit?

I can't presume to know the answers to any of these legitimate
questions. Personally, I'd go straight to Master for answers - inside
or outside. I'd ask the Master, with all due respect to explain what
the hell is going on and you'd very much appreciate clear,
non-dogmatic responses. Any legit guru will have a sense of
humor. What is there to lose?

[Spence Tepper]

Hi AJ
Sorry for the delay. I'm at a company thing and will be able to get to your questions tomorrow evening...
Except the first... Sat Bachan chapter 1 section 3....'All teachers started towards the real abode but not all of them reached it..
They naturally looked upon those stages as the source of the Soul and the lord of those regions as the lord.... This they taught this to their disciples..
'

[AJ]

@ Spence

Thanks! Really appreciate it!

[AJ]

@ Mr Curious

I am aware of STS, SBS and Maa (I live in California and there are many STS initiates here)

I know somebody, here in California, who say the same phenomenon in Lighthouse Center Oregon (In Brian Hines Backyard :)

Did this happen in 2003 on Sant Kirpal Singh's birthday? If it was, then it is very interesting because this person also was there and he saw the morphing on the same day. Now, that would rule out self-generated morphing. It is probably more of a real phenomenon in that case. It is a different issue if it reflects on the Perfectness of the Master. (Perhaps a power acquired at the Astral/Causal level)

Aside from the possibility that STS and SBS both are not PLMs, there is a possibility that STS was a PLM and SBS was not (despite all the crying that STS did while declaring SBS as the next PLM - at least that is what most of the STS initiates here in California feel). It is possible that PLMs deliberately appoint non-PLMs for whatever reason (the successors requesting the PLM to appoint him or based on the needs of the followers - They already have the radiant form of the PLM after all, if there is such a thing, and the successor can take care of their material/lower plane needs. I am just speculating here)

Coincidentally, an STS Initiation Rep was calling me while I was typing this up.

[AJ]

@ Dungeness

Thank you for your response.
It should work in some cases but probably wouldn't in the case where the Master is not physically (has too many followers - in the million+ - and has no time to meet individuals) or internally accessible.

[Jesse]

"Any legit guru will have a sense of humor."

Who comes up with these rules?

Historically it's certainly not the case. A lot of supposed gurus were completely abusive dicks. Marpa beat his wife and Milarepa and he's considered one of the greatest saints of Tibet.

[Mr. Curious]

@AJ

I don't recall the exact date, but it's possible. I went to the STS retreat in Oregon every summer from 1996 to 2005. [After he passed, I went to 1 SBS retreat.]

If the experience did occur on Kirpal Singh's birthday, that would make sense. It could very well be we were expecting or hoping for a SKS manifestation, and our mind projected what we desired.

Again, I don't discount the possibility of a supernatural / divine occurrence, but it's important to explore possible natural explanations first.

btw, I searched the web for face-morphing stories in general and there is quite a rich body of content (no research, primarily personal stories). The part of our brain that recognizes faces (and assigns faces to animate and inanimate objects alike - the moon, rock formations, bread, etc.) is a major part of our evolutionary and spiritual history and should definitely be explored more. :-)

[Mr. Curious]

The movie, Kumare, is a very thought-provoking and funny exploration of the Guru phenomenon. Definitely worth a watch...

http://kumaremovie.com/

An Indian man impersonates a Guru and wins a following. Even though he's not a legitimate Guru, several of his followers have experiences and enjoy benefits. After he tells them the truth, which he does with difficulty because at this point he's started to care about them, many still can't accept that he's not a legit Guru.

if you watch it, let us know what you think!

Interesting stuff...

[AJ]

@ Mr. Curious

It was actually Sant Kirpal Singh’s death anniversary 21st August 2003. It was the first time STS celebrated it outside India.

I don’t know about brain projecting what we desire. I seem to have failed to project Baba Sawan Singh despite desperately trying for a decade (never experience bi location, face morphing or any other related phenomenon). Perhaps, my brain is wired differently or perhaps I was not in touch with the radiance of a living Baba Sawan Singh. Jury is still out on that one.

STS ministry was an interesting case and a unique one –
1. There were sexual allegations (His Organization dismissed these allegations as frivolous and more of a case of mentally unstable women alleging. It was supposed to be an attack of the negative power – Universal Mind or Kal – trying to sway souls away from the PLM. Perhaps this is what is happening to GSD???). But I also happened to speak with a couple of his initiates who had “sexual” encounter with him. One was kissed on the lips by him. She claims that the kiss felt asexual and it actually fixed her sexual desire. Another had a similar encounter and also claimed that STS had helped her with her sexual karma. Interesting stuff.

2. He recruited an Army of Initiation Representatives who initiated massive numbers (close to 2 million) without any waiting period for initiation. Meat and other traditional requirements were waived.

3. STS bind folded infants. It was claimed that infants lose their connections to the inner light as they open their eyes and get exposed to external light. This was controversial and was stopped after a huge public outcry.

4. STS predicted change of consciousness would happen/Golden Age will arrive soon (2 or 3 times). STS had raised an army of meditation children (children left at his Ashram by followers or people who could not afford to raise them and were taught to meditate for longs hours – 10+) that would help usher in the Golden Age. SBS was expected to usher in this change of consciousness. Nothing has happened so far.

5. MOST INTERESTING was the case of possession. STS ministry was known for his effort to treat entity cases – disembodied souls possessing a human body – by initiating them. Apparently, the person concerned had done Reiki/Psychic healing and thus invited the disembodied soul to possess the person’s body. The behavior of the initiated person would change when the entity/possessing soul got active. The person screamed and howled and tried to attack STS. Oral/External recitation of Simran was done to help these possessed people. Sound was recommended. I know of an initiate who claims that he had the entity problem and was cured by listening to the sound for a prolong period.

6. Another interesting aspect was the very strong emphasis on sound current. STS had claimed that in this dark age, Simran was rendered ineffective and best meditation was listening to the sound (100% sound meditation or bhajan was recommended. Prior to that he changed the ratio of Simran to sound to 1:2 – 1 hr Simran and 2 hour Sound – Sant Kirpal Singh used to emphasis 50% Simran and 50% sound. Baba sawan Singh had recommended 2 hrs of Simran and 30 minutes of bhajan). The initiates would mostly plug their right ear (most keeping the left ear unplugged in the fear that they might hear the left side sound of Kal) and try to listen to the sound from the right side only. I wonder if anyone progressed beyond the tinnitus induced by this practice or the physical sounds heard by plugging the ear. It would be nice to know if any STS initiates heard the pulling sounds (Bell and higher)

7. Negative Power was emphasized a lot. There was a constant war between Negative Power (Kal) and STS. Some reports of STS’ blood spilled in these battles.

8. Someone told me that a busload of advanced Beas initiates were sent to STS for further initiation in the Chandigarh area. In some cases, Maharaj Charan Singh told people to go get initiated by Sant Thakar Singh.

Did I miss something?

[Moony]

Today I attended baba ji's satsang. There was no effect of negative news. Number of people was much more than last time.
Moony

[[email protected]]

Dear Loved Initiated

Please keep in mind
that we are placed on this planet
to find out about our
own character

more important than the karma rather automatic issue

As for Gurinder
We see HIM smiling in all Splendor 24/7 in our inside

together with HIS SONG

and we are initiated half a century ago

Strange experience to be exclusively banned/deleted constantly
in spite of Br's first amendment black

7.77

( see archive.org)

[Bombay Blonde]

Glad that the discussion has moved into a broader spectrum. Interestingly, the mantra remains the same across all these branches. I'd say Sant Mat per se is in shambles. All of it. Ishwar seems like the last sane custodian of the final vestiges and I like the fact that he's personally meeting with his initiates, there is access to the teacher.

@ AJ : I was only speaking from my understanding of what Sant Mat is, I don't believe in any of it. It's important to keep pointing at the origins of Sant Mat ( Faqir Chand, Shiv Dayal ) and RSSB titles ( Path Of The Masters etc. ) as many believers seem to have a compromised idea of what a PLM should be. The new normal is a departure from the days of Charan. I'm uncertain whether Charan was perfect, but there was an air of contentment around.

@ Tim : Exactly. If there cannot be any demonstrable evidence of initiates / Satsangis traversing the higher planes, the resulting higher consciousness should at least be tangible in how they respond to life. Ascension into the astral should have a great impact on behaviour, yes. It's something on the lines of starting a health regime - you may eat and exercise in secrecy, but the physical body will gradually show visible results. I have met all kinds of Satsangis and all of them were who they were by virtue or vice of their own character. It would be impossible to progress into a deeper understanding on one hand and remain completely unchanged on the other. Impossible.

@ AJ : An asexual kiss that fixes sexual desire ? That's quite something, and quite gross. The rest of it is bat shit crazy, thank you for sharing. Makes me wonder where do human beings really begin to lose it ?

What's the point of inflection ?

On another note, a few have pointed at Sawan's toe sucking fetish. It's widely believed that a PLM could decrease or even wipeout karmic load in the strangest of ways. " Veda Paar " or the concept of overcoming is the underlying theme not just in Sant Mat, but also in Sikhism and other religions. It's a snare for the weak.

[Spence Tepper]

Hi AJ
Reviewed your questions again this morning. And the same answer keeps conning to me. And that is that to answer these questions about the status of Baba Ji would be my conjecture. It wouldn't be fact.

The facts externally are as presented. Embezzlement. Fraud.
The facts internally depend upon each of us individually.

Maharaji told a women not to call him God, that this was self - deception until she had seen it for herself within.

But here you see people want to use the teachings to make that determination, or to say Maharaji could not have been wrong. These are all justifications, and in fact self deceptions. They cannot substitute for fact, either external or internal.

My own experience is both. I am witness to the reality (which could be subjective, of the power of Shabd, the regions and even Baba Ji's power). But I am also now aware of the facts reported and in court documents of Baba Ji's actions in dealing with other people's money, and influence in placing close relatives, wife included, into leadership roles of interlinked companies forming a web of governance and conflict of interest issues.

Beyond that each individual must decide for themselves what to believe, and that should be based upon whatever facts, internally or externally, or both, they obtain.

Conjecture just leads to endless and fruitless debate and can never substitute for fact and experience.

Can we, at this level, be manipulated into believing things that aren't true?

Yes. Therefore think and decide. But try to use fact and experience over theory, emotion and opinion. Better chance of avoiding delusion.

[Mr. Curious]

Hi AJ,

Thanks for reminding me of those aspects of STS' ministry.

1. Re: asexual kisses, interesting stuff. I've never heard these accounts. I'm more familiar with the public media exposes that paint these events in a much different light. Several women on record complained of very sexual advances. In 1984, STS sent an apology letter to the Sangat to address the rumors and explain that the "negative power had been successful in attacking his lower self" or some such. I have seen the letter first hand.

2. Re: giving widespread initiations with no waiting period and waived requirements, this is very true. Had there been any requirements, I would never have done it. I took initiation at the suggestion of a friend purely out of curiosity since STS was giving initiation only 5 minutes away from my home in the NY/NJ area. The initiation experience did indeed produce light, sound and bliss. So strong, in fact, that I mistakenly drove 30 minutes in the wrong direction after Satsang.

3. Re: blindfolding infants, this sounds like a VERY bad idea. Glad they reversed track on this.

4. Re: the meditation children and the predicted big world change, yes we are still waiting, lol. I did, however, once own a CD of the meditation children singing. It was a very uplifting, meditative CD to listen to. [STS said one could listen to that and get a similar effect as meditation.]

5. Re: entity cases, I've seen these first hand. In the 90's, the "possessed" used to sit in the back of the Satsang hall and go crazy, yell and curse (like Turrets sufferers) every time STS took the stage. A very strange experience. Tellingly, it seems to only be the strong believers who get possessed by such entities.

6. Re: STS' emphasis on sound, very true. Re: my own experiences, here's what I've experienced / seen first hand (during intensive meditation first 6 months after initiation). Bliss, multi-colored clouds of lights, being able to "watch" thoughts, stars, the moon, pulling up sounds (high pitched), brief moments of sensory current inversion, seeing a reflection of my face as if in a dark pool of water. Outside of meditation, the face morph experience as well as feeling like any question I have in my heart is addressed during satsang. Others with diff masters report similar experiences.

7. Yes, Kal was emphasized a lot. Of course, any thought you had that was against the path was from Kal. Typical cult stuff.

8. Re: Charan telling advanced initiates to get initiated by STS, this is news to me. We know 777 doesn't agree per his comment below!

--
""".Maharaj Charan Singh told people to go get initiated by Sant Thakar Singh. """

A unbelievable Blatant Lie

All Saints outside RSSB are imposters

777
---

777's comment further reminds me that blind belief and this Sant Mat stuff (at least the Guru parts) is not something I want in my life.

EVERY religious person on this planet, like 777, thinks *they* have the right path and every one else is wrong. This is leading to a very dangerous world.

btw, I still have friends, many of them highly educated (scientists, etc.), who hold onto their Guru myths. Interesting how this cult stuff can still attract highly educated classes both in the US and India. To me, that just shows there's something humans need that we're not getting out of capitalism / society these days. It's not proof of the Guru's legitimacy.

Thanks again AJ. Interesting convo.

On a side note, please check out the documentary "Kumare" if you haven't already. It speaks to the Guru phenomenon very well (in a funny, thought provoking way). People with "fake" gurus can indeed have very real experiences, it seems...

[Appreciative Reader]

Quote Mr Curious : The initiation experience did indeed produce light, sound and bliss. So strong, in fact, that I mistakenly drove 30 minutes in the wrong direction after Satsang.

Wow, really? I mean, this is a first-person "this happened to me" statement, as opposed to a third-person "so and so told me about such and such having this kind of an experience".

And you seem to be a regular sort of person, not someone steeped in years and decades of "practice" (that is, not someone who may, in the course of their years and decades of practice, have inadvertently schooled their mind to conjure up some such experience).

Cool!

Anyone come across any explanation, ever -- any rational explanation -- for something like this?

[Mr. Curious]

Hi Appreciative,

Yes, I'd like to think I'm a regular sort of person. ;-)

I had zero Sant Mat conditioning prior to initiation, nor was I expecting anything to happen (consciously anyway). I just wanted an interesting story to share.

After my initiation experience, I decided to spend 1 month in intensive meditation at the Oregon retreat center. [I never really meditated before.]

The blissful experience could have something to do with the pineal gland (stimulated by meditation)? Not sure. The below book (written by a doctor of psychiatry) touches on the origin of mystical / near death experiences...

https://www.amazon.com/DMT-Molecule-Revolutionary-Near-Death-Experiences/dp/0892819278

[Bombay Blonde]

@ 777 : ...... in just the same way an initiate can demonstrate to another that Sach Khand exists.

@ Mr. Curious : " any question I have in my heart is addressed during satsang " ... that's exactly what a family member experienced. What if it's coincidence, being at the right place at the right time with the right questions.

Kumare was stellar. A must watch for anyone who wants to sign up with a Guru.

We seek out our own experiences, voluntary projections are experiences that we like to believe are involuntary. We love the Guru we create and keep tweaking the internal monologue to suit our own narratives.

[Mr. Curious]

@BB: It happened multiple times, but it definitely could have been coincidence.

Some things I experienced (before and after Sant Mat) are easier to explain than others.

At the end of the day, I definitely believe people are able to have elevated / mystical / profound experiences (and that these have real value & meaning for the individual). I just think these are generated by the self and have a neurochemical basis. Perhaps the Sant Mat meditation is one method of many that can be used to release our own natural reserves of psychedelic juices?

In other words, I don't attribute these experiences to the special power of a particular Guru any more. Many people, with or without a Sant Mat Guru, have had similar experiences. But I was grateful to learn a method that can help me still the mind when needed.

[Jesse]

All questions in your heart are addressed? I'm sure none of the questions were really broad and ambiguous, and you totally weren't reading into the vague mystic talks much either.

"Wow, I was wondering what I should do about my loved ones dying of cancer, and like baba said life is hard and shit sucks sometimes, but with perseverance we can overcome all the tough shit and like problems don't last forever! Was it a miracle?"

Next time, try thinking of something that requires even a modicum of specificity and let us know how well your question gets answered.

[AJ]

@ Curious
My STS initiate friends tell me that his initiations and subsequent meditations indicated major “juice”. Not sure, if this qualifies him as a PLM but there were certainly more “mystical” experiences in his group and excitement.

Asexual kisses – happened to a STS initiation rep that I know. Her take is very positive about it. Regarding other sexual charges, A Berkeley Ph.D that I know was very convinced that there was a lot of rumor mongering involved and it helped pique the curiosity of the seekers and thus resulted in more initiations. I have also read the letter written to some German folks in 1984. Interesting stuff, if it is true, as to how Kal operates.

777 mentions
“""".Maharaj Charan Singh told people to go get initiated by Sant Thakar Singh. """
A unbelievable Blatant Lie
All Saints outside RSSB are imposters
777”

This is what the STS initiates say about RSSB. In fact, the entire branch of Sant Kirpal Singh considers RSSB imposters. Of course, each group considers their Master to be a PLM and rest to be frauds. Sounds cultish? Seems to ride on the notion that there is only 1 PLM on this planet and that happens to be their guru.

If Sant Mat is genuine, is it possible that there are more than 1 PLM? And maybe, there are many Masters of different levels?

BTW, this was told by a reliable source who witnessed this event.

@ Curious, I agree with your take on it.
777 also mentioned (I think before his post got deleted) that
Maharaj Charan Singh refused initiation to woman for eating eggs. The woman later disclosed that she was eating pastries.
Is this the litmus test for considering anyone a PLM? Mind reading? There are thousands of mind readers/jytoshis in India who can do the same and they just charge Rs 500 or so and we don’t bow to them and call them Gurus. Point is that this seems to be a “science” which can be acquired. I am sure anyone with practice and some advancement/astral master/causal master can also do it.

Based on my experience with the mind readers, I can safely say that Mind reading is not a necessary and sufficient condition for a person to be considered a PLM.

@ spence Thanks for your take on the issue.

[Mr. Curious]

@Jesse

That'd be tough, because he passed away over a decade ago!

It's all good, we have Google. Most of my specific questions get answered there these days (through the power of long-tail search terms).

[Jesse]

Mr Curious, I thought I experienced a baba miracle once myself. Twice actually. But in retrospect one was just a coincidence and the other me being hopeful, superstitious and seeing things that I wanted to see.

I don't hold it against anyone for having and believing in those experiences but it's a bit sad that I was able to lie to myself.

Then again, there's something wonderful about being in a cult too. It's fun to have those delusions and get wrapped up in the emotions. Like meeting hot chicks and "falling in love" when you're a teenager. It's a mirage but it doesn't cause problems until later.

[AJ]

@BB

"On another note, a few have pointed at Sawan's toe sucking fetish. It's widely believed that a PLM could decrease or even wipeout karmic load in the strangest of ways. " Veda Paar " or the concept of overcoming is the underlying theme not just in Sant Mat, but also in Sikhism and other religions. It's a snare for the weak."

My PLM would have to decrease/wipeout Karma from a distance :). I would rather go through the karma than indulge in some toe sucking. Ew! You grossed me out. Now, this horrendous image is going to bother me in meditations :)

[s*]

No it was not about SawanSingh but about Soamiji’s story.

[Jesse]

AJ, RSSB is small and irrelevant in USA. It owns a negligible amount of property and assets and the threat level is minor so it's doubtful he'd require protection other than what the org hires privately.

There have been assassination attempts on GSD in Europe though so maybe I'm wrong, but I think he'd have to get a lot more famous before he was given government protection.

[AJ]

Regarding how to deal with the news, I wonder if the following model (related to emotional healing) will help:

STAGE 1. Denial
This is the stage when the person thinks, “No, this just cannot be true.”
We’ve probably all said this when faced with terrible news. Denying something is true is a common way of initially dealing with a painful situation.
At first, one may feel totally unable to accept the bad news. In this stage of
denial we might isolate ourselves in an attempt to defend against the reality
of the situation.

Although denial is a normal stage of grief, if we remain in this stage too long
we will be unable to make necessary and important decisions.

STAGE 2. Anger
The next stage is anger. This is the stage in which the person acknowledges
the reality of the situation, but is filled with rage at the loss and thinks,
“This isn’t fair; why did this have to happen to me?” When a loved
one dies, we may be angry at whatever took our loved one’s life, angry at
God, even angry at the loved one for leaving us. Although feeling angry is
normal, we may displace our anger. This means taking anger out on other
people or things. It may feel as if everything and everyone is irritating us
and so we lash out and are completely unaware that this is a manifestation
of our grief. Although displaced anger may serve to distance us from the
pain and reality of the loss, it can create problems in personal relationships,
especially if the people around us do not understand that we are grieving. It
can even lead to legal problems if we physically act out our anger on people
or property.

STAGE 3. Bargaining
The next stage is bargaining. This is a stage that people sometimes go
through when they are facing the loss of their own life or the life of a loved
one. They think “There must be something I can do to change this.”
We may try to make bargains with God by promising to do something difficult
(often something that we are unlikely to be able to do), in exchange for
removing the threat of loss. For example, we might pray, “God, if you take
this pain away, I promise to never even think about using drugs again.”
When feeling powerless, bargaining may provide us with the illusion that we
are actually doing something to help, but as with the previous stage, if we
remain in this stage too long, it can prevent us from coping realistically with
the situation and taking appropriate action.

STAGE 4. Depression
The next stage is depression. In this stage, the reality of the loss has really
“sunk in.” Denial, anger, and bargaining give way to despair, and we think
“I cannot handle this pain and I’m helpless to do anything about it.”
We may attempt to withdraw from the world and to “shut down our circuits”
in an attempt to defend ourselves against the pain of the loss. Although profound sadness in response to loss is normal, it is important not to get stuck
in this stage. As you all know, depression can quickly lead to drug use and
other unhealthy behavior.

STAGE 5. Acceptance
The next stage is acceptance. This is the stage where we move beyond
defending ourselves from the pain of the loss with denial, anger, and depression, and begin to accept reality. We may think “I have experienced a
painful loss, but I can get through it.” When we are in the earlier
stages of grieving, it seems that acceptance is an unattainable goal.
However, it is important to keep in mind that acceptance is neither unattainable nor is it the ultimate goal. Acceptance is not the end of the process, but rather a necessary step that will move you beyond grief to the next stage which is hope.

STAGE 6. Hope
We have reached the final stage—hope—when we reflect upon the loss in
search of personal meaning. In this stage we may think “I am ready to
learn from this important life experience.” As we will discuss later,
finding personal meaning in a loss involves being willing to identify and face
your fears.

https://medicine.yale.edu/spiritualselfschema/training/hhrp/Margolin%20NEG%20Gr%2011_160750_284_19347_v1.pdf

[AJ]

Ironically, the yale site recommends Meditation as a step to deal with a problem whose genesis, in this case, is the meditation path

" Meditation - Meditation is the focusing of attention. Like prayer, meditation
can take different forms. Some people meditate on a single word
or mantra, some chant, some silently become aware of their breathing, or
focus on an object, and some simply focus on the present moment.
Meditation can be done while seated or lying down, or while engaged in
an activity that is repetitive and that limits distractions. By focusing
attention, the meditator becomes relaxed, centered, and is able to tap an
inner source of wisdom."

[Spence Tepper]

Hi AJ
To facilitate transition through these stages (originally Kubler
Ross's 'On Death and Dying' model adapted to life stages by Gail Sheehy in her book 'Passages') you start with an undeniable change that has taken place or is inevitable and out of your control.

Passage through these stages requires a flow of facts that simply must be acknowledged. The death of a relative is such an irrevocable fact.

At this point we have gossip.

And therefore transition will be dependent upon believing it.

That would be the same basis for belief as blind faith.

So we need fact.

We need to raise the standard for truth if anything is to be learned from this. That is the only compensation for the loss of a line of beloved gurus, and the full acceptance of the truth of their character. If we can say 'I learned something. I'm stronger for the experience.'

Some external verification. The same criteria you would apply to internal experience, and amenable to the same critical evaluation.

For example, a little more evidence about the siphoned funds, perhaps that they can be traced to Singapore. Or simply the appointment of Shivindar ad the next Master, who has already been convicted of fraud at Ranbaxy, and lost his job at Fortis and Religare for siphoning funds.

You can say 'I told you so' then. But today, gossip cannot be the rational basis for fact. It may be true, but it is not yet fact.

And it isn't even evidence. But it may help point investigators and journalists to seek facts in the Fortis loans.

Until then, the transition must wait.

When those facts come in, it will be the end of RSSB. It will unravel.

Because Gurindar's fraud will become the fraud of Maharaji, Jagat, Sawan, and Jamal.

How can a perfect Saint appoint a fraud?

They can't. If one is, the entire line was a lie.

Let's hope some different facts come to light.

But truth doesn't take sides, so for the time being we can only uphold the standard of fact and welcome the flow of information, however heartbreaking to read.

We don't get to transition yet.

We are forced by the standard of truth to live in pergatory for the time being.

[Mr. Curious]

@Jesse

I hear ya. Much of the experience was self delusion, but some real lessons were learned as well.

Like Brian, I'm working to hold onto the good stuff I acquired on the path (meditation, sense of service, etc.) and discard the crap (like PLM claims, talk of regions, etc.).

All that said, I do believe people are capable of having legit "mystical" experiences that have value / provide insight, but I no longer think these are bestowed by religious figures or Gurus. They come from our mind (which is mysterious and mystical enough on its own, no PLM required).

[Jen]

Hi Mr. Curious,

I agree with "holding onto the good stuff". As a Charan initiate initiated over 50 years ago, it took time to adjust and change my old beliefs and now I'm thankful that I am still a vegetarian, don't drink alcohol or take mind altering drugs, live a moral life etc. Living a balanced life and being grateful is a blessing, keeps my mind and spirit happy and letting go of that ego of feeling 'special' is good.

Gurinder's so called strange behaviour in changing the teachings doesn't bother me much. I suppose many spiritual paths devolve and Gurinder keeping things light and making jokes I've come to accept now. One of the blessings of getting old, not taking life too seriously.

[Jesse]

Mr Curious, I recently saw a quote of the Dalai Lama where he said that he thought it was a bad idea for westerners to convert to Buddhism because he said it'd get old and boring and they'd fall away from the faith anyway.

This to me applies to every non Christian religion for westerners. Most people aren't religious in a deep way, so religions for the average folk serve as communities and reminders of virtues like you mentioned.

As India works to remove churches and mosques and to not-so-subtly force Hinduism on their population, so too should USA attempt to limit the activities of foreign religions. Not for religious reasons though, but to minimize the disastrous effects of cultural confusion.

Otherwise we can just take the historical route of a multicultural empire dissolving into violent chaos that nobody who mattered seemed to have predicted until it'd already started. But Yugoslav wars probably weren't as cool as Serbia Stronk memes make it seem.

[Spence Tepper]

Jesse, are you Christian?
Christianity was used to defend slavery.
It's been manipulated to defend pedophelia.
It has been the cover for fraud to this day:
How many false priests have we had?
What you are defending is just another form of exploitation.
I'd rather advocate a more universal platform of truth.
And as for spirituality, yes the spirit is a wonderful experience. Worship of the Spirit.
Christianity, in the media, is just another hate group.
Truth has nothing to do with it.
It's corrupt.

[Mr. Curious]

@Jesse

Re: westerners' general level of religiosity:

Interesting, I'll look for that Dalai Lama quote. In my personal Sant Mat experience, it seemed the Westerners (especially Germans) bought into the dogma / religiosity the most. Indians would take quick darshan, socialize a bit over chai, then go about their way to pursue careers, find a spouse, etc. They often didn't even meditate. The Westerners sat in closets to meditate for 12 hours, gave up sex (what!), became austere, talked regions ad nauseum, etc.

Note: My experience was here in the US. Not sure how things are in India.

But yes, asides from Sant Mat disciples, Christian Scientists, Jehovah's Witnesses, evangelicals and the snake handling people, it seems most westerners espouse religion-lite (community, reminder of virtues, etc.).

Re: preventing cultural confusion in the US by limiting "foreign" religions:

I don't think cultural confusion comes from having a healthy choice of religions. Most people just adopt the religion of their parents anyway. IMO, cultural confusion is a more a result of shifting gender roles, rapid technological advances, warring media outlets, etc.

Re: limiting foreign religions, aren't all religions practiced in the US ultimately foreign (well, besides Mormonism and Scientology, which are homegrown)? :-)

That said, I definitely think it should be more difficult for some to get non-profit status. Too many crazy groups out there.

As far as India goes, I think what the Nationalist government doing to limit religious expression is wrong, short-sighted, and will bite them in the ass. Don't think it's a good example to follow here.

Diversity has always been a strength of the US's IMO.

Great convo, hope I interpreted what you said correctly!

[Jesse]

Spencer, the number one slave owning country in the world today is....... INDIA!
Hindus have various methods of practicing slavery while using tricky definitions to justify it.

Sorry that you're part of a Hindu offshoot that practices slavery more than anyone on earth.

What do you think of Israels recent declaration of being an ethnostate/theocracy? Pretty violent religion that Judaism is. Somehow nobody is doing much to stop their reign of terror.

Maybe you're just a hypocrite?

[Spence Tepper]

Hi Jesse:

You wrote:

"Spencer, the number one slave owning country in the world today is....... INDIA!
Hindus have various methods of practicing slavery while using tricky definitions to justify it."

Certainly not defending India or Hinduism, they've got lots of corruption, just like we do. There is a lot of human trafficking in the U.S. Not trying to say one form of evil is worse than another...

Like you are...

You wrote:

"Sorry that you're part of a Hindu offshoot that practices slavery more than anyone on earth."

Wow, that's a lot of hostility coming from a closet Christian!

You wrote:

"What do you think of Israels recent declaration of being an ethnostate/theocracy? Pretty violent religion that Judaism is. Somehow nobody is doing much to stop their reign of terror."

I'm not a zioinist. This is why my folks left Judaism for Christianity when I was 5 years old.

Only to find the exploitation of Christianity to be global..."

You wrote:

"Maybe you're just a hypocrite?"

And maybe you're a guy with serious anger issues.

I'm not defending anybody.

Seems like you are trying to defend Christianity, dude.

Well, plenty of hypocrites there, too, sorry to inform.
So sad.

[Jesse]

"Wow, that's a lot of hostility coming from a closet Christian!"

I'm not a Christian. I've said this many times, and unlike most people, I find lying to be difficult. It's probably aspergers-lite or something.

I said that India owns the most slaves and India is majority Hindu. How is that hostile? Because you felt weird reading a fact that you were previously unaware of? Because you're part of a Hindu religion and you don't like to be associated with its bad practices? Your feelings aren't my hostility. Don't get mixed up here.

Just as I was correct about your guru being a conman and you had to catch up to me, so will you, and most of the human population, be forced to catch up and deal with the fact that societies need to have something in common about them to maintain themselves, and America doesn't have that anymore. It's usually religion that we all agree on, and it'll likely be religion that'll be forced on us again. Instead of fighting an uphill battle, it makes sense to go to the one that the majority is already familiar and comfortable with.

Yugoslavia wasn't an aberration. It was the historic norm. And we see it repeating in real time all over the world as we speak. Luckily you're older than me and won't have to suffer through the consequences of the boomer generation's desire to adopt anything from the outside. Diversity was not their strength, and offering religious freedom was not a sufficient remedy to stop that tragic war which has yet to completely end.

Just as India will inevitably become a Hindutva nation or break into various countries, so will most of the west revert to Christianity or disintegrate and subsequently be swept up by quasi socialist governments which will suck. Your personal negative experiences with the religion won't change this fact, just as Israel's horrible track record go away simply because they have a 3000 year history of defending slavery.

What I find fascinating is that I could go on and on about any other religion and nobody would say anything whatsoever. But once it's Christianity, we get guys like you coming out of the woodwork to list all the evils of the religion as if they aren't present in the family of your mangod and all his sycophants.

All this stuff is off topic, but in a way it's not. These foreign religions offer easy answers to huge life questions, and it's all presented as being something innocent, but it's not at all. It's extremely disruptive and negative and I suspect that many of these Indian religions and various Islamic groups are actually money laundering and colonization plots.

[Spence Tepper]

Jesse
You wrote
"guys like you."
Well that says it all doesn't it?

The whole world is a very dark place. You won't get an argument from me about that.

And there are a few legitimate sources of good hope and well justified good will.

I'm more interested in the light, not the darkness.

And if you have some of that wealth to share, that's a meal worth a few moments of communion with another human being.

[Dungeness]

Pretty violent religion that Judaism is

Gosh, Judaism is pretty tame as religions go... six million
Jews murdered by Christian nations in WW2. Not to speak
of the random thuggery of pogroms again by Christinans
over centuries, the systemic anti-semitism still widely seen.

[Jesse]

"Gosh, Judaism is pretty tame as religions go... six million
Jews murdered by Christian nations in WW2."

Dungeness, now tell me without looking it up how many European civilians of other religions were killed.

My grandmother was Jewish. Her family fled a government who at the time was mostly run by fellow Jews who ended up murdering the King and his small children and later ordering the military to murder tens of million of people of all religions, but mostly Christians. But gosh, that's tame right? Only about 30 million dead people. Totally tame.

I'm assuming you're a product of the American public education system because you're repeating irrelevant propaganda that has nothing to do with what I'm talking about. Literally nothing at all. A total non sequitur. It's like saying that if I got punched in the face it's proof that I'm innocent of anything and everything. What an extremely weird thing to say, especially considering that I'm talking about the inevitability of conflict, not the sole evil or innocence of one group or another.

You should go to live leak and you can watch videos of Israelis and all the fun and happy tame things they do for the peace that they're (we're? not me maybe, but my Dad is Jewish according to Jewish law) solely capable of. Things like shooting surrendered kids in the face, then hundreds of peaceful Israeli citizens protesting outside the home of the dead kid and attacking his mother with rocks...... for peace.

But back to my point , which was that people fight about this religious stuff and it takes down entire countries frequently. The tao te ching was right about not giving people too many options to think about. Better to have one common religion instead of 20 competing guru cult religions that don't mesh with our culture or values at all and require the adoption of foreign myths. Much of the developing world is learning and embracing this fact, and they're on the ascent while the west is going into decline.

[Spence Tepper]

Hi Jesse:

You wrote:

"Better to have one common religion instead of 20 competing guru cult religions that don't mesh with our culture or values at all and require the adoption of foreign myths"

Hmm. State imposed religion? Sounds totalitarian! That doesn't mesh with the freedoms Americans enjoy. And that is part of our culture. The freedom to choose. Competition is a good thing, in a Democracy, even competition among ideas.

You can treat people like children if you like. That's fine for a totalitarian regime.

But it's not American. Not our way.

Here, people make decisions for themselves.

Are you so sure you are better at that than others? So good you can impose your personal beliefs upon a whole nation?

Ah, there's humility for you!

[Bombay Blonde]

@ Spence : This isn't about multiculturalism or faith options, it is about the dangers of believing in cult philosophies that breed specialness but end up in emotional erosion. Let's say you hadn't gone down the RS boulevard and had become a practicing Sikh instead. What revelations can you expect ? That Guru Gobind Singh's eagle was a crow in disguise ? That Guru Arjan Dev got the Adi Granth written by his disciple while he languorously drank buttermilk in the sun ? That the Granthi who runs the neighbourhood Gurudwara was watching Stormy's videos ?

How upsetting would that really be ?

[AJ]

@BB

"That the Granthi who runs the neighbourhood Gurudwara was watching Stormy's videos ?"
I wouldn't be surprised if that happens.

[Dungeness]

My grandmother was Jewish. Her family fled a government who at the time was mostly run by fellow Jews who ended up murdering the King and his small children and later ordering the military to murder tens of million of people of all religions, but mostly Christians. But gosh, that's tame right? Only about 30 million dead people. Totally tame.


Huh, are you talking about the murder of Tsar Nicholas II's family and
Stalin's purges in the thirties that kiilled 20-40 million? I've never heard
any claim, even revisionist, that Jews were complicit.

Stalin was notoriously anti-Semitic.

[Appreciative Reader]

Quote Mr. Curious : … The blissful experience could have something to do with the pineal gland (stimulated by meditation) … https://www.amazon.com/DMT-Molecule-Revolutionary-Near-Death-Experiences/dp/0892819278 ...

Hello, Mr. Curious.

Yes, I am aware of the possible connection of the pineal gland, and of chemicals like DMT -- not to forget auto-suggestion as well -- with so-called spiritual experiences.

What struck me in your account was this : You had apparently not been closely associated with Sant Mat at the time of initiation, and nor do you seem to have been at all invested in their particular narrative, so that auto-suggestion seems very unlikely. Nor had you, at the time when you were initiated, spent long hours meditating, so we can rule out stimulation of the pineal gland through protracted and focused practice. And nor had you been made to ingest psychotropic substances at this initiation event (or so I presume, else no doubt you would have mentioned this pertinent fact).

And yet you speak of “light, sound and bliss” at that initiation event, and also mention some disorientation immediately after.

And it isn’t as if your pineal gland had been violently stimulated, at that event, by some kung-fu-style nerve-center-targeted punch between the eyes. (Or so I presume, else you’d have mentioned it, right?)

Given all of this, I was wondering what rational explanation there might be for your remarkable first-hand experiences at the time of your initiation.

[Spence Tepper]

Hi AJ
You wrote
"One will have to rely on the circumstantial evidence/”gossip” to decide for oneself. No facts will come out of the most corrupt system."

I don't think it's a good idea to use hearsay as anything more than a rough indicator. That's the basis of evidence for blind faith also. So it doesn't meet the standard for factual truth. We are making decisions based on what seems reasonable, and that is hopelessly biased to our own history and culture.

If you believe in the supernatural then you give such claims value, you will believe many supernatural claims.

If you are a cynic you will belive many cynical claims.

But in neither case do you have actual proof.

This current situation is different, however, AJ.

There really is factual evidence, which Brian and others have brought forth including court documents that prove ethics have been breeched and money has been siphoned. It's more than a smoking gun.

Unfortunately the information you presented is gossip. But it sounds reasonable. It adds depth and provides explanations. But it also deepens the criminality to a whole darker level. But today it remains gossip.

The factual evidence of the sworn testimony of Sathya's victims also is hard evidence.

Hard data is there. But so is gossip.

And since now hard journalistic information is coming out, I think there is hope that we will get a better picture of actual fact.

It's good to present what you know, but let's not pretend it's fact, just as we would not pretend subjective inner experience is objective external fact.

That is the point of this Church, IMHO. To set and raise the standard of truth. Not to reject other forms of information at all. Everything has its value. But to properly place the quality of that information, placing fact as the highest standard, verified, with independent sources anyone may confirm for themselves.

As for the future of RSSB?

Entire cultures change. The sublest things take root almost invisibly and disrupt culture and politics in retrospect. But at this point the effects are all conjecture.

Sathya's sect isn't growing.

Facts do have an impact. They're like seeds. New people considering joining but doing some investigation see something that wasn't there before, and will be less likely to join up.

And those very people may be the investigators of tomorrow, the historians who bring a more balanced fact based picture to light for the next generation.

[Spence Tepper]

Hi Bombay

You wrote
"@ Spence : This isn't about multiculturalism or faith options, it is about the dangers of believing in cult philosophies that breed specialness but end up in emotional erosion."

Both belief and disbelief harbor their own dangers.

I think there is danger in impeding our own natural growth. Growth requires the freedom to try and fail, and try again. The freedom to say" this isn't quite right " and to move to another pathway.

Or to say I've found truth in it.

The meditation works, in so far as it's practice gives the promised benefits, at least experientially. That has been my fault experience. And each year the practice becomes finer and more glorious.

There is no finer experience of bliss, that I have known, than that. And it is there for the least amount of daily effort.

To see that co-opted or denigrated by corrupt parties is extremely disheartening. But it takes nothing away from the inner wealth at all.

A flawless diamond in a jeweled setting and one in the dirt is still a flawless diamond.

How can the setting be flawed? Yet, clearly that is the case.

It only raises the value of the flawess diamond.

[Jesse]

"Sounds totalitarian! "

Again,Spence,it's the historical norm. It's coming whether or not we like it and these stupid play time with guru ji cults and Islam are only gonna speed up the rebalancing. I also love freedoms but I'm guessing they won't last.

Dungeness, the slaughters started pre Stalin and "I never heard" is because you never looked into the topic. It's common knowledge. You can read lists of party members or read Harraetz for Moses' sake. They've discussed the issue.

None of this is relevant to my point anyway which is that we're gonna lose all these things because hippies like myself didn't understand how mass psychology works and what the repercussions of chaos would be.

[AJ]

@ Appreciative Reader
@ Curious

"And yet you speak of “light, sound and bliss” at that initiation event"
If I am not mistaken, in Sant Thakar Singh's initiation, they made people sit for 40 minutes of light meditation and 20 minutes of sound meditation. I think before the light sitting, it was explained that what can be seen at various planes. Before the sound meditation, it was explained what can be heard.
@Curious - Please correct me if the explaining was done after the meditation.

If that is the case, it could be possibly construed as "seeding". I think David Lane talks about it. There was a similar experiment done with class students and many mystical visions, etc. were experienced by these students.

[AJ]

777 mentions -
"I mentioned only the abusive self appointed in RSSX lines
I suspect a Russian cult in Siberia
Also I have great respect for some "self-appointed" like
the Malaysian Lady who is so strong on vegetarian life
and compassion
she had many TV Channels called SupremeMaster.TV"

The "Self-appointed" Malaysian Lady related to Supreme Master TV is Ching Hai and she is actually vietnamese.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ching_Hai

Guess who is her initiating Master?
It is Sant Thakar Singh - from the RSSX lines. (There is a video of Ching Hai sitting near Sant Thakar Singh).
She never publicly acknowledges that Sant Thakar Singh was her Master.
She now claims that she was initiated by some ascended Master in the Himalayas

(Guess who else claims that they were inspired by ascended Masters - It was Paul Twitchell - founder of Eckankar - He was an initiate of Sant Kirpal Singh and severed ties with Sant Kirpal Singh to start Eckankar. He claims a line of 970 Masters that preceded him - http://andrea65.tripod.com/guru3.htm)

Among other things:
- She launched a clothing line in New York and Paris in 1995.[12]
- She teaches Quan Yin (Sant Mat's light and sound)
- Hai gave $640,000 to Bill Clinton's Presidential Legal Expenses Trust which it returned in 1996 because of "suspicious" funding sources.[20][21] - Trying to buy political patronage in the US.
- The Taiwan government has investigated Hai's organization for "alleged fund-raising improprieties", which included a transfer of $2 million outside of the country.[2]

[AJ]

Kirpal Statistic - Using Inner Visions to Your Social Advantage
David Lane
http://www.ex-premie.org/papers/kirpal_statistic.htm

From David Lane -
In the early 1980s when I was teaching religious studies at a Catholic high school, I tried several meditation experiments with my students which convinced me that Kirpal Singh and other gurus like him were taking undue credit for their disciples' inner experiences. In my trial mediation sessions, I informed my students beforehand about the possibility of seeing inner lights and hearing inner sounds.

Naturally, given the boring routine of secondary education, my students were intrigued. I informed them that I knew of an ancient yoga technique that would facilitate their inner voyages. I turned the lights off, instructed them briefly about closing their eyes gently and looking for sparks of light at the proverbial third eye. I told them that I would touch some students on the forehead lightly with my fingers. They meditated for some five minutes. I then proceeded to ask them about their experiences.

[Kirpal Singh invariably did such a process directly after his initiation ceremonies; he also kept a running tally of how many saw stars and so on-something which I have called the 'Kirpal Statistic'.]

To my amazement, since I felt that Kirpal Singh and others were actually transmitting spiritual power, the majority of my students reported seeing light. A few students even claimed to have visions of personages in the middle of the light. Others reported hearing subtle sounds and the like.

I repeated the experiment on four other classes that day. I have also in the past ten years conducted the same experiment on my college students (both undergraduate and graduate). The result, though differing in terms of absolute numbers, is remarkably the same. The majority see and hear something. It doesn't take a neuropsychologist or a sociologist trained in statistics to realize that Kirpal Singh and others were simply tapping into an already built reservoir of meditational possibilities.

What was unique about Kirpal's approach, at least in comparison with other Radhasoami gurus, was that he claimed to be the responsible agent, the medium through which such inner experiences can be transmitted. Kirpal's disciples generally did not question his grandiose claims, since many of them did indeed see and hear something during their meditation. What they, of course, did not fully appreciate was that almost anybody could have induced them to have inner experiences.

[I don't mean to suggest, though, that Kirpal Singh was not a good catalyst, but only that he was not unique and that his success at providing thousands with access to inner lights and sounds was not necessarily connected to his mastership.]

[AJ]

David Lane (http://www.ex-premie.org/papers/kirpal_statistic.htm)
The 'Kirpal Statistic' is exactly that: the probable outcome that the majority of meditators, provided the necessary instructions in Shabd or Nad yoga practice, will see and hear something.

[AJ]

@ Appreciative Reader
@ Curious

IF you haven't already seen, you will find the following video interesting (The Kirpal Statistic: How Visions are Self Projected) -
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ihm8L-3aabQ

[Spence Tepper]

Hi AJ
The hard evidence I'm aware of that exists is the following.

1.the Luthra and Luthra audit initiated by Fortis' board when finances tanked.

2. The additional audits the board ordered after the first audit.
(in total these proved the Singh Brothers were siphoning loans which remain unpaid to private companies without collateral they had interest in, many with Baba Ji's wife as the principle director and hence recipient of the funds. And this was one of two reasons they were terminated) .

3.The expose articles by Bloomberg, India Economic Times and others confirming the above.

4. An expose article demonstratiing Gurindar and his wife's connection to the various companies, interlocked boards, that also mentioned the sale of the RSSB charitable Mohali hospital that was sold to Gurindar's private equity firm then demolished.

5.The India Government website court record detailing a lawsuit by a construction company against RSSB confirming the sale of the hospital, it's demolition and transfer of the lands to Fortis (also major interest by Gurindar, operations run by one of his sons, and principal executives the Singh Brothers).

6.The fraud verdict against the Singh Brothers around the sale of Ranbaxy (which was used to grow Religare and form Fortis, both Gurindar holdings.)

7. The fraud and penalty judgment for selling tainted meds and forging documents at Ranbaxy by the Singh Brothers. The largest judgment levied in the history of the United States FDA.

8.An expose about Fortis' board decision to expel the Singhs in second part in fear they would siphon more loans from Fortis to pay their FDA forgery and the Daiichi fraud judgments against them, in addition to the money they had already siphoned to Subnam, Baba Ji's wife and others of related interest.

9. The news article detailing Fortis 'decision to sell the company because of their tanking performance, nearly 2 billion in stock value, with the losses of over $400 million dollars in siphoned and missing money.

[Spence Tepper]

Hi AJ
I guess I didn't have enough coffee this morning... Or still blissed from meditation... I had responded to your request about hard facts with a listed summary of what I recall had been presented and exposed in the press.. The Financial audits, the interlocked boards, the fraud verdict, etc but it is lost in cyber space. After having looked it over, I laughed and thought, "what other information do you really need?"

I wrote that very reply but it went to the wrong comment... But my aging Satsangi friend is feeling better today so its all very good.

[Mr. Curious]

@AJ

Thanks for the Kirpal Statistic link, I'll check it out.

If I recall correctly, STS did indeed mention the types of things one could see during meditation / initiation. So, it could very well be seeding.

I had never meditated before initiation, so don't have a frame of reference from which to compare.

It'd be interesting to hear the testimony of an initiate who was a strong meditator prior to initiation to gauge if the initiation improved their practice any.

These days, I don't think inner experiences are "transmitted" per se, but self-generated. Our brains are amazing movie producers / projectors. Every awesome movie we see on the silver screen started out as a vision in someone's brain.

That said, there are 3 meditation experiences I still don't have an explanation for (yet):

* The "pulling up" sensation. This can be so strong it's scary
* Sensory current inversion (kinda feels like your head's being turned inside out)
* Seeing reflection of my face (as if in a dark pool of water)

When the first 2 happened (in my first 6 mos after initiation), I got a bit frightened and this interrupted my meditation. So, I don't know where the pulling up / sensory inversion would've led.

Again, there's prob a explanation for those phenomenon as well.

[Dungeness]

Dungeness, the slaughters started pre Stalin and "I never heard" is because you never looked into the topic. It's common knowledge. You can read lists of party members or read Harraetz for Moses' sake. They've discussed the issue

Common knowledge... really? Dates? Names? Did you mean Haaretz?

My grandmother was Jewish. Her family fled a government who at the time was mostly run by fellow Jews who ended up murdering the King and his small children and later ordering the military to murder tens of million of people of all religions, but mostly Christians,

What country? Russia? Which King? Again, provide background for these assertions. Which article(s) in Haaretz?

[Jesse]

I'm gonna go off here because Dungeness's "sources????" thing is as bad as the other tedious guy who is afraid of information. Plus it'll be one of my last posts (you're welcome) so I feel I should be harsh.

Obviously, Dungeness, you know I'm talking about the Ramanov family and the subsequent events all over what became the soviet union which were certainly not Christian or Russian in their origins and inception. Nothing about communism or socialism really came from Christendom, but oddly enough, all these non Christians were capable of mass murder. It's not what TV told me.

You're defensively ascribing angelic qualities to an entire race of people for no reason other than that in one war they suffered a lot and have had trouble everywhere they go. So have a lot of other people. Doesn't make them immune to doing evil. Somehow ones suffering erases every other aspect of their history in your mind, including shooting kids while being recorded on video.That just conveniently disappears from your mind. Very weird, but also normal in USA. I can promise you that my grandmother and her family, though they weren't IDF soldiers opening fire on crowds of children, they certainly weren't angels.

And you have google etc. on the same device that you're wasting time replying to me with your "um links???" posting. You can search articles yourself on Haretz (who cares how it'e spelled?) about Jewish involvement in many atrocities all over the world if you wish to lower the divine and blameless status of a sacred people in your mind. You can't accept negative facts about obviously flawed and corrupt gurus so it's doubtful you'll be able to overcome the feelings you feel when confronted with the imperfections of what you perceive to be divine ethnicities, but Israel's own liberal media including Haaarrrrrrreeeeeettttzzzzz reports on stuff like Baruch Goldstein and other bad things beyond whatever the evangelical lobby in USA wants to be known. It's the information age. Even Tibetans are losing their grip on their claims to being a holy race of monks who totally haven't been raping kids for a thousand years with impunity (i personally know victims.it's so culturally ingrained that they think it's normal to have been raped by lamas). I never thought I'd see that in my lifetime.

You and Appreciative Reader are lazy and dishonest people to be quite frank. I can't stand anyone who uses the internet yet refuses to utilize search engines when their taboos are touched on, but instead starts saying "sources please!" Even Spencer went out into the wilderness of data like a normal person and searched (and proved me right) when I told him that Gurinder wasn't as advertised and that his hypothesis about African AIDS medicine was hilariously and tragically hopeless.

I mentioned elsewhere organ harvesting and sex trafficking by various UN orgs. Before you tell me that the UN is saving the world and is comprised of the greatest humanitarians who've ever lived and all their employee/mercenaries are made of fluffy clouds and rainbows, please spend time on duckduckgo or yahoo search. I like the chaos in my own brain and I don't want to use my energy to organize it into an academic-sounding screed for the benefit of random nobodies online. I'd rather just say something controversial and see if you are willing to do an Eddie Bravo and "look into it."

[Spence Tepper]

Hi AJ
Well, my heart is broken.
I cannot associate with such corruption.
Within that same heart are noble ideals of what it means to be human, and in this mind, memories of acts of kindness and compassion, and deeper still, a vast sea of love that I take my sustainance from and could not function without.

I have become too simple, and happy in my simplicity to look upon this moral poverty, this vast appocolypse of what was once a city of nobility, on a platform of principles, highest of all, that God is love.

When that becomes a billion dollar business for the families of the leaders, they have blotted out the sun, turned all that gold into Iron covered in rust.

And tossed the jewels along the roadside.

[AJ]

@ Curious

"That said, there are 3 meditation experiences I still don't have an explanation for (yet):
* The "pulling up" sensation. This can be so strong it's scary
* Sensory current inversion (kinda feels like your head's being turned inside out)
* Seeing reflection of my face (as if in a dark pool of water)"

I don't have an explanation for these. I have heard a lot of such cases at least in the Sant Kirpal Singh branch. Sant Mat probably calls it opening of the third eye/tenth door and reaching the sub-astral/astral plane. Pulling up or sensory current inversion is perhaps also referred to as "dying while living".

There is also an initiation video of Sant Baljit Singh (SBS) in which a few newly initiated folks in New Zealand are asked about their experience. One experience discussed is SBS standing on a balcony in a Mansion. David Lane seems to have some explanation for this phenomenon but in this case there was no seeding for seeing SBS on a balcony. Love to understand a possible explanation for this?

My dream project is to be able to setup a website, Sant Mat statistic, on which initiates around the world can report their initiation/meditation experiences and the data collected can be mined for various things including if there is a significant difference between RSSB and Sant Kirpal Singh tree (non-seeding vs seeding). The sample would be kind of biased because the hard core fanatics would not participate (Because of the injunction that the inner experience is not to be shared) but it should provide some insights.

[Jen]

Jesse, I will miss you.

I enjoy your no nonsense attitude and you are really smart and funny. So refreshing in a fake world with fake people and especially fake gurus !!

[AJ]

@ Spence

I take heart from the "fact" that the present time is called Kaliyuga, by the Hindu scriptures, an age of moral depravity and spiritual degeneration. I guess, the disappointment is less if the bar of expectations is set very low accordingly. But I still keep my hope high that there will be some sort of divine (I am hoping there is some higher consciousness because otherwise our existence as a random event is a very depressing thought) intervention.

[Jesse]

Thanks, Jen.

It's fun to binge on internet convos for a while and then disappear. I'll be back.

But at least 3 others here have said they're leaving only to be back a day or 2 later. We'll see if I really go away at all... But I think I will after I read the latest post of Brian's.

[Spence Tepper]

Hi AJ
The meditation is exactly as promised.
The teachings are noble and mostly pure (the Soul has no sex, and we are all part of the One, which we merge with through the Word)
I think the problem is money.
No true Saint, in my estimation, takes a penny.

Power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely.

When the entire RSSB and Dera are legally in the Master's name the line has already been crossed. And that started a few Master's ago.
The distinction between Dera money and Baba Ji's money was destroyed long before Baba Ji came into the picture. It was all a fraud.

This is a photocopy. But where there are photocopies, the original is there somewhere.

But because the teachings about Shabd and the meditation are pure, so then is the existence of a true Master, a teacher at a higher level.

Who would they be?

Needs to be someone who refuses authority, has no connection to any organization and makes their own honest living, and who knows what I've experienced and can help me develop further.

I'm ready.

[Spence Tepper]

Hi AJ
I always have the sanctuary within. It's completely different there. Inner Master never fails and is my sustainance.

[AJ]

@ Spence

I agree with your comments above.
Shabad is the key. If Shabad is real (I think it is - intuitively) then Shabad (the True form of the PLM) will guide us. I suppose if we have the right seeking for the True Home, we will be "found" by the PLM.

Let us hang in tight.
Bon Voyage!

[AJ]

@ Spence

I have some information to share with you but it may not be appropriate to do so on this blog.
Can we connect via email? Brian knows my email. Is it possible for you to shoot me an email?

[Bombay Blonde]

@ AJ : " s* " has suggested that the toe sucking scene is from the Shiv Dayal montage. Well, cultural histories can never be written with absolute accuracy, this toe sucking story and other compositions of karmic reduction go back to the tales from Agra and beyond. I guess there are always practices that are unique to one tutelage while some are passed on. Specifically, the cultural connotation of toe sucking goes back to eighteen century folklore as an act of subservience. Hence, the suggestion of karma absolving makes some sense from a Sant Mat perspective.

You said above ... " Some of the people who might know things, such as this ex-director, have no Axe to Grind with GSD. They are well ensconced themselves to bother running around in a corrupt system trying to expose GSD for no particular reason. " Well, it began with Dinesh Thakur back in the day and there are several others who have come forward with their accounts. The malpractice was systemic, a business practice. It's so important to applaud Dinesh and the rest, and even this ex-Director who has given you what you have posted.

Interesting accounts from the other groups, the whole web of Sant Mat is flawed, at so many levels.

[Dungeness]

I can't stand anyone who uses the internet yet refuses to utilize search engines when their taboos are touched on, but instead starts saying "sources please!"

Facts and sources are terrible things to waste.

I mentioned elsewhere organ harvesting and sex trafficking by various UN orgs....

Didn't you suggest GSD might be involved too, moonlighting from
his day job poisoning sick kids? Or, was it the Jews taking a break
from mass murder?

Jesse, I wish you well on your journey. May the truth inside
reach us all.

[Jesse]

"Or, was it the Jews taking a break
from mass murder?"

A break. Neo cons just killed tens of millions around the middle east in the past few decades, Israel never stops their genocide.

You're a sarcastic genocide loving moron, a liar and a hypocrite. I don't wish you well.

[Jesse]

Just a reminder that nobody gets all butthurt if someone ascribes all forms of evil to Christians or anyone else.

Kind of strange defensiveness from Spence and Dungeness. Almost like they want special treatment for some groups.

Ciao!

[Appreciative Reader]

Quote AJ : … “seeding” … Kirpal Statistic ...

AJ, thanks very much for bringing this up. Absolutely on target!

Actually, yes, I’m aware of David Lane’s little “experiment”, absolutely, and of his Kirpal Statistics as well. Although it’s been some years since I’d read of it -- straight from the horse’s mouth, incidentally -- and I guess this whole thing must have slipped my mind. Again, thanks for posting this very pertinent portion here from DL’s accounts.

Although -- now that I think over this again -- we still don’t really know what this is about, do we? Neither the Thakar/Kirpal “statistics”, nor DL’s “experiment”. That is, we do know the outcome of both, but I don’t see that we really know the “how” of it.

DL seems to lean towards an actual spiritual experience, when he says, in speaking of this, that “Kirpal Singh and others were simply tapping into an already built reservoir of meditational possibilities”. He questions -- and discounts -- the Guru’s alleged agency in directly acting as some kind of conduit for this sort of thing, but equally, he seems to believe in the ‘reality’, if only the subjective reality, of “meditational” experiences of this nature.

The other possible explanation is, of course, that this is all a form of auto-suggestion. DL himself doesn’t express that opinion, though, about the outcome of his experiment. Although I have to say, myself, that in as much as a prior description of what to expect seems essential to this process, to that extent a self-induced hallucination, in other words auto-suggestion, would then appear to be the more “rational” explanation. But obviously I’m speculating here, and don’t really know.

[Appreciative Reader]

Mr. Curious, what was that initiation ceremony of yours actually like, then?

Did they first describe to you what to expect -- like AJ asks you, in their comment -- and did they also make you meditate on the “light” and “sound”, and did do these both before you were actually initiated? That would seem to be the crucial question.

If your answer is ‘Yes’, then your experiences immediately on “initiation” can be explained away either as straight-out auto-suggestion, or else a self-actualization of your latent meditational potential (that latter, more extravagant, take is David Lane’s interpretation).

But if your answer is ‘No’ -- that is, if you were initiated before being told what to expect, that is, if the explanations and descriptions as well as the actual meditation all came afterwards -- then we’re back to scratching our heads over some plausible rational (and non-supernatural) explanation for all of this.

[Dungeness]

You're a sarcastic genocide loving moron, a liar and a hypocrite. I don't wish you well.

Ah, fire and brimstone from a blog pastor. I can feel the love!

[AJ]

@ Appreciative
@ curious

FYI – Related to the meditation experience

This was posted on a facebook group called
“Love and Devotion without the Commotion- Sant Mat”

The poster A.L. is an initiate of Pier Franco Marcenaro (who in turn was initiated by Sant Kirpal Singh). A.L. was not aware that he is not supposed to discuss his inner experiences.

Here is what he posted –
“I think the pulling don’t necessarily have to do with what kind of sound. To me it seems like a sound can move around in head and when I reach a certain state the sound place it self in a position in the head where it has a pull 🤔But so far it is only big bell and bagpipers-like sound that have pulled me. Drums, flute, sitar doesn’t have that pull yet.”

“you cannot miss it when it starts. It’s so clear and strong. To me it feels like you’re being lifted inside from the toes up to your face and head. It’s like a feeling of vacuum in the crown chakra down to an area in the head where I think the soul is placed, in line with 6 and 7th chakra.”

[Jen]

"(9) What people often find most satisfying about a religion or form of spirituality isn't so much the concepts that make up that teaching, but the good feeling they have from being part of a group that accepts them, welcomes them, supports them."

There is also the fact that when a large group of disciples are sitting in front of their guru and focussing on Him there is a very strong and powerful uplifting energy of love being transmitted which is something worthwhile, even if the guru is just simply playing a role.

[Spence Tepper]

Hi Jen
The problem is that our belief is in the Truth.

Meditation awakens inner truths.
And we have the Master to thank for that.

But when we see the Master surrounded by those involved with fraud and theft, even his wife, sons, coworkers and RSSB board members, we cannot ignore the fact that the vows we took have been violated, repeatedly, by those who assumed the roles of model citizens.

What can a thief really teach except to be a thief?

The love we feel is real. And there are real teachers. That is the only explanation for these false copies. The original must also be here somewhere and it is our duty, if we are serious about loving Truth, to find them. A true Sant Sat Guru. One who leads a perfectly clean moral life. One who doesn't take a penny from the Sangat. One who doesn't mix Sangat assets with their private business. One who doesn't legally own the assets of any religious organization. Instead they live a very simple, humble life. A life where their career is small, just enough to sustain their spiritual activity. Where their life reflects the desire to help others, not to build large religious and business empires, and certainly not to entangle both.

They spend their time on higher and eternal things. Their life reflects their vows and their values. They sieve their live in service, not acquisitions.

[Spence Tepper]

They are here to give, not take.

[Jen]

Spence, you and I are on very different wavelengths. You are all about justice and so called Truth. I have no idea what truth is and am unknowing, allowing others to be who they are. You are on a path of justice and self-righteousness. We are all different.

If satsangis find love and hope following their guru, then my response is "to each their own". True compassion and love is about not hurting others, not crushing their beliefs.

[Dungeness]

The love we feel is real. And there are real teachers. That is the only explanation for these false copies. The original must also be here somewhere and it is our duty, if we are serious about loving Truth, to find them.

That love and ambience Jen speaks is certainly what most
of us feel.

But the dilemma is we see through a glass darkly without
real progress on the path. The disciple never progresses
on his own let alone finds the real Guru.

"When the chela is ready, the Guru appears" is a meme in
mystic literature. The chela searches, but is blind and
incapable of finding the door on his own. He goes through
the motions is all. Like a child crying in the night, he has to
be guided,

If the perception is that GSD is flawed, and improperly
appointed, the disciple is left adrift. Who's real and who's
fake. If GSD is fake, who else? Maharji? Entire lineage?
A disciple usually doesn't have the advancement to know.

What is GSD's status if he's officially unconvicted? Or offers
a plausible explanation of wrongdoing? Or doesn't and
says "Sorry, I suckered you, you're on your own now.
Forgive me". Where do the suckered turn?

Love has all the answers. The Path is here to help you find it.
We've been given the tools to do it. But it's still inconceivable
to me to be unfolding this way. It's one thing to see blatant
wrongdoing and have doubts but I will never give up on GSD
until I hear his explanation and am guided by the truth inside.

[Dungeness]

The love we feel is real. And there are real teachers. That is the only explanation for these false copies. The original must also be here somewhere and it is our duty, if we are serious about loving Truth, to find them.

That love and ambience Jen speaks is certainly what most
of us feel.

But the dilemma is we see through a glass darkly without
real progress on the path. The disciple never progresses
on his own let alone finds the real Guru.

"When the chela is ready, the Guru appears" is a meme in
mystic literature. The chela searches, but is blind and
incapable of finding the door on his own. He goes through
the motions is all. Like a child crying in the night, he has to
be guided,

If the perception is that GSD is flawed, and improperly
appointed, the disciple is left adrift. Who's real and who's
fake. If GSD is fake, who else? Maharji? Entire lineage?
A disciple usually doesn't have the advancement to know.

What is GSD's status if he's officially unconvicted? Or offers
a plausible explanation of wrongdoing? Or doesn't and
says "Sorry, I suckered you, you're on your own now.
Forgive me". Where do the suckered turn?

Love has all the answers. The Path is here to help you find it.
We've been given the tools to do it. But it's still inconceivable
to me to be unfolding this way. It's one thing to see blatant
wrongdoing and have doubts but I will never give up on GSD
until I hear his explanation and am guided by the truth inside.

[AJ]

@ Spence

"The original must also be here somewhere and it is our duty, if we are serious about loving Truth, to find them. A true Sant Sat Guru. One who leads a perfectly clean moral life. One who doesn't take a penny from the Sangat. One who doesn't mix Sangat assets with their private business. One who doesn't legally own the assets of any religious organization. Instead they live a very simple, humble life. A life where their career is small, just enough to sustain their spiritual activity. Where their life reflects the desire to help others, not to build large religious and business empires, and certainly not to entangle both."

That is one way to deal with the situation.

Any pointers/leads/suggestions?

Also, are we capable of finding a true Sant Sat Guru (especially if we have not been successful so far)? If there is a Sant Sat Guru (connected to the 5th plane) out there, shouldn't that Sat Guru be competent enough to find us instead of us with our limited capability trying to search? So, what can we do? Wait? How do we make ourselves ready? What indicates readiness?

[AJ]

@ Appreciative
@ Curious

Curios, please feel free to correct me but I believe the initiation procedure is -
1. Simran words are taught and everyone repeats them for some time. [This is when some Masters claim that initiation happens]

2. The inner planes are described (Astral you see a star, etc. , Causal, 3rd, 4th plane and 5th plane are decribed and their features. It is suggested that one can see some Masters and even the Radiant Form of the initiating Master)

3. Person getting initiation is made to close his eyes, concentrate in the center of darkness in the front and made to repeat the Simran words for approx. 40 minutes or so. Afterwards, the person is asked about his inner experience and this is typically recorded [This kind of written record of initiation experiences was saved and used as proof that Paul Twitchell was initiated by Sant Kirpal Singh]

4. Sounds of various planes are described and technique to hear the sound is described (plug the ears with thumbs, use cushion, wooden Ts or the thighs to support the elbows)

5. Person is made to sit for 20 minutes with ears plugged. The sound experience of the freshly initiated person is discussed after the sitting.

Auto-suggestion might be at work but to be fair not everyone sees or hears what is described before they sit. Example is a Sikh girl in Chandigarh sees Krishna playing flute inside. Krishna was not described as someone who can be seen inside. She, being a Sikh, was not particularly interested in seeing Krishna. If any, she would have been more inclined to see Guru Nanak within. [NOTE: I talked to this Girl]

A lot of people don’t see anything at initiation despite the “seeding”.

Another point, most of the people have significant experiences at initiation and usually don’t have experiences after that. This is explained as Master providing a significant experience at initiation so that the path is made believable and subsequently the initiate has to make progress on their own by meditating hard. [OR is it that the person getting initiated has expectations of some kind of magic and the “seeding” is at work?]

[AJ]

@ Jen

"AJ you say: "most of the people have significant experiences at initiation and usually don’t have experiences after that".

I'm surprised because satsangis do not usually speak about their inner experiences. We are specifically told not to and I have mixed with many different satsangis from different countries and never had anyone tell me about their experiences. In fact, if they did, I would have been shocked.

AJ were you initiated by an RSSB Master? I am a Charan initiate and we followed very strict rules especially in not discussing our inner experiences.
Posted by: Jen | September 23, 2018 at 10:27 PM"

I am not an RSSB initiate or a Sant Thakar Singh initiate. I am still seeking the truth. For me, the topic is of academic interest, for now. The comment was related to the conversation Appreciative, Curious and I were having. We were discussing Curious' experience. Curious is a Sant Thakar Singh initiate.

I suppose it depends on what is called inner experience. Is discussing various lights, forms, beings seen and various sounds heard considered inner? I guess, that would be considered inner and initiates from any of the Radhasoami branches/Sant Mat branches usually are not willing to discuss those unless they leave the path. But, is asking someone if they had inner experiences since initiation or for a while (without discussing the details of the actual inner experiences, if any) considered inner? I am not sure. Some of the Sant Thakar Singh's initiates and his initiation representatives were willing to talk about the lack of inner experience or the frequency of inner experiences without going into the exact details of the inner experience. Apparently, discussing the experience on the day of the initiation, in which a meditation sitting related to light and sound was done, was not such a taboo and the initiation representatives and other initiates were willing to discuss their initiation day experience, if that was helpful.

BTW, "strict instructions" sounds like a religious injunction. Is it related to the KAL bogey?

I sometimes wonder if this was a way to prevent people from discussing and coming to a conclusion that there are no fireworks in the meditation they are doing? Would love to hear your take on why it is not allowed?

Just curious, Does RSSB make you go through a light and meditation sitting at the time of initiation? Is the initiation experience discussed on the day of the initiation? Do people have significant experiences on the initiation day? or is that phenomenon limited to the Sant Kirpal Singh's branch of Sant Mat?

[Jen]

Hi AJ,

This is an interesting discussion because I always assumed that all satsangis would be very closed mouthed about their experiences. It was really like a taboo and now thinking back I can't exactly remember who had warned us about talking about inner experiences. It could have been Sam Busa who was the South African representative and he had a close relationship with Charan.

It seems like the Beas branch of Sant Mat was probably more strict than the others. Food for thought now because I hadn't queried this secretiveness after initiation and my understanding was that if you tell others you will lose your experiences and also it involves the ego. Not related to the KAL bogey but having to be very careful to not have a big ego!

Also, what you just mentioned about no fireworks happening, that probably was a good reason to stop people from talking about their inner experiences, because maybe there weren't any! My initiation experience was very quiet and formal and we were warned not to ever repeat or say the Simran words out loud. Very secretive. We were told that if we said those words to another person that would mean that we were initiating them. Sounds very different to Kirpal's branch.

[seeker]

Here is what Baba Faqir Chand mentioned about the truth in one of his satsangs:

"I know not the meaning of these lines. I may be wrong. Had there
been His Holiness Data Dayal Ji I would have asked him about what he
meant by Nama. His Holiness is not here now, only his writings are with
me. His writings give me peace of mind or say I interpret his writings
according to my own satisfaction. There is no other Mahatma who dare
say the TRUTH. I told you that I wrote three registered letters to Baba
Sawan Singh Ji and received no reply. How could he reply? Had he written
the TRUTH, his Dera would have suffered a great loss. Truth is always
bitter. If you say the Truth, you would not be respected or liked. "

- Baba Faqir Chand

[seeker]

My knowledge (Gyana) is that whatever
buds forth or manifests within is nothing but illusion. The suggestions and
the impressions are not the REALITY. Till this fact is not known, the weight
of existence (Bhav) does not vanish. Yesterday, too I explained to you that
all the games of mind, conscience, intellect and ego is existence (Bhav)
After knowing, that all the inward thoughts, feelings and manifestations
are not a fact but a fancy, I do not get tempted by them. This is what I
understand about True knowledge.

- Baba Faqir Chand