Advice for RSSB believers about how to deal with news about their guru

Yesterday this comment was left on a Church of the Churchless post, "Great BusinessToday video about RSSB guru and Singh brothers." The commenter wondered how to break the news about Gurinder Singh Dhillon's financial misdeeds to Radha Soami Satsang Beas (RSSB) devotees who had put a lot of faith in their guru.

Dear Brian Thanks for your blog and exposing the truths!! It is really sad to learn all the truths of recent events. I had a feeling somethiing is corrupt but it still came as a shock when my intuition was confirmed with facts.

I am not part of Sant mat myself but do know people that I love that is. They don’t know yet and I just don’t have the heart to break this news. I can just imagine that if your whole belief system was based on the idea of a perfect living master and to found out he is not so perfect after all, will pull the rug underneath you.

Especially this path’s standards are so high in terms of diet and moral life. How do you break such news to somebody you love while you know their world will be shattered? How have other Satsangis took the news? Is it best to just keep quiet and wait till truth be revealed? Ruth

Ruth asked some good questions.

Since I was a member of RSSB for 35 years, and embraced the Sant Mat teachings for almost all of that time before I stopped believing in them, I've had to deal with the same difficult process of breaking away from a spiritual philosophy that used to mean so much to me.

All I can do is suggest the following advice, which I've shared in a "laundry list" form -- because everybody is different, and I want to give people a variety of ways to deal with disillusionment in a spiritual path or religious dogma. So I'm going to list these ideas as they come to me, without trying to arrange them in a particular fashion.

(1) Truth, Sat in an Indian language, has to be our primary concern. Without truth, we're lost in a maze of falsehoods. So whenever truths are revealed about a guru, master, religious leader, or whoever, those truths should be embraced, not pushed away.

(2) Truths can be painful. But the pain of living a lie, or living in illusion, is greater. Yes, fantasies can be fun. But eventually fantasies are revealed to be much less substantial than truth, since truth always wins out in the end. Why? Because reality is hugely more powerful than illusion.

(3) This is one of my all-time favorite sayings. When I used to give talks at RSSB meetings (satsangs), I'd often cite this quote from Philip K. Dick: "Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away." So if a spiritual or religious belief is given up, nothing is lost, because reality is beyond beliefs.

(4) When we expect someone to be perfect, we're bound to be disappointed. So don't expect perfection. Not of your spouse, friend, relative, co-worker, boss, political figure, or... a guru. Everybody makes mistakes. Some are innocent mistakes. Some are willful mistakes. Regardless, expect imperfection, not perfection.

(5) Taoism, which I'm drawn to as a philosophy, says that the world is made up of yin and yang, light and darkness, positive and negative, substantial and insubstantial, embracing and rejecting, and so on. Opposites are what make the world go 'round. If we welcome only one side of a pair of opposites, we're ignoring a big part of reality.

(6) Often people think, "If such-and-such happened, my life wouldn't be worth living." But usually, when that thing does happen, life is still very much worth living. We humans are resilient creatures. Don't underestimate your capacity to adapt to a difficult situation, and then move on from there.

(7) It's natural to want to feel special, which includes being part of a special group, one especially favored or beloved by God. However, what if God, or the cosmos, actually doesn't play favorites? What if it doesn't matter whether someone believes in this or that, but simply does their best to be a good human being? (As you can guess, this is how I consider reality operates.)

(8) Consider: out of all the religions, spiritual paths, and mystical teachings in the world, what is the chance that you have come across the Only One that is objectively true? Very small, right? Yet almost every believer feels that they have found that Only One. Isn't this more than a little egotistical or self-centered? 

(9) What people often find most satisfying about a religion or form of spirituality isn't so much the concepts that make up that teaching, but the good feeling they have from being part of a group that accepts them, welcomes them, supports them. Yet it is possible to have that same good feeling after someone leaves a certain group, because there are countless groups that accept, welcome, and support.

(10) Think about how many changes have occurred in your life. Most likely you've changed homes, friends, jobs, cars, lovers, pets, hairstyles, clothes, sports, and so much else. So it isn't strange that people also change their religion, spiritual path, or mystic teaching. This is normal.

(11) Doubts also are normal. Often people who belong to a certain religion or spiritual group wrongly believe that everybody else in the group but them has perfect faith, because usually expressing doubts isn't welcomed. Believe me, almost everyone has doubts, whether they admit this or not.

(12) Trust yourself. If you trusted yourself when you decided to join a religion or form of spirituality, also trust yourself if you decide to leave it. Don't be led astray by a group's teaching that leaving it will bring horrible consequences, such as a nasty afterlife. Almost every group has ways to keep members from leaving. Know that you are stronger than those ways.

(In case you're wondering, yes, this 1976 cartoon really was drawn by Charles Schulz. Read the comments on that post.)

Comments

[Spence Tepper]

Hi Jen
You wrote:
"If satsangis find love and hope following their guru, then my response is "to each their own". True compassion and love is about not hurting others, not crushing their beliefs."

If they are following a thief, it is wrong to hide it. Otherwise, they can make a decision for themselves. But they can't honestly make that decision if they don't have the facts or don't understand them.

I'm not saying Baba Ji is a thief at all. But I am saying the facts surrounding his financial dealings are plentiful, from independent and verifiable sources. People must draw their own conclusions. But it's not fair to them to keep them in the dark or to advocate doing so.

I'm neither hurting anyone nor crushing their beliefs. I'm a Satsangi, Jen. As committed to my Master as ever, and under His protection as much as ever! Actually, I'm doing my job.

All I'm doing is acknowledging the facts Brian and others have shared. These facts are fairly indicative. And they are heartbreaking.

It is possible that a Guru might engage in fraud. May do. Many with many loving disciples.

And it is possible, though less so, that a Sant Sat Guru might do so for reasons we can't understand.

But let the truth come forth.

Simply put, Jen, Satsangi means Association With Truth. So, how can you be a satsangi and dishonor the truth for pleasantries? That is building on sand. At least as my Master has taught me.

My beliefs haven't changed at all, nor my practice, nor my inner progress. Nor my commitment to Truth. Nor my love for both Maharaji and Baba Ji.

It is my love of these that compell me to honor the facts. If I were not interested in Truth I would never have engaged this path, nor would the Master have pulled me into it.

The outer characters may simply not be whom they have presented themselves as.

Or the "loving disciples" might not actually be who they think they are.

But we're all initiates so that means, like it or not, we're in the same family.

And in a good family, family members talk to each other.

[Appreciative Reader]

@AJ :

I am not familiar, myself, with the initiation process at Sant Thakar, or for that matter at (Sant?) Kirpal or at RSSB. However, the initiation process you describe is not dissimilar to the initiation process at a great many other traditions. (Of course, not all traditions have a formal initiation process at all.)

In the absence of correction from Mr Curious (or others), I'll assume what you're saying is correct (that is, it applies to Thakar Singh's initiation).

And yes, in that case I suppose the setting would be very similar to the David Lane experiments that you mentioned.

Absolutely, then, auto-suggestion is a possibility. (So is self-actualization of one's "meditational" potential, I suppose.)

I find this kind of extreme suggestibility difficult to properly wrap my head around. On the other hand, I have never myself been a very suggestible person, never one to simply agree with others, never one to acquiesce to anything in order to simply go with the flow. (And nor have I ever attended Thakar Singh's initiation, so who knows how I might have myself have reacted to something like that?)

.

Lovely talking, AJ. I agree fully with your view that it makes sense to openly share one's experiences. Provided one does this honestly and without any vested interest (for example, without manufacturing anything, or emphasizing particular aspects in order to either inflate or to discount the image of individual traditions, or in order to pretend to be some kind of a spiritual superman, or something like that), I think this would help everyone who's interested make (better) sense of this sort of thing.

Only thing is : Many organizations -- not just RSSB -- have these express proscriptions against speaking about one's experiences (other than in closely controlled situations or groups). Most don't explain why they do this, and those few that do bring up that inflating-your-ego chestnut.

For those who follow these traditions, and take these proscriptions seriously, I suppose an acceptable halfway house might be to share their experiences anonymously : after all, how much of ego build-up can possibly accrue when you're not even publically announcing your name?

[AJ]

@ Appreciative
@ Curious
@ Jen

I just spoke with someone who used to be the initiation rep (IR) of Sant Thakar Singh. The IR confirmed most of what I had reported.

Here is some additional info -
1. every one getting initiated repeated the Simran words aloud to practice it for 30 minutes or so. IR would say the Simran (5 words - Mantra - available online) and the people getting initiated would follow. Then after some time everyone present at initiation would do it simultaneously. [30 minutes for Simran recitation aloud + 40 minutes of light meditation (while repeating the simran words) + 20 minutes of sound + description of initiation + dos and dont's + description of the spiritual planes - it took about 2 and half hours to perform the initiation]

2. There is an injunction much like RSSB to not disclose the Simran words and not to discuss the inner experiences [I believe pretty much every Sant Mat lineage follows that - I believe it may have been to keep the words secret - Ishwar, who I am studying these days, openly mentions that those words are available online and the best they can do is to help a person reach the Astral plane in meditation and nothing else. Baba Sawan Singh has described why those particular and different words were chosen as Simran words - helps prevent the mind from getting into a rut, which happens with a single word Mantra ]

3. Sant Thakar Singh had an oral simran program. 5 or 10 people could volunteer (seva) where they would recite the Simran aloud in the presence of a possessed initiate [Sant Thakar Singh's ministry was known for treating the possessed people] to give them relief. Some people still recite the Simran aloud [in private] before commencing their meditation. It is supposed to help calm the mind.

4. IRs could help initiates with their meditation issues [But disclosing inner experiences, especially the details of it, was discouraged because of the Ego development - I agree with Appreciative when he says that it could be done anonymously - no ego gain there]. The lack of inner experiences could be discussed with the IR who would try to help with giving Tips.

5. Any initiate, at least in the US, could sit in the initiation of others. This would allow them to meditate in the presence of the Master Power, which was very strong at the time of initiation. Also, the initiation experience of freshly initiated person [who would meditate and have some experiences at the time of initiation] could inspire the initiates who were lacking inner experiences.

6. Regarding auto-suggestion, The IR said that what could be discovered inside was very briefly described in general terms. So, it may not have been at work. Many people reported experiences that were not suggested before they sat for initiation [But there is always the chance of subconscious getting triggered and creating a unique experience of its own]

7. If an initiate forgot about the Simran words, he or she could ask another fellow initiate over the phone or in private [This would result in the Simran words being spoken] but care was taken that a non-initiate does not hear the Simran words.

8. Regarding speaking the Simran words to others. It is also treated as initiating others. So, the words are not disclosed to others.

9. Imagining or contemplating the physical Master was strictly forbidden [So, there was no Dhyan aspect of the meditation that is practiced, I believe, in RSSB and Baba Sawan Singh talks about in the Spiritual Gems]. The light or dhyan aspect of the meditation was basically looking at the darkness in the front and repeating the Simran words and waiting for the light to appear and the inner journey to commence - it was expected that the Radiant Form of the Master would appear on its own [no imagining to be done because then you fall in the trap of the mind - mind recreating the Master]

10. Regarding suggestibility, Not everyone had stellar meditation experiences at Initiation. So, perhaps different people with different suggestibility or perhaps different people have different levels of concentration and some may have been too excited about the possibility of seeing things within - who wouldn't be excited to see their beloved God/Guru - Nanak, Krishna, Jesus, Sathya Sai, Jehovah, Isiah, etc. - all were reportedly seen at Sant Thakar Singh's initiation.

11. Regarding anonymously discussing initiation experience as a sort of a rigorous and scientific study. It will be very difficult. The sample would be very small [perhaps only some of the folks that visit this site] because many will be prevented by the injunction of Sant Mat gurus to not disclose the inner experiences.

[Spence Tepper]

Hi AJ
You wrote
"11. Regarding anonymously discussing initiation experience as a sort of a rigorous and scientific study. It will be very difficult. The sample would be very small [perhaps only some of the folks that visit this site] because many will be prevented by the injunction of Sant Mat gurus to not disclose the inner experiences."

The intention of that rule is to avoid ego, pride and status. We should digest our experience.

But Sant Mat at core is a science. Therefore research is crucial. My Masters degree was in the study of meditation practice. There was no question and only support for the work. Anonymity and a healthy sample size, along with confidential testing periods can resolve all that. Long term meditators are beyond these issues. They are as interested in the results, whatever they may be, as any curious researcher.

[Mr. Curious]

Hi AJ (& AR),

Thanks for the research! What you wrote accurately describes my STS initiation experience.

Here are a few additional notes / deets:

* I was initiated by STS directly. Prior to the initiation, he gave a short talk. His IRs treated him with visible deference throughout. During initiation, STS touched each person's 3rd eye center.
* I sat directly in front of him and looked into his eyes as he talked / gave Simran (as instructed / suggested by the person sitting next to me). I thought it was odd that someone asked me to look into his eyes (to receive vibrations no less!), but I went with it for the story / experience. Ok, whatevs, I'll look into his eyes for the vibes, lol...
* I had a hard time understanding every word of STS's talk, due to his thick accent, but could discern most. During the part of his pre-initiation talk about the downward trajectory of the world, negative power, etc. he looked directly at me and made a comment re: how Indians in the US have bad habits and compromised morals, and are even worse than Americans. [This seemed a little psychic to me. I'm Indian American and was, admittedly, hedonistic at the time...by any standard. He may have been given some info beforehand, who knows.]
* After the initiation, IRs went around to each person and asked them discretely what they saw & heard within and jotted down the answers.
* My personal inner experience was:
During light meditation: Moving clouds of blue light, white foggy light. These clouds burst when you focused on them. Feeling of traversing inner space.
During sound meditation: Roaring river, thunder. Sound started on the right side, but then shifted to above.
Feeling: Bliss / relaxation that persisted for a few hours. Felt like drugs (I was not under the influence at the time).

Another person sitting next to me, a middle aged caucasian man, saw Maharishi Mahesh Yogi inside. I tried to make conversation with him after, but he was visibly shaken and rushed off.

I was in a very good mood when I left, and drove absentmindedly in the wrong direction for 1/2 hour. [I lived 5 min away.]

During the first 6 months, meditation came VERY easily as we were told it would. Concentration, bliss and insight seemed to come each time (in addition to lights, etc.). After the 6 months, it became tougher.

As far as faith goes, I would doubt often. However, faith would renewed during each summer retreat (STS flew in from India). There definitely seemed to be something magical, inspiring in the atmosphere.

The last time I experienced that from Sant Mat was 2003, I think. My personal POV is that the positive feeling came from being in a tight-knit community, a feeling of specialness / feel good-ism and the real benefits of meditation. Unfortunately, dogma, judgment, hypocrisy and corruption creeped in (as they do in every faith or movement).

OK, that's all I got!

[AJ]

Curious, Thanks for validating my information.
Also, thanks for reminding me about the touch on the forehead. My IR friend also touched the 3rd eye area when the IR was initiating in Sant Thakar Singh's name (I have heard Rajinder Singh also does this - it comes from Sant Kirpal Singh I believe). This act is supposed to raise the consciousness faster to the third eye.

Regarding, STS directly looking at you -
1) It could be that he had mind reading ability [Many yogis/psychics/spiritual pandits have demonstrated that - I had a weird experience of going and seeing one in the Himalayas - He looked at my forehead and blurted out a lot of correct information - even described my apartment in the US]

or
2) He just looked at you because you were one of the Indian Americans while making a fairly general comment about the Indian American and your inner guilt ascribed the comment as directed at you.
????

BTW, the STS's last visit to the US was in 2003. So, it makes sense that your last magical atmosphere was in 2003.

What happened to the Organization that made you disconnect? Was this after the 2003 visit of STS? He was quite sick in 2004.

Regarding the 6 months period, I was told it was called the Grace period - when the Master Power works strongly through you to convince you that the path is real. Afterwards, you are supposed to meditate with your own effort until you reach the Radiant Form. One master has commented that if you sincerely do meditations in the 6 month period immediately after the initiation, one can validate if one's master is perfect or not

AR,
It looks like you have a lot of information to try a suggestive meditation experiment to see if you can self-induce a Sant Mat experience or find a good catalyst (as David Lane) says.

If you or anyone else is looking for a good catalyst or experimenting with meditations without getting initiated, Ishwar Puri has a lot of recorded guided meditation sessions on youtube. He also holds a meditation retreat every year [There was one held this past weekend in Wisconsin] and he has a few intensive meditation retreats- 7 days of meditation instructions and practice [It is listed on his website - ishanews]. They are open to anyone [any seeker who is not initiated and perhaps never wants to get initiated but is open to the idea of meditation. NOTE: Many Sant Mat paths restrict such events to the initiates]

Spence, I will cook up a survey and send it to you. I will appreciate if you can review it. Perhaps, we can convince Brian to post it as a small experiment and we can look at potentially creating a website out of it. I would be curious to know what insights can be generated. I have heard of a lot of people with no inner experience after 40+ years of meditations.

Another difference between RSSB and STS, the Satsang concept in the North America was quite different. RSSB satsangs consist of someone preparing material and delivering a 1 hr talk.
STS Satsangs were 1 hr of Master's DVD [They are supposed to have some kind of charging or empowerment and make you focus your attention on the Master - Also serve to quieten the mind by redirecting attention from the worldly issues to the spiritual Master] followed by 1 hr of group meditations [All satsangis meditate in one place - If there is such a thing as vibration, everyone is feeding off the good vibration of the others. The advanced are uplifting the strugglers]

[Jen]

Mr Curious says: "I thought it was odd that someone asked me to look into his eyes (to receive vibrations no less!), but I went with it for the story / experience." and "During initiation, STS touched each person's 3rd eye center"

I am wondering if there was some kind of hypnosis happening, some kind of transference? So different from my initiation experience.

I was initiated in the 60's and never interested in any other spiritual path but RSSB, in fact had not even heard of these others, so its interesting to read what other people have experienced. The satsangis I have mixed with (in South Africa, New Zealand, and Australia) never mentioned anything about entity possession so this is very surprising. Have to be careful in choosing a Master obviously.

I just looked up Sant Thakar Singh and came across this discussion on a forum. Very strange to hear about an initiate suffering from entity possession.
.............
"I am a person who suffers from entity possession while following the
practices of Sant Thakar Singh. Entity possession varies in its seriousness
but more than 10% of Sant Thakar Singh's initiates worldwide suffer from it.
I have sought to leave Sant Thakar Singh and follow a safer teacher of Sant
Mat but none is able to break my connection with Sant Thakar Singh and so I
am trapped. I am in a position of real suffering and many other Thakar
initiates suffer similarly.
...
Sadly, many many too many of the
initiates of Sant Thakar Singh suffer from chronic entity possession."

[Mr. Curious]

Jen / AJ,

Re: the entity cases, they used to be a lot more visible at retreats and other events, but at some point, I didn't see them as much. Either they were cured or hidden away, I guess.

As I mentioned before, possession seemed to afflict the strongest of believers. This is very similar to the possession / exorcism phenomenon in Catholicism. Reports show people can indeed suffer from a possession of sorts, but this is self-induced on some level. A similar phenomenon can be seen in some Christian denominations where people feel compelled to speak in tongues, etc.

There's a great documentary by the director of the Exorcist movie where he asks scientists and medical professionals to review possession cases (Catholic, in this case) and comment on the phenomenon at hand (which often included super-human strength, unnatural amounts of energy, etc.). The scientists / medical professionals definitely agreed something was indeed happening, but could not determine the source. Tellingly, possession only impacted believers which seems to point to the fact that there's some conditioning at play. Not sure though, the jury is still out...

Regardless of the ultimate veracity of the path, STS, etc. it was definitely an interesting and heady time. You were directly involved in the battle between good and evil!

Gotta find another mission or cause!

[Mr. Curious]

@ AJ / AR,

Interestingly, Ching Hai was an STS initiate. [She's a self-appointed female "Supreme Master" based in Asia.] She doesn't like to bring attention to the fact that she's an STS initiate and has denied it. However, there are photos in circulation I hear that show the two together.

Ching Hai has quite a large following, and her movement operates 140 vegan restaurants worldwide. Plus, she has a 24-7 TV channel were she spouts loads of nonsense like how she's a 9th level master, her pets are 5th level, etc.

Sorry for digressing, but think it's an interesting connection and shows how these different gurus compete and try to out do each other (like businesses).

https://www.news.com.au/lifestyle/food/restaurants-bars/cult-leader-behind-worlds-fastest-growing-vegan-restaurant-chain/news-story/bdaf35c277e303881f071bb2803861c1

https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/kwkaz9/the-restaurant-chain-owned-by-a-cult

[AJ]

@ Curious
@ Jen
“I am wondering if there was some kind of hypnosis happening, some kind of transference? So different from my initiation experience”.
It could be. But Sant Thakar Singh was more effective in inducing this hypnosis than others [Rajinder, Ajaib, Ching Hai, etc. – Of course RSSB initiations are different]. I guess, he was a better catalyst [As David Lane likes to call Gurus]. Touch on the forehead could, perhaps, increase the receptivity because you have just been touched by the Master (who, you have been told by the excited initiates, has come from the Sach Khand to take you back to your true home – I guess you already have a lot of receptivity at that time to take up initiation given the information – you believe Sach Khand is true and a Master is capable of taking you there – the touch adds to the receptivity and results in the magic]. Perhaps, we can do an experiment to see if the touch works for us ordinary catalysts or did Sant Thakar Singh’s touch had anything special.

Jen, I believe you got it from the following thread (I read this perhaps a decade ago) –
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!msg/alt.meditation.shabda/iFKAGwC40ig/n2HDo_cTDQAJ

“Initiation is a very serious choice that has many long lasting
consequences. It is not a decision that should be entered into casually but
should rather be given the most serious consideration. The choice of inner
connection to the Master can not be undone once established through the
initiation. “ – Ralph Stein

One thing, I agree with is that organizations should inform the initiates that “INITIATION is IRREVERSIBLE”. It seems to be an unethical thing to do especially when the Organizations believes that initiation is irreversible (It is a different story that outsiders/disgruntled initiates may not even give any importance to initiation). What if an initiate wants to reverse an initiation? There is no de-initiation anywhere in the Sant Mat lines?

“Sadly, many many too many of the
initiates of Sant Thakar Singh suffer from chronic entity possession."
Question is do they suffer the entity problem because of Sant Thakar Singh or Sant Thakar Singh picked the entity cases (resulting from their own karma – as STS would say - building relationships with entities by using Reiki and other psychic healing) and initiated them to help them? I guess the jury is still out and remain out unless this was properly investigated. I wish the organization had kept proper records for such cases (and shared them – wishful thinking).

“Re: the entity cases, they used to be a lot more visible at retreats and other events, but at some point, I didn't see them as much. Either they were cured or hidden away, I guess.”
Both.
1. The Successor of Sant Thakar Singh banned entity cases from attending retreats. [So, no entity cases after 2005] This upset a lot of Sant Thakar Singh initiates who firmly believe he was doing a great service by helping the entity cases. This has resulted in disgruntlement (kind of similar to what Charan initiates feel about GSD changing things around). A lot of these initiates have now sought re-initiation from Ishwar especially after the Maa fiasco [Curious, you will be intrigued to know that the blonde assistant, from Austria, who used to be Sant Thakar Singh’s helper and always present with him, has taken re-initiation from Ishwar as per my friends]

2. My friend in Australia reports that he knows a few cases in which the entity cases got cured within 10 years or so by listening to the Shabad for 3 hrs or so daily (sound – I guess even the physical/preparatory/non-pulling/practice sound also can heal on the physical plane). If it is true then there is hope that Shabad works. [There are similar reports in North America].

“super-human strength, unnatural amounts of energy”
I met a Sant Thakar Singh initiate. She explained that she experiences these attributes and can fling her husband across the room.

“You were directly involved in the battle between good and evil!”
That was Sant Thakar Singh - Always fighting the Kal according to his initiates. I could never wrap my head around that one.

Curious, I think I had talked about Ching Hai in the earlier part of this thread. I agree with what you reported about her. Interesting case. [Paul Twitchell also disowned Sant Kirpal Singh in a similar manner]. She is much bigger than Sant Thakar Singh now. Sant Thakar Singh’s organization runs a single bakery in Sutherlin, Oregon [I heard it is one of the best in the area and people from far go there for the goodies prepared using produce from the organic farm in LCO] but nothing compared to the chain of restaurants and other businesses that Ching Hai runs.

[Jen]

Hi AJ, you ask: "Jen, I believe you got it from the following thread (I read this perhaps a decade ago) – "

Yes, it was that thread called: "Sant Thakar Singh - I Just Want Out".

Glad that there was no Touch on the forehead at my initiation, probably because it was by proxy. "Initiation is Irreversible" I don't mind that too much because I think Charan was probably (hopefully) the real deal.

Oregon seems popular with these cults. I watched Netflix's excellent series "Wild, Wild Country" about Osho and the 'orange people'. So different to the strong moral principles taught by (old version) Sant Mat, no wonder Gurinder changing the teachings is upsetting a lot of people.

[AJ]

@ Jen

"I think Charan was probably (hopefully) the real deal."

It sounds like you still have doubts/hesitations. You are not sounding 100%.
Have you not validated your path/Master?

That brings a series of interesting questions, how does one validate one's Master?

Radiant Form? Meditation experience? Are there external signs? What makes one sure that one is on the right track? Some talk about meditating sincerely and within 6 months validating the Master? How? Some talk about meditating with love and devotion? What does it mean?
How does one know that you have found the right Master? What if one has made a mistake? What does one do then? Seek another Master? How do we know if the new Master is the real deal?

Seems like the spiritual path is more confusing than the real world.

I would appreciate any thoughts/pointers/feedback

[AJ]

Can someone briefly describe the RSSB initiation procedure?

[Jen]

Hi AJ,

I'm wondering if the spiritual power transmitted from the original Masters in this Beas line has been slowly decreasing.

Probably the spiritual path is just as confusing (not more) than this so called 'real' world.

Yes, I do have doubts/hesitations. Why should I be either a believer or the opposite, an unbeliever. I'm somewhere in the middle. Taking the middle road like the Buddhists :) Maybe even following my own path now.

[Spence Tepper]

Hi AJ
You asked
"How does one know that you have found the right Master?"

How do you know you have the right friend? The right spouse?

It's always difficult to judge other people.

But if you see that person as a good person, good company, then what can keep you from them?

I would like to suggest adding another question, one that Maharaji taught me and which has proven to be a good guideline :

Does their company, whether it feels good or feels bad, help you to make your own progress?

That's easier because we have access to more information about ourselves and, if we are honest, can make a better assessment of our own progress.

I have found this to be a critical and powerful tool. It was a gift of Maharaji, and has helped me often to make decisions important to my own progress, even to helping me critically evaluate what personal progress really means for me, and what it should be gauged upon.

It has helped me decide to stay in unpleasant situations demanding sacrifice, effort and submission that were helpful to my development, as well as to leave pleasant situations that were a distraction from my own inner development.

Since that evaluation is ongoing, it is not going to look the same year by year.

We take in new information that helps us revise our personal assessment.

It's a good thing to learn and grow, and to change.

The tree laden of fruit, heavy with fruit bends low to the ground.

It is the tree barren of fruit that stands tall, unmoving.

[Dungeness]

How does one know that you have found the right Master? What if one has made a mistake? What does one do then? Seek another Master? How do we know if the new Master is the real deal

Mystics say the "right" Master is the one you feel drawn to.
Ishwar Puri clarifies if any master says answers are found
within -and not outside- then he's set the correct course.
Other mystics provide a list of guide posts: does he charge
money, claim to be a master, etc. But could lists and rules
ever get us out of this mess?

Ultimately, what's inside is the correct benchmark. Does
your intuition tell you you're on the right path? Are you
making progress? Are the experiences repeatable, does the
discipline sharpen awareness, raise appreciation of the
beauty and depth and preciousness of all you've received,
transform you with its friendship and love?

Maybe it's a stepping stone only. You'll keep seeking and
be drawn to a new Master. But it was the right direction
from the start.

[AJ]

Hi Dungeness, Spence and Jen

Thanks for sharing all the information. It is very helpful.

Jen, middle way makes sense.

Spence, checking on one’s progress seems to make sense. I should read up on Maharaj Charan Singh’s books. Any recommendations? I guess, one can constantly evaluate one’s progress especially on the outside and see if the company of the holy man is making any difference.

In that context, Sant Kirpal Singh had recommended keeping a spiritual diary and marking failures, in thought, word and deed, in various moral aspects (https://www.ruhanisatsangusa.org/gfx/new_diary.gif) and reviewing it. Perhaps, a modified version incorporating other aspects/attributes could be used.

Meditation, especially on the creative force, and the company of the Master should, in theory, make you a better person at the worldly level and people should be able to see the difference otherwise the spiritual path was a waste of time.

Dungeness, Ishwar always seems to make sense at least to me.

I will check him out with an open mind. I can always try to see if he can satisfactorily answer some of my questions in his Public talks and there is always an option to have a personal meeting with him. Ishwar has talked about the “unconditional love” of a Master and the “pull of the Master”. It would good to see if I can experience that, despite my over critical mind, when I meet him. I have nothing to lose.

[Jen]

Hi AJ, you say "Jen, middle way makes sense."

When I look at the Sant Mat path now I see a kind of strenuous disciplinary struggle going on with the mind and trying very hard to be perfect almost, well for me anyway. Now discovering how to be accepting, being in the moment, watching as an observer, not clinging, not fighting, seems a much better path. Its an ongoing practice and its all about being authentic and honest with self.

Finding the Middle Way

When we discover the middle path, we neither remove ourselves from the world nor get lost in it.  We can be with all our experience in its complexity, with our own exact thoughts and feelings and drama as it is. We learn to embrace tension, paradox, change.  Instead of seeking resolution, waiting for the chord at the end of a song, we let ourselves open and relax in the middle.  In the middle we discover that the world is workable.

https://jackkornfield.com/finding-the-middle-way/

[Spence Tepper]

Hi AJ
You asked:
"Spence, checking on one’s progress seems to make sense. I should read up on Maharaj Charan Singh’s books. Any recommendations?"

Spiritual Discourses Volume 1. It's incredibly wise. You will see a lot of myths around RSSB are dispelled by Maharaji, and good guidelines for living.

[Appreciative Reader]

Quote AJ : AR, --- It looks like you have a lot of information to try a suggestive meditation experiment to see if you can self-induce a Sant Mat experience or find a good catalyst (as David Lane) says.

That’s a great idea, AJ. Except, speaking for myself (and for no one else), I’m not in favor of experimental experiments, if you follow my somewhat inarticulate drift. But yes, I am, indeed, in the process of conducting some experiments of this nature, following the full prescriptions and proscriptions of the traditions concerned : but those have nothing to do with RSSB or Thakar.

As far as RSSB (and Thakar) specifically, my interests are more academic than anything else. And that interest is due, in large part, to the nature of this blog, and the (to me) fascinating discussions one often comes across here, and occasionally participates in.

Incidentally : I’d been toying with the idea of actually taking the plunge, re. RSSB I mean, one of these days ; but the far-less-than-pristine vibes that one gets from there of late has put me off, perhaps for good. (Again, that’s speaking for myself, and no one else. No judgment implied here towards anyone else’s choices, past or present.)

Quote AJ again : Perhaps, we can do an experiment to see if the touch works for us ordinary catalysts or did Sant Thakar Singh’s touch had anything special.

Heh, that’s not a bad idea!

We’d all taken David Lane’s experiments to mean that there is nothing especial about the likes of Thakar and Kirpal. And yet here’s a third bona fide explanation staring us in the face : perhaps DL is something of an adept himself, without himself realizing it! And experiments of the kind you mention would help us test this hypothesis. (Although then, at the end of our experiments, we may end up with the provisional hypothesis that we ourselves, unbeknownst to ourselves, might actually be adepts!)

[Kidding!]