« Business Today reports about Gurinder Singh Dhillon's suspicious financial dealings | Main | Atheism isn't a belief. It is the absence of a belief. »

August 25, 2018

Comments

Feed You can follow this conversation by subscribing to the comment feed for this post.

Hi One!

Everything you wrote about what a True Master does is noble and wonderful. I would agree.

A true Master would not embezzle funds, or encourage their cousins to embezzle funds year after year, and funnel those into their wife's companies.

That's not a True Sat Guru!

A very powerful Guru, one with great spiritual powers might do such a thing. A corrupted Guru might do this.

But not a Sat Guru.

One destined to be a Sat Guru but who became lost in material gain could do such a thing.

But they are no Sat Guru.

People do fall, even Gurus.

A Sat Guru, however wacky they may be, will never violate their own vows.

You will never see a true Sat Guru engaging in the theft of millions for personal gain, or causing harm to others, and certainly not encouraging their younger cousins and their wife to do so.

They may insult people, they may avoid showering and do other anti-social things.

But they live as the standard of right conduct, not the exception.

No Sat Guru ever violates their own vows, including the vow to live a moral life.

What they teach, they live.

And where they don't live it, they are no Sat Guru.

There is a reason why RSSB is coming to a close. And it is absolutely with Baba Ji's participation and under his direction. He knows what he is doing, as you say. He is making a point of showing the world he is not a Sat Guru.

And it's up to us to do our part and say "OK, I get it....". It's up to us to say "OK Baba Ji, we can actually decide right and wrong for ourselves...we can take that responsibility. "

Will he stop embezzling funds then? Probably not, since he's doing it for his own personal desire. He's not doing it for you and I.

That's his business.

It's just not the business of a True Sat Guru.

Spencer, thank you for sharing the information. Grim reading for me also.

SatGurus are the true governing authority of all the realms,
however in this physical plane as a human being they remain in composure, and does follow the natural ways.
If someone wants to see what a SatGuru is -
the worst possible thing is to see and judge His physical presence - which is also amazingly soothing and beautiful.
The Inner Grandeur is beyond the description of words - and HE isn't shy inside.

On the Inner Planes HE is always in HIS full majesty.
And unlike here, the lucifer and all his agents always bow to HIM.
And this is all I am saying about our loving Baba Gurinder Singh Ji.
Upon realisation most people here (mostly at the time of their death beds),
will want to cry endlessly for their misdeeds and doubts - HE is kind to forgive all.
After being forgiven, they will want to cry even more for being forgiven.
And that will bring amazing speed to the soul.

A True Master's ship never sinks,
those who are jumping off - are just elongating their path.
The will all still be fine at the end, but along with bearing their own created troubles.

As said by the seniors: "Every inch of every centre will be used as shelter"
Most of the exers are just going to wait and watch,
ending up wasting numerous years of this precious lifetime.
In fact many of the aged ones are going to die and reborn by that time,
they will only realise the realities at the time of their death.
Many will witness it live.

"Do make your own decision, but make it an informed one please."

There isn't any decision to be made. It was already decided for me by HIM.
Not only you, even if ~7 Billion+ people of this world will point fingers to the Master,
it doesn't matter to me - because what I've been through - they have not.


You said: "But he is not a Sat Guru." - how do you know that ?
Did Jesus or Hazur told you that ? - No.
That's only because you've not yet realised it.
And that you are on the judgemental side based on the material proceedings.

One way is that the statement will be validated and make sense
if you are a Sat Guru, which you are not -
hence your statement is completely invalidated.

Hmmm.....Gurinder ok but why is only him being criticised? Didn't Great master start expansion( remember dialog between him and Jaimal) .
Why Brian i don't hear critics on Charan from you? Do you guys think that leaving Gurinder is disillusionment when you safetly run to Charan after?Hasn't Charan had mistress and tricked others to smugle watches? There was no internet and we know less about those times. Charan spoke nice but behind that there were also money spending shopping right?, remember the story about room full of shopping gifts?? I think if internet was working in previous gurus time we would leave them all. Spence is now crying what sat gutu should or should not be alike, didn't Shiv Dhayal let a poor woman suck his toe all day long? Imagine if Jim would see Gurinder doing that in Jim's dera visit? So is this disillusionment? I know criticizing Gurinder is ok and we must do it but why run then always to previous gurus. Jesse said to Spence to go back to Charan dhyan cause Spences meditation bare fruits. But what about me what should i do a Gurinder initiate who still lives just and only because of meditation yes it saved my life but i never was IN the rssb social livin,my path was more here and rss forum and i mainly listened to critics. Should i also leave ashtanga vinyasa cause Jois was an abuser but vinyasa keeps me healthy? Should i also leave weight lifting cause steroid heads ruined image of weights but weights keep my muscles and bones strong? What is there to disillusion from, what or who? Is Brian disillusioned? I say partiality. Cause i always have feeling he says things about his new findings just as preachy or dogmaticaly as he did before about rssb when he was in but it's ok i am not bothered with that. So what is to be done. Crying over Gurinder and then run to the past gurus? Or is disillusionment somewhere else?
Who is there in me and you to be disillusioned? Find true self? What is true self? But sill peace and deep respect to you all.

777 -- seeing someone's form within doesn't make them God though.

Also, why do you keep linking to the wayback machine? If your post gets deleted, the link to it will as well.

Oh, it's to make sure that they archive the page, right? So you can refer to it later. Lol, I like your posts and your faith, but it will take more than generalities from the literature to convince me now.

One Initiated - I wish someday you truly realise who a Satguru is. You're so blindfolded that you can't see the truth. Just some visions within do not confirm that your Guru is GIHF. Even his form is made by your own mind and the answers you get within by that form is your own subconscious mind. Don't be ignorant brother. Wake up.

But you could not get inside my head, seeker.

Thanks for your wishes,
And I wish you exactly the same, seeker.

Hi One!

You say that the worst thing an individual can do is judge a Sat Guru.

I do agree with that.

At our level, how can we know?

Marko, that comment also refers to yours.

My comments are limited to the facts of embezzlement and the involvement of Baba Ji's wife, Sunhil and the Singh brothers over incidents over several years, documented and verified independently from several sources.

I don't think a Sat Guru would embezzle money. But I will agree it's not my place to make that call.

I love my Master, Maharaji, and I love Baba Ji. I can tell you several miracle stories about both.

But the fact is the crimes listed above were committed.
I don't claim to actually know Baba Ji's reasons for it.

I do know that blind faith has led many people down blind alleys.

The Catholic Church used to set their standard on the Bible. Whatever the Bible said had to be true, therefore that was their perfect standard.

In Sant Mat the Masters have actually given us the standard: To make a decision for ourselves. Not on blind faith.

Yes, how can we know? We must rely on faith at some point. But that is a faith that we will be helped in making our own decision.

Maharaji taught me three critical standards for truth which may help serve here:

1. Truth invites inspection.
That means complete transparency. When you encounter people hiding their actions, that is unlikely to be truth.

2. It is the hallmark of every adult to let go a favored opinion when facts prove otherwise.

You may read my exchanges with Brian and others to see that I did not choose to believe.
Brian, against my personal desire, presented facts that met my own earlier criteria: Independent corroboration, independent sourcing, and then, the judgments of courts and corporate boards which repeatedly, over several years, have pointed to corruption.

3. Make your best decision.


You may ask Master Himself why Subnam was listed as the head of many small companies she doesn't run, receiving loans siphoned off other companies by the singhs. Loans she hasn't repayed from Fortis and Religare, nor made payments on. Uncollateralized loans.

How did that happen?

So, no this is the last thing on earth I wanted to see.

But I'm not doing my Master's wishes by accepting my duty to take a decision for myself and to live within the four vows.

I'm still a Satsangi, One and Marko.

But the Master has been in the middle of embezzlement over several years.

It's a fact.

You may ask him why.

Hi One.
No one wants to take away the platform of love that gives us strength every day and helps us to accept difficult truths.

So you or I don't actually need to judge anyone. But we should have the strength to accept difficult truths when they arise, so that we do not become participants in that crime.

If we are to avoid enabling wrong behavior, to being part of something that is wrong, even criminal behavior, we must then carry the burden to investigate thoroughly and withdraw from that situation, when we are confronted with the real possibility of wrong doing.

We don't need to discuss the why. Who can really know?

But the facts of the crimes, that we can review in detail. That's our duty. The Masters actually teach us to do so.

And then you may choose to do as you wish. You may put the facts together differently. But you have done your personal duty to understand them completely. Because they involve you. Because you don't want to support something wrong.

True Masters are perfect, I believe.

But my judgment is not l perfect. Who really is a true Master? I may not know who is or isn't a perfect master and I would have to claim to be perfect in some ways to say that I could ignore any factual information.

My judgment is based on experience and that is new all the time.

The path confirms itself every day.

But a crime is a crime.

No decision in this matter is wrong if it is an honest decision, in the full light of all evidence, and not a means to avoid facts.

@ Jesse : Interesting comment above, thank you. As an agnostic theist and a ex-Sat, I believe that it would be impossible to continue with Charan's dhyan. The transference of the spiritual power comes from the preceding Sant and he ( the outgoing physical form ) chooses someone worthy by the dictates of the larger fellowship who live in the astral planes. I'm wondering, who could have got it wrong ? The transference is the basis of a spiritual lineage and it exists in its absolute evidential existentiality - through the current physical form of the haloed turban. Here, Gurinder. So, did Charan withdraw the Sat Guru strain that led to Gurinder's involvement in the pinda ? If that's true, then there has to be a way for the collective to know ... could we be in the process of it, through all of what is revealing itself ? Will Charan appear in the meditations of the ones who are initiated by Gurinder ? Will Charan come to the rescue of his flock who are on the fringes of the faith ? Or, will he send someone new to clean up Beas ? I have family members who have questions on transference ... unless of course, we go with Sant Mat 2.0 and conclude they're all charlatans and Gurinder is doing the faithful a favour by setting them free.

Hi Bombay!

The answer to you comments seems pretty simple:

The true Master is within.

What you find sacred, that is your Master.

And if that individual turns out to be corrupt, well, there can't be a photo copy without a real source somewhere.

That's what the guy who brought me to the path taught. Fakes are always there.

But in fact therefore, there must be a real somewhere.

A psychologist did an experiment. The parents of a child who always complained were worried about their child. The pyschologist put that child in a room full of toys. But even so, the child complained "There isn't a pony here!"

Not shortly after another pair of parents came concerned about their child who was always happy. The psychologist grabbed that child and threw him into a huge mound of fertilizer.

The child, smiling, started shoveling and digging holes, and the more he dug, the happier he became.

The psychologist shouted to him, "Why are you so happy?"

The child replied, "With all this horseshit everywhere, I know there MUST be pony here someplace!"

Marko, your example of leaving weight lifting because steroids ruined the image is completely different.
RSSB is a guru cult/religion. It's not a man you're supposed to be dealing with, but a god. Men make mistakes. Gods aren't supposed to make mistakes, let alone get involved in totally avoidable criminal activity.

But if you think that doing the meditation saved your life, then why stop? One Initiated has certainly succeeded in justifying the actions of Gurinder. Muslims have defended Mohamed's pedophilia for centuries and still call him the best man of all time. Christians haven't once paused even knowing that the Bible isn't what they claim it to be.

Just continue on with the meditation. Consider that Gurinder is playing a game, or that he simply served to pass on the jyot that he gives in namdan or initiation as us westerners call it.

RSSB never saved my life so I'm not so hung up on it, but if it had, I'd likely just keep pushing on like John Maus.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MDnO9LoMems

Hi Jesse how are you?
You say : Marko, your example of leaving weight lifting because steroids ruined the image is completely different.

Me: no i was telling my personal experience to me it was like that...
As i said i was never too in and most of my engagement is from rss and here and hours pon hours of meditation. Critic must be there. I realized i cannot even live without critics.

777,

You wrote:
"Yes archive will not be harmed for a long time
including my True comments"

I don't understand how this will work if Brian is deleting your comments,
For example I tried archiving this page here: https://tinyurl.com/yaoyl4wf

But when Brian deletes your comments,
they can get removed from the archive page as well ? Can't they ?

Quote Spencer : And I don't write these things easily. --- Brian, these are my days of personal trauma. --- Over thirty years on this path..... --- Most of my life...
(…)
Actually since 1978...40 years to be exact...


This I respect, Spencer. You’ve been able to fight your ingrained trust in GSD, to fight that pre-existing bias of yours, and -- although if took you a good while to do this -- to squarely face the truth (or at least, what the truth seems to be), even when this truth goes squarely against the grain of your ingrained belief system. I respect that very much!

One would think that this sort of thing would be effortless : provided one believes in rationality, one would think that it would be the easiest thing in the world to recognize, without dithering, what the evidence points at. (That is, while this recognition may cause distress and pain, one would think that the recognition itself would be instantaneous, effortless, easy.)

One would think that, but that isn’t how it works, in practice. I can attest to this from personal experience. The mind has a way of presenting justifications for one’s biases and prejudices that often blind one to evidence that, in retrospect, appears glaringly clear.

Which is why I appreciate this heroic -- although just a bit over the top, I believe that epithet isn’t out of place in this context -- recognition of the truth, coming from a long-time believer like you.


(And of course, I could say the same of Brian as well, albeit his unblinkering preceded yours by many years. After all, that unblinkering is what this whole blog is all about.)


.


This is a fascinating process to observe, this selective blinkering. The commenters on this very blog provide poignant instruction on this, the particular blinkering of (some of) these providing stark irony given that they’re usually out to debunk some particular irrationality even as they clearly reveal their own irrationality.

In the early days of this blog there was a commenter called tAo, whose comments (although sometimes not very kind) I appreciated for their apparently uncompromising clarity. And then, a few years down the line, I was astonished to find this same tAo spouting all kinds of obviously irrational BS about his own pet neo-Advaitic beliefs, and finally taking umbrage at Brian’s takedown of his BS and leaving this place altogether.

Then there was this person, who signs himself Mike Williams, who’s produced some lovely take-downs of Beas’s claims, including a painstaking and scholarly compilation of RSSB’s early history that I was very impressed with. And yet, some years down the line, I was astonished to find this same apparently rational Mike Williams present, in all seriousness, cock-eyed pronouncements about RSSB masters being devils (or succubi, or corrupted arch-angels, or agents of Lucifer, or some such claptrap).

More recently, we had a commenter called D.r, who was very incisive in his criticisms of RSSB and the irrationalities of the RSSB faithful, but who turned out to be wholly oblivious of the irrationality of his own particular brand of religiosity that he was try to peddle in its stead.

Finally, we have a current commenter, Jesse, who again is very rational, even incisive, when it comes to the irrationalities within the RSSB beliefs and practices (and exceptionally vocal -- and rabid -- in denouncing these), but who himself, amazingly enough, turns out to be holding astonishingly irrational racist beliefs that he is, demonstrably, wholly unable to defend (and indeed is demonstrably reduced, at times, to actually gibbering away incoherently when this pet irrationality of his is challenged, exactly like religious believers tend to do), and who is further astonishingly unable to recognize the evidence -- as crystal clear, if not more, as anything that is being discussed in this very thread in the context of RSSB -- for the hilariously over-the-top dishonesty and idiocy of the unbelievably clownish current POTUS (whom he, Jesse, actually and in all seriousness declares the best POTUS he’s ever seen, blindly defending that corrupt buffoon’s disgraceful and indefensible shenanigans just as the RSSB faithful keep on defending GSD!), even as he, Jesse, is able to clearly see and appreciate the evidence for the dishonesty of GSD and his cronies.

These are just some instances that come to mind. No doubt there are more of these.


.


This sort of thing is truly fascinating to me.


And of course, I realize that there is no reason to imagine I am myself immune to this sort of thing. I like to think I am intellectually honest as well as sufficiently self-aware, but then I suppose so do people like tAo and Mike Williams and D.r and Jesse ; and if they can be blinkered about their own prejudices, who is to say I might not myself be harboring irrational biases and beliefs and prejudices of mine own, that I am not even aware of?


For the third time, then, in the space of this not-so-short comment, I’d like to express my admiration, Spencer, for this clear-headed and honest recognition of yours of your own past blinkered view of the apparently clear evidence around GSD and his cronies.


`


Dear One Initiated,

I wonder if you would explain to me the exact point of this “mud platform” parable?

I ask not to scoff or to ridicule, but to understand. And in order to really understand the believer’s POV, it is necessary to turn to someone -- like you -- who actually believes in this concept (as opposed to most here, who may know of the fable but don’t see any actual wisdom in it).

I’ve heard of this parable, absolutely, but I could never see the point of it. Nor, now that I think of it, of a somewhat similar Sufi parable about the Sheikh (was it Nizamuddin Auliya? I forget who it was, exactly) who goes around town apparently drunk, shouting out drunken profanities, and ending his night’s revelries in the arms of a professional-extender-of-arms-and-other-bodily-parts, in the process losing the trust and the company of whole hordes of followers and hangers-on who would tag him all day long, with just one true disciple remaining with him.

What is the point of this kind of an exercise, exactly? (Again, I’m looking for the believer’s view here. The scoffer’s view is simple : namely, it’s all a convoluted attempt to defend the indefensible. The believers’ version is what I’m looking for now.)

Is it to test the disciple(s)? That doesn’t make sense. Why go out of one’s way to test someone? Life itself brings tests in its wake, organically as it were : why create additional tests of this kind? Unlike regular normal teaching of regular normal subjects, this kind of testing specifically of one’s blind faith makes no sense! The practice itself will presumably present tests that the Teacher can help the student with, without having to devise such elaborate charades. Besides, the end result of the test, that is, the actual ‘level’ of the student’s ‘progress’, presumably that is something the mystically empowered Sheikh or Guru is already cognizant of, without having to rely on tests to confirm that knowledge. No, that explanation -- about testing the disciple -- doesn’t any make sense at all to me!

Is it, then, simply to get rid of insincere followers? That doesn’t seem to make sense either. That is, this is much too convoluted a means for achieving what might have been achieved far more easily, by simply shooing away those who aren’t insincere (presumably the Sheikh or the Guru would know who is sincere and who is insincere), by simply ordering the hordes to disperse in clear firm terms, given that the words of this Sheikh or Guru will presumably carry authority with this flock that has gathered around him. No, that explanation -- about all of this being a means of ridding the Sheikh or Guru of unwanted followers -- does not make any sense either.


Over to you, One Initiated, if you would. As clearly as you can, please. (And I assure you once again, I’m not asking this in order to subsequently scoff, but only because I wish to understand the understand the believer’s interpretation. I promise I won’t pick apart any irrationalities -- as they might appear to me -- in your response, or criticize it in any way.)


Any other believers here, who might understand this parable (as well as agree with its message), your views would be welcome too. Perhaps you, Spencer -- provided you still buy into this parable, now after your disillusionment with RSSB (or at least, with GSD)?

(Scoffers and fellow unbelievers : Your views I am not asking for, not because I think you’re wrong, but because your view would likely be the same as my own view -- which is, that all of this is just a creative attempt to defend the indefensible -- and therefore add nothing to the discussion.)

Hello, 777. :-)

No, I meant, what is the point of the parable itself? This mud platform exercise, what is the whole point of it?

Sure, you're saying you know -- not believe, but actually know -- your Guru is true, you know the teachings are true. OK, let's grant you that, for the sake of the argument. But given that all of this is (as you say) true, then what is the point, exactly, of the whole mud platform thing?

(See my original comment for the full basis of my question. Of course, my question itself is short enough : a request to explain the believer's view of what the point of this parable might be.)

Appreciative Retard, can you please stop calling me a racist every time you post here simply because you don't want to read books and because things that can and have been scientifically measured and studied make you uncomfortable?

I'm sorry you're so emotionally attached to the idiotic concept that humans are purely the products of our environment and that genes don't exist, and we don't have parents etc, but your hidden emotionality isn't my fault. It's the fault of your glaringly obvious aspergers.

Maybe you don't like reading because you're so addicted to writing long meaningless diatribes that any sane person could write in less than 100 words. Reading takes time, and it means removing your massive ego for a few moments which you're not capable of. Again, not my fault. But continually slandering me as you do is getting old, and it doesn't make you look smart, which is obviously your intention, being the bugman that you are. It makes you look like you have giant female genitalia where most people have a brain.

One time I'm gonna link to something off topic. This is for you, you lying, pathetic small souled bugman -

https://medium.com/incerto/the-intellectual-yet-idiot-13211e2d0577

@ Jesse : That's an interesting article, thank you for posting but what's with the " it makes you look like you have giant female genitalia where most people have a brain " comment ?

Ouch !

Hi Appreciative!

Thanks for your comments.
You wrote
"One would think that, but that isn’t how it works, in practice. I can attest to this from personal experience. The mind has a way of presenting justifications for one’s biases and prejudices that often blind one to evidence that, in retrospect, appears glaringly clear."

Yes. It's like each day the part of me that wants to go back and try to imagine some justification, but that voice is dying a little more every day.

And the other voice that whispers to me" this is real. Don't cover it over... " gets louder and louder.

Bombay, I have problem with people who pretend to be intellectuals and who take themselves too seriously while also assigning moral value to people who disagree with their spoon fed pop morality.

Asking tedious long series of questions about things that have been thoroughly answered is a tactic that these fake intellectuals do to avoid facts that would hurt them to know. He's got an emotional and social bias that instead of confronting, he tries to deal with by calling me racist for the 1000th time.

I refrained from using serious insults, but I said that thing just to jab at the clownworld mascot's vanity. It sounds funnier than simply calling someone the p word.

Seeing through the lies of a minor cult is easy. Accepting facts even when the whole world will call you a monster is something else entirely and something people like him would never dare do. Appreciative is simply a half wit and a generic moral crusading coward. Too afraid to read one single book because it would require him to make bold changes to his worldview.

Jesse,

You need not to always behave like a reptile.
You don't have faith on the Master - but you are still a human being.

Do you realise that ?

The comments you mentioned above are so disgusting in nature,
that irrespective of being a believer or non-believer,
you represent how much filth you've collected in your heart,
you just always appeared to be covered in your own vomit.

Learn some sincerity.

Again, not even talking about any faith or religion or spirituality,
for the sake of behaving yourself like a human being,
learn some sincerity.

Funny thing, One.I was just calling you a snake too, because you are one. You're slimy, and you always will be dishonest and slimy until you come to terms with the fact that you're in a cult, and you're trying to trick people back into it who've left.

I'm extremely sincere. I'll tell you exactly what I feel. If anyone lacks sincerity here, it sure isn't me. I'm not up here lying about sach khand and fake love because of stupid old traditions. I'm not here to please people hoping they stay in RSSB. Ask me what I think and I'll tell you. This is a skill you have not acquired yet.

I'm here to mock people who protect religious criminals and who seek, intentionally or by ignorance, to destroy the lives of innocent people. Especially westerners who are far more prone to actually follow the rules and dole out money and time to these garbage gurus, unlike yourself who goes for free roti, you bum.

Jesse,

Now don't behave like a loser.
Your funny and ugly tricks are not going to work.

You've failed over and over again on me,
and you know that.

hi Appreciative Reader,

I completely understand what you are seeking,
and I do have answer to that.

I will respond you on that in time.

Love.

~OI

"hi Appreciative Reader,

I completely understand what you are seeking,
and I do have answer to that.

I will respond you on that in time.

Love."

https://www.cultwatch.com/howcultswork.html

Quote Bombay Blonde : what's with the " it makes you look like you have giant female genitalia where most people have a brain " comment ? --- Ouch !


Heh! That’s what our “Jesse” sounds like when he’s in disagreement mode, no matter the subject of disagreement (not just RSSB or religion).

He seems to imagine that random attempted put-downs are an acceptable substitute for rational discourse ; and what is more, he is seemingly unable to distinguish between wit and incivility and, lacking the former, tends to make liberal use of the latter. As you see, this female-genitalia comment of his that you quote (not to forget the liberal sprinkling, within that single short comment of his that you quote from, of wholly random and unsupported would-be insults like “retard”, “Aspergers”, “massive ego”, “bugman”, “lying”, “pathetic” and “small souled”) is his idea of witty and funny. He doesn’t seem to realize that it is to him that these words speak to, by the very fact of his using them (and using them in such profusion, without once actually substantiating any of it), rather than to me.

I believe our Jesse is a troll, that is, he only pretends to the identity and the back story and the ideas and convictions as well as expressions that he lets loose here, and so I no longer respond to him about anything he says to me. (You know, the “don’t feed the troll” rule). That’s a good enough rule in general, but of course it is possible that I am mistaken in this specific instance, and that there does live and breathe such a remarkable person IRL as this “Jesse” persona that we see here. If that is the case, then I suppose one would need to substitute the “don’t feed the troll” rule with a “don’t encourage douchebags by engaging with them” rule. And of course, in saying this I speak only for myself, and don’t presume to make this decision for anyone else, including you -- unless, that is, you (and/or others) happen to arrive at that same conclusion independently.

Here’s some links to the discussions I’ve had here with this “Jesse”, that led me to this conclusion. You may find them amusing. Just CNTRL-F within the threads linked with ‘Appreciative Reader’, and go. (You could also CNTRL-F with “Jesse” within those threads, except that might take a bit longer to reach the relevant portions, given that Jesse is a far more prolific commenter than I am.) For best results and a cohesive narrative, start with the beginning of our exchange, and move on to the end. Enjoy!


Link 1 : http://hinessight.blogs.com/church_of_the_churchless/2018/07/ive-got-a-new-non-religious-mantra.html

Link 2 : http://hinessight.blogs.com/church_of_the_churchless/2018/07/why-god-is-an-illusion-along-with-other-supernatural-stuff.html

Link 3 : http://hinessight.blogs.com/church_of_the_churchless/2018/08/open-thread-15-free-speech-for-comments.html (This last is carried over on to a second page as well)

Quote One Initiated : hi Appreciative Reader, --- I completely understand what you are seeking, --- and I do have answer to that. --- I will respond you on that in time. --- Love. ~OI


Take your time, One Initiated, no rush.

My visits to this site tend to be sporadic-ish of late, but I've bookmarked this thread, and will be sure to see your response when you post it, if with some lag. I'll look forward to reading what you might have to say.

Cheers!

Bump!

One Initiated, I wonder if you'd like to take a stab at this?

hi AR

Sorry I was away from this blog for last couple weeks
and also forgot to respond on this comment of yours.

This is going to be more of a discussion and self exploration,
instead of having a conclusive direct answers.
And the core reason for that is as they said:
"You have to become Saint to understand the Saint"

However, we can still go through the available literature and get some understanding of these incidents.
And can learn from what they are teaching to the rest of the world.

As you mentioned about Nizamuddin Auhliya, just rephrasing that again:

Nizamuddin Auhliya when climbed up the stairs of a brothel,
HIS 21 disciples were waiting outside, observing the whole scene.
When HE came down and witnessed there was nobody left except Amir Khusro.

Master asked: "Khusro, where is everyone?"
Khusro: "Master, everyone has left"
Master: "Why haven't you?"
Khusro: "Where should I? except your feet for me there is nothing in the whole universe"

Khusro was given the whole treasure for HE found him to be the worthy and not the one who can get tricked by the mind.
Those who have not established the unshakable faith on the Master -
can fall prey and eventually misuse the inner treasures. They are always given their due after death.

Such great was the state of the disciple Khusro, these two names have become inseparable.
If you read the related literature, whenever there is a talk about the Naizamuddin, you are sure to read about Khusro,
and wherever there is a mentioning of Khusro (due to his great poetry), you are sure to read about Nizamuddin Auhliya.

Same is the case with the Master Shah Inayat and HIS disciple Bulleshah
Same is with Master Baba Jaimal Singh Ji and HIS disciple Sawan Singh Ji Maharaj who eventually succeeded HIM as well as you know.

And I would love to add a well known account of Guru Nanak Dev Ji Maharaj and HIS disciple Bhai Lehna.
read for detailed view here: https://www.sikhnet.com/stories/audio/bhai-lehna-jis-devotion

Short gist is that when Master asked bunch of disciples including Bhai Lena,
to eat the dead body,
HE asked him: "What are you thinking?"
Bhai Lena: "Thinking where to start from head or toe"
Master: "Start from the middle"
And he started from the middle only to realise it was not the body anymore.
Bhai Lena, later named by the Master as "Angad" succeeded HIM as the next Master.


Another such lovely event:

At midnight, HE (guru Nanak ji) said:
"How beautiful the Sun is shining"
Lena: "Yes Master, it's indeed beautiful"
Master's sons: "You both have gone mad talking about Sun at midnight"
Master and Lena smiled, for they were talking about the grandeur of Thousand Petal Lotus.


These events tests not only their successors but also all other disciples in general too.
handful of them also share their incidents, but the readers being in tight grip of mind, who cares to believe ?

It's the same treasure for every disciple,
however the Master tests and remain cautious about the time when the disciple is to be given his dues.
maximum percentage falls in the category to receive it post death.
Because you see, it's not easy to not fall prey to the mind in this mindful world.

I know and can understand that it is not the satisfactory comment to the question you asked,
but we can surely get some hints by reading these sort of accounts,
and again best is that these are things which are to be explored in our own life and it can be correctly proven if we make ourselves worthy for it.

I completely believe that it can not be understood in it's entirety unless one reaches/realises the state of par-brahm.

Wish you lots of Love.

Dear One Initiated,

Thanks very much for your well-considered response.

I'm afraid you're right when you say, or at least imply, that your answer does not really address the specific objections that I'd raised earlier on, when asking this question. But let's that slide -- beyond, that is, my simply mentioning this here, now.

And absolutely, I do agree that it is difficult to fully understand another person or their motivations, unless we've actually accessed their mental "level".

My very best wishes to you too, my friend.

.

PS : That story of Guru Nanak and Bhai Lehna / Angad was new to me. What would you say, then, is the point of that story? I can think of two ways of looking at something like that : (a) They're basically using everyday words to refer to something more complex than what those words might convey to an uninformed person, much like the Buddha's famous word-less holding-up-the-lotus Sutra ; or (b) This refers to the importance of unquestioningly following the Guru's instruction. Do you think either one of my guesses is correct, and which one would you yourself go with?

@ AR and OI :

The " mud platform " disciple testing technique runs across all philosophies, it's not exclusive to Sikhism and / or to 18th century Sufism, or Shiv Seth or Sawan. There are volumes of texts in Farsi and other dialects that point at the fallacies of these " kissas " and a major portion of Farid and Naradev's work wasn't included in the Guru Granth. It is why the Sikhs focused on the " Sikhi " aspects whilst leaving out early Sufi influences.

But of course, these are cultural histories that are laced throughout with contradictions, you're entitled to believe in what suits your position of faith. I'm clarifying from an academic perspective that is devoid of absolutes.

There is a big difference between religious history and religious beliefs, though they often seem related.

Hello, Bombay Blonde.

I see. I wasn't aware of any other such references, beyond that Nizamuddin Auliya story. If you can supply any older references, or even simply recount any of these stories in your own words, they would be of interest to me.

In any case, as I'd said in my original comment about this fable (in the comment I'd posted to this thread on September 07, 2018 at 06:44 AM), I don't really understand the point of fables like these. I'd mentioned some specific objections to possible 'lessons' that the religious might draw from stories like these.

I appreciate One Initiated's considered response to my request, and I fully reciprocate his goodwill towards me, but his response does not really address the specific objections I had raised.

Dear AR,

The thing that you are looking for is inner help,
nothing of this outer explanation will help you to fulfil your thirst completely,
maybe it can momentarily but never with a lasting impression,
You have to spend dedicated time in meditation on daily basis without fail.

targeting unambiguously on the point raised:

The answers to the following simple questions, will also answer the points raised (again only a bit):

If you own a few shirts, which of them you will put in your wardrobe and which you will send to the laundry ?
Would you not put those which are clean in the wardrobe and those which are dirty in the laundry ?

If you have a single job opening for an accountant in your company and having 10 of your dear acquaintance applying to the job, will you not decide which will be the perfect one for serving the job by giving them an annuity problem to solve ?

Will you not want to be non-answerable to your dear ones with the help of this simple exam?

Some will even point fingers on you: "You being my friend, how did you dare ask me to solve a question? Being a friend I was just asking for your help to have me a position in your company."

Will you not respond to these friends: "You are still a dear friend, but I can not appoint you for the post of accountant, because you are not yet ready"?

Won't a king having 4 sons all appearing equal in skills, send them to real warfront, where they can even die, to decide who will be the next king?

Won't some of them point fingers to their Father for being so rude to have them faced with the death just because he wanted to decide of the next king?

Won't they call them a cruel father who can not love his children?

Won't there will be one kid who not only agree to his father's will but outperform every other one in leading the war and winning his father's confidence?

Won't a school conduct an yearly examination to test the children and decide who pass through and who fails a subject?

Won't the failed ones point fingers on the school for being so rude and setting the exam so tough?

Won't the failed ones even mentions that the schools are to teach not to test ?

The above mentioned subjects are all related to the worldly affairs and are paradoxical in nature, specially from the perspective of failed ones. The successful ones always finds it all right.

Spirituality is much more paradoxical in nature.
And specially the style of Saints is largely the paradoxical parable.
Those who HE finds worthy will get the place in HIS wardrobe, others have to go through the laundry, maybe many more times.
Everyone can become worthy. Because everyone has Crown chakra.

A beautiful and one of my favourite verse from Soami Ji Maharaj:
"Shabad karam ki rekh mitave
Shabad shabad se jaye milave"

meaning:
Shabad will destroy your karmas;
Shabad will lead you to meet Shabad.

How can Shabad lead you to meet Shabad?
Those who have realised it, are always in bliss.

Hi One
You wrote
"Some will even point fingers on you: "You being my friend, how did you dare ask me to solve a question? Being a friend I was just asking for your help to have me a position in your company."

Thank you for making the point of every poster who looks at the evidence of fraud, and says " Is this a true Saint? "

And those who say." how dare you ask! "

What do they know of the job, or the intimacy that tolerates nothing between us?

It is when other students assume the job of teacher and try to correct and censure every sincere question from every earnest student that you have a religion.
It is when other students make excuses for the teacher that you have a religion.

Because these other students, who have a social and / or financial position to protect, in defense of a flawed teacher, have corrupted the sole purpose of the school.


And one more point, One.
If our Guru is so perfect he can't say,
"Crap I fucked up! I will spend the rest of my days making this screw up right, I swear!"
He is no perfect Master.
If the Master is so flawless he cannot be held accountable, there is no need for him here. This is no Saint.

They come here just like you and I, and love is their only wealth.

You can't build an organization of self - appointed priests in that, sorry.

Let me put this another way, and please spend time with Him to get it right.

When Baba Ji says "well, I thought I could be successful in finance, but I cut too many corners. It's not my thing I guess, sorry..I'll spend my days trying to make it right."

That's the day his true lovers will rally round and say, "That took a lot of guts. The courage you have been asking of us all along! OK, we can be friends again."

And that is the day the false preists will scatter to the winds.

A Father who cannot admit of error is the worst father of all.
And any child who defends such a father has no love of the Father, only their position in the family.
Which isn't love at all.

But the children who see the Truth, yet cannot help but keep their minds on their Father, flaws and all, and want some closure, some acknowledgment. That is love.

Because that love persists in the presence of every good reason to walk away.

That is love, Sir.

Not the blind faith of priests who know nothing of love, and have no tolerance for the loneliness of separation.

And one more point, One!

Spiritual Wealth isn't fake love.

The Shabd IS love. The Shabd forces us to acknowledge ugly truths within ourselves AND in the world around us. Part of the development.

And it will not, cannot associate with corruption. So we have this love affair with Truth, who sets a high standard.

A high standard indeed.

The standard Brian has been setting here for many, many years.

@ Spence : That's a gentle counter argument, but a powerful one nonetheless - a consolation primer for confused Satsangis who are on the brink of leaving RSSB. I appreciate your thoughts, Spence ... thank you.

Hi Appreciative

I see you didn't get an answer to your request for an explanation about the mud platforms. The story was retold by Great Master. There are a few variations...

Centuries ago in ancient Persia a well known Guru saw that his days here were drawing to a close. He had several disciples of varying degrees of sincerity.

He told them all that on Sunday he would announce his successor. He said a lot of people from the surrounding community would show up. He will need a raised platform to give that Satsang and make his announcement.

He then asked his disciples to please make some platforms. He would choose the one he would speak from.

The next day he saw that every disciple had worked through the night making platforms. But there was one less platform than the number of disciples. So who had not made a platform? A short boy, Rav, of average build stepped forward. "I have no craft, so I offered to help the others."

The Guru noted the platforms were of varying heights and material, some of mud carefully molded into bricks and precisely stacked; , some of wood cut carefully and cross fit with hand hewn joints ; others of stone hand cut and carefully placed in a perfect little square of absolutely flat and plumb walls surrounding a mound of perfectly pressed earth.

Just as one appeared to reflect the highest craftsmanship, the next even higher.

And yet each one, according to the Guru, lacked something. And as he passed he gently and quietly pointed that out and asked kindly if the disciple would please tear it down and begin again. Some, he acknowledged, were lovely, but the location was wrong, not enough shade for the hour of the day he would give his talk and pronouncement, as rain was expected. Or not enough sun. Should there be no rain.

They worked tirelessly through the night again.

And the scenario played out much the same.

After three days the number of disciples dwindled. Some had questioned the sanity, pride or the cruelty of the guru, and rejecting him in frustration, walked away.

After the fifth day only Rav remained, and his mud platform, which took the entire day and night to build. It was not particularity elegant.

The Guru pointed this out and asked Rav to begin again. In fact the Guru was quite disappointed and said he would postpone the pronouncement until Rav could get the platform right.

Each day another platform, only marginally better, and each day a visit from the Guru, some small talk about how Rav was doing today, and some comment about seeing improvement, though with squinted eyes and a questioning look, and the customary request to tear down and rebuild.

Each day one or two of the ex-disciples who had left came and encouraged Rav to give it up. The old man was senile and a cruel streak had taken over, they said.

Rav just shook his head. They shook there's and walked away.

And so each day for months and then years it was the Guru, Rav, small talk, a walk together around the field and the customary request for another platform.

The entire discussion about a successor was forgotten altogether. As the Guru grew infirm, Rav took care of him. When the Guru could no longer walk, Rav carried him in his arms for the daily inspection of the platform, and the request for Rav to rebuild. When the Guru could no longer speak, Rav would ask, "shall I rebuild it?" And the Guru would smile, with the slightest nod.

And so it went until one bright and cool morning, as the dew began to lift upon the rising sun, and Rav brought the Guru to the field for the daily inspection, the Guru looked into Rav's eyes, smiled, and faded away, held in Rav's arms.

Upon his funeral, a few of the disciples returned. And when they heard the story of how this all had progressed, they each cried, as they saw how much they had lost, and were humbled by the wealth that Rav had gained.


Spence,

What you are doing is Spiritual Corruption.
You will realise it in a while.

The Love inside you will make you discern and let you extricate the mess.

@ Appreciative : I'm travelling for a fortnight. I would like to specifically address this particular fable and I'll fetch a couple of counter arguments that point at the dichotomies that exist and their cultural references.

In the meantime, you can read Amir Khusrau. Poetic versatility in Eastern traditions is always based on the ability to spontaneously improvise and no two narrations of Khusrau ( or their interpretations ) will follow one measured convention. You will also find multiple interpretations for Nanak-Maradana, Rumi-Tabrizi.

Fables have several connotations that stretch from ethical viewpoints to the idea of the hidden within the revealed.

Dear One Initiated,

That second clarification of yours was palpably heart-felt and passionate. Thanks for writing it out, my friend.

What you say at the beginning about “inner help”, that “nothing of this outer explanation will help you to fulfil your thirst completely”, that resonates with me. Not necessarily at an intellectual level, but at a more elemental, and aspirational, level. God willing, one day!

I enjoyed your wardrobe/laundry analogy as well.

I’d promised, when asking this question, that I won’t critically deconstruct your answer, and I won’t, but it would be intellectually dishonest of me if I did not point out, gently and without the least bit of disrespect intended towards either you or your beliefs, that I had already anticipated these arguments and already presented my objections to them right at the outset, within that very comment where I’d asked that question. I’m afraid none of what you say actually addresses my specific objections.

But that’s okay, no issues. I’d requested you to explain your belief and your particular, personal POV about these fables, and that is exactly what you have so kindly done. Again, my thanks.

Spencer, Thanks for taking the time to write out that lovely story in your words. I enjoyed reading it -- you definitely have a talent for writing absorbing narratives -- and what is more, the story, as you present it, does make sense. It says nothing to which my original objections might attach, and indeed I can think of no other objections to the story, not as you present it.

Your conception of this fable is about love and acceptance. It does not necessarily bring in some supernatural element at all, nor does it peddle blind faith or rationalizations for the indefensible. If I understand it aright, it does not really discount the possibility that the old man may actually have gone all gaga with age, but highlights the young devotee's staunch support nevertheless .

This could, as I see it, equally, be about (for instance, and with some of the details changed) a young boy’s love for his aged grandfather, or about any person’s persistent and staunch love for any one at all, in the face of apparently conflicting circumstances. It’s simply a story of love, and a beautiful story it is.

Lovely, Spence!

.

One Initiated, Did you not like Spence’s narration of the story? I think he presented it beautifully, and managed to strip away all irrationalities from the story. Why would you characterize it as “corruption”?

(Or might it be that you don’t refer to the story at all, in that comment to Spence about “corruption”, and refer instead to your ongoing argument about Babaji and these alleged financial irregularities? If that is the case, then apologies for the misunderstanding.)

Hi One
You wrote
"The Love inside you will make you discern and let you extricate the mess."

The same love washing me, washes you, and Baba Ji.

There is plenty of mess to go around.

Spencer, Thanks for taking the time to write out that lovely story in your words. I enjoyed reading it -- you definitely have a talent for writing absorbing narratives -- and what is more, the story, as you present it, does make sense. It says nothing to which my original objections might attach, and indeed I can think of no other objections to the story, not as you present it.

Your conception of this fable is about love and acceptance. It does not necessarily bring in some supernatural element at all, nor does it attempt to peddle in rationalizations for the indefensible.

This could, in fact, as I see it, equally be about (for instance, and with some of the details changed) a young boy’s love for his aged grandfather, or about any person’s persistent and staunch love for any one at all, in the face of apparently conflicting circumstances. It’s simply a story of love, and a beautiful story it is.

Lovely, Spence!

.

One Initiated, Did you not like Spence’s narration of the story? I think he presented it beautifully, and managed to strip away all irrationalities from the story. Why would you characterize it as “corruption”?

(Or might it be that you don’t refer to the story at all, in that comment to Spence about “corruption”, and refer instead to your ongoing argument about Babaji and these alleged financial irregularities? If that is the case, then apologies for the misunderstanding.)

Spencer, Thanks for taking the time to write out that lovely story in your words. I enjoyed reading it -- you definitely have a talent for writing absorbing narratives -- and what is more, the story, as you present it, does make sense. It says nothing to which my original objections might attach, and indeed I can think of no other objections to the story, not as you present it.

Your conception of this fable is about love and acceptance. It does not necessarily bring in some supernatural element at all. Nor does it attempt to peddle in rationalizations for the indefensible. It even admits of the possibility of the old man’s actually having gone gaga with age, without in any way taking away from the beauty of the story.

And, as I see it, your story could, equally, be about (for instance, and with some of the details changed) a young boy’s love for his aged grandfather, or about any person’s persistent and staunch love for any one at all, in the face of apparently conflicting circumstances.

It’s simply a story of love, and a beautiful story it is.

Lovely, Spence!

Hi AR!
Thx!

Father. Give me no power. Give me no beauty. Give me no strength. Give me no wealth.

They are in the way.

Brian, a small housekeeping issue please.


The other day, while commenting here, the blogsite algo kept swallowing up one of my comments (my comment in response to Spence’s story, above), as it sometimes tends to do.

I’d been multitasking at that time, and without giving it too much attention, I’d pasted back (and re-posted) that comment a few times, each time scribbling in a few things plus or minus. And finally, one of the posts did take.

I’d emailed you then, requesting you to delete all of my comments you might find in your spam folder that day. But I see that you seem to have gone ahead and published all of my comments in your spam folder from that day.

Perhaps you could delete those extra comments? They clog up this thread unnecessarily.

Here are the links to my (extra) comments here that you might delete :

Link/comment #1 : http://hinessight.blogs.com/church_of_the_churchless/2018/08/gurinder-singh-dhillons-lawyer-excuses-him-in-a-weird-mud-platform-way.html?cid=6a00d83451c0aa69e2022ad3b39d06200b#comment-6a00d83451c0aa69e2022ad3b39d06200b

Link/comment #2 : http://hinessight.blogs.com/church_of_the_churchless/2018/08/gurinder-singh-dhillons-lawyer-excuses-him-in-a-weird-mud-platform-way.html?cid=6a00d83451c0aa69e2022ad36dd35c200c#comment-6a00d83451c0aa69e2022ad36dd35c200c


Thanks!

This Man ...Cooke.. should be awarded for Creativity and out of the box thinking. As the gurus last standing disciple he deserves to get the Seat as the next GURU!

Verify your Comment

Previewing your Comment

This is only a preview. Your comment has not yet been posted.

Working...
Your comment could not be posted. Error type:
Your comment has been posted. Post another comment

The letters and numbers you entered did not match the image. Please try again.

As a final step before posting your comment, enter the letters and numbers you see in the image below. This prevents automated programs from posting comments.

Having trouble reading this image? View an alternate.

Working...

Post a comment

Your Information

(Name is required. Email address will not be displayed with the comment.)

Welcome


  • Welcome to the Church of the Churchless. If this is your first visit, click on "About this site--start here" in the Categories section below.
  • HinesSight
    Visit my other weblog, HinesSight, for a broader view of what's happening in the world of your Church unpastor, his wife, and dog.
  • BrianHines.com
    Take a look at my web site, which contains information about a subject of great interest to me: me.
  • Twitter with me
    Join Twitter and follow my tweets about whatever.
  • I Hate Church of the Churchless
    Can't stand this blog? Believe the guy behind it is an idiot? Rant away on our anti-site.