Bloomberg story shows Gurinder Singh Dhillon's shady business dealings

Today Bloomberg, a business publication, published a tell-all story about Gurinder Singh Dhillon's hugely complicated, and ethically dubious, financial dealings with Shivinder and Malvinder Singh, nephews of the Radha Soami Satsang Beas guru.

Download The Billionaires and The Guru: How a Family Burned Through $2 Billion - Bloomberg

Ari Altstedter wrote the story, "The Billionaires and the Guru: How a Family Burned Through $2 billion." I spoke with Altstedter by phone about the 35 years I spent as a RSSB devotee, and was quoted in the piece.

Still, Dhillon hails from a family of major landowners in Punjab, and was himself a businessman in Spain prior to his ascension at the spiritual group. So he took an active interest in the Singhs’ holdings, the people said.

“I think he’s a businessman in his mind first, and a guru second,” said Brian Hines, an American who was a member of the sect’s U.S. community for 35 years and has visited Beas. He now blogs critically about it, having since left.

Anyone who reads the story would find it difficult to argue with what I said.

Altstedter lays out in convincing detail how the Dhillon family has enriched itself while Gurinder Singh Dhillon has been the RSSB guru, an organization that has published a book, "Honest Living," whose ethical tenets go against the sort of shady business dealings described in the story.

Here's some excerpts concerning the Dhillon family's real estate investments. 

By 2010, another business opportunity emerged. Towns outside India’s capital, New Delhi, were experiencing a property boom that was turning farmers into millionaires. The Singhs’ resources were marshaled to help the Dhillon family build a real-estate empire.

Two companies, Prius Real Estate Private Ltd. and Lowe Infra and Wellness Private Ltd., were set up by people close to the guru, and although partly hidden by layers of shell companies, the Dhillon family had ownership interests in both, people familiar with the matter said and filings show.

Over the next two years, these firms together received about 20 billion rupees in zero-interest loans from the Singhs’ private holding company or its subsidiaries, according to the people and the documents. Funds were then disbursed to other companies controlled by the Dhillons. The Singhs owned a 51 percent stake in Lowe.

These loans proved costly to the Singhs, coming on top of other major financial commitments that were underway. From 2011 onwards, the brothers’ holding company went on to sink at least 12 billion rupees to cover losses at their investment banking venture Religare Capital Markets Ltd. Other loans went to Ligare Voyages Ltd., a money-losing charter airline. 

The Singhs’ holding company also loaned at least 7 billion rupees to cover losses at a firm that had been spun out of Religare to manage the financial firm’s administrative costs. The loss-making firm’s biggest expense was rent, much of which was paid to buildings owned by the guru’s family, according to documents and people familiar with the matter.

In some cases, Religare had no use for all the space it was leasing from the guru’s buildings and large parts sat empty, the people said and internal documents show.

RHC, the holding company, also made personal loans of 5 billion rupees to Dhillon family members, via a network of shell companies, people familiar with the matter said.

The Singhs funded all these outlays to the guru’s businesses and to their own ventures with borrowing. And a substantial portion came from Fortis and Religare, often through the same network of shell companies used to lend to the guru’s family, people familiar with the matter said.

Taken together, the zero-interest loans to Dhillon firms and Singh investments gone bad created a crushing debt load that required even more borrowing to service. Their total borrowings hit about $1.6 billion by March 2016, filings show.

The Bloomberg story has an illustration of how large amounts of money were shuffled back and forth via various actual and shell companies in efforts to keep the financial empire of the Singh brothers and Dhillon family afloat.

Note that the four arrows on the right side of the illustration show investments and loans flowing to entities affiliated with the guru's family. The three cross-hatched arrows on the rightmost side are loans associated with the guru, which total 25 billion. I assume this is 25 billion rupees, which equal $357 million dollars.

So, yes, the guru is indeed acting much more like a businessman than a guru. And a rather shady businessman at that, given the revelations in the Bloomberg story. 

A few days ago I published a post, "Gurinder Singh completely upends Sant Mat dogma,"  that described how Gurinder Singh Dhillon is acting like an earthy Zen master these days, not a guru with mystical powers who guides disciples to a heavenly region known in RSSB teachings as Sach Khand.

This fits with Gurinder Singh's upending of how a RSSB guru is supposed to act: humbly, earning his own living in an honest manner, not being concerned with amassing worldly wealth but rather with spreading spiritual wisdom.

I have no problem with Gurinder Singh Dhillon and his family making huge amounts of money.

I just have said, and will keep on saying, that this has been done while the guru supposedly was giving most of his attention to the spiritual elevation of RSSB disciples, and clearly this hasn't been the case.

UPDATE: Here's a link to a "mirrored" Business Standard story, "How Malvinder and Shivinder Singh burned through $2bn for their guru," plus a Mint story in both JPG and PDF form.

Download THE SINGH BROTHERS pdf

Comments

[Jesse]

I like how some of the companies serve a dual purpose of lender and receiver, but the things Gurinder is involved in all have one way arrows. All input, no output. His nephews must be pretty stupid to have loaned their uncle so much money, or they were hypnotized by the family cult themselves.

Anyway, wasn't one of the old RS sayings that we should always have our hand out to give, never to receive?

[Jesse]

One thing to notice in the article is that it says the Singhs denied all the allegations of wrongdoing during the Ranbaxy dirty meds scandal, and now they're denying any wrongdoing now and trying to blame someone else. I guess this is their Honest Living™

But also note how everyone says Gurinder is totally innocent. "He helped us out of love." How do you take tons of interest free loans from younger family members out of love? That's absurd. It also goes on to say Gurinder has nothing to do with the finances of RS. Anyone who has met him says he's intimately involved in anything and everything he can get involved in, including door handles in Chicago satsang buildings.

For those who claim this isn't a cult, please wake up. This is the definition of a cult. When everything around one person is falling apart, that person has made millions of dollars off of this collapse, and all the suffering people say "he's just helping us out" there is a serious problem.

Gonna speculate here that Gurinder knows damn well that he's considered a god, and used that power to keep himself just far enough out of the center to avoid any charges of complicity. Others had to sign docs and take titles, while he just got the money sent to him one way or another by his disciples.

[Neon]

Honest Living™. This is a cult AND a religion. I don't see how people still call it a "philosophy".

[Sarah]

Just curious, can anyone tell me what the Dera was like when Gurinder took over in 1990? I first went there in 2013. I’m wondering how much the size of the Dera grew from ‘90 to 2013. I know that it has grown and changed dramatically each year since I first went in ‘13.

Also, GSD said the overseas centers were “loss centers”. He said they were only there for people to have the opportunity to do seva and implied that they were losing money on them.

[Sarah]

Looks like he just made a lot of bad business decisions and had some bad luck. I guess that’s why it’s always risky for a spiritual organization to grow too rapidly. Ugh what a headache. I think the Singh brothers thought they were doing God’s work and helping the Dera grow. I’m sure GSD thought the same. Hopefully they can pay back what is owed along with fines. I say that because there are so many families and people dependent on the Dera for housing/retirement and of course there are a lot of very poor people in the masses who go there to Satsang every morning to get a free meal. Many people’s lives and families have been effected greatly by this current state of affairs and I don’t wish for those people to be affected adversely by losing their housing, healthcare, education and the food they need.

A lot of people’s well being is riding on this—must remember that. It’s not just about the guru or the Singh brothers. Hopefully they can get past this... with a lot of lessons learned.

[Superman]

It's so wired that most of the people who are now critics of RS faith didn't even took the pain to research this sect a little bit more and try to figure out which of these sects is genuine(soami bagh dayalbagh etc) but instead consider bias as the one and only place to represent the sect.
Half knowledge is more dangerous than none.

[Superman]

From all the UNBIASED study of books and history of this sect it seems to me that Bias is not a genuine representation of RS sect.Anyone can figure it out with a bit of research but no one actually cares because there exists two groups of people-
1.Blind followers who thinks their own Guru is God they want to keep religion and logical criticism separate.

2.People in this blog who criticise bias but not for finding the truth but to say to themselves that I am a scientific person and rest all these followers are idiots and blind followers like in any other religion

If there is something wrong, questions should be raised but criticising Einstein on the basis of Newtons work reflects preconceived bias and rigidness.
Utilise your time in knowing the truth and then start to analyze it critically if BIAS is fake then you should use your energy to figure out the genuine one but I don't think you all want that so enjoy beating around the bush without knowing the truth even when it was so close the whole time.

[Bob]

Superman you just predented even less than half knowledge. You even don't how to say Beas.

[Superman]

Off all the important points I have highlighted the thing which striked your mind was how I misspelled "Beas" with bias what a tenuous reply.
I wanted to write a editorial type of a comment to justify why you all have barely scratched the surface and thinking like you have won the battle but having my experiences with both-blind followers like the BEAS(or in fact in any other place) has and it's by product rigid atheist I think I saved a quit a lot of my time.But just seeing this blog having no knowledge of the genuine and ending up judging diamonds by analysing stones I could not resists.
I think I made my point and further conversation would be inane.

[777]

Sound & Light , whatever Gurinder seems to say
have big advantages

I hope that the brothers have it too

It makes you completely worry-less
as conclusion of the Song
Don't worry, . . . . be happy

The were just a little clumpsy I think
but have good hearts
They tried to be compassionate for patients way to long

This HC Judge they have
and helped Greenpeace
He will see the underlaying truth and not the gossip/slander

This time a well mean-ed Cheers
like always

777

[Arjuna]

@ 777. What was the point of you message???

What are you trying to say or convey?????

[Arjuna]

@ Superman- long way from Krypton hey😀

What’s your point in plain English? Are you for or against that Bloomberg article???

[Osho Robbins]

@superman

So which branch of Radha Soami do you follow?

And how do you know yours is the truth?

[777]

@Arjuna asked
What are you trying to say or convey?????

That my wife and I received much more in precisely
sound(s) and light(s)
than was promised

and that I hope the two brothers can take that heat / karma
and that certainly justice will prevail
with this clean judge

and now you ask : . . . Who wouldn't like to be invulnerable ?

777

ps
the more and more other 'cult' members here

Concerning BabaJI > How can I judge a Jeeva I see inside
and saw outside in unbelievable light

[Superman]

I don't need to explain genuineness of the sect study with open mind without biases and you will reach to the conclusion just like I did.
Eg For Bias-The founder Soami Ji clearly mentioned his successor Salig Ram and Jaimal Singh name was no where mentioned.
Meaning of R.S as given by beas (as far as i know) is just a synonym but it is the real and the basic sound current resonating everywhere if surat shabd yoga performed correctly is can be heard in the innermost regions clearly.It has nothing to do with Radha Krishna
And finally blog (Gurinder upends....)clearly doubts its authenticity.
Do this with all major sects read their masters writings and reach to the conclusion.
Reason I don't want to mention it here is because no matter what you present it will still termed under propaganda.
The only solid way to know the truth is the performance of surat shabd yoga if done under right adept you will see the difference but in today's world majority of them do not practice it and the life of a Guru becomes easy as less difficult questions to answer and in turn more difficult for a seeker to know the truth.
Since I have written this long some extra lines
The basis of Surat Shabd Yoga-
Should be done under the right adept
There should be some love and devotion for the supreme being RS(obviously for most of them-no they simply do it for curiosity) and finally when nothing happens during yoga "church of the churchless"happens after yoga.

[777]

@Sarah
I don't know about what you asked about fear
Pls tell me
7

[Arjuna]

@ Superman - where you there when Soami ji nominated his successor. Perhaps you have a DeLorean and time travelled!!!

I wouldn’t pay to much head to history in books or scriptures - most of it is made up. Read Harry Potter - it’s more fun and creative 😊

Have a great day

[OshoRobbins]

@superman
you write:
"I don't need to explain genuineness of the sect study with open mind without biases and you will reach to the conclusion just like I did."

Really?

Everyone believes that?
That is why they follow their own path.

they all have their own reasons and their own evidence.

but it's only true for you - and it seems obvious only to you.

Sure, Swami Ji mentioned Rai Saligram.

but he also mentioned about four other successors.

and he said "My teachings are about sat naam and Rai Saligram has created Radha Swami Mat - let that also continue"

All of the radha soami teachings are duality teachings
and if that is what you seek (which most people do) then just choose one
any one - because all it will do is keep you firmly in duality
and you will be happy because you have inner experiences
and that will convince you that you are on the right path.

[Superman]

LOL,see that's the main reason I didn't wanted to get in this mess in the first place.You all are so proud of atheistic values that the doors of uncomfortable truths are shut.
And by the way Surat Shabd yoga was provided only for this purpose i.e see and realise for yourself that what really exists Hogwarts or Sunn etc.

Interesting note:Who Soami ji nominated is written in the book updated on the BEAS own website I wonder if it was a made up why the hell they omitted their own hero?(Jaimal)
And yes what Gurinder upends about Sant Mat teachings may also be false because I was not there too maybe you were that's why you believed.

Have a great day to you too(Whatever is left :p)

[Arjuna]

@ superman - you don’t have a clue what I believe or don’t believe.

Goodbye and order Harry Potter via Amazon - you sure need to read that matey!!! 😀

[Arjuna]

@ superman - wise words below and I agree with what you say but one needs a perfect Master to experience that.

“And by the way Surat Shabd yoga was provided only for this purpose i.e see and realise for yourself that what really exists Hogwarts or Sunn”

[Superman]

@ OshoRobbins you surely didn't realise the crux of my point and I know nothing more will come out useful.
Sorry if you found my earlier comments offensive.

[Arjuna]

@ superman - I apologise too brother - what the hell are we arguing about.

I’m just as lost as the next man.

Take care and all the best

[Jesse]

Superman, all Radha Soami sects are lame. It's just not a very interesting religion. Sar Bachan is a really horrible book of poetry that will likely be forgotten soon. To be honest, most north Indian religion over the past 1000 years have been embarrassments to humanity. Kabir is as lame as Shiv Dayal

[Bob]

Superman: LOL,see that's the main reason I didn't wanted to get in this mess in the first place.

Bobby: But you did.

[Arjuna]

@ it’s al turning out to be pants - anyone fancy a 🍺 pint or drink. Could be the way to true enlightenment 🍺

[OshoRobbins]

superman wrote

"@ OshoRobbins you surely didn't realise the crux of my point and I know nothing more will come out useful.
Sorry if you found my earlier comments offensive."

Well - explain. It's not a matter of usefulness anyways.
nobody is trying to convert anyone.

Just chatting - voicing our opinions - for what they are worth.

I didnt find anything you said offensive.

[Sarah]

@777
Be blessed and always remember the verse “the peace that passes understanding”. It’s somewhere in the Bible.

Truth is self evident. Sight is sometimes blind.

I’m signing off...

[Todd Chambers]

Brian, I added a link to the article in your Wikipedia page, FYI. : )

[Superman]

@Jesse yeah I hope you have come to the conclusion after you have exhausted your brain's limit of doing surat shabd yoga under right guidance.

[Jesse]

Superman, I'm not a backward farmer from the 12th century. But thank you for your religious nuttery.

[Arjuna]

@ Osho - morning. Hope you are well?

May I ask as to why you left the path?

I found your duality answer fascinating - my question is if RS is a duality path - what do we do now to seek realisation?

I have an idea and Jim was spot on in his response - what’s your take ?

[Jesse]

What if duality just is. What if there's no alternative? Maybe there'e no overcoming it, unknowing it, realizing its falseness or anything else.

Maybe we come here, do stuff, and then die and it's all just oblivion. Nothing. Oneness in nothingness... but that oblivion is distinct from existence. Duality strikes again.

I like trees, lightly roasted oolong teas, certain physical exercises, my wife sometimes, and a few friends. There could be war some day, and tortuous hellish conditions that preclude me from ever enjoying those things again.

If, god forbid, that ever happens I'll have no time to contemplate the cosmos and ideas about souls. Human nature would take over and adrenaline would become my god. At that point it's hard to imagine I'd ever be able to accept that duality doesn't exist as I see first hand many examples of the living becoming the dead.

[superman]

Jesse,I have not seen a group of 12th century farmers recording frequequencies from 3HZ to 126 Hz during transcendental meditation done using Superconducting Quantum Interference Device and results and experiences obtained were matched with the writings of "lame" Kabir centuries ago.(I just barely scratched the surface not mentioning mathematical modelling frameworks etc)
Enjoy your 20th century materialistic science just as my neighbour enjoys worshipping cows.
No mater how much you all atheist think how modern you are but in a nutshell you are ignorant just like my 90 year old aunt who thinks using left hand for handshake is bad luck.

[superman]

I think no further conversation is needed because just like I have written on my previous comments it is just a dead end ending up wasting of our time.

[Jesse]

Super bugman,

Nobody cares about your measurement of 3 hz and 127 hz. What is the significance of any vibration at all?

I have a lot of synthesizers and make super cool bass sounds around 40 hz with a lot of kinda dissonant harmonics that'll make you dance uncontrollably and possibly vomit on yourself. Plus I don't remember Kabir mentioning any frequency of anything so it's likely you're just throwing cool sounding words around hoping to look smart.

If you think anyone is going to convert to another cult because you randomly name machines and associate them to meditation, you are really looking for bottom of the barrel humans anyway.

Good luck on your journey to the abyss.

[Arjuna]

@ Jesse - if you are young enough join the Marines. 😀

[superman]

"That's why I said I barely scratched the surface"
Your reply and logic reminded me of my aunt when I said not using left hand during handshake contains no logic
Read my comment again I said "experiences" (sounds of the particular region etc) not frequency while referring to Kabir
Regarding conversion read all of my previous comments and try to find the sect I mentioned other than beas lol
Still I know there is only one way to stop this bs conversation as (I have a lot of work to do)-
Yes all religions including RS are fake or outdated.
Atheist are the most modern and forward looking people.

Have a great day mate.

[arjuna]

@ Superman - no Atheists are not the way forward

I believe there is something there- but what I do not know.

[Jesse]

I read a bit about the SQUID machines, Superman. Took me about .1 seconds to figure out that you don't even know what the thing is if you're talking about measuring normal frequency ranges with it since that's not what it does.

Super, you said "Regarding conversion read all of my previous comments and try to find the sect I mentioned other than beas lol"

This was pretty tough to figure out and I struggled for an hour to find an answer, but how about this comment you made wherein you mention 3 sects of RS?-

"It's so wired that most of the people who are now critics of RS faith didn't even took the pain to research this sect a little bit more and try to figure out which of these sects is genuine(soami bagh dayalbagh etc).....

Posted by: Superman | August 16, 2018 at 11:45 PM"

Or how about the other comments where you mention "Salig Ram" and other non RSSB gurus. Get your memory checked, big guy.

[arjuna]

@ Jesses - OMG (pardon the pun) you really are on one today? :-)
Get to that gym and punch bag:-)

[arjuna]

@ Superman -why use that name? I find it strange. The only "Supermen " I know are the ones who are risking their lives around the world in the armed forces so that you may sleep well at night and write on a blog.

PS Im one of them but not 100% fit as I tried to push my Superman body to fair and got subjected to kryptonite lol. Seriously

[Jesse]

Good advice, Arjun. I was working out earlier, but it didn't burn a whole lot of mental energy.

Maybe I need to join that MMA gym not to hit a bag, but to spar and get hit a few times in the face to put me in a humbled position.

[arjuna]

@ Jesse - hello buddy! I am having that issue right now - i.e.not burning burning enough mental and not sleeping well! It sucks!!!

My weight has gone up to heavyweight - @ 17 stone (and don't laugh) and 2 pounds. Fat lol.

Run, eat well and drink enough (not beer ha) and stretching exercises - some weights first and then bag work with pad work in the ring. And then Sparring. I love hitting people and being hit back lol.

All the best

[superman]

Yes I should have written -Where did I mentioned from which sect I belong.Wrong wording due to multiple things going in parallel sorry about that.
But those were just examples regarding holistic study of this faith.
Where I said from where I am related ?
They were mere examples.And even while using them I didn't exchange any kind of specific information for any specific sect which promotes biases towards a particular sect.
But Regarding SQUID-
After reading your comment I don't think nothing good will come of that (just like everything we discussed)as even if I spend my lifetime explaining that nothing good will come out of it due to preconceived notions. Try to explain evolution to some fundamentalist muslim to get this experience.
Do you really want to drag this even further and continue like 12 year old's? because you had a chance to really discuss something good as an intellectual in a scientific way but here we are.
On a positive note:You are finding truth so am I ,good luck for yours.

[vinny]

Lame justice system in third world countries makes it happen. Land reforms were never implemented in India that led to rural poverty. All they know is lynch, rape or indulge in terrorism and then say Ram/Allah or whatever

[arjuna]

@ Vinny - You a christian? If I many ask

[superman]

Arjuna lol I used superman to denote a person trying to do a thing a normal man does not do-Trying to find some truth going around place to place gather information which seems sensible to me and moreover try to meditate 2 4 hrs a day.
I am not a superman but trying follow one!!!
Main reason I am so critical here is because I am studying sant mat since 4 5 years and haven't finished yet(heck not even half of it) so I thought it would not be appropriate to criticise a thing or subject without knowing everything about it that's all.
But criticism should be there else in no time faith can turned to blind faith.
Everywhere I see is extreme criticism not constructive criticism.

[Arjuna]

@ superman - I have not criticised any path - except that I seek transparency.

So who is your Master?

[superman]

Currently I have no master but I have researched quiet a lot and I will join one which I think is genuine then practise transcendental meditation ask uncomfortable questions like you lot did if I feel some difference (according to the books ) then I will know who is genuine if not I will keep wondering and if nothing happens then I will look into something different.
I don't know about your nationality but I am Indian and some strange love for the higher being is embedded in our DNA :) which keeps me going unlike most of you who just after having bitter taste with one sect stopped further development and decided to become critics.
One thing which I like about the west is they question their master and his teachings which is not so common in India and as a result number of pseudo Guru's keeps on increasing and the real one is unknown for most of the people.

[Arjuna]

@ superman - don’t waste your life in searching for a Master - no man can be God - someone once told me that after saying “what has your Master done for you?” He was right!!!!

Yes I’ve had a crap life so far - but I fight in without God!!! I am what people call a good man! You are in India I take it. Land of false Gods. Seriously if you need to do something serve humanity is not what the lord says is seva too.

Forget kabir etc - you seem to be stick In the past!

All the best fella

[Arjuna]

@ superman - if you are mega rich or a Bollywood star - you are half way there already lol.

Sorry just my humour! Took me a lot of time to get rid of the brain washing in these paths - don’t fall for them. They could be paths to the anti christ - who knows. Chill out

[Arjuna]

@ superman - ps when you find this God in human form let me know! You ha e plenty to choose from

[Jim Sutherland]

@Superman,......are you Super, man? Or a Poser boy?

Here is a real Super Man, that happens to be an RSSB Initiate, initiated by Master Charan Singh in the early 70s.

We don’t all hear about the real bright, MENSA type Mystics who have been “opened up” after being initiated by a real Sant Mat Master and continues Conciousness Exploration instead of criticizing his Master.

https://richardalanmiller.com/interviews-2017

Cheers,
Jim Sutherland

[Jim Sutherland]

https://richardalanmiller.com/about-dr-richard-alan-miller

[superman]

I don't live in the past I don't worship Kabir I admire him same as Christ or Krishna or Mohammad or even Tyrion Lannister if there is something useful in bible or geeta I take them and leave the rest.

[Osho Robbins]

When someone, anyone, including me, first hears the non duality ideas, that is all they are. Ideas.

First I had duality ideas about regions, masters, souls reaching sach khand and having tea and biscuits with sat purush while they talk about old times all sitting around the log fire. Later I had ideas that non duality means ONE.

Seeing my account above, someone will exclaim “wait just a minute, what are you talking about? There are no log fires in sach khand. No tea or biscuits. And you can’t just sit around talking to sat purush”

But why not? And how do you know ?

Then you might reply, “because you merge into sat purush”

But if you merge, then only sat purush remains not you.

Someone else says, no no no you don’t get it. Of course I will remain. I can’t die.
I will BECOME sat purush. Can’t wait.
I am consciousness itself. Awareness. Etc.

We humans like to play with ideas. It’s fun.
But then we get so good at it that the ideas replace reality.

So “merging” is just an idea.

Do we want to merge or stay separate?

Merging sounds like a nice idea until you realise that it means the end of you.

No more you.

That character you are so fond of, will no longer exist.

Fucking nightmare? Or eternal bliss?

Which one?

Is non-existence a good or a bad thing?

Well it depends on how you think.

Eastern religions version says you have karmas and will be reborn again and again. And your purpose is to end the Cycle and merge with god. So merging is success and therefore good.

Western version. You want to get to heaven and spend eternity with Jesus or someone else. You don’t want to be non existent. So it’s bad news to be non existent.

Atheist version. You are just a body and this is your only life. Once you are dead then you are dead. Deal with it. Non existence is the only option. So its neutral.

So merging means different things to different people because they all have different ideas of what success means.

All you have is ideas and meanings.

There is a book called, “never mistake a memo for reality. “

We mistake an idea for reality.

Before I wanted to get to sach khand for some reason.

Now baba says there in only the ONE, so now I want to get to the ONE.

He says it’s a realisation.

So now the question arises How to Realise?

The goal is always far away and we are trying to get there.

Because all we have is ideas.

Get it? Or not yet?
Maybe tomorrow after I do some more meditation

[777]

""" Maybe tomorrow after I do some more meditation """"

Yes
and then, . . . while you type on your keyboard to us
you hear the overwhelming Sweet Sound(s) of Truth all the time
and you can't explain

"One needs TWO to dance the tango"

777

[OshoRobbins]

We humans like to play with ideas. It’s fun.
But then we get so good at it that the ideas replace reality.
- from my comment above

For example you read the Koran and you take on those ideas as the truth.
You are now a muslim.
You will hang out with other muslims who will confirm that YOU ARE RIGHT.
Cool, so you feel happy you have the truth.
Everyone who disagrees with you, only disagrees because he has not studied the koran.

Or you read the bible and become a christian (any brand you choose)
or you might become a jehovah's witness.
Other Christians might say that you are not a real christian but you know better.
you will hang out with others who have the same belief and your beliefs gets stronger and soon you KNOW its the truth.

Same with any brand of sant mat.
whether you follow Rajindar, RSSB, Soami Bagh group, etc etc
you are 100% convinced because you hang out with the same followers.

You might leave one religion and join another.

nothing really changes.

one belief is replaced by another.

Still you are blind but you claim to have eyes. You claim to know.

actually you know jack shit.
but you are convinced so much you think you KNOW.

I sometimes watch a youtube channel "The Atheist Experience"

where he debunks people's beliefs by asking them questions they cannot answer. They all want to justify their beliefs.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gn7tW2zkwxE

in this one, he is engaging with a mormon.

it's always the same theme.

he asks the question "How do you know"
and people create a whole web of answers and they get demolished one by one.

So we are all living in a self-created world that we think is real.

When i was young, RSSB was my whole life.

My main ambition was to meet God and I wanted that above everything.

I even remember going to wembley stadium and looking at Maharaj Charan singh through my newly bought telescope, and saying to my sister,
"WOW - there he is - GOD himself come down to earth"

My faith was absolute and it was my life purpose to make spiritual progress.

Imagine I had met gurinder back then and he said there are no regions.

I wouldn't know what to do with my life.

We live in a world of beliefs and we cannot imagine those beliefs not being true, so we defend them with our life.

[arjuna]

@ Osho _ I do get it .

However where does hell now exist in this new Oneness.

And what is Kal's role now?

This i sgetting interesting now

[Jim Sutherland]

@Osho who says we “don’t know Jack Shit”

Well, Bro, many people out side of Sant Mat DO know Jack Shit, and even a few of us that still go inside.

I know Jack Shit.

“There was once a young boy named Jack Shit. Jack Shit was the only son of Awe Shit who married Oh Shit. In turn, Jack Shit married No Shit. The couple had six children: Holy Shit, Give a Shit, Full of Shit, Bullshit and a pair of twins: Deep Shit and Dip Shit. When Deep Shit was an adult, he married to Dumb Shit, a high school dropout.

After 15 years, Jack and No Shit had a divorce and No Shit married Ted Sherlock, she became No Shit Sherlock. Meanwhile, Dip Shit married Lot of Shit. Full of Shit and Give a Shit married the Happens brothers, they had a double wedding. The newspaper invited everyone to the Shit-Happens wedding. Bullshit traveled around the world and returned home with an Italian bride, Piece of Shit.”

😇😜
Jim Sutherland

After all the wedding ceremonies and family reunion, everyone lived happily ever after.

[Arjuna]

@ Osho - I too remember Wembley.

One question as been bugging me - if Master is all seeing - how come he didn’t see all this scandal coming?

After financial crash the Queen of U.K. was taken to the City and shown all the technology with regard to trading and financial systems with their up to date monitoring of world wide shares etc. She was very impressed and turned around to the smartest guys in he room and asked “ if you have all this how come none of you saw it coming?l”

😀

[777]

He is NOT All seeing
He sees All what HIS MASTER wishes he has to know
and even that at the exact right moment

Knowing everything doesn't fit in the human brain

But HE has the power of the Word(s)
and his disciples know is ( minus 1 %%% )
but Himself, HE doesjust His Job
and is much more amazed than we are

777

[vinny]

Stages described in sant-mat region of void/sunn, region of great void/ maha sunn are actually stages of consciousness in which there is no activity of mind in the form of desires , thoughts and emotions and therefore ending the individual identity of person/living death. Jesus, Buddha and Saints are just inspiration to experience those stages of consciousness.

[Arjuna]

@ 777. Who is your Master ?

[Arjuna]

@ Viinny - you keep writing that easterners still from the West.

The crusaders were thieves and burnt Arabic advanced mathematics and the East India Conpany were nothing but thieves. Got anything to say???? The west are thieves to this day as are the east.

[777]

@Arjuna
Charan Singh Magaraji about 50 year ago

@Vinny
This here is also our mind construct - Scientists actually agrree

In the astral thoughts materialize like lightning - no time to reflect / prepare
No aura_protection , so you cannot fake - Everybody sees your real nature/personality
So, you cannot easily learn
Even here at low speed , one cannot un)learn habits / thoughts

Therefore people of equal thoughts are together
Holier/purer/lovelier people high
Killers & tamas Low

In astral everybody sees God/Brahma/Yahweh - as a great Light
Atheism is difficult to maintain for long

777

[Arjuna]

& 777 wow Charan Singh - he smiled at me when I was 10 years old and got up from his chair and moved to the edge of the stage with his arms folded to look at me. I loved the way he looked down at me - one if the best moments of my life .

Thank you for sharing

[Arjuna]

@ 777. You said he see what his master alllows him to see lol

Did you go to Maharaj Charan singhs satsangs ???

Gurinder would have the same power as Charan as he would be Charan now.

Sorry don’t buy that one. Back to the drawing board.

The only theory I have is that it’s his play.

Please don’t respond as I get bored easily - if you have nothing valid to say.

I am seeker after truth - and not after Harry Potter descriptions of regions! There ain’t any!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Juan]

Jesse wrote:
One thing to notice in the article is that it says the Singhs denied all the allegations of wrongdoing during the Ranbaxy dirty meds scandal, and now they're denying any wrongdoing now and trying to blame someone else. I guess this is their Honest Living™
But also note how everyone says Gurinder is totally innocent. "He helped us out of love." How do you take tons of interest free loans from younger family members out of love? That's absurd. It also goes on to say Gurinder has nothing to do with the finances of RS. Anyone who has met him says he's intimately involved in anything and everything he can get involved in, including door handles in Chicago satsang buildings.

… IMO The Singhs have no other alternative than to deny the allegations and keep them and Gurinder as well away from the dirt.
Gurinder before ascending was not a businessman in Spain. He was working in Malaga with Hiru Balani/Jack Balani. Jack Balani is the RSSB representative in Spain. This article is all noise, nothing more.

This article is noise. Generally in India it will be nearly impossible to prove all these allegations. The enquiries will be conducted, all the authorities involved will get their share and the matter after time will disappear.
It is difficult to do business in India for medium and large scale companies without Shell companies, and further in this case, if not all, in reality, most of the transactions which appear in their books could be just Book Entries. I think it’s a common practice in India.

[Juan]

Sarah, the Dera was not that much developed till 1997, though I haven’t been there after 2012. A big change after Gurinder has taken over. You can get some pictures in Beas, maybe in a Photo Album ( Gaddi Nasheen).
I think GSD is right that many overseas centers were running at a loss. Presently, I think at least the Spain center is making money.

[Arjuna]

@ Juan - so what’s your point?????
The scandal is no big deal and it’s all ok???? Is that your point - you say it’s just “noise”

[Osho Robbins]

@arjuna

Hell?
Fucking destroyed. Innit.
Three sundays ago when I was on the mic with Baba
We demolished all the regions
Heaven and hell also got demolished. Sorry.

And Kal?
Dead.

[PJ]

Juan -- how is the Spain center making money? You mean that the people around there are donating more than it costs to insure and maintain?

[Arjuna]

@ osho - lol love the way you respond ! Thank you for clarifying.

Your response made me chuckle the way you write we destroyed it lol

[Juan]

@ Arjun, I think its just noise, a way for the authorities and press to make something. I don’t mean that the matter published is not right, but these stories are normal in India.
Probably in the West it could have been considered as a Big Scandal.

It is in no way going to effect adversely to RSSB nor to the reputation of Baba Gurinder. Normal satsangis would hardly bother to even hear this.

Only the educated young class would bother a little to hear these stories, but lately Baba has utterly failed to attract the younger generation except very few youngsters from RS families in India.
In Europe, except U.K. even the younger generation from RS families is not at all interested in initiation.

[Jesse]

I'd be willing to be that the centres that are losing money have made up for those losses and much much more in appreciation.
Plus, if Gurinder had the power to sell the properties and personally take money from them then, it's all profit for him. Satsangis bought the property for him. Selling at a 99% loss is still a huge profit for a guy who only had to arrive and talk for 30 minutes once a year.

[Juan]

@ PJ Yeah. Spain is receiving more in donations than expenditure.

[Arjuna]

@ Juan - fair point. I think the older rssb in the U.K. ain’t really interested. However they go to Haynes like clockwork - to pray for money from God or get their kids fixed up or themselves for that matter ! Or excaoe their pitiful existences at home.

Who knows and who cares really - I was more interested in find the right path!

[lllllvvvvv]

To the charge that "the Dhillon family has enriched itself while Gurinder Singh Dhillon has been the RSSB guru," I have to wonder why no one has yet surmised that if the Dhillon family enrichment via spiritual connections with RSSB, this hardly began with Gurinder's guruship. And I stress the If - - all we know from the available information is that loans were made. What the story doesn't note is that businesses sometimes (actually, quite often) fail, and when businesses fail, outstanding loans are an unfortunate fact of life. Information about the terms of the loans and much else is a guess.

I can't say if I agree that Gurinder acts more like a businessman than a guru, as I (like everyone else here) has no idea how much time he spends on either. But, I can say that if being an RSSB guru means earning one's living and not simply living off family fortunes from age 35-80, then perhaps the guru who does devote time to business interests is more the more authentic.

[Jen]

777 says: In astral everybody sees God/Brahma/Yahweh - as a great Light 

@Jim,

I think you have written that we should not go to the light when we die because it is a false light and we will be trapped again. Can you please confirm, thanks.

[Brian Hines]

Todd, thanks. I've emailed you about another change that it would be good to make,

[Jim Sutherland]

Jen asks Jim,...”I think you have written that we should not go to the light when we die because it is a false light and we will be trapped again. Can you please confirm, thanks.”

Me: I did not write that.,It was in an Article a Fundamentalist Gnostic wrote. As for me, I plan on merging in to the Light, every chance I get.

Jesus said he was the Light of the world, while he was in the world.

The Bible tells us that every man that enters the world brings a portion of Lght.

The Bible has a lot to say about Light.

“The spirit in man is the Candle of The Lord.”

Charan kept quoting the Bible Verse “If thine eye be single, thy whole body shall be full of Light.

Shine your Light from the roof tops.

Cheers,
Jim

[Jesse]

"But, I can say that if being an RSSB guru means earning one's living and not simply living off family fortunes from age 35-80, then perhaps the guru who does devote time to business interests is more the more authentic."

Average people with the means to retire early often do so for religion. I know a guy who retired about 15 years earlier than he needed to so that he could devote his time to a Church.

Like all these ideas we discuss, the guru by nature of his title alone is supposed to be better than normal people. If he's claiming that the only important thing is god, or "the one" or whatever and that we need to devote maximum time to this effort, it makes no sense that he himself has been chasing money for money years after he could have retired and left a fortune for his kids.

[vinny]

If these Indians are so honest why they are not talking about failed land reforms in India and continuing feudal landlord system.
https://www.firstpost.com/india/land-reform-failure-only-5-of-indias-farmers-control-32-farmland-2763816.html
After reading the above mentioned article, now utter Ram/Allah/ ek onkar/Whatever.
These Indians are bunch of liars and cheats.

[Arjuna]

@ vinny - you are tarring all Indians as land grabbers and the West has never invaded other lands. Loooooool.

Repeat after me:

“I will study the crusades and the East India Company”

Goodbye 👋

[Tim Rimmer]

Enjoyable discussion folks.

Hey Jim - remember that list of religions of the world? I mentioned it a while back. I think it starts with the Taoist “Shit Happens”, then lists a good selection of religions. I like the Buddhist take - “Shit Happens, but is it really Shit?” and the Rastafarian “Let’s smoke this shit!”

There was a young lad called Jack Shit
Whose nose had a dirty great zit
But because of the ONE
His ego was gone
So he just didn’t care, not one bit!

May the fart be with you :-)

To Osho/Arjuna - why religious followers/believers have to be “Right, and that they Know” - reminds me of a picture my wife and I saw in a museum at Shrewsbury (UK) years back. It showed two crusader knights on horseback. The caption read “Isn’t life simple when you know you’re right all the time” - summed it up pretty well for me.

Best wishes to all.

[Jim Sutherland]

@Tim regarding the “Shit Happins”List.

The best one I liked the most on the list was,..from the Jehovah’s Witnesses who said,
“Open your door and let us come in. We will tell you all about that Shit!”

I can really identfy with the J.W.s because I studied with them for a couple of years also, before my Born Again experince in April 1977. I had a weekly JW Bible study in my home, plus I went to Kingdom Hall Wed. And Sun., plus went door to door every Sat. Morning with a Partner, “doing Service” and believe me, when ever I got inside any one’s door, I ” told them all about that shit!” I had all their books, ( which I burnt in my Fireplace after I left the Cult.) They have one little green Book that has a Rebuttal for every known argument any one has ever used against them. I never got Baptized as a JW, but got close. I really went off the Deep end for a couple of years after I left that Cult. I became a JW Cult Buster as Brian and other RSSB Exers have become against RSSB. The Straw that broke the Camel’s back for me while with the JWs was when one of my best JW friends during a Bble Study in my brand new Home I just built, told me that he really liked my house and planned to claim it for him self after Armeggeden happened and Jehovah killed every one left on earth except the Baptised JWs. left behind to repopulate the scorched earth. Only 144,000 JWs left earth and went to Paradise, and those 144,000 were all chosen before I ever even got involved with them, so I was Shit out of luck any way I looked at it.
“What Fools we Mortals be!”

Make sure to remove the snappers from your beans before you eat them.

Cheers,
Jim

[777]

Remarkable :

The HC judge wa years ago promted away because he is honest

Very recently he has been called back to Delhi High Court

He will take all aspects in consideration
like the brothers much to long having supported
patient who had no other way to go

There is also naivity and lack of proper
financial schooling but that's my own take
because I had that too
in my carreeer but for less zeros was that

The judge will see all that
The rest is karma

77

[Osho Robbins]

@Tim Rimmer

about being right.

"I am right.
I have always been right.
I will always be right.
There was this one time when I thought I was wrong but . . . . .
I was mistaken"

[sangeeta]

Blind faith in Guru's is destroying Family life.
I am witnesss to it.
Happy to know facts will sooner or later come out, thanks to this article.