Gurinder Singh's billionaire nephew rumored to succeed him as RSSB guru

This morning someone emailed me a link to a juicy story, "Brothers Singh and the squandering of a business empire."

The brothers referred to are Malvinder and Shivinder Singh, the nephews of Radha Soami Satsang Beas (RSSB) guru Gurinder Singh.

RSSB is headquartered in India, but has a worldwide reach. I used to belong to this spiritual organization whose guru is considered to be God in Human Form by true-believing devotees. 


I say "true-believing," because Gurinder Singh, shown above, has been promulgating revised versions of the RSSB teachings, so it is unclear whether the guru himself believes in v.1.0, v2.0, or v3.0. The latter versions downplay the "perfect living master" dogma that was a core tenet of v.1.0.

What I found most interesting in the story was a section called The Radha Soami connection. I've boldfaced the part about Shivinder Singh being expected to serve as the next RSSB guru.

Radha Soami Satsang Beas (RSSB), a self-described “philosophical organisation” was founded in 1891 by Dera Baba Jaimal Singh. Shivinder is the nephew of the sect’s current guru, Gurinder Singh Dhillion, referred to as “babaji” by followers. The previous guru, Charan Singh, was Shivinder’s maternal grandfather. Gurinder is the fifth leader of the sect, which is based out of Beas near Amritsar.

Film actor Shahid Kapur is one of its followers and his wedding with Mira Rajput was facilitated by the sect. Their wedding was held at a farmhouse owned by Shivinder. Gurinder played a pivotal role in putting Shivinder and Malvinder at the top at Ranbaxy after a battle for control of the drug maker followed Parvinder’s death in 1999.

Shivinder is expected to succeed Gurinder. “Gurinder has looked after Shivinder as his own son and he is expected to take over the leadership of the sect,” said a person close to the family, who did not want to be named.

There have been significant business links between Fortis Healthcare and Religare Enterprises (both promoted by Malvinder and Shivinder) and RSSB. The family of Gurinder Singh, including his sons Gurpreet and Gurkirat, owned a significant stake in Religare, as reported by Mint in July 2015. Gurinder’s son Gurpreet served as the chief executive of Religare Health Trust (RHT), a subsidiary of Religare. Singapore-based RHT is the holding company of Fortis Healthcare.

This wasn't new news to me, since back in 2016 I'd quoted someone who commented on my blog post about another livemint story, "Shivinder Singh's ties with low-profile sect go beyond spirituality." 

Looks like Shivinder is on his way to become the next Guru ..... What do you think Brian and Dr. Lane?

Well, I didn't really know what to think then, and the same is true now. All I can say is that the business of being an Indian guru has changed a lot from the time I was initiated in 1971 by Gurinder Singh's predecessor, Charan Singh -- who was Gurinder Singh's uncle.

Back then the RSSB teachings said that spirituality should be job #1 for people seeking God-realization, not making gobs of money. But as I've reported in previous blog posts, Gurinder Singh has become hugely rich himself during his stint as guru, and he is intimately entwined in the shady business dealings of Malvinder and Shivinder Singh, as detailed in the recent story about them.

Here's the posts:

Radha Soami Satsang Beas guru makes $254 million

Religare's money connections with the Radha Soami guru

Gurinder Singh's son becomes CEO of Religare subsidiary

"Dirty money" tied to RSSB guru's Ranbaxy wealth

Billionaire Shivinder Singh plans to volunteer for RSSB guru

There's also mention of the connections between the Singh brothers and RSSB in a post I published recently, "Devastating criticism of Gurinder Singh Dhillon by a RSSB insider." Here's one of the comments included in that post that were left on my blog by the insider. What's said below will make more sense if you read the story about the Singh brothers' business problems.

Nietzsche. Great ! You've made the effort to backtrack into Gurinder's current financial status and what you've stated sums up the facts very well. I'm relieved that what I've been harping about on the COTC ( that makes me sound like a conspiracy theorist in the process ) has some validation from an independent fellow blogger... :)

 

My additional thoughts are : Gurinder ordered the Ranbaxy sell-out, and as a faith policy, Shivinder and Malvinder do not over-rule anything HE decides. The final " go ahead boys " was given by Gurinder. I know this because the celebratory cheers resounded with a boisterous " Baba-ji does not make any mistakes ! " that came from none other than Sunil Godhwani, Baba-ji's right-hand man.

 

Before the news hit the press, everyone knew that a chunk of that booty would be pumped into Religare. Of course, Ranbaxy's health was generously inflated, but the sell-out was the best possible move from a financial standpoint — considering that the Singh Brothers made quite a mess of the succession when they inherited the company, which subsequently reflected in the company's performance over the years.

 

There was a joke in the corporates circles here that Parminder Singh was in a big shock in heaven when he learnt that Gurinder had advised his sons to sell Ranbaxy. His reaction was : " What ? Who the f*** is he ? " ( LOL ) This entire Religare affair that Gurinder's having with the Singh Brothers is in direct conflict with his role as a Guru, whether he's teaching 1.0 or 3.0. His insatiable appetite for wealth is sick, specially when there is no charitable initiative for the poorer sections of the Sangat that make up for ninety-five percent of his following.

 

IMO, Gurinder wants them to remain hungry and foolish otherwise they will not be interested in the salvation promise, which is why I think that Sant Mat 3.0 will never be introduced to the langar. You are absolutely right about the Mc-Donald's style of operations at Fortis. Also, the services they provide are the Micky-D's equivalent of fries and nuggets. It is all about the money, with little regard for ethical practice and human life.

 

But, it is interesting to note that post Ranbaxy, none of the Singh Brothers' businesses have been particularly profitable. It is too early to call, but Fortis is struggling. And, going forward, the competition will intensify. Religare is hemorrhaging under the acumen-devoid leadership of Sunil Godhwani and is showing no signs of recovering. Religare continually gets mini bail-outs from the huge cash reserves that the Singh Brothers are currently sitting on, but the well could dry-up in less than a decade if their current run continues.

 

It is also possible that Gurinder could make some bad ( not-so-GIHF ) decisions. Our comments here are forming a valuable archive for those who will seek to find out more, specially after the radical shift in the Sant Mat teachings. I like the Japanese quote, it applies to all of us.

The livemint story has this to say about Sunil Godhwani, who, as noted above, is called the guru's "right-hand man" by the RSSB insider. (Baba-ji is an honorific for the guru).

Religare was run by the Singh brothers’ one-time close confidante Sunil Godhwani from 2001 to 2017, before he decided to step down. “He was introduced to the Singh brothers by the RSSB,” the person close to the family said, adding that Godhwani was also an ardent follower of the sect.

So there are very close ties between the Singh brothers' business dealings, RSSB, and Gurinder Singh, which basically, can be summed up as a complex mess. Here's how the livemint story ends:

Godhwani could not be reached for comment. The Ranbaxy business dynasty is now in disarray. With a slew of legal and regulatory battles ahead, the Singh brothers have limited elbow room to start a new business or revive remnants of existing ones. A rich legacy has been squandered.

Comments

[jentil]

Nobody can be sure about the installing for the next Guru right?

Baba Gurinder is still there, so why would one think about that?
Maybe he is going to help Babaji..

They are only a'' pointing finger'' anyway.

Because one has to ''work''or not :) for ones own self.

[jentil]

Nobody can be sure about the installing of a new guru.
Maybe he is going to help Babaji..
Everything is possible..but Baba Gurinder is still here.
So why do people think this already?

[Jesse]

"A rich legacy has been squandered."

That last line applies to "sant mat's" siege on Indian spiritual traditions as well.

RS in its best form does little but to serve as a weaponized perennial philosophy that instead of freeing us from the negative and stale aspects of tradition, actually traditionalizes and codifies anti-social behavior and makes a ritual of anti-ritualism.

I.E, at many of the local satsangs I attended we were told NOT to pray for others because various reasons such as (insert book quote here). Imagine believing in a good God, but thinking that to ask it to have mercy on a loved one was somehow a bad thing.

That is the insanity of the dark RS cult.

Maybe they could change their mission statement to "caring about others is bad, because only the I matters. Give Money PLZ"

[Spencer Tepper]

I posted links earlier providing some insight.

It has to do with the huge risk the brothers took to support the Clinton initiative as the major supplier of HIV medications at or below cost. Ther ran the business to extremes, and then had to cover the fines with a series of intercompany loans, drawing the attention and anger of investors.

The payoff? One million lives were saved.

The cost? Their careers.

I'm not sure that qualifies for sainthood.

But it does qualify for corporate heroism on an international scale.

[Jesse]

"The payoff? One million lives were saved." lol muh links

Stop cutting and pasting that line, genius.

We have no idea if even one life was saved let alone 1 million. This is one of those amazingly bad ways sycophants attempt to make their heroes look good. For all we know, there would have been 20 million lives "saved" had Clinton foundation not gotten involved. Being that only their supposed solution was implemented, it's pretty hard to compare it to the competing solutions which they blocked.

Furthermore, the Clinton's might be the most shady family in American history, and there is significant evidence of their involvement in corruption and murder at very high levels, contrary to what propaganda outlets like Snopes and all major "news" publications in USA have attempted to conceal with subterfuge.

That RS would be within 10 degrees of separation from the Clinton dynasty should be enough to raise major suspicion in any relatively sane person.

[Spencer Tepper]

Jesse

You wrote
"For all we know, there would have been 20 million lives "saved" had Clinton foundation not gotten involved.Being that only their supposed solution was implemented, it's pretty hard to compare it to the competing solutions which they blocked."

Really, what were those other solutions?

Some facts would help here Jesse....

Please provide links to facts, not more conjecture....

[Spencer Tepper]

Reviewing the annual reports and press commentary around Shivindar's leadership of Fortis another picture emerges.

Normally, at least in America, a health system buys up hospitals that are distressed in order to make them profitable. They do this in two ways. They cut costs at the hospital or they shutter the hospital. Over one hundred hospitals and many more clinics have been closed over the last ten years in America in this way.

At Fortis Shivindar's pattern was only to close one or two hospitals and instead to keep most all of the tiny ones losing money open through intercorporate loans without real collateral, either to the hospital or their vendors keeping them supplied.

Again, drawing ire from investors on behalf of patients.

As a hospital management consultant for 30 years I can't help but admire what he did, knowing that can't last forever. He basically torched his career to keep patient access to care in as many places as he could get away with.

[Jesse]

No Spencer, RSSB's #1 apologist on Hinessite, I won't provide you with anything, especially when what I'm saying is common sense and not reliant on specifics. This is why you won't address the hypocrisy that is repeatedly pointed out in the Godman's behavior of money-chasing.

I don't think you're a mature person and I don't appreciate the application of double standards that you seem to clutch like a little teddy bear when your cult's shady dealings are held in front of you.

By the way, this isn't difficult logic or reasoning I'm applying here. There are TONS of competing (for profit) initiatives to throw money and drugs at the 3rd world which involve backroom deals with nation states for exclusive rights in exchange for benefits to despots, of which there are no shortage in Africa. That you think this basic fact is "conjecture" only highlights your insincerity and lack of goodwill in discussions.

Having read a number of your comments, I'm guessing you are employed by RSSB. The banal consistency of your replies is textbook generic PR.

I hereby declare myself to be Jesse, the King of Conjecture. Be gone RS sycophants!

[Jesse]

"He basically torched his career to keep patient access to care in as many places as he could get away with."

Conjecture. You don't know his motives or where the money went. You're just assuming that his failed business decision was a saintly act.

There are many millions of dollars missing, most of which have raised suspicions due to the fact that they were sent through multiple accounts before ending up in Guru-cuz's personal holdings.

But I guess it's just Guru's mauj.

[Jesse]

Here's another thing to contemplate concerning your cult leader, Spence-ophant.

This conglomerate known as the Dhillon Group is supposedly part of, Gurinder Dhillon's, sphere of influence.

https://www.dhillongroup.com

Some of the highly spiritual products they offer are liquor and lottery as is shown on the front page of the website.

Now, this isn't like the caste based requirement of Bhagat Sadhana who had to be a butcher. The Dhillon caste isn't required to sell lottery tickets and liquor as far as I know.

So tell me, why is God selling lottery tickets and vodka, but telling everyone that both things will lead to being born as a worm?

Now, it may be that this Dhillon group is not affiliated with THOSE Dhillon's, but it's the top search result when I searched for another one of their public enterprises.

[Spencer Tepper]

Jesse

The intercorporate loans that drew attention were to hospitals or small vendors with no collateral.

Shivindar and Malvinder rolled these into new loans when they came due.

Generally, corruption comes from large organizations, well healed organizations with deep pockets, like unseemly large donations to your corporation's charity.

What we have here is the exact opposite, loans to small hospitals and small vendors who have no actual collateral to pay for the loan, and that would include organizations in distress.

Those aren't people with big money to line your pockets. Those are tiny organizations trying to stay alive.

This is a picture of executives that could not bring themselves to shut down small rural operations struggling to stay open and continue providing patient access to care.

Not great business management. But heroic for those communities.

Do some homework please.

Take a look at the Fortis articles.

And then please share what you find.

[Spencer Tepper]

A closer look at the connection to their own personal finances strengthens this picture.

They used their own personal Religare shares as collateral to keep these small goals and small vendor loans afloat.

They basically put up their own money as collateral to help distressed hospitals and clinics.

No money rolled the other way. None.

Or if you find that please, I would like to read about that.

In exact contradiction to your depiction, these guys are Healthcare heros.

Shivindar might not be meant for the business world. He might be meant for a place where you put your own reputation and livelihood at stake to help patients.

[Jesse]

Spencer, you're a cultist. There's nothing else to say.

These guys could get caught naked in a room full of toddlers and you'd say they were being so gracious to teach the kids about anatomy.

[Brian Hines]

Jesse, you're correct about Spencer. He reminds me of people on the Titanic who refused to believe the ship was sinking, even though the evidence was all around them.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sinking_of_the_RMS_Titanic#Preparing_to_abandon_ship_(00:05–00:45)

Spencer's eyes are closed to anything about RSSB that conflicts with his blind beliefs. He has eyes that could see the truth, but he doesn't use them.

This is common cultish behavior. I saw it countless times during my 35 years in RSSB, including in myself. It takes courage to break the bounds of a religious organization that has many ways to keep people caged in the group's belief structure.

Hopefully one day Spencer, along with others, will see the light. Until then, his comments will reflect his enclosure in a mental darkness as regards the truth about RSSB and Gurinder Singh..

[manjit]

Shivinder Mohan Singh/Net worth
1.02 billion USD
2018

Humanitarian hero.

[Brian Hines]

Spencer, here's an idea: comment on the livemint business story about the Singh brothers and their ties to RSSB. You like to distract and deflect, rather than face issues directly. If you believe that you know more about this subject than the reporters who wrote the story, give us a point by point critique of what they wrote.

Meaning, quote from their story, then show why it was wrong, documenting your assertions. This will be more productive than you doing the distract/deflect thing.

Note that I shared direct quotes from the story, then added my own documentation to support what I said in the blog post. It'd be great if you'd do the same.

If you believe that the Singh brothers are doing a great job running their health care enterprises, which goes against the livemint story, and other stories I've read about the problems the Singh brothers have gotten themselves into, tell us specifically why you are right, and the reporters are wrong.

Gosh, they just happen to live in India (I assume) and make a living reporting on Indian business news. Maybe Spencer Tepper knows more than they do, from your perch overseas. Hey, it's possible. We just need to see the evidence of this.

[Jesse]

Brian,

Even without going to RSSB Spencer is attempting to paint the ongoing fraud case as one of charity. But his view of charity is that the Singh Bhais are like RobinHood, stealing money from a publicly traded company and giving it to the poor without the approval of the shareholders whose money has allegedly been stolen.

What's perplexing about this is that charitable people usually use their own funds, and the Robinhood stories generally aren't about billionaires stealing assets from middle class shareholders in partially undisclosed sketchy investment ventures in foreign countries.

But somewhere in the convoluted Spence Defense there must be a lot of wisdom hiding. It'll be revealed after death, assuming more simran bhajan.

Just you wait!

Jesse

[Arjuna]

@ Brian and Jesse. I agree with both of you about the billionaire brothers.

Something is definitely not right about them or their links.

[Jesse]

Arjuna,

The thing is that were these guys just some corporate hustlers, nobody would care outside of the business world. I know I certainly don't care about the activities of greedy people who don't publish materials claiming to be God.

What makes it all so ugly is the whole "my uncle is God and he's running sh*t so f**k the law, morals and other dumb things" aspect. It's really unbecoming of Godbro and his divine sevadar nephews.

Jesse

[Arjuna]

@ Jesse I agree but who can bring them down and get rid of the lies?

[Jim Sutherland]

The way more of these new Revelations keep being exposed, regarding GSD using RSSB as a huge Tax Exempt Religeous Carpet that all activities that normally would be taxed, are swept under the RSSB Carpet, that only GSD has the Key to unlock is like a Detective Novel.

Its looking more like David Lane WAS being led by Anami Purush when he was writing his Anti Gurinder RSSB Articles, and instead of pushing away Seekers to their Spiritual death, he was actually saving them from being sucked in to RSSB and spared from being shocked at witnessing all of these shady secrets being exposed many years later!

Those Seekers that Lane drove away from RSSB, do not have to agonise now, trying to decide whether to exit the Organization that certainly is looking more like a Cult as these Revelations are being exposed, or stay and become another Apologist defending RSSB and GSD.

Only question is, where does Lane stand NOW, other than being an Agent using RSSB inside information to sell his Books to curious RSSB Inners and Exers , wondering if they should lead, follow, or leave the Organization.

What Fools We Mortals Be,....as my Dad liked ro say.
Jim Sutherland

[vinny]

Only question is, where does Lane stand NOW, other than being an Agent using RSSB inside information to sell his Books to curious RSSB Inners and Exers , wondering if they should lead, follow, or leave the Organization

Only a fool would think this way, David Lane has not taken money from viewers to disclose Chandian effect. Videos are free of cost posted on neuralsurfer, text about Chandian effect is available free of cost on internet. David Lane could have kept it secret and started gurudom empire worth billions of dollars collected by donations but he disclosed everything free of cost. I don't expect such honesty from any hindu, sikh or muslim; that is why they will always remain filthy, dirty third world nations also called developing countries.

[Jesse]

Arjuna,

Nobody cares about this stuff other than ex-satsangis so I wouldn't expect much along the lines of mass exposure.

You can see Tara's comments about "village mentality" in India and compare RS to the Ram Rahim cult to get a better picture. I mean that guy was making expensive films about himself as a superhero and he didn't even have businesses. It was all openly being done with his sangat money. All the while he was being accused of rape and a mob of his followers numbering in the thousands came to fight the police when they showed up to arrest him.

Radha Soami is very time in comparison. It's just a few dollars and some family based promotion perks.

He said it in a harsh way, but Vinny's comment extrapolates from what Tara said about "village mentality" and points to an uncomfortable thing to observe, which is that this sort of corruption is widespread and accepted in India and likely a cause of many of their problems that won't go away in the foreseeable future.

I read news from the subcontinent which is why this RS stuff looks so small to me. Think of the fact that members of the Sikh religion went as far as to fake the need of political asylum to get VISAS to Austria so that they could assassinate an apostate religious leader, which was just one of many assassinations done in the name of religion by Sikhs around 2010. Or consider that there are brawls in Sikh temples literally on an almost daily basis in USA and Canada.

Hindu Gurus can get accused of rape and molestation by dozens of people from different continents, and instead of calling for an investigation, the highest levels of Indian government defame the accusers and call for them to be jailed, which sometimes happens.

If the happenings of the subcontinent got even half the international exposure that the Catholic Church gets, I think you'd see a lot less 'OM' and Ganesh tattoos amongst westerners.

In short, don't expect change in our lifetimes. These things are so culturally ingrained that it's not certain anything will or even can change.

Jesse

[Dungeness]

RS in its best form does little but to serve as a weaponized perennial philosophy that instead of freeing us from the negative and stale
aspects of tradition, actually traditionalizes and codifies anti-social behavior and makes a ritual of anti-ritualism.

You and your enablers appear to be weaponizing opinion and
innuendo as well. You're attacking an RSSB master, his family,
and, most importantly, the RSSB teachings too.

I can't comment on press reports but are you suggesting that
legal indictments will soon be issued? That Gurinder's nephews
will be taking the Fifth? Or Babi Ji will soon step down to
vacation in the Bahamas and spend "more time with family"?

What "negative and stale aspects off tradition" do you refer
to? How does RSSB "make a ritual of anti-ritualism"? Can you
cite passages in RSSB literature that codify "anti-social
behavior"? Or is it only based on anecdotal accounts of "mean
sevadars", "confusing, multi-versioned theology", "heartless
lack of charity", "rejection of traditional prayer"?

We're all entitled to our opinions but I distrust agendas that
evidence such ferocity, imbalance, and mean spiritedness.
Ones that make ad hominen attacks on others in their fervor
to be right and hammer home "the obvious facts" to opposers,
Ones that scurrillously bandy around words like "cult" in their
summary judgments, then opine faux concern that one day
the poor delusional saps, who just don't see, will "come to
their senses".

[Jesse]

-"What "negative and stale aspects off tradition" do you refer
to?"

The negative and stale tradition of foolish people arguing with me with their tender feelings.

-"How does RSSB "make a ritual of anti-ritualism"

By telling people on repeat that "we don't have rituals, but all satsangs around the world must be at 9AM, you need to sit in the same spot every time you meditate, and 10,000 other things DO YOU EVEN READ THE BOOKS DUNGENESS?

-"Can you
cite passages in RSSB literature that codify "anti-social
behavior"?"

Here you go. One long quote telling people to give up familial tradition and begin funding some punjabi dude who calls himself God- https://www.rssb.org/publications.php

[Jesse]

"Ones that scurrillously bandy around words like "cult" in their
summary judgments"

"We are a cult." Charan Singh

Just quoting your Guru, Dungeness.

[Jesse]

"You and your enablers appear to be weaponizing opinion and
innuendo as well. You're attacking an RSSB master, his family,
and, most importantly, the RSSB teachings too."

Sorry to write so many comments, but this is hilarious.

Weaponized opinions against a MASTER? I wanna see this dudes credentials. Give me proof of the mastership.

As far as attacking the teachings, I've yet to figure out what RSSB™ teachings even are. They have no proprietary methods as far as I've seen. Just standard yogic mantra stuff with ear thumbs, which may or may not be original. I personally doubt that ear thumbs are unique to #1 Yog Science Master Religare Fortis.

[vinny]

These third world cockroaches were living in dark until discovery of electricity by Christian Innovators was gifted to these creatures, free of cost. Even the royalty on invention of electricity generators will be billions of dollars which these third world cockroaches stole from the Christians free of cost.

[Jim Sutherland]

@Vinny,....there must be a few fools other than me, to cor a momemt, imagine Lane selling his Books for money.

https://www.amazon.com/Mystery-Dr-Johnsons-Death-Spiritual/dp/1565431391/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1531346263&sr=1-1&keywords=dr.david+lane+books

Jim

[777]

Really happy
i don't have
to check this out

If I will be 'alive'
I will let you know
if Shivinder
will emit
Sound and Light
plus Love

777

If Kirpal, Ishwar
and Darshan
went astray
anything can
happen

[vinny]

@Vinny,....there must be a few fools other than me, to cor a momemt, imagine Lane selling his Books for money.
David Lane has spent his life, his money and even risked his life while doing original research to bust propaganda machine of gurudom, he is entitled to sell his research even if it annoys piggybacks who are enjoying the repercussions of Chandian effect free of cost. If anyone has not done original research in his lifetime and was waiting for heavens to be gifted by guru, he is entitled to be frustrated by work of innovators like David Lane.

[Jesse]

Vinny,
I am likely more sympathetic to your views than most people who come to this blog, but you're oversimplifying your view on the situation immensely. Yes, there were technologies which weren't native to India which Indians now use. This is standard all over the world. Things are invented by someone, others use the inventions later.

If one country, culture or race is wrong for using electricity they didn't invent, then so is every other country and individual who didn't invent it.

An Indian invented email, so am I wrong for receiving email notifications for comments i post on blogs? I don't think so.

It wouldn't be honest to say that they paid no price for these things either since the uninvited Brits starved a ton of Indians to death. Maybe millions of them. They probably would have been fine with never having seen "bijli" and living their lives as they had for millennia. Most technology is forced upon those who don't want it and it ends up ruining their lives and culture anyway.

Curse those who caused the proliferation of laptops and cell phones.

Jesse

[Jen]

Hi Jesse,

Wow, you're like a fireball, here to wake people up! Similar to tAo and Tara combined.

Warning to others: proceed with extreme caution LOL

[veeper]

Why does the one who is God even need money? Seems to me that there is an explicit contrdiction at work here.

[Jim Sutherland]

Vinny writes,.....”David Lane has spent his life, his money and even risked his life while doing original research to bust propaganda machine of gurudom, he is entitled to sell his research even if it annoys piggybacks who are enjoying the repercussions of Chandian effect free of cost. If anyone has not done original research in his lifetime and was waiting for heavens to be gifted by guru, he is entitled to be frustrated by work of innovators like David Lane.”

Me: Vinny, you come accross as being some what of an opinionated Christian Bigit, and quite sarcastic. I’d go a few rounds with you in the Octegon, if I knew your real Name, but won’t waste any more time with a Pseudo Troll. Present your earned, or experienced Credentials, if you want to be taken seriously.

If you read all of Lane’s work, you might be surprised to see, most of what he has written and researched , has been puiggybacked off of others. He first likes to Parrot their writings, then pick them apart, line by line, trying to destroy them. Look at all of it closely, and then tell me I am a fool, and FOS.

You obviously have nit read the Books he has piggybacked off.

Lane has made himself the ultimate Authority, on Guru Bashing.

God never died and pointed Faquir Chand, as his Successor! ( Nor Lane)

Peace,
Jim Sutherland

[Spencer Tepper]

Brian
You wrote
"Spencer, here's an idea: comment on the livemint business story about the Singh brothers and their ties to RSSB."

That article simply had two relevant pieces of factual information.
1.Ranbaxy 's owner for several decades was Charan Singh' s son in law. And therefore they are all related by blood.
2.Gurindar has major personal investments in Religare.

What other actual facts can you cite about the relationship of RSSB?

The organization's funds are not discussed at all.

No where in that article did it say, for example, that the Singh brothers were in charge of managing the RSSB trust.

The fact they are related by blood is no crime. They are relatives.

The fact that Girindar invested in Religare is no crime.

I get your conjecture, but just don't see the facts you are claiming to be found in that article.

What you have failed to show are any facts in any article proving funds were illicitly moved from RSSB to cover personal losses or into anyone's personal account.

You make that conjecture often but the live mint article doesn't go anywhere near there.

In short, since you have made the accusation, the burden of proof is on you, and you have come up empty.

If you look into articles of about the Singh's, Fortis and Ranbaxy you will find what I wrote above.

But you have failed to provide any factual support for your contention that RSSB funds are being diverted for personal interest.

When you do, please post here. I'll read it.

[Jesse]

Spence-Defense,

Go read all the other articles here and on the net (hint: use google) about the Fortis Ranbaxy etc connection and tell us why a human God is on the board of directors, getting grandfathered into essentially free shares in companies, holding shares in his wife's name, telling the entire world that he's a simple farmer (which Charan dishonestly did too), and forcing dietary requirements on employees and other board members.

Also tell us why God sells liquor and lottery tickets and chases after money while saying he doesn't chase after money and that liquor and lottery tickets are evil.

It's the hypocrisy which is the crux of the matter, Spence, not solely the possibility that Thee Manlord isn't directly involved in the allegations of fraud that Fortis is being investigated over. Even if they and he are innocent, what is he even doing?

I mean, personally, I want to know why God, who is a already at least a deca millionaire in USD, even allowed Himself to get so close to a case of corporate fraud. If I were God, I'd stay away from cases of corporate fraud that get me tied up in federal investigations. But that's just me, the non-God.

And also, were I God, I'd probably refrain from inviting my nephew who is intimately involved in the alleged fraud, to come stay at my cult palace to take a break from the pressure of being investigated for "siphoning off Rs 500 Crore" from a company I or my wife held a major stake in.

But again, I'm not God. Maybe God's just wild like that. The Lord be " 'bout that drama. "

Jesse

[Spencer Tepper]

Hi Jesse
Brian often says that those who make claims of truth hold the burden of verifiable proof to defend their claims.

A similar statement is also appropriate. Those who claim wrong doing by any human being hold the burden of proof to defend their claims.

Having wealth, growing wealth is not itself proof of greed. It can just as easily be a reflection of hard work and intelligence.

But to know the difference you need verifiable proof.

I'm sure you or Brian would not wish to be falsely accused of wrong doing.

So this is a golden rule thing.

I did read several articles about Ranbaxy and Fortis and it appears the Singh brothers used their personal shares of Religare stock to keep small hospitals and their suppliers who were losing money afloat as long as possible.

That's my interpretation of the facts presented, and I've reviewed that in my earlier comments.

But if you wish to stick to your accusation of wrong doing I'm happy to look at the evidence. Truth Invites Inspection.

[Brian Hines]

Spencer, it took me less than 30 seconds to find several Bloomberg stories about Fortis wrongdoing. You should acquaint yourself with this thing called "Google." Have you heard of it? Here's some links, along with some excerpts.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-02-09/indian-tycoons-are-said-to-have-taken-78-million-out-of-fortis

India’s tycoon Singh brothers took at least 5 billion rupees ($78 million) out of the publicly-traded hospital company they control without board approval about a year ago, people with knowledge of the matter said.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-01-28/billionaire-singh-brothers-accused-in-lawsuit-of-siphoning-money

India’s billionaire Singh brothers, already embroiled in one international legal battle over alleged fraud, are being accused of "diversion, siphoning and digression of assets" by a New York-based investor in a lawsuit filed in the High Court of Delhi.

https://www.straitstimes.com/asia/south-asia/india-is-said-to-order-three-month-probe-into-fortis-religare

India has ordered its fraud office to inquire into reports of alleged siphoning of cash at Fortis Healthcare Ltd. and Religare Enterprises Ltd. by Malvinder Singh and Shivinder Singh, who are part of the founding family of both companies, according to people familiar with the matter.

And of course there's the previous scandal involving Ranbaxy, which Malvinder Singh was part of. Check out this lengthy Fortune story, "Dirty Medicine."

http://fortune.com/2013/05/15/dirty-medicine/

In January 2006, Malvinder Singh, the founder’s grandson, succeeded Brian Tempest as Ranbaxy’s managing director and CEO. At 33, with an MBA from Duke University, Singh was brash and competitive. The Indian business press dubbed him the Pharaoh of Pharma, and hailed him as an “out-of-the-box decision-maker.”

Others viewed Singh as petulant and immature. “I want profit!” he would yell in meetings, two former employees recall. Among the staff, he was known for being preoccupied with his ranking on the Forbes list of India’s 40 richest people. When he and his brother Shivinder fell from No. 9 in 2004 to No. 19 in 2005, despite $1.6 billion in assets, Singh seemed to blame the decline on a lack of employee loyalty, a former employee recalls.

His biggest problem was the FDA’s decision not to accept new applications from the Paonta Sahib plant. Ranbaxy desperately needed a green light there. So in November 2006, Singh led a delegation to FDA headquarters to try to reverse the decision.

[Jesse]

" those who make claims of truth"

I didn't make a truth claim, Spencer. I stated what I believe to be the most likely explanation as to why these men are being investigated by the government. You, Brian and myself all have the same evidence. Brian and I agree with the government that there is a possibility of fraud. Obviously we're not saying we know. It's just an occam's razor thing basically.

Why is it hard for you to accept that I believe that these guys who are under investigation for serious fraud might have actually committed fraud with the help and/or knowledge of their family members who were involved in the business with them?

You're the only one who completely dismisses the available evidence and thinks that these billionaire businessmen are too holy to fail.

As to your comment that "having wealth, growing wealth is not itself proof of greed" all I can say is that the RS books don't really support that point of view for their Gurus who are expected to be content with what they have and 100% devoted to their inherited sangat.

Sorry, buddy. It's just not satvik to ignore your chelas while you spend hundreds of hours in meetings after you've made enough money to retire for 20 lifetimes.

[Dungeness]

By telling people on repeat that "we don't have rituals, but all satsangs around the world must b
e at 9AM, you need to sit in the same spot every time you meditate, and 10,000 other things DO YO
U EVEN READ THE BOOKS DUNGENESS?

Dear Jesse,

Books? That's not found in any book that I know of. Perhaps in
newsletters. However, those are organizational guidelines, not
absolutist religious imperatives. Forget any zealotry you imagine.

Here you go. One long quote telling people to give up familial tradition and begin funding some p
unjabi dude who calls himself God- https://www.rssb.org/publications.php

Huh? That's a top level link to various RSSB media. Cite the
"long quote". Which "tradition"..."Punjabi"?. By the way, what
do you mean by "funding some Punjabi dude"? Surely, you don't
refer to RSSB media which I understand is sold at cost.

"We are a cult." Charan Singh

I've researched several books and found no such quote from
Charan Singh. Can you provide a citation? Is this anecdotal?
What was the context?

Cults rule by fear, they dogmatize, and they enforce outward
rigidity in thought and action. RSSB does none of these and
promotes an experiential path only. Cults are antithetical
to everything RSSB stands for. Ishwar Puri recently detailed
how RSSB differs from cults. And I can produce citations if
you're really interested.

Weaponized opinions against a MASTER? I wanna see this dudes
credentials. Give me proof of the mastership.

That you'll never find unless you go within. This is an
experential path as I mentioned. Not one for uninformed
debates or academic speculation.

As far as attacking the teachings, I've yet to figure out what RSSB™ teachings even are. They hav
e no proprietary methods as far as I've seen. Just standard yogic mantra stuff with ear thumbs, w
hich may or may not be original.

It's more involved than "a mantra and ear thumbs". You
might try one of the basic books. Borrow one for free.
If it smacks of a cult or its methods are a turn-off,
try another mystic path or one that promotes mindfullness.
Be assured though RSSB is no cult in spite of what the
disaffected say. I can only mention "Great Master" who
said words to the effect:

"This is what has worked for me. I hope it'll work for you.
If it doesn't, try another discipline and if it's superior,
please come back and tell me. I'll follow it too."

Refreshingly un-cultish, eh?

[Jesse]

"I can only mention "Great Master" who
said words to the effect:...."

You're COMPLETELY misinterpreting that line from Sawan Singh. He wasn't telling people to try another path lol.
He was saying "I've reached a higher heaven than all other religions. If you find something higher bring me there (but you can't, cause I'm the best.)"

[One Initiated]

Jesse,

"He wasn't telling people to try another path lol."
Because people's mind was not as corrupt.

By questioning and insulting Master Gurinder Singh Ji,
you are also insulting The Great Master - in case if it matters if you respect(ed) HIM.

The dirty circle you are trapped in currently,
whatever current Master will say, you will insult HIM on that,
because that has become your tendency.
You've spent countless precious breaths on insulting HIM
and you've mastered that art now.
Had you spent those in meditation and listening to Sound,
you would have been a different person altogether.

You, and the likes, neither have ability nor capacity,
to understand where these funds are going to be used.

Should you ever be able to perceive it,
you will want to cry till your last breath.

I hope you'll get to know who actually the govt. is.

Try to be kind - not to anyone but to yourself
and avoid insulting the Param Sant Satgurus.

[Jesse]

Bantering with these RS culters makes me sad for my former self because I remember the days when I made the same bad arguments and excuses for what and who I believed in.

RS books constantly belittle other religions as being incomplete, lost, or having leaders who "only made it to trikuti or some other pathetic lowly heaven" or some sh*t. It's the most juvenile competition of all time, this comparing brahman to brahma to par brahm crap.

It could only be cool if they started naming their books stuff like "Buddha was a gay loser: How we pass his lame ass wannabe heaven and its flute sounds on day one. It's Veena and lights all the way up BICHIZ!!"

Not only did I make a bunch of bad arguments, but I became arrogant and thought I was special, as did all the satsangis I have ever met because we were told, and believed, that we'd found THE way and were thus heading to Sach Khand where we'd pass Jesus on our way up above him(Read Path of the masters, Dungeness)

Religious people like to do that overtly arrogant thing where they tell you how humble they are, but satsangis take it to another level of conspicuousness.

Anyway, I'm so humble and just a slave of the master. Nothing I do is my own will, since as you can see if you give me adequate attention, I'm extremely humble and full of the kind of humility that one only gets by finding the one true faith that so happens to be deeper, more powerful, and truer than all other faiths of the lost souls who will be born as dogs as I ascend to the HIGHEST heaven.

Humbly singing out with superhuman humility,
Jesse

[Jesse]

One initiated into a popular cult of Punjab India,

Sawan Singh, who likely had no knowledge on the topics he spoke on, insulted Jesus and said he was just a low level yogi. Do you think he'll burn in hell for that or nah?

Serious question.

Jesse

[Jesse]

I'll just keep rambling I guess since this One Initiated dude's comment annoyed me so badly.

One thing cultists seem to do is fixate on and adopt the language of their own lineages literature. You see people here saying "ummmm, param sant sat guru much???" as if that title itself holds any meaning outside of the cult.

Talk to Self Realization Fellowship followers and you'll notice them saying "the eternal babaji" in reference to some sasquatch looking figure who a random guy poorly drew a picture of in the early 20th century. It's weird. I once overheard a catlady in a new age shop talking about Baba ji and I asked "which one?" Her reply was "There is only one. And he's immortal." Ok lady.

Hare Krishnas constantly talk about "opulences" and "BONA FIDE spiritual masters" among other things. If you ever meet Jehovas Witnesses you'll almost immediately hear them refer to people as "ones" as in "there are ones who don't believe that param sant sat guru babaji contains all opulences and is the bona fide and eternal himalayan master."

[Jesse]

I'll just keep rambling I guess since this One Initiated dude's comment annoyed me so badly.

One thing cultists seem to do is fixate on and adopt the language of their own lineages literature. You see people here saying "ummmm, param sant sat guru much???" as if that title itself holds any meaning outside of the cult.

Talk to Self Realization Fellowship followers and you'll notice them saying "the eternal babaji" in reference to some sasquatch looking figure who a random guy poorly drew a picture of in the early 20th century. It's weird. I once overheard a catlady in a new age shop talking about Baba ji and I asked "which one?" Her reply was "There is only one. And he's immortal." Ok lady.

Hare Krishnas constantly talk about "opulences" and "BONA FIDE spiritual masters" among other things. If you ever meet Jehovas Witnesses you'll almost immediately hear them refer to people as "ones" as in "there are ones who don't believe that param sant sat guru babaji contains all opulences and is the bona fide and eternal himalayan master."

(sorry if this comment posts twice. was getting slowness and glitchiness so i reposted.)

[One Initiated]

Jesse,

Not HE, but you, should you continue doing what you are.
Exception is if in the last breath you realise your mistake,
and bow to HIS feet.

A University Dean, telling a difference
between a lecturer and a professor is not an insult.
A preschooler telling that Dean doesn't know preschool is.

[Jesse]

"A University Dean, telling a difference
between a lecturer and a professor is not an insult.
A preschooler telling that Dean doesn't know preschool is."

Later RS books contradicted Sawan's stance. (Ouch)

Seems the Dean and the rest of the staff have bumbled their way into academia and have been spiking their coffee with LSD.

Nobody knows what's going on. Students are dropping out.

[One Initiated]

What you are calling contradictions
are actually adjustments to save the headache from debates.

Great Master used to tell openly about the deities,
and now the books doesn't include that as well,

However, those who are in the grip of their minds,
can not understand the purpose.

Students who are engaged in prostitution,
when fails badly, turns the guns on the Masters.
drops out and insults the school and the Masters.

Students can drop out, HE will not.

[Jesse]

"What you are calling contradictions
are actually adjustments to save the headache from debates."

Nah. Not adjustments. They're outright contradictions. Someone can't adjust the statement that something is God, not God, maybe God, God again, and not God anymore.

Read that old talk between Charan and the Catholic scholars. It's pretty obvious that the RS Gurus are hardly informed let alone educated about even the basics of the religions they give talks about. It's why they hire everyone around them to do research and write books while they themselves shop for expensive watches and attend business meetings for profit.

What kind of wrist watches does God like best, One Initiated?

[Dungeness]

You're COMPLETELY misinterpreting that line from Sawan Singh. He wasn't telling people to try another path lol.
He was saying "I've reached a higher heaven than all other religions. If you find something higher bring me there (but you can't, cause I'm the best.)"

Fair enough. We both have opinions. However Ishwar Puri who
recounts these remarks of Great Master then went to investigate
several other paths over a period of years. So this hardly the
behavior of a cult.

[Notmeer]

This may apply here:

THE DISAPPOINTING BUDDHA

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&cd=1&ved=2ahUKEwj05rKvipncAhWEhFQKHd0JACwQFjAAegQIBhAB&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.integralworld.net%2Flane131.html&usg=AOvVaw3wYD1RzRw3u07D-mFzsk8n

[One Initiated]

One which stops the time shall they stop!

[777]

For All Guru-dom
this applies or it does not

Isn't that simple ?

youtube

"Everywhere I go, . . . I see Your Face"

and

"Amazing Grace"

Simpler cannot be

777

-present abundance of TXT is above my pay-grade and my karma grade

[PJ]

We're all probably familiar with the truisms Charan Singh started many of his -- very enjoyable -- talks with. In particular this:
"Saints may come at any time, in any country etc."
So why is there never any question, or anticipation, of the successor coming from say... Mexico, or Denmark, or Zambia? Why is it always not just the same place in the same country, but the same family?
Huge red flag imo

[Dungeness]

So why is there never any question, or anticipation, of the successor coming from say... Mexico, or Denmark, or Zambia? Why is it always not just the same place in the same country, but the same family?

Not necessarily from the same family at all. An overwhelmingly
large majority of followers do live in India so it's always likely the
selection will be local. However, there could be qualified
successors in any country. Not all would be able to emigrate
to India or have the requisite language skills to serve the large
Hindi/Punjabi plurality. The odds of it happening are long.

It's been predicted that the RSSB center will shift to the U.S.
within a few generations though. So the focus is on location of
followers and serving them. The selection of a successor will
always be merit based.

[Brian Hines]

Dungeness, the question of whether RSSB gurus truly are God in Human Form obviously should be answered with an almost-certain "No," but for the sake of argument let's assume the RSSB dogma.

So out of all the people in the world who might be god-realized in the Sant Mat sense of the term, we're supposed to believe that Gurinder Singh's nephew, a billionaire enmeshed in some sleazy business scandals, is the most qualified person on Planet Earth to succeed the current RSSB guru if he either steps down to enjoy his own grandiose wealth in worldly privacy, or upon Gurinder Singh's death?

Meaning, it just so happens that out of seven billion or so humans, a relative close to Gurinder Singh is the most guru'y of them all? And taking a broader perspective, that of the five RSSB gurus so far, three have been related, and this makes sense spiritually-speaking? (Sawan Singh, Charan Singh, Gurinder Singh) If Shivinder Singh were to succeed Gurinder Singh, that would make four out of six gurus who were related.

[Jen]

Notmeer posted a link above (12 July 2018) to THE DISAPPOINTING BUDDHA by David Lane and Andrea Diem-Lane.

Like Jim, I wonder about David's motive in visiting the Dera recently, was he just checking out the illusionary disappointing guru? lol

I agree with this excerpt from David's essay:

"We live in a world of our own delusions, even as we attempt to escape them by creating even more fantastic ones in the process."
..........
I think it takes courage to face our unknowingness.

[Jesse]

"The selection of a successor will
always be merit based."

Of course, nobody knows anything about any of these Gurus other than the fact that they are constantly accused of illegal land grabbing around northern India and are being investigated for fraud, so we'll just have to take your word for it since you know them so well to assess their merit.

I definitely trust people who print books in which they refer to themselves as God. It's a really humble thing and definitive proof that they're spiritually qualified to ..... wait... what do they do other than give talks to massive crowds of people they don't know or recognize?

This whole thing is an amazing scam. Get out while you can.

At least in traditional religions you have people you can go to. Pundits, priests, or whoever. This billion-disciple stuff makes no practical sense. Gurinder might have 10 girlfriends and a heroin addiction but you have no way of knowing. The guy is a famous rock star who couldn't possibly know the millions of dupes who pay him. He performs the same "do your bhajan" bit over and over and you all stare at him because "self published book said Godman."

[Jesse]

Is there a way to filter out certain commenters?

A certain person (allegedly. i think it's a schizo bot) writes repetitive and inane trash that is the textual equivalent to a picture of a hairy butt covered in glitter with an OM symbol superimposed over it.

Totally ruins the flow of everything.

[Brian Hines]

Jesse, good point. I assume you're referring to "777." I delete his more inane comments, but none of them really make sense, as you pointed out. I'm going to be more diligent about deleting the "777" comments that don't relate to the subject of a post, or at least make sense to a normal human being. Typepad does have a way of blocking someone, but I prefer not to do that unless absolutely necessary.

[Jen]

Brian I used to think you were an openminded un-judgmental type of person who allowed people's differing opinions on this blog. Jesse seems to have taken over now and anyone who disagrees with you or Jesse has their comments deleted. I hope that everyone who does disagree with this Jesse character does not comment anymore. Its not worth it. Too much hate. Haters gotta hate.

[Jesse]

Brian,
I was just joking, since it's your blog and I'm not gonna ask you to get into censorship unless it's already something you'd have deleted. Not all of my comments go through, and I don't really know or care why. Your place, your rules and preferences.

But there is something kind of odd about the prosaic stream of consciousness responses to literally everything. I don't know if I'm being trolled, talking to someone who legitimately needs mental health assistance, or if I'm talking to Hafiz reincarnated with a significant reduction of intellectual acumen.

All this made me think of one of the only good satsangs I remember in which the speaker said "maybe this is all BS, but so what? Meditation doesn't hurt anyone." Very heretical, but at least respectable in my opinion, which is more than I can say for many of the defenses I see here.

Jesse

[One Initiated]

Brian,

How were the comments off topic I couldn't get that.
That is truly very unfair to delete the comments of a commenter,
upon requesting from another one.

Jesse, you've played cheap by taking Brian
in your confidence.
That's not the way to do the debates.
That's a clear cut partiality from the Judges.
I could never imagine Brian would agree to your oddity.

You could better chicken out from here and post elsewhere,
if you can not withstand the debate.

Eventually that hatred in your heart will start to show the repercussions,
And the longer you will you keep your heart filled with hatred,
the more intense it's going to be.

It terribly pains when the bulldozer starts,
you appears but shouldn't be desperate for that.

[Jesse]

Jen,

I binge comment here for a few days once every 2 years or so. It can hardly be considered taking over anything.

And I've had comments deleted, too. Assumedly for being off topic, weird or for being unnecessarily insulting toward other commenters. It's no biggie. My internet comment activity is admittedly contentious and irritating to a lot of people. I take pride in it, and expect ban hammers to rain down on my head every time I open my laptop.

I'll be gone soon and you can read all the attempts at spiritual poetry that have nothing to do with corruption in RSSB, why RSSB members refuse to admit even the possibility of corruption, or anything else in the sphere of relevancy concerning the post we're all commenting on.

It'll all be ok.

Jesse

[Jesse]

One Initiated,

Thank you for your expert psychoanalysis.

To be honest, I didn't even know I was having a debate with 777 since most of his comments were less than 10 words and contained no grammar. Only you were able to unravel the mystery of my subconscious mind and my irrational hatred for god men and their impending fraud charges.

It all makes sense now.

Bhajan Hard, then Bhajan Harder until you reach the pinnacle.

I'll see you there,

Jesse

[Dungeness]

Meaning, it just so happens that out of seven billion or so humans, a relative close to Gurinder Singh is the most guru'y of them all? And taking a broader perspective, that of the five RSSB gurus so far, three have been related, and this makes sense spiritually-speaking? (Sawan Singh, Charan Singh, Gurinder Singh) If Shivinder Singh were to succeed Gurinder Singh, that would make four out of six gurus who were related.

Brian,

All I know is what I've read in the RSSB books. I certainly think
the rumor of Gurinder's successor is premature. Who is its source,
what is the strength of the evidence, any corroboraters? The same
litmus test applies to Shivinder. Bad optics, accusations, even
investigations don't equate to indictments. Spence's counterpoint
about those charges seems entirely credible to me.

I don't think it's necessarily untoward that gurus of the RSSB
lineage are related. It's not unheard of in other lineages I
recall. But, at this point, I'm hardly in a position to comment.

Nor am I able to personally assess the "merit" of any potential
successor as Jesse seems to allege in a follow-up. But, those
who appear ready to convict without evidence, to leap head
first into the fray on the basis of innuedo, to elevate their
opinion to fact, to trumpet another's guilt in a sophomoric,
shrill manner without a shred of doubt about its truth strike
me as unconscionable.

[Brian Hines]

Jen, don't be ridiculous. I rarely delete a comment. Whey they aren't published, it is because Typepad put it in the junk comments section. I check for wrongly categorized junk comments regularly, usually once a day. I delete some of the "777" comments when they are meaningless. I've been doing this for quite a while.

Comments are supposed to relate to the blog post. I'm very generous about this, because I realize that some people are using my blog as a sort of message board. That's fine. I just expect that a comment have some meaning to it, and isn't just gibberish. "777" is notorious for those sorts of comments, and they are indeed a distraction to serious commenters, and visitors to my blog who correctly expect that the comments are about a blog post, not about something completely different.

Few blogs or web sites would be as accommodating as I am about off-topic comments. Believe me, I visit numerous newspaper web sites each day, and the comments there almost always pertain to the subject matter of a story.

[G.S]

It hurts to see what Radha Soami has become, it's probably easier for people like Brian and others who don't have RS families to move on and not feel affected. But this is the path i grew up following, what hurts the most is how the mass followers are being duped.
They spend their entire lifetime doing seva and meditation, but they're not getting anything out of it, they think it pleases the Guru who's too busy in his own business affairs.

Unfortunately it looks very likely that Shivinder will take over as he fits the criteria of being a Guru (family related, Sikh.turban etc).

[PJ]

>>G.S.
>it's probably easier for people like Brian and others who don't have RS families to move on and not feel affected
Maybe... unless they turned away from those families to follow this. I did that with friends from school, who would have been lifelong friends otherwise. I'm sure others have lost marriages over this.
>this is the path i grew up following
I understand, both situations are bad.

[Appreciative Reader]

How does succession work, exactly, at RSSB?

Is it that the existing Master, within his lifetime, anoints his successor? Or what?

I remember Mike Williams talking of Wills in connection with past successions within RSSB. So I suppose that's one way of going about it. (Although I doubt such provisions within a Will can be legally binding ; but of course, what is at question here is not legality per se as a conveying of the Master's wishes.)

This rumor about the nephew succeeding GSD : is there anyone here with intimate knowledge of RSSB affairs, who may be able to comment on how true this might be? Has GSD spoken or written about this himself? If he has, then that's that, I suppose. And if he hasn't, then surely such rumor is unfounded?

[tucson]

All of this business controversy swirling around the big shots in the religio/cult known as Sant Mat or Radha Soami is indicative of ordinary individuals immersed in the futile flailings of physical existence and mundane affairs. Those who see this situation otherwise are wearing blinders of denial. Sorry, your leaders are fake. They are not saints. Why do they bother with this crap if they can soar to the radiant heavens at will in meditation and swoon in ecstacy in the lap of God? Just walk away and meditate, family Singh!! Who cares about Religare and Fortis And Ranbaxy. They're just passing phantoms in Maya. Give them up. Walk away. They're supposed to know that. Apparently not.

A far cry from the stories of Soami Ji, an early founder of the Beas cult, who meditated for 15 years in a back room with his hair tied to an overhead rod so that he wouldn't fall asleep and who lived on a few stale chipatis dipped in water to make them palatable.

[Joe]

Jim,

Mr. Lane has spoken fondly of Gurinder's more "modern" satsangs - emphasizing Chandian or Advaita like principles. I guess what Lane and others don't recognize is that that is typical of religious cults and con men - appealing to those with money and influence by giving them what they want.

[bodhitreeenlightenment]

This is a copy of what Lane has written recently and apparently summarizes his Chandian viewpoint:

THE DISAPPOINTING BUDDHA
Understanding the Vicarious Nature of Spiritual Hero Worship
Learning the Deeper Lesson from Ken Wilber's The Atman Project

DAVID LANE AND ANDREA DIEM-LANE

We live in a world of our own delusions, even as we attempt to escape them by creating even more fantastic ones in the process.

When I first read Ken Wilber's The Atman Project back in 1980, I was deeply impressed with his thesis that we are “attempting to find Spirit in ways that prevent it and force substitute gratifications.” Of course, one could replace “Spirit” with any higher ideal that requires discipline or sacrifice, since the modus operandi is the same: instead of doing the hard work ourselves, we look for exterior symbols that can do the heavy lifting. Simply put, we are lazy and we would rather project our desire on to some person or object and let them do the necessary requirements than actually do the deep reflection within our own beings. The glitch in this process, however, is that it ultimately doesn't work. The idealized Icon, when closely analyzed, fails to live up to our heightened expectations. Our chosen Buddhas, Christs, Babas, Gurus, end up forever disappointing us, since like the statues we have made of them in the past, they invariably have feet of clay.

The largest religion in the world, Christianity, exemplifies Wilber's premise perfectly with its dogma of Vicarious Atonement, clearly defined by Christian Apologetics & Research Ministry as: “The teaching that the atonement which states that Christ's death was 'legal.' It satisfied the legal justice of God. Jesus bore the penalty of sin when He died on the cross. His death was a substitution for the believers. In other words, He substituted Himself for them upon the cross. Jesus hanged in our place as He bore our sin in His body on the cross.” This doctrine has its historical legacy in 1 Peter, 24, wherein it is claimed “He Himself bore our sins in His body on the cross, so that we might die to sin and live to righteousness; for by His wounds you were healed.”

This is a compelling promise since it is not up to us “by works” to mitigate our sinful nature but up to the Son of God who has all the responsibility for our salvation. All we have to do is accept such a divine bounty and let the healing process begin. The caveat, though, is that one actually has to have faith that such a promise is real. Those of a skeptical bent tend to scoff at such theological claims, particularly if they are well versed in how many other religions offer heavenly rewards for holding the right set of beliefs.

This remind one anew of the old television game show, “Let's Make a Deal”. Monty Hall, the original host, would tell a participant that there is a wonderful prize behind one of three doors. The problem is that two of the doors may have nothing of value. Which one do you pick? Religions are in some ways similar, except that there are thousands of more options: Is the liberation of your soul behind door number 1: Krishna? Or, door number 2: Buddha? Or door number 3: Jesus Christ? Or, in a surprise addition, door number 4: L. Ron Hubbard and Scientology? And the list goes on.

On the surface, it is a silly religious game we play since nobody knows if there really is a thing as “soul liberation”, much less a rightful choice that insures such. But as naïve human beings we play it seriously all the same. We are like our misguided statistician friend, Blaise Pascal, (1623-1662) who argues that we make a gambler's choice. It is now commonly known as Pascal's Wager which “offers a pragmatic reason for believing in God: even under the assumption that God's existence is unlikely, the potential benefits of believing are so vast as to make betting on theism rational.”

But here Pascal not only begs the real question lurking behind that Monty Hall like curtain (why if there is a God or a Truth do we have to choose in the first place?), but displays how biased he is in favoring only one of the options as being viable, dismissing in the process the millions of gods in Hinduism, the various paths of Buddhism, the multiple schools of Paganism, and all of the newer religions which he seemed unfamiliar with at the time (Sikhism?).

We simply don't like uncertainty and not knowing, so instead in our existential moments of dread, like our depressed friend Søren Kierkegaard, we take “leaps of faith” to somehow get us over the abyss we confront in our lives.

This is where I think Wilber's Atman Project is instructive since instead of confronting (metaphor alert) the Sisyphusian task of rolling up the heavy stone up the hill ourselves, we imagine that someone or something has can do it for us.

A Jesus, a Buddha, a Guru, a Book, a Revelation . . . all become magical talismans for achieving what we are not. I may be a sinner, but Jesus is sinless. I may dull and petty, but my Buddha is enlightened. I may have made no inner progress, but surely my chosen Guru has achieved the very highest. I may be a prostitute but Mary is a Virgin. And the projective list goes on and on.

Religion is fueled by our self-perceived lack. And, thus the Wilberian Atman Project is our own way to achieve what we desire by elevating our Istha Devas and defending their relative statuses by our own imaginings

We live in a world of our own delusions, even as we attempt to escape them by creating even more fantastic ones in the process.

This becomes painfully obvious when we see just how truly fragile our belief systems really are.

As Father Costello, a Dominican priest at my old alma mater, Notre Dame High School, unequivally exclaimed to us in his Freshman religion class, “If Jesus Christ didn't bodily resurrect, I would rip off my holy garments and party like a hedonist.”

Or, as the fundamentalist Protestant wails, “If somewhere in the Bible it says 2 + 2 equals 5, I would not doubt it.” Why? Because the Holy Book is errant and thus cannot be wrong, even when it is.

On the other side of the globe, the logic is the same even if the content and the geographical context are different. “My Baba has entered into the highest region of spiritual attainment. He is the greatest of all living gurus.” When asked how he knows this, the devotee confesses that it is manifest in Baba's eyes.

Religious Icon projection is Freudian transference on meth and because we favor our substitutions for the real thing, we fight tooth and nail to defend our fantastic phantasms, lest they evaporate away like the Wicked Witch of East in the Wizard of Oz who melts whenever plain water is thrown on her.

Or, to invoke a 1960s song, Puff the Magic Dragon, whose lyrics though invoking images from the beautiful island of Kauai, explains poetically the childish nature of our believed in Deities:

Puff, the magic dragon lived by the sea
And frolicked in the autumn mist
in a land called Honnah Lee
Little Jackie Paper loved that rascal Puff
And brought him strings and sealing wax and other fancy stuff, oh!

Puff, the magic dragon lived by the sea
And frolicked in the autumn mist
in a land called Honnah Lee
Puff, the magic dragon lived by the sea
And frolicked in the autumn mist
in a land called Honnah Lee

Together they would travel on a boat with billowed sail
Jackie kept a lookout perched on Puff's gigantic tail
Noble kings and princes would bow whene'er they came
Pirate ships would lower their flags when Puff roared out his name, oh!

Puff, the magic dragon lived by the sea
And frolicked in the autumn mist
in a land called Honnah Lee
Puff, the magic dragon lived by the sea
And frolicked in the autumn mist
in a land called Honnah Lee

A dragon lives forever but not so little boys
Painted wings and giant rings make way for other toys
One grey night it happened, Jackie Paper came no more
And Puff that mighty dragon, he ceased his fearless roar

His head was bent in sorrow, green scales fell like rain
Puff no longer went to play along the cherry lane
Without his life-long friend, Puff could not be brave
So Puff that mighty dragon sadly slipped into his cave, oh!

Puff, the magic dragon lived by the sea
And frolicked in the autumn mist
in a land called Honnah Lee
Puff, the magic dragon lived by the sea
And frolicked in the autumn mist
in a land called Honnah Lee
When we realize our Atman Projects, our own dragons of spirit descend into the very abyss that we ourselves so assiduously attempted to avoid.

As the song lyric so paintively concludes, “A dragon lives forever but not so little boys.”

When it comes to religion, do we ever really grow up? Or do we, as Wilber and others have suggested, continually manufacture surrogates so we can persist in our magical wish fulfillment?

It is here that I find Nietzsche instructive, not only because he spoke about the death of god, our idealized projection, but more importantly about what we would do with our lives once we realized that our prior beliefs were unsustainable.

Nietzsche's Myth of Eternal Recurrence is a thought experiment worth considering over and over again (of course, the pun is intended), since it forces us to confront how we would act if everything we did had to be repeated for eternity without being able to change a single gesture.

If we knew we lived in such universe and were given this gem of knowledge, how would we respond for the next twenty, forty, or sixty years? Change everything knowing full well that it will be recycled for infinity? Or, change nothing at all, realizing that acceptance of the high, low, and in-between is the only key to contenment?

Nietzsche's myth is a clarion call to resist the Sirens of Sirenum scopuli who with their enchanting songs only leave us voyagers shipwrecked and waylaid from our true destination. Wilber's Atman Project is a process of delay, a postponement of confronting the reality of our situation. As the wise sage from Hoshiarpur smartly opined, "O, man your real helper is your own Self and your own Faith, but you are badly mistaken and believe that somebody from without comes to help you. No Hazrat Mohammad, No Lord Rama, Lord Krishna or any God or goddess or Guru comes from without. This entire game is that of your impressions and suggestions which are ingrained upon your mind, through your eyes and ears and of your Faith and Belief.”

But are we ready to transcend our projective arcs and proceed unencumbered and unknowing into the source from which our very consciousness arises? Or, are we more predisposed to rely on proxy representatives to do our bidding? If we succumb to the latter option, we are left to be spectators to our own journey. Yes, it will be safer, less demanding, and temporarily satisfying, but in the end it will leave us empty and spiritually vacuous.

[Joe]

Looking for God in all the wrong places and all the wrong faces is definitely a thing. I often wonder if the Christian concept of being saved is sort of at the root of this, or maybe it is just laziness and irresponsibility and immaturity generally. Or infantile transference - looking for Mom or Dad to do for us what we are legitimately unable. Probably a combination of all those things. But simply marching by someones drumbeat and not actually engaging consciousness and making effort to untie what binds it seems just dumb. If you work at anything in small incremental steps there is always a result, just not necessarily the result you expected.

[manjit]

G.S. wrote: "It hurts to see what Radha Soami has become, it's probably easier for people like Brian and others who don't have RS families to move on and not feel affected. But this is the path i grew up following, what hurts the most is how the mass followers are being duped. "

Hello again!

Actually, I completely agree with this sentiment (except the "duped" part, I think that is an over-simplification, actually....I tend to give RSSB and Gurinder more credit than that? I don't know though!). I was going to write about this the other day...

.....a lot of my recent comments and criticisms of RSSB & Gurinder have stemmed from a feeling of disappointment with Gurinder & RSSB, not anger, bitterness or anything like that, but disappointment in the sense you share.....the feeling they're letting down his followers, and people I also still consider "family", by being, errrrm, how else to say it but a BAD example of "deeply spiritual people". It is the same feeling of "disappointment" you can have with a parent or child....you still love them, you point out why the behaviour is not appropriate....but you are NOT judging or condemning them, the criticism is fuelled by a deep empathy.

Okay, that sounded like rambling to me so Sat Purush only knows how it reads to someone else! :)

I have to just add, though, this feeling of empathy and hope RSSB followers are not being "duped" is easily....and SHOULD BE....extended to ALL others of ALL faiths, beliefs and disbelief......they are all someone's family!

[G.S.]

Hello Manjit,

Yes I have the same exact feeling toward RS and Gurinder, i know it's easy to be angry and bitter, but i'm not, perhaps i haven't meditated for 30 years and realised what the path is really about.
But I still want the best for RS, I still have that attachment to it because my family are initiated, and the sevadors at my centre were like family. This Shivinder guy isn't the best choice given his background, it would be a little difficult seeing this guy worshipped by your family, at least with the other Guru's they had morals.

[manjit]

Hey G.S.,

The quote from one of Brian's links, where he apparently demanded more money during a boardroom meeting whilst banging his fists down or some such....oh boy .

Heartbreaking, really.

It reminds of when I was a follower of RSSB, I heard about the "mystical path" of Nizari Ismailism, a path very similar to RS and shabd yoga, in several ways.....but then finding out about their "Satguru", the Aga Khan.....in more moderns times, their guru had "descended" (in my opinion at the time) into the trappings of wealth, celebrity, sexuality etc.

The same feeling I had then....but in smug judgement of the "other's" guru, I have now towards RSSB....but as mentioned before, not as "other", but as what was at least once, if not still, "family"....

However, as I've stated my belief & hope before, I think the "spiritual path" is a profoundly private thing where "success" is based purely on one's own sincerity, honesty, urgency, love, compassion etc, NOT which "Godman" you have handed over all responsibility too....and in that sense, there are NO "false" gurus or paths!

Imo, anyway.

Cheers,

Manjit

[G.S.]

I think the "spiritual path" is a profoundly private thing where "success" is based purely on one's own sincerity, honesty, urgency, love, compassion etc, NOT which "Godman" you have handed over all responsibility too....and in that sense, there are NO "false" gurus or paths!

Yes, you're thinking along the lines of Faqir Chand, you have a point, the Guru is still important and he must go beyond the basic teachings like Faqir in order for us to nurture those qualities you mentioned and make progress.
RSSB doesn't cover any of this, and from what I've read about Faqir, a lot of his disciples made progress faster with him than when they were with RSSB and other branches.

[Spencer Tepper]

Hi Jesse
You asked "Why is it hard for you to accept that I believe that these guys who are under investigation for serious fraud might have actually committed fraud with the help and/or knowledge of their family members who were involved in the business with them?"

No Jesse, I don't think you understand.
The courts are doing their job. But that is not for you or I to conclude innocent or guilty.

You and Brian did indeed make accusations of guilt.

A close inspection of the inter company loans reveals they were to organizations without collateral, as I've discussed above.

At the least that isn't legal nor good management.

Nor is rubber stamping acne medicine inspections.

But something else was going on here that you both seem unable to see for yourselves.

In the case of Ranbaxy the company was stretched to handle the explosion in medication production for Africa at or below cost.

Then loans were rotated to help cover the enormous fine from the FDA, the largest in history.

In the case of Fortis, loans were shuffled to cover small hospitals and vendors with no collateral.

Yes, in the midst of human failings, an effort to stretch for patients and aids patients.

[Spencer Tepper]

More about the Fortis intercompany loans

https://m.economictimes.com/industry/healthcare/biotech/healthcare/fortis-malvinder-singh-authorised-funds-diversion-into-related-entities/articleshow/64773769.cms

[Jesse]

"We're in no position to decide who is guilty or innocent. Let me explain why these guys are innocent and how moral they are. "

Super honest guy you are, Spence Defense.

[Spencer Tepper]

Hi Jesse

You falsely quoted
""We're in no position to decide who is guilty or innocent. Let me explain why these guys are innocent and how moral they are. "

Super honest guy you are, Spence Defense"

What I actually wrote was

"No Jesse, I don't think you understand.
The courts are doing their job. But that is not for you or I to conclude innocent or guilty."

Jesse, there's this little thing that's gained in popularity among all the brightest commentators on the internet called 'reading'. Google it. Might help you.

[Spencer Tepper]

Here is more detail on the loans to o
Healthcare facilities, including emergency services, that had little collateral.

https://m.economictimes.com/industry/healthcare/biotech/healthcare/singh-brothers-may-have-taken-fresh-loans-from-fortis-to-repay-funds-diverted-from-hospital-chain-company-says/articleshow/64898856.cms

[Jesse]

Obviously if I wanted to cut and paste your blathering dishonesty I would have. But I made my point with a more humorous paraphrase of it.

You want to me not judge, even as you judge. But your only reason for not wanting others to judge negatively is that contrary to your belief, RSSB cuzzie probably doesn't just want to save all the African babies. There is zero evidence of this. Your theory is absolutely baseless and without evidence.

They're not being investigated for charity. They're being investigated for "serious fraud." There is a difference between charity and fraud.

Some business failing that happens to be going on simultaneous to African expansion doesn't mean that the African expansion was some deep heartfelt sense of moral obligation on the part of RS fambly man.

You only want that to be so because then it makes your cult look better. Period.

You're not being honest.

[Jesse]

"No Jesse, I don't think you understand.
The courts are doing their job. But that is not for you or I to conclude innocent or guilty."

"Yes, in the midst of human failings, an effort to stretch for patients and aids patients."

Compare and contrast the two conflicting sentiments of a cult defender.

[Spencer Tepper]

Jesse
When I write that we should not judge and to let the courts do that, I don't think that 's cult thinking.

And when I offer the articles for your own interpretation that isn't cult thinking.

But don't let facts stand in the way of hatred.

Just understand where your priorities are.

[Jesse]

"When I write that we should not judge and to let the courts do that, I don't think that 's cult thinking."

I guess you missed the most obvious point I made which is that you are judging as much as I. You haven't waited for the courts decision any longer than I have before you jumped in with your "RSSB and fam love African babies" bit.

Take your own advice maybe?

[Jesse]

This amazingly banal polemic being engaged in right now between Spence Defense and I is an almost picture perfect example of what led me out of religion.

Religion itself might not need to make people unaware of their glaringly obvious double standards and biases, but from what I can tell, it's more common amongst the religious.

Judging is bad. Let me share my judgement with you. I'm not judging, you are.

[Spencer Tepper]

No Jesse
I don't say they are innocent.
I provide only a possibility of lesser crimes.

If spirituality only opens our mind to acknowledging possibility and our own limitations is has succeeded.

Hatred, Jesse, should always be applied sparingly.

If at all.

[Dungeness]

I guess you missed the most obvious point I made which is that you are judging as much as I. You haven't waited for the courts decision any longer than I have before you jumped in with your "RSSB and fam love African babies" bit.

Jesse, you're shouting "hang 'em high" before they've even been
indicted. We're judgmental. Everyone has opinions about someone's guilt or innocence but due process is sacred.

P.S.
I was reminded how judgmental I was today in mid-fantasy - a scene that ended with Trump "doin' the perp walk".

[Jesse]

You're an absolute hypocrite, Spencer.

I said that I DON'T KNOW, not "These guys are 100% guilty."

Maybe the Money Clan is innocent and saving all the Africans, as India aka Habshi loverstan has a long history of doing. Maybe they're guilty of fraud, which is extremely rare in India, being that it's one of the least corrupt places on earth. (God please don't make me point out that this is sarcasm.)

You're offended that I've expressed my belief in the possibility of your God and his family being frauds. It's not about judgement. It's about judgement that isn't favorable to your religion's optics and your personal ego that likely has decades invested into it.

[Jesse]

"Jesse, you're shouting "hang 'em high" before they've even been
indicted. "

No, I'm saying "In my opinion they are more likely guilty than not."

Spencer is literally telling us that he knows it was a bad business decision because Indians just want to help the African babies. I have no inclination to reread all his gibberish, but I don't remember him ever prefacing any of his statements with "there's a chance" or "i think" etc. He just jumps right into "My God's nephew threw money in the garbage because he loves Africans."

Read the posts, Dungeness.

[Jesse]

Sant Jesse Declareth!

Thou Shalt Not Judgeth, Unlesseth Of Course Thy Judgement Be Makineth Thouest Guru Cult Looketh Favorable.

[Brian Hines]

Here's another business story about the misadventures of the Singh brothers, Malvinder and Shivinder. In addition to being embroiled in legal problems, they've lost their shares in Fortis. See:

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-07-13/fortis-picks-ihh-healthcare-over-tpg-bid-in-india-hospital-deal

Excerpts:
--------------------
A bidding war for cash-strapped Fortis kicked off earlier this year after its founders, brothers Malvinder and Shivinder Singh, lost their shareholding due to debt, and allegations that they had improperly taken funds from the company. A four-months-long takeover fight drew as many as five potential suitors from as far away as the U.S. and China, all keen to win a prime position in one of the world’s most under-served health-care markets.

...Not only must Fortis’s new owner turn around three straight quarters of losses, it must also deal with the fallout from the conclusions of investigations by government agencies. A report by an outside law firm commissioned by Fortis’s board found about 4.5 billion rupees were loaned amid “systemic lapses,” and were used by the borrowers to ultimately repay money owed to entities with ties to the Singh brothers. Fortis had to write off the amounts in the latest quarter even as it initiated legal action to recover the missing money.

[Jesse]

Brian,

That article is highly biased. Nowhere in it does it mention the undeniable fact that the only thing these billionaires in both money and spirit ever wanted to do was to save precious African souls from the plague of AIDS. And the only way they could save their beloved African babies was to not use a single paisa of their personal money, but use investor money instead.

Jesse

[Jesse]

Brian, I do have a serious question if you wish to speculate.

In the article it says

"The sales process, which often played out in the press with offers and counter bids disclosed publicly, had to be restarted several times amid questions about the board’s independence, which eventually saw all its directors replaced."

Now, if I recall, there were companies which all these RS Singhs were involved with that had their boards stacked with satsangis.

Might this be the issue being discussed here, or is Fortis not one one of the RS related companies?

[Dungeness]

"We are a cult." Charan Singh
Just quoting your Guru, Dungeness.
Posted by: Jesse | July 11, 2018 at 02:12 PM

Yet when asked, you could not cite any book, anecdote,
or anything that memorialized this quote. But RSSB is still
a "cult" in your kangaroo court.

"Jesse, you're shouting "hang 'em high" before they've even been
indicted. "

No, I'm saying "In my opinion they are more likely guilty than not.

That's the tamest rendition of your vitriol I've seen yet. You may
try to pretend you're not just arriving from kangaroo court but
your earlier remarks belie it. Wow, I can't think of a defense
attorney, who wouldn't want to voir dire you the hell off his
case. Any case.