"Enlightenment" is a meaningless concept

Over on this post of mine there's been a comment conversation about enlightenment. "JB" left this cogent comment, which I agree with.

Tim Rimmer said: "Wasn't that the nature of the Buddha’s realisation? - All is Dukkha, yet ‘one’ is able to remove/get past it?"

That one is able to remove/get past suffering is unadulterated mythology. The hero, the savior, the enlightened person- these are all variations on a theme. This is the mythical theme that has encapsulated humankind's greatest hope. It is a dead giveaway that the "enlightened masters" are all from the ancient past. Those that claim to be enlightened today are invariably discovered to have the same neuroses and foibles as the average person, sometimes far worse. Instead of realizing that enlightenment is the stuff of legend, we radically redefine enlightenment to accomodate them.

There are no enlightened beings and never were.

"Manjit" left a reply, which I found unconvincing.

Basically it was that because lots of people claim to have "enlightenment" experiences, that means there is such a thing as enlightenment. Well, lots of people claim to have been abducted by aliens, which doesn't mean this actually happens. 

Here's an excerpt from Manjit's comment.

So, are you here REALLY stating that YOU have never had any experiences of "enlightenment" or, say a "kundalini awakening" or "absorption in the sound-current" or inner "communion" with "love" or "light", or "astral projection" etc etc?

So again, Manjit is arguing that because people say there is such a thing as enlightenment, this means there is such a thing as enlightenment. Which, of course, is untrue, since people often say things that are false. (Just watch President Trump talk.)

Here's the comment I left on this subject.

The best argument against there being such a thing as "enlightenment" is that it is entirely possible and valid to have arguments about whether there's such a thing as enlightenment.

There aren't arguments about whether there are rich people, artistic people, musical people, mathematically-gifted people, lazy people, productive people, or a myriad of other kinds of people.

But there are indeed arguments about whether there are enlightened people. Why?

Because there is no way to tell whether someone is enlightened. This is an intellectual concept made up by certain religions and spiritual paths to justify their specialness. They've made up a word, "enlightenment," then claimed that if devotees do such and such, they can become enlightened.

Whatever that is.

Here's a challenge to anyone who believes that enlightenment is real. Describe how it is possible to distinguish an enlightened person from an unenlightened person.

Imagine the spiritual equivalent of a police lineup. You're presented with a dozen, or a hundred, or a thousand, or seven billion, people. Your job is to point out the "enlightened" people.

How would you do this? What questions would you ask them? What answers would you find persuasive, and why? What behaviors or actions they perform would you want to observe? Which of these behaviors or actions would show they're enlightened, and why?

My strong suspicion is that believers in the reality of enlightenment would say that this is an ineffable personal experience, or state of being, that can't be described or observed.

OK. Fair enough.

This sounds like the dreams that I have every night. Or the feelings I have throughout the day. This would make "enlightenment" one of a myriad of personal experiences that only have reality within the mind of the experiencer.

But this means that enlightenment isn't anything special. In fact, it may not even exist as a genuine subjective reality, since it could refer only to a normal state of being that certain religions or spiritual path have elevated to a special experience.

For example, some Buddhists view enlightenment as being totally immersed and accepting of the present moment. I, and everyone else, am capable of doing this. Not always, but often. So this makes me "enlightened" at times, along with everybody else in the world.

The fact that there's no agreement about what enlightenment means is strong evidence that it doesn't really exist except as a religious/spiritual concept.

Comments

[manjit]

Hi Brian - I have responded to your response copied in this blog entry on the other thread:

http://hinessight.blogs.com/church_of_the_churchless/2018/07/existence-is-entirely-futile-a-brave-essay-on-the-human-condition.html?cid=6a00d83451c0aa69e2022ad35cdf14200c#comment-6a00d83451c0aa69e2022ad35cdf14200c

However, I feel I need to point out both the incoherency & mean-spirited-ness of your comments in this blog.

You write: "Well, lots of people claim to have been abducted by aliens, which doesn't mean this actually happens. "

Again and again you miss the point entirely! Yes "enlightenment is a meaningless concept"; as has been stated by absolutely every single person who has had a "taste" of this "enlightenment" in real life!

If people "claim to have been abducted by aliens", perhaps (by which I mean CERTAINLY, at least in some cases - again, the evidence for this and related phenomena going back millennia is absolutely over-whelming but no doubt whatsoever not known to Brian, "JB" etc) they have experienced SOMETHING actually ineffable, and that all you are arguing against is the concept of "alien abduction" (and all it's dreary, literal ramifications; how they got here, why would they do such a thing etc) rather than acknowledging they have had an unusual, subject experience with numerous associated phenomena (like synchronicity, "poltergeist" type phenomena, physical marks or "stigmata" of abduction etc etc....all very well documented and with repeated patterns throughout human history, although framed in different terminology such as demons, faeries, succubus/incubus attacks etc) that is fascinating and potentially reveals a great deal about human "being", "self" and consciousness regardless of what the ultimate "explanation" may be. (rather than ignorantly dismissing it as if these FACTS and data do not even exist simply because we haven't taken the time to investigate it, instead opting to out-source intellectual responsibility to ideologues & charlatans such as Shermer, Randi et al)

Again, not understanding or having the "experience" yourself, you are transparently debating a straw-man conceptual proxy of an experiential reality that every single person who has even remotely tasted it has said is beyond concepts! How utterly futile!

You write: "So again, Manjit is arguing that because people say there is such a thing as enlightenment, this means there is such a thing as enlightenment. Which, of course, is untrue, since people often say things that are false. (Just watch President Trump talk.)"

No, hardly ANYBODY says there is such a "thing" as enlightenment.....almost without any exception, people say the label "enlightenment" is a linguistic signifier of a state of being, or consciousness or reality that is BEYOND "thingy-ness" and linguistic signifiers of any sort! You do not understand what it is you're arguing against, transparently so, it is mere conceptual masturbation! You are arguing against the CONCEPT of "enlightenment", and only a fool would care about the "concept" of it.

You have not had any kind of experience you could remotely claim to be "enlightenment" (or, indeed, any other type of the various "mystical" experiences there, without any doubt, are!).

But, beyond this, the sense I get from comments like yours and "JB's" is, that you doubt the overwhelming body of testimony of such a "state" (even though it is beyond "states".....what you gonna do with this conceptual straight-jacket of linguistic structures? It seems it's the only jacket you've ever worn, and don't even believe other jackets exist!) is honest, genuine and sincere.....you mention Trump as if to associate his lack of concern with "truth" with all those many thousands throughout human history who have provided their own testimony......you doubt their claims.

This is fair and simply enough.

As many people will know, though, you are profoundly and unmistakably mistaken! :) Caught within your own conceptual loops with no experience "beyond", you imagine millennia of testimony from often the most upright, decent, honest examples of human being humanity has ever produced are somehow lying or exaggerating or manipulating or simply "mistaken" (mistaken about what? There are no concepts there, no teachings, no good & bad, no hint of duality of any sort.....you are debating your own shadow of your own conceptual interpretations of "enlightenment" as a concept, not a subjective and experiential "state" of being.....you keep demeaning the subjective as if there has ever been a science, philosophy, belief, concept, experience etc that WASN'T held by a subjective, a profound delusion in itself!

Do you believe science, logic and reason are not held by a "subject", that they are anything other than "subjective fantasies" of human consciousness?

Do you not realise how delusional, factually speaking, an idea that is?

Not realising there is NOTHING BUT the "subjective", you cannot even begin to conceive what "subjective" states of consciouess & being exist.

Who's loss is it?

The title of your other thread was "Existence is utterly futile".

You are a peddler of defective wares, Brian. Even an atheist should be able to appreciate the immense and magnificent awe, beauty & wonder of creation.....so sad, such a shame, people locked into their own private conceptual, logical, rational, materialist, nihilist, hells......

Better to just be quiet, and pay attention to your own state of being and consciousness, rather than dismissing those of others you yourself have do not understand.....

Shalom :)

[Dungeness]

For example, some Buddhists view enlightenment as being totally immersed and accepting of the present moment. I, and everyone else, am capable of doing this. Not always, but often. So this makes me "enlightened" at times, along with everybody else in the world.

The mystic says there's good news and bad news about
that.

For the briefest sliver of time, We may feel relaxed,
immersed, totally accepting of the present moment. At
least notionally, we can declare ourselves enlightened.
However, this putative enlightenment is at best transient,
maybe a few seconds if that. It's an eye-blink between
thoughts or arguably just a lack of awareness of them.

Mindfulness practioners, including the Dalai Llama mention
several channels of the mind teeming with thoughts and
imagery. Mystics assert that the mind's activity is 24x7.
Ishwar Puri recounts a humorous incident in which a
colleague demo'ed an asana during which he asserted he
could stop thinking for a full minute. On examination,
he recalled he had thoughts the entire time including
about the hand clap Ishwar would give to signal 60
seconds was up.

True enlightenment, among other things, uncovers these
levels of thought. You aren't enlightened living in a
blinkered state unaware of your thoughts. They're in
control even if you declare blissfully, that you're living
"in the moment".

[Dungeness]

For example, some Buddhists view enlightenment as being totally immersed and accepting of the present moment. I, and everyone else, am capable of doing this. Not always, but often. So this makes me "enlightened" at times, along with everybody else in the world.

The mystic says there's good news and bad news about
that.

For the briefest sliver of time, We may feel relaxed,
immersed, totally accepting of the present moment. At
least notionally, we can declare ourselves enlightened.
However, this putative enlightenment is at best transient,
maybe a few seconds if that. It's an eye-blink between
thoughts or arguably just a lack of awareness of them.

Mindfulness practioners, including the Dalai Llama mention
several channels of the mind teeming with thoughts and
imagery. Mystics assert that the mind's activity is 24x7.
Ishwar Puri recounts a humorous incident in which a
colleague demo'ed an asana during which he asserted he
could stop thinking for a full minute. On examination,
he recalled he had thoughts the entire time including
about the hand clap Ishwar would give to signal 60
seconds was up.

True enlightenment, among other things, uncovers these
levels of thought. You aren't enlightened living in a
blinkered state unaware of your thoughts. They're in
control even if you declare blissfully, that you're living
"in the moment".

[Jesse]

A lot of you supposed mystics get really upset when someone tells you that your ideas are vapid.
But shortly after throwing your temper tantrums you hurl insults at everyone who hurts your feelings.
How do you have the audacity to claim to have all these revelatory and life altering experiences but lack the self control to refrain from the most obvious forms of hypocrisy?

Not trusting alien stories and the belief in supposed mysticism now means one is living in a materialist hell?

Tell yourself what you must to keep your fragile psychologies together but don't expect anyone to believe you, especially considering that one of the main selling points of popular mysticism is how strong and honest it makes you.

For all of you here, I can verify that your practice isn't working to transform you into much more than a holes with varying levels of religious belief. I'm happy being an a hole non believer. No more hellish than self deception.

[manjit]

Hehe....hi Jesse, you write "A lot of you supposed mystics get really upset when someone tells you that your ideas are vapid.
But shortly after throwing your temper tantrums you hurl insults at everyone who hurts your feelings. "

It should be quite clear who gets upset, whose ideas, if they can even be called that, are "vapid", and who throws "temper tantrums" and "hurls insults" by all your recent posts here :)

You write, incoherently: "Not trusting alien stories and the belief in supposed mysticism now means one is living in a materialist hell?"

No my friend; try to pay attention. The title of the recent blog post I made those comments in was called "Existence is entirely futile".

Again, pay attention!

These recent posts have, transparently, been examples of people without any real knowledge, experience or understanding of a subject & experience, projecting their own fears, inadequecies, doubts, lack of experience & understanding etc, upon an experience that is entirely alien and unfamiliar to them.

This may strike you all as very smart and intelligent.....but surely it will strike any thoughtful person as worthless conjecture?

You write: "Tell yourself what you must to keep your fragile psychologies together" & "No more hellish than self deception."

Indeed, my friend, indeed.

Not a one of us can escape the lies and delusions we tell ourselves and then try to sell to others, not a single one of us.

[manjit]

"Not a one of us can escape the lies and delusions we tell ourselves and then try to sell to others, not a single one of us."

Brian: "Existence is entirely futile"

"With the author's permission, here's a highly thoughtful, well-reasoned, nicely-written email message I received recently that presents a stark, but persuasive, perspective on the human condition.

I enjoyed reading about what led this person to change from a hopeful spiritual person to a nihilistic atheist."

Yes, often there is nothing more hellish than self-deception.

[manjit]

"Yes, often there is nothing more hellish than self-deception."

Self-deception #1: That there has ever been a scientific observation or measurement outside of a subjective awareness of it.

Self-deception #2: That there is even a remotely coherent material explanation - or even something 100 years near approaching one - for consciousness.

Self-deception #3: Because I haven't had a certain type of experience, it must be worthless or even non-existant.

Self-deception #4: That the "Big-Bang" theory, something out of nothing, is NOT a "supernatural" theory.

Self-deception #5: Because I have never experienced anything or state "outside" of the limits of linearity, rationality, time, concepts, linguistic structures, that such an experience cannot exist.

Self-deception #6: Because there is no dualistic evidence of non-dualism, non-dualism cannot exist.

Self-deception #7: Because I am trapped within an intellectual & conceptual loop of materialism and atheism, and now feel "existence is entirely futile" & "enjoy" other people also entering into this "nihilistic atheist" position, this MUST be the truth, as I am so clever & so must they be. This absolutely must be the ultimate nature of reality, I, an evolved ape, have solved the mystery of all consciousness and reality; and it is nihilistic and entirely futile. You are delusional if you have knowledge & experience that contains yet transcends this perspective.

That's enough self-deception for today, please come again :)

[Jesse]

Manjit, you can't conquer narcissism and passive aggressivenes, don't bother trying to convince people of astral worlds.

By the way, do you think I read what you write? For every 20 words anyone posts you write 1000 word essays in response, most of which is gibberish.

I find midwits to be the easiest to troll.

Jesse

[manjit]

"By the way, do you think I read what you write? For every 20 words anyone posts you write 1000 word essays in response, most of which is gibberish."

That you have no substance to share or express seems like an odd thing to be proud about? You don't read what I write? That explains YOUR gibberish in response, does it not?! At least you have an excuse!

"I find midwits to be the easiest to troll."

Yes, I think you have revealed your "trolling" tendencies quite well! When you ask a personal question with no context, to which I then reply fully & honestly, merely asking you why you ask....you you don't even have the courtesy to reply at all?

I think you have revealed everything there is to know about your character, person, sincerity, knowledge etc that there is to know.

Remain at the sidelines, without anything of any value or substance to contribute, criticising and judging others & making juvenile accusations, insults & comments.

Good luck with that brother...it is your life to lead as you wish......"troll" away! :)

Manjit

[manjit]

Anger, bitterness, judgement, a sense of intellectual superiority?

These are heavy burdens to live with. And some posters express absolutely nothing but those sentiments, vacuous of substance, knowledge, experience & insight....they share their bitterness as if it is the ultimate elixir of reality, "truth" distilled.

"Existence is entirely futile".

WAKE UP.....have another look at existence, but without your conceptual & intellectual blinders!

[Jesse]

Manjit, I would just call you accurate names, but that's frowned on here. I wish you would just call me names instead of trying to show off your fedora.

The reason I asked your IQ, which you claimed you didn't want to talk about before writing a 5 page essay on it, was because people who read a lot but aren't in the far above average spectrum tend to think they have all the answers, with a corresponding inability to say anything precise. Thus your long essays where nothing gets said other than tons of appeals to authority ie "read this person!!! They're an expert!"

Make a point for once other than pointing to references that lead to the "alternative sciences" part of my local library.

You're not the attention commanding genius you seem to want to be and I've yet to be convinced of anything you've spent a long time trying to convince me of.

Enlightened people and mystics are simply put, people who talk about enlightenment and mysticism. Outside of that definition, there is no such category.

[manjit]

Dear Jesse, you write: "You're not the attention commanding genius you seem to want to be and I've yet to be convinced of anything you've spent a long time trying to convince me of."

Hehe, ceaselessly amusing :)

I'm not trying to convince you of & I don't "want to be" anything - again, you do not understand the experience or my state of consciousness, it is outside of your frame of personal experience & understanding, and I really couldn't care if or think you will understand in the slightest - you're merely a stooge, a foil....for the inanity of the position you present.

You have nothing of any value, either personally or "appeal to authority", absolutely nothing, other than your ad hominen vitriol and self-admitted "trolling" to contribute. This is, now, exceptionally clear....this whole "discussion" has descending into meaningless pettiness & personal insult (based on a bruised ego) entirely because you are unable to make any coherent, substantial, informative, knowledgeable comments, despite you apparently imaging you were an "attention grabbing genius" yourself. Your sense of hurt pride is palpable; that is of your own making.

And you think that proves your argument is more valid than what I've been sharing?

Self-delusion #8: Look above!

If you have anything of any actual value, information, personal or "appeal to authority" of any sort that actually contributes in any meaningful way to our trying to understand the human condition, I will try to respond (though I seriously, seriously doubt it).

As it is, I will have to bow out and let you wallow in your own muck, imagining it no doubt to be beautifully scented lotus flowers!

Peace, Manjit

[Jesse]

Here's what is hard to understand for me.

If anyone thinks I'm stupid and uneducated, it would make sense since I make no attempt to prove anything other than my contempt for people I believe are dishonest.

But how could you consider yourself reasonable to come to a site written by a man who frequently writes about cognition, mysticism, the supernatural, gurus and saints, and who himself followed closely the instructions of a supposed saint for decades, and try to paint him as some unlettered rube who only today has learned of this subject?

When you tell Brain that "he doesn't understand" and is "ignorant" you're really failing to understand who you're talking to and the knowledge he's already proven to have accumulated.

Maybe mysticism is just a really dumb thing to many people, including ex-mystics. Maybe really intelligent and knowledgable people like Brian simply aren't swayed by the accumulated stories about people seeing things in the sky or in their heads.

The ex-cultist usually had to go through all these arguments themselves as a path out. Those still in the cult fail to see this.

[Jesse]

"Anger, bitterness, judgement, a sense of intellectual superiority?

These are heavy burdens to live with. And some posters express absolutely nothing but those sentiments, vacuous of substance, knowledge, experience & insight....they share their bitterness as if it is the ultimate elixir of reality, "truth" distilled."

You're finally looking in the mirror. Glad to see you've become self aware.

[manjit]

Jesse; "When you tell Brain that "he doesn't understand" and is "ignorant" you're really failing to understand who you're talking to and the knowledge he's already proven to have accumulated."

Hey? You seem somewhat confused, Jesse?

Brian has himself ADMITTED he is literally ignorant and has not had any kind of meaningful "spiritual" or "mystical" experience?

Forget the lofty heights of "enlightenment", our brother Hines hasn't even had a meagerly OBE, or heard the shabd and been pulled out of his body (like many, many others including I suspect David Lane have) or any other kind of notable mystical experience.

In his OWN words....so he is LITERALLY by definition ignore-ant of the experience.

You keep telling yourself, deluding yourself, that either you or Brian have seen past "mysticism" even though you haven't taken a tiny babies step. Delude yourself that the "really intelligent and knowledgeable people like Brian" have understood all their is to know about mystical experience, creation & consciousness.

That is one hell of a stupendous delusion, if you ask me.....isn't it self-evident and obviously so?

I think your own comment is most appropriate, here, but aimed at you: "Tell yourself what you must to keep your fragile psychologies together but don't expect anyone to believe you, "

Indeed, it is very, very evident this is so. People will create any kind of mental & conceptual fantasy - not based on experience or knowledge, but via appeals to authorities such as Brian (:-o), or Sam Harris or Susan Blackmore.

All intellectual masturbation and fantasy.....transparently and factually so.

[manjit]

"You're finally looking in the mirror. Glad to see you've become self aware."

Okay, I admit it Jesse, you got me there, I can't argue with that! The old "I know you are but what am I"....how wonderfully witty, knowledgeable, informative, inspiring, wise........hold on, wait.....

:)

[Jesse]

Are you enlightened Manjit?

Yes or no.

[Joe]

Manjit said:

"You keep looking for dualistic material indicators of what every single "experiencer" has said is beyond all duality; it is a vain, intellectual, circular type of thinking.....even though nobody has ever claimed thinking can explain it."

One of the problems here, in my opinion, is the difference between actually describing something as it is, and trying to describe something from a particular perspective. For instance, if you try to describe enlightenment from a rational, materialistic perspective, it becomes near impossible because it doesn't fit into the rational materialistic view.

However, if you describe it as it is, or attempt to, you might get something like this:

"Non-dual awareness is the highest or ultimate state of consciousness. The Nondual—or “Svabhavikakaya”as it is known in Vajrayana Buddhism — integrates everything that is present, and is not some other or separate realm. It is the union of all opposites and is simultaneously the ground of being from which all apparent objects and entities arise. It is one with both emptiness and form and is the greatest state that any tradition has confirmed exists. It is considered the fullest expression of enlightenment."

That's Ken Wilbur's description.

If you have ever had that experience, which is the experience of unity consciousness, then it sort of makes sense (though I have heard a few better descriptions, just can't find them right now). Otherwise it is just a string of words.

If you have ever had the experience of the empty witness you can imagine that extended to include all phenomenon and then you get the idea of unity consciousness.

It seems inherently meaningful the further you go down, up or into that, but not for any particularly explainable reason. Just is.

[One Initiated]

Jesse:
"By the way, do you think I read what you write? For every 20 words anyone posts you write 1000 word essays in response"

Ha ha -- I had a great laugh of the day by reading this sentence :)

I agree he writes lengthy texts but not always gibberish.
For example the one about the scientific innovations in trans state,
was an interesting read actually.
And I also noted you skipped that discussion
mentioning "Manjit, I'm over this garbage."

It denotes the lack of patience, isn't it?

[Jesse]

One,

I was over arguing. Now I'm arguing again.

I have little to no patience. Being a non mystic, I should be expected to have less patience than all the saints here, but it seems that might not be the case.

The reason I skipped that one about hypnotized inventors was because it was too long, and because I know how, together, cherry picking examples and confirmation bias make the ultimate combo for believers of all kinds.

One of the blogs I frequent for political news is written by an autistic Christian genius who makes a better case for why Christianity is the main contributor to scientific development than anyone here can make about... well anything really. Yet, as great as the case he makes for Christianity is, I still think it's bullsh*t. You'd have to do something really special to make me believe that ecstatic transcendent states, that aren't just byproducts of high (or low) functioning brains, add any value to the stupid things we call progress or that they exist at all.

Jesse

[One Initiated]

Well, nobody, but only you can prove it to yourself.

Spend 40 continuous days,
wake up at 3 AM and do it till 5:30 AM.

If you've just being a cribbing baby,
no one could help at all, not even yourself,
but if you are sincere;
40 days isn't a big timespan for experimenting,
if you are really inquisitive to know the truth.

If you will, you get to know what's happening,
is certainly not ONLY mind things,
but something far and beyond the comprehension of mind.

[manjit]

Hi Joe - thank you for your very thoughtful comment & the wonderful quote! It reminds us what is worthy of being called a "comment"!

Look, I haven't got the slightest clue as to what "enlightenment" is or isn't, what "it's" ultimate ontological significance is, if it has "objective" neuro-biological indicators on not (I suspect strongly there are some. For eg., to highlight the ridiculous nature of Brian's perspective, just what kind of "scientific evidence" for "enlightenment" does he actually expect? Perhaps something like this: "Meet the world's happiest man.......who has displayed unheard of brain gamma waves." & "In order to actually quantify how happy Ricard truly is, neuroscientists from the University of Wisconsin hooked him up to 256 sensors, which they attached to his skull. After being hooked up to the sensors, he focused attention on compassion. During his meditation, Ricard's brain produced gamma waves off the charts! His brain also displayed intense amount of activity in his prefrontal cortex, equating to an overly large capacity for happiness, according to researchers." http://www.higherperspectives.com/unheard-of-brain-activity-1406160226.html .....Now, the retort to this from armchair sceptical philosophers is, "well, this is just normal human brain waves, only exceptional in the sense they have altered their physical brain structure through exercise, much like a weight lifter building their muscles" etc. Well, what "evidence" ARE they expecting? The MRI scanner to turn into a milk drinking Ganesha statue? No, honestly, WHAT evidence would "suffice" to suggest there may just be *something* to all these millions of reports through millennia and across all human cultures and societies of anecdotal evidence of "something" some begrudgingly label "enlightenment" which radically, permanently & unmistakably alters their sense of "self"?).

I haven't got a clue what is going on, if there is a "material" explanation or not. I merely share my own personal experience honestly & sincerely (and, this may mean nothing to many cynical readers here, but may the God/Reality/Universe strike me down where I stand if I intentionally lie or exaggerate about anything personal!). I hope that future generations, far smarter people than I, will be able to make sense out of it and postulate models (materialist, philosophical, psychological, "spiritual", or perhaps a combination of all!) that actually take into account the very real & vast spectrum of experiences that humans can have. As I have repeatedly stated, though, I highly doubt the value or insight of comments like Brian's, "JB" or Jesse's, people who have not even had a remotely "mystical" experience, who conjecture as to it's significance....and show their mean-spirited & bigoted hand by ultimately even doubting the honesty, sincerity, intelligence of every single mystic throughout history who has shared their own experience and testimony. This is a land of paranoid conspiratorial thinking which I personally think is transparently delusional and a reflection of the "existence is entirely futile" and "atheistic nihilism" mindset it self-admittedly comes from.

Personally I am infinitely fascinated and obsessed by the subject and I am an endless "seeker" in that sense....I, personally....and I know this is selfish in many way, but I'm happy that all this endless "seeking" is tinged with perpetual joy, awe, astonishment, wonder & ecstasy at the mystery of my existence and reality....it is, as the Buddha said, the joy of jhana, which helps us to a "happy living in the here and now", even if that ISN'T "Nirvana" (or "enlightenment"?), which is beyond even ecstatic states of consciousness entirely. I have also known, personally & intimately, the "hell-world" or bardo of "existence is entirely futile" and "atheistic nihilism"; in my experience, this is a very miserable and unpleasant loop of intellectual thinking to get stuck in, and I am immediately reminded of those many, many NDE experiencers who have found themselves in "hellish" environments where they weren't prodded with pitch-forks but instead caught up in their own negative, nihilistic, atheist & materialist views.....amazingly, the only thing preventing them from escaping this self-created prison of limited & limiting thought patterns, is their own unwillingness to even be open to the possibility of "light" (or, as in Eben Alexander's case, a ringing "sound" :) which can immediately transport them from out of this negative, depressive "hell" into regions of immense love & light. Now, NDEs may just be some sort of psychological metaphor - I mean, who knows apart from our resident experts who've never read a single impartial book on NDEs, but only some atheist's mindless & irrelevant rebuttal of ancient straw-man arguments at most!? - but regardless, these experiences ARE reflecting some kind of reality about the human mind, are they not? That's just basic psychology!

I am always open to critical & scientific discussions and models for these "experiences".....this is why I was reading huge DSM (psychological diagnostic book) & abnormal psychology books as a young teenager, why I deeply looked into the works of Ramachandran, read Oliver Sacks' books etc. After 30 years of this kind of research (I remain basically uneducated, with no wife or children, a relatively menial job, little wealth etc for a reason We all have our own interests! :), I have realised that science, neuro-science, biology, psychology and psychiatry haven't even got a remotely coherent and holistic model for EVERYDAY, mundane consciousness and being, let alone unusual, "altered states of consciousness". That people who have done only the most superficial and "pop" of research into these things and instead out-source their responsibility via appeals to authorities such as Shermer, Randi, Harris, Blackmore (even, my gosh, our very own "extremely intelligent and knowledgeable Brian" who has never had a "mystical experience" in his entire life as he himself admits! :-o) etc assume all these things have, or almost have been, totally explained is profound delusion and disconnect with the real world. Unexamined superficial bigotry and dogma disconnected from the actual facts and findings of science based on an exposure to modern pop-media propaganda and ideology; brainwashing.

"Enlightenment"? Just a label, a linguistic device that is only a place-holder that is really just saying "something ineffable".....but a very real & experiential phenomena ubiquitous throughout human history, across all divides of culture, religion, race etc. Argue against that place-holder, that conceptual shadow, all you like, it is meaningless & worthless conjecture!

[manjit]

Jesse writes: "The reason I skipped that one about hypnotized inventors was because it was too long,"

Oh, I see! :) I thought it was because you realised you had inadvertently yet arrogantly stumbled into a conversation you was woefully & inadequately informed about, found yourself completely out of your depth in a discussion for which you constantly kept putting your foot in your own mouth (I'm a "genius"? You mean I'm a guardian deity or tutelary spirit, the very definition of "genius" because for centuries people associated the "mystical" experiences you don't care or listen, indeed ignorantly mock, with advanced human intelligence & achievement? or the occultist who was instrumental in space travel? etc etc) and that you had been caught out in your factually and demonstrably erroneous, bigoted & unexamined claims about a subject you have absolutely zero knowledge and experience with?

:)

I'll ask you again, Jesse, do you have any knowledge, experience or insight of ANY value or substance to add to these discussions, or are you merely interested in demonstrating and sharing your transparent bitterness, anger, lack of knowledge & experience, your self-admitted "contempt" for people and your self-admitted "trolling" of posters who share their own ACTUAL knowledge and experience?

Self-delusion is a wonderful psychological coping mechanism, is it not? I am sure you believe your comments have been extremely witty, insightful, intelligent, wise etc? I suggest you reconsider that particular delusion....:)

Cheers!

[Arjuna]

@ thought of the day. A lot of you have too much time on your hands!

We should not be debating the Path - Brian Hines left. Rather we should be seeking ways to improve our lives and others. Granted RSSB does very little in charity terms- how many sevadars does Gurinder send to help with relief missions where disasters strike.

That’s true seva is it not. I shall leave you boys and girls to it!!!!!

And to the mind warriors or the so called intellectuals - don’t forget to take your vitamins. Using all that genius brain power needs supplements.

I will not be commenting on this blog from now as it’s not what I thought it was. I really hope Brian finds what he is seeking - take this the right way Brian - by creating this blog you have in a way shaken things up a bit but also you have shown to the people who cling on to RSSB that there really isn’t much out on the real world either. And as for your atheism- that’s poppy cock too. Nonsense pure and simple. I believe there is a creator but where is it?

Have a great life all of you. Good bye !!!!

[manjit]

Hey Arjuna! You write: "A lot of you have too much time on your hands!"

Indeed.....but I can think of quite a few other less productive & indeed destructive ways of passing ones time? I live in greater London....I see patterns of behaviour in close friends, family, neighbours, work colleagues etc that seem like they're far more likely of causing suffering, misery, addiction, despression, guilt etc, than occasionally spending several hours a week online, essentially using these blogs and forums as diary entries to ones own self, sounding boards etc?

You mention: "I will not be commenting on this blog from now as it’s not what I thought it was."

If I may ask, what DID you think it was?! :)

Regardless, if you don't respond, I wish you all the best to you on your life journey and path, may it be full of many periods of joy, happiness, peace & contentment!

Peace,

Manjit

[777]

Please know
that God ( the Highest ) is not enlightened
He gave IQ to the Angels upto 9999

He knows only LOVE !

Stop trying to understand these Angels . . . Can't be done

BUT You have the Crown, Chakra, . . . YOU can LOVE better than Angels

Again : God's IQ is Zero, a full beautiful Zero

777

[manjit]

Dear 777, you write: "Please know that God ( the Highest ) is not enlightened"

Ah. Seeing as "en-lightened" literally means "made luminous" or "put light in", that is a strange statement to make as somebody who is following and advocating a "path" of light and sound to "know that God"? :)

777: "He knows only LOVE !"

Agreed! (and as I've said myself many, many, many times over the years.....intellect is brushed aside during any semi-deep "mystical experience" and "love" is the sole current of creation)

However, ironically, I will CONDITION this "LOVE" that you mention.

And that condition is....there are NO conditions to it!

That means it doesn't matter whether you are initiated by a billionaire satguru, or worship a stone idol with REAL love and devotion like Dhanna Bhagat did (Charan Singh: "I feel that I am like a stone idol in a temple. According to their notions of love, some bathe it with cold water, some with hot water, and some deck it in fine clothes, but it is still an idol all the same."), or if you are an atheist or a sceptic, a critic and faith-abuser, a homosexual (Charan Singh: "Homosexuality is contrary to all laws of Nature and no decent society approves it. The act is humiliating and degenerating not only in the eyes of others, but also in the eyes of those who are involved…") or straight, a sinner or a saint.....love is the great leveller, and grants instant & immediate "access" to "Sach Khand", "Enlightenment", "Suchness" etc - go straight to GO - regardless or not if you've had the good fortune to have a high enough IQ to be able to discern which of the many thousands of Indian businessman is the "real" Godman or not.

Other than that, I quite agree!

Cheers! :)

[One Initiated]

hi Arjuna,

but I am sure you are going to read these comments :)
It's not easy to get hooked to a place,
once hooked, It's not easy to leave it either :)

And I think it's even true for all those who says
that they have left The Path (RSSB). In actuality they couldn't leave it.

I hope you are doing good and continuing
with the target of 40 continuous days ? are you ?

If you are keeping that zeal in you,
I would just mention if anyhow the continuity is broken
in the middle - then consider the next day as day no. 1
and start again with the target of 40 days.
The results will be tremendous.

Also brother, if you'd again want to post a comment,
don't hold yourself back from posting it
just because you've mentioned above, to not posting it again :)
I did thought of staying away and not post anything,
but I must say it's an inviting place and sometimes very tempting to post :)

The most non-sensical corporate phrase popular these days:
"I want to make this world a better place"

Every entrepreneur does a startup with the above phrase,
and they end up making the bank statement a lot better,
technologies a bit more better and this world much more worse place.

p.s. a lot of them actually end up making bank statement, technologies and world,
all three a lot worse - ha ha !!

Saints says this clearly and openly:

"Saints are not here to make this world a better place,
For if they wanted to do so, it should have been done by now
They are here to guide the ones who long for HIS love"

Words of current Master (in the english Satsang at Delhi):

The irony is that we as human beings, try so hard to achieve a spiritual experience,
In actuality we are Spiritual beings, going through a human experience,
We just need to sit, meditate and realise our own real identity.

Lots of Love.

[Turan]

If as the brain sciences and Zen/Chan point out that the mind and self are merely mental structures giving rise to the feeling/impression of an 'I', a 'me' somewhere 'in there', who (or what) is there to be enlightened?

No doubt ecstatic, blissful feelings, visions, experiences of oneness, presence and so on regularly occur to many. Such experiences can be amazing, even helpful in our lives. They may even give the impression that one has tasted enlightened. It seems that it could be a case of our dear old friend thought confusing something not understood to be something special – then give it a name such as enlightenment and then aspire to attain it.

Whether these experiences are assigned to being merely chemical reactions going on in the brain or something metaphysical is to miss the point. Where it is seen that there is no 'me'/'self', there is no 'person' to be enlightened in the first place and the question itself could be wrong. Maybe as the above Buddhists say 'we are all already enlightened', it is simply obscured by thinking there is something special to be attained.

Maybe as the previous blog of 'The Wooden Bowl' with the simple life of Deh Chun describes enlightenment. Do we over-complicate life with our thinking, with our longings, with our fears and insecurities where we look for something more meaningful and permanent than this actual life?

[Jesse]

"I can think of quite a few other less productive & indeed destructive ways of passing ones time"

Can't disagree with Manjt on this. Trolling and arguing online has probably saved my life and helped me retain irl friends who don't want to hear about this stuff I think about most of the day.

It's either blathering online in useless polemics about political topics and enlightenment, or walking on paths through the woods (which is what I'll leave to do immediately after this comment.) A few hours in the woods is enough for me.

Without these conversations there's a temptation to hang out in bars and chase terrible women, which my wife wouldn't appreciate. Gonna stick to the life of a troll for now.

And to Arjun- just do your thing, If you have stuff to do, go do it. If you want to comment here later, come back. The "vibe" of this site changes a lot over time as different posters aside from the dedicated regulars come and go.

Jesse

[D.r]

Brian, if I may ask, why are you allowing a person that admits they are a troll to continuing trolling your blog message board?

[Brian Hines]

D.r,, Jesse has a sense of humor and doesn't take himself very seriously. I appreciate these qualities. I took his mention of him being a "troll" in an ironic sense. Meaning, that's the way he is looked upon by true believers who disagree with what is, to me, his appealing sense of skepticism toward mystical/religious claims that can't be backed up by either solid reasoning or evidence.

Believe me, after fourteen years of reading comments on this Church of the Churchless blog, I know what genuine trolls are like. By contrast, Jesse pretty much stays to the topic of a post that he's commenting on, and keeps his personal insults within the bounds of what passes for "normal" on the Internet these days.

I try to be quite loose and accepting of comments. This makes it easier on me, since I no longer moderate comments, which required that I read them before approving them. It also makes for more lively comment conversations, since they can happen in closer to real time.

The main downside is that commenting can slide into name-calling, repetitive statements that don't add much to a discussion, and off-topic postings that turn off people who are understandably expecting that comments on a post I've written will have something to do with the subject of the post. I'm willing to put up with these drawbacks.

[Brian Hines]

D.r, a P.S.

What I've observed is that fervent believers in supernatural religion and mysticism are considerably more "fanatic" on this blog that secular rationalists are. Probably this is because the worldview of true believers is intimately wrapped up with their sense of self, self-esteem, self-worth, and the like.

Atheists have lives to live. They/we have families, jobs, civic activities, hobbies, friends, and so on that constitute the bulk of their awareness.

But often true believers feel they have to defend whatever supposed supernatural truth, or channel of that truth, they believe in, or their sense of self will be threatened. I saw this in myself when I was a true believer, and I've observed it many times in other people.

So I'm willing to give true believers quite a bit of slack in their commenting, because I realize that their fervor stems from a deep psychological need to defend their spiritual territory, so to speak. People like Jesse are more relaxed, more humorous, more joking, because their sense of self isn't so tied up in winning a comment battle.

[manjit]

Oh good grief Brian, this is so self-serving and self-deceitful!

First of all, it is clear in Jesse's comment/s yesterday & indeed today he realises he has been "trolling" - your re-interpretation of that as him being the sole possessor of a "sense of humour" is itself completely laughable! Regardless, better he let off steam here than in "real life"!

"What I've observed is that fervent believers in supernatural religion and mysticism are considerably more "fanatic" on this blog that secular rationalists are. Probably this is because the worldview of true believers is intimately wrapped up with their sense of self, self-esteem, self-worth, and the like."

Huh? Again, you appear to think you have a good understanding of the psyche & sense of others, when you appear to have no grasp of your own! Mysticism is itself the practice of unravelling the self; you cannot understand this as you've never had any sort of "mystical experience", so will inevitably filter all interactions through your wall of unexamined & incoherent "nihilist atheist" materialist dogma and beliefs, whoever agrees with you is now apparently a mystic who is not i-dentified with "their sense of self, self-esteem, self-worth" etc, and whoever doesn't is a "true believer" who are "fanatic" with no "sense of humour".

This is incredibly self-delusional; do you really think Jesse was "more joking" and his "sense of self isn't so tied up in winning a comment battle" than me or anyone else? Just because I happened to demonstrate with copious examples his factually erroneous and ignorant comments, does not mean I was tied up in "winning" that "comment battle". It just so happened to be that way. Jesse's reaction; descent into irrelevant ad hominem insults (which you no doubt considered "witty" because this is typical cultic behaviour, with atheists not being exempt from such behaviour) and self admitted "trolling" indicates HIS sense of "self" was indeed offended, does it not?

Finally, you write: "Atheists have lives to live. They/we have families, jobs, civic activities, hobbies, friends, and so on that constitute the bulk of their awareness."

I assume this is cheap-shot at the fact I mentioned I have no wife and children? That's fine; it was entirely expected :)

Because people have mystical experience (again, something you do not understand AT ALL, so think you understand who has the better of the deal, but only conjecturally) - or heaven forbid, no wife & children (how easy is to mate & have children? Which animal doesn't do it?) - that means they don't have lives to live? Do you not notice your horrendous, self-serving & delusional behaviour here?

"Atheists have lives to live. They/we have families, jobs, civic activities, hobbies, friends, and so on that constitute the bulk of their awareness..""

Again, Sir, I ask you who has spent a lifetime holding satsangs preaching to people a belief that he subsequently preached against (with almost 100% certainty the same level of personal "knowledge" & experience in both cases)? Who releases books, insinuating they have wisdom worthy of sharing? Who has a blog to share his thoughts with all and sundry with regular updates?

But yet you pidgeon-hole & think you understand the psychology of people having "mystical experiences", who come here for one or two weeks in a year, do a quick dump of knowledge you patently are unable to share yourself, and then don't return for months or years (with no books, no blogs to sell etc) ? People who can share passionately & intensely, then completely drop it with no public presence for months or years at a time - you understand that lack of self-identification with these show & tells we have?

Have you considered all you wrote above is a fantasy based on your own self of hurt " sense of self, self-esteem, self-worth, and the like.", a projection and transference of your own and Jesse's recent behaviour here? That just because he also likes to mindless repeat erroneous "sceptical" claims & mindlessly criticise RSSB, call it's followers idiots or whatever and that he has "contempt" for them, that that blinds you to behaviour that isn't quite as "light and carefree" as you ridiculously try to paint here, in contrast to all us (me?) dogmatic, raving fundamentalists with no life to live?

This is just beneath you Brian.

[Jesse]

No matter the topic, be it the mysteries of the universe, UFO's or Jesse's true inner nature and online intentions, Manjit has the definitive answers.

It's really something else.

[manjit]

Dear Turan, you write: "Where it is seen that there is no 'me'/'self', there is no 'person' to be enlightened in the first place and the question itself could be wrong. Maybe as the above Buddhists say 'we are all already enlightened', it is simply obscured by thinking there is something special to be attained."

Agreed in many ways. The realisation of "no-self" is how I framed my "own" experience myself for several years. Bernadette Roberts speaks wonderfully from this perspective:

http://www.nonduality.com/berna.htm

https://realization.org/p/bernadette-roberts/bodian.roberts-interview.html

As does Stephen Wolinsky in this book:

https://www.amazon.co.uk/You-Are-Not-Beyond-Consciousness/dp/8178222612/

However, whilst not "seeking" something "special", it is worth remembering that it is also not the this self-centred, ego-centric, thought-identified, fear-based, nihlistic state of being and mind, PRETENDING it is somehow "enlightened". We can remain "open", or we can think we "know" something, out of egocentric pride, when we clearly don't. We must all be honest with ourselves, for if we can't do that, what chance being honest with others?

We must have the wisdom and sophistication to realise there is a difference between a parrot repeating "I am free" and somebody who has had some form of genuine "loss of self" (as Bernadette recounts, for eg) - would you agree? If I tell my neighbour to repeat "I am enlightened", does he really have the exact same sense of "self" or consciousness as a well experienced "mystic"? Is that really all we're talking about here? Of course, it goes without saying, somebody who does not really have much experience with any "altered states" at all will readily fall into the delusion that this semantic, linguistic "I am enlightened" actually signifies anything other than another ego-centric delusion?

Finally, Turan, I ask you - this "loss of self", or realisation of "no-self" etc - do you consider labels like "God", "Soul" etc, and comments like I posted from Faqir Chand the other day where he says something like after 93 years of walking the path to see "God", he finally realised he "was not separate" from him.....do you consider these are just different attempts to frame within linguistic structures what is essentially the same "realisation" as Buddha's "no-self", just explained from inverse perspectives?

What I'm getting to, is the utter uselessness of words and concepts to frame mystical experiences; at best they are mere pointers.

[manjit]

Jesse "No matter the topic, be it the mysteries of the universe, UFO's or Jesse's true inner nature and online intentions, Manjit has the definitive answers."

If it walks like a troll, speaks like a troll, and says it is a troll....guess what?

It's probably not a tutelary deity.

:)

Peace.

Does anybody - including Brian - have anything that is not an ad hominem insult couched in wise & reasonable sounding terminology but is really a hurt sense of self - to discuss?

:(

Okay. I know you guys have lives to lead. I guess I better let you all get to it. I can only take "loosing at comments", as immensely important as that is to my sense of self, so many times in a short period of time... I'll just sit here and twiddle my thumbs for a few months, plotting my return, if ya'll will let me!

Seriously though, please forgive me any offence I may have caused with my long winded & rambling posts, incoherent & gibberish as I also find them to be! I sincerely wish you all great joy & peace......till next time! :o)

[Jesse]

"What I'm getting to, is the utter uselessness of words and concepts to frame mystical experiences; at best they are mere pointers."

Manjit, the average length of your posts, at least from the sample size my patience allows me to gather, is something like 700 words, which is longer than an optimal blog post according to a lot of the SEO junk I had to read a while back. Many of those 700 word comments are about mystical experiences that you think are profoundly important.

That's 750 utterly useless pointers you waste precious meditation time on many times a day.

[Jesse]

"Does anybody - including Brian - have anything that is not an ad hominem insult couched in wise & reasonable sounding terminology but is really a hurt sense of self - to discuss?"

Oh my lord, the irony. Here are a few of your very recent "ad hominems couched in wise and reasonable sounding terminology."

MJ says "your re-interpretation of that as him being the sole possessor of a "sense of humour" is itself completely laughable! "

You meant to say "Brain, you're dumb.

MJ says "This is incredibly self-delusional; do you really think Jesse was "more joking" and his "sense of self isn't so tied up in winning a comment battle" than me or anyone else? Just because I happened to demonstrate with copious examples his factually erroneous and ignorant comments, does not mean I was tied up in "winning" that "comment battle"."

Here, Manjit, you could have simply said "Jesse is a prick."

You should read your own comments, dude. It's sort of ridiculous that you don't see how much you project. I don't really care either way, though.

I'd prefer if you weren't so Indo-Brit and would say things like "you're a dick and I hate you. Also, I'm smarter than you" instead of long winded multi paragraph rants that end in smiley faces about my inability, stemming from ignorance, to form coherent rejoinders to your exegesis which were based on well founded research. As if that's not the most passive aggressive thing of all time.

But whatever. I guess maybe that's just all the Hell Yeah America in me.

[Tim Rimmer]

As Turan states ‘Who or what is there to be enlightened?’ I guess we need to delve deep into this question too. How many of us can actually answer it, in light of our understanding, from our own life, insight, ‘spiritual’ and meditational experiences and aspirations? Otherwise like so many other things we generate with our thinking - just assign them to the concepts file.

Using my concepts - when a being attains ‘enlightenment’ such as the Buddha’s example from 2500 years ago (no I cannot remember being there)), history gives this a finality, kind of end of the road perspective to it. However, one could view this as not just the end but more like the start… When folk say someone is ‘enlightened’, to me, this term has more flexibility i.e. there seems to be more of a scale involved - ‘she/he is enlightened … but not fully enlightened’ :-).

Perhaps a better word is just ‘lightened’ - meaning this/that person has sorted out a lot of the mental/emotional baggage that prevents them from engaging in life mindfully (how about ‘mind- less-reactively?) with clear thinking, compassion, confidence and effective action?

‘Existence is essentially futile!’, how about ‘Resistance is futile!’ (Lucretius of Borg).

[Jesse]

"Perhaps a better word is just ‘lightened’ - meaning this/that person has sorted out a lot of the mental/emotional baggage that prevents them from engaging in life mindfully (how about ‘mind- less-reactively?) with clear thinking, compassion, confidence and effective action?"

That's a pretty good way to live, but it doesn't seem like such a big deal. A lot of corporate employees achieve this state for the majority of their lives but I never consider worshipping them or carving 100 foot tall statues of them on the sides of mountains. Though I do have one friend who is so chill that he deserves at least a small photo of himself somewhat conspicuously placed on a semi-prominent area in the city.

My favorite perspective on "enlightenment" probably comes from Siddhartha by Herman Hesse. It's pretty much what you're talking about, or what I said about cha tao in an earlier comment. Just being chill about everything is about as good as it gets.

If your brain malfunctions for a few moments (in a non-aneurysm kind of way) and you hear some cool noises and think you've left your body and entered a place made of light bubbles - AWESOME BONUS, but don't get carried away and start trying to teach people about it.

[Dungeness]

I'd prefer if you weren't so Indo-Brit and would say things like "you're a dick and I hate you. Also, I'm smarter than you" instead of long winded multi paragraph rants that end in smiley faces...

Gosh, I find Manjit's tone refreshing considering the level of vitriol
recently. It's apparent emotional catharsis and trolling is very
important to some. An online street brawl is fun. You get to lob
grenades right and left: "rant", "gibberish", "cult",
"self-deception", "fanatic", "hypnotized", "imposter", "con artist".

Here's to that kinder, gentler Indo-Brit kind of discourse.

Look, ma, no smiley face.

[Jesse]

"I find Manjit's tone refreshing considering the level of vitriol
recently."
Dungeness

"Do you not notice your horrendous, self-serving & delusional behaviour here?"
Manjit

"LOL WOW"
Jesse

[Jim Sutherland]

The only reason I ever check back here once in awhile any more, is to read any thing Manit posts.

The rest is the same ole, lame ole, regurgitated one upmanship Vitriol against some one or other.

At least, Manjit ( and Spence ) offers a little motivation for me not to give up, eat shit and die, just because I’m 76 and over the hill.

My wife said I should go out anf buy my self a Wheel Chair, because I can hardly walk any more.

So I did. I went out and bought a new Harley Davidsom Heritage Soft Tail Classic Motorcycle, 96 Cu. In. 6 speed Fuel injected Black 800 lb. Beast Chromed every where front to back, and have ridden it 1600 miles the last 3 weeks. I love my new Wheel Chair!

Riding a Harley is EXTREME Erotic Meditation!

But there are not many Gurus to initiate a Seeker in to this Meditation Technique! It must be experienced on the seat, with the wind blowing in your face, with the Vibration between your legs felt at 70 MPH in 6th gear with after market exhaust pipes bellowing and ratting off, as you pass thru the neighborhood , watching old Ladies faint and young Gals Screem and High Five!
Life’s a Bitch, but I’m not beliving the Atheists and Materialists here in this dead Church and ever dying! Not yet, any how.

Jim Sutherland

[Jen]

Blogger Brian says: "What I've observed is that fervent believers in supernatural religion and mysticism are considerably more "fanatic" on this blog that secular rationalists are. Probably this is because the worldview of true believers is intimately wrapped up with their sense of self, self-esteem, self-worth, and the like.

Atheists have lives to live. They/we have families, jobs, civic activities, hobbies, friends, and so on that constitute the bulk of their awareness."

Well Brian, you are one of the lucky ones.
.................................

Atheism Has a Suicide Problem

Depression is a serious problem within the greater atheist community and far too often, that depression has led to suicide. This is something many of my fellow atheists often don’t like to admit, but it is true. I know a lot of atheists, myself included, would all like to believe that atheists are happier people than religious believers and in many ways we are. But we also have to accept the reality that in some very important ways we are not.

I wrote about atheism's suicide problem before and got a variety of responses. Some atheists questioned whether the statistics actually showed that a problem exists at all. For the record, it does. I can also tell you anecdotally, that it does. Like I said in that previous article, I have had friends who have died or who very likely have died from suicide. Since that post, I know even more atheists who have taken their own lives. But even if the suicide rate among atheists were exactly the same as among religious believes, that doesn’t mean we shouldn’t work to lower that number. This life is after all the only life we have.

https://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/atheism-has-a-suicide-problem_us_5a2a902ee4b022ec613b812b

[Jen]

Hi Arjuna, you say:

"I will not be commenting on this blog from now as it’s not what I thought it was."

If you are still reading this blog, just wanted to say to you, don't give up hope, believe in yourself, you are a strong being with a powerful spirit.

Don't let the turkeys get you down :)

Jen

[One Initiated]

I have a dear friend,

who frequents to Dera Beas,

who is not initiated at Beas,

who is initiated by some other Master,

who thinks and discuss a lot about GSD and RSSB,

who also criticise HIM and RSSB,
but explains the beauty of RSSB Path if some other non-believer/atheist does the same,

who is a regular reader on this blog (doesn't post though),

who reads various books on spirituality
and has the shelf filled with most of RSSB books as well.

always maintains: I am an atheist

I reply: "yeah yeah, you don't need to repeat it always :)" (with a smile)
"I am not atheist, but I love to hang out with such atheists :)"

And after the laugh we drive and spend continuous hours
at the nearby Gurudwara making it up to 4 AM,
almost always talking all things spirituality.

but I agree and he maintains: "I am an atheist" :)

I also love to hangout with the atheists present on this blog :)

[Dungeness]

So I did. I went out and bought a new Harley Davidsom Heritage Soft Tail Classic Motorcycle, 96 Cu. In. 6 speed Fuel injected Black 800 lb. Beast Chromed every where front to back, and have ridden it 1600 miles the last 3 weeks. I love my new Wheel Chair!

Good for you! Now if it had only been a real bike, say
an Indian Chief. Any vintage.

[Jim Sutherland]

No Dungeness, the Harley is the most sought after Beast on the planet, even in Japan!

Here is mine, exact year and color. But my Pipes are much louder. Which is great to alert the Deer to get out of the way, as thete Te many whete I ride.

https://youtu.be/d8eJLInDWv0

Varoooommmm!!
Jim Sutherland

[Turan]

Manjit. Regarding the concept of no-self or loss of self I can only outline my take on the process :- I have to start with the brain/body organism as it accumulates and 'stores' information from its environment. From this ad hoc information an identity of who I am, a self is formed. The question then arises is this self a real entity or just a mental structure? It appears to be a process, an ever-changing flow of new information being added or replacing old. And, can an information gathering process, an illusory self loose itself or become enlightened - or do anything other that regurgitate past information?

Yes, when describing 'no-self', labels like God or soul may be used as are the terms mystical and enlightened. And quite probably such descriptions are as you say 'linguistic structures'. But as it is used by some Buddhists 'no-self' usually refers to the fact that no entity such as a separate, autonomous 'self' exists. Apparently this doesn't mean to them that the self/ego is to be destroyed, its not possible – except in death. The for-mentioned Buddhists do not entertain metaphysical questions regarding God, soul etc. They maintain that awareness of how the mind/self/thought phenomenon arises is their practice.

We may well have an experience of 'loss of self' where everything is seen as though for the first time – an ecstatic experience where labels dissolve, but just as quickly the self with its information and identity must return – we could not survive without it. I guess from such an experience one may claim to be enlightened. Perhaps it is just a pleasant hint. The real 'revelation' is more likely to gradually become evident through a lifetime of watching how the mind operates, how thinking reacts via its conditioning and how this is often the cause of our confusion and pain – and searching.

[Turan]

Tim. Indeed, your paragraph stating :- “Perhaps a better word is just ‘lightened’ - meaning this/that person has sorted out a lot of the mental/emotional baggage that prevents them from engaging in life mindfully (how about ‘mind- less-reactively?) with clear thinking, compassion, confidence and effective action?”
I like your 'word' and its implications.

[777]

Manjit said :
somebody who is following and advocating a "path" of light and sound

No Manjit > It is SOUND & LIGHT

Light ( John & Seth Shiv Dayal said ) is just one of xillions expressions coming from SOUND

HE IS SOUND

We are in exceptional 7 chakra structure to hitch-hike in that sweet LOVE_SOUND
Next life is not sure!

Try to hear HIM, try to LOVE IT, It s better than orgasms !

Why wouldn't we try
Also death ceases so naturally to exist, as I explained many times

Only one Law : DO NOT HURT
Only One thought : NO DOGMA

Have a good Life

777

[Jesse]

777, sound is vibrational disturbance in air. Or I guess other elements transfer sound too, but we don't get to hear the others so much unless we're swimming.

So is God the one who causes air to vibrate, or is God the air that is vibrating, or what? And if God is sound, then what's so hard about measuring the amount of God in any one place and time? Frequency, amplitude. Is louder and higher pitch more God? Electric guitar solos might be highly concentrated Godness.

[One Initiated]

Wow,
that was such a beautiful comment, 777.
thanks!

Jesse,

If you are joking in your above comment, then it was really a lame joke,
if you are not joking, then you are BIG TIME mistaken !!

In any case, I am responding
which may be useful for you and possibly for some freshmen too.

The sound you are referring above is produced
by the striking of two or more molecules of a matter.
Which requires a medium to travel - thus not audible in a perfect vacuum.

The SOUND in spirituality is known as Anahad Naad
and also Anahat Naad.

Naad means Sound - means something which is audible,
which can be listened to.

Anahad is a Hindi word which is antonym of had
Had means boundary or limit.
Anahad means limitless.
Anahad Naad (or Shabd) means SOUND which is Limitless.

Similarly:
Ahat means strike or produced by striking.
Anahat means not produced by striking - it means eternally vibrating - without any strike.
Anahat Naad means SOUND which is not produced by striking of molecules.
It means which is NOT PRODUCED - It is ALWAYS there in permanence.

The material sound requires you to open your ears.
Anabad Shabd requires you to CLOSE your ears (to avoid the worldly noises). Getting It ?

Try to wake up at 3:00 AM - in the pin drop silence
and you should be able to hear the sweet lovely very high pitched sound.

[D.r]

Jesse, you are the best troll I have seen for ages. Please don't leave soon. I want to talk to you.

[Jesse]

"Try to wake up at 3:00 AM - in the pin drop silence "

What if I lived in India where on almost every inch of the country dogs barking and car horns can be heard screaming 24/7? Would I mistake the car horns for being magical sound that isn't sound? I mean, it's quieter where I live at 5 PM on a main road than remote areas of India at 3AM. Maybe I'll hear sound that isn't sound here at noon while I putz around doing work at home.

Also, I don't like high pitch sounds. I like things in the bass range. Is there an anhad shabd which is a bit lower? Find me the bass guru, please.

To D.r,
My trolling is an art form, and I produce much more work than you know. But you might have a limited view about what a troll is or can be.This is likely because you never had a guru and/or because you're ignorant without having seen the unseen-content. If you think my stirring of the pot is only "trolling" in the sense that I'm getting a rise out of people for the sake of the lulz, you're wrong.

The guru cult of RSSB and all the peripherally connected topics being discussed here about mysticism as something scientific are a global societal disservice, and poking fun at them is one way to reduce the power of the cults and their insanity-inducing magical thinking parading as enlightenment, virtue and science.

[manjit]

Hi Tim: "However, one could view this as not just the end but more like the start…"

Excellent, and I quite agree! I have always thought what is being "sold" as "enlightenment" in "neo-advaita" circles nowdays is really just the very first REAL "initiation", the "introduction to Rigpa" in Dzogchen.......from there, the "real", deeply personal & ineffable, journey really begins......Cheers!

Hi Turan - You write: "I can only outline my take on the process"

What more else can any of us do?! We can do three things; 1) share our own personal "process", or 2) share knowledge from referenced sources, or 3) Speculate based on absolutely nothing but the most superficial of intellectual understand and humongous pride & arrogance? :)

I find myself in general agreement with the rest of your post......cheers!

Hi Dungeness & Jim - that's extremely kind & generous of you both, thanks :) As you probably know, Jim, I like to go absent for long periods of time.....I feel I have overstayed my welcome with the host, and perhaps been too overbearing in discussions.....time for a break anyway, but your comments were very kind :o)

Hi Jen - that is very sad but perhaps no surprise? Personally, I cannot understand why, even if you think "existence is entirely futile" and are happy to see people become "nihilist atheists", that you would think this is a mindset to proselytise others with? Perhaps a misery shared is a misery halved? Beyond that is the staggering arrogance to believe an evolved ape has solved the meaning and mechanics of all reality and consciousness, and found out all this self-evident & astonishing glory "is entirely futile", as if it is some sort of "scientific fact" rather than an intellectual expression of depression? It is sad indeed.

Hi Jesse - I hope you do stick around, myself (and I hope I'm not being selfish here when I say that, as I don't plan to read your "genie-us" output often over the coming months!)......but as you say better out than in, and better your vitriol and trolling in virtual space than real, as you said! :)

You write: "My trolling is an art form......... If you think my stirring of the pot is only "trolling" in the sense that I'm getting a rise out of people for the sake of the lulz, you're wrong.
The guru cult of RSSB and all the peripherally connected topics being discussed here about mysticism as something scientific are a global societal disservice, and poking fun at them is one way to reduce the power of the cults and their insanity-inducing magical thinking parading as enlightenment, virtue and science."

It's interesting that despite clearly having no personal knowledge, experience or insight into this subject, that you feel qualified to not only comment, but to provide some sort of "global societal" service with your patently & unarguably juvenile, vacuous and substance-less "contempt" masked as insight & commentary upon it?

I just find that odd myself, but each to their own "lives" and entertainment.........I suspect this comment of Brian's written in a Freudian frenzy of projection & transference, just about covers it mind?: "Probably this is because the worldview of true believers is intimately wrapped up with their sense of self, self-esteem, self-worth, and the like.""

Finally, I did just want to add.....I think you are a wonderful & delightful addition to this blog......there is so much dishonesty to both oneself and others in public online forums, that this is pissing in the wind - but I really do think that. I think even though these virtual spaces are really important places to be critical of RS gurus & doctrines, for the growth of various people at different stages and path-choices of their life......but really, deep down, I love all my fellow "seekers" of all types, paths and gurus, sceptics and atheists alike too.....as long as they're honest & sincere, open-minded and not dogmatic, judgemental, "contemptuous" etc.....and I think a fair few of them have been unfairly put through criticisms and questions (by me I'm talking about, as much as others)....even if it is their fault for coming here and not going satsang instead :)

Anyway, so it's good for them to have a foil, a critic of RS who exemplifies and advertises a certain "Hell Yeah" type of being, spewing irrelevant & vacuous ad hominem vitriol and pretending to himself it is some sort of wise & wonderful teaching about reality and truth only you seem able to provide.

Perfect my tutelary diety fried, just purrrffffect ;)

Peace &, errrrm, "Existence is futile"bless you? Doesn't quite have the same ring does it.......

Manjit

[manjit]

Before I do, certainly this time (I promise :) log off for a few months, as this blog post is about "enlightenment" (and is addressing a comment of mine), I thought I would take the liberty of reposting this comment of mine from the wonderfully cheerful "Existence is entirely futile thread" in case it was missed by some. I think these experiences reveal a great deal about the human life experience, whatever the ultimate explanation for these NDEs maybe. These are important quotes, I feel, even if they are only revelations about our "mundane psychology"......note the profound similarities and patterns across numerous different "experiencers". I think these are good life lessons, and ideas to keep in mind, as they seem quite valid and insightful to me, if they were "dead" or not:

Whether "near death experiences" (and other related visionary states) are literally true and accurate experiences of a potential "after-death" state (I suspect not, personally.... I agree with the statement John Haldane, the geneticist and evolutionary biologist, once made: "Now my own suspicion is that the Universe is not only queerer than we suppose, but queerer than we can suppose." A lesson for all here, I suspect....), it goes without saying they are, without a shadow of a doubt, highly significant & meaningful human experiences with tremendous psychological import.

I think gives us a peek into the nature of the human consciousness and experience, even if only metaphorically so:

"Hell is a psychological condition which represents the hellish inner thoughts and desires within some souls. In hell, souls become uninhibited and their hellish condition is fully manifested. No demons are there to inflict punishment. Each soul acts out their own anger and hatred by warring and tormenting others." (Emanuel Swedenborg)

"There is no geographic hell. We build our hells right here in our own lives." (Harry Hone)

"Hell is a spiritual condition we create by being away from God until we choose to return to God. Hell is a spiritual condition that is totally devoid of love." (Sandra Rogers)

"Hell is the pain, anguish, hurt and anger that you have caused others or who suffered as a result of your actions/words to others. Hell is what you have created for yourself within your soul by turning your back on unconditional love, compassion and peace." (Tina)

"What people call hell is really a spiritual time-out condition in which souls reflect and work out the things that blocked them from the power of their own light." (P.M.H. Atwater)

""After death people gravitate into homogeneous groups according to the rate of their soul's vibrations much like throwing a small pebble into a threshing machine. It goes into the box that fits its proper size and weight. After death, we are sorted by the high or low vibrations of our soul. Everyone goes where they fit in! High vibrations indicate love and spiritual development, while low vibrations indicate debasement and evil. All one has to do is to love so unselfishly that their soul-vibrations rise high enough to fit into heaven." (Arthur Yensen)

"People who have an orientation of hate, for instance, find themselves unable to appreciate a realm of love and harmony. Therefore, they continue in their state of bitterness and are 'closed' to the glory which exists around them." (Margaret Tweddell)

" "Environments distant from God are said to be dark, cold and inhospitable. Indeed, they reflect the spirits of those dwelling there." (Nora Spurgin)

"We create our own hell within us while we live on earth. After death, we step into this hell." (Kevin Williams)"

""Those with too many negative thought patterns might flee the light of God after death because they are too ashamed or too afraid to have their inner thoughts and negative natures revealed to everyone." (Dr. George Ritchie)

""Just knowing the bad mistakes you made through your carelessness or your selfishness is a hell. You don't need a devil prodding you with a fork." (Margaret Tweddell)

"God does not condemn anyone to hell and there is no eternal damnation. We have the ability to condemn ourselves to the hell we create within ourselves." (Kevin Williams)

"While Benedict was in hell, he called out to the light and the light opened up and formed a tunnel that insulated him from all that fear and pain." (Mellen-Thomas Benedict)

"The way out of these hellish realms is to have a willingness to see the light and seek love for others and God." (Angie Fenimore)

"To escape the darkness, you must cry out to God. Then the light will appear." (Rev. Howard Storm)

"Since I had lived such a totally self-serving existence, I was in a hellish state of indescribable agony and sorrow. I was in shear agony. I still remember being on my knees while this blinding light broke and crushed my false-ego. This breaking process was extremely painful." (Daniel Rosenblit)

https://www.near-death.com/science/research/hell.html

“My experience showed me that there are characteristics common to all the beings of hell: they possess a thoroughgoing materialism, combined with nihilism to varying degrees, and attitudes of hatred, disdain, and utter lack of concern or caring for other beings.”
— NDEr Samuel Bercholz, A Guided Tour of Hell: A Graphic Memoir

" I did not see Satan or evil. My descent into hell was a descent into each person’s customized human misery, ignorance, and darkness of not-knowing. It seemed like a miserable eternity. But each of the millions of souls around me had a little star of light always available. But no one seemed to pay attention to it. They were so consumed with their own grief, trauma and misery. But, after what seemed an eternity, I started calling out to that light, like a child calling to a parent for help. Then the light opened up and formed a tunnel that came right to me an insulated me from all that fear and pain. That is what hell really is.”
— NDEr Mellen-Thomas Benedict

"At my right, a few feet away, stood something that resembled a demon. It was not your average demon, but one made of cardboard. It looked absolutely ridiculous! I knew that whatever I was seeing was not real in the sense of being an individual consciousness. It was a product of my own mind. One part of me wanted to laugh at it; another part of me however wanted to scream in terror. I had never imagined a demon made of cardboard before, but it indeed had a terrifying effect on me. ‘So, you thought it was that easy, huh?’ the demon snarled, as it came bouncing towards me. ‘Oh, I know what this is,’ I thought. This is my fear manifested: This is my own loathing. This is my lack of appreciation for life and the people in it. This is a learned experience as I walked through life, becoming more and more engulfed in despair. The demon is showing me how I treat myself and others when I am affected by the feeling of fear. This is exactly the tone of voice that belongs to me, when I am being mean towards myself and others. Here it is, manifested as my own personal version of hell…”
— NDEr Malla

"“I began to hear noise and what I heard was extremely distressing and eventually unbearable. As the noise grew in intensity, I realized it was voices, the countless voices of many, many souls, saying nothing, only weeping and wailing. It was the most anguished, pathetic sound I had ever heard. With every passing moment it grew until I imagined their numbers were in the millions. It was unbearable. I had to get out of this place. But how? I had no body and no voice. Finally, somewhere deep down in my spirit I screamed as hard as I could. I heard my own voice echoing on and on, ‘GOD, HELP ME!!!’ The next thing that happened was a gigantic hand came down and moved under me and lifted me out of that abyss. I was then taken up and up. The anguished voices faded and all was quiet…”
— NDEr Cathleen C

“As I experienced this horror, I began to have the strong awareness that my life had been very materialistic. Everything had been about me. When I met someone, I always asked myself “what can I get from this person?”.

“The truth dawned on me in Hell that my life on Earth was devoid of love. I was not practicing compassion or forgiveness towards myself or others. I had a tendency to be especially harsh towards people that I perceived to be lower than me in social or professional status or hierarchies. I remember feeling deeply sorry for the lack of kindness in my behavior and wishing I had done things differently.”
— NDEr Dr. Rajiv Parti

“The way out of these hellish realms is to have a willingness to see the light and seek love for others and God.”
— NDEr Angie Fenimore

"“Lamenting my situation, and aching for another chance at life, it dawns on me that the void is a place of my own making. A representation of my apathy; a symbol of the wall I’d spent a lifetime building. Its bricks were ones I’d stacked to keep people out and my feelings in. A barrier of my own construction, built brick-upon-brick with each hurt I’d suffered. My efforts to protect myself had made me less…less real, less vulnerable, less joyful, as impenetrable as the coma I lay in. My physical self in the ICU had no idea how close she was to losing it all.

“When I finally realized the void was a prison of my own design, it split open with a thunderous BOOM! A bright light shone before me. The darkness was still there, but now it was behind and beneath me, being pushed back and down by the brilliant light. I was being pulled, drawn, as if by a powerful magnet, into the arms of a glorious spirit. Am I finally being rescued from this terrible place? Oh, let it be so!”
— IANDS Experiencer

http://the-formula.org/ndes-hell/

"“After a long time, my eyes began to burn so badly, I finally decided that it was worth it to put up with the bad flashes if I could just close my eyes for a while. I began to sob quietly as the flashes of my evil ways rushed in, and I heard a voice. It said, ‘If you ask him, maybe he will save you.'”
Jeffrey asked again and again for salvation.
He was brought before a spiritual being who asked what brought him there. Jeffrey replied that the world is not fair and he didn’t want to be a part of it anymore.
He realized his life has meaning.
The being explained that Jeffrey had begged to be born into the material world. He had even chosen when and to whom he would be born.
He explained also that Jeffrey had been saved when he asked for it, because he still had a spark of belief.
“My belief means way more than I had ever realized. He saw something in me that even I did not see. I began to weep so badly that I was frozen there on the floor with my head in my hands and crying uncontrollably,” Jeffrey said"

https://www.theepochtimes.com/uplift/in-near-death-experience-man-sees-hell-where-he-feels-all-the-bad-things-he-did-to-others_2369214.html

Etc etc etc.

We should be careful of our beliefs, lest we end up in a nihilistic, materialistic "existence is entirely futile" mental hell-hole created by our own selves, one that somehow astonishingly manages to miss the magnificent, awe-inspiring, exhilirating & BEYOND "magical" & mysterious consciousness and reality we have had the incomparable fortune to witness.....

Posted by: manjit | July 22, 2018 at 03:53 AM

[Jesse]

"patently & unarguably juvenile, vacuous and substance-less "contempt" masked as insight & commentary"

Someone who whines about tone and vitriol as much as you should probably not write such things, Manjit. As I said before in other words, you're afraid of the mirror.

[Jesse]

"a nihilistic, materialistic "existence is entirely futile" mental hell-hole created by our own selves"

Things insecure people say when they can't accept that others simply don't care about their mystic ego cult or think it's necessary to believe in to be happy.

[Jesse]

777, I understand that angreji isn't your first language, but I don't think you'd express a coherent thought in any language.

If you're the result of enlightenment, I pray to god and buddha that I never achieve that state.

[Tim Rimmer]

Hey Manjit

Don’t disappear for too long - I very much enjoy reading your posts (and while it (the reading) may take some time :-)) you have a real knack for detailing and discussing a lot of this stuff in a style that I appreciate. Thanks also for the many links you include - was great to read more on Giordano Bruno (talk about his statue being the archetypal magus!) and also the really interesting writings of Bernadette Roberts. All the best mate.

[One Initiated]

Jesse:
"almost every inch of the country dogs barking "

It means you're never awake at 3 AM for your meditation,
had you ever, you should have known at 3 AM all dogs activities ceases.
You are most likely sleeping and unaware of streets,
or you are busy fucking and sounding like a dog barks ?

Well, I do appreciate the advanced living standard of US and Europe;
Congrats for where you are, I hope you could have made better use of it.
Living in India, even if you are financially well to do, is an everyday struggle.
But a LOT better in terms of the nearness to the Master.
And Beas visits are out of this world - even far better than visiting US.

But I don't think it's fair and anyone needs
to be so egoistic to be in US and disgrace India.
If one is living in good conditions, one should really thank HIM
for granting such a peaceful life.

"I pray to god and buddha that I never achieve that state"
ha ha - that was laughable, Jesse.

I pray to God to fix your crooked mind before the setting of the Sun.

[Jesse]

One, i said the place is loud, which is true. I've walked the streets of West Delhi many times at 3 AM and the dogs were pretty loud then at times, and in some places, there was still traffic late at night. Not sure how that "disgraced" your country. It's just a simple observation.

It also has nothing to do with god. It has to do with human ability and work. But that's a topic for another website.

I've also been to Beas. The city itself is a corrupt hellhole but nobody cares about that. It's the RS Dera that people are referring to when they mention Beas, and I think the Dera is really a stifling place for western satsangis, to be honest. It's regimented just enough to be annoying but not enough to feel like you're benefitting from the discipline that a monastery might offer.

Maybe they should go back to Shiv Dayal's path and invite sadhus to make the place more interesting instead of the cheap tourist destination it is now.

I'd give the Dera a 4/10 but that's only cause there's free food and no car horns.

[Bob]

Jesse do you also like any sports you engage to

[Jesse]

Bob,

I play basketball sometimes and I used to skateboard. I'm extremely old now, late 30's, and sports with a lot of impact are too hard on my body. But if I'm not active then I'm just chilling which is hard on the body in another way.

Don't know what to do.

Being in the zone during physical competition is likely the closest to enlightenment anyone has ever gotten.

Jesse

[jentil]

Dear Manjit,

You understand a lot.
I gonna miss you.
s*

[A Facebook User]

I am enlightened every time I discover/realize something I did not already know or was mistaken about. Sometimes I realize something about the human condition or my own biases, prejudices, hangups, etc., that brings the clarity of enlightenment. I suppose it's possible to realize, ultimately, what it means to be human and I can see how that realization might render one harmless, incapable of evil, but I doubt that I could discern who, if anyone, has undergone that transformation, so I think it's evil to speak of Enlightenment if it isn't Enlightenment speaking, and I'm pretty certain that Enlightenment wouldn't be as verbose and tiresome as those who go on and on about it tend to be.

[zthiiell]

I am enlightened after reading this, after thinking i was enlightened, although i knew i wasn't. Now this is my personal enlightenment to know that there is no enlightenment...so therefore i am enlightened and unenlightened simultaneously...so i am as mad as was previous...

[Sonia]

zthiell,

LOL 😂

Where do you ppl find these old posts!!

If it weren’t for the recent comments section, I would never see them.