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July 03, 2018

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@ Spence,...Interesting! I’ll bet you would be a Celebrity as a Speaker, in the “ Jews For Jesus” Organization? I have encountered many Jewish Christian Converts in my time. One of the most Charasmatic was Dr. Morris Cerullo. He had more stories than Swamiji. He was the Preacher’s Preacher in the 80s and 90, all over the West Coast. I became a Member of Melodyland Christian Center in Anaheim, CA. when I moved there in 1979. Dr. Ralph Wilkerson was the Pastor, and he had Dr. Morris Cerrulo there for a Crusade as soon as I got there. He would keep trying to get people to “ See that mighty liquid Fire”......that he said he was always seeing. He was headquarted in the Cortez Hotel in San Diego that his Organization owned, which I had been supporting for years. Had you ever heard of him when you lived in California?

I later first became Licensed to Preach by the So. Ca. Assemblies of God in California, and started a little Church in Laguna Beach in the early 80s. I rented the Woman’s Club Building on Sundays, and had two Services each Sunday. I paid all the expenses out of my own pocket, and almost went broke! My Day job wasn’t covering it as the Congregation grew. Laguna is the 2nd largest Gay Community in CA. Next to San Francisco. I have lotsa stories, but they are archived for another life! But let me tell you, I really learned to Trust God during that time in my life. My Wife was not in the Ministry with me, and was opposed to me doing it. She said she never married a Minister, and didn’t intend to stay with one, either. So I had to choose, and I chose her. But then, God really had other Plans for me. Rosicrucians, Martinistism, then Sant Mat. But I have always retained the best parts of all of them, and discarded what never appealed to me. I HATE all Fundamentaism. It chokes real Mystics. Ex-Sats that are choked , but are still believers in the Philosophy should do as Charan taught us to do. “ Just do the best you can, Brother, and leave the rest to The Lord. , That has always worked for me, and is why my Flame still shines at my Third Eye.😇😍

@Arguna,....” Just do the best you can, and leave the rest to The Lord.”

Cheers,
Jim

@ Jim - I will do.

Perhaps see you inside - you will know what I look like that I know 😀

Arjuna

Perhaps better send him a photograph . . . . nice RDV

but it works with attachments over there

but Masters are the Masters of exceptions

777

Brian

@ normal conversation
I wouldn't ask

but a kind of "Tara's Book of Accusations"
and nobody knows a tara
any Judge, any teacher, any real interested will ask for time_stamps

777

Jim
Why You constantly ask for David Lane

Why ?

77

Hi 777

Yes I noticed that also.
David is just a guy, and his opinion carries no more weight than anyone else 's. Jim, why do you give it such significance?

Are you actually giving him power over your own sentiments?

After all, selecting a system of belief is a personal matter, an individual choice and we are all free to choose as we like. That's actually what makes spirituality in any form, including Atheism, sacred. It's entirely our choice and only has meaning when it is.

Part of Tara's plight is that she was pressed into it by being born into a Satsangi family whom she loves, and just has no real interest or drive to pursue it. But when pressured to do what you don't like the mind reacts and you see the wild and unsupported accusations that result.

Brian also demonstrates a like reactivity. He is free but somehow acts as if he isn't. His resentment stems from that, from a sense of imposition, the impressions of an older servitude.

We can pick up the guitar and put it down, and when interest takes hold again, pick it up again.

That's the whole idea.

Spencer, you really are a judgmental guy with little understanding of other people. Earth to Spencer, via Brian: I am not resentful. I am not suffering from impressions "of an older servitude." You don't know me, aside from my blog posts, which obviously don't capture either the entirety of me, or the most important parts of me.

So you're not prone to reactivity, which you accuse me of? Your comments aren't reactions to what I and others say? You certainly come across as reactive. Also, hypocritical.

You say in your comment above that everyone is free to choose as we like. I choose atheism. It pleases me. I'm happier now that I've given up the falsehoods of religion. Yet for some reason you appear to be obsessed with criticizing my choice.

Um, you can read the name of this blog, can't you? It's been the same name since 2004: Church of the Churchless. That's how long I've considered myself irreligious. You still are, which is fine. Each to his own. Just keep in mind that you're choosing to comment on a churchless blog, which is run by a churchless blogger, me.

Often you seem surprised, I'd say, reactive, that I'm expressing non-religious beliefs on this here Church of the Churchless. Would you be surprised to visit a Harley-Davidson web site and find that visitors there enjoy riding motorcycles? Would you dedicate yourself to criticizing them for liking to ride motorcycles?

I ask, because you have been so dedicated to criticizing me for having the sort of worldview that I do. I'm flattered, really, since I like attention. But it perplexes me, since obviously nothing you can say is going to change my views toward spirituality, philosophy, the meaning of life, etc.

Possibly the meaning of death then at least!

By the way by reading the post:
"Devastating criticism of Gurinder Singh Dhillon by a RSSB insider"
I wonder, who got devastated ?

RSSB believers, non-believers or RSSB itself ?
I think no one and it again proved bad title ;)

Manjit, did you meet Thor on Jupiter ?
Please pass him my hello in case if you did ;)

Hi Brian

Hm. I think it's fair to say that our impression of each other might not square with our own impression of ourselves.

You're an Atheist. I admire Atheism. But your posts aren't about Atheism. They are about Sant Mat, and not terribly flattering.

Church of the Churchless. What is this site really supposed to be about?

Let's take a stroll to your link

"If you are spiritual but not religious,
If you don't belong to an organized faith but sometimes wish you did,
Or if you do belong but sometimes wish you didn't,
Welcome to the Church of the Churchless."

Let's see... Yes I consider myself spiritual...

How about you?

Let's continue...

"If you are tired of dogma that divides rather than unites,..."

Yes I'm tired of views that are divisive, and I like perspectives that are inclusive...

Would you say your Tara Tomb meets this criteria?

Next up...
That demands blind faith rather than open-eyed investigation,
That proclaims "You'll see when you believe"
Instead of "You'll believe when you see,"
Welcome to the Church of the Churchless."

Well I saw and heard long before I knew anything about my current meditation path. Proof was first, and the explanations and method for more proof came later.... Hm, that also meets the criteria.

But maybe you've changed your views?


Let me guess.... New Church of the Churchless criteria...

"If you carry a significant grudge against any formal organization of spirituality, but especially Sant Mat... Welcome!

" If you would rather make negative character accusations of others than share your own journey, experiments and wisdom in pursuit of happiness....Welcome!

" If you like to dish out distrust and hate for members of any religion but hate to be confronted with actual facts or feedback... Welcome home!

" If you are nursing long standing resentments that you can't let go, while insisting you have, but prefer those resentments to respect for other beliefs and inclusion.... Welcome...

Either way Brian, whether I accept the original charter for this church and my own sentiments which follow it, or your darker accusations of me band the newer charter above, it's a fit...

For me, yes, and for you.

Just pick which version is you today.

I'm good with either.

"

One Initiated, if you read Tara's comments, you'd realize it was RSSB that got devastated. In case you didn't read all of the comments, here's a few highlights:

(1) Gurinder Singh has been spending much of his time getting hugely rich, with some good reasons to believe that there's been some mingling of RSSB Trust funds and the guru's for-profit investments.

(2) The charitable activities of RSSB have been drastically cut back, maybe because the guru is so busy running for-profit companies.

(3) Gurinder Singh didn't know that he had been anointed the next guru until he got a phone call about this, which goes to show that the guru isn't omniscient, as many devotees believe.

(4) There's no longer an atmosphere of love at the Dera (RSSB headquarters), given the guru's emphasis on secrecy, keeping visitors in line, and sevadars who like to throw their weight around.

(5) RSSB higher-ups are running the companies that enrich the guru and his family, thereby making a mockery of the previous Sant Mat teaching that spiritual uplift should be the main goal of initiates, not becoming hugely rich.

Brian,

I am not sure why - but so many comments of mine are not getting posted,
Is there some filter / rules which protects posting of some comments ?

Guru jo chahe so karda hai,
Guru khali bhande bharda hai,
Guru bhare nu vi khali karda hain,
Guru jo chahe so karda hain.

meaning:
Master does as he wish,
HE fills the empty vessels,
HE empties the filled ones,
Master does as he wish.


Brian,

Either I don't know the meaning of devastation,
OR you will require to visit Dera Beas / India to realise the truth.

RSSB Dera is incredibly the best and the most soothing place on earth,
I am in big contrast to Jim here,
who has posted too negatively the experience.
Tell me this:
If it's well mentioned that Mobile Phones are not allowed to enter the Dera,
So that the decorum of the Dera cab be maintained,
and everyone has to deposit the phones at the entry,
and Jim is calling it as Confiscation of Mobile phones - does that sound fair ?

And then, for any urgent calling or any communication, the landlines are
available inside the Dera, with accessibility of prepaid coupons,
and then Jim labelled it as scam - wow really ? was that a sincere use of language ?
I mean, Dera is doing to make a fine balance in keeping the atmosphere healthy
and pollution free - and organazing small things like prepaid landline phones
and then we call them scams. - that's surely amazing, isn't it.

On one hand Jim has exaggerated the talks of the QnA and the 69 Joke,
and on the other hand, when in Satsang the Ladies and Gents were shown
the segregated enclosures to have a sitting,
Jim termed them as they were enforced to sit separated for 2-3 hours - wow ?
I know what you should term this expression as.

I don't think that you'd perfectly agree on these points with Jim,
but you've not posted any replies on these remarks posted by Jim either,
I am also mentioning it for the first time.


The Master doesn't need the disciples' permissions
to do the arrangements HE need to do for the betterment
of the universe.

It's already been mentioned on this blog several times.

And if we go by documented history:
You know the scenes of 1947 and 1983 in India,
you will get to know how Dera Beas was used to provide
shelter to everyone - nobody was asked if he was initiate or follower.

All these comments from Tara,
are mainly just an indication that she lacks the faith on the Master
most likely because of her own incompetence in the meditation
and not being able to develop and receive HIS love inside her heart.

It's relatively far easier to be close to Master in physical presence,
and in the same proportion it's difficult to be with HIM inside.

Tara, being called as insider - precisely just a bystander,
She is just as any other one who is there in Beas,
and being close to the Master for maybe any reason (due to the ancestral legacy I think),
whether or not having love and faith for the Master,
and criticising the worldly operations and labelling them as anti-spiritual.


Before even criticising, one has to ask what's their own stand is ?
Did she ever meet the Master inside ?
Has she reached the Par-Brahm ?
And if it's all NO - then her comments doesn't have that gravity.

So Brian, this point is also relating to you correctly, as good as Tara,
You have been in close physical proximity to both Babaji and also HazurJi,
You did have a good connection with Hazur,
but did you ever accomplish the task of meeting HIM inside - Surely No.
So you never achieved your own target - and started blaming the whole RSSB as corrupt.

You call yourself and Tara's experiences as true.
And do you really believe the individuals like 777 and Spencer are all fake ?
And their experiences doesn't count - they are in illusions ?
I don't think it's valid to call others vivid and real and tested and daily experiences as illusions.
Passing judgements on others experiences is totally wrong and hurting.
Your incompetency in getting there - mainly because of your ego - and you have turned
your failure as a missile towards the whole RSSB.

I feel it's huge exaggeration in every point raised by Tara.

The 5 points you mentioned above:


(1) Gurinder Singh has been spending much of his time getting hugely rich, with some good reasons to believe that there's been some mingling of RSSB Trust funds and the guru's for-profit investments.
And HE before making arrangements to save the life of millions (by using the worldly money)
Tara should have permitted that ?

(2) The charitable activities of RSSB have been drastically cut back, maybe because the guru is so busy running for-profit companies.

WHOA - That's the biggest false of the century.
Brian, I can surely tell you that this is utmost wrong
and is just actually a propaganda created by the critiques.
You've to come to India to realise that.
I don't want to mention them all,
but there have been numerous charitable projects that have had been successfully
carried out under the guidance of our current Master Baba Gurinder Singh Ji.
Most of these operations are not even covered by the media - as they are not allowed to.
No marketing is carried out in Santmat.
Only a very few of them appears in media and that's still are at a scale of national help.
I personally know a few members of the group who have given their Sewa in various such events.
If you want I can send you the details over email - but I'd request you to keep them private,
You can even check those personally if you wish to.

This is totally an attempt to tarnish the image,
however, irrespective of that attempts, RSSB keeps on providing the help in their capacity,
and keep working good for humanity wherever possible.
I hope you've seen the video Legacy of Love which covers some bits on this topic.


(3) Gurinder Singh didn't know that he had been anointed the next guru until he got a phone call about this, which goes to show that the guru isn't omniscient, as many devotees believe.

HE didn't give initiation for few years after being positioned as the successor.
You may want to read "Adventure of Faith" which covers this in a beautiful manner.


(4) There's no longer an atmosphere of love at the Dera (RSSB headquarters), given the guru's emphasis on secrecy, keeping visitors in line, and sevadars who like to throw their weight around.

Big big false, only valid for the super egoistical persons.
Again, you are believing on what Tara had to say - and you surely believe her - because you resonate with her ?
I am saying an exact opposite thing - why wouldn't you believe me ?
Best is to go and check yourself rather than promoting someone else's experiences as if they all happened to you.

Every particle at Dera Beas resontes with Love,
but who can realise it - who has that receiving ends in them.
If they are all covered in the Ego - nothing is going to be observed.

Think of a person, who is a Class A Officer,
and demanding same worldly level of comfort and special treatment everywhere,
what can the Guru do to have him feel the Love, the person has to first let go of his ego.
a person with that kind of mindset will never going to feel the Love at Dera,
not matter if he visits today, or if he visits at the times of Sawan Singh Ji Maharaj.
There are many recorded incidences of the similar sort.


(5) RSSB higher-ups are running the companies that enrich the guru and his family, thereby making a mockery of the previous Sant Mat teaching that spiritual uplift should be the main goal of initiates, not becoming hugely rich.

I think it's been mentioned so many times here.
First is that all the events of money earning are legit
and in accord with the govt. - this all started way way back in time
when the Ranbaxy as a very small unit started building a very low cost vaccination.
(Really, a blessing for the world - only the twisted minds call it otherwise.)
This is the resultant of all the decades long efforts.
All the funds are going to be used for humanity.
Nothings going to be wasted or misused.


Enlargement of the Dera premise is required to accommodate
the growing Sangat, we don't need to relate that to land acquisitions.

Ever since HE came on the gaddi,
HE is just always working towards more and more facilities for the sangat.

Earlier the hostels were only for the NRIs and for the Foreigners
and now since more hostels are constructed, they are available for every single one.
Anyone applying timely for hostels, do get that and can have very comfortable stay.

HE has actually worked tremendously in bringing equality to everyone.
If the materialistic world celebs can create nuisances in Sangat,
Isn't It better for the decorum of the Satsang, to provide them separate space.
That's not providing them extra Spiritual Wealth - that's equal for everyone,
depending on how sincerely one is spending time and breaths in meditation.

Breaths are so priceless,
whichever thing/practice they are spent on, that gets improved with time.
If we spend our breaths on meditation and love - it will improve with time.
If we spend on hatred - that will also improve with time.
that's the beauty of breaths.
It's we need to decide what we want to improve upon.
If we are just spending all our breaths always on criticising the Masters,
we will improve in that art

Of course, it's your wish what and how to publish,
But, honestly, unlike your other posts,
to me this republishing of the blog post comments was not at all appealing.

Guru jo chahe so karda hai,
Guru khali bhande bharda hai,
Guru bhare nu vi khali karda hain,
Guru jo chahe so karda hain.

meaning:
Master does as he wish,
HE fills the empty vessels,
HE empties the filled ones,
Master does as he wish.


Brian,

Either I don't know the meaning of devastation,
OR you will require to visit Dera Beas / India to realise the truth,
on how it's devastated or flourished under the Master's guidance.

RSSB Dera is incredibly the best and the most soothing place on earth,
I am in big contrast to Jim here,
who has posted too negatively the experience.
Tell me this:
If it's well mentioned that Mobile Phones are not allowed to enter the Dera,
So that the decorum of the Dera cab be maintained,
and everyone has to deposit the phones at the entry,
and Jim is calling it as Confiscation of Mobile phones - does that sound fair ?

And then, for any urgent calling or any communication, the landlines are
available inside the Dera, with accessibility of prepaid coupons,
and then Jim labelled it as scam - wow really ? was that a sincere use of language ?
I mean, Dera is doing to make a fine balance in keeping the atmosphere healthy
and pollution free - and organazing small things like prepaid landline phones
and then we call them scams. - that's surely amazing, isn't it.

On one hand Jim has exaggerated the talks of the QnA and the 69 Joke,
and on the other hand, when in Satsang the Ladies and Gents were shown
the segregated enclosures to have a sitting,
Jim termed them as they were enforced to sit separated for 2-3 hours - wow ?
I know what you should term this expression as.

I don't think that you'd perfectly agree on these points with Jim,
but you've not posted any replies on these remarks posted by Jim either,
I am also mentioning it for the first time.


The Master doesn't need the disciples' permissions
to do the arrangements HE need to do for the betterment
of the universe.

It's already been mentioned on this blog several times.

And if we go by documented history:
You know the scenes of 1947 and 1983 in India,
you will get to know how Dera Beas was used to provide
shelter to everyone - nobody was asked if he was initiate or follower.

All these comments from Tara,
are mainly just an indication that she lacks the faith on the Master
most likely because of her own incompetence in the meditation
and not being able to develop and receive HIS love inside her heart.

It's relatively far easier to be close to Master in physical presence,
and in the same proportion it's difficult to be with HIM inside.

Tara, being called as insider - precisely just a bystander,
She is just as any other one who is there in Beas,
and being close to the Master for maybe any reason (due to the ancestral legacy I think),
whether or not having love and faith for the Master,
and criticising the worldly operations and labelling them as anti-spiritual.


Before even criticising, one has to ask what's their own stand is ?
Did she ever meet the Master inside ?
Has she reached the Par-Brahm ?
And if it's all NO - then her comments doesn't have that gravity.

So Brian, this point is also relating to you correctly, as good as Tara,
You have been in close physical proximity to both Babaji and also HazurJi,
You did have a good connection with Hazur,
but did you ever accomplish the task of meeting HIM inside - Surely No.
So you never achieved your own target - and started blaming the whole RSSB as corrupt.

You call yourself and Tara's experiences as true.
And do you really believe the individuals like 777 and Spencer are all fake ?
And their experiences doesn't count - they are in illusions ?
I don't think it's valid to call others vivid and real and tested and daily experiences as illusions.
Passing judgements on others experiences is totally wrong and hurting.
Your incompetency in getting there - mainly because of your ego - and you have turned
your failure as a missile towards the whole RSSB.

I feel it's huge exaggeration in every point raised by Tara.

The 5 points you mentioned above:


(1) Gurinder Singh has been spending much of his time getting hugely rich, with some good reasons to believe that there's been some mingling of RSSB Trust funds and the guru's for-profit investments.

And HE before making arrangements to save the life of millions (by using the worldly money)
Tara should have permitted that ?

(2) The charitable activities of RSSB have been drastically cut back, maybe because the guru is so busy running for-profit companies.

WHOA - That's the biggest false of the century.
Brian, I can surely tell you that this is utmost wrong
and is just actually a propaganda created by the critiques.
You've to come to India to realise that.
I don't want to mention them all,
but there have been numerous charitable projects that have had been successfully
carried out under the guidance of our current Master Baba Gurinder Singh Ji.
Most of these operations are not even covered by the media - as they are not allowed to.
No marketing is carried out in Santmat.
Only a very few of them appears in media and that's still are at a scale of national help.
I personally know a few members of the group who have given their Sewa in various such events.
If you want I can send you the details over email - but I'd request you to keep them private,
You can even check those personally if you wish to.

This is totally an attempt to tarnish the image,
however, irrespective of that attempts, RSSB keeps on providing the help in their capacity,
and keep working good for humanity wherever possible.
I hope you've seen the video Legacy of Love which covers some bits on this topic.


(3) Gurinder Singh didn't know that he had been anointed the next guru until he got a phone call about this, which goes to show that the guru isn't omniscient, as many devotees believe.

HE didn't give initiation for few years after being positioned as the successor.
You may want to read "Adventure of Faith" which covers this in a beautiful manner.


(4) There's no longer an atmosphere of love at the Dera (RSSB headquarters), given the guru's emphasis on secrecy, keeping visitors in line, and sevadars who like to throw their weight around.

Big big false, only valid for the super egoistical persons.
Again, you are believing on what Tara had to say - and you surely believe her - because you resonate with her ?
I am saying an exact opposite thing - why wouldn't you believe me ?
Best is to go and check yourself rather than promoting someone else's experiences as if they all happened to you.

Every particle at Dera Beas resontes with Love,
but who can realise it - who has that receiving ends in them.
If they are all covered in the Ego - nothing is going to be observed.

Think of a person, who is a Class A Officer,
and demanding same worldly level of comfort and special treatment everywhere,
what can the Guru do to have him feel the Love, the person has to first let go of his ego.
a person with that kind of mindset will never going to feel the Love at Dera,
not matter if he visits today, or if he visits at the times of Sawan Singh Ji Maharaj.
There are many recorded incidences of the similar sort.


(5) RSSB higher-ups are running the companies that enrich the guru and his family, thereby making a mockery of the previous Sant Mat teaching that spiritual uplift should be the main goal of initiates, not becoming hugely rich.

I think it's been mentioned so many times here.
First is that all the events of money earning are legit
and in accord with the govt. - this all started way way back in time
when the Ranbaxy as a very small unit started building a very low cost vaccination.
( and that's a blessing for the world )
This is the resultant of all the decades long efforts.
All the funds are going to be used for humanity.
Nothings going to be wasted or misused.

Ever since HE came on the gaddi,
HE is just always working towards more and more facilities for the Sangat.

Earlier the hostels were only for the NRIs and for the Foreigners
and now since more hostels are constructed, they are available for every single one.
Anyone applying timely for hostels, do get that and can have very comfortable stay.

HE has actually worked tremendously in bringing equality to everyone.
If the materialistic world celebs can create nuisances in Sangat,
Isn't It better for the decorum of the Satsang, to provide them separate space.
That's not providing them extra Spiritual Wealth - that's equal for everyone,
depending on how sincerely one is spending time and breaths in meditation.

Breaths are so priceless,
whichever thing/practice they are spent on, that gets improved with time.
If we spend our breaths on meditation and love - it will improve with time.
If we spend on hatred - that will also improve with time.
that's the beauty of breaths.
It's we need to decide what we want to improve upon.
If we are just spending all our breaths always on criticising the Masters,
we will improve in that art

Of course, it's your wish what and how to publish,
But, honestly, unlike your other posts,
to me this republishing of the blog post comments was not at all appealing.

It looks like your blog's spam filters are holding back the long text comments under moderation.
If that is the case, you might see many of them from me, could you please approve latest which is the direct response to the points you mentioned above and discard all the others from me.

Thank You.

777 asks Jim,......”Jim
Why You constantly ask for David Lane

Why ?”

Jim obliges an answer,......to 777 and Spence who also asks the same question,....

Because neither of you know, or care, it seems obvious, the multitudes of sincere seekers, as well as initiated Satsangis that were not only discouraged and driven away from not only RSSB, but Sant Mat and the other Branches of Sant Sat altogether.

I am like a Detective, who KNOWS Lane is guilty of Spiritual Murder to the Multitudes he sentenced to death, by his Articles, Books, Pseudo Science , Brain vs. mind Articles and until Lane is indicted, and brought to Justice in a Trial by a Jury of his Peers, I will continue to be the Thorn in his side until,......either he turns him self in, and confesses he is a Hypocrite, and a Double Agent Fraud, still speaking out of both sides of his mouth, or, he apologizes to those he has really caused to leave the Path, because instead of deleting all of his writings criticizing Gurinder, RSSB and Sant Mat, he has chosen to sell them on the Internet.

Why do you Guys continue harping on what Brian keeps posting to keep holding Gurinder’s feet to the fire and the activities of RSSB?

At least, Brian is honest about his reasons, unlike Lane who has had far, far more effect on the lives of those who have left the Sant Mat Path than any other single Atheist that I have ever come accross.

Lane has never even conviced me, by his writings, that he is not an Atheist, so considering he has posted on Brian’s Forums in the part how Brian is his friend, and what a wonderful meaningful Sat Sang Brian provides by his Churchless Church, what better place could Lane possibly appear to set the Record straight, and either confess he has never changed his mind about any of his past critiques, or he HAS, and has repented, and is back on the RSSB Sach Khand Viceroy Express as a loyal Satsangi in Gurinder Singh’s Good Graces.

The only Way Lane is going to escape from Prosecution is to turn him self in, and confess, explain, or Cop a Plea in this Court of Injustice to Gurinder Singh Dhillon.

I have been chosen by Anami Purush to be Lane’s Prosecuting Attorney.

We can settle out of Court, if Lane comes clean and admits he is a Just as much of an Atheist non believer as Brian is, or, present his Witnesses and evicence to the contrary.

This Court is now adjourned for Recess,
Jim Sutherland

@ All.

Let’s chill and watch the football game or soccer game as the yanks call it.

🏴󠁧󠁢󠁥󠁮󠁧󠁿 England vs Sweden 🇸🇪 !!!

It’s kicks off at 15:00hrs uk time! C’mon England!!!!

It’s more exciting than arguing guys 😀

A Post in RSS Feb. 2016 is an example of how Professor Lane has confused even Charan Initiates still clinging to their glimmer of hope that the Shabd in God. After reading Lane’s old Book, “ Enchanted Land”, a Charan Initiate who had been meditating daily for 40 years posted the following challenging Lane. The Internet Archives have no mercy for denials of past statements by any of us.


“Dave wrote the article everything came from his mind.
He does not believe in a God
And he says the shabd is not God
Basing himself on faquir that it's all created by the mind there is no shabd.
While the edited books he did left the fact Faquir did believe the shabd was God.
And Faquir taught God as shabd.

Faquir did not write his own books it was other people
the mind has created the contradictions the conflicted nature
Mata ji did believe in God why if Faquir supposedly did not.
Faquir so most advanced disciple
Simply if the shabd knows what it's doing then the shabd in the Guru can know
The shabd is God then the guru is a god man. This crumbles his whole Faquir Chadian effect.

This was posted by an advaced desciple who was initiated by Charan even before even Lane was.

Imagine the confusion Lane has caused young Seekers to have.

Jim Sutherland

Here was a other Satsangi posting a challenge to Lane’s “ Chandian effect.” That was years ago, and Lane is still tauting Fakir Chand’s initerviews. How do we English speaking Satsangis who don’t speak Hindi know if Fakir was translated correctly? We don’t.

Here was what the Satsangi posted:

“The books are unanimous God is in the shabd The first form God used is sound the second mater as described by babu ji. This one fact was how Faquir Chand and others have been fooled by the fact that we are told by others that Faquir Chand went against his own Guru said that all this was just a projection of his mind. Or perhaps fraud has been perpetrated against him. Obviously it was just that. The audible life stream before it created this creation was a quiet life force of pure love.

The fact that all unanimously say that the shabd is God makes it easy to worship God within and to realize God in this very life before death.

People who think the sound is just a pleasant sound that rings within nothing more are receiving their just deserts.

When we peel the onion of covers by removing all the obstacles like the Gurus form the colored lights and the cult and its people and stand there with only you and God then you are there with only that eternal being. This is what I believe Faquir Chand was tiring to say.

The life force makes the brain live the life force makes the mind live the life force make a body live. The life force sustains the seer and listener they all get there life from one source that source is called by many names it is also called the shabd dhun.

That shabd is God.

When a Buddhist reaches the last stage who is the observer and listener they do not know, and who is keeping that alive. This one very important point cuts all the strings of illusion in this labyrinth of spirituality. If these people who are soulless and godless cannot answer that then they know nothing.

In the beginning was life and before was also life and that life billion of years in existence is still alive. The audible life stream rings a sound current it is the creator it is God it is the truth that all others are fooled like a blind man who scratches an itch on his head and misses the door to freedom.

Faquir Chand may have been devoted to the shabd because after he reached the age of ninety he was in love with the deep steady tone as he said in his book where his foe forgot to remove that. I believe he has been taken out of context and some cheaters have misrepresented him. Simply he may have meant to say he did not know what the lord does and why the shabd uses his form but it clear it was the shabd or God that saved the people who said they saw Faquir Chand.

It's a shame that credit is not given to the one who deserves it. But it just may be that a few thugs have misrepresented Faquir Chand and dis honored his name simply because he was trying to teach the God the shabd within is who does all the miracles.

People like Ramana and the like who really know nothing about the shabd end up not having the opportunity to devote them self to the real truth. “

Jim Sutherland

I think it's not that easy to overcome the guilt, Jim.

So it might be the case with us in near future
for cursing and blaming the present Master,
if we realise that all the posting we have done against HIM,
were wrong interpretations and games of our own mind,
how easy we'd be able to come onboard and correct ourselves ?

So is the case with Lane,
his online absence itself tells a million things.
If he is reading this, I wish him good luck on the journey.

@ one initiated.

I feel useless if Master knew I would end up like this why initiate me.

I know all the failings are mine and mine alone but I still like him and would love if he drove past my house and waved at me.

Me being silly I guess

@One Initiated, ......in spite of my hounding him to return to the Forums where he has sowed his Karmas, I really do not have any Vitriol against him, other that to entice him to come clean, ( for his own good and health ) and either tell us all he was wrong about his past criticisms of Gurinder, Charan, RSSB and other RS Branches. and to try and explain to us all why he has changed, and what or who convinced him to disappear off the scene , leaving all he has convinced , that Sant Mat Philosophy is not a valid Path to the God that Faquir Chant worshipped.

He has said way too much against the Sant Mat Path to just leave us all hanging with out a valid, humble explanation.

I would apologise in a heart beat, to all I have caused to loose faith in Christ, should I find that I was mistaken by any false information I shared to any Seekers or fellow Satsangis about any of my experiences I have shared in public, on either my blog, or forums.

Jim Sutherland

Hééé Guys, Think

He is no atheist
Multiple times he said he believes in "EXISTENCE"

He is scared to death and also admitted that here

He would end this blog but can't let that happen after what happened to his books
Death

His giant book collection serves as a kind of confirmation support,. . . kind of psychic fundament
but it's not rock, . . it is sand

and when 'doubt' come up , and the bladder prostate tortures, .. there is no comfort in the neighborhood except exponential ''atheism"" @1991_!_madam Hines_

He says "you don't know me" , . . Brian you forget we read also your Salem Blog and much more

You can't find Tara , . . . she is regretting all this half a lifetime, I guess
but your hate of God's man needed to excave revive it

You know like Jim what is the solution to hate
but can't

Until sadness will do . . .


777


Arjuna,
I always loved watching fifa,
however, could not watch a single match this season.

why in the universe you'd think you've ended up ?
that's said by The Great Master:
"even if you find your love and faith in HIM in the last breath of your life, your whole birth is worth it"

I have nothing to go against Jim,
but also I don't buy at all what he says about current Master.
I believe that like many others,
he has also got tricked by his mind and is still in that state
as far as RSSB and Babaji are concerned.

Here are two very important messages from our Masters:

Hazur Maharaj Charan Singh Ji:
"If you spend 2.5 hours daily for 40 days, come and blame me if you don't find any noticeable change"

Sardar Bahadur Singh Ji:
"If you spend 3 continuous hours in thoughtless notion, third eye can be realised."

Have you ever spent 2.5 hours daily (Without fail)
for continuous 40 days ?
If not, then could you do this justice with yourself ?
could you do it continuous for 40 days and share with us all if you notice some significant change ?
If it does, isn't it worth trying ?

Start with spending 15 minutes daily at exactly same time,
Increase 5~10 minutes every week, I am sure you're going to witness amazing changes.
Don't assume the results coming in so quickly - will take time if you've not been sitting for too long.
Also, a lot of ups and downs will be there - sometime the whole week of goodness, sometimes even 10 days dry like there is nothing in it. Consistency in meditation and faith on HIM is the key.

Lots of love brother.

Arjuna,

why in the universe you'd think you've ended up ?
that's said by The Great Master:
"even if you find your love and faith in HIM in the last breath of your life, your whole birth is worth it"

Here are two very important messages from our Masters:

Hazur Maharaj Charan Singh Ji:
"If you spend 2.5 hours daily for 40 days, come and blame me if you don't find any noticeable change"

Sardar Bahadur Singh Ji:
"If you spend 3 continuous hours in thoughtless notion, third eye can be realised."

Have you ever spent 2.5 hours daily (Without fail)
for continuous 40 days ?
If not, then could you do this justice with yourself ?
could you do it continuous for 40 days and share with us all if you notice some significant change ?
If it does, isn't it worth trying ?

Start with spending 15 minutes daily at exactly same time,
Increase 5~10 minutes every week, I am sure you're going to witness amazing changes.
Don't assume the results coming in so quickly - will take time if you've not been sitting for too long.
Also, a lot of ups and downs will be there - sometime the whole week of goodness, sometimes even 10 days dry like there is nothing in it. Consistency in meditation and faith on HIM is the key.

Lots of love brother.

@ One Initiated.

Thank you for the kind reply. I have no words but to say thank you.

I will digest your words of wisdom.

Lots of love and best wishes

So yeah, as he said:
Burn the Books,
only after reading them - ha ha 😃

and sit on meditation after burning 😉

Also don't forget to make yourself a cup of tea on the flames,
will help being awake at 3 AM 😉

@ One Initiated - I wake at 02:47hrs most night on the hour without a clock and on the minute.

Freaky hey 🙏

One Initiated, yes, Typepad has a spam filter. That is essential, especially since i no longer approve comments for publication. Every day Typepad catches actual spam. It also catches some comments that aren't spam. Your comments were quite long, and I recall one included a foreign language, Hindi, I assume. You also submitted the same comment numerous times, which doesn't help. In fact, it might hurt, since the spam filter might assume the comment is coming from an automated spammer.

Anyway, I believe I found and published all of the recent comments that were in the spam section. It doesn't help when comments are copied and repeatedly attempted to publish, because every time I approve a comment in the spam filter, the page resets to the top comment, and I have to scroll through (in your case) repeated lengthy comments, looking for a new one that is a real comment, not spam.

I try to remember to check the spam filter daily, but sometimes I forget.

Hi One Initiated,

Great and helpful comments!

Thank you!!

@ Spencer - yourself, Uncle Jim and One initiated may have helped in ways you cannot possibly fathom. Thank you.

Ps England win against Sweden in Russia 2-0. We are through to the semi finals first time in 28 years in the World Cup.

Think posting that up here - brought the team luck lol

Arjuna
"Ps England win against Sweden in Russia 2-0. We are through to the semi finals first time in 28 years in the World Cup.

Think posting that up here - brought the team luck lol"

LOL!!

Brian,
Thank you for going through them and publishing, I really appreciate that.

Thanks Spencer, I am glad.

Arjuna - Yo Brother !! ⚽

@ Spencer - yes posting the England game on here brought them a win. Imagine all the spiritual power on here.

@ One Initiated - loved your football response - awesome😀

777, I deleted your ridiculous comment about me and my health problem. You and your wife don't know me, and you don't know anything about how I deal with life, this blog, or anything else.

I'm (obviously) open to all kinds of strange and often erroneous comments being posted on this blog, but I draw the line at hurtful personal attacks directed at me, or anyone else..

Talk about issues. Talk about current events. Talk about philosophy. But keep the personal attacks to yourself. Your comments already often are notoriously off-topic. My advice to you is to act like a normal courteous human being who is speaking face-to-face with other people. Frequently you spout stuff that either is incomprehensible, or would make people you're talking to go, "Huh? I have no idea what that means."

And again, when it comes to personal attacks -- keep them in your own mind, not in a comment you want to be shared on this blog. I'm not OK with personal attacks directed at me, because I'm not OK with personal attacks directed at anybody.

There wasn't much seva today at Haynes as everyone watched the England match at 3pm in the sports hall on 2 big screens.

I think with Baba Ji's grace England went through lol.

One Initiated says: "I have nothing to go against Jim,
but also I don't buy at all what he says about current Master.
I believe that like many others, he has also got tricked by his mind and is still in that state as far as RSSB and Babaji are concerned."

This is so ridiculous and also very revealing as to the bias in the way satsangis think that they cannot even see or hear the truth if their guru shows who he really is, just another impure human being with faults like all the rest of us. The power of belief is staggering and also shows how desperate people are and how easily they can be fooled.

You are right
I should have send it in an email

It was 4 U anyway

Sorry for the mistake

777

Afterall our Master deleted it

777, No I deleted it. Please don't assume that I share your fantasies.

Brian,

I did read that comment though before you deleted,
Honestly, I didn't find it was an attack at all.

I completely believe that it was a genuine concern for you.

And so do I genuinely wish you to feel better soon, brother.

One Initiated, it was a gratuitous uncalled-for comment that assumed that my health condition controls me, whereas actually it is a problem that I'm dealing with pretty darn well. I resented a stranger, "777," considering that he knows me better than I know myself, when actually he doesn't know me at all, except through my writings.

The Big Fallacy, which most religiously-minded commenters on this blog make regularly, as do people in general, is that they wrongly believe that they know what motivates someone to do something. Actually, they don't. It is a neuroscientific fact that our behavior, including thoughts and feelings, emanates from sources in the mind outside of conscious awareness.

So these commenters don't even know why they are doing what they're doing, much less why someone else is doing what they're doing. But they have been ascribing motives to Tara, for example, that are unfounded. Yes, it is human nature to want to believe that we know why someone is doing something. That's why gossip is so addicting.

But a wiser approach is to focus on what a person is doing, which includes what they are writing, obviously. That's why I keep asking people to focus on WHAT Tara said, or WHAT i'm saying, rather than engaging in assumptions about WHY someone is saying something. You can disagree with a "what." Speculating about "why" often, if not usually, is unproductive.

Tara herself says that it was learning about some disturbing things going on with RSSB and Gurinder Singh (likely financial dealings) that led to her becoming disenchanted with RSSB/Sant Mat. I take her at her word. Maybe this isn't the whole truth, but like I just said, no one knows the whole truth about Tara's behavior, not even Tara.

Yet commenters on this blog have been talking about how it was Tara's lack of spiritual progress that caused her deconversion. They say this with no evidence, no proof, and they don't even know Tara. Plus, it is at odds with what Tara said. They use their speculations to discount WHAT she said because supposedly the WHY is suspect. However, they don't know the why, only the what.

Why is President Trump doing what he is doing? I have no idea, though hypotheses abound. But that doesn't stop me from criticizing what he is doing. The why may be interesting to talk about, but the what is much more important. I readily admit that I too fall prey to engaging in "why" speculations, but at least I recognize that this is a fool's quest.

-

I now understand

You lost contact with Tara
She might be dead since 20 years
or have seen the Light

What was her age at the 'write'-time ?

777

Hi Marko - thank you for reposting my comment from RSS to here :o) I tried twice, but it never came through! No, I have never communicated with "Tara" (I think Tim might have? :)...I don't even really recall any of her posts, but the name rang a bell....brave and courageous woman, if she is who she says she is, which there's no reason to doubt.....her comments are clearly very well informed indeed, regardless, and one of the most interestings posters on RSSB I've ever read!

Hi "GS" - thanks for sharing, it's much appreciated....

Hi Spencer - reading your justification of how Gurinder and his sons made their millions, how they were humanitarian "heroes", was amusing. For those of us not affiliated with any particular religion or group, and who understand capitalism, the pharmaceutical industry, shareholder profit, the claims that were made against them, what it takes to reach the top ten richest Indians etc.....they would perhaps only be able to giggle at the contortions you feel forced to make to portray them as "heroes". It would be incredible, if it wasn't so utterly predictable! ;)

It is noteworthy that amongst all this defence of Gurinder, justifications for his obscene wealth, his sexualised comments during satsang, clear creation of a worldly foundation to his organisation etc, that there is not a single indicator or reason to believe he actually is the "Perfect Living Master", sole saviour in the entire universe, the person the entire infinite creation on 3 levels etc was actually created for, a perfect & infallible human being with divine insights and powers etc. Indeed, there are no apparent indications he is a "mystic" or deeply "realised" person at ALL, other than the mere fact of his worldly position, handed to him by his uncle, as the leader of a worldly religion?

All the "inner experiences", synchronicities etc that are PROJECTED upon him clearly - very clearly - don't prove anything about him or his theology, per se, as these experiences are had by countless others with different gurus and even beliefs, even gurus who are obvious and self-proclaimed "frauds".

Some people are interested in a comforting, self-based narrative, a journey to "sach khand" in the company of the sole "Satguru" of mankind, where personal bliss is experienced for eternity eg.; that is fine. But others are more interested in the nature of reality itself. They are not happy with synchronicities and "inner experiences" that appear to confirm the reality of one's beliefs, but rather want to examine why these SAME experiences happen to people of ALL beliefs, what is the ultimate nature of reality BEYOND my PERSONAL ego's journey and narrative....

Hi One Initiated - you ask: "Hazur Maharaj Charan Singh Ji:
"If you spend 2.5 hours daily for 40 days, come and blame me if you don't find any noticeable change".......

Have you ever spent 2.5 hours daily (Without fail)
for continuous 40 days ?"

In the hathayogapradipika, the 15th century tantric "kundalini" text, it is claimed: "82. By practicing with this nada, all other external sounds are stopped. The Yogi becomes happy by overcoming all distractions within 15 days."

Why 25 days slower for Charan initiates? :)

Charan also claimed that if someone followed the instruction for "6 months", they would have some sort of "experience" which confirms or "proves" for them the "validity" of the RSSB path.

Sawan, and David Lane, have both mentioned the notion that if one can sit still for 3 hours without moving (and falling asleep), one would surely reach the 3rd eye - this is an old tantric claim, too. These are universal biological mechanisms available for anyone to use, regardless of one's affiliation with any particular "guru" or organisation

Kirpal Singh, on the other hand, promised some sort of "spiritual experience" of the 3rd eye at the very moment of initiation regardless of the initiate's preparation, in order to prove his power & capability to "initiate" into the shabd. He also claimed that Jagat & Charan were not real Satgurus with the ability to perform this "real" initiation, but more like worldly caretakers of the "mayaic" religious organisation and properties of RSSB.

What to make of all this confusion amongst the Pooran Sant Satguru successors of Sawan? Not to mention the utter confusion surrounding Jaimal's "succession" to Soamiji!

Who is the "real" "Satguru"? All of them? None of them? Just Baba Billionaire so and so? Does it even matter?

Hi All - I personally don't find RSSB to be any more potentially dangerous than any other mainstream religion or even secular ideology. However, the behaviour and rationalisations and justifications of many followers of RSSB, just like any other religion, can be "cultic" at times. It can be wise to notice this behaviour in others quietly and non-judgementally, and in this way we might realise the ways we do it ourselves:

https://www.imdb.com/title/tt8457940/

I can see several episodes are available on online, interesting documentary series.

Also, a highly recommended documentary (just found this youtube link, hope it's the complete version):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J_xFeyUXjno

Hi Arjuna - It's coming home!!! (though probably not) :D PS - are you the now infamous and legendary guy who tackled Gurinder at Haynes Park and knocked his turban a bit off?!

Hi Jim! - It is interesting you post what looks like "Ramnam's" (Daniel) comments (but with good spelling!) from RSS over here (is it him?), as if some sort of valid criticism of David Lane and Faqir Chand!

It is interesting because I think it highlights one of the major problems with RS & specifically RSSB as a "safe" "spiritual system" of evolution.

Ramnam is of course one of the most profane & personally abusive posters in the history of the RSS forum, legendarily so! Having debated him many times over 20 years, it is evident his knowledge of many things he attempted to discuss was virtually non-existent (like Ramana Maharshi), yet he debated nonetheless. Often, he would return many years later having "integrated", to some extent, that what he was debating against years prior (for eg., lucid dreams, or for eg. his recent "Automatic Path", trademark, which seems to be a restatement of ancient indian philosophy more representative of Advaita than RS etc).

He is also known for his statement of reclining in the "astral realm" with Charan Singh whilst Charan smoked a cigar (5 names tested, for sure)!

There simply is no understanding of how the mind creates illusions, at all. And as the physical guru - EVEN IF s/he be utterly competent - is so distant and remote, that there is ZERO chance of personalised, individualised instruction and advice, that we are literally left with our mind and it's creations, and a flimsy and demonstrably untrue "5 names test", we are essentially potentially lost in our dualistic fantasies forever. Or until death, at least!

That is why 777 believes, and has clearly stated, that he has come "to save Jim's soul". That is why 777 believes, apparently, judging by his recent posts (some deleted), that he has also come to save Brian's "soul". He has "5 names tested" these "beliefs", right? Not realising these are fantasies of the ego, he also doesn't realise that his behaviour towards these posters doesn't have the whiff of "divine intercession", but instead the whiff of egotistical behaviour motivated by a hurt & bruised ego. So indoctrinated is this sense of "divine" (read delusional & egotistical) purpose, that other RS believers instead of requesting he be more thoughtful of his behaviour, will actually enable & reinforce this kind of obviously delusional, hurtful & un-compassionate behaviour. Having made some criticisms of RS here, I was told by one poster, in a completely incoherent and transparently delusional rant, that I "will eat shit, and eat it soon". In response to this, another RSSB poster, one who I feel likes to portray themself as the rational, sane representative of RSSB here, instead of criticising that previous poster's angry, delusional, wishing for suffering of another human being simply due to a theological disagreement post, actually reinforced and enabled them, and adding, without any hint of irony, how some posters - referring to me and my perceived criticisism of RSSB - "have mental health issues".

Anyway, this is all dangerous, "cultic" behaviour, if you ask me.

Ramnam also reminds me of another of your friends from the RSS forum, Michael Martin. I've heard you praise him here. It is worth noting this was another person who thought the "inner Charan" had appointed them the "Western Satguru", and stuck to this claim despite RSSB writing a letter stating this was, obviously, not so and incorrect. He is most well known for his ridiculous & outrageously self-centred & outlandish claims, such as one of the NASA shuttle disasters in Texas occurring as a warning to all the online posters, such as David Lane, that criticised him. He believed his visions because he supposedly had a magical "5 word test" than magically banished the illusions created by an ego-centric self.

This also reminds me, Jim - did you ever meet Katherine Weston (is it, Wesson, C instead of K maybe?), who was a Charan initiate, and then set up her own "ministry" as a shabd yoga guru in USA, and also doesn't have complimentary things to say about Gurinder? She wrote a book for RSSB, I think it was called "Living Master", but they discontinued it possibly because she set up on her own. Anyway, she was in America, possibly is still around, giving sound and light initiation.....

Speaking of the delusions and conceptual fantasies that are fed to us through our visionary and other assorted inner experiences, you mention the OAHPSE book, and have mentioned the Alan Kardec books previously too.

I think BEFORE any seriously discussion can take place around ANY channelled material - or the veracity and validity of the conceptual cosmologies and theologies presented therein, utterly contradictory as they very often are, this book should be read as a most basic primer and introduction to the subject:

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Channeling-Investigations-Receiving-Information-Paranormal/dp/1556432488

Without this basic level of understanding of the phenomena, we are left clinging to absurd, lacking in evidence concepts and cosmologies, but sound lovely and flowery like those presented in OAHPSE, the Book or Mormon or whatever else.

Further, without having a thorough familiarity with the works of FWH Myers and subsequent scientific, psychological and philosophical works such as, for 1 example out of thousands, "Irreducible Mind", we are again at a loss to understand the phenomena of channelling and the, if any, significance of the "concepts" which are expressed through it.

As well as it's inextricable connection to mystical experiences, paranormal phenomena, "past life regression", poltergeists & hauntings, "alien abduction" narratives etc etc OF ALL SORTS.

PS - Yeah, those satsangs of Chand David Lane translated, they ARE accurate translations! They are, or at least were, posted up in the original Hindi-punjabi for a long while. I can understand Hindi, and I listened to all of them - I was struck out just how accurate Lane's presentation of his teachings were, especially seeing as Chand is talking to his Sikh disciple, not a westerner!

Cheers!

Hello - Manjit.

Lol. I do like football but Master did call me a “cheat” when I mistimed my tackle against another sevadar. I felt gutted - it destroyed as I would never hurt another.

Perhaps he was looking at my past lives - but I cannot remember what I may have done.

I gotta feeling Manjit that England will do it but as you stated probably not. It would be nice though.

All the best

Manjit,Arjuna,

Football is the Guru's favorite sport, that's why he allowed the England game against Sweden to be shown on the 2 TV's in the sports hall.

Are any of you going to the national satsangs next month? My parents know I don't follow RS anymore, but if I don't go next month, my mum will be very disappointed lol.

Manjit, your name rings a bell, did you ever post on Lane's forum? I'd love to email you privately.

Hi Manjit

You wrote
"There simply is no understanding of how the mind creates illusions, at all. And as the physical guru - EVEN IF s/he be utterly competent - is so distant and remote, that there is ZERO chance of personalised, individualised instruction and advice, that we are literally left with our mind and it's creations, and a flimsy and demonstrably untrue "5 names test", we are essentially potentially lost in our dualistic fantasies forever. Or until death, at least!"

The mind creates illusions that is for sure.

No where is this more obvious than watching someone, caught up in their illusion of perfect truth, discounting everyone who believes differently than they do as wrong.

" The opposite of one truth may not be false. It may be another truth."
Niels Bohr.

@ GS. Yes I heard and it was awesome for Master to do that.

I am not going to National satsang but would love to go to see Him. Long story.

All the very best brother

Hi Arjuna - I wouldn't take everything Gurinder says so seriously, he has a tendency to muck around, be "playful"....he was probably just talking about something you did on the pitch!

Hi G.S. - yes, I've posted on that forum for decades! Are you from the UK? How old are you - I used to go Haynes Park every single weekend (some holidays etc) for several years, some 20-22 years ago? I was once there when Gurinder played football with the kids. I could have played too but I decided to continue with my seva instead! Lots of stories from those days :)

Hi Spencer, you wrote: "No where is this more obvious than watching someone, caught up in their illusion of perfect truth, discounting everyone who believes differently than they do as wrong."

Yes, this explains Soamiji's Sar Bachan and Radhasoami theology perfectly. But this doesn't address the points I actually made? It seems you are instead suggesting that I am caught up in an "illusion of perfect truth", a random semi-anonymous person on a forum with absolutely no organisation, books, anything of any note to sell on any human level, whilst completely ignoring you are completely & whole-heartedly following and defending a faith that explicitly does exactly what you are projecting onto this random individual, ie. me?

Never mind, we all have our dharmas to follow :)

Hi Jim - I think you're being unfair on Dave in your comments, although I agree he perhaps should make some public statement seeing as all these rumours and claims are floating around.

However, I think it clear from he continues to post in public, and in context of his work for Oxford University Press with Prof. Juergensmeyer, that his views more or less remain the same, and that much ado about nothing is being made online.

This is what David Lane wrote late last year:

http://www.integralworld.net/lane129.html

An absolutely excellent & informative essay on the actual practice of shabd yoga.

He posted this a few days ago on RSS forum (I bought my copy from amazon uk!):

https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/radhasoamistudies/conversations/messages/263443

etc.

There is absolutely no reason to make a conflagration between his work, some random visits to Beas or satsang, with any kind of advocacy of the RSSB guru, path or theology.

Cheers!

Oh dear, I wrote several responses but it hasn't been posted, I think I may have closed the window before it was sent! :(

Briefly then...

Hi Arjuna - I would take everything Gurinder says so seriously, he is known for "having a laugh", he was probably just teasing you for something you did on the pitch (perhaps he was simply mistaken!).

Hi G.S. - yes, I've posted over at Dave's (now James') Radhasoamistudies forum for 20 odd years now! How old are you? I used to do seva at Haynes Park every weekend and some holidays for several years, around 18-22 years ago (I'm 40 now). I was there when Gurinder played football with some kids....I could have joined in, as I often played there, but decided to carry on with my seva. Plenty of stories from those days :)

Hi Spencer, you wrote: "The mind creates illusions that is for sure.

No where is this more obvious than watching someone, caught up in their illusion of perfect truth, discounting everyone who believes differently than they do as wrong."

Yes, this describes Soamiji's Sar Bachan and RS theology perfectly, but how does it address any of the specific points I raised? It seems instead of realising that you fully & whole-heartedly follow & defend an organisation & theology that does precisely this, you are projecting onto little old me, a random, semi-anonymous person on a comments section of a blog with no organisation, belief, book or anything on any other level to "sell", this elitist mindset that is clearly and transparently laid out in RS theology? In other words, you seem somewhat confused?

Hi Jim & Joe - I think you're being somewhat unfair to David Lane re his association with RSSB and Gurinder, based on gossip and hearsay, and his visit to Beas or a few local satsangs. (though I agree he should make some sort of public information release!)

It is clear that, in context of his work for Oxford University Press and Proff. Juergensmeyer, and his recent postings, for example this brilliant, insightful essay on shabd yoga posted late last year:

http://www.integralworld.net/lane129.html

Or this posted to the RSS forum 4 days ago (I bought my copy from amazon uk yesterday!):

https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/radhasoamistudies/conversations/messages/263443

That his visit to Beas or whatever doesn't necessarily mean his views have really "changed" from what he has stated in the past, and continues to state in his public output.

Cheers!

Quote Manjit
That his visit to Beas or whatever doesn't necessarily mean his views have really "changed" from what he has stated in the past, and continues to state in his public output....

.....oh Manjit but it is the change and that of a big time! He sent me long mail report some time ago but he pleased me to not say and posted on forums so i will not. Didnt you contact him he said to me you do so.

Hi Marko!

You asked: ".....oh Manjit but it is the change and that of a big time! He sent me long mail report some time ago but he pleased me to not say and posted on forums so i will not. Didnt you contact him he said to me you do so."

Yes, I contacted him today requesting a public comment, and he very kindly & generously responded in great detail.

I believe my original comment very accurately describes his current position, and that is why I made the statement in the first place :)

His actions - for instance posting that Faqir Chand book a few days ago, should speak more loudly than his silence imo.

Take care & good night......Manjit :)

Re. the good Dr Lane, I will just add, and I don't think he would mind me mentioning this, but he does clearly state the following 3 books of his which "best summarise" his "viewpoints":

1. WHY I MEDITATE
2. THE GURU QUESTION
3. THE DOUBTING MEDITATOR

I will try and locate these tomorrow on his neuralsurfer website, but it would be nice if somebody could post the links to the pdfs.....Dave's ideas can then be discussed or critiqued or praised!

I do know, if they're anything at all like his "Shabd Yoga 4.0" article I linked above, they will be really informative & intelligent insights into RS and RS meditation...

G'nite, I have work tomorrow! :)

This fascination with someone's view that once agreed with yours, looking for confirmation they still feel that way today.

Are they your Guru?

Do you need anyone else to tell you what to think?

I believe I may understand the mentality of some ex-ers.

They wanted someone to tell them what to think.

And they didn't get it in Sant Mat.

Now they accuse Satsangis of blind adherence, the thing they craved and didn't get.

And, sadly, seem to still be looking for.

Your only confirmation is going to come from inside you. Not a committee, but a guru, not even a spouse. Not even a friend. Can only come from you.

Just you.

... Typo
"not a committee, not a guru, not even a spouse...."

Manjit,

It's quite possible it's the illusional world you're in.
because of the missing guidance of the Master.

Instead of blaming the Masters and RSSB,
had you been under Their Guidance,
you could have marvellously progressed higher and above,
than being stuck for so long in the Astral Circus.

Have you ever asked yourself the question that
why you are there where you are ? and why you can't proceed ?
Do you even see the possibility that your mind has played huge game on you.

In which you happen to believe that you know everything and even the origin
of all the inner experiences of others.

And you also know about others' fears - Amazing, I see ego is winning the game again.
When one is not even fully aware of their own fears, claims to know about others'.

Even to very funny extent that
you declare about the consciousness levels of the various Masters.

You've not yet responded to this question yet:
When you yourself claims to be in Astral,
and you understand the theory about Causal, Par-Brahm and Sachkhand,
then how do you explain the levels and details that which Master belongs to which Level ?

No wonder that the comments or commenters who counter your stand,
you find them ridiculous.
Because you actually don't have answers to the falsehood you are spreading.
And the only reason I see in these responses of yours is - Your Ego.
You feel that you are in Astral Ecstasy without bowing to any Master,
You've now started to think that you don't even need a Master
and that you're doing good on your own.

And that thinking extrapolated to make you even egoistic
to start blaming and cursing the Masters now.
Claiming that they are not even the Masters,
If they are not - what about the others' who have profound inner experiences with the Masters.
I remember reading (I don't know the link right now) an account of an Australian initiate of Babaji,
having met HIM inside and constantly under HIS blessing - that disciple has shared it all online
and actually a very beautiful account to read.

Will you really tag all the experiences of RSSB initiates as illusion and hallucination ?
and call your own Astral experiences as real ?
Is that really fair and sincere ?
I don't think so, Manjit, infact it's quite misleading for the new age young seekers.

Shouldn't you try to find the feet you can bow to ?
Especially since you have mentioned and believe that there Are/Were the Dayal Masters.
And it's always been said:
if not many, there will always be at least One present in the world.
And if you don't trust Babaji then why not someone else ?
So that you may progress to further heights and may benefit others too,
Why don't you explore and find your Dayal Master - and share with us all here as well!

@ Spencer - love you dude ! You really have killed it (that’s a groovy compliment).

Yes confimation comes from within not from others etc!! I will remember that so inspiring😀

That was a 🥊.

😀 have a good day

Hi Manjit, you should seen the first and fresh original letter of David...he is very polite but throug that politness one can also get to know that he (D) will keep somethings for himself.But i am ok with your expllanation too i just told my expirience with this situation.

Hi Marko - fair enough! :)

He made it quite clear - in a very long & detailed email - that his views haven't changed, he didn't actually meet Gurinder, that his attendance at Beas last year was related to his work etc etc. He also made clear those three books I listed state his "current views". Perhaps find the links, post them here, and we can discuss? :)


Hi Spencer,

You write, making numerous inferences & mind-reading-esque leaps of assumption, "This fascination with someone's view that once agreed with yours, looking for confirmation they still feel that way today.
Are they your Guru?
Do you need anyone else to tell you what to think?
I believe I may understand the mentality of some ex-ers.
They wanted someone to tell them what to think.
And they didn't get it in Sant Mat."

Well, you are right on ONE point - they DID want someone to tell them how they think.....BUT they DID get it in "Sant Mat", and that is evidenced every day in every way. To deny or not notice that takes staggering levels of self-deceit and self-delusion, imo. It really is without question!

What actually happened to some of them is, they started to realise that what "Sant Mat" (I am not fond of all neologisms!) was telling them to think, was actually utterly ridiculous and related in no way whatsoever to reality itself! So they searched for an alternative authority figure to guide them....

Yes, I too have noticed the propensity of satsangis to out-source all their intellectual, emotional, experiential even responsibility to somebody else; initially this is the guru, but when their minds told them these beliefs were naive, contradictory & incoherent, they immediately looked to another source to out-source their thinking to.

As I have mentioned on the RSS forum over the years, there was a distinct whiff of people who view David Lane as some sort of pseudo-guru figure. It is understandable, it is the same psychology of every RS satsangi, only it is placed within a different conceptual framework - David Lane is clever and honest enough to tell me what to think!

In regards your inference this kind of dynamic relates to me - absolutely laughable as that would be to anybody who even has the slightest understanding of me, and my interactions with Dave over the years - let me clarify a thing or two.

I first heard the rumours about Dave and his visit to Beas, and rumours of his "returning to the fold", around Oct last year. Several people have emailed me about it, offering to pass on what they knew, learn from David Lane by private email, or suggesting I email him myself directly.

I both declined the offer to hear the "full story", and did not email him - despite SEVERAL private emailers requesting I do so - in all that time, 8 odd months.

Yesterday I finally emailed him, based on the comments (and personal insults) that were being levelled at him. The content of my request by private email to Dave (whom I have had private email discussions years ago, and hundreds online) contained these words: "I really didn't want to disturb you privately, but both myself and quite a few others have made public requests on the RSS forum and CotC blog which have gone unanswered over several months (not sure if you even see them). I've received a couple of private emails saying they know the answer to my query and could tell me, or that I should email you directly and you would answer the question......but I have declined their offer & resisted emailing you privately because I feel I found out about you and your influential work in the public domain, like many others, and that I should also find out in the public domain, with all others!"

I also stated, later in the email: "I am sure a great many people will appreciate some sort of clarification on your experience?.......

Alternatively, as some have suggested to me in private, please could you share/explain a little to me in private email - knowing full well I would share it (or at least any parts not clearly private, or you specifically request I don't make public, I can be trusted 100% in that sense!) openly in online discussions (otherwise, best to say nothing)? 😝😉 "

David, in his very generous & thorough response, did not at any point state I should not make his reply public, as I clearly threatened to do so above :)

So, all in all, Spencer, your attempt at pop-pseudo-amateur-psychological profiling (and absurd defence that the need to be told what to think doesn't occur in RS! :-o) me and my motivations seems to be based on a somewhat fantastic level of ignorance of me?

Cheers!


Hi Manjit,...you write to Marcho regarding Lane,...”He made it quite clear - in a very long & detailed email - that his views haven't changed, he didn't actually meet Gurinder, that his attendance at Beas last year was related to his work etc etc. He also made clear those three books I listed state his "current views". Perhaps find the links, post them here, and we can discuss? :)”

Yet, Marko said his email from Lane painted a very different picture. If Lane has not changed his views, than why did his friend, who is his Western Rep. tell me, when we were sitting beside each other in the Golf Cart on the way to Sat Sang last Oct. at the Dera, “ David Lane is now a Changed Man”? What changed? Do you think he now believes Gurinder Singh is GIHF, and RSSB is the only ligitimate RS Branch? He would need to convince Neal Tessler, i.e. Vegistew that RSSB is the only real deal. Another Chand Book is never going to appease most of us.

Brain Hines has never weighed in on Lane’s Change or no Change. He also must have his “ detailed” explanation from Lane regarding his Change or no Change.

So what gives? Unless Lane is telling every one he speaks to his same story, and every one is giving different interpretations of it, it sure appears to me that Lane MUST still be talking out of both sides of his mouth.

Did he go see Gurinder at Petaluma when he cane in April, or when he attends Satsangs, is that still because of his work?

Until Lane surfaces and states publically, if he has changed or not, he has not been honest with the public.

Jim Sutherland

Hi Jim - you recount the anecdotal recollection of a fully dyed-in-the-wool RSSB satsangi, a "rep" nonetheless, as some sort of body of critical evidence against Mr Lane? I can only ask, why?

You ask "Do you think he now believes Gurinder Singh is GIHF, and RSSB is the only ligitimate RS Branch? "

I think that every bit of Dave's recent media output, and his email to me, suggests this is absolutely not true in any sense, whatsoever.

I also hope you haven't lost awareness of the fact that over 20 years on RSS forum, he repeatedly, over & over again, stated he continued to meditate and felt deep love towards Charan, albeit whilst recognising his humanity?

But you can of course email him directly to find out? As I almost promised him I would reveal any response in public & he didn't even hint at keeping it private, here's part of the response:

"Intellectually, my views have not changed. I am still as skeptical as ever. You can probably see that in my latest writings as well, particularly the introduction to the new Faqir Chand book"

"So, I am still the old skeptical Dave who appreciated being treated so kindly regardless of how critical I may be."

There is much praise by Dave of how nicely RSSB staff treated him & his family, and his sweet remembrance of Charan, but these are not ideas incongruent with any of his previous comments over the decades....

Cheers!

Manjit

"You ask "Do you think he now believes Gurinder Singh is GIHF, and RSSB is the only ligitimate RS Branch? "

I think that every bit of Dave's recent media output, and his email to me, suggests this is absolutely not true in any sense, whatsoever."

Let's actually take another look at this.

Dave was impressed by his talk the Beas Dera secretary "since he seemed to agree on almost all points concerning Faqir Chand’s realizations" (also, very interestingly, Dave learnt his visit that Chand used to give satsang at Beas during Sawan's time....and to think some of the comments made about him here by wise RSSbers! :).

This comes back to this Gurinder's "Sant Mat 2.0, 3.0" etc Many of us have noticed that Gurinder seems to be saying things wildly contradictory to standard RS dogma and theology which has existed for a century, and that this very clear and transparent dissonance is causing confusion amongst his followers and observers.

For instance, posters here, old timers (really, is there anybody left in RS BUT old-timers, and those Indians born into the religion? Young people do not appear to find this path, theology and gurus as a viable spiritual path, nowadays? Perhaps because it's so darn silly? :), who have learnt their theology and dogma from Charan and RS books, are unable to reconcile coherently what their books say, ie. what they believe, and what their guru is actually saying.

I have heard Gurinder say on numerous occasions that RS and shabd yoga are NOT the only paths to "God", and that there are many equally VALID approaches (something I personally think is extremely commendable of him, and very decent....it almost hints at the possibility he does have SOME level of "realisation", at least :) - he even said this when asked about a specific different guru and path (the sudarshan kriya guy, perhaps?), as well as other "kundalini" gurus. I have heard this in several different Q&As.

You simply will never hear Gurinder repeat elitist claims about this path, a trait something he does not share with most if not all his predecessors. Which explains the confusion of RSSB apologists and defenders here.

Posters here, seemingly either unaware of Gurinder having said this, or ignoring it because they are unable to process the cognitive dissonance, will continue to repeat the elitist RS dogma that is written about in the books, whilst their very own guru will answer every single time he is asked "all paths are equally valid".

What to make of such a predicament?

Hi Manjit,....we all, or most of us still meditate, for various reasons, related or not to RSSB, but still are using the Five Names Mantra. I still fo 2-3 hours a day. You also asked some o e if they ever meditated 2-1/2 hours at a sitting fir 40 days. I did exactly that, for SEVEN solid years, and posted my experience years ago to the forums, .

Do you think Lane’s attending Satsangs and going to Petaluma to see Gurinder was still because of his work, and because he is treated good by Satsangis and Sevadors while still retaining his critical views of Gurinder and Sant Mat in general is becsuse of his work?

His Rep. Vince Saverise is Lane’s old friend from way back, and is still Gurinder’s Proxy Initiator for the U.S. Western Region. Now why, would you not wonder why him telling me that Lane is a Changed man, right after Lane went to the Dera with his Wife and two sons do not have any important significance regarding Lane’s Change or no change?

Lane is a bigger Spinster than Obama was, with his unchanging changless changes! 😅

I think he has you as hypnotized as much as Gurinder has Spence and 777 hypnotized.

No doubt, David Lane is the best Spin Artist of Sant Mat I have ever read on the Internet.

I would not buy any of his Books, but I would pay to see a two hour public debate between Lane and Ishwar Puri, with Neil Tessler hosting the Debate and asked the questions for both to answer!!

Jim Sutherland


Jim! :) You write: "I think he has you as hypnotized"

This is a little bit of a strange comment.

I honestly feel you would be well served to read Spencer's comment about people feeling the need to be told what to think, for always seeking authority figures. It seems it is a terribly hard habit to shake and to be able stand on one's own feet.

You do not seem to be aware you are casting numerous aspersions on somebody based on nothing but hearsay from others and an apparent lack of deep understanding of what he's been saying online for decades, as well as his personal family and professional concerns?

Ultimately, my curiosity about Dave's personal journey is just that, curiosity. It really doesn't matter on any level, personally speaking, and I only contacted him to request a PUBLIC comment. His reply - which I'm sure he would send to anybody who actually bothers to contact him to find out rather than casting baseless aspersions - clarified what should have been obvious; nothing's changed. Which is probably why he's made no public comment, and continues to publish the same material he always has. I feel this has been blown out of all reasonable proportion by those who have a dog in this race, and unlike what Spencer insinuates, it's not me. Perhaps ask your "rep" friend?

PS - I cannot wait to read the intro to his new book on Chand's London satsangs!! (which you wouldn't buy - clearly being more knowledgeable and insightful than Chand, who meditated on shabd for hours a day for decades, was considered a guru by many of different faiths, and held satsang at Beas during the 1940s during Sawan's time - no need to listen to his final teachings Jim, you know enough already, you "Gun for Christ" you! ;)

Sorry Jim, you wrote "You also asked some o e if they ever meditated 2-1/2 hours at a sitting fir 40 days. I did exactly that, for SEVEN solid years"

Actually, One Initiated wrote that during his mentoring of Arjuna, I believe, I think it was a quote of Charan's?

I have a different opinion of this - I think this much meditation, if not done skillfully, will accomplish potentially nothing but the most vague, fleeting of semi-astral, hypnagogic imagery, and no real absorption in the "shabd" (ie., to the point it is "sucking up" and "out" the awareness of your body towards the top and "out" of your head. Ie, sounds can be heard, but they do not "pull" or drag us into their relative dimension or frequency of consciousness being). Vague, infrequent & unspectacular experiences I suspect are more the norm for people who lives their worldly lives as normal, but dedicate 2 1/2 hours a day to meditation every morning.

More realistically, "peak" experiences need to be generated by doing up to 12 hours meditation a day, with no diversions or distractions all day. This can create a "momentum" which can then, possibly, spill over into & fruition in 2 1/2 hours meditation a day. However, if you can hold the meditation posture without moving, swallowing, scratching etc, even subtly shifting one's position, for THREE HOURS, it is very possible your body will be FORCED into thinking it has fallen asleep, which will trigger the "unusual" state of consciousness that is "astral consciousness", or the realm where light can manifest as the "radiant form" of your image of deity. Or so the tantric claim (also made by Sawan) goes, anyway.

Manjit we can say a few words in private about that cause i respect Dave and will wait for online discussion till he comes here.
But as you see he answers everytime.
So Dear Jim as Manjit said send him letter and he will surely explain to you.


But for me i probably fit in Lane 4.0 shabd yoga cause i also admire Manjits exploration of consciousness and that of many aporoaches which at the end brings mystical wondering feeling.

Tara wrote
"He's actually the one who controls everything, the board members are pawns. I know a gentleman who served on the board and his pet answer was " mauj " to everything Gurinder did. He finally quit, couldn't handle the lies."

"lies" is Tara's accusation, her judgement, not an actual listing of facts.

Tara wrote
"It has become a pseudo-spiritual juggernaut with a single-minded ambition to acquire as much property and land as possible."

Psuedo spiritual is a judgment. They are buying land and building centers for the Sangat. That's actually just an extension of the development of the Dera itself, creating accommodations for more of the Sangat.

Tara conflates this claiming this is pseudo-spiritual. That's an accusation that isn't actually grounded in fact. The fact that RSSB, as any organization, is growing its centers doesn't proof they are not spiritual . There is a logical connection actually with an organization's mission to spread its spiritual teachings and their efforts to grow. In fact the growth of the organizations centers may in fact be part of its mission to make the teachings more and more excessible. Tara's own invented rule "if you grow your centers you can't be spiritual" is irrational and falls apart under the faintest scrutiny. As she presents it, it appears to be groundless criticism.

Tara wrote
"
Besides, the RSSB management will ensure that they get the required mileage from this activity to maintain their charitable status with the taxmen, while countrywide, followers will drop their jaws in awe at the humility and love expressed by their Guru on this trip. "

The construction of new schools devastated by flood where no other relief workers was taken up by Satsangis us to the credit of the Satsangis.

Tara ignores this fact.

In an exchange she comments

" Poster: You didn't pay a dime for the boarding & lodging at the Dera..
Tara: Well, that was Charan Singh's idea, thank him for that. I wonder what Gurinder would have done !"

Tara fails to realize that no room and board is in fact Gurindar 's decision to continue and has been for decades. But even if he chose to charge a nominal fee to cover expenses that would be within the ethics of running an organization, even a spiritual one.

Her judgment comes from a preconceived belief and informs every innuendo and accusation without exception.

Tara also claims a connections to all sorts of hidden people....

"How do I know this ? A close family has a relative who works for Religare, and I'm good friends with people who are well connected with the ' inner circle ' members."

More telling is her history;

"FYI dude, I live in India too. ( My family members have been RS's through generations, though we are Sikhs by descent. )"

She was not brought to RS by her own free will, her consideration of the philosophy or her own internal motivation. That explains a lot about her attitude.

Finally, her writing style is that of a man." FYI dude... "

It is unlikely Tara is who she claims.

Tara writes
"Unfortunately, the education level of the majority of the Sangat is so low that they buy into the RS BS."

This statement claims basically that the reason Satsangis believe is because they are stupid.

But if Tara is who he/she claims then she/he would know that among the spiritual organizations in India, Sant Mat is disproportionately populated with professionals with advanced degrees, and not like Tara, in finance, but physicians, scientists, psychologists, Professors.

Apparently with all of her/ his claimed contacts he/she hasn't spent any time with them and had no appreciation for the reasons they are in the path.

This is just a huge gap in her story credibility.

Dear Sister Jen,

You said: " just another impure human being with faults like all the rest of us".
That's totally false, Jen.

Baba Gurinder Singh Ji Maharaj is as pure as Satpurush, Anami and The Shabd.
And I am not that spiritually advanced and neither I am allowed to share the experiences.
But, I can tell you with all the honesty and sincerity that HE has shown me the glance of that purity,
which is beyond the explanation of words and there is no doubt left for that.
Life is very short, I wish in the presence of light, your views get corrected on time.
And you get best out of the remaining beautiful years.

Lots of love.

Manjit,

I'm only 26. You're around the same age as my brother and cousins who did seva every weekend in the early 90s with the boys. Whereabouts are you from? When did you leave the path?

I've heard the stories of Baba Ji playing football, I think he even got his 2 boys to play once.

Do you know Osho?

Tara wrote
"I know more than twenty speakers. I've confronted them all about their spiritual " progress " and the standard answer is one of the following cop-outs : 01. " It is all HIS mauj, we can do nothing ! " ( BS ) 02. " We're all struggling souls ! " ( BS x 10X ) 03. " We have to experience it for ourselves ! " ( BS x 50X ) 04. " We must not share our spiritual progress with anyone ! " ( BS x 100X ) 05. " Who are we to judge, how do we know how far we are ? " ( BS x 200X )"

His/her statement that she/he knows these speakers is questionable. No one will share their experiences causally.

But having had friends in the Sangat, close friends, over time, over many years, as we support each other through life's events, these things are shared.

Tara might as all have asked a dozen professionals about their sex lives with their spouses. He/She would have gotten similar answers.

No one normally shares their intimacies spiritual or otherwise (Tom Hanks in Saving Private Ryan, "No, those things I don't share").

Those are personal treasures. And we are given protective shielding by the Master's injunction.

Given Tara's youthful rebellious pentient to hate on all things, she would likely have done so with any actual disclosure.

But in all cases her /his task was to build that for himself /herself within, with diligent focused practice. In only days, weeks and months evidence is there. But without sincere effort ten thousands days is merely one day repeated ten thousand times.

She /he should have submitted her difficulties in meditation to any of those speakers. Then she would have received a wealth she could have used. Wealth both within, and wealth of God advice.

The act of submission is also the act of intense focus and relinquishing our attachments to our own pride and concepts.

Tara was unable to do this. His/her false accusations are the bricks in the psychological wall she built between her objective mind and her own subjective, subconscious self.


@ One Iniatied - gosh that was beautiful your response to Jen.

Go go brother!! I wish I could have that experience soon.😀

Respect and love

The issue of Faqir Chand is only that many see what they want to see, as a creation of their own mind. Much as Tara sees evil in every act of RS charity and benevolence.

It is the mind.

Getting beyond that, to see more objectively, in balance, calmly, is one of the many benefits of Meditation, conducted sincerely, diligently, regularly.


Marko: "But for me i probably fit in Lane 4.0 shabd yoga cause i also admire Manjits exploration of consciousness and that of many approaches which at the end brings mystical wondering feeling."

Thanks and indeed Marko! :)

What Lane is suggesting in that article is the only real coherent model that sufficiently explains the body of evidence. David writes @ http://www.integralworld.net/lane129.html :

"In shabd yoga, for instance, we can see that it has magical, mythical, and rational elements to it, but much depends on precisely how the practitioner herself views the process.....
...Yet, it is undoubtedly true that if one actually believes that the mantra has transcendent vitality (even if this is an unrecognized projection on her part), it helps in concentration. The same holds true if one concludes in a legalistic fashion that their respective guru is a genuine lineage holder and that whatever he gives out is authorized by a long line of previously enlightened mystics. Whether this is actually accurate or not is secondary to the disciple's conviction that it is. In both the magical and mythical understandings of mantras, it is the disciple (and not the words themselves) that is fueling the proceedings. The caveat here, though, is that if the meditator fully realizes that it is her attention (and not necessarily the guru/lineage in question) that is doing the actual “charging” of the mantra then the magical and mythical elements lose both their efficacy and their supposed transformative power. "

I would question this to the extent we know people, even from secular mindsets, can repeat mantras as simple as their own name, and still get absorbed into their "3rd eye" region and experience ecstasy or jhana.

I think it is one's sincerity or intent that provides the real "juice", not the form or conceptual content of our "magical, mythical or rational" beliefs. For example, Richard Rolle the 14th century Christian mystic, was never "initiated by a satguru" and only had christian theology as a conceptual framework for his beliefs. He repeated, devotedly, the Interior prayer of Jesus (or some such, I forget now as I read his book years ago), and due to this intense concentration, got caught up in traditional kundalini & shabd phenomena, becoming essentially a shabd yogi. His life and experiences, recounted in his "The Fire of Love" (available here, though I suspect the book is better: https://archive.org/stream/thefireofloveand00rolluoft/thefireofloveand00rolluoft_djvu.txt ) , I think are an excellent "case history" of somebody who "stumbles" onto "shabd" & "kundalini" to get some sense of what these phenomena are like outside of a well established dogma and cosmological framework. These are NATURAL human phenomena, not given to us by some outside source, but potential properties of our very human existence.

David also writes:

"All this phenomena can be interpreted on varying levels and herein lies the danger, since if one retains a magical/mythical purview then what arises is seen as ontologically real and thus independent of the disciple's own projective arc. Because of this the meditator mistakenly transfers power onto images which in themselves are nothing more than vaporous apparitions. The neophyte gets entrapped within his own hallucinatory world, never realizing that it occupied by phantasms of his own mind."

"Can shabd yoga be successfully practiced by a person who doesn't believe in Indian mystical theology? Yes, just as millions of people worldwide have benefitted from engaging hatha yoga regardless of whether they believe in kundalini, chakras, or Shiva. Understandably some long-time adherents may object to stripping down shabd yoga to its skeletal form since much of the philosophy that has evolved with it may be seen as a necessary component. However, because so much of shabd yoga has been encrusted with mystical musings the very simplicity of the practice has, ironically, been neglected by those who are its strongest advocates."

"To illustrate my thesis compactly, it may be stated that: shabd yoga 1.0 is magical; shabd yoga 2.0 is mythical; shabd yoga 3.0 is rational; and shabd yoga 4.0 is exploratory.

In this regard, shabd yoga, I suggest, may be better off if it could untangle itself from years of theological encrustations. As it is practiced today, there are far too many uninspected assumptions that detract the would-be meditator from the very simplicity of the technique: listening to the inner sound, seeing the inner light, and going within. Hopefully, after moving away from merely magical and mythical worldviews, we can fully take advantage of what our rationality unveils to us and begin anew in our explorations of that which lies beyond what we presently know and experience. "

Annnyways, all this chitter chatter has got me thinking about:

Afterlife Narratives.

We all know the RS narrative, as it has descended to us through Indian mystics and philosophers for millennia, via all sorts of older gnostic myth origins; That this earth is a terrible, evil, dark place, a mistake even, that humanity have been enslaved by a demiurge who controls this realm, and the sole purpose of the entire creation and existence is to "escape" this eternal hell of transmigration by finding the one true, rare & perfect guru who can lead us out of this "trap" to our "true home" where we will live eternally, individualistically, in perpetual bliss and ecstasy, whilst the "suckers" down here on earth continue in their ignorance and suffering.

We really should examine, what precisely is the source of these conceptions, and what are conceptions influenced by? Do they - the various assortment of "altered states of consciousness" and "visionary experiences" via a multitude of means which appeared to reinforce these concepts - perhaps, reflect more accurately the global unconsciousness of the troubled, dark times back then, rather than the ultimate nature of reality itself?

This is easily examined - if we review the more modern expressions of "inner experiences" and other assorted methods of receiving "afterlife narratives" from other-worldly or "paranormal" sources. What are we talking about? NDEs, mediums, channellers, entheogenic users, "past-life regressionist" hypnotists, meditators in various traditions, "alien abductees" etc etc etc. This list goes on.

So, what are these people - with perhaps NDEs being the most scientifically evidential body of evidence, more so than any meditators, for a more likely accurate representation of what happens at the point of death - saying is the ultimate nature of our reality and this cosmology?

Charan Singh - repeating concepts he had read about previously....and this is fact and can traced to older tantric texts (actually, quite a pattern amongst many RS gurus, repeating/parroting concepts they had read or heard from older tantric "kundalini" texts, or from new texts written by anonymous authors, such as Anurag Sagar.....the original version of many of these claims can be traced quite easily, for example Sawan saying a guru can see the inside karmas of a person as if looking through a pickle jar, or some such - I read this subsequently in an old tantric text, and it was clear he was just repeating the claim). One such concept Charan regurgitated from prior sources, was this idea death is as painful as pulling a cloth from a thorny bush, and Kirpal stated death was like facing a million death stings (except for his blessed initiates, of course!). This is the idea the withdrawing the "attention" from our body forcefully at death, despite all it's attachments etc, is extremely painful for those who haven't "practiced" this daily via shabd yoga meditation.

But what do ACTUAL NDErs say?:

I have spent several years obsessively reading their narratives (as well as those of mediums, past-life regressionists, channellers etc), and I can honestly say it seems that when Charan or Kirpal parrot these kind of fear-inducing claims, that there is NO evidence at all to suggest their claims are true, other than what they have read, and their personal visionary experiences within a deeply limiting and defining religious context.

The current narrative shared by almost ALL MODERN sources is that the entire creation, and our participation within it, are CHOICES we make, lovingly and willingly, and that there is no "forced" reincarnation, and that this is all "God's perfect design" for the universe. Basically a message that all is love, there is nothing to worry about, the "purpose" of life is to simple act and live as lovingly, non-judgementally & compassionately as possible, and that there is no "true" religion. This is the overwhelming narrative from multiple sources. Whether that is any more or less literally "true", or "hallucination", than the altered-states which gave rise to the negative, dreary, paranoid cosmologies of the medieval and beyond gnostic/RS cosmology, is up for debate. Personally, I think reality is far more mysterious and mind-bending than even narratives. However, what is undeniable, is that these current narratives are clearly more positive, life-affirming, healthy, optimistic, explanatory of all creation, than the paranoid myth of trying to escape reality via finding the only "Perfect Living Master" of the universe....

Some NDEr comments I found I posted at RSS, addressing the immediate aftermath of the death moment, in contrast to the claims of "pain of a million scorpion stings":

For the multitude of near-death experiencers who know they have left their bodies and received a glimpse of an afterlife, there is no amount of clinical explanation that will ever convince them otherwise. The following are testimonials from experiencers themselves about their conviction that their near-death experience was an out-of-body journey of life after death.

"As the two beings approached us, I could also feel the love flowing from them toward us. The complete joy they showed at seeing the Christ was unmistakable. Seeing these beings and feeling the joy, peace and happiness which swelled up from them made me feel that here was the place of all places, the top realm of all realms. The beings who inhabited it were full of love. This, I was and am convinced, is heaven." (Dr. George Ritchie)

"At 4:13 p.m., I was transported from the physical realm, the realm of the body, to a spiritual realm. I knew I was in another world - a world that is as real as this world is to anyone reading this." (Dr. Gerard Landry)

"Well, I felt myself leave my body. I just floated out of my physical form and I saw them cart my body away to the hospital. I went with it ... I wasn't frightened or anything like that because I was fine; and it was my body that was in trouble." (Peter Sellers)

"I felt as if I were coming loose from my body! While I believed that my body was me, I knew instinctively that if I separated from it, I'd be dead! My soul and body started separating again and continued to separate until I felt a short, sharp pain in my heart, which felt as if something had been torn loose. Then slowly and softly I rose out through the top of my head." (Arthur Yensen)

"I was aware that I, me, was on a journey and had left my body." (Harry Hone)

"I watched my spirit leave my body and release itself from this world of flesh. I could see myself traveling through a tunnel of light that was a freedom it is hard to describe in physical terms." (Sherry Gideon)

"My next memory was quite a scene in the hospital emergency room. It was the most unique experience of my earthly life. Unique, because I was observing my own body in the emergency room and all the activity going on, except that I was not in my body. I was above it all - looking down. I was feeling no pain." (David Goines)

"A massive load of compressed cardboard Carter was loading slipped out of control, slamming him against a steel pole. He remembers a sharp pain, collapsing, being in a black void, then finding himself floating in a prone position twelve feet above his crumpled body. He saw and heard people running around, yelling for an ambulance and saying, "Don't touch him, give him air." His body went from white to blue; there was no breath. The sight filled him with awe. "I'm here, my body is there. How did this happen?" Not understanding how he could suddenly be airborne, Carter Mills attempted to reenter his body." (Carter Mills)

"The decision to leave this world hung suspended in an extended moment of absolute quiet. Passionless, I watched my spirit leave my body as a feeling of "otherness" engulfed me. I felt a strange detachment from my physical body and the life I had created. I was no longer connected to a pitiful, suffering mass of flesh." (Linda Stewart)

"Immediately after the impact from falling forward onto the metal grating, I felt myself floating up, out of my body, and hovering above my body and all the people who were watching it, and who seemed paralyzed by shock and horror at what had happened. I think they pretty much assumed that I was dead." (Dr. Liz Dale's research)

Multi-colored icon. "I remember looking down and seeing my body three-dimensionally for the first time. And it was such a shock, because we never see ourselves except in a one-dimensional mirror reflection, or a photograph." (Dr. Liz Dale's research)

Multi-colored icon. "I was in a barn along with about 8 or 9 other people. It was starting to storm so we had a little tobacco we wanted to finish unloading. Before we got into the cars we had there, [the lightening bolt] came through a board in the side of the barn and got me. I felt myself falling but it didn't hurt. Then I noticed I was above myself looking down at me. My body was actually smoking." (Mr. Thermal)

"On the eighth day of this misery, I seemed to just float right up out of my body. So, I'm looking down at my body lying in the bed still as a corpse, and I said, "Oh, ****** I've died!!" I was basically unnerved by this. But in the next second, I thought to myself, "Hey, if I'm dead, who is thinking these thoughts??" (Skip Church)

"Suddenly I was out of my body, hovering by the ceiling." (Karen Brannon)

"Am I outside myself observing? I see my body and its pain. I look at my feet; they are pale and lifeless. My legs cannot move. My face is white and drawn." (Josiane Antonette)

"I found myself floating on the ceiling over the bed looking down at my unconscious body. I barely had time to realize the glorious strangeness of the situation - that I was me but not in my body - when I was joined by a radiant being bathed in a shimmering white glow." (Beverly Brodsky)

hi Manjit,

Everyone's experience is different though.
I know some experienced great inner experience
within the first week of their practice after being initiated.

by HIS grace, I received a vivid experience
at the time of The Initiation itself.

I think what Hazur really meant is for someone
who doesn't have any bent towards spirituality and starting afresh.

HE still gives me amazing experiences
whenever I attend HIS Satsangs.

I wrote another response to you but Brian's
recent spam settings changes is protecting publishing longer texts.

You've not yet answered my question:
When you claim to be in Astral,
how can you explain which Master belongs to which Level ?

This explains basically whatever you post about others' experience,
and also about the Masters - is just your vague thinking
and doesn't hold a real value.

You could only talk about your own experiences correctly.

Arjuna,

Brother, I am loving your enthusiasm,
If you'd relay all this mind power in your daily meditation,
I am very sure you'll start to receive the Amazing Grace.

Keep your trust on HIM.

Whosoever mentions incorrect things about the current Master,
is actually under illusions and games of mind.

@ One Initiated . My parents were initiated by the Great Master and passed away whilst I was young. My mother always said things that make sense to me now. You remind me her what she said.

I know mind is very hard to beat - Satan isn’t an easy pushover You can’t beat mind with mind! Many have tried to beat Satan by have tried as mind can not be trusted.

Wow I can’t believe I wrote the above- wonder where that came from.

I’m going to give it a huge shot in mediation and Master did help me once and it’s hard to tell you were I was - I was in a coma for 4 days and I recall him visiting me in some state I was in and he said “wake up” and other things. I feel ashamed I doubted him - I just hope he has not put my previous good deeds and thoughts of the Lord into the Red.

Thanks Brother and roll on Wednesday- england take on Croatia on the World Cup semi final! C’mon Englan 😀

Dear Spencer - I find your selective criticisms of Tara's numerous factually correct and CLEARLY well-informed comments predictably rather weak.

But more disconcertingly, I find both your & Jen's insinuation that "Tara" is not a woman, and deceptive about other matters too, mean-spirited and unwarranted.

As somebody who has intimately known Indian women since one gave birth to me, went to school with, worked with & dated what must be hundreds if not thousands of Indian women from both UK & India, to suggest confidently she is not a woman because she uses words like "dude" is utterly preposterous and totally ridiculous...factually speaking, as this is common parlance for modern Indian women from India. I am not sure what image of "Indian women" some posters may have here, no doubt some archaic submissive vision, but it is worth remembering both India & Pakistan have had fearless women leaders during extremely dangerous times, decades if not more before most western countries.

So instead of the irrelevant ad hominems, perhaps address the actual details of what she writes - which are clearly her opinions about FACTS, share them or not, but do you dispute any of the actual facts she shares? Your pedantic & selective criticisms of almost throw-away comments shows just how little you have in terms of an effective rebuttal, imo.

Dear One Initiated - you state: "Everyone's experience is different though.
I know some experienced great inner experience
within the first week of their practice after being initiated.
by HIS grace, I received a vivid experience
at the time of The Initiation itself."

Okay, fair enough. But so what? On the second day I saw Gurinder, I thought all the universe had changed into vibrating energy, and was flowing in and out of him.

I know many, many people who experienced "nothing" at initiation....I was a talker, and loved listening to peoples experiences, and I met hundreds during my time doing seva, visiting beas etc.

We also know complete fakes and charlatans can give experience of "light and sound" at initiation, as in that video I posted the other day, Holy Hell?

We also know that light and sound can be experienced in a scientific setting, like Dave outlines in his "Kirpal Statistic" work, where he "initiated" his pupils into sound and light.

Point is, Kirpal didn't say it may or it may not happen, he claimed that it WOULD happen, and that this was proof he was the "real" spiritual "satguru", and not Jagat or Charan.

That seems like a fairly reasonable, "Proof based" claim to make? What say you?

You write: "When you claim to be in Astral,
how can you explain which Master belongs to which Level ?"

No, no, no. You appear to be mistaken, quite profoundly so. It is YOU who "claims" I am "in Astral", not me?

I was flaffing around the astral before I reached my teens, really haven't been interested in it for more than 10 years. I suggest you have misunderstood what I have said?

And who is claiming which "Master belongs to which level"?

Hi Manjit
You wrote
"Well, you are right on ONE point - they DID want someone to tell them how they think.....BUT they DID get it in "Sant Mat", and that is evidenced every day in every way. To deny or not notice that takes staggering levels of self-deceit and self-delusion, imo. It really is without question!"

Sant Mat teaches in every book and satsang that we must find our answers for ourself, within, from our own journey. Sant Mat only offers the method and some guideposts to look for.

Your view is reflective of the misconception I was writing about. You are falsely accusing Sant Mat of your own misunderstanding born of your own desire to claim ultimate truth just by listening to a teacher and closing your eyes for a moment.

Sant Mat doesn't hand that to you on a buscuit tray. You have to go within and journey the path.

Apparently you and some of the ex-ers missed that class. But open any Sant Mat book and it's right there in print.

You wrote
"What actually happened to some of them is, they started to realise that what "Sant Mat" (I am not fond of all neologisms!) was telling them to think, was actually utterly ridiculous and related in no way whatsoever to reality itself! So they searched for an alternative authority figure to guide them...."

See above. They realized it was rediculous to expect someone to hand them any truth they could believe without evidence. That's correct. But guess what? That's what Sant Mat was teaching all along! And because they misunderstood they failed to get that evidence on their own, and were unwilling to own that failure. Their pride forced them to say "that's your fault!" instead of own the fact that this was their own misunderstooding, born of the passion for a quick and final ultimate answer.

And every day they tried to meditate they expected the gates of heaven to open for them and were disappointed. Rinse and repeat, year in year out, decade after decade, zip, zero, nada.

The didn't let go of that, and how can you jump into the ocean holding onto the handrail on shore? Failure assured. But don't claim there is no ocean, or you aren't at the beach. The ocean is there, the beach is just a short walk from your room. Instructions are on the door. But you do have to take that walk.

But if you honestly look at the Sangat with an open mind, an open heart, you can see many, many swinming in that ocean having the time of their lives.

And if you listen carefully, you will hear the laughter of angels.

But instead the e - ers went looking for another guru. Classic case of projection.

The only truth you will accept is the truth you discover for yourself, and experience for yourself. Unfortunately that requires putting your ego aside for a while.

Until then you are just moving through belief systems. And so long as you blame the system instead of simply refining your own practice, you are just building the wall between your thinking conceptual brain and the rest of your own subconscious mind.

You are adding layers of mind, wrappings of mind, instead of gently peeling away those layers to expose the blinding light within.

Sorry to be so blunt, Manjit. The path is much much simpler than you depict.

Now some folks want to blame the next guru because he gave them false hope in the possibility of finding ultimate truth. Just another attractive and flattering wrapping.

Waste of time.

Spencer: "Sorry to be so blunt, Manjit. The path is much much simpler than you depict."

Indeed it is. Evidentially, it is believe whatever you want, and that's the "truth", even if contradicted by reality.

These are all convenient, vague, wishy-washy arguments which say absolutely nothing about the path, practice, or guru.

We've had decades of reading the clear, unambiguous claims in the books which led the vast majority of people to this religion. A clear focus on concepts, theology, dogma, duality etc of all sorts. And now it's the fault of all the believers of this nonsense, for believing it? Of course it is in some way! But in another, it is also a fault of those who peddle these concepts, like in Julian Johnson's Path of the Masters.

Again, lots of stories and claims etc. Lots of vague general sentimentality, but nothing to suggest RSSB & Gurinder are any more a viable, effective "spiritual path" than other "guru" or path out there. And that's being quite charitable, I find.

That's not so complicated, is it Spencer?


Re. comas and visits from radiant RS masters (I hope you have fully recovered Arjuna!), I remember a story of another friend of mine, who in a coma, was apparently visited by two different gurus, Gurinder (or Charan?) and a guru who was fatally shot in London UK, Guru Darshan Das. Two gurus, two different paths, yet both radiant forms came to visit him!

He recovered fully, and considered it evidence of both their divinities, despite their contradictory paths and teachings. (it was his mother who had the vision, if I recall)

@ Manjit - I recovered but that was 2 decades ago.

I can only tel you what I experienced that is all.

Beautiful post Manjit. But this quote of Charan.....Charan regurgitated from prior sources, was this idea death is as painful as pulling a cloth from a thorny bush......
....me: i think heard him say this phrase for how to approach mind and meditation that like you dont go and pull cloth from thorns at once but easily and steadily. Like with mind small and firm steps...but thats my memory

Manjit dud you get my mails?



Again, lots of stories and claims etc. Lots of vague general sentimentality, but nothing to suggest RSSB & Gurinder are any more a viable, effective "spiritual path" than other "guru" or path out there. And that's being quite charitable, I find.


Who's suggesting they are? Certainly not Gurinder. As Ishwar Puri
memorably states any path that leads you inward is valid.

@Marko, .....I agree that Charan’s retelling Master’s teaching that gently removing a cheese cloth from a thorny bush, one thorn at a time, instead of giving it one big yank, will preseve the Cloth, and is compared to Surat Shabd Meditation removing the soul from the mind, one knot at a time, while withdrawing from the lower body to the Third Eye will preserve the soul.

That had, and still has, a great impact on me, and is why I still choose to meditate the same old way. Even after 30 years of doing the same thing, I believe I am still making new progress, and untying another knot almost daily. Also, the Meditation plows the field of plugged Chakras, opening up the channels for my unknotted soul to be much more active during Lucid dreaming while my physical body is resting, or sleeping. Soamibagh’s last Guru, Babuji, said that our soul, during our awakeful state, resides at the Heart Chakra, not at the Third Eye. So, Kirpal Singh was correct by saying we must rise above body consciousness in order to experience Shabd, which DOES reside at the Third Eye, never dropping below to Pind, i.e. lower body.

Now, if any brave seeker dares to force their knotted mind/soul out of their body with one big yank, as in the example of the Cheese Cloth stuck on the thorns, and are afraid to take Manjit's challege to do what he has tried, I can tell you another way to fo it with out drugs, or Plants.

Try hyperventilating, using Yogannanda’s Kriya Yogo So Ham Techique, but expedite the techique by rapid Pranayama until you start getting real dizzy and seeing lots of stars and hearing the buzzing. Then, as you are having trouble to remain standing, quickly drop in to the Fetal Crouching Bajun position we all were given at Initiation, and close your mouth tight, eyes closed, thumbs in both ears, and BLOW against your closed hands as hard as you can with out letting any Air escape, until you POP out of your body thru your Crown Chakra in the top of your head. You will fall to the ground or floor as a limp puppet doll, and your soul will be free from your mind and body.

How long you will stay out, and how far you will travel, or what you will see, will obviously be your own subjective experience,

But if you try it, be prepared for one heck of a Migrain Headache that may last for days!!

So, removing one knot at a time is much less painful and since we have Eternity to be successful, what’s the hurry? I hate pain.

@Manjit,.........I have an honest question for you. Being the honest truthfult man that you are, I expect your honest truthful answer.

Your answer must not include every thing you know now, that you have learned since you were of age to be initiated by Gurinder Singh in to RSSB.

I ask that you Astral Project back to age 25. You only know what you kew up to then.

My honest, unloaded question to you is,.....

If you had NEVER heard of David Lane, or had ever once stumbled on to his RSS Anti Guru Studies Forum, would you have again applied for Initiation in to RSSB from Gurinder Singh?

I belive that it was David Lane that met you at your Cross Road of accepting, or rejecting The Path of The Masters and altered your direction at your young age, and is why you now still are unable to accept that David Lane has returned to the Path that he convinced you and thousands of ofhers to reject, after Charan’ s Bulldozer Chain has tightened around his neck and yanked him back to the Path.

You should ask him in good faith, ..”..Dr. Lane, if you really love me, and have real honest concern for my soul, do you still advise me to steer clear of The Path of the Masters and to never seek to be initiated by ANY Sant Mat Master, including Gurinder Singh?

Or, do you advise me to continue on the Path of Plant and Drug experimentation to Liberation?”

Cherrs,
Jim

Hi Dungeness, you ask "Who's suggesting they are? Certainly not Gurinder. As Ishwar Puri
memorably states any path that leads you inward is valid."

Errrm, all the dozens of official RS books, and all previous gurus, and thousands of satsangs & tapes etc? Have you ever read the Sar Bachan? Have you ever heard a Gurinder satsang, and understood it, in punjabi? Did you notice the vast discrepancy in message between that and his English output? How do you reconcile the differences?

I understand that Gurinder and Ishwar may realise, in the 21st century in the western world, that nobody will buy these elitist claims of dogma anymore, and are savvy enough to adapt them to modern sensibilities, but that doesn't excuse the previous century of dogma, or actually explain away the dissonance, does it? Have I not made myself clear enough? Was it not me myself who suggested that what Gurinder says is dissonant with the ideology and dogma stated repeatedly & clearly in the books (and this is what draws the vast majority of satsangis to this path), and that this dissonance has not been sufficiently explained or even addressed, and that it is left to anonymous online posters to justify these inconsistencies & incoherencies, rather than some sort of official statement or book?

Hi Marko - you ask "Manjit dud you get my mails?" I did get one email, but don't call me dud!! :) Response sent....

you write: "But this quote of Charan.....Charan regurgitated from prior sources, was this idea death is as painful as pulling a cloth from a thorny bush......
....me: i think heard him say this phrase for how to approach mind and meditation that like you dont go and pull cloth from thorns at once but easily and steadily. Like with mind small and firm steps...but thats my memory"

You may well be right, Marko, I also go from a very old and faulty memory! We do know, for sure, Charan wrote this, which fully supports the exact meaning of that post I wrote:

“Q. What about the scorpions?

A. He has given an example to show that you should practice dying while living, because it is easier than the death you have to face at the time of death. At the time of death, the pain that you face is just like the pain of scorpions’ stings so keep that in mind. In order to avoid that pain, now bear this pain of meditation. He has just given this as an example to show generally how much pain we have to go through at the time of death. He says in order to avoid that, a little discomfort now is much better. So we shouldn’t mind this discomfort or pain”

Excerpt From: Maharaj Charan Singh. “Die to Live.

Hi Manjit

You wrote

"So instead of the irrelevant ad hominems, perhaps address the actual details of what she writes - which are clearly her opinions about FACTS, share them or not, but do you dispute any of the actual facts she shares? Your pedantic & selective criticisms of almost throw-away comments shows just how little you have in terms of an effective rebuttal, imo."

Apparently you missed some of the details of what I wrote. Here are four :

1.The fact that Tara accused Baba Ji of lying without listing those.

2.The fact that Tara accused Baba Ji of not being in the decision making role to keep Dera, and all the new centers, free. And then later claiming he makes all the key decisions. You can't have it both ways.

3.Ignoring the work of Ranbaxy in helping to save over a million lives as the major supplier to the Clinton Initiative at or below cost, stretching their company's capacity, drawing the ire of investors to the Singh brothers and costing them their careers.

4. Wrongly depicting belief in RS as the result of an uneducated Sangat, ignoring all the surgeons, physicians, scientists and other professionals throughout the world who are devotees from the highest levels of educated discernment. And it is these who make up the main share of donations, to help their brothers and sisters.

Ignoring most of that and depicting the rest as unbridled greed.
False. Tara's projections.


You wrote

"Again, lots of stories and claims etc. Lots of vague general sentimentality, but nothing to suggest RSSB & Gurinder are any more a viable, effective "spiritual path" than other "guru" or path out there. And that's being quite charitable, I find."

" Nothing to suggest... "
That sounds like a literature review, not practice.

No one found ultimate truth, including Satsangis, through reading books.

It is all a matter of practice. And that means following the formula, including the vows.

Literature review ad nauseum will never get you there. Without personal experience in this or any other field, your judgment will be based on limited information and therefore naive.

But any number of meditation practices will indeed produce good results if you actually follow the instructions. And only then, having those, will you be in a position to discriminate which is actually a better path; the path to take you to your next step.

Had you or Brian or Tera actually generated the spiritual experiences of returning through the regions repeatedly (as many Satsangis have done and are doing daily) under your control, you would be in a better position to judge the reality of that experience.

You could say it was your mind, or wishful thinking or anything you want to label it with.

But not having done the work, you have no objective basis to such claims.

Had you simply befriended any advanced Satsangis, at some point they would have shared their own experiences with you privately when they saw your struggles. That is the natural result of the intimacy of friendship with a Satsangi who cannot help themselves when it comes to helping their friend.

That you, Brian and Tara never experienced such friendships is truly tragic. But that is a tragedy that can be erased, dismissed as a teaching moment, simply by trying to connect in a real and legitimate way, not as a teacher, but a student, with your Satsangi brothers and sisters.


Jim asks "If you had NEVER heard of David Lane, or had ever once stumbled on to his RSS Anti Guru Studies Forum, would you have again applied for Initiation in to RSSB from Gurinder Singh?"

Well, Jim, this is a somewhat silly question in the vein of "if your mother was your aunt".....

You see, it isn't so much David Lane was there, or Chand was there......or even RSSB was there. All these things have always been available if we had the sincerity, honesty, integrity etc to face these issues head on.

When I was a young teen, way before I started following RSSB properly, written to Gurinder etc, I was ALREADY questioning my "inner visions" and experiences, contrasting them to what others experienced etc. I was always hyper-critical and looking for "real explanation". I have many stories about this.

Following Gurinder, there was always doubts and inconsistencies with the teachings, peoples experiences, Gurinder's behaviour etc.

In other words, no, I don't think I would have got initiated if I didn't come across David Lane because my destiny was not to settle for stories and fantasticial narratives, but to investigate the nature of reality more impartially and without bias and dogma loaded on my back.

Of course, some may think calmly pointing out the obvious is very heavy load on my back, and that I will "have to eat shit, and eat it soon", but I have no time or interest in the delusions and projections of others.

I think an issue you have to deal with, is the cult of personalities, out-sourcing responsibility to authority-figures, reclaiming your own destiny from the whims of others, perhaps?

That is why your recent experience with Gurinder was such a shock to your system; you had imagined him to be something other than he was.

Time to put away our fantasies & reclaim our own sovereignty - who cares what David Lane believes now or in the past? (even if he CLEARLY states in private email, or by his ongoing actions online, that nothing has changed!)

PS - your pranayamic hyperventilation (I have studied numerous breath-induced altered state practices, such as "Holotropic Breathwork", and even practiced some myself.....actually, the practice you write, extremely simplistic and unsophisticated as it is, was a popular kid's "trick" in the UK that went viral many decades ago, and it was called doing a "supernova" for those kids who wanted to get "high").......To compare the effects of that to the challenge I presented is fool-hardy; if, as is most likely, you will not experience much of any compelling spiritual note, the person may go away thinking they have passed the challenge and proven materialism and atheism is all there is.

There is no chance that will occur with 7g shrooms in a darkened room. Fail-safe. Or so my challenge goes.

But again, this is based on personal experience and quite a bit of knowledge of the subject. It takes some wisdom to realise the speculation of those who are ignorant - thoroughly so - of a subject, is entirely worthless :)

Manjit i did not call you dud. I wrote "did" you get my emails and is a typo i dont even know what dud means. I see the message now and see dud there..but sorry if i made a mistake.

Marko: "anjit i did not call you dud. I wrote "did" you get my emails and is a typo i dont even know what dud means. I see the message now and see dud there..but sorry if i made a mistake."

Hehe, no need to take it so seriously Marko! I know you meant "did", and I was just teasing you on your typo :)

Definition of dud:

"a thing that fails to work properly or is otherwise unsatisfactory or worthless."

Actually, you may have been right to call me that in the first place, even if by mistake :) Cheers!

Hahaha Manjit....yes i saw smiley now but before i translate everything to my language....uff.....but otherwise yeah in reality i am a joking guy as my nature and now when i see definition of dud... is really crazy and funny...haha..cheers

Things I have heard Gurinder say (where does that leave our precious dogma?):

1) There is no "kal".

2) There are no "inner regions"

3) The real aim of meditation is to get to that point where you just give up.

4) I do not come at death to take you.

5) There is no 4 lives promise, these are concepts.

6) All paths are equally valid (including specific kundalini yoga teachers)

7) Spirituality is not in my pants (that's a personal favourite, I may explain it another time, just couldn't resist posting it here - he really did say exactly these words!! :)

777, what are you talking about? 20 years? No, it is has been four years since Tara last left comments on this blog in 2014. Get your facts straight.

hi Manjit,

Thanks for sharing your inner experiences.

So would you like to share where do you find yourself right now ?
Do you mean to say that you are in Causal or beyond right now ?
I highly doubt that. you are your own judge.

"And who is claiming which Master belongs to which level?"
You are, whenever you are insulting the Master Gurinder Singh Ji.

Aren't we already eating whenever we are insulting HIM ?
OR possibly you don't even realise that you are insulting HIM ?

Had you been under The Guidance,
Given you having such experiences at the tender age,
You'd have progressed tremendously.
But exactly at that time you were greatly tricked by the mind.
And the resultant is in front of all of us.

Jim asked a really valid question to you,
and that situation you could not assume in the first place,
and actually your answer could never be a correct one,
because it's not possible to revert the time and had you experience
the other situation which Jim proposed.

Just as what I asked earlier,
what if one fine day, you will realise
that all you've posted against the current Master,
happens to be false and actually your own misunderstanding,
under the influence of mind,
how easily would you be able to onboard and correct yourself ?

Wish you a lot of wisdom,
may you move in the correct directions sooner,
and get out of the grip of the mind.

@ Manjit - if One Initiated has mentored me to be a better man. He has done more than all the negative quotes which I have written or others and he has earned something far more precious in return.

All this debate is useless as Spencer said it has to be proven by oneself.

I respect you but can only say mind cannot know or touch something which is of another dimension or essence. So why try

Ps the mind is a construct yes of ones own making. Don’t take yourself too seriously - unless you or anyone can show me using mind what is God or not I will pay no head...

Also - scientists are now saying black holes may not exist - going of on a tangent - so when the finest minds know little - or can know little why debate with intellectual crap trap. Faith is stronger for better or worse - I believe if one has that God Himself will come to the rescue - even if one has been chasing shadows. Faith!!!

All the very best

Hi Arjuna! - it's genuinely beautiful you have found some support here on this forum, on your journey :)

However, your critique of using "mind" to "know or touch" the other "dimensions" may be a bit out of place on the comments section of a blog (one of the only 2 places worldwide where critical VIEWS of RS can be shared.......there are thousands of satsangs where one can go to mindlessly reinforce one's beliefs, no?), in a thread entitled "Devastating criticism of.....", where ALL we have are words & concepts to communicate with each other?

What I post is, clearly, not intended for everyone.....it has been clear for a while we have different interests or approaches to this subject....luckily, there is plenty of room in virtual space for those of differing views & interests :)

Hi One Initiated, you ask "Do you mean to say that you are in Causal or beyond right now ?
I highly doubt that. you are your own judge."

Actually, as Jim hinted at the other day and I have said numerous times on the RSS forum - and, to the best of my understanding also what Gurinder hints at, remarkably! (:-) - I believe we are multi-dimensional beings who are functioning on ALL THREE "levels of being simultaneously, causal & astral consciousness is manifest within our waking consciousness state. If you mean, more accurately, what states of consciousness have I been able to isolate and experience "within themself", I have experienced astral (dream), causal (full awareness during the deep sleep cycle, known as seeing "rigpa" or the "clear light" in tibetan buddhist tantras of sleep & dreaming) in full, glorious, hyper-alert-conscious states on repeated occassions decades ago. Through a variety of materialistic, dualistic "practices", I can probably re-enter these "states" of ISOLATED consciousness, quite easily within a few weeks.

A realisation "beyond" all this dualistic, ecstatic "tripping", is that all 3 states are present in our waking consciousness.

Beyond lies the "impersonal".

But, as Gurinder repeatedly hints at, it is a conceptual fantasy to imagine these parts of the spectrum of our conscious existence as if some sort of geo-spatial objective "regions" where ghosties and the such lurk.

Regarding your "doubt" of "where I am", who cares, really? ;)

You write: "Jim asked a really valid question to you, and that situation you could not assume in the first place, and actually your answer could never be a correct one, because it's not possible to revert the time and had you experience"

Jim asked "a really valid question", and within the same sentence, "your answer could never be the correct one, because it's not possible to revert....."

?! :-/ Whilst there is obvious confusion in this sentence, your appeal to Jim is noted :)

You ask "Just as what I asked earlier, what if one fine day, you will realise that all you've posted against the current Master, happens to be false and actually your own misunderstanding,
under the influence of mind, how easily would you be able to onboard and correct yourself ?"

Correct myself? Extremely easily, I have done it numerous times in the past. You appear to imagine my ego is inextricably connected and i-dentified with the concepts I present here?

The point is, regardless of what I think or feel at some future point, is there any actual valid & coherent response to any of the numerous questions I have asked in this and other threads? That is more interesting - and measurable in a public space like this - than what fantasy I may hold tomorrow! Are the comments I made valid today?

You see, all this defence of RSSB and Gurinder is profoundly generic - it can be applied as a mindless defence of ANY and EVERY eastern guru, cult and religion. Honestly, can nobody notice how bland and vacuous the defences have been, simple examples of generic apologist behaviour we have witnessed thousands of times from followers of thousands of gurus and religions?!

Arjuna - PS, you wrote " I believe if one has that God Himself will come to the rescue - even if one has been chasing shadows. Faith!!!"

Yes! I quite agree and beautifully stated!

Manjit

@ Manjit,.....your Debating talent and Easten Metaphysicsl knowledge is teally wasted hete and at RSS, if what you day is teally true, i.e. that you have no mote inyetest in the zsa t Mat Path, what do ever, or Masters in general.

I challenged you in the padt, to bring your Debating skills and knowledge to Allan Chronshaw, who almost daily is in some one’s face to belittle their religion and fsith, no matter what they happen to be in to. I invited Chris Crooks over there, and he went a few rounds with Allan, until he saw what I see, and gave up.

I don’t only stir up Sant Mat Pots or Exer forums. I have been debating Allan for a dozen years or more, off and on. He not only vlsims his soul libed as the avtual Brother of Jesus, i.e. James the Just, but he also libed as Thomas Payne, and it was he, who aothored the Constitution of the United States, not Thomas Jefferson, as our History Books teach. He also days he was the Author of the original Gospel of the New Testament.

You say you read the Christian Bible in a couple of weeks as I recall, long ago, and claim to be Adept in the Bible.

The following is just one single Tant regarding Sant Mat that Allan emailed me. I have an Archeive of them. He archives his Rants in his zlibrary, but deltes my side of the ecvhsnge begote he puts them in his Library, so making him self the Authority.

“Shalom Jim:

I have copied your reply and questions out of your post into the Library into the below so I could answer it in the forums.

From my understanding, the objective of Sant Mat is to free the person from the wheel of reincarnation -- which of course is one of the objectives of Buddhism. Through meditation and being initiated by a Sant Mat master, the person is supposed to overcome the wheel of rebirth. In view of the fact that you have access to the Library, I have made many posts which reference the Seven Kingdoms and the fact that the lower three Kingdoms are an integral part of the Soul that are acting holographically independent of the Soul -- one of my latest posts on this subject is entitled Misconceptions Pertaining To Gnostics, Scriptures and Matter, and the fact that man as a transient fourth kingdom is as the breath of the Soul that enters the body which is comprised of the lower three kingdoms, in order to transform those lower kingdoms in order to both restore them to their higher spiritual opposites which are the upper three spiritual kingdoms, which will have the effect of bringing about the necessary transformative Wholeness. Thus, the objectives of Sant Mat and the Eastern Religions that embrace the concept of the actual soul entering into the body and enduring the cycles of reincarnation, is totally foreign to the original teachings of TheWay which is Gnostic. And while I have attempted to explain to you on virtually countless occasions that a purely Gnostic religion with the objective to Know Thyself -- and through the Knowledge of Self, only then is the seeker/disciple able to truly come to Know God -- has very little in common with the Eastern teachings which are attempting to escape the wheel of rebirth.

At it's core, the original teachings of TheWay would totally reject the doctrine of reincarnation as presented by the Eastern Religions. As I have attempted to explain countless times, in the same way that each Soul is as a single Neuron in the Mind of God, holographically each life that the Soul lives is as a single neuron in the Mind of the Soul which I often portray as the Soul Mind-Matrix -- and because what we call Time is a dimension of Mind, all the personalities that the Soul has lived as continue to live and dwell within the Mind of the Soul-Self -- which is our True-Self. Therefore, as explained throughout my writings -- as confirmed in the Gospel of Thomas -- the very Gnostic Original teachings of TheWay have virtually nothing in common with either Saint Mat or the Eastern religions which believe that the soul jumps from body to body until it escapes the wheel of rebirth.

It offends you that I question the ability of organic man to comprehend the higher reality of the Soul -- but, this is an important reality set forth in the Gospel teachings as explored in such subheadings in my writings as What Difference Does It Make. And throughout my writings I demonstrate that the limitations of the organic mind of man to comprehend his own higher Soul-Reality and the Inner Kingdom, is through the transformation of the lower three kingdoms and the reunification or marriage of opposites of the lower earthly and the upper heavenly/spiritual kingdoms within the individual. And while such things as meditation and chants and various Eastern rituals are good, they do not transform the lower three kingdoms which must be evolved to be reunited with the upper three kingdoms. As a soul-personality, I have no objective to escape the wheel of reincarnation -- and in view of the fact that I am very much as a single neuron in the Soul-Mind, I don't believe in reincarnation in the manner that Eastern religions do. So, once again, the two religious paths have nothing in common -- and I reject the basis of thinking upon which the Eastern Religions are based. And if we pose the question: Do I believe that Enlightened sources exist in the Eastern realm of religions? Yes, I do -- but the dogma that is promoted is little more than the "milk" of the Eastern Teachings intended for entry-level students. The mental-limitations imposed upon organic man is as real in the East, as it is in the West -- as explained at What Difference Does It Make. Which means that the whole dogma of escaping the wheel of reincarnation, is nothing more than Eastern "milk" designed for "babes" in Eastern teachings. That this "milk" is delivered to people by the equivalent of Eastern Billy Grahams, is the inescapable reality of the development of man where he must have teachers at every level of his slow advancement.

The Astral realms are merely the non-physical realms that surround the physical. In the same way that you have levels of ætheric bodies that surround your physical body -- so too does the earth have various ætheric realms that surround the physical. But thee ætheric realms are not the same as the Inward Journey to the Soul and the Kingdom. When a person passe from this life they find themselves in the ætheric where they can view their dead physical body. In the various ætheric levels there exist both earth-bound realms for people who are stuck and attached to the physical, as well as levels of instruction for those who must learn and accomplish what they failed to do while in physical life. These soul-personalities who pass from this life without achieving the next stage of birth, do not reincarnate or jump to a new body -- but rather, they must develop and be prepared to be reunited to their Soul and True-Self. That some people are able to gain some insight into this reality through the Near Death Experience where they are drawn into the presence of their Higher Soul-Self that is a Being of Light ( http://BeingOfLight.com ) -- or, others who are drawn into the astral and encounter relatives and people they have known while in the body -- is merely an insight into the possibility of life after the death of the body. That someone is able to initiate an Out Of Body Experience (OOBE) and jump into the astral realms, has absolutely nothing in common with the Inward Journy to the Soul -- and the Ultimate Journey to connect with the Logos.

I believe I have provided the basis of the majority of your questions regarding the differences between Sant Mat and the Original teachings of TheWay which are the embodiment of Pure Gnosticism and the Revelation of the Divine Manna of the Kingdom. The fact that you have great difficulty in comprehending the differences, is because you have embraced the non-Gnostic teachings of Sant Mat and other such paths. With respect to women: This is covered in The Esoteric Feminine Mystique which is part of http://SoulSelf.org .

With respect to the Key of Knowledge ( http://KeyOfKnowledge.org ): Why the scriptures are written as allegories that must be turned within one's own mind and being, is thoroughly explored in the article An Inconvenient Truth ( http://Ebionite.com/AnInconvenientTruth.htm ). And when rightly understood, the scriptures are a text book that prepares the mind of the seeker to escape what is portrayed as the "outer darkness" of mind and being -- which parallels the shadow-world of illusions of Plato's Cave ( http://OuterDarkness.Nazirene.org ). You will find the answers to your question fully explored in these links.

Allan ”

Let me know when you are looking for a REAL Intelectual debate? Allan is only a High School Grad., No College, and is a Viet Nam Vet. who was an Atheist all during the time he was serving in Viet Nam and Thailand. Or, Brian, or Lane might consider having a turn with Allan. He never shies away from any new comers looking to derail him.

Cheers,
Jim Sutherland


I got timed out, so excuse the Typos. Just imagine between the lines, and you’ll understand what I said. Thanks.

Jim


Errrm, all the dozens of official RS books, and all previous gurus, and thousands of satsangs & tapes etc? Have you ever read the Sar Bachan? Have you ever heard a Gurinder satsang, and understood it, in punjabi? Did you notice the vast discrepancy in message between that and his English output? How do you reconcile the differences?

I plea abject ignorance of Punjabi but I have a strong
inkling any elitist claims were either taken out of context
or misunderstood.

Ishwar Puri, for instance repeats the message
Great Master gave him at the age of nine:

"His opening words at initiation were, "What I
have got is from my Master. It has worked for me.
I am giving to you this initiation and hope it will
work for you. If you find something better than this
at any time, go and take it. You do not need any more
permission. I give you permission in advance. If you
find something better, take it! Please do me one favor,
that when you get something better, you come back and
tell me so I will also go and take it." The Great Master's
words, I took them very seriously and I said it was my
duty now to search for something better."

I have no doubt that Great Master's words wouldn't generate
dissonance with true mystics of any lineage. How could it?
Mysticism doesn't promote elitism, or try to induce a cult-
like fear.

Bottom line. In the end, words don't matter. They're never
a substitue for actual experience in mysticism. They may
vary in different eras or contexts. But that's done for
maximum familiarity or to bridge gaps in understanding.

How would you encapsulate transcendent reality in a few
words or detail it in a book or in many volumes? It may
be best to just tell a simple story or cook up a metaphor
or two depending on the audience. In either case it
remains a hint only.

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