Devastating criticism of Gurinder Singh Dhillon by a RSSB insider

Gurinder Singh Dhillon is the current guru of Radha Soami Satsang Beas (RSSB), a spiritual organization headquartered in India that has a worldwide reach.

In this post I'm sharing 27,000 words worth of comments left on this blog by "Tara," a woman who had an up close and personal view of both Gurinder Singh (photo below) and the RSSB organization prior to her becoming disillusioned by what she saw, which led to her leaving the RSSB fold.

What you'll read below is an extensive sampling of the comments left by "Tara"from 2010 to 2014. I selected comments that struck me as being particularly interesting, either because they related to Gurinder Singh's financial dealings, RSSB goings-on, or Tara's personal doubts about the validity of the RSSB teachings.

I figured this would be an appropriate time to share Tara's comments, since tomorrow is Independence Day in the United States, and in many of her comments, Tara celebrated her newfound independence from religious dogmatism and hypocrisy. 

Since Typepad, my blogging service, organizes searchable comments by date, with the most recent appearing first, for convenience this is how I've ordered Tara's comments. In other words, the comments Tara left in 2014 appear first, and those she left in 2010 appear last.

Click on the continuation link to read more than the first few comments. I had to insert that break because otherwise this very lengthy post would make it difficult to find my previous posts.

I realize that readers of this blog who aren't familiar with Radha Soami Satsang Beas will find much of what Tara talks about somewhat difficult to understand. Here's explanations of some of her abbreviations: GSD or GS means Gurinder Singh Dhillon, the RSSB guru; RS refers to Radha Soami, shorthand for either Radha Soami Satsang Beas (RSSB), or the Radha Soami philosophy.

What impressed me as I read through Tara’s comments is how intelligent, witty, and well-informed she is. And I rarely came across a typo, or even a poorly-worded sentence. She writes clearly, passionately, honestly. I regret that, most likely, I’ll never be able to meet her.

I've copied in the comments, which are separated by a dashed line, exactly as Tara wrote them -- aside from a few instances when I noted a repeated word, such as "the the." I've added paragraph breaks to make the comments more readable, since Typepad eliminates paragraph breaks in the comment search feature that bloggers like me are able to make use of .

It's really remarkable how much time and effort Tara put into these comments. In one of her comments, she says that a therapist advised her to write about her deconversion from the Sant Mat philosophy espoused by RSSB, since, as Tara repeatedly notes, it was quite difficult for her to leave an organization that her family had been part of for four generations.

I applaud Tara for her courage to speak her mind in these comments, and to disclose what amounts to devastating criticisms of both Gurinder Singh Dhillon and the RSSB organization that he heads up. 

Lastly, if you're not familiar with the Radha Soami Satsang Beas teachings, a blog post of mine about how Gurinder Singh has been altering them would help you better understand many of her comments: "Has Gurinder Singh revised Sant Mat to v. 3.0?"

Now, on to the comments from "Tara"...
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Avi, GSD [Gurinder Singh Dhillon] is constantly on the move and a private jet is always at his disposal. IMO, how does it really matter whether it is from Religare or whether it is a private charter from another aviation firm. The important thing to find out is whether these trips are billed to Beas.

 

Gurinder has become astoundingly wealthy over the last few years and I believe that he can afford his own private travel. In this day and age and in GSD's current position, it would be normal to want to save travel time as RSSB's operations are global. Cyclically, it would probably take two years if GSD keeps his Satsang schedule and visits each center. I don't really think private travel in such a big deal !

 

What concerns me more, is the entire shift in ethos, the making of a quasi-religion, Dera's profitability driven motives, the creation of unimaginable personal wealth through dubious means and the total absence of humanitarian initiatives. ( Sant Mat demystified ? )

 

Oh ! I remember Charan [Singh, the previous guru] sitting in the co-driver's seat of his ivory Fiat, wearing his Ray Ban aviators, arm resting on the window and the wind blowing through his beard. A cloud of dust left in the tracks of the car at the Beas river bank ... through which a cacophony of voices would come alive, Seva interrupted.

 

Men and women would rush to catch a glimpse of him and he would oblige with a smile, hands folded, a " Radha Soami " ... I think I'm still lost, somewhere, in these childhood moments, where I do believe that Charan's love for the Sangat, despite the loopholes in the philosophy, was genuinely present and felt by all.

 

I've been trying to get in touch with the Babani family ( Mr. Babani was Charan's secretary ) to find out what really went wrong after Charan passed. There was a dispute between Dera and Babani's kin. It had to do with a property that was willed to Dera, or so Dera says. By some accounts, Babani died an unhappy man. It will be interesting to hear what the Babani family members have to say.

 

It is futile to compare Charan's and Gurinder's expenditures or any similarities, including the Gurudom. Charan's followers, the old school, are either off the path, confused or are reluctantly on the fringes of ( RS ) Sant Mat ... My own, rather hardcore RS family, is too proud to admit that it has all gone astray.

 

The love is gone, and with it, all traces of spirituality that the mission possessed. The fool from the old school thinks that Gurinder is carrying out Charan's will.

 

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Gaz, I live in India, but I go to the UK and US quite often. I've got extended family who is very close to Baba Ji [Gurinder Singh] and equally close to most people in his first circle. That is how I get to learn about ' the latest ' though it has now become tiring and boring. But, GSD's a great administrator, you got to hand him that.

 

Well, the mildly interesting thing is that even the government / government departments in India are weary of questioning holy men. Somewhere in their collective psyche they do not want to ' mess ' with Guru's. They come cracking down on innocent men and treat them like dirt, but even if they have a sack of mud on a Guru, you'll rarely see them do too much about it.

 

In the case of RSSB, their PR is slick with the bureaucracy, so no one can touch them. I think GSD in particular, has established a good equation with the red tape ... just like is the case with the other corporate giants and power houses of the country. In that sense, I do not see the difference between RSSB's practices and the practices of other corporations, the only difference being that RSSB is seldom questioned and can get away with much more undemocratically, and leniently so ... :)

 

Well, with regard to the video, it was factually correct, IMO. Forget Rampal, he's a weirdo, the same has been chronicled by the oldest Sikh families of the Punjab. I happen to know a very prominent Sikh historian and he told me the same. This information is archived, but some of it is so old that it doesn't seem to have a valid voice.

 

The Sikhs of course, bring their hot-bloodedness to the fore and start quoting the GGS [Guru Granth Sahib, the Sikh holy book] and that's a distraction from the real facts. Also, I don't think RS is ' ahead ' of Sikhism by any stretch of the imagination. Okay, I'm Sikh by birth, but I'm a fringe-Sikh and I'm all for criticism. ( I even pushed the head priest < granthi > of a gurudwara once, in full public view, for reasons that will make for a funny post, someday. )

 

It is just that I think that RS philosophy is more psychologically damaging than the dictates of other missions and religions. Of course, this is my personal opinion, I was a real bummer at meditation and I couldn't see the light. The question is, how many have ?

 

 

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Hi Marina, The Charan v/s Gurinder debate can be an essay topic. I have to admit, I did ( and I perhaps still do ! ) love Charan very, very much. The reverence that I had for him will stay with me forever. Was he a charlatan ? Of course, if RS [Radha Soami] is BS ! However, I just cannot seem to stop having fond memories of him.

 

Maybe that has to do with the vibe that Sant Mat had in those days. Dera in Charan's time was a quaint little place, the teachings were less confusing and the Sevadars were kinder ( or less aggressive ) by a mile. Sigh ! Much has changed. Yes, I do feel sad but that is accompanied by a bitter-sweet feeling. I was very much in love with the idealistic RS philosophy and it gave me immeasurable comfort for many years.

 

Maybe, I wouldn't have been able to go through those years without having the beliefs that I did. So, well ... yes, I do agree with your viewpoint above about us being in a place that works for us for a certain time. But then again, I feel that I was conditioned to think in a certain way and didn't stand up for myself enough, didn't rationalize enough, didn't listen to my logical faculties.

 

It felt good to feel ' normal ' after I left RSSB and I could relate better to people. I felt like I was out of a cult. I felt like I was finally in charge of my choices, for a change ! That can be a very liberating feeling if you have been brought up within the belief system versus when you choose it for yourself.

 

Regardless of the changes, I now feel that there are massive loop holes in the philosophy per se. Gurinder ruined my RS view, but for the better I think. I was hurt in the beginning, but I'm quite relaxed about it now. My de-conversion was not a result of the alteration in the RS teachings, but of the overwhelming materialism that took over and that I couldn't help being exposed to ! It was against the very grain of all that I had been taught as the true Sant Mat path. ( I was actually quite numb to the change in the teachings — when you truly believe, you tend to justify everything and cannot question objectively ... )

Yes, I think my experiences were make-believe, but sometimes a belief-placebo can be good. However, it is far more trying and challenging to live life without a sense of God and I have my weak moments when I do miss being attached to a ' spiritual ' path. I now do some basic recitations from the Sikh prayer books as I think that being on the fringes of everyday religion keeps me grounded.

 

But, my main focus is on bettering myself as a person and reaching out to people. I'm very much inclined to community service and I believe that Seva does not have to be restricted to religious activities. In fact, doing anything to help someone in distress or random acts of kindness yield in as much by the karma-score.

 

I don't know if Charan made a mistake handing over to Gurinder. Who am I to comment upon that ? But, if you do go deeper into RS history the whole thing seems like a big coup. I now feel that there was something that pulled me out of Beas. More on that later, it would be very difficult to describe ...

 

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.. a very interesting thread, indeed ! I would go with tucson's take on Charan's wholly literal ( and not metaphorical ) interpretation of the RS regions. Up until today, RS reps describe the text-book version of the five spiritual planes at the mass-initiations across India while GSD takes a break during the three-hour long ceremony.

 

So, a cool and casual " burn the books " is a huge contradiction, IMO. The salvation laden theme ( via the Hindi & Punjabi Satsangs ) is directed at the unsuspecting ( and most often illiterate ) masses — there's no denying that. The bottom of the pyramid will not " get " the Oneness thing. They're investing in Sach Khand, in its full blown glory and putting their pennies in the Seva box.

 

I have questioned the deliberately different approaches and always have been told the same thing ... " it is all one and the same " ... which is a big cop out ! I'm very well versed with what's going on in India as well as what's being taught abroad so I can say with assurance that the RS teachings are radically different, in different parts of the world.

 

The melange is a trick, a clever play of words that is difficult to sift for those who are sucked in, the believing multitudes. If the truth speaks, it must speak only one language, understood by all. For me, love is the truth. I believe that reaching out to people is far more important than selfish trysts with Guru's, God-men, spirituality and all things holy.

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Hi David R, Charan was the Guru of my parents and my relatives from their generation. Up until a few years ago, I had family members who were initiated by Sawan Singh and my family knew / knows Charan's folks pretty well.

 

Yes, Charan had an answer for everything and he very often came across rather apologetic for what he said. But of course, you couldn't argue with " the " Guru. I always liked Charan. In hindsight, I feel he was caught in the Guru-situation but he played the part with love and humility. He was a sensitive man and that sensitivity reflected in the Dera of that era. I'm glad to have known Charan, he was a grandfather-like figure for me. I cannot comment on his enlightenment status, but he sure was lovable and the Sangat loved him to bits.

 

That kind of vibe is wholly missing in the Dera today. There was always the odd bully even in Charan's time, but this kind of out and out aggression by the Sevadars that you see today is the result of a deliberate policy change. GSD, in my opinion, had very different ambitions for the sect and for himself as well. I know I'll probably get a lot of flak and rage from RS believers, but I'm going to say this right here, at the Church of the Churchless ... The present RSSB Guru will renounce his gurudom in his living years.

 

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Hi tucson ... The advent of cheap mobile-phone camera technology has translated in a spike in RSSB security systems and procedures on all fronts, specially around GSD. When GSD's on the Seva rounds, plain-clothed security men sit like prying hawks amongst the Sangat and " pick-up " anyone who is caught trying to capture God on their cellular device. The person is detained for a few hours and his phone is confiscated and throughly scanned for confirmed deletion of RSSB data which is considered a serious offense.

 

The Sevadars are absolutely unforgiving and it is not like they will tap you on the shoulder and say " hey buddy, delete that pic " and move on. The offender will be subjected to some serious questioning. As a round up, the Security Head will be summoned ( under who's nose the camera-phone went undetected ) and he will be grilled by the higher RS reps. GSD is very particular about these kind of security measures and all this stems from a need of over-cautiousness as the sect has become so expansive.

 

I doubt if there is a black-market of GSD's Satsang's and Q&A's, else something would have shown up online. Charan seems like a daisy, doesn't he ! I still have to deal with believing relatives and family friends and ever so often the chatter begins to get borderline dogmatic. I roll my eyes in disbelief at the beliefs that were once so precious and dear to me. My " karma " I guess ... ;)

 

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Great comments ... I'm Indian and I've lived in India and Europe. Yes, India is overwhelmingly corrupt and the mutation of corruption is only getting worse. We have redundant public policies ( like the labor law for example ) and a real sinister law and order system. I had to bribe a government official in a " public welfare " division to organize a charitable initiative so you can imagine how ridiculous things can be here !

 

However, there is another side to all of this ... People survive the system despite the odds. Of course, that could also be seen as " taking it silently " but I have sensed a melancholic resilience that is very inspiring. There is a genuine spirit of hope, never mind that it may be projected on to some guru or local politician.

 

The poorer sections of society have sharp survival instincts. Even the tea vendor who sits under a tree has a plan. I have found most village people to be honest though their naivety is hard to ignore and a perfect snare for faith and votes. I do not blame the people, I blame the system, the positions and institutions of power that sit atop the populace — bureaucrats, government officials, politicians, religious heads, guru types and anyone else who is in a plump position to exploit ( which would also include middlemen and the insatiable greed of businessmen like Mukesh Ambani. )

 

It is very interesting to note that India's growth has been fueled mainly by the private sector while China's growth has solely been infused by the public sector. When I see street children happily dancing in the rain on a Mumbai waterfront, I cannot decide which is better — a devilish democracy like India or a communist juggernaut like China. ( That could be the subject of another debate ! ) Coming back to the " spirituality " of the subcontinent, it has been proven that we have the most holy-men per square mile. Blame it on that ?

 

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This vignette was recounted by an old Dera resident in the early Charan Singh days : Apparently, westerners and Indians would get " too friendly " and a few incidents of eloping / sex led to complaints from Indian families who had young relatives living and working at the Dera. The Dera management from then on restricted the social interaction between foreigners and Indians.

 

Of course, the above doesn't make any sense in this day and age, specially in the light of the rather radical changes in the philosophy and the new, ONENESS theme that RS Satsangs are now gravitating around. Wouldn't the ONENESS feeling apply to inter-cultural relations within the community ?

 

I've always got the feeling that RSSB was never big on inter-racial relationships within the sect in India. However, I do know a few women of Indian origin in the US who are married to " white " American followers. ( Pardon my choice of words ! ) The " brown " girls married to the " white " boys get to attend the annual Christmas party with their spouses and can marvel at the inhabitant of hostel No.6 who plays GSD in a skit specially prepared for the marked sheep of the evening.

 

Yes, you could have been born and brought up in England, but your original ethnicity and rank decides your " typing " within the RSSB community. As I see it, RSSB is many shades more liberal abroad but they have a biased and racially divided set-up in India. The " white-complex " is quite evident by the way different people are treated differently, as the correspondent above correctly points out.

 

When questioned, the general getaways " his mauj / his will / we are not capable to understand / he knows best " come flying back. Of course, the entire logic ( if any ) behind this race based division is baseless and only creates more barriers instead of breaking down the existing ones.

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Hi " the specialist " ... :) Judging from what I've personally observed, GSD's sons feel quite uncomfortable discussing their dad, Sant Mat and RSSB. They're not forthcoming and the topic is ( usually ) politely brushed off. IMO, they don't look up to their dad as some kind of God but are extremely discreet about their identities as the Guru's sons. Actually, almost all of their friends have no idea about who their dad really is, or have been told something different !

 

They live abroad, so it easier to keep the Beas connection under wraps. They do not have any RS-friends ( to my knowledge ) and prefer mingling with a non-RS social circle. It is a good thing and gives them the chance to be like normal folks, away from the Indian RS grapevine and the Gurinder-gushing initiates. I also think that they value the freedom and opportunity they have, and they seem like nice guys to me.

 

Eventually, one way or the other, GSD will have the multitudes convinced about the direction he chooses to take — succession or otherwise. He often says that he's only following Charan's will, never mind that Charan was quite against the full scale expansion of the sect. Regardless, the newer teachings resonate with the newcomers and it would be easier to convince them about anything, versus dealing with Charan's brood — the hardline Sant Mat followers and villagers who are still steeped in Radha Soami Mat 1.0.

 

Most of the educated newbies at Satsang have little idea of the old school RS beliefs and GSD's favorite catch phrase " burn the books " gives him the levy he needs to abandon it all someday. On the other hand, it is interesting to note that people are more into " darshan " than ever before and that is another reason why the scenario is very confusing, specially for my parents generation.

 

GSD's often said " this is not the only path " so he may be hinting at something different, but there are only a fraction of followers who actually revisit what he says and try and make sense of it all. He is way, way slicker than Rajinder. Beas is the largest RS faction and they exude a sense of superiority over the other groups.

 

Lately, GSD's been seen visiting the other RS lineages in India in an attempt to liberalize his own teachings and to be seen as the Guru-cool from Beas. I think he's very open and would welcome an alliance with Rajinder as long as he gets Chicago ! After all, in his own words " it is all the same " so maybe we'll have a holy conglomerate soon.

 

Anyway, GSD has a plan and I hope it includes charitable initiatives in the future. Beas has a lot of money, I wish they would show some generosity. I just realized I sound like a conspiracy theorist ( lol ) but I'm just giving you my observations and opinions. Good day !

 

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harneet says : " i can't understand why people are so critical of RSSB and baba gurinder singh dhillon. " Reply : You cannot understand because you have no knowledge of the philosophy and the tenets of the RS faith. It is also highly unlikely that you know anything about GSD, his past and the inner workings of the sect.

 

harneet says : " as far as his personal investments are concerned, what is wrong with that. " Reply : Nothing, as long as the means to his wealth creation are not contradictory to the philosophy that he propagates. Plus, I don't see why a Perfect Living Master would feel the need to amass wealth in the first place.

 

harneet says : " he belongs to a well to do family. he sold his lands and showroom and other property to invest further. Reply : He came from a modest background. What do you know about his days in Spain ? And, the sale of a few acres of land in the agricultural belt of Punjab cannot buy a large shareholding in a financial services compa

 

harneet says : " malvinder and shivinder are the grandsons of the previous guru, maharaj charan singh. hence they are babaji's nephews. so he invested money with his nephews for his children. " Reply : You can add another fact to that — the Dhillon's and the Singh's had never been close when Charan was the Guru. In fact, GSD was struggling with his career and Charan had sent him to Spain to work for the Balani's. This horse and pony show ( Religare ) was GSD's idea and the Singh brothers are now tired of pumping in the money. Besides, don't you think that someone as wise as a PLM would have his sons make it on their own ?

 

harneet says : " what is wrong with that. " Reply : Everything — if the position of power has been a catalyst to wealth accumulation, and in this case specifically. Have you read Honest Living ?

 

harneet says : " he has never claimed to be God but only guru. " Reply : You must be referring to Sant Mat 2.0. I suggest you read Sar Bachan and The Path of The Masters. You could also watch a short three-part video on YouTube posted by Osho Robbins, who is an ex-preacher for RSSB in the UK.

 

harneet says : " he is not forcing the radha soami philosophy on anyone. " Reply : He doesn't need to, the RSSB management has strategies and plans in place like any other organization. China is currently big on their radar.

 

harneet says : " it is for those who choose the path. " Reply : More like — it is for those who get sucked in !

 

harneet says : " as far as religion is concerned, he never tells anyone to change theirs. " Reply : Yet, he does say that visits to temples, shrines, mosques, churches and gurudwaras will yield nothing, which is just another way to deter people from going to their places of worship. But of course, the RS meditation is all about visualizing GSD while chanting the über-secret mantra.

 

harneet says : " when a person takes naam he / she includes other principles to his / her existing beliefs without changing his / her religion." Reply : Bollocks ! The mainstream RS believers have actually given up on their respective religions and consider GSD and his teachings as the be-all-end-all of their lives. And, how would you know anything about " naam " and the meditation practice when you're not a follower yourself ?

 

harneet says : " there are no forced donations. only discourses. " Reply : I guess you missed seeing the money-boxes at the exits with those men with foot-rulers pushing the currency notes inside ! I had suggested an experiment to see whether people are likely to donate before Satsang.

 

harneet says : " i am not a satsangi but i have been to the dera in beas and was highly impressed by what i saw and experienced. " Reply : Cleanliness, order and discipline is always impressive. For a visitor, the Dera it is quite a refreshing break from everyday places of worship. However, what you fail to see is the programmed, regimented and autocratic rule in play.

 

harneet says : " it is all about being a better person spiritually and otherwise. " Reply : Really ? How can you say that ? I've yet to see bigger egoists and crooks than the RS upper crust — spiritually and otherwise.

 

harneet says : " and if the philosophy does not appeal to you don't follow it. being critical of something that lakhs of people are benefiting from makes you sound like a bitter and rabid person with a heart filled with prejudice and having a very narrow view. " Reply : Holy cow, you're so judgmental yourself ! What do you know about the ex-sats on this forum to pass a remark like that ? You're not even a follower ( in your own words ) so how can you comment on someone else's experience with RS Sant Mat ? Why don't you get initiated, put in the prescribed hours of meditation and then come back after a year and post your findings ?

 

harneet says : " one man's meat is another's poison. try to live and let live. " Reply : Puh-lease, spare me that one !

 

harneet says : " focus on improving yourself instead of filling your heart with hatred of something you dont understand fully. " Reply : So, you're not a follower, yet you have " fully understood " the RS faith ? I think you've never read one Sant Mat related book and are basing your opinions on some hear-say and a visit to the Dera. IMO, it is about time you " focus on improving " your skewed perspective by actually walking the talk. You remind me of a brainwashed gimlet who's trying to defend something without actually knowing what is it that he is defending.

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sneha says : " nobody is a fool to follow any path blindly... " Reply : First off, a majority of the Indian RSSB following comprises of the poor, gullible, uneducated villagers who will cling on to any Guru-type in the hope of a better tomorrow. Quite sad, but there is no dearth of naivety.

 

sneha says : " they have experienced something... rather whole lotz of things... that is why they follow... " Reply : What have YOU experienced ? What is YOUR story ? Who are " they " ? What is the " something / lotz of things " you're referring to ? How well do you know the RSSB multitudes ? How well versed are you with village-mentality ?

 

sneha says : " if people would have been so innocent then, why Jesus was so ill treated... " Reply : I don't see the rationale behind this question ! Are you trying to say that all saints were misunderstood and / or are you comparing GSD to Jesus ? Anyway, this is an archetypal RS statement, I've heard it before.

 

sneha says : " man... use your brains... you can make 1 fool... 10 fool 1000 fool 10000 fool 100000 fool but not at least crores of people following... " Reply : Yes, you can — look at what the government is doing, it is fooling the entire nation. The RS philosophy is very appealing when you are a victim of mind control. Submission comes with a terrible vulnerability and this can happen on a mass-scale. Browse www.culthelp.info and you'll get the idea.

 

sneha says : " plz there is a humble request that if you don't follow... its ok... but don't criticize... " Reply : I do agree with you on some level, why criticize when you don't follow. But hey, we all have our own opinions and here is where we discuss religion and the likes. What's the big deal ? Of course, you have the choice to not read !

 

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the specialist, GSD prefers to keep a low profile for several reasons. Firstly, public opinion becomes limited in the absence of media exposure. People can only discuss what they read and see. If there is no information about GSD / RSSB in the press ( electronic and print ) it becomes difficult to point a finger. So, this creates a big opportunity to do things quietly, without the scrutiny of informed believers.

 

Secondly, staying in the shadows creates an aura of mystery in an already overexposed Guru industry. The tactic is to retain the charm and curiosity associated with a God-man who is inaccessible. Again, this gives ample room for questionable activities on the inside. Also, there is no dearth of gullible believers in an uneducated and over populated country like India, so the unquestioning multitudes are better than a few rich followers.

 

In the scenario of RSSB and its philosophy gaining publicity, it would be interesting to see how excerpts from " Sar Bachan " that claim that the Guru is God In Human Form would go down with the literate, burgeoning middle-class. And, the philosophy could run into some rough weather with the Sikhs, as Gurinder looks like one, but is actually the Guru-leader of a minority religion.

 

GSD's media-policy has worked well for him and the mission. I don't think he'll ever risk his image by giving a media interview. People dig when they get a lead, GSD does not give a single one ! Not even a single discourse or Q&A session has been recorded till date. The value of RSSB's asset corpus has risen unimaginably due to the rising land prices in the subcontinent so the sect is real-estate rich. All operations are volunteer work so the expenses are minimal. You can add to that a mammoth chunk of in-taxable cash donations.

 

Secrecy is a good way to go, till it busts. I know for a fact that GSD is very particular about legalities — he secures all loopholes. Laws can easily be bended in this side of the world, specially by the powerful and influential. The good thing is that the Indian Government has a lead on the black money trail through a list of Indian Swiss accounts that have been presented by Rudolf Elmer of Julius Baer. But that's just one bank, and of course, the bad thing is that the list will never be made public ! I suspect that all of India's God-men have sizable sums in the tax-havens of the world.

 

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Betty — Like a well-oiled money management system, things are designed in a manner that legally allow Gurinder to make the money that he makes. But of course, from a Sant Mat point of view, this becomes very questionable. Power is not directly misused by the Guru and his family.

 

But the creation of loophole that helps them profiteer from the position is what has funded Gurinder's son's Mayfair residence. Had Gurinder not been the Guru, he'd probably not be crusin' around in a Bentley. Such is the story of most Indian God-men, so no surprise ! But then again, most of them don't claim to be GIHF's... ;) mla — Oh ! Puh-lease ! One silly comment after another. Just tell us that you've been hired by RSSB and my day will be complete.

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mla... I'm saying it again — RS is BS ! If you care to watch closely, Gurinder is saying it himself. And, you cannot compare the " supreme / truth / presence " with Gurinder ! No, it is not one and the same, so you've lost it at some level. If you claim to know Gurinder very well, why don't we see how many people we know in common up there in the RS top-brass ?

 

Do you want me to send you a list ? Will you give details about them ? Should we do this right here on an open forum so it is for all to see ? Good idea ? That way you can rightfully say that I don't know a thing — but that has to be proven, so let's do this ! Ready ?

 

As for the insults, do you think I even care ? Go on, make your own day ! RSSB has become a rule-driven cult, devoid of love and compassion. The days of the Great Masters are long gone— but even if Sawan and Charan were liars, they still look many shades better than Gurinder.

 

Mind control is a bad thing, injecting fear and guilt in people is evil. I believe in charity much more than " spirituality " now. The RS mindset is narrow and easily clutters with judgement. In contrast, the place in a kind heart and open mind, is limitless.

 

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Hi Mike, please send me a private email. Brian has my ID. Seeker2011, I echo your thoughts, well said. Hanging out with GSD gave me a pretty good idea of the business-like, political workings of the sect — quite a contradiction to the stuff that pours out of the theology. Utter BS ! But I do believe that the show will be over sooner or later.

 

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I'm not surprised. GSD is very low-key when it comes to the media. He also manages to stay away from the flashbulbs. How ? A few members of his force comb the scene ahead of his arrival. Photographers and journalists are quietly identified, then requested and / or deflected so that no pictures are taken. He's never given an interview.

 

The RSSB policy on media-persons wanting a byte from Gurinder and his spiritual cronies is simple. They are " humbly " told that the Master's sole purpose is to serve the Sangat and that " HE " does not believe in publicity because he's against " marketing the philosophy " of the mission. Good idea ! Specially, when there are millions to be made on the side.

 

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A B - You're on the fear circuit. I can add a dozen tales to yours, spicier ones if you prefer. Gurinder himself says that he cannot perform any miracles, so how does that make him any different from you or me ? If you let something control you psychologically, then it will and you will attribute every little thing that happens in your life to it — even finding the last parking slot out there.

 

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I'm butting in, but I have my doubts Mike ! I know Gurinder rather well and he is the guy on top... :) He's actually the one who controls everything, the board members are pawns. I know a gentleman who served on the board and his pet answer was " mauj " to everything Gurinder did. He finally quit, couldn't handle the lies. Anyone who comes too close to the power center cannot keep the faith.

 

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Peter, The Beas style initiation is just plain boring, I was actually quite disappointed with the whole session. Gurinder was so mechanical, I couldn't believe it ! There was not a whiff of anything special in the air, it was like a training session and this was a relatively small group.

 

A few months later, I attended the large-scale version and there were fifteen hundred people present. Gurinder walked past the lines with his security men in tow, fleetingly glancing at everyone present in order to omit the unfit ones. ( It is believed that the Guru can see through the hopefuls and himself rejects the ones he deems " not ready " or unfit for initiation. Bollywood actresses are the current exception to the rule. )

 

Anyway, there were no rejections that day, Gurinder has become very liberal lately, it's common knowledge that he rarely ever denies anyone initiation which of course is considered gracious and all forgiving by the faithful. Initial instructions are given by the dozens of representatives, then Gurinder repeats the technique once or twice. It's a drill.

 

Before you exit, the representatives round you up into smaller groups and ensure that the mantra is recited correctly. The strange bit is that they instruct you to keep repeating the holy names throughout the day, in addition to the allotted meditation time, like some kind of background replay the brain. That is entirely impossible and I found that to be ridiculous !

 

One way or the other, they just want to control you. I felt like I was in an assembly-line manufacturing unit. When I stepped out, I wondered what was so divine about it all.

 

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Betty, Leaving was a tough choice, specially when you have family and a social circle attached to it all. But then, the choice was between acting upon my instincts or living in denial. It has not been easy, but I've found the strength to move on.

 

***** Hey Osho, you're so right ! My aunt has it figured out, so have I, so have my brothers. I wonder how long it will take the rest of my family to get out of the woods ! I think that more than anything else, people don't like disturbing their comfort zone. A faith-shake is not for the faint hearted, really !

 

Gurinder told me the same thing — " burn the books " and then followed it up with " they're just there to whet the appetite " at which point I paused : Then, I ( candidly ) said " appetite for what then ? " And he finished up with " you're intellectualizing, you have to surrender. " Later, I thought about it and I found it rather unconvincing. At the end, it is all about towing the company line so " burn the books " is just a lame joke.

 

Yes, I agree, the speakers have seen nothing themselves ! They are pet parrots, put on little pedestals and fed on darshan and importance. I know more than twenty speakers. I've confronted them all about their spiritual " progress " and the standard answer is one of the following cop-outs : 01. " It is all HIS mauj, we can do nothing ! " ( BS ) 02. " We're all struggling souls ! " ( BS x 10X ) 03. " We have to experience it for ourselves ! " ( BS x 50X ) 04. " We must not share our spiritual progress with anyone ! " ( BS x 100X ) 05. " Who are we to judge, how do we know how far we are ? " ( BS x 200X )

 

Not a single one of them came up with a statement that began with " I " and it was fitting to see how " we " and " us " were woven into everything. The plurals acted as a barrier for a more personal discussion, until I shamelessly pressed on with " how many miles to trikuti " or something equally cheeky. I remember walking up to a speaker right after Satsang with post-it's sticking out from Sar Bachan, and this guy saw me and ran the other way ! The speakers are liars, they are like the clowns of the RSSB circus.

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Osho, Marina, Mike, Nietzsche ... :) About fifteen years ago my aunt had a strange experience during meditation — she felt a golden star burst at the top of her head. For many days after that happened, she was very uncomfortable meditating. She told us that she had read in the books that this would happen, but that her " progress " was meant to be steady after that. Soon, she became quite worried because the opposite was happening and it came to a point where she could no longer meditate.

 

A few weeks later she spoke about her experience with two RS friends, who in turn, discouraged her from sharing this " awakening " with other members. She decided to meet Baba-Ji. He was vague and didn't have much to say ! She started to read frantically in an attempt to find out what was happening to her. Her Seva team grew suspicious of her and she was literally " thrown out " of her Seva because she would openly talk about her growing concerns of being unable to meditate. She was deemed a bad influence to be around with.

 

More than anything else, this hit her so hard that she became very depressed and was diagnosed with clinical depression a couple of years after this happened. At the end of it, she found a new " spiritual " group which was a mix of people from different schools of thought — Zen, Osho, Vedanta, Jiddu K and the like. She enjoyed their diversity, actively socialized and lead a normal life again. It is funny how first hand experiences like the one above didn't dampen my RS spirits. That is how sucked in I was !

 

Before my initiation, I went through a phase where I was trying to disassociate Gurinder from the teachings. I had stopped idolizing him but somewhere in my head and heart I wanted to believe in the teachings. I went to the Dera right after my initiation and was appalled at the way the road-construction Sevadars were being treated — poor men who had come all the way from Rajasthan for ( unpaid ) Seva were counting pennies to pay for lunch.

 

I followed them. One of them strayed to a water tanker close by for a gulp of water. The goon on duty ( Sevadar ) rudely told him to move on. I yelled back at the guy. I don't know what came over me but I told him in Hindi " you have no soul you dog " or something like that. I watched them at the local canteen, made conversation. The love that they possessed for the Guru was incomprehensible. We stood and ate, there were no chairs for anyone. Before the meal was over, the goon returned to urge them to eat fast, telling them that there was no break and that they had to report back to duty soon. I felt miserable.

 

IMO, this was exploitation. But then again, I had seen all this for years ! All along, I had reveled in the luxury of being close to the Guru's family and basked in the material glory of having my father's office book my ticket to Beas at a whim. I felt like the biggest hypocrite in the world. I realized that I could not segregate Gurinder, his policies and the teachings — he was the one responsible for the in-compassionate treatment of the poor workers.

 

No amounts of his personal niceties and favors towards me and my family could change that. At the bottom of the RS pyramid is feudal style slavery, and the fact remains that the very people who do the toughest Seva for the mission will never get the chance to meet Gurinder — their God.

 

However, the icing on the cake was Gurinder's son's wedding ! The girl's family served up all sorts of meat at one of their parties where the RS group ( the boy's side ) stood shakily at one end of the garden. Of course, Gurinder knew that they were serving meat and he didn't attend that party, but he had specifically given a private dictate that he didn't want to curtail the celebratory mood and that RSSB stands for an " acceptance " of another's wishes and beliefs.

 

Wow ! I recalled the time when I was strongly advised fish-oil capsules by the doctor and the confusion that stemmed from that led to a " karma conference " within my family. So, it is acceptable to permit meat when there is a wedding in the Guru's family, but a prescribed bottle of medication for a believer is a no-no ? Ah, ha !

 

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The more I hung out with Gurinder, the more " normal " I realized he was. I've been lucky, I've observed him carefully. Strangely, I never felt that same " pull " towards him, the way I felt when I was around Charan. ( Again, that could have been my own projection ! )

 

Whenever I met Gurinder, he referred to Charan on the smallest of issues that he didn't want to be accountable for. One part of me felt that he was passing the buck on, the other cried " You're my Master, you're responsible ! " He specifically told me that he was carrying out Charan's will, playing the role that was given to him. He said — " We're all struggling ! " That phrase got the better of everyone present, sighs of Gurinder's humbleness reverberated long after we dispersed.

 

Well, I wasn't entirely convinced. I think he believes he's enlightened, but knows he's unknowing. He's very confused himself, but yes, he's very confident at the same time. When I was a believer I couldn't look at him in the eye. It was like a confession session and I just couldn't face him ! I was fearful, thinking that he could see right through me and read my thoughts.

 

Over the months, somewhere in 2008, my faith began to wane, and I grew more confident around him. I realized that my thoughts were my own and that he couldn't read them.

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It has been an interesting morning indeed ! I think everyone's correct on this. Yes, Gurinder had imposed a so called " online ban " for all things relating to RS and RSSB. That was in 1996. I asked him about this specifically, back in 2001 and he said " How is it ( the internet ) going to help you with your spiritual progress ? "

 

So yes, he did not encourage seekers. tAo has typed excerpts from the US newsletter that RSSB published. But, that was then. The internet was not as powerful as it is today. He couldn't foresee this happening. Later, at some point in 2002 or so, he changed his mind. He probably realised it himself ( or was advised ) that reverse psychology would work better with the internet savvy seekers.

 

People had started to question him about " stuff " that they would pick up online. Mike's website and David Lane's thoughts on the RS subject were a click of a button away. Then Brian started up this blog. I spoke with him again and this time he said " Why don't you read everything that you can find online, and if you still want to be initiated, then come back. "

 

That was the standard answer he gave to anyone remotely intelligent. Now, he fully encourages a Google search. They are a number of " I love my Baba-Ji " Facebook groups that discuss everything from Satsang dates to grace ridden Baba-Ji sightings at Heathrow.

 

You see, Gurinder is smart, very smart. He moves with the times. Now, he's fed up with the five regions, their kings and Sat Purush. He's discontinued the Sach Khand ferry and has switched to the ONENESS. He went over to the Dayal Bagh faction to embrace their Guru. RSSB has " moved on " and Gurinder is going to capitalize on the online RS information to his advantage. He's much smarter than the " Baba-Ji " people see on the dais. He's now become a fusion druid. Let's see how long it lasts... :)

 

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Catherine, a few corrections : Parminder Singh died in Delhi in 1999 following a prolonged battle with cancer. His sons, Shivinder Mohan Singh and Malvinder Mohan Singh ( now known as the Singh Brothers ) succeeded him. Ranbaxy was always a professionally managed company in the days of Dr. Singh, but following his passing, many differences between the board and the promoters crept in.

 

Gurinder is said to have played his part. Malvinder Singh sought to muscle in after an eruption of disagreements with the professional CEO — D.S Brar, one of the oldest employees of Ranbaxy who was instrumental along with Dr. Singh in shaping the vision for Ranbaxy. Brar resigned in 2004 and it was all downhill for Ranbaxy from there. Malvinder Singh re-shuffled the board and took control. By the end of it — price wars, reduced profitability, debt and expiring patents got the better of Ranbaxy.

 

In mid 2008, the Singh Brothers decided to sell the family's 64% stake to Daiichi Sankyo in a deal that was too overwhelmingly overvalued to decline. In just months after their takeover, the Japanese realized that they were stung in the backside, and Malvinder Singh was politely told to leave. Read : http://business.rediff.com/column/2009/jun/05/malvinder-singhs-ranbaxy-report-card.htm

 

Please note that there was always some confusion about Dr. Singh's name : Parminder or Parvinder, you'll find half the articles on one name and the other half on the other. A short biography of Dr. Singh can be found here... Read : http://www.sikh-history.com/sikhhist/personalities/parvinder.html Gurinder affair with the Singh Brother's had already begun in 2006 with the inception of Religare, the financial services company that he mentored.

 

The sale of Ranbaxy gave Religare the shot of capital that it needed. Whatever transpired between them, it is quite clear that Gurinder's wealth was created by the opportunity that he found or was given to him — by the Singh Brothers. But, it is also important to note that Gurinder may have made a number of important and correct decisions for the Singh Brothers after Dr. Singh's demise.

 

Of course, selling the golden goose for ten thousand golden eggs is debatable, but with the valuation that Ranbaxy got, it would have taken an extremely conservative and competent man to say no and walk the company back to a second term of success. But then again, Gurinder's role as the family's Guru and business advisor, coupled with his own personal business agenda, was a bit too entwined to do any differently.

 

IMO, I think RSSB should seriously consider updating Gurinder's wikipedia information to include Religare. Unless of course, like everything else, he wants to keep 'em guessing !

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Nietzsche, Okay, Religare-RSSB cross holdings are a likely possibility, but Ranbaxy being funded by Religare in 2006 ( via RSSB trust funds ) may be quite a stretch. I cannot say I have not heard that one before, but it would be impossible to verify. Yes, late in 2007 I did receive a few emails when the shareholding was discovered but they were full of stuff that was a bit over-the-top to believe !

 

However, I do believe the word of the senior ex-Religare employee I know, who specifically told me of the movements of money between RSSB and Religare. What I really want to know is what the RSSB trust members are thinking about these money transactions.

 

You see, Charan Singh's representatives are retired, the last one in 2002, and the new appointees are selected by Gurinder. Of course, there are a couple of them who are Gurinder's close aides who are also on the Religare side, but what about the other independent members who live in Beas, the old-school loyal initiates, the scrutinizing stern old men ?

 

You know what ? I think they're all gone ! I now have a feeling that they are no independent Sevadars and the trust is being controlled only by Gurinder and his sidekicks and the financial headquarters have been moved out of Dera. Yes, this makes sense. I think the Dera accounts division must be limited to the Dera expenditure, while the centralized activity is happening elsewhere.

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Hi, Catherine. All property of the Radha Soami Satsang Beas ( RSSB ) sect is owned by the RSSB trust. Gurinder is the head of the trust and has full discretionary powers over the management and is the financial exchequer of all monetary transactions within RSSB. In other words, he's the only boss and the final decision maker on everything. The trust members are appointed by Gurinder and do not hold position through a fair election.

 

It is more like a fascist, authoritarian set-up. Gurinder's sons were under the guardianship of Gurinder's close friends in the UK. Since Gurinder does not like too much attention drawn to himself or his family, his friends were the official guardians at school / college as well, so no one found out that their father is the head of a large spiritual sect in India. They can get away with the " Guru's Sons " tag here in India, because there is an inherent acceptance of Guru-types which is a part of the air that we breathe here. But, can you imagine what would happen if Gurinder's son's room-mate in UK discovered that his friends' dad is a GIHF ? It would have made his Facebook page crash !

 

The poor guy would have been so embarrassed. His sons had a difficult time when Gurinder visited their boarding school in India, but boy, dealing with a GIHF-dad in the UK would be an entirely different thing. That is why his sons lead a discreet life in London. They deliberately choose to have a non-RS social circle and don't reveal their parental lineage ( or their identity as the Guru's sons ) to the ones who don't know. It is quite understandable.

 

Gurinder has set his sons up for a life of luxury — the older one's first job was being a director in his own company at the London office where he would have possibly interviewed people thrice as smart as himself, for a fifteenth of the pay. Everyone wants the best for their children, but most of the rich Indian parents usually don't want their children to rub and rough with the world, or make it on their own !

 

I've met Gurinder's sons, they come across as nice guys. The elder one is a Savile Row regular and is hardworking too. His wife is quite a brand addict, but hey, that's the life that was given to them. They're not the kind of kids who'll do things differently — it's not in their upbringing. More significantly, they have framed a clever disconnect between the sons and the father and it makes perfect sense to keep it that way.

 

Most of the Indian RS high-society has a tendency to be very nosy about the Guru's personal life, specially after his corporate escapades. Staying incognito in London gives his children the chance to lead a normal ( and luxurious ) life and some privacy from a very inquisitive and gossipy " spiritual " grapevine. And, ultimately, it also serves the important purpose of keeping most of their wealth out of the country and hidden from — the taxman, the questioning Satsangi, the old school friend, the doubting distant relative, the ex-sat guerrilla paparazzo : me... :)

 

Anyway, I really don't care about how much money he makes from Religare, I wish he takes it all and has a great life. I'll help him load up the money-train from Beas to wherever he wants to go and tell no one about it ! What irks me the most is that he still seems to believe that he's got something spiritually valuable to impart and that he's carrying out Charan's will. Thanks for the laugh Catherine, you're right... " No wonder he ( Gurinder ) can't remember what the previous Masters taught about Sant Mat. “

 

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For : Mike, Bet ***** ***** Mike, Yes, financial oscillations between RSSB and Religare are a very likely scenario. Money going to and fro, borrowing and lending — it may all be happening. That would also help explain why the Singh Brothers gave Religare shareholding to no other relative, other than Gurinder. The RSSB purse-strings are solely in his hands and the RSSB-trust is mega cash-rich, and a tax-free pot of gold.

 

So, my take is that the Singh Brothers put in their capital and Gurinder was given a preferential allotment of equity based on his three-fold role : One, the promise of the " support of the RSSB-trust " as and when required. Two, Gurinder brought to the Religare table a band of RS loyalists ( like Sunil Godhwani, now Group CEO of Religare ) and RS board members who would keep everything under wraps and unquestionably sign any document.

 

( I'd like to add here that they're obviously not doing a very good job of keeping their secrets secure — I learnt from a top level employee, on a condition of anonymity, that there was some " backstage Guru " who was taking all the important decisions. This informer eventually quit Religare citing questionable business practices, poor governance and the risk of public exposure. )

 

Three, he would give his GIHF decisions, which have been spot-on so far ! It may also be possible that the Satsang funds are being wisely invested, as the mission has grown under Gurinder's tutelage. But, more people also means more donations. And, the financial records at the Dera are periodically destroyed.

 

Basically, it is all mixed-up, but Gurinder and his troupe of clowns are having a rich laugh. Sunil Godhwani exited the quarterly Religare review in a spanking new car after declaring a big financial loss. On the other side, the Sangat isn't complaining either.

 

I went to the local Satsang yesterday and 1.0 recitations of " Kaal " and " Kalyug " were in full force. What a drama it was ! Who is the bigger idiot I wondered — the preacher or the listener ? You see, Sant Mat 3.0 makes the role of a Guru redundant. So essentially, Gurinder has washed his hands off the Sach Khand trips for the english-speaking Sangat. He's left us with the " feel good " ONENESS thing but continues to drive the droves of cattle like the traditional herder.

 

Which is why I think that 3.0 is worse than 1.0 — it is not setting everyone free, only a handful of the educated ones who can decode the engineered confusion.

 

----- ----- Bet, Very good points, they're obviously not concerned about the greater common good ! It would be wonderful even if RSSB policies were selfish about charity and provided something for their own Sangat only. It is such a pity that the poor believing villager cannot be provided with a new pair of one-dollar slippers. RSSB's overtly materialistic priorities leave little room for love and compassion.

 

It has become a pseudo-spiritual juggernaut with a single-minded ambition to acquire as much property and land as possible. Gurinder has doctored this. The ground water contamination issue is a big problem in Punjab. RSSB does not believe in partnering with the state agencies to counter this plaguing concern. Yet, they encourage risky and irresponsible organ donation through motivational videos at Satsang.

 

Being the largest of the holy Dera's in Punjab they should actually be addressing the root cause of the problem. However, they cleverly stay out of initiatives that require monetary investments and resort to skin-deep techniques that makes them look like a humane organization. What a lie !

 

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For : Catherine, Nietzsche, Bet ***** ***** ***** Catherine, I have my doubts if the Dera administration staff will be reading this, and if you send them an e.mail regarding any query that is questioning in nature — you'll probably not get a reply.

 

Okay... Charan was a different man. He was not interested in Ranbaxy and the politics, and often told Parminder to manage his professional journey outside Beas. He was clear about his role as the head of RSSB and did not mix that with a side-business. His own son is working for Fortis today. Had Charan taken advantage of his proximity to Parminder, his sons would have been shareholders, three decades ago !

 

----- ----- Nietzsche, well, " Singh " is a part of a Sikh / Punjabi surname, more like a common middle name, but sometimes people do not use their clan / caste / sub-caste titles so they just go with Singh as a surname. I hope that is clear... :)

 

Logos is the holding company of the shareholding and different investment arms of the Dhillon family. You're right about Gurinder's lack of empathy, and he seems to think that all is fair in business. In my opinion, he just can't tell the difference between " moral " and " legal " so he is very confused indeed !

 

----- ----- Hi Bet, I assume they couldn't be bothered ! Believers will be believers, and for every one person who thinks that I may be right, they are a hundred who think I'm wrong. So, the odds are against me. And, I hope Brian's servers are secure ! All the facts that we're discussing here can be verified online. The company prospectuses of Religare and Logos Holdings are public information, accessible to anyone with a little time and inclination.

 

The personal anecdotes I inject are either first hand experiences or come from reliable sources close to the Guru's friends, the Religare " inner circle " and / or other high ranking RSSB members. I'm not into sensationalizing stuff, but I quite enjoy writing so I end up doing it in a story-telling manner. I may be the voice of many people... :)

 

In my opinion, it is highly unlikely that RSSB donations were used to buy Religare shares. Gurinder has actually done a very good job of expanding RSSB. He has juggled RSSB properties and bagged some good deals for the sect. Good infrastructure and modern conveniences are the order of the day. But wherever there is growth, there is money to be made.

 

It is like the government of a developing economy. Everyone benefits and the positive trickle-down effect is felt by all. Except of course, this is a " spiritual " organization and the benefits here are non-materialistic for the bottom line. Yes, the same money that goes into buying an expensive Satsang parking-lot can instead be used for healthcare for the poorer sections of the Sangat. It is a matter of priority, entirely.

 

I don't think that Gurinder is siphoning money directly out of the RSSB-trust coffers ! However, I believe that the trust money is being managed by Religare and Gurinder is a major shareholder of that company. It makes sense for the Guru to manage the RSSB-trust money through a financial services company that he partially owns. He's well versed with both sides, so who will take who for a ride ?

 

Anyway, he may not be directly profiting from RSSB but profiteering from it via Religare. Well, this is not as verifiable as the Religare shareholding, but I have my reasons to think it may be the case. But, even if the RSSB-trust surplus is being managed by Religare, it is a marginal activity. But then again, if an old RSSB property is sold for 50 million USD and Religare gets the brokerage, you can do the math !

 

And, why would they get another asset management company to do the deal when they can take care of it in-house ? But of course, RSSB has bought many properties internationally and Religare has an international presence as well. But still, all of it would be a minuscule amount of business, but also, a possible RSSB-Religare commercial connection.

 

To add to that, the RSSB-trust accounts are close to external audits. So, if I'm beginning to get speculative about Gurinder's jet-fuel consumption and where that Falcon 7X flies him, he has the choice to come clean and tell us where he's invested the 50 million USD that came into the RSSB purse from the Ahmedabad land deal.

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Nietzsche. Great ! You've made the effort to backtrack into Gurinder's current financial status and what you've stated sums up the facts very well. I'm relieved that what I've been harping about on the COTC ( that makes me sound like a conspiracy theorist in the process ) has some validation from an independent fellow blogger... :)

 

My additional thoughts are : Gurinder ordered the Ranbaxy sell-out, and as a faith policy, Shivinder and Malvinder do not over-rule anything HE decides. The final " go ahead boys " was given by Gurinder. I know this because the celebratory cheers resounded with a boisterous " Baba-ji does not make any mistakes ! " that came from none other than Sunil Godhwani, Baba-ji's right-hand man.

 

Before the news hit the press, everyone knew that a chunk of that booty would be pumped into Religare. Of course, Ranbaxy's health was generously inflated, but the sell-out was the best possible move from a financial standpoint — considering that the Singh Brothers made quite a mess of the succession when they inherited the company, which subsequently reflected in the company's performance over the years.

 

There was a joke in the corporates circles here that Parminder Singh was in a big shock in heaven when he learnt that Gurinder had advised his sons to sell Ranbaxy. His reaction was : " What ? Who the f*** is he ? " ( LOL ) This entire Religare affair that Gurinder's having with the Singh Brothers is in direct conflict with his role as a Guru, whether he's teaching 1.0 or 3.0. His insatiable appetite for wealth is sick, specially when there is no charitable initiative for the poorer sections of the Sangat that make up for ninety-five percent of his following.

 

IMO, Gurinder wants them to remain hungry and foolish otherwise they will not be interested in the salvation promise, which is why I think that Sant Mat 3.0 will never be introduced to the langar. You are absolutely right about the Mc-Donald's style of operations at Fortis. Also, the services they provide are the Micky-D's equivalent of fries and nuggets. It is all about the money, with little regard for ethical practice and human life.

 

But, it is interesting to note that post Ranbaxy, none of the Singh Brothers' businesses have been particularly profitable. It is too early to call, but Fortis is struggling. And, going forward, the competition will intensify. Religare is hemorrhaging under the acumen-devoid leadership of Sunil Godhwani and is showing no signs of recovering. Religare continually gets mini bail-outs from the huge cash reserves that the Singh Brothers are currently sitting on, but the well could dry-up in less than a decade if their current run continues.

 

It is also possible that Gurinder could make some bad ( not-so-GIHF ) decisions. Our comments here are forming a valuable archive for those who will seek to find out more, specially after the radical shift in the Sant Mat teachings. I like the Japanese quote, it applies to all of us.

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Nietzsche. No ! No ! Lets get this straight. Analjit Singh has not become rich on the backs of his nephews — the Singh Brothers. He was Bhai Mohan Singh's youngest son and Parminder Singh's youngest brother. Following a family division in 1989, the pharma business ( Ranbaxy ) went to his older brother ( Parminder ) and he got the smaller Max India. Has since built it into $1 billion ( sales ) Max Group with interests in healthcare, insurance, clinical research and packaging.

 

Currently, his healthcare business ( Max Hospitals ) is the biggest competitor of Fortis Healthcare, which is the healthcare business of the Singh Brothers. They are business rivals and the two families have never had any commercial alliance with each other after they parted ways in the Charan Singh days. Of course, they have often dragged each other to court over petty disputes ( a small property or some section of Bhai Mohan Singh's will ) but it was Analjit who got the raw deal when his father preferentially gave Ranbaxy to his oldest son.

 

For more on Analjit, this article sums it up well : http://business.in.com/article/boardroom/analjit-singhs-futureproof-strategy/24072/1 Gurinder's two sons, Gurpreet Singh Dhillon and Gurkirat Singh Dhillon can be found on the Indian Billionaires Club on the website here : http://www.indiastudychannel.com/resources/87721-Billionaire-Club-Ranking.aspx

 

Okay friend, stop looking for Gurinder on that list ! He's way smarter than that. The legitimate money is in his sons' names who live in London. It is highly likely that the larger ill-legit amounts are off-shored safely in the private banks of Switzerland and Liechtenstein.

 

His sons lead a rather discreet life in London. Most of their friends do not even know who their father is ! I can't find the latest rankings where they are at 355 / 356, but this rating ranks them at 360 / 361 respectively. ( I'll tell someone to search it out and I'll post it later ! )

 

Another correction — Ranbaxy was not sold last year, it was in the June of 2008. Immediately after that ( in July ) the Singh Brothers formally changed the name of Fortis Financial Ltd. to Religare Enterprises Ltd. The name " Religare " was chosen / approved by Gurinder. ( The etymology of the word « religion » in latin : Religare, means to bind. )

 

What else ? Hmmm... Yeah, there is a ton of stuff on Ranbaxy's dubious business practices. They were quite infamous for their animal testing methods, that is fine, but the promoters followed a rigid spiritual path that did not permit mayo. Oops ! Gurinder is the only " relative " who is a business partner and has made big money with the Singh Brothers. The rest of them are high paid employees, like Charan's son Cuckoo who works for Fortis Hospitals.

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Catherine, I think I'm grappling with the conditioning after my de-conversion. I left RS over a year and a half ago. As much as I'm enjoying my new found perspective, on some days, like an old habit, I find myself thinking along the conditioned patterns. But, I instinctively recognize it. I've never doubted my reasons to leave, though I have to admit, I do have my weak moments.

 

Fortunately, the older members in my family have been very supportive and have encouraged me to think for myself. On some level, they're quite confused themselves. We've talked about everything that I write here. Both my brothers are also ex-RS's, I'm very happy that our generation has made the shift. You're right, Gurinder is not crying. In fact, he's laughing, and all the way to the bank.

 

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Marina, it is early morning here, I read all your comments. On both the active threads, Osho Robbins has given you some valuable advise and Nietzsche has raised some interesting points as well. I agree with their thoughts. Here are some of my own :

 

Up until my de-conversion, I broke no RS rules. I was raised a lacto-vegetarian and so I was never tempted to eat meat. As most bakery items contained egg, those were firmly in the " not fit for consumption " category. But that was life as I knew it and it was wonderful while it lasted. My sense of security was intact and I felt loved and protected by Charan and Gurinder. I did not seek any answers because I had no questions.

 

I would sit in Q&A sessions and find it really funny when westerners would ask the Guru questions that he could not answer. I would feel bad for their lack of faith but hey, I wasn't even initiated ! By the time I was 21, I had unknowingly become a big ego ball with full " faith " in this " path " that had me more confused than I was aware of. I could hardly wait to get initiated and made important choices in life that were aligned with my RS belief system.

 

The vast amount of bull-crap I took from people was on the pre-text of the karma theory. On the rare occasions when I had conflicting feelings about the path, I would be hard on myself and felt terrible about it for days. As an adult I was afraid of the dark and couldn't sleep alone in a room. My inability to take confident decisions made me intellectually weak. I became hyper sensitive, yet extremely judgmental of others.

 

This path was the be-all and end-all of my life and my emotional dependence on the Guru increased after initiation. My inability to meditate made me extremely guilty and fearful of the outcome. As every month went by, the burden of not meditating at dawn frustrated me. I had mood swings and negative thoughts. I was advised by a senior RS member to restart my meditation seriously — to make it the top priority in my life.

 

I was momentarily relieved and for three months, I tried my best to meditate. I was physically uncomfortable, I saw nothing, heard nothing. One day, I made the conscious decision to quit the meditation. I realized that there was no point in doing something that did not come naturally to me. In my seeking years I used to think that I was a very special soul and that it would not take me long to reach Trikuti !

 

I was the RS idealist, partially because of my conditioning and partially because of a deep internal pull I had towards the path and the Masters. I don't know what that " pull " was, but strangely enough, I still feel that way for Charan sometimes.

 

After the short meditation stint, I tried chanting Shiva Mantras with my yoga teacher. He has a lovely voice and together we would sit in my garden and chant. The birds in the trees gave us company, my dogs chased the squirrels. I felt better. It was fulfilling. I continued to go to Satsang and did my Seva, but realised that the meditation was not for me. Each and every Satsangi that I spoke to, including a dozen preachers, candidly confessed that they were still waiting for the Guru's " grace " and were " struggling " with their meditation. However, almost all of them said that they were determined to be dutiful.

 

Ironically, my failure at Simran and Bhajan is not the reason I left RS Sant Mat. About two years ago, a chain of events unfolded that were simply too absurd to rationalize and were against the very grain of the philosophy that I had been brought up with. As my family was higher-up in the RS hierarchy, I was witness to a rather controversial set of issues that left the RS underbelly exposed.

 

I thought of myself as an adult for the first time and my heart said — NO. I've had no second thoughts. The withdrawal was never going to be easy, but I was prepared for it. Much has changed in my life, for the better.

 

Why am I sharing all of this ? Because I believe that if I could move on from Sant Mat, anyone can. All it takes is : 1. The understanding of Sant Mat 1.0 and a peek into Gurinder's 3.0 update. 2. The realization that being an RS initiate will change nothing in your life. 3. The self belief to face reality for what it is, without the Guru. 4. The courage to acknowledge that RS is / was a learning experience. 5. The willingness to voluntarily unlearn the indoctrinated. 6. The re-establishment of your own competence to judge. 7. The love and support of family and friends. ( And fellow bloggers ! ) 8. None of the above. You will know it when it happens.

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David, thanks for your kind words. Marina, this is for you too... :) I do believe in the existence of a supreme, a supreme truth. Well, most of the time ! Somewhere in my heart and head, I think I want to be a " believer " in something again. But then, ever since my departure from the RS philosophy, I feel that logic and reason have taken precedence over all things holy. I feel more connected with people, less fearful, less guilty.

 

The single most significant thing that happened to me after I left the RS path was that I learned to trust myself again. I lost my sense of God but I gained clarity of thought. I have to admit that I still have a lot of love for Charan, my family knew him well. He was like a grand-pa figure for me, a part of my childhood. That is why I don't try too hard to empty out all my feelings. My life has changed for the better. 

 

The reason I feel cheated is because I held the path so dearly, I felt like the faith that mattered to me most — just fell by the wayside. And, there was a great deal of mental conditioning as well, since childhood, so it hurt twice as much ! Letting go is ( and continues to be ) very difficult. Shedding a belief system is not easy, specially if you have believing family members !

 

But, I've learned to entertain thoughts without accepting them and so I can socialize with some Satsangis without an internal conflict.

 

You're right about the Guru Business, it is one big scam, a quicksand for the psyche. I thank my lucky stars that I had a streak of discernment in my otherwise brainwashed mindset ! Maybe I got a better view of things because I had read most of the RS literature at a very young age. I had a good sense of Sant Mat 1.0 quite early on in life. Then Gurinder came along, my world turned upside down.

 

But, I think Gurinder has been good for me. He set me free. I've tried a whole bunch of practices — pranic healing, reiki, hypnotherapy etc. Nothing " happens " to me other than feeling relaxed. I've not met a clairvoyant person. Yes, I've had a few telepathic and precognitive experiences, but that could be intuition or chance. I'm not sure. Isn't psychokinesis akin to magic ?

 

I was out with a bunch of friends the other day, and someone mentioned karma. I said that I don't believe in karma anymore, I think that the concept of karma is quite twisted. Then someone asked me, " How would you explain the death of a child ? " and I did not know what to say. ( ?? ) ut, I've learned to entertain thoughts without accepting them and so I can socialize with some Satsangis without an internal conflict.

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Marina, I'm sorry to hear about your son. I can now relate to your quest for the truth, from that perspective. I hope you find what you're looking for. I sincerely mean it. ***** ***** **

 

On a separate note, my thoughts follow from your comment above, they are — Gurinder has made a choice to " go along " with the literature, else the contents would have been edited. He's been the Guru for over two decades ! Book covers have changed, almost all of them, but the books remain intact with fables of fantasy, RS dogma and the explicit notion of the Master coming to " receive " the disciple at the moment of death.

 

For as long as RSSB continues to sell the unrevised literature, this is exactly what Gurinder is propagating. Whether he admits it himself or not, it is implied that he will " bring back and merge with God " each and every " marked soul " that has been initiated by him. Old fashioned literature for old fashioned times ? Well, does the " truth " change with the times then ? My guess is that Charan would think otherwise.

 

Marina, Gurinder's " good logical reasoning " is comforting, but what does the Satsangi go back to when Gurinder charming little talk is over ? The meditation cushion in the corner and the thumb in the ear — its back to the books. The only reason we are told to mediate is that we are supposed to make a divine connection with Sat Purush through Simran and Bhajan, in this lifetime. That we will " experience " what is written in the books.

 

Now Gurinder fondly talks about the ONENESS and says that there are no " regions " as such, just planes of consciousness. How modern ! But, where is Sach Khand then ? On one hand you have Gurinder telling you to not eat rennet and on the other he tells you that no one will come at the time of passing. What's going on ?

 

I come from a fourth generation of RS believers where I was fed on a diet of Sant Mat 1.0 and Charan never split hairs about pecorino and parmigiano ! I was not joking about what I said about wine and shellfish ! Gurinder actually told someone I know that he should focus on his business and meditate when he finds time. We interpret more than we need to.

 

Sometimes, when he says " do what you want " he's probably just ( humanly ) fed up and means that he really wouldn't care about whether I'm having a chianti or a pinot noir. I agree, it must be incredibly difficult being in his position. It is a very difficult role. But then, why impose more rules ?

 

I know Satsangis' who mouthwateringly gawk when I dig into a slice of margherita. But sure, the more I give up for my Guru, the more expectations he sets up — for me, for you, for the entire following. And, then he embarks on a dogma-bashing trip at a Q and A session, turning Sant Mat 1.0 on its head and leaving people dangerously confused.

 

I sense from your comments that Gurinder is probably your first RSSB Guru. Well, to cut it short, you probably know little about his financial adventures. The Gurinder that you know is the " Guru Cool " and we all tend to believe what someone smart, dynamic and rich has to say. But when I run Sant Mat V-1.0 through Gurinder's financial beginnings, his involvement with the Singh Brothers, his facade of austerity, his actual net worth — my Mac has major incompatibility issues. ( Can someone help, please ! 

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Marina, from your above comment it seems like you have a flirtation with Sant Mat. The die-hard RSSB initiate thinks otherwise. Good for you ! Okay, Gurinder is lightening up a little, but what has really changed ? Will he announce the up-gradations of RS Sant Mat himself and debunk the pile of outdated RS literature ? ( We both know that this is never going to happen ! )

 

You say — " I personally have no problems with SM versions updating as ‘times are a changing’ and anyway, what can be said of the truth ? As MirDard says - Speech at best is an honest lie. ” MirDard is " spiritual " mumbo jumbo, but it becomes skewed mumbo jumbo when the RS publication department is given the task to decode the poet's musings.

 

Gurinder is ( according to the RS doctrine ) the Param Sant Sat Guru who is the only person / GIHF on earth who has a connection with Sat Purush. Isn't this basic pretext of the RS mission in line for a minor tweak ? You say — " Don’t need to be splitting hairs over eggs / cheese rennet. " Wrong. Says who ? Gurinder himself added rennet to the forbidden list. The obeying Sangat was merrily eating pizza before that tenet came into play. And, an egg-glazed croissant is a still a big boo-boo. Food label scrutiny is an art that has been perfected by the younger generation of the UK Sangat.

 

You say — " He told me I could do what I wanted but advised me not to give up my simran. " Wow ! Astonishing indeed. You can " do what you want " in HIS words ? Really ? You're a lucky chic ! So I assume it would be okay if I had half a bottle of merlot and chargrilled prawns before I sit down to meditate ? ( Sant Mat 4.0 ! )

 

You say — " He also said when talking to me that we westerners are full of concepts. Like believing it will take four lifetimes, master will meet us after death. I was a bit shocked at that last part. " I'm happy that another RS Satsangi has put this on record. And, if RS is not one big concept in itself, then let's all get to see a two minute sneak peek into the lands of Sach Khand. I'd also like to know where my Grandfather is.

 

You say — " At another point during the conversation he said that Hector was writing a new book on concepts and illusions. " Well, I guess the RS literature will have another confusing two hundred or more pages. Or maybe, those are the cats ears, if Gurinder has decided to let the cat out of the bag ! ( I've seen it coming for a while. )

 

You say — " Regarding how much money BJ has, it doesn’t bother me. I don’t see any wrong in acquiring money and I would like to know his skills in the stock market. "

Marina, I've not been able to comprehend the above. Wouldn't you care to find out how Gurinder has made large sums of money after he became the RS Guru ? Have you read Honest Living ? So, is it okay to profiteer from the RSSB-Trust money ? Is it okay to structure your financial clout in such a way that the average Satsangi will think that the Guru has a small farming business ? Is it okay to hide your wealth ?

 

There is nothing wrong in the Guru acquiring money, but there is everything wrong in the Guru acquiring money by the means that the Guru himself preaches against. And, Gurinder has no special hands-on stock market skills. He has hired professionals to do the job for him. Your story about the little boy taking a walk in the woods is at best — cute. When it comes to defining my eating habits and committing to a rigorous meditation practice for a lifetime, I would much rather prefer a Guru who doesn't beat around the bush.

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TonyM, as you know, none of Gurinder's talks / discourses / Q & A's are recorded so that gives him the added advantage of being happily inconsistent. These are cult strategies, too bad the Sangat knows nothing about what goes on behind closed doors. Mystics don't manufacture their following like hand-cut potato chips, the enlightened one ( if there is such a thing ) is probably perched atop a glacier with a mountain hawk for company.

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Osho, Gurinder does comes across rather liberal in his talks. If he preaches about the ONENESS, then why doesn't he edit the RS literature once and for all, and get rid of the GIHF tagline ? With all that alleged "modernization" of the sect, did he overlook the literature erroneously ?

 

IMO, there is a well constructed strategy in place. Gurinder must look like a charming liberal philosopher when followers hear him talk in person. Everyone likes a charismatic, open-minded guy on stage. But once the session is over, people are left with the hardline fundamentalism in the contradicting literature.

 

Add to that the peddling representatives and you've got utter confusion ! In Q & A sessions, what are the chances of him replying straightforwardly to a quoted paragraph from an RS book that needs explanation to the seeker ? Slim. Slimmer than seeing the light. I'd expect the question to be dodged into oblivion and the questioner will probably feel like a deer in the headlights. A subtle cacophony of jeers will follow and that's how the " Do Not Question " rule comes into play. ( That is just so crazy ! )

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Jay, I actually have more of a life after I shed my RS belief system - I think I have more clarity of thought and I'm not as fearful as I used to be. My holy little " spiritual ego " went for a toss and that was a very humbling experience. It felt good to know that I was just another ordinary person and I could connect with others without an air of superiority or pretense. I realized that just by being on a spiritual path does not make you a better person, you have to work quite hard at improving yourself. Life is organic. Change is good. I now seek ways to make my present fulfilling without worrying too much about the future. The biggest lesson ? " I don't know " brings you back to the drawing-board.

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No discussions on the internet. Period. No discussions about spiritual experiences with fellow initiates. No questioning the Master about ( his ) materialistic life in Q & A sessions. — — Many things are forbidden, the list goes on. Then you're expected to be content in the darkness of a rigorous morning meditation — for the rest of your life and be fearful and guilty along the way. Where there are too many dictates, there can be no feeling of bliss.

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Hello DAS SA - I read your comment and meant to reply to it earlier but life has been rather hectic and blogging has taken a bit of a backseat... :) Well, I've heard many, many similar stories. But, then I've also seen ( first-hand ) how clueless Gurinder was when my grandfather passed !

 

I think when people devote a lifetime to something that promises redemption in the end, people are committed to believing in what they were conditioned to believe. I think it is more of a wish, a belief that " the Master has come " and maybe a way of re-assuring themselves that a " Sach Khand " awaits. Besides, if the Radha Soami path is actually a " Science of the Soul " as they claim it is, then at least a few things should be demonstrable by the Master himself.

 

Gurinder has always discouraged the notion of the Master coming to get the disciple at the time of death and has even said " no one comes " to an ( aghast ) audience on a few occasions, which is later interpreted by the faithful as a sign to up the meditation meter. I have often mentioned on the blog that even when it comes down to this " worldly life " as they call it, it is evident that Gurinder is running RSSB like a business and his own personal life is a testimony to that, so I think that this entire " spiritual trip " is one hell of a wild goose chase.

 

But maybe, when one has put years of meditation, has seen nothing, has continued to believe and thinks that he / she has had " purpose " to life, then the individual is probably satisfied with their own efforts, which has always been the focus of the RS belief-system : it is what you give, not what you get. So that sense of satisfaction of a life lived by the principles and dictates of the RS philosophy can culminate into an overwhelming sense of an " Ah ! Ha ! " moment before they pass — my guess is that it probably is a feeling of victory, like winning a race. Of course, there probably wasn't any race to run.

 

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A quick look at RSSB's Haynes Park outfit in the UK confirms what Jon has said above — the westerners are a diminishing lot amongst the congregation. A slew of young ( eighteen-something ) spiritual enthusiasts have taken up ranks amongst the Seva-doers. These new-kids-on-the-block ( almost all of them are Indian ) demonstrate a fanatic-like love for Gurinder.

Wayne, head of the publishing department at the Dera had once told me of the impending " change of strategy " that would include newer " markets " for furthering the mission. If the westerners have thinned out at one end, a large Chinese contingent has marched in on the other. It is February and at this time of the year, a few hundred Chinese seekers will go to Beas. They'll take over the international guest house kitchen and serve up veggie dim-sums and other tofu-infused fare to fellow international Satsangi's as well. They'll sing Chinese shabads and those " marked " for initiation will be initiated in Mandarin / Cantonese !

 

I've heard that the Chinese don't question very much and are a very obedient lot. As one website put it : " India - A land featuring 7.4 million Gods, countless Godmen and infinite worshippers… "

 

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I met another one of Gurinder's old friends, a gentleman who now lives in Scotland. He told me that he was shocked when he learnt of his Guru-friends' recent wealth !

 

He also added that Moga ( as Gurinder is fondly called by his pre-guru-days friends' circle ) is living on the edge with his growing tide of greed and that land-grabbing has now become a common RSSB practice.

Believers, your " Master " is a fraud — that's as simple as it is. Much exploitation is possible in the name of " spirituality " and for the sake of the millions of followers who bow to his pretentious backside, I wish that this cult comes crashing down and Gurinder has no where to hide.

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Kabir Advani - People who are brainwashed by cult practices almost always find a way to rationalize and justify the obvious fallacies and malpractices within the cult. It is a part of expressing what you will call " unshakeable faith " in the the cult. In your case - RSSB. I know my facts well, you're simply dismissing them as " conclusions " because you are auto-conditioned not to question.

The " fact " remains that Gurinder has said himself " We are a spiritual mission, not a charitable one... " And, just FYI, the Dera Hospital caters to a fraction of the people who need eye-surgery and I'm more than aware that it is free of cost ! How do you know that things are " safer and better " at the Sawan Singh Charitable Hospital ? Do you know someone who has had one surgery at the eye-camp and then another at the Sawan Singh Charitable Hospital ?

 

The eye-camps were as safe or as unsafe as the procedures being performed at the Sawan Singh Charitable Hospital. So, when RSSB cuts off a large scale charitable activity, cult members like you begin to think that it was unsafe ? Aa ha. With the kind of money that RSSB has and Gurinder has personally, there should have been five, well organized eye camps for the poor. Charan pulled it off successfully for years, and now with all the healthcare developments in India and the Guru's extended family in the healthcare business ( Fortis ) instead of stepping up the ante, Gurinder decided to shut it down.

 

Now, if you can give your opinion on the following three questions, this discussion may be worth pursuing... 01. What do you think about Gurinder's Religare involvement ? 02. Why is Gurinder so interested in swelling the RSSB asset corpus ? 03. Why does Gurinder scorn upon charity, when RSSB money-boxes continue to collect pennies from the poor ? I'd appreciate a logical answer, even if it comes from an RS injected perspective. Just don't quote some random prose from Nanak and interpret it ! That would be quite lame indeed. You've already said that I will " come back " as a worm or a snake, so I've had enough dogma... :)

 

Tara said:

Nietzsche, this comment has turned out rather essay-ish, enjoy !

 

RSSB Land Encroachment: The article you have posted clearly points out that RSSB had "encroached" upon the land in Mohali. It states:"RSSB had first come up with the land-exchange offer on September 13, 2007 and met Punjab Chief Minister Parkash Singh Badal."

 

Gurinder is very well connected with politicians in Punjab, especially those from the current ruling party. It makes sense as most "deras" or Living Guru out-posts in Punjab have huge followings (RSSB being the largest) and these devotees are the vote banks for political parties. Political visits into the RSSB Dera at Beas are a common sight before local and national elections. The Guru-Politician relationship is a mutually benefiting alliance, they need each other - the politician needs votes and in return RSSB can swing a land-deal in its favor.

 

(I would like to add that most Satsangis are in denial about RSSB's land encroachments and they will simply dismiss media reports as "lies" which goes to show how close-minded RS community members are. Time and again reports of illegal encroachments / land-dealings crop up with reference to RSSB and I have found the information correct on all occasions.)

Familial Ties / Religare: Gurinder is Charan's nephew (his sister's son) and back in the day, Charan had nothing to do with Dr. Parminder Singh's (his son-in-law) fortunes. Nimmie (Charan's daughter) had a rather turbulent relationship with her husband (Dr. Parminder Singh) and Charan was often involved in resolving their marital issues. Towards the end Nimmie and Parminder were living separately.

In Charan's guru-days, Gurinder was just another member of the extended family. The Grewal's (Charan's family) and the Dhillon's (Gurinder's family) were not very close, nor were Gurinder and Nimmie (cousins). But, Charan was always very fond of Gurinder, who was (at that time) a simple man from a modest financial background, dedicated to his Guru Uncle.

Gurinder was working at the Hyatt Regency, New Delhi (as an Assistant Food & Beverage Manager there) and his career wasn't exactly going places. It was Charan who lined up a job for him with the Bilani's in Spain and Gurinder would scour China / HK and other Asian countries for watch parts. From a job in a hotel to a billionaire businessman? Like they say, you've come a long way baby... :)

Dr. Parminder Singh was an industry captain and a visionary exemplar. A lot changed after his demise in 1999. His sons (Malvinder and Shivinder) were very young and inexperienced at the time, and Ranbaxy was being run by a group of professionals headed by D.S Brar (then MD & CEO, a non-family member) who was instrumental (along with Dr. Singh) in transforming Ranbaxy from a small Indian pharmaceutical company into a research-based global pharmaceutical major.

The disagreements over Ranbaxy's international expansion strategy between Brar and the family surfaced in 2002 and Brar exited before the end of his term, leaving what happened behind the boardroom doors a mystery. An analyst, commenting on the Ranbaxy succession planning issue, said - "The question, however, uppermost in most people's mind is: (that) does the decision reflect a tussle between the promoter and professional management in which the promoter eventually had his way." Initially,

Gurinder was just playing an advisory role to the Singh Brothers. Soon, that "advisory role" turned into a full-time consultancy of sorts and it was soon heard that Malvinder & Shivinder "don't make a move" without HIS advise.

That "HIS" was Gurinder - a backstage operator in Ranbaxy's succession that led to Malvinder quickly taking up the post of MD & CEO in what was once a professionally run company. In the months that followed, Gurinder and the Singh Brothers became inseparable when it came to taking business decisions. Then in December 2005, Gurinder announced to his family and close friends that he will not be giving business advise to any one after the turn of the year!

 

Who knows, maybe the Singh brother's thought of "including" him in some way and it was around that time Fortis was launched as a financial services company, which was then re-named Religare... (I can bet this name was Gurinder's pick, the definition of Religare is mentioned somewhere on the RSSB website in an essay with reference to religion and spirituality.)

 

Gurinder is very shrewd, it would take a very smart person to do what he is doing. Keeping everyone's faith while making a great deal of money is not something that all of us can pull off. Of course, he has an added advantage of playing "God" so he gets away unquestioned and unscrutinized. I doubt if Dr. Parminder Singh would have approved of any of this.

 

Charan Singh (Parminder's father-in-law) was not his business advisor! It is common knowledge that Ranbaxy and RSSB were separate entities during Charan's tenure - one was into the pharma business while the other was into the God business... In fact, Charan had his hands full with the politics within the Dera and wholly discouraged any kind of business association with himself or RSSB trust.

If you take a look into the Ranbaxy archives, there is no trace of Gurinder or any of his immediate family members being associated to Ranbaxy or to Dr. Parminder Singh and Nimmie Singh in any way - through employment, through shareholding, through inheritance.

The fact that one of Charan's two sons is working in Fortis today (you can confirm this on the Fortis website, his name is Jasbir Grewal aka Cuckoo) and has no shareholding in either Religare or Fortis clearly shows that Charan did not take advantage of his familial relationships, else shouldn't his son be richer than his nephew ( Gurinder ) today? I would also like to add here that Gurinder and his sons are the only family members who are shareholders in the Singh brothers' businesses. It is not like there is a consortium of familial relations managing these companies.

Relatives are employed, but share-holding has been reserved only for the Guru and his sons. I can tell you for certain that no uncle or aunt of Gurinder had gifted him the initial capital (millions of dollars) to invest in Religare. Gurinder comes from a humble past, and for those who think that he has hectares "farmland" it may be good to know a fact - Gurinder and his immediate family are not agricultural industrialists of Punjab. A few acres of wheat and mustard produce cannot buy pre-issued shares in a global financial services company!

If you read the Religare prospectus, the shares were transferred to his sons at a pre-issue price of INR 10 before the IPO was launched. Like I said in my earlier comment, I see no reason for the Singh Brothers to part with the shareholding if there wasn't something in it for them.

 

That is why, IMO, the RSSB trust-funds cross-holdings with Religare is not such a smokin' conspiracy theory after all. I do not think that Gurinder and his family are directly siphoning out money from the RSSB trust. However, there is an institution in place (Religare) which manages the RSSB trust-funds, and in turn helps the Guru and his family profiteer from it. It is a legal v/s moral issue and if you look at this from a pure " Sant Mat " perspective, all of it looks terribly wrong!

This is not your average Wall Street banker we're discussing, this is GIHF - the Perfect Living Master, the Param Sant Sat Guru of Kalyug. The plethora of RS teachings now looks like a bigger pile of BS ! What ever happened to " Honest Living " I wonder... Gurinder's younger son - Gurkirat Singh Dhillon is the youngest billionaire on the Indian Billionaires List. The children of other billionaires are the inheritors of business legacies or are first-generation entrepreneurs - their success stories are a Google search away.

 

Gurinder's older son lives in a posh apartment in Mayfair, London. Has he earned it, or is it a by-product of having a Guru-dad ? My concern is for the poor villager who takes out his INR 10 to put into the RSSB money-box. That INR 10 could also buy him another meal. Something to think about - specially when salvation does not seem to be happening.

 

Well, I don't think we'll find Gurinder absconding one day, my guess is that he may head out in an autonomous direction (the signs are already there) and may even renunciate his leadership and Guru-status in the years to come. This may be a long shot, but like all things RSSB - it will be well orchestrated and the Sangat will be satisfied.

 

Tara said:

SKat, Please read http://business.in.com/printcontent/932 and that should put the real facts in line. If Ranbaxy was all that cash rich, why did they sell out ? So, they sold the golden goose for ten thousand golden eggs ? Really ? Was it the current trend of intensifying generic competition and increased government regulation that got to them ?

It is common knowledge that Ranbaxy became debt-free after the deal and got $1 billion in cash to pursue inorganic growth opportunities more aggressively. It is also common knowledge that Parminder Singh would have wholly disapproved of Malvinder's business approach. Back in the day, Ranbaxy had one of the renowned R&D departments in the pharmaceutical sector. Many patents on drugs were about to expire industry wide, which would have allowed other pharma companies to innovate and produce products at lower costs.

The Daiichi-Ranbaxy deal was valued at 4.3 times sales and 21 times EBITDA on historical earnings. Malvinder wouldn't have got a better catch than Daiichi. He got the Japanese - hook, line and sinker ! And, the Parkway Hospital in-and-out deal was the only option as a bidding war with Khazanah would have bled them. Nothing wrong with a " good deal " though Corporate India did expect the Singh brothers to resist ! Instead, Malvinder came back with all bags packed and a neat pile of money.

From your comment it seems likely that you probably know that RSSB trust funds were ( and continue to be diverted ) to Religare. Do you see another reason for the Guru's two sons being shareholders ? What was Gurinder's financial status prior to becoming the Guru ? Of course, you don't have to answer this, but I'm sure that if you know the Head of Treasury and Head of Finance at Religare, you know the truth.

 

And, in this case, they more than hint about the Guru's involvement. It is all very risky, and you probably also know that that if this is publicly proved, it may spell disaster for the RSSB cult. By the way ( as tAo well noted ) we at the Church of the Churchless had nothing to do with the near-collapse of the global banking system ! Gurinder is a bigger fraud than all those bankers combined and he hails from our land. Besides, how different are the business practices of Mukesh Ambani, Malvinder Singh and co. in this country for you to be pulling out a fair-play card ?

 

Tara said:

A delayed response by ( maybe ) another " vituperative scorned lover " but, regardless, I do believe I have a reason to write what I write here... Bayarearetrofit says - Members of this blog forget that Gurinder has built numerous charitable hospitals where the public can get medical care free of charge. Reply - Which " numerous " hospitals are you referring to ?

The Sawan Singh Charitable Hospital was built by Charan Singh, which presently is in a serious need of a medical and infrastructural refurbishment. Which hospital has Gurinder built ? He shut down the Dera hospital and Charan's annual eye-camp. What are you talking about ?

On the other hand, the Singh Brothers ( Malvinder & Shivinder ) can use their pocket change to upgrade the Sawan Singh Charitable Hospital. After all, (1) they are the promoters of Fortis - one of the largest healthcare operators in India (2) the hospital was an integral part of their grandfather's charitable legacy (3) they are supposed to give one-tenth of their income to charity, as stated in the RS doctrine.

With the kind of money that Gurinder and his relatives have, their charitable endeavors are a real pittance. Bayarearetrofit says - After the earthquake in Sri Lanka, the Dera sent thousands of sevadars and money to build schools. He even went there to supervise the operation and refused photo ops.

Reply - About two months ago, a devastating flood hit the region of Ladakh leaving thousands of people homeless and with a dire need of the essentials - food, medicines and warm clothing. National NGO's, disaster management groups and international agencies set up relief operations immediately. Beas nodded and the nearest local wing of RSSB pitched their tents. Like an automated program, representatives took up positions and volunteers lined up - the RSSB relief camp was up and going. They served tea and biscuits, gave temporary shelter and basic medical care to a fairly large group of flood victims.

A couple of weeks later, a whisper went around - Babaji is coming ! Things went into overdrive. The fervor reached fever pitch when Gurinder's private charter touched down at the Leh airport. The media was close at hand. Gurinder marched to the RSSB shelter and talked to some of the flood victims. He had tea, then made a few suggestions to the RSSB representatives.

 

( An RS entourage was busy keeping the shutterbugs at bay, while another one made sure that no one " came too close " to Gurinder. Several local policemen and the Guru's personal security were deployed for his safety and the smooth run of the planned itinerary. )

 

Later he was whisked away in a convoy. The RS followers were left charged and darshan-soaked. Some started to weep with joy, others got into a tiered huddle and gazed unblinkingly at the leaving car with folded hands, a few ran behind the vehicle... For a moment you seem to forget that this is a relief camp in Ladakh. It kind of irks me when " Seva " takes on a religious flavor like this. The grief stricken face of a mountain villager does not seem to stir the souls of many, but the presence of an alleged GIHF brings out a torment of emotions amongst the RS following.

Also, IMO, like politicians visits, GIHF visits are actually a hindrance for any kind of serious relief work. Well, it is a good thing to gather a hundred people for a nobel cause that serves humanity, but how much of this should be credited to Gurinder ? I mean, it would be interesting to know how much Gurinder has given from his own personal wealth to the RSSB shelter or to the flood victims in Ladakh.

The RSSB trust funds are the collective contributions from the Sangat, so if the trust funds are used, it is the Sangat's benevolence. People tend to attribute too much to the Guru, how much of a role does he play in all of this besides being the poster-boy in who's name they erect the tent ? Does he lead by example by braving the chill and helping out with the chores ? He doesn't !

A bunch of brave hearts who tirelessly serve their fellowmen in distress are honorable people, while their feudal Master comes along and just laps it all up... Temporary charitable blips on the RSSB map do not substitute for a full-time humanitarian initiative - one that RSSB can easily afford. The eye-camp was a huge expense and an organizational task, it is now obvious that Gurinder prefers occasional activities. These flashes of compassion do not negate his fallacy, greed for land and corporate ambitions.

Besides, the RSSB management will ensure that they get the required mileage from this activity to maintain their charitable status with the taxmen, while countrywide, followers will drop their jaws in awe at the humility and love expressed by their Guru on this trip... Bayarearetrofit says - He travels everywhere trying meeting with his disciples at great personal discomfort. Reply - Did you hear that the RSSB Guru traveled by train amidst the hymn-singing Sangat in Punjab ? That was Sawan.

Gurinder travels only private jet within India. Overseas, it is first class or private charter again. A pristine white elevator ( Schindler ) is installed at the Beas residence that takes Gurinder from level 0 to level 1. The same elevator is installed at his sprawling new residence in Delhi, which is on the outskirts of the Chattarpur area, very close to the main Satsang grounds. This farmhouse has been named " Basera " translated as " The Abode " and is a three-acre property.

Abroad, Gurinder stays at well-maintained RSSB estates or in the best hotels. In India, his private cooks travel with him on the Satsang tour. He has staff that serves him round-the-clock in every part of the world he visits. Gurinder enjoys all the mod-cons of the high-life. The air conditioning is always kept at a cool 18 to 20 degrees for him. I could go on...

 

Well, how really discomforting is any of the above ? Bayarearetrofit says - His staff commented that he did not sleep under the same roof more than three days in a row for over 8 months while on tour, which is most of the time. Reply - He has to work hard for the donations which tend to be on an upswing when he is visiting. But he is not " on-tour " most of the time. Like all of us, Gurinder has his fair share of " time-off " from the official RSSB calendar.

 

There is a summer house in Simla ( a hill station in India in the Himanchal region ) where he takes an annual break in the company of friends and family. ( A couple of years ago starlet Kareena Kapoor and her RS boyfriend Shahid had been invited to the Simla residence. ) The regular holidays are detours from U.K. and Spain and a number of trips to Hong Kong where he has other business interests.

Bayarearetrofit says - He recently helped write and publish a book on misogynous practices in India, such as physical and emotional abuse, enslavement, etc. The book is called something like "Rise Up Women" and is meant to provide abused women resources to get out of abusive relationships.

Reply - A book that expresses an ideology and exposes the plight of women is not the same as a book that catalogues a mission's role and achievement in that sphere. We can all preach a ton of stuff, and that is exactly what Gurinder does - talk. But what is he actually doing about it ? Nothing.

Gurinder is also majorly encouraging organ donation. Has he contributed in any way, or is RSSB affiliated to any of the agencies that are finding solutions to the ground-water contamination issues that are the root cause of organ damage in Punjab ? No. Does he / RSSB facilitate organ transplant and take responsibility ? No. Does he visit donors and recipients ? No. Does he / RSSB give even partial monetary support ? No. So all his apparent " concerns " then are just his personal PR and strategic marketing campaigns for the RSSB mission, nothing else. A significant abusive relationship is the Guru-disciple relationship within RSSB but that would be the subject of another comment.

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noiZ... Hi, I meant to reply to you earlier, I just got lost somewhere between multiple windows on my Mac ! I'm happy to learn that you enjoy the comments I post. Well, mine is a long story, a sad one - debunking a belief system that I was brought up with was very painful experience. I come from a fourth generation of RS believers, though we're Sikh by descent. Most of my family and our relatives are now on the fringes of the RS faith.

I was recommended by a therapist in London to blog about my thoughts, as discussions about RSSB are discouraged within RS social circles. I've not considered cataloging my views and experiences. Besides, I live in India most of the time so RSSB may want to " deal " with me in a way they think is appropriate. I find blogging therapeutic ( from my standpoint ) and entertaining. I also feel that it helps me cope in the real world... :)

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Reply to Nobody : Part 1 Nobody says - " More than 80% of the people who post are from the US. " " This should be clear to the reader. " Maybe. But ( please check with Brian ) there are probably a larger number who tune in just to read ( the RSSB related comments ) from Mumbai and New Delhi in India. My comment above was directed at one of my ( ex ) RS group's I met at a social gathering. They were discussing this blog. How often does a blog become the only topic of conversation for thirty people and keeps them animated for over three hours ?

 

Okay. First things first. I think you're rather confused about the true tenets of Sant Mat. I'm going to step in to make a few corrections : Nobody says - " I am happy that, apparently, my guru is a millionaire... "

 

Reply --- He also sells a book titled " Honest Living " and I doubt if you have read that. Initiates are expected to overcome the evils of ( lobh and moh ) greed and attachment. Is he living by the principles that he preaches ? If Gurinder has a clear road-map to his millions, there should be transparency and disclosure. And, is he giving 1/10th of his Religare earnings to charity as prescribed by the theology ?

 

I'm not unhappy that he is a millionaire, I'm just surprised that he became a millionaire after he became the Guru. Nobody says - " He's got naam and he's got cash... " Reply --- This world ( pinda ) is an illusion ( maya ) and followers are instructed to refrain from any extremity that may hinder spiritual progress. The Perfect Living Master is projected as an ascetic figure.

 

From an RS perspective, the Guru is above materialism and is sole purpose to live on this earth amongst us mortals is to help us break free from the cycle of ( chaurasi ) birth and death. He is a savior of souls. Where do corporate ambitions figure in all of this ? Nobody says - 

 

"And I hope the Sant Mat religion grows and grows and grows and grows and grows and I wish it takes over the whole wide world... " Reply --- Sant Mat is a spiritual philosophy, not a religion. It is considered to be a step above conventional religion and is the privilege of a select few only - the ' chosen ones ' who constitute 1/10th of the creation. So no, according to RSSB, it cannot ' take-over ' the world, their disclaimer would be a fallacy then.

 

Nobody says - " At least people will stop eating meat and killing each other... " Reply --- You're into organic food, right ? Its seems like you take your food habits very seriously, but don't mix vegetarianism with RS propaganda - there is no restriction on buying an ostrich-leather bag, but you cannot have pecorino. Ouch ! I've never tasted meat and I continue to be vegetarian, but what's wrong with eating meat if one desires to ?

 

I personally know a dozen " vegetarian crooks " in the RS community. I also personally know a salmon devouring gentleman who left 25000 USD ( when he went back to Chicago ) to an old Sikh driver who had served him for ten years. Being a good human and eating meat are not interrelated ! And, people are not ' killing each other ' in general. There are militant outfits in different parts of the world, but by and large this world is a good place, and mostly we're safe from harm.

 

Nobody says - " A guru or whatever you want to call him may even OH MY GOD have sex OMG have sweaty sex ? YES. " Reply --- No. The RS guru is supposed to embrace celibacy ( according to the dictates of the doctrine ) after he becomes the Param Sant Sat Guru. His wife sleeps in a separate room and becomes a ' dasi ' or a humble servitor to her husband. But, maybe the Guru's do get horny, who knows ? Sweaty sex - I doubt it ! Spiritual orgasms - maybe... :)

 

Nobody says - " He may even be polygamist and have many wives. " Reply --- Eh ! Seriously, where did you get that one from ? Its clearly outlined at the time of initiation that except for one's spouse, all members from the opposite sex must be looked upon as brothers / sisters. And, sex out of wedlock is strictly prohibited. Do you remember your vows ? Are you confusing RS with Islam ? Who initiated you ? Have you ever read an RS book ?

Nobody says - " His role as a guru is social... His role as a guru is spiritual... Both at the same time... and without a certain pattern that fits moral or ethical laws. " Reply --- Whoa ! Without a certain pattern that fits moral or ethical laws ? Are you kidding ? OMG, please read Philosophy of the Masters Vol. 1-5, Spiritual Letters and Quest for Light. The blokes at RSSB will be mighty unhappy when they read your interpretation of Sant Mat.

 

Tara said:

Juan, Like I said, that is what Gurinder told me ! What if he was in another city in India or Europe or anywhere else - I don't know where he was. But, I'm certain of what he told me, and it was about a ' surprising ' phone call that he received which told him that he had been appointed as the new Guru.

Like ' miracles ' and other such stuff, I always noticed how things were sensationalized. I don't mean this in a gossipy way, but my personal experiences have led me to believe that there really are not two but many versions of what actually happens / happened. Then, there's another dimension to it - the Master works in mysterious ways. ( Well, I don't buy that one anymore. ) Thanks for your version though !

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Some thoughts come to mind in what otherwise would have been an uncomplicated reply to a comment posted by Nietzsche | August 12, 2010 at 04:02 AM. I touch upon ( particularly ) the mindset of the upper-class of Indian RS followers, followed by my take on promoting Shabad Yoga in the West.

This comment goes out to those Indian RS-followers who regularly visit this blog, but are too chicken to leave a comment of their own as they selectively filter and obey, according to convenience, the ' rules ' from Beas. You guys, you know who you are and its quite amusing to hear you yap on about this site socially, over red-bulls and virgin mojitos. ( Cheers ! )

I picked up the Mint Lounge a day before Independence Day and would like to quote parts of the weekend edition that are relevant to this discussion and for the benefit of the RS social group I'm referring to : " Article 19/1/A from the Indian Constitution - It ensures you are free to express yourself, but within ' reasonable restrictions ' so how free does that make us ?

The fun of old fashioned rail and rant is rare these days. It does not involve mouse-click nirvana. It involves risk for all involved - the editor, the publisher or other equivalent mediator who provides the medium; the medium itself; and of course, the writer, thinker or rabble-rouser. The time for reaction is longer and the ripple effect, wider. On Twitter and Facebook as banal as they are addictive and liberating, opinions flash, scream and fade.

We celebrate the old and new kinds of free speech. It's a freedom, the lack of which we remember every other day. Our right to freedom of expression in the Constitution has ' reasonable restrictions ' - the ' reasonable ' often bordering on the bizarre - something irks somebody all the time. If you laugh at Indianness, you are booed. If you have a mind, you are stupid and deserve to be called names. Indians tolerate arguments and opinions as long as they're about cricket, Bollywood or a few other things such as ' chai ' and mangoes.

Laws protecting free speech are an apology. Discussion about religion is out of bounds... One of the facts that emerges is the Indian tendency to self-censor. I am convinced that we speak less than what the law allows us to. A few bear the brunt of restricting laws and outdated ideologues. Are we a republic of silence ? " When I read this introduction, I thought to myself... " Freedom of expression is one thing, the complete lack of opinion - quite another. "

I was reminded of some RS initiates, most of whom don't even have an opinion that stretches beyond the cliched dogma they begin to parrot every time someone raises a valid point that questions Gurinder's recent behavior. To what degree can people become consenting puppets to a Guru who they know and agree is in the wrong never ceases to amaze me. Here is what I have to say to them - Your basic faculty of discerning right from wrong seems to have fallen through a crack in the floorboards.

If you do not object to the existence of an elitist, fraudulent Guru then the objection to the institution ( RSSB ) is superficial and the consequences are inevitable - Religare, a tightly sealed RS trust, the shutdown of charities, the emergence of RS fanaticism... The debate should be at a much more fundamental level - about what the existence of such a patriarchal institution means and not merely about who suffers at the hands of them and the resulting chaos that stems from it.

It may also be a better idea to quit debating Gurinder's Religare involvement if you cannot step on to an open forum and present your views. Stop inquiring and gossiping in hushed whispers and step out of the closet if you must, you enjoy the stuff that I post anyway ! Tell me what you think, because you are indulging in it, just offline. Damn, your stories had me rolling my eyes in disbelief...

One of you said " If you pick up the Dera and place it in Europe or America, its feudalistic hierarchy will invite the attention of human rights activists ! " So, you continue to believe in the " philosophy " maybe ? You're having a spiritual hang-over from your grandparents' Sant Mat days ? I understand that, I felt the same way for a long time...

At first, I discounted my feelings as just another source of fear, uncertainty, and doubt, but having gone past my initial apprehension of being wrong, I'm going to say that it was at the very least quite thought-stimulating. It took me over a year and a half to discover and discard all my conditioning. I knew it would not be easy... ( This part relates to Nietzsche's comment. Bringing Shabad Yoga to the West. )

RS originated and is headquartered in India, so until people from this side of the world stand up and have an opinion, RSSB will continue to be a profitable export to the West and will thrive in India by silently raking in money from the multitudes of uneducated, gullible villagers that it brainwashes in its fold. Overseas, RSSB projects a much mellower, " liberal " image and blends into the cultural ethos of the region.

 

Across the world, believers are kind, well-meaning people who have been meticulously led astray. So as long as us, educated Indians, continue to suck up to GS and his type, these pastors will incessantly feed off God's people. Freedom of mind is needed to reduce harms caused by long term ( cult ) mind control, and the first step towards that freedom is to have an opinion and " question " what you think is questionable.

 

Well, ( back to my ) lovely ladies and blessed gentlemen from the round table - Let's stop being hypocritical. Do you really wake up at 4am to meditate ? I don't think so. Most of your " social conversations " indirectly propagate vegetarianism while you insistingly pass around the pork sui mai, then turn around and ask for a quick change of plate if someone accidentally picks up a mushroom with their " contaminated " fork. How terribly crazy is that ?

 

You're seriously confused and rely too heavily on your eggless cakes as an indictor of spiritual progress. Most of you have never returned a greeting to the office guard who holds the door for you every morning. Your kids flaunt a " I'm more special than you " attitude with other kids at school and are still spoon-fed by their nannies. Do you really give 1/10 of your earnings to charity ? When is the last time you gave a medical allowance to your driver or some chocolates for his kids ? Do you think that by just being " vegetarian " you've become virtuous and humane ?

 

So, the next time you attend an RS-Satsang and come back raving about all the wonderful things you heard, I suggest you take a look at your own lives and see how you stand with regard to social etiquette, love, compassion and sensitivity towards others; and how your " spiritual path " is helping you, if at all, with any of that. By your standards I am wicked, by my own - I think that I'm better off typing this for those who may be interested to read, and that includes all of you who tune in everyday to chuckle and agree in solitude.

 

F*** the " obedient " attitude and get real about your lives. You need to have a voice, even if that means you change your gender and hide behind a pseudo name. This is just a blog, but then again, it gives you the freedom and space to talk about the stuff that is pushed under the carpet in our RS social groups.

Didn't Gurinder tell people not to use hair color ? Who's obeyed that one ? All that being said, the good news is that your like is a shrinking lot and RSSB does not appeal to most people ( in India ) anymore. Stop being apologists, when you're really not. Why do you want me to be your voice when you have your own ? Think about it. With love to all who read this... :)

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Robert & Roger, Here is a summary of the succession. At the time of the announcement, Gurinder was in Spain. He received a phone call after Charan's passing that he had been chosen by his Master ( Charan ) to become the next Param Sant Sat Guru of RSSB. This came as a big surprise to most people ( friends & family ) who were close to Charan.

Some were expecting Dr. Parminder Singh, the son-in-law of Charan Singh to become the next Guru. ( Parminder was the husband of Nimmie Singh & father of the two Singh brothers - Malvinder & Shivinder who now are partners with Gurinder. ) I remember having a conversation with GS a few years ago and he himself told me about the " phone call " and what a surprise it was to him, though at that time ( as I believed he was a GIHF ) I thought he was just being humble.

Gurinder was just another member of the extended family and was not considered to be a Perfect Living Master ( PLM ) before he became the Guru ! He was not a " higher-up " in RSSB and was actually quite disconnected from the Dera politics and was leading a quiet life in Spain with his family. Gurinder's tenure started out on low-key beginnings. It was a long while before he gave his first Satsang and wore dark glasses for almost a year and a half. Initiation started much later. The brimming confidence that you see today is the result of a well orchestrated succession.

What I saw ( back then ) was a reluctant successor who was cautious about every move he made. What would you do if you suddenly became the head of a large spiritual sect and had everyone looking up to you for " grace & mercy " on one hand, and for all management related decisions on the other ? How would it feel to have Sevadars ( double your age ) standing in submission with folded hands, saying... " Baba Ji, hukum karo ! " ( translated as ) " What do you desire Master ? " I'm sure it was rather difficult for him in the initial years and maybe there were times he may have just wanted to run away from it all, and that's why IMO, he pursues his business interests on the side, as a break from the " Guru " thing.

 

Tara said:

S.Clarity, thank you for posting here. You've raised some very important questions, here is my reply - 01. So much for transparency ! That incident happened in Mumbai in 2009, at the RSSB's management's office. My friend was very keen that his fiancé visits Beas as he came from an RS family. The girl had read about the mission and attended the Mumbai Satsang. She concluded that there were large-scale donations coming in, that were collectively given by the poor. She decided to find out how the RSSB-trust allocated the funds collected.

They made an appointment with one of the senior RS reps and her first question was a query into the approximate figure that was donated over that weekend. They were immediately escorted out of the office by four RS reps and were told that they shouldn't attend Satsang if they have no faith in the Master. I also know of three similar incidents in the Dera.

Yes, simply asking about financial dealings of any kind are considered inappropriate. Any well-informed Satsangi will tell you that it is forbidden to question the RSSB management regarding any monetary issue.

02. No, the current Master has never offered to make a public disclosure. His Religare earnings, his personal expenses ( and who bears them ), the net worth of the RSSB-trust ( all donations & assets ) and the transactions of the trust - all remain a big mystery. Individual queries are silently quashed. Unfortunately, no Sangat in any region has jointly made an inquiry into the RSSB-trust funds. Gurinder tells people that his son is working " for " the Religare London office, as if his son is an employee !

Unless one knows, Gurinder pretends that he and his family have nothing to do with Religare and that he's just a servant of the Sangat. Sunil Godhwani is an RS initiate and the CMD of the Religare Group. He is also the Guru's personal treasurer, trusted confidant and right-hand man.

03. Yes, this is correct. The Beas farmland issue is a case in point where RSSB has illegally encroached upon land that is owned by farmers and has diverted the river course to drive them out of their dwellings. RSSB has a number of land related lawsuits pending and Gurinder uses his political contacts to work things in his favor.

Announcements were made at the Delhi Satsang three years ago, urging fellow Satsangi's not buy land around the Bhati Mines area which encloses the largest RSSB center in Delhi. It was only later that people realized that RSSB wanted to buy that land, and the reason they discouraged followers to buy it was because it would have been rather difficult for RSSB to " throw out / buy out " a Satsangi as opposed to a non-believer.

On another occasion RSSB made sure that a subway line was diverted in Delhi and had thousands of followers sign a mass petition and stage a rally in protest. Then there is that 108 million USD land-deal in Ahmedabad and there is no evidence, as yet, about where those funds are. The fact remains that RSSB's real-estate assets are the largest amongst spiritual missions, and RSSB does minimal charity - just enough to maintain the trust's status as a non-profit spiritual organization.

04. Yes, the source ( www.watchoutinvestors.com ) has given accurate information and this website is owned by the Investor Education and Protection Fund which is a part of the Ministry of Corporate Affairs, Government of India. I do not know of any other SEBI disclosed violations. It seems like most of the questionable activities are done between the RSSB-trust and Religare before the " official documents " hit the floor.

The RSSB-trust is an autonomous body and is closed to external auditing. Religare's auditors are PWC's Indian affiliate who are famous for their involvement in the Satyam scandal in recent years. http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=newsarchive&sid=ar6hB_Hr347E

05. Interesting question. If you look at Page-94 of the Religare Prospectus you will find a board member and initiate named Mr. Deepak Ramchand Sabnani who has the foreign directorship of the ( RSSB ) Science of the Soul Study Centre International Limited which is an RSSB registered charity. What is a non-profit RSSB subsidiary doing on the corporate prospectus of Religare ? This is another link that proves that Religare board members who are initiates have also been given important roles within RSSB. I have learnt that business is preferentially given to the Guru's " inner circle " members who are also his close friends. http://www.sebi.gov.in/dp/reldraft.pdf http://www.scienceofthesoul.org

06. There is no concrete proof of the RSSB-trust funding Religare at the time of its inception. However, some facts to consider are - A. The only people on the Indian billionaires list who do not have a cataloged history of family business are Gurpreet and Gurkirat, the Guru's two sons.

( The Singh brothers cannot be considered " family " in this regard as they " got into business " with Gurinder only in 2006, prior to which Gurinder had nothing to do with Ranbaxy and had no business of his own. ) B. There is no road-map to indicate how the Guru and his sons became ( now the largest ) shareholders of a two billion dollar company... ( ?? ) C. Why were shares transferred at a pre-issue price to Gurpreet and Gurkirat only ? Why is Gurpreet nowhere to be seen on the Religare India website ? Why is he tucked away in London ? Why has he never been interviewed ?

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Brian, you've touched upon something interesting in this post. I was talking to a fringe-Satsangi the other day, and we both agreed that your devotion to RS Sant Mat was exemplary and you were probably what RSSB would call a ' perfect devotee ' back in the day.

Which brought me to a mini-conclusion : we have examples of some ' perfect ' devotees ( and I use this word kind of loosely as according to the RS doctrine we're imperfect ) so people like you and my father were / are what I can safely call ' prototypes ' of perfect RS devotees. I've seen my father meditate at 4am and your wife has seen you do the same and volunteer for a ' night-seva ' duty outside the Guru's residence.

Our near and dear ones know some facts about us. Well, what do we know about the Guru ? Very little, IMO. Okay, Gurinder may not be willing to perform miracles or give us descriptive details of supreme regions, but surely, on the ' human ' side of things, as he is God In HUMAN Form, it may be good to let devotees in on some ' demonstrable ' human activities. Like, for starters, is he giving 1/10th of his earnings from Religare into charity as prescribed by the teachings ? It seems like the ' this-is-how-you-do-it ' demo is missing on all levels.

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This comment is a reply to the sender of the email that Brian has posted above - July 20, 2010 at 8:00pm. Sender, please excuse me if at any point you find my tone offensive. SENDER says - In your post ' RSSB's ties to Religare mix money and spirituality... ' what proof do you have that the RSSB Guru ( Baba Ji ) literally runs the company ? That he makes all the important decisions and spends a considerable amount of time driving the business ? And if he is making millions for his family and kids, is that such a big crime ? In America we do that, we call it capitalism.

 

Reply - I hope you know that the Guru and his family are the largest shareholders of the company : Religare. The business model was conceived by Gurinder, and the Singh brothers are just a front-face of the company. In the second quarter of 2009, some members of the Religare top-brass understood that ' orders ' were coming not from the CEO but from a ' higher source ' and that the CEO was nothing but a pawn in the hands of a ' Guru ' who was taking all the decisions - but was actually incognito.

 

They soon discovered that a shareholder by the name of ' Gurpreet Dhillon ' who was tucked away in the London office was actually the son of the leader of a large spiritual sect. A little more inquiry lead to further details that uncovered Gurinder Singh Dhillon of RSSB as the founder and ' hidden ' head-honcho of Religare. ( How the leader of a spiritual sect managed to set up and drive a billion dollar company is another issue, one that I'm not going to talk about at the moment. )

 

Now, lets talk about Charlie's Angels. The CEO of Religare Enterprises Ltd. is an initiate named Mr. Sunil Godhwani - the personal treasurer and right-hand man of the Guru. He is also the Guru's long-time friend. Closed-door meetings are often held at Mr. Sunil Godhwani's farmhouse in New Delhi and the Guru is constantly in touch with him on the phone when they're apart. ( Even the chauffeurs know about this ! )

 

Mr. Godhwani's residence is the Guru's home for all ' unofficial ' visits into the capital. How do I know this ? A close family has a relative who works for Religare, and I'm good friends with people who are well connected with the ' inner circle ' members. This information has also been confirmed by a dozen well known people from the Indian financial sector.

 

You're talking about capitalism ? This is not capitalism, this is a big guerilla coup ! Usually, there's always something shady when someone is hiding something, and your ' Baba Ji ' clearly has a lot to hide. Otherwise, why hasn't he come out in the open ? Why is this something that needs to be rationalized ?

 

SENDER says - You've heard of Rev. Joel Osteen, I'm sure, http://www.joelosteen.com or maybe seen his weekly TV programs. He is a Christian minister, and spiritual leader from Houston, Texas. I'm sure he's very savvy when it comes to business and making money, and there's no doubt in my mind that he's a multimillionaire. I'm sure his kids are millionaires too, thanks to Joel. His books have been on the NY Times best selling author list - many times. He's rolling in money !

 

Reply - I doubt if Joel's bestsellers would be describing him as a GIHF and he probably not handing out ' rennet free cheese ' lists to his faithful.

 

SENDER says - My question to you is this - Does it spiritually matter that Joel Osteen is making big money for his family and kids and still running a big Church like Lakewood ? I'm sure he has lots of insider trading tips from his Texan buddies and Christian associates too. That's called networking, and we all do it.

 

Reply - Does it spiritually matter... ? Sorry, but I think your idea of morality can do with some kindergarden basics, seems like you missed ' ethics ' class in school.

 

SENDER says - Yet, when an eastern Master like Baba Ji does the same thing, we are quick to blast him and criticize him. We think that the eastern Guru should be in sandals, simple, poor, and his family should be poor too. Why the double standards ?

 

Reply - I do not want my spiritual Master to be poor, but I think I'd expect him to practice what he preaches. Gurinder Singh's business operations are a clear departure from the teachings of RS Sant Mat. I think your ' Baba Ji ' is the one who has double standards - he talks about detachment, but silently runs a billion dollar company.

 

SENDER says - Anyhow, I'm sure Baba Ji and his family are giving lots of money to help run the Dera, and all the centers he has around the world. Its not cheap to run these places. I know that I stayed at the Dera for a month once and didn't have to pay a dime for the room and board.

 

Reply - That is totally incorrect. Dera is a self-sustaining economy which is run by the money that comes from donations by the Sangat and all operations are carried out by volunteers. RSSB centers ( in India and around the world ) are built and maintained by volunteers, so it is rather cheap to ' run ' these places. It is all monetary or physical ' Seva ' by the Sangat in every way, but it is the RSSB trust that owns these properties. RSSB has cut back on all charitable activities, so it is not likely that the Guru's family are giving anything at all !

 

You didn't pay a dime for the boarding & lodging at the Dera... Well, that was Charan Singh's idea, thank him for that. I wonder what Gurinder would have done ! SENDER says - Anyhow, waiting to hear from you. Thanks. Reply - Would you like to have a dialogue via private email ? Any more questions ? It may be a good idea to step out of your cowardice and post your thoughts on the blog, trust me, you'll not have killed a holy cow.

------------------

 

Nietzsche, IMO, the RS philosophy is designed to confuse. It is contradictory and anti-life. It requires a total shutdown of reason, logic and intuition. Sant Mat aside, there has been a huge shift in the values and ideology that defined the RS sect in the days of Charan. I was brought up with the RS belief system, so it was twice as difficult for me to let go of it !

 

It is a long story Nietzsche... Lets just say that there came a point where I found myself totally confused. I stopped trusting myself and my instincts. I was being pulled in two opposite directions - one that was telling me to listen to my inner voice that said that RS was a big farce, and the other which was constantly nudging me back to my conditioned roots and my little ' RS world ' that came with it.

 

As a series of events unfolded at the end of last year, I decided to get out of the box. It was a liberating experience, I was relieved when I came face to face with my true feelings. I guess I was tired of the hypocrisies and lack of compassion that I often witnessed.

 

I've had many dreams of Sawan and Charan, even Gurinder. Those were stemming from the love and admiration that I had for them. Now I have dreams of fluorescent oceans and talking fish - I'm planning on building an eco-friendly holiday home in Goa. I think we often underestimate the power of imagination. My life is as miracle-full or as miracle-empty as it was when I was on the RS path. Actually, everything is just great ! However, the absence of fear and guilt has given me a renewed sense of freedom.

------------------

 

Nietzsche, The whole idea of being ' humble ' in RSSB is basically to restrict credit or praise where it is due. On the other hand, Gurinder devours the attention and adoration that is bestowed on him by the Sangat. Its something like a beehive - where Gurinder is the queen-bee and the rest are worker-bees. ( Actually, there are all sorts of bees in the higher ranks as well... )

 

I've had a number of conversations with Gurinder and he's clearly enjoying his power and position. He seems to have a condescending attitude towards the less privileged and rarely meets followers from the poorer sections of the Sangat. I've seen his personal security rudely push an elderly man just because he was standing close to a waiting Mercedes that was parked for him.

 

If it wasn't for the legacy that Charan left, Gurinder wouldn't have survived a day of his Gurudom. Charan could have left the ' gaddi ' to a goose and the RS following would believe that that the goose was now the new GIG ( goose ) F.

 

Unfortunately, the education level of the majority of the Sangat is so low that they buy into the RS BS. For the rural villagers, a promise of salvation is like rain on a hot day - they don't want to come back to their life of misery and would do anything to improve their present condition : donate their pennies, do physical Seva, queue up for long hours to catch a glimpse of the Guru etc.

 

That's exactly where cult control tactics come in and RSSB takes full advantage of the naivety and innocence of these people. Its important to note that RSSB never stresses on the importance of education. They want the Sangat to remain backward, uneducated and involved in Seva - their survival and growth depends on it. 

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satsangi, I'm sorry to learn that my comments have upset you, my apologies. However, maybe there are some opinions that you identify with and maybe they are in conflict with your belief system. FYI dude, I live in India too. ( My family members have been RS's through generations, though we are Sikhs by descent. )

 

The farmland and diversion of the river-bank issue has been going on for over a decade, which I closely followed even before I was initiated. So, its not like I'm making assumptions. Don't talk about Gurinder not wanting to show-off or being secretive about his charity.

 

RSSB has listed every small thing that they have done in the past ( there are about six or seven mid-size projects that you can read about on their website ) and sadly there is not much more that they have done for humanity or the poorer amongst their Sangat. I do not see how million-dollar investments in properties abroad will help the Sangat, when those funds can be used for basic healthcare and education for the rural Sangat's families and children.

 

What do you think ? And, what's the obsession with fancy cars ? I thought that a ' Perfect Master ' would be above the material world. About the Shabads... I am referring to the Shabads that have been banned from internal usage within the RSSB Satsangs, so thanks for educating me about their external misuse ! ( I had a good laugh at you naivety... ) Here is the list, please note that some of them were Charan's favorites - Aad Niranjan Prabh Nirankara - Guru Arjun Dev Ji Namey He Tey Sabhu Kichhu Hoa - Guru Amar Das Ji Dil Ka Hujra Saaf Kar- Tulsi Sahib Har Ki Pooja Dulambh Hai Santo - Guru Amar Das Ji Jag Main Ghor Andhera Bhari - Soami Ji Dhun Sun Kar Man Samjhayee - Soami Ji Do go and check with RS representatives in Mumbai and Delhi to confirm the same.

 

Of course you'll find a way to rationalize and justify this, but I still suggest you to go ahead and find out things for yourself. I do not subscribe to rumors, everything that I have written on this blog is either my own experience and opinion, or has come from a dependable source - like people who are high rankers in the RS community. Finally, like tAo said, you don't know anything about me, so I don't think you're in a position to judge. And, I don't think my de-conversion was about a lack of thrust, it was more about realizing that the current Guru is totally out of line with what Beas once stood for.

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Bernie, I don't agree with you and here's why - RRSB is a hierarchical organization - a poor follower from the village may never be able to meet the Guru, but a rich follower most probably will. All decisions of the Guru are final and unquestionable at every level.

 

An elitist ' inner-circle ' comprising of the Guru's business aides are high-ranked members of the sect. RSSB exercises control over its followers by inducing guilt and fear through their Satsangs and literature. This in turn helps drive the extreme vows that RSSB stands for.

The RSSB asset-corpus is one of the largest in the world amongst spiritual sects, and they continue to acquire more property. A large chunk of land that was bought by donations ( mostly from the poor ) has been sold at a huge profit - there is no clarity about where the funds have been redirected. There is little or no initiative towards humanitarian or charitable activities.

RSSB exploits people through Seva or volunteer work, which is usually directed towards the expansion of the mission in one way or the other.

Though the RS meditation is supposed to be the central tenet of discipleship, discussion about progress in meditation is forbidden. RS-Sant Mat is in many ways dogmatic and ritualistic, but the scorn upon the same when they talk about other religions. All of the above is invisible when you're a believer of the RS path. I'd rather be a practicing Christian, Sikh, Hindu, Buddhist or whatever... Anything is better than RS-Sant Mat.

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dman, Roger... I was often corrected by RSSB representatives for questioning fellow and older initiates about their spiritual progress. The reason I began to doubt the whole system stemmed from my opinion that RS-mantra meditation was unproductive for almost everyone practicing it. There was neither any 'spiritual' progress for them, nor were they outwardly relaxed and at peace with the world around them.

Satsangis usually attribute the smallest of their problems to the 'karma' rhetoric and have an overbearing sense of dependence on the guru. To add to that, many appear depressed, dejected or frustrated because at some level they feel that their efforts are futile. A few weeks ago, I bumped into a young ( Indian ) satsangi couple at a bar. They hung around till 2am sipping diet-coke and enviously gazing at groups of people around who were dancing and enjoying themselves. On their way out they said a cold 'hello' to my friends, then looked at our table and gave me a horrid 'you're-going-straight-to-hell' kinda look... :)

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Catherine !! I'm Tara, she is Nayantara. ( Before people think she's the one who's blogging here... LOL !! ) In your comment above, I assume you are referring to Religare. Religare is a for-profit company and the RS ' inner circle ' members make up the top-brass. They are handsomely paid, far more than what they would otherwise get ( for their level of competence ) in other financial services companies.

 

The rest of the employees are ' normal ' people who are hired and paid for their respective roles, but cannot consume non-vegetarian fare in the office premises as one of the rules of the company. Religare is known for its bad corporate governance and its RSSB-like hierarchy, though in this case the Guru is pretty much incognito !

I learnt that the Religare cafeteria is very unhygienic and the restrooms seldom have soap. People are fired unceremoniously, mostly without a reason. Quite mismanaged for God's own company... ( ?? ) This is how things work - Gurinder needs loyal people to stick with Religare as he has big plans for his company. Who would be better than RS initiates ? They look upon him as God so every decision ( right or wrong ) would be regarded as the ' Will of God ' while he gets away without challenge or criticism. The ' higher-ups ' believe that they have been taken care of in every sense, worldly and post-worldly ( Swarath & Parmarath ) so, if you see it from their perspective, they think they couldn't have had it better !

These people and their families are raking it in - physical proximity to the GIHF plus material benefits, all by his grace ! Even though they seem to be staunch followers of the path, they collectively lack the most basic of social skills and some of them have crossed over to being comically hostile. IMO, all the people close to Gurinder have doubts about him being the real deal, but they are playing along with with the guru-game as somewhere down the line they are benefiting - through plump placements within Religare and Fortis, through business alliances that come with the expansion of these companies, through getting better networked for their own personal gains...

 

Then there are the other followers who see him perched on a pristine dais as the Shabd Incarnate - Westerners who seek out the RS philosophy through the meditation technique, Indians ( like myself ) who are born into RS following families who have unconditional faith, new-age ( fanatic ) converts, teary-eyed villagers who abound with tales of miracles and mercy, Charan's old flock who are in silent confusion... There is a big difference between the people who are close to Gurinder and the ones who perceive him as God. Faith is best kept from a distance... :) I guess when you're obsessed with something, more often than not, anything about it is fairly easy to rationalize.

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<<< Robert, thanks for your story. Unfortunately, I cannot drop names here as the Indian RS social network will ostracize some of my friends if I do... >>> Well, there is a man who's a part of the RS ' inner circle ' and has has become very busy with the affairs of Religare. I heard that Gurinder told him to meditate when he finds the time... ( ?? ) Having known this man for more than a decade, I can safely conclude that he's gone from being a jerk to a being a mighty jerk.

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Robert, you have me confused ! You write - " The Guru is meant to equal God... " So you do subscribe to the GIHF thing, right ? Can you imagine Fakir Chand pulling off a Religare during his time ? I cannot ! And no, a big no, the Master is not a mirror. He is a mirage that is conjured up by the hallucination of one's own imagination. Perceive him as the ' Shabd Incarnate ' and you'll see him that way, perceive him as an ordinary human being and you'll begin to see him like one of us - it is all in the mind. This ' mirror ' thing is mere story telling by RSSB via their cleverly crafted writings to make you feel like shit.

You write - " It can be difficult to have faith in him if we were somehow closely connected to him physically... " Obviously ! Thats how you'll discover the ' real ' Gurinder - an impostor. He is a calculative, shrewd, stony-hearted, power hungry schmuck. Spend some time with him and the ' inner circle ' and you'll reach for the next muffin you'll find. Do you think that any of his core group members are interested in spirituality ? That would be a joke ! These clowns are busy stuffing their pockets with cash as they load up more for Gurinder on the Religare money-train.

------------------

Robert - For almost two years before my departure from RSSB, I enjoyed a neutral, liberalistic view of RS Sant Mat. On the other hand, having met Gurinder several times, I rationalized his apparent imperfections almost subconsciously. My devotion was more of a crutch, a habitual idolization.

Then as time went by, I realised that my perception of RS Sant Mat was stuck in my own childhood, during the last years of Charan Singh. As an adult, the more I got to know Gurinder and the ' inner circle ' the more uncomfortable I felt. Things that I saw and heard felt against the basic grain of what I had learnt about Sant Mat.

It was not easy to address this internally, so for a real long time I ' hung on ' taking refuge in justifying the hypocrisies. The RS philosophy is not straightforward and many aspects are open to personal interpretation. Your idea of the ' real higher self ' maybe radically different from what a pure cultist believes.

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SHOCKING !!! Thanks for putting up this information Brian. Strange, I got a call from my cousin this morning and he was telling me the same... :) The more I learn about Gurinder, the less I feel I know ! It saddens me to see what RSSB has become. I hope these articles will be the last straw in the hat for some of my relatives who were left undecided after the Religare exposé. Money from the Ahmedabad land deal is going to go straight into Religare, no doubt about that ! And, how I wish the government comes cracking down on RSSB for the river encroachment issue. Gurinder is very well networked politically, but I hope that the poor farmers get justice this time.

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Deepak - Interesting point, RS does not appeal to the educated lot and to the younger generation in India. The innocent and gullible villagers make up 95 percent of the devotee-bank. Hukai - Self help is great, bettering the world - even greater ! And, improving one's external conditions - that's exactly what the RS guru is doing. So what do you think is better : A. A whole lot of practical mumbo jumbo that addresses your present life. B. A whole lot of authoritarian mumbo jumbo that clearly contradicts the karma rhetoric within its writings.

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Hi Deepak, the RSSB representatives gave me that book after the initiation ceremony. Though my translation of the title was ' Earning Your Living Through Rightful & Honest Means ' it has a farmer tilling his field with a cattle-plough on the cover. So, on one hand, RSSB distributes this book after initiation. But, on the other, the Guru's 20 year old son is gifted with a ten-percent equity of a one billion dollar company he has never worked a single day for !

This is an absolute contradiction. What applies to the Sangat must first apply to the Guru and his family. What about the karmic implications of these deals, I wonder... There were always questionable aspects about the RS theology to begin with, even in the days of Charan Singh and the other Great Masters. However, Gurinder has taken his ' gurudom ' to an entirely new level ! If you are a journalist based in India, it would be great if you know someone who might be interested to do a story. Many are ready to give their inputs.

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tk : Until a few weeks ago, no one was aware that the RS guru and his family are the co-owners of a two billion dollar financial services company. This has caught every single follower by surprise. RSSB and the guru have obviously kept this cleverly under wraps ! I feel uncomfortable when a mystic figure talks about detachment on one hand, and practices quite the opposite, on the other. What one can get from SEBI ( and partly over the Internet ) are the quarterly and annual results of Religare. But, cross-holding patterns and detailed investor information may be hard to procure as those are confidentially secure with the Religare top-brass, which in this case are the RSSB higher-ups.

------------------

Hi Undecided, Religare was founded in 2006. http://www.linkedin.com/companies/religare The shares were issued to the Guru's family at INR 10 per share before the company went for an IPO on October 29, 2007. As of this morning, Religare's market cap is INR 5061.93 Crores, so you can do the math if the family owns twenty percent of it !

 

Some people also say that they own much more than 20 percent. I heard a few days ago that Malvinder Singh and Shivinder Singh had only a 30 percent stake in Religare now - that too should be verifiable if you have the patience to do an extensive online search. The 30 percent shareholding of Malvinder and Shivinder was also mentioned in a recent article in the print media in India, if I recollect correctly.

 

The eye camps have been closed for over four or five years now. Just ask any representative of RSSB in your city, they will confirm it. I don't know the reason for this, and nor do some of the older Satsangis I have spoken to. Most of them sum it up to the ' mauj ' of the guru or give a similar ( vague ) answer.

 

Yes, I agree with you, all this information put together becomes a real problem for those who are staunch RS believers, specially for the older generation who are Charan's initiates - it becomes difficult to rationalize. It is impossible to look at RS spirituality in isolation, when the guru is involved with transactions amounting to millions of dollars.

 

All of this feels completely wrong then ! My family and their RS friends do not know what to make of this. ( I guess it is imperative at this point to have faith in one's own wings and in one's own judgement. ) Some of them have gone back to their traditional faith - Sikhism.

 

A snippet from a newspaper article that RSSB has published on its website - " Sant Mat does not require asceticism but asks for complete detachment from every activity that retards the progress of the soul. To eat the simplest and purest nourishment definitely helps in controlling the five passions - lust, anger, greed, attachment and egotism. High ethical and moral life is necessary for spiritual progress and God realization. This path also enjoins the followers to earn their livelihood by honest means. The Master himself rigidly follows this principle and accepts nothing from his disciples. " http://www.rssb.org/articles.php Read No. 6 - The Radha Soami Way of God Realization.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Comments

[777]

I see
many
commentators have read one of the >>10.000 books
magazines, columns about Near Death Experiences

One hasn't to do a single special exercise during his lifetime
It happens and happens all the time, it happens to everybody

Next there are stories called astral travelling,
Those happen less but the conscious goes not further
than the earth plane and its etheric surroundings

The degree of "meetings" with other entities
depends on the solidness of once aura.

If there are many holes in that protection shield,
then call for Scotty.

Next there are the sincere Yogis and others, doing mainly Pranayama.
Respiration exercises
Seldom in the first life but after many ascetic purifications
they indeed can adventure in the first of 7 heavens (Plane of consciousness)

Those really 'far' will possess one or more of the (wiki) side(h)is
The more they use these powers, the more they lose them
that is ( like here in the physic )
If 100% no ego is involved everything is OK but if it is,
the powers will be lost slowly at best or fast
and/or turn themselves against the ego shower.

So, it s easy to define what we meet
If they eat meat (yes it happens) it's even worse

For arriving in this 1/7 world one must pass through one or mostly
a combination of chakra_tunnels in the same way as arriving here by the chakras of the mother.

If the applyer really misuses the siddhis he will be stucked in the tunnel(s)
and their cavities like the Thai boys
no help in sight
In smaller parallels its the same as with all talents here on earth
ending often in cocaine for enhancing . . .
Even a novelist will use his phantasy

There are some karma_executing souls with special powers
(Hitler > Voice power ) , Bonaparte, Mao, Caesar, but that is rare.
For their reparation read some pages in OAHSPE
the link I gave a few days ago

All this has absolutely nothing to do with God The Almighty's Name
that cannot be written, neither spoken but can be heard above our eyes
via the 2 highest Chakras and NO OTHER CHAKRA AT ALL

So, . . when science will arrive explaining NDE and what the Brahma seeking Yogis do
God's name will never be exploited other than by hearing , admiring Its sweetness and
diving in it
Being That

Yes Meditation is cutting off all those thousends of ego spikes in our thinking untill we give up
Next One has really no time for Ego
Pray for it

777

Pls understand that the whole process is like a dynamic wave form
which its ups and downs
RSSB Meditation polishes the rough waves

[777]

JIM said and I SO agree :
"""" I am like a Detective, who KNOWS Lane is guilty of Spiritual Murder to the Multitudes he sentenced to death, by his Articles, Books, Pseudo Science , """

Jim, He will be reborn soon
and Yes, he can still NOW dimish somewhat the horrible effects of what he has sown
by an open publication

Remember Judas, . . Sawan said : "He is in Heaven"
I guess he used the 30 pieces to withdraw accusations before hanging

Sawan didn't tell HOW Judas arrived where he is
777

[777]

-

Same for me

Next time I enter the brothel
I must much more empesize
on the words and the sound

But I loved THEM all the time, Jim

777

-
and That was felt
perhaps some preachers do that too
without a word to say
without judgement and hypocrisy
and Jésus in their Heart Chakra
I pray
May this happen worldwide Oh My God

-

[Spencer Tepper]

Hi Manjit

In not sure if this came through yesterday.. It seemed to be blocked. But if you saw it disregard. Otherwise, I did respond to your request for factual points below.

You wrote

"So instead of the irrelevant ad hominems, perhaps address the actual details of what she writes - which are clearly her opinions about FACTS, share them or not, but do you dispute any of the actual facts she shares? Your pedantic & selective criticisms of almost throw-away comments shows just how little you have in terms of an effective rebuttal, imo."

Apparently you missed some of the details of what I wrote. Here are four :

1.The fact that Tara accused Baba Ji of lying without listing those.

2.The fact that Tara accused Baba Ji of not being in the decision making role to keep Dera, and all the new centers, free. And then later claiming he makes all the key decisions. You can't have it both ways.

3.Ignoring the work of Ranbaxy in helping to save over a million lives as the major supplier to the Clinton Initiative at or below cost, stretching their company's capacity, drawing the ire of investors to the Singh brothers and costing them their careers.

4. Wrongly depicting belief in RS as the result of an uneducated Sangat, ignoring all the surgeons, physicians, scientists and other professionals throughout the world who are devotees from the highest levels of educated discernment. And it is these who make up the main share of donations, to help their brothers and sisters.

Ignoring most of that and depicting the rest as unbridled greed.
False. Tara's projections.

[One Initiated]

I truly hope that Lane comes forward for posting online,
and answer 100s of questions he is due to respond to,
It can help many individuals - as it has corrupted many.

I hope he comes forward before the sun sets on him.

Manjit, it appears you are on the path
of becoming the next David Lane.
You are possibly corrupting many seekers.

If you said you can achieve that state
in a few weeks, what are you waiting for ?

You said you are no longer interested in it,
but you are interested in talking and debating the topics around it ?
What does that actually mean ?

Could you please spend those few weeks
and achieve that state again ?

I heartily wish and pray for you to come out of the grip of your mind.
You said: "who cares" ... I do. I do care for you brother.
It's extremely hurting for me to observe you becoming the next D. Lane.

[Jim Sutherland]

O.I. Writes to Manjit,.....”I heartily wish and pray for you to come out of the grip of your mind.
You said: "who cares" ... I do. I do care for you brother.
It's extremely hurting for me to observe you becoming the next D. Lane.”

Me: Manjit is still young enough to repent of his errors of doing harm to him self, but in spite of him being at Odds with Sant Mat, RSSB and Gurinder, it should be obvious to any one following his posts over the years, that Manjit is not an Atheist, and in fact, comes accross as being a VERY Spiritual seeker of Truth.

Unlike Lane, Manjit has never tried to persuade others that there is no soul, and all consciousness is Brain Neurons firing, and has nothing to do all with Spirituality.
.
From my reading thousands of posts by BOTH Manjit and Lane over the last 20 years, I have witnessed Manjit's growth, in Spirituality, not decline, in spite of his inflated Ego of thinking he has already forgotten more about what ever those he decides to debate will ever know in this life time. :-). But, unlike Lane, Manjit has never written scores of Books to persuade Seekers of how intellegent he is.

I can’t see that Manjit has ever advised ANY seeker, interested in persuing Spirituality to quit seeking, because its all in the brain, only, unlike Lane, the “ Neural Surfer” who being a College Professor, with a Ph.D. , not only destroys youg Seekers minds, in his College Classes, but has destroyed many others, who have stumbled in to his Radha Swami Studies Yahoo Group , and not only read Lane’s own Guru Bashing, of most other RS Branchers, but his own RSSB. He publically stated that he snuck up to the Whizard’s Cave, and pulled open the curtain, to expose Toto. ( my paraphrase, but close)

The difference between Manjit and Lane is,

Manjit quit meditating because he believes he has found shorter paths to Spirituality, but has never thrown the Baby out with the bath water, nor does he try to convince other Seekers that there is nothing beyond the brain, so don’t waste time looking for some thing that isn't there, ....where,

Lane, on the ofher hand, is like a Cancer Patient, using the Cure for him self, ( Meditation ), while at the same time discouraging any other Seeker coming in contact with his writtings that every body can access the brain farts by reading his books and if they do see any thing inside, its the Chandian effect.

David Lane has discouraged so many and pushed so many away from Spirituality and The Path of the Masters, that if he even starts now, and shows up to publically apologise to all he has caused to go astray from the path, he has a lot of work to do in order to avoid Reincarnation again, hopefully, in a position to burn the negative Karma he has created for himself this life.

Lane could be compared to a Military General, who has led his soldiers in to Battle, knowing that they will be killed in battle, while he remains in his Ivory Tower safe and in comfort while watching them perish, as he keeps sending more to their executions.

That does not describle Manjit, at all. In fact, I have witnessed Manjit stand up and try to reason with some of his most vicious attackers, with out running away to take refuge in a cave and hide from his oppossers as Lane is doing.

I think Lane’s biggest fear of returning, is what his Worshippers will think of him who have been his Cohorts of Anti guru and Anti Spiritual rhetoric if he comes out of his Bunker and confesses he has now changed.

Jim Sutherland

[Spencer Tepper]

Manjit's only flaw is that he is hard on those he disagrees with.

I find him a very spiritual person.

Each of us are allowed our opinions.

Even if they are critical of others.

As for David Lane, he is obliged to no one.

He can change his mind. We all do.

Or not.

But to feed into this notion that he is responsible for your choices and beliefs is, it seems to me, more like you are creating the cult, not him. He's just a guy with opinions.

Just like the gut in the mirror.

[Jim Sutherland]

Spencer, you don’t know Lane as I do, nor his decades of Anti Guru and Cult bashing. You need to do more research on him, not just his recent Surfer Boy stories.

I know many Seekers that I brought right to the door of seeking RSSB Initiation , who then stumbled in to Lane’s RSS Forum, read his Anti-Guru Articles, such as his Book, “ The Guru Has No Turban” and turned around and went in another another. Lane’s Professor status as a young 17 year old Catholic Charan Lover Boy, has had a giant impact on his Judas status to innocent Seekers.

Also, it isn’t so much only what Lane, himself wrote, said, and published, but what he allowed others to post on his Forum, with out moderation or deletion, such as the Pictoral Symbols of the Five Holy Names he left remaining in the Files section for years. If you ever encounter them, take a look at “ So Hung” photo, which Lane got a big laugh out of, and left it in his File Section. I don’t know if its still there, as I am blocked.

You don’t have the least clue regarding the vicious attacks on me and others that Lane allowed to go on for years on his site, and not only allowed them, but applauded them! I once abandoned the site for 5 years, and was baited to return when the long time Pseudo Poster using his Avatar, Rat baited me back, spreading the story I had died of cancer.

When I surfaced, and reported I was alive and doing well, one of my enemies posted, “ Oh, F—-, too bad. “. Lane let it remain, and never deleted the comment. Then, they all had another go at me, before I left the building.

So, Brother, don’t try to lecture me about what I should should do, with out knowing why I remain on Lane’s Case like a Detective that knows Lane is guilty of thousands of past Spiritual deaths, but has escaped ever being brougnt to Judtice by a Trial and by a Jury of his Peers.

Manjit just happened to be present al most the entire two decades to witness all that happened there, so you are really naive to be preaching to any of us on past events you know nothing about.

Manjit has also attacked me, plenty of times, going right for my Juggler Vein, but has proven to be a worthy Opponate, never running to hide in a Bunket when there was too much flack thrown at him. He has gone after Lane, as well, many times, and Check Mated him in public! Even Lane finds him as a worthy Aponite.

I would welcome Manjit as one of tne Jury Members if Lane is ever brougnt to Trial.

Even the RSSB Resident Doctor laughed when Vince Savarice, the Western Rep. said Lane is now a Changed Man. He would also be a good Jury Member to Supena, along with many of tne Exers who obviously would not be delighted to hear Lane admit he is now a changed man, and has returned to the RSSB Satsang.

Jim Sutherland

[Spencer Tepper]

Hi Jim

If you feel compelled to bring anyone to account for their views, I think under that withering judgment we are all sinners.

I passed a church in Mulwakuee a few years ago with a big blue Neon sign, Sinners Welcome! "

If it can be true for a Christian church, if they can forgive anything, or nearly anything, doesn't that put us" enlightened" free thinkers to shame for demanding our pound of flesh?

I am reminded of Shylock in the Merchant of Venice.

But then thinking of that play I remember how Shakespeare depicted Shabd so beautifully in the final act, and in light of that divinely inspired poetry, this thread becomes irrelevant and unworthy of the nobility of our great capacity for attention just as did the drama of his play evaporate in the higher poetry of divine love he shares at the end.

Come Jim! Let us spread our wings and soar above it all, sharing kindness with all.

LORENZO
How sweet the moonlight sleeps upon this bank!
Here will we sit and let the sounds of music
Creep in our ears: soft stillness and the night
Become the touches of sweet harmony.
Sit, Jessica. Look how the floor of heaven
Is thick inlaid with patines of bright gold:
There's not the smallest orb which thou behold'st
But in his motion like an angel sings,
Still quiring to the young-eyed cherubins;
Such harmony is in immortal souls;
But whilst this muddy vesture of decay
Doth grossly close it in, we cannot hear it.

Enter Musicians

Come, ho! and wake Diana with a hymn!
With sweetest touches pierce your mistress' ear,
And draw her home with music.
Music

JESSICA
I am never merry when I hear sweet music.

LORENZO
The reason is, your spirits are attentive:
For do but note a wild and wanton herd,
Or race of youthful and unhandled colts,
Fetching mad bounds, bellowing and neighing loud,
Which is the hot condition of their blood;
If they but hear perchance a trumpet sound,
Or any air of music touch their ears,
You shall perceive them make a mutual stand,
Their savage eyes turn'd to a modest gaze
By the sweet power of music: therefore the poet
Did feign that Orpheus drew trees, stones and floods;
Since nought so stockish, hard and full of rage,
But music for the time doth change his nature.
The man that hath no music in himself,
Nor is not moved with concord of sweet sounds,
Is fit for treasons, stratagems and spoils;
The motions of his spirit are dull as night
And his affections dark as Erebus:
Let no such man be trusted. Mark the music.
Merchant of Venice, Act 5, scene 1,
Will Shakespeare

Mark the divine music in yourself
And find that softened heart.

[G.S]

Brian,

I don't know how my comment isn't being published but 777's is lol.

[777]

"" If it can be true for a Christian church, if they can forgive anything, or nearly anything, doesn't that put us" enlightened" free thinkers to shame for demanding our pound of flesh? ""

We have power to forgive what is done to us personelly; not mre.

The requests ask for clarity only

Is he still poisoning children
He can limit that !

If not Jesus answer applies about the millstone on the bottom
of the Antartic
hurry David to not only have negatives on your account

But if the enlightment was temporal and
your mind tells you all the time that what you saw/heard was not true

From France : . . . . Ainsi soit-il !
There are more sources
like sweet Sound & Light and above everything LOVE

karma obliges - Not 4 lives anymore I heard

777

[777]

""" I don't know how my comment isn't being published but 777's is lol. """
You can't delete Gurinder Singh s comment Brian, . . come on

7

[Arjuna]

@ chill folks - a lot of you can’t let things or people go. You are their prisoners now looooool.

I might get angry but I let go.

I’m not going to have you on my mind unless you pay me rent x

C’mon England tomorrow

[Spencer Tepper]

Hi 777?
"He is poisoning children"?

777, David, just like you, Manjit and Brian, and Jen, Dungeness, Arjuna and are doing exactly what Master has set forth. Diem to the microsecond.

"If you don't like sausages, don't watch them being made! "

Actually I love Manjit's comment, "Gotta go! Those Astral regions won't travel themselves!"

Let's go. From there you may get a glimpse of his this is all working.

[Spencer Tepper]

"I’m not going to have you on my mind unless you pay me rent x"

Way cool Arjuna

[Arjuna]

@ Spencer - thank you it just popped into my mind and c’mon for England against Croatia in the semi Finals tomorrow!

C’mon Spencer 😀

[Jim Sutherland]

Arjuna writes,...”I’m not going to have you on my mind unless you pay me rent x"

Me: Are you a greedy Land Lord?

Perhaps that is why Gurinder does not visit you?

He prefers free rent, free Seva, and free access to your mind.

😇
Jim

[Jesse]

This was really nice timing on your part to post Tara's comments being that the Singh Bhai Bhai's are in the news again after being accused of outright stealing many millions in cash from the companies they once headed.

https://www.livemint.com/Companies/qtfOwrskdEFz1TTfU7Ci6K/How-the-Singh-brothers-squandered-their-business-legacy.html

Good timing on my part, too. I haven't come to the site as much lately. Partly cause your boomer hippy views on politics are so surreal and absurd to me(though I still think you're a pretty interesting and cool guy), but also cause even reading negative stuff about RS irritates me.

It fascinates me that after all Tara has revealed people still can't accept that Gurinder Singh is simply one of many ultra-corrupt Indian spiritual business dynasty families. It's sort of the system there. Anyone who looks beyond RSSB will find this same thing all over India, sadly.

Those who are remotely familiar with Radha Soami literature would know that money is incessantly referred to as something we need to provide necessities of life, and that any more than is necessary is said to be activity wholly antithetical to spiritual progress.

If Gurinder is supposed to be the RS spiritual leader and the perfect exemplar, then the entire cult is schizo at this point. He didn't amass close to a billion dollars by focusing on "naam." He's not doing his bhajan and simran in board rooms and conference calls. Trust me.

You'd think by now people would have figured out that when he comes to US and gives 2 or 3 30 minute satsangs, it's likely not the real reason he came here. The most likely explanation is that he's coming for business, but uses his "spiritual" talks to avoid taxes and other expenses. Not to mention that it gives him a cover for the sangat who might otherwise question his flight and other spending that likely comes from RS coffers.

Were he so devoted to the "sangat" you'd think he would have more than an hour during a week long visit to spend with all his beloved chelas.

I feel sorry for those who haven't awoken to this most obvious reality yet. But I can say for sure that I'm happy to have left that weird cult behind. There are many better cults in this world.

[Arjuna]

@ Jim - I didn’t mean Master Gurinder and how would you know he doesn’t visit loooool. Or for that fact how would I know. My mind is open for the Lord 24/7😀. It is now after reading this blog. In fact this blog has had the opposite effect on me.

I meant people - I don’t really think about people that much bar in my immediate vicinity 😀

All the very best.

[Jim Sutherland]

@ Arjuna and 777,......You Satsangis are not very good Advertisements for RSSB Initiation.

Arguna has Bars in mind, and visits them occasionally, , and 777 has Porno cams in mind and visits Brothels, he confesses.

But really, there is a lot of wishful thinking in this Church.

I think Arjuna is on a Dry Drunk, and 777 has in ingrown erection, and is raping himself to death.

HaHaHaHa Loooool

😇

Jim

Radha Swami

[Jen]

Life is a mystery and an adventure and 'letting go' opens the doorway to the unknown.

"But the attitude of faith is to let go, and become open to truth, whatever it might turn out to be" Alan Watts

[Spencer Tepper]

Hi Jesse

You wrote
"The most likely explanation is that he's coming for business, but uses his "spiritual" talks to avoid taxes and other expenses. Not to mention that it gives him a cover for the sangat who might otherwise question his flight and other spending that likely comes from RS coffers."

While the article you provided had some facts, all your comments above are not facts but conjecture.

And if one 's judgment is sound it usually must be based upon facts.

It really depends upon what you choose to read, to investigate, and to believe. Or what you choose to ignore. Tara's report is biased to her grudge. She ignores some of the most important facts.

RE Ranbaxy, whose sale in 2008 fueled the astronomic leap of Religare, the investment firm originally founded to help grow the Indian economy and provide Healthcare access to more of India.

Ranbaxy was a successfully run family business bringing low cost medications to India for decades. The patriarch, Bhai Mohan Singh was a financier who bought the company in 1952 when his cousins who had started and owned it were on the brink of bankruptcy. He was the husband of Maharaji 's daughter.

In the early years of this century they became , as they remain today, the third world's largest supplier of low cost critical drugs, for TB, Malaria and Aides. They supply most of the HIV medications and Ampicillin going to Africa, including those for the Clinton HIV initiative and other impoverished nations, at fraction of the prices offered by others. This is the company's tradition and their business model.

The grandfather, in the 1970's, realized that medication prices could be slashed by retro engineering western drugs so that these medications could be supplied to India and other indigent countries as generics.

After the father died in 1999 the sons began to expand their offerings into other countries. But as they began to grow exponentially the sons ran into trouble with managing quality, specifically for their acne medicine.

And when they were approached by the Clintons for their global HIV initiative, they simply expanded to fast.

When they went after a generic version of Lipitor, they became serious competition for established drug companies, Roche, Beecham and others.

https://www.business-standard.com/article/companies/40-years-ago-and-now-ranbaxy-grew-with-liberal-regimes-moving-out-of-family-control-114102101500_1.html

Then in 2004, within their organization quality records had been found missing or rubber stamped approved without actual inspection. And while it took a few years, in 2012 they were fined the largest penalty in the entire history of the United States Food and Drug Administration. To be cautious the FDA listed a large ban of most all the medications Ranbaxy made at two of their India production facilities. By that time the brothers Singh had sold their shares, so there was contention about how much they knew about the FDAs concerns. That resulted in an out of court settlement, leading to juggling inter company loans across units of Religare to cover the penalty, and the recent expulsion of the brothers from their positions at Religare.

It should be noted that the FDA fine was for the falsified inspections. After conducting intense audits and inspections at Ranbaxy's Indian manufacturing facilities over several years the FDA also reported that none of the batches of unchecked acne medication had actually left the plant. None were shipped out. None of the other medications were found to have quality problems since the original complaint in 2004. The FDA also confirmed that there were never grounds to close the factory and finally lifted the bans.

Random checks of Ranbaxy's HIV drugs throughout Africa since 2004 have proven they were always safe and effective.

http://www.politifact.com/global-news/statements/2016/sep/23/daily-caller/conservative-website-wrongly-ties-clinton-foundati/

Were these corrupt men? Or visionaries in a family tradition of using business profit to expand and serve, caught in a growth explosion they could not manage effectively?

Bottom line, with all the messy human flaws involved, just as with the Clinton Initiative itself, their direct efforts have resulted in saving over a million lives.

Yes they are Satsangis, flaws and all. Egos and all, Lust, anger, greed, attachment and pride. But something else that cannot be denied.

Demons or heros?

On the human spectrum, in the balance, I'd say heros, on an international level.

[777]

Jim wrote

""" Five Holy Names he left remaining in the Files section for years. If you ever encounter them, take a look at “ So Hung” photo, which Lane got a big laugh out of, and left it in his File Section. """

Don't worry Jim
first :
I have never seen the 5 names correctly spelled on the web

But let me for the fourth time
here explain why this is a TOTAL impossibility

The Master was so friendly to seek names corresponding somewhat
with the vibration of the ruling deity/proctor of a region (Brahm/Yahweh for 1/7 )
Both mind_constructs
Don't underestimate mind constructs > They created this Universe
Little bit slappy work

OK
Next a Saint puts His Own Holy Power in the word at initiation
Therfore the Lord of the 1/7 astral bows deep for this holy vibration
and lets the disciple pass

THE MASTER COULD HAVE TAKEN : PEPSI COLA RANK XEROX APPLLE
and put His power in it at initiation

Do you see how ridiculous it is to say he published some

Even the Torah researchers in Jerusalem know this, all these kids
That the real thing cannot be written or spoken

Etc so for all the next 4 regions

These Utra Powerful xillion times big bang energies mostly give giant goose bumps
which will be controlled by the disciple in meditation
the slow removal of the thorns of Ego

I believe I told David here on this blog
together with the Faqir stuff
Next, he published the same week "The Guru Quest"
and suddenly stopped the conversation
I liked Einstein better

OK , when I give somebody my 5 words , I only can put my power in them,
actually something like zero

777

Very happy person with goose bumps all over the place all the time

-

[Arjuna]

@ Jim and you are obsessed with Lane or whoever he is lol.

He doesn’t think about you but you do about him loooool.

You carry and obsess about him. Loooool.

Have a great day 😀

Laters buddy must attend to worldly matters ie work that pay the bills .

X

[777]

-

Why should God create Souls (His own essence) to nag them

Brian's "existence" did create the universes for pleasure
but we should not HURT

It was the first kill (apple was a steak) ending paradise Vinny not pleasures
Stop hurting if you want Paradise back

Jim
Since Gurinder addressed specifically YOU @dera
and U still carry that
here's a thought
you would even harshly have whipped Jésus for frequenting Maria Magdalena
You have never been in the mission of Love
but in Dogma
An attacker like the inquisition
Lane has nothing to do with you
Only with his Master

777

PS
In the above
( yr words )
I have read
you always
were
like that

[Jesse]

Spencer Tepper,
Please don't quote entire 2000 word articles as if the whole thing is a relevant comment of your own. It's internet etiquette 101.

Also, I know you think you're uber-smart and that you "be doing the facts and the logic" and all, but your comment is the same degree of conjecture as mine. The only difference is that I said that I was stating an opinion whereas you seem to think pro-guru-cult=fact.

If you want to challenge conjecture, please contest the RS wiki page where it says Gurinder supports himself on his own and takes no money from the sangat. We have precisely ZERO evidence to support this claim, unless of course you have access to RS as well as Baba's bank accounts.

A man who calls himself God and claims that chasing money is bad, yet he himself chases money incessantly over decades long periods is a hypocrite by definition. You can make personal justifications for his hypocrisy, but your justification proves no absence of the hypocrisy. And the hypocrisy is the meat of the matter. Practicing what you preach is important, and more so for those who personally claim to be God.

Get back to me when you've exited the cult. All of us who've left started where you are now, and thought our way to the exit. You've yet to begin thinking.

Jesse

[Spencer Tepper]

Hi Jesse

If you read the politifact article you will see that it contains only some of the info.

The other info came from another article in Bloomberg.

What you read is not a quote. I wrote that summary.

Though I've been accused of anything but summarizing!

You wrote

"A man who calls himself God and claims that chasing money is bad,"

Sorry but I was there in front of thousands when He angrily told a questioner not to call him that, following by saying, "calling someone God is the height of presumption. How could you possibly know. Please don't use that. You are here and I am here, that's all that matters. What do you want to know?"

So Jesse, all you or I can say is that our experiences are different. And we can compare and contrast those.

But conjecture is born of belief. And if they belief is prejudice then it is a open to question as any belief, any conjecture.

As I pointed out in my essay, everyone puts the facts together for themselves in their own way. You are right that some conjecture is a part of filling in the blanks.

But the hallmark of maturity is giving up favored conjectures, beliefs and prejudices when facts prove otherwise.

The politifact article offers facts from investigation.

Did you read it?

[manjit]

So..... England lost......:(

Hi 777!

Hear this little verse from the ever gorgeous Rumi:

"“Ignore those that make you fearful and sad, that degrade you back towards disease and death.”
― Jalaluddin Mevlana Rumi

Assume here, for a moment, that what Rumi refers to by "degrade you back towards disease and death", he means those who frighten you with karma and transmigration?

In other comments clearly referring to me, you mention later in the posts, as usual very ambiguously, "eating meat" and the use of "cocaine". No (though I am not a strict vegan, and I am quite ashamed of it, preferring instead, through pure cowardice, to remain in ignorance of the suffering milk & cheese apparently cause) & no (cocaine and other stimulants, thanks goodness as I have seen the effects of addiction on close friends, doesn't effect my state of consciousness).

Hi Spencer & Dungeness - your most recent posts (Spencer's one on the "existence is futile" (whaaaa? :( thread) are raw, honest, sincere & wonderful posts with a beautiful sentiment, and I quite agree! :) (though, Dungeness, I would argue the sincerity of Sawan's famous claim to "show" him "a better path". What do you think would actually happen if somebody went up to him and said "advaita", or "tibetan buddhism", or "shabd yoga via breath control, like Kabir, Nanak and other past mystics did", honestly? Regarding dogma, I would also suggest actually reading Sawan's satsangs in print, as well as the 3 volumes of "With the three Masters"; they are full of unbelievable & potentially dangerous dogma, dogma which no modern right thinking person would consider remotely plausible, and indeed think it silly nonsense. Seriously, read those books again!)

In regards the recent "revelations" and critical posts of RSSB & Gurinder, I would think there may be some lessons here to be learnt. And, funnily enough, I get the feeling Gurinder would agree whole-heartedly with these:

Do not judge the guru or path, or lack of or disbelief in, of others! As Jesus, a "Master" Charan had a great deal of respect for, is alleged to have said:

"Matthew 7:1-5
1 “Do not judge, or you too will be judged. 2 For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you"

"Luke 6:37-42
37 “Do not judge, and you will not be judged. Do not condemn, and you will not be condemned. Forgive, and you will be forgiven".

Basically, perhaps we should all hope that EVERYONE, RSSB initiates, Muslims, Christians, sceptics, critics, faith-abusers, atheists, criminals, politicians....even Trump (;-) is equally taken care of and loved by "God" (should there be such a "Being"!), and that even if others are following other paths, other gurus, perhaps even rival gurus like Kirpal Singh or Rajinder, that "God" loves them all EQUALLY so that SHe isn't insistent on putting everyone through perpetual suffering of transmigration as a punishment for not realising the billionaire was, in fact, God-Man, in some absurdist paranoid game of escape your own creation?

Constantly on forums like these you have so-called RSSB devotees come here and pontificate on how special their practice is, how all the other experiencers of "Divinity" in whatever form; other gurus, religions, lucid dreamers & astral projectors, entheogen users, the AWE & MYSTERY of the scientist like Einstein etc etc etc do not know or participate in the "divine mystery" like they do, that they are somehow "special".

Perhaps it is best not to "judge" and think you know & understand beyond your actual reach, and remain focused on your own selves? Perhaps it is the very act of "non-judgement" that can "save" you, should it in fact be your very own "Satguru" who wasn't the "real one", or that this was the "highest path"? Perhaps "Reality" will extend the same courtesy to you?

Talk of threats like "eating shit", or disease and death and rebirth, "agents of kal" etc?

Gurinder says there is no Kal; I've heard it myself! (though as Baudelaire once said “The devil’s deepest wile is to persuade us that he does not exist.” ;).

So on whose behalf are you talking when these "time-bound" threats are made?

"How can anyone praise or slander anyone else?
The One Lord Himself is pervading and permeating all."
Guru Amar Das, Guru Granth Sahib, page 1128

It is said by the mystics of the Granth Sahib, "not a leaf moves without Your Will", so which poster is posting outside the will of your beloved all-powerful "Satguru"?

[G.S]

Manjit,

Where are you from in UK? I'm 26, but my brother and cousins are around your age and they used to do seva in the trenches back in the early 90s. I did seva a few times back in 2008/2009 and never went again, i met quite a few people who weren't happy with the path, maybe you might have been one of them lol.
Do you know Osho Robbins?

Thanks,

G.S

[manjit]

Hi G.S.!

I'm from West London......my local centre when I first started actively attending satsangs (around 1996) was the Hounslow centre, which later merged with the larger Southall centre. I attended that school (Villiers?) satsang hall for a few years, which then moved to the permanent property on Southall Broadway which RSSB purchased. I attended there for a while until I stopped attending (though a while later I was "alerted" Gurinder would be coming there for a "surprise" visit, and attended with a good work-mate (and still close friend) who had no interest but was up for the experience.....memorable for because, me by then being quite sceptical of RSSB and Gurinder, still having a few tears fall from my eyes, quietly (I don't even know why! :) & my friend, thinking me to be quite a "tough" sort prior, teasing me about it for years.....

Annnyway, that was all around 1996 to 2000ish (I keep repeating years & dates more to remind myself than anyone else, which may sound a bit silly! :)

So if any of your brothers and cousins did seva, even if infrequently, around then, I would probably know them??......regulars (on cold & windy days) were only around 50-100 people, so we knew each other quite well.....I was of course one of the "younger uninitiated generation", aged between 18 and 22ish, but I spoke to everyone :)

Which centre/area are you from?

Yes, I know "Osho Robbins"......he played a very important, integral part in my own "awakening" (whatever that even means!). We once even had an interesting day out together to meet the UK "neo-advaitist" Tony Parsons......I keep meaning to contact him again privately, we got to meet up again for sure! But I am a notorious hermit....if you're reading, sorry Brother, I will contact you soon for sure! :)

Anyway, G.S., it's interesting you say in regards your few visits to do seva at Haynes; "quite a few people were unhappy with the path"....actually, mind-blowing. These kind of sentiments were NEVER shared, when I used to go?! On which day/s did you go? Was it "event" related or when there was a "rumour" Gurinder was to appear? On those days attendance used to increase 10 fold.....in amongst which were all sorts of people whose interest in RS ranged from none to enforced by senior family members, so I guess amongst some of them you'd hear sceptical remarks?! :) Asides from that, I was probably one of the most "questioning" people there, yet I absolutely loved & believed in Gurinder regardless!

Anyway, would be nice to hear more about you and your experience, if you feel comfortable sharing it (I can understand family pressures etc)?

Good virtually speaking to you! :)

Manjit

[G.S.]

Hi Manjit,

Thanks for your message.

There was one particular guy who was english, he was confused with some of the teachings, he said there were a lot of contradictions and that Baba Ji was different to the other Guru's. I was in the same seva group as him, all the other people in the group ignored him. Then at lunch time, a few people from the group warned me not to listen to him and to do seva with them instead.
So i ignored him, i felt quite uncomfortable, I had only just turned 16 at the time (2008)
Then when it was time for the private q&a, he asked Baba Ji about the changes in teachings and contradictions, Baba Ji said that there were no contradictions and that he misunderstood it, they argued, and then the guy just walked off. I never saw him again, maybe he was sent by Kal, i'll never know lol.

Why doesn't Brian forward you my email address and then we can talk further?
I would like to share some of my experiences with you but not on here where it's too public.

Thanks

[Dungeness]

Gurinder says there is no Kal; I've heard it myself! (though as Baudelaire once said “The devil’s deepest wile is to persuade us that he does not exist.” ;).

Hi Manjit,

I was baffled by this too. Of course, RSSB is replete
with contradictions. The mind is alternately an "enemy"
that transformatively becomes a great "friend"; simran
and bhajan are our "weapons" but, in the end, "useless"
to take us within; etc.

It would be totally speculative to say what Gurinder's
remark meant without knowing the context. Was he
answering a question, for instance. If so, was he
trying to allay an imaginary fear or a false idea.
Or, was this just a way to subordinate the importance
we invest in childish notions that we can "fight Kal"
with the mind which is itself an agent of Kal. Maybe
the intent was to redirect us to simran and bhajan,
to remembrance of the Guru, to positivity instead of
fear.

Sometimes, you tell a child "there are no monsters"
until he's old enough to understand who they really
are and how to fight them effectively.

[Appreciative Reader]

Quote One Initiated :
I am not sure why - but so many comments of mine are not getting posted,
Is there some filter / rules which protects posting of some comments ?

Hello, One Initiated.

Brian's already responded to your query, but I've faced this issue a few times myself -- and in fact faced it today, just now, just a short while back -- so I thought I'd chime in here.

Here's what I do : If I suspect a comment I'm starting on will end up getting longish, longer than a few short paragraphs, then I simply start a Word document alongside, and do my typing there. Then when I'm done, I copy-paste it on to the Comments box.

If the Comment does not take -- it happens at times, on account of length probably, but no clue why exactly -- then I simply open another browser (say firefox, if I'd been working with Chrome to begin with) and copy-paste it there from my Word document, still open alongside. This time, this second time, it does take.

In the past, I'd had a few long comments lost in limbo myself. And, like you, I'd email Brian and request him to rescue that poor comment of mine, languishing in limbo. But these days I no longer need to bother him over this sort of thing.

Don't know why this should be so, the technical hows and whys behind this I mean, but it works for me. So I thought I'd share this with you.

[Brian Hines]

Appreciative Reader, sometimes Typepad, my blogging service, wrongly puts comments in a spam section. I just checked. None of your comments are there. And none are in an "unpublished" section. I have no idea why comments don't get published. I'll check with Typepad staff about this.

I log in when I publish comments of my own. Have you set up a log-in account via one of the options Typepad offers? That might help resolve your problem.

I do my best to check the spam section as often as possible. Sometimes, like yesterday, I'm away from my computer for a lengthy period, so this isn't possible. I very rarely delete a comment, usually because it actually is spam -- someone using a comment to plug a product or web site. Occasionally I'll delete a comment that makes no sense, or is in a foreign language.

Bottom line: there's no nefarious reason comments don't get published. Mostly it's a Typepad glitch, or maybe someone doesn't submit a comment properly. Again, logging in could make it easier to submit a comment. Like I said, I have to do this myself when I leave a comment, logging in to my Typepad account.

[777]

Appreciated R

You don't have to go that far

When finished, you select / copy your text
next you type shift_F5

the frame is fresh then and you paste your text in it

Also if you have that "Word" habit
Word contains certain command , which after the paste
might be wronly interpretated in the frame
which can prevent posting

I never had problems with long texts
and as the man said
I need only 10 words , . . a delight

The karma I endure lately
is never to be sure if Brian deletes me
You don't know if you go to the voting box for nothing
like is custom so often in Africa,

777

[Jesse]

Years of meditation with the help of the supreme lord in human form, and the ego isn't even diminished enough to let go of an inane comment on a blog.

Is this the fruit of radha soami practice? Worrying that your thoughtless sentences were lost on the internet?

Maybe it's time to try a new religion.

[One Initiated]

hello Appreciative Reader,

Thanks for explaining the procedure that has worked for you.

And thanks Brian, for explaining it further.

If Brian is deleting the comment, or banning a user,
that's totally a different thing than Typepad counting it a spam.

I am noticing definitely some Typepad glitches to have wrongly count the comments as spams, earlier that has never been the case.

[777]

Didn't you accuse my grammar Jesse ?

-
I mentioned only the First Amendment

plus

I''m a rare participant here So Happy about my non religion

RSSB is just Love and that is easy

Are YOU happy Jesse
Perhaps now you have yr way

777

[Jesse]

"RSSB is just Love and that is easy"

Don't tell lies.

Love has no trust funds or offshore bank accounts. In RSSB everyone is a stranger, especially to the guru who doesn't recognize people he initiated. Love requires familiarity.

I'd suggest leaving the cult and ceasing your dishonesty.

[777]

Aaaaaaah

You decide that I'm not happy !

Show me one of 2/400 posts of mine expressing that

77

[Jesse]

I just read my post, 777. Nowhere in it did I mention your happiness or happiness at all.

I said you're not being honest about what RSSB is, because it is in fact a massive religious organization with ties to various corporations which are invested in and managed by both the leader or RSSB and his immediate and extended family.

I've never seen a dictionary which lists "giant religious org with corporate ties" as one of its definitions of love.

Once again, I'd suggest you leave the cult.

[777]

King Akbar was so much richer

I guess the 10 Gurus too

You tell God how to organize and which man to appoint
He could even take you

Anyway
Everything Charan predicted, promised and more became true in my case and my wife's case
and many I know plus a lot of bonus
Fact is : I do not know disappointed satsangis except some 10 or so writers here
today I went to David s blog and saw a few more

Nobody promised the end goal which is "That is Me", in One life
even in three lives although all that is also possible

God is NOT in the business of nagging Himself IN us

Read the Way of a Pilgrim and you will understand
and know how anger destroys body cells

"Leave the cult" . . . are you telling Richard Bransom to destroy his nice Island"

I don't remember you

I guess you are a total and complete outsider concerning RSSB
and I wouldn't address U if you hadn't come with your attacks

777

[Jesse]

"I guess you are a total and complete outsider concerning RSSB
and I wouldn't address U if you hadn't come with your attacks"

For someone who can discern between gods and men with such expertise, you certainly do get butthurt on the internet easily. I, God, never initiate the impatient.

"The 10" Gurus might have been just some greedy Punjabi guys too. The Russian guy in Way of a Pilgrim might have been a superstitious fool. How do you know who is close to God? Just cause their poetry was preserved? Maybe Edgar Alen Poe was the most Saintly poet of all time and Sachkhand is a surreal nightmare.

I have no reason to believe that anyone is more enlightened or holy than myself, Saint Jesse, who were you wise would never disrespect as I'm the perfect living Master in human form. Sorry to inform you, but I bhajan harder, like way as f*** harder than that business man who you're being led into hell by.

Jesse

[One Initiated]

hi Manjit,

I've noted you many times mentioning about eating shit
which itself speaks many things.

I wanted to extend my sincere apologies to you,
for I did use the wrong selection of words
and used a very wrong expression.

You stand where you stand with your
experiences, beliefs and understandings.
In fact everyone does in their own created worlds.

Also just noticed how Jesse is now insulting the 10 gurus.
Truly devastating to read all this shit.

Whenever I will meet HIM,
if anyone who will require to eat shit will be me and not you.

Lots of Love.

[Sri Sri Ravi Shankar]

Just noticed One Initiated is insulting the living guru and God, Jesse.
So utterly devastated and heartbroken.

Sri Sri Ravi Shankar

[777]

Jesse

I don't think you speak many languages
Because your grey cells would be more developped

Do You feel fine with all that turmoil inside of you
Shouting names is not the way
Even those agreeing will turn their back to U
If conventional Khalsa Sikhs read this, . . they certainly will have a desire to trace your IP
and kill you.

I never addressed you without your attacks and have no desire

My explanations are not mine but a resumé/ compilation from Patanjali Yoga Sutras
(Christoffer Isherwood ) Sri Yuktewar and RSSB Masters
Those were enforced by the 24/7 beautiful Anahabed Shabd
jubilated in Jap Ji
which makes possible to see (Dhyan) the real form of many Saints

777

[Jesse]

777 now claiming that terrorists are gonna find me and kill me for a not very bad internet comment about 16th century men who nobody alive has ever met.

The stupidity of religion is all the more clear now.

The funniest thing is that these people such as One Initiated and 777 claim to know everything about God and Saints yet they aren't seeing MY radiant form.

You're both frauds who think popular personalities are real Saints. You'll be born as worms. Sorry.

[Spencer Tepper]

Hi Jesse

You asked
"How do you know who is close to God?"

What they wrote is similar to our own experience.

So while the notion of God may be debatable, the lessons and experiences written in ancient writings resonate with that of many readers, myself included.

I'm curious, what works resonate with you?

[Appreciative Reader]

Quote Brian : there's no nefarious reason comments don't get published.

Brian, thanks for taking the time to point out those tips about commenting.

Re. that sentence from your comment, that I’ve copied above : I’m sure that’s just a general remark, a global remark so to say, as opposed to addressed specifically to me, but still, taking it at face value :

I wouldn’t dream of suggesting anything of the kind! Your blog is, quite frankly, my favorite place on the Internet, albeit I no longer am able to spend quite as much time here as I used to earlier, and not a fraction as long as I’d prefer to hang out here if I could!

And what is more, I believe your conduct of this blog is amazingly laissez faire, extremely liberal, and very admirably accommodative of all kinds of contrary views. Most people like to surround themselves with like-minded folks, and prefer support as opposed to critique (which is a very short-sighted thing to do, and yet most people do this) : while the comments here in your blog, that you so willingly accommodate here, almost always end up critiquing either specific things you say, or else even critiquing your basic worldview.

Now I’d myself say that such critique is probably far more productive than a brain-dead sycophantic echo chamber of the kind that some other bloggers sometimes attempt to cultivate, but of course I say this as mere observer : for the person occupying this central space, to be surrounded by such naysaying comments at all times, while no doubt generally stimulating, must certainly be tiring at times, and perhaps at times demoralizing as well. That is, it takes both courage and fortitude to keep on supporting an environment which is critical (not necessarily always negatively critical, but critical nevertheless) of most things you say. And yet that is exactly what you do.

I guess I’m trying to offer up to you both a thank-you and a congratulations, on your continuing to take the trouble to support this space that is so often critical of your own views. And to assure you, and assure all readers, that (at least in my view) there’s no question of the slightest possibility of any nefarious agenda on your part behind any comments not getting posted here!

Quote Brian : logging in could make it easier to submit a comment

Sure, but One Initiated seems to have this issue with long comments despite logging in.

It has been my experience that, at times like these, simply changing your browser does the trick. I’ve no clue why this should be so, but it seems to work for me.

To be clear, I myself encounter this issue only very rarely, perhaps once in three months or six months or so. But earlier, when this happened, I’d simply email you, badgering you with requests to dig that comment up ; while nowadays, I find that simply switching browsers (in my case from Chrome, which I tend use generally, to firefox) does the trick painlessly and quickly, and without my having to put you to this bother.

For the technically minded (or for you, Brian, should you wish to share this with the Typepad folks) :

Here’s my conjecture about the “issue”, the reason why long comments sometimes end up not getting posted. This is just my guess, my surmise basis my own anecdotal experience, made with zero technical knowledge about the algos supporting this system, but still :

I think it’s not so much the length of the comment per se, as the time you spend actually composing the comment within the Comment box, that is relevant here. If you spend too long in the Comment box typing, then after a point, something goes wrong. (And of course, if you compose your comments within the box itself, then obviously the two -- the length of the comment, and the time taken within the Comment box to type out the comment -- are directly correlated.)

Therefore, when you compose your comment in a separate Word doc, and simply copy-paste here, then even a very long comment ends up sitting in the Comment box itself a very short time, and as a result ends up getting posted (as opposed to getting blocked, which is what might happen if you type everything within the box itself).

Yeah, this is separate from having to switch browsers when it does get stuck, I realize as I type this, which is what I’d originally started speaking about. Two separate issues.

Could be I’m wrong, but basis my own experience this seems to work : (a) Spend less time in the Comments box when typing long comments, by composing long comments separately in a wordprocessing program like MSWord -- no need to save the Word doc, but at least keep it open until your comment has actually been posted ; (b) If you still get stuck, despite copying from Word, then simply switch to a different browser, by copying again from the Word doc you’ve got open alongside ; and finally, as you point out yourself, (c) Log in with Typepad or whatever, because not only might that make posting easier, that also helps you easily access your past comments. And if you do choose to log in via Typepad or whatever, then privacy settings can be tweaked to ensure that this (the whole list of past comments, chronologically arranged) stays visible only to you, as opposed to the world at large, despite your having logged in, if confidentiality is an issue with you.

Quote 777 : When finished, you select / copy your text … next you type shift_F5 …
the frame is fresh then and you paste your text in it

Hello, 777. Thanks for your tip!

I agree, if you remember to CNTRL-C your entire comment before clicking “post”, and if you remember to do this every time you comment, then I suppose there’s no need to take the trouble to open a Word doc at all. Then you can simply CNTRL-V this on to wherever, instead of having to copy the whole thing from your Word doc. (Not that it’s any trouble to open a Word doc, if you’ve got yourself a shortcut for it, but still.) That’s a valid point. Saves one step, absolutely.

However, what you say about simply refreshing your page, I’m afraid that doesn’t work, at least for me. If the comment gets stuck, then I find that simply refreshing the tab, or even re-opening the same page on another tab or even another window -- within the same browser -- simply does not work. You end up getting your comment blocked again and again, no matter how many times you refresh or open a separate tab or window. On the other hand, opening a separate browser (in my case, firefox, as opposed to my usual Chrome) does the trick, every time. At least it has, thus far, for me.

[Appreciative Reader]

And also, 777, what I said just now about the duration of time you spend within the Comments box. If I'm right in concluding it's this duration that is important, as opposed to the length of the comment (with the latter relevant only in as much as it affects the former), then that would be another reason to go the wordprocessor route.

Always provided my surmise about duration being a relevant factor, is correct.

[Jesse]

Hi Jesse

"You asked
"How do you know who is close to God?"

What they wrote is similar to our own experience.

So while the notion of God may be debatable, the lessons and experiences written in ancient writings resonate with that of many readers, myself included.

I'm curious, what works resonate with you?"

I'm not sure that mystics of different traditions had similar experience. This is a RS trope that can only be sustained by cherry picking mostly incomplete quotes that initially sound similar until you go deeper into the writings. On top of that, there is a great deal of auto suggestion going on when you're told what to repeat to yourself and what you'll subsequently see if you do.

Maybe Mr Lane could study the effects of RS meditators who haven't been given a description of what they're to expect. Might find out that all these wonderful inner experiences that one in a million satsangis are having were simply imagination.

Not only that, but most RS books are questionably translated anyway. I'd say most aren't translated at all but rather the name of the author is used and RS propaganda that isn't even remotely similar to any other translation is inserted in place of the real writings.

Ancient writings also resonate with me, which is a big reason why I find the Radha Soami cult's usurpation of foreign texts to be grotesque and offensive. I can think of nothing more offensive than taking someone's religion or philosophy and telling them that "even though I don't know the language or anything about it, I know you're interpreting it wrong. Your ancient religion is actually about bhajan, simran and various other Indian things."

Jesse

[Brian Hines]

Appreciative Reader, I've described the commenting problem to Typepad staff, and they've suggested some changes to the comment settings of this blog, which I've made. Hopefully that will lessen the chance that a "good" comment will be sent to the spam section.

I wasn't doing anything wrong with the settings. They just may have been flagging some comments as spam, when this wasn't actually the case.

Thanks for the positive observations about me and this blog. Yes, I do try to be liberal in the non-political sense of the word. Meaning, accepting of differing views and being accommodating to free and open discussions.

If anyone thinks I'm too restrictive, because I occasionally delete comments that don't make any sense, or are excessively insulting toward someone, they might want to check out the guidelines for commenting on Washington Post stories.

The Post has way more rules for commenters than I do. Of course, they also have paid staff who oversee the comments, and obviously I don't. This blog is run by the Unholy Trinity of me, myself, and I. Here's a link to the Post guidelines:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/ask-the-post/wp/2018/06/11/community-rules/?utm_term=.be3c86eea43a

[manjit]

Hello G.S.! Thanks for your response, your experience at Haynes is interesting.....it brings back fond memories, the people you'd often meet who'd only come once or twice, so really interesting interactions!.....:) I always looked at Haynes Park as a space of intensified "path"...I observed, read & interpreted every single small & minor interaction or experience as incredibly significant, a "teaching" Gurinder was trying to impart to me.....it seems you also had a fairly significant "lesson" learnt there, of some sort at least? :)

You ask "Why doesn't Brian forward you my email address and then we can talk further?
I would like to share some of my experiences with you but not on here where it's too public.".

That would be great! I'm loathe to disturb Brian, he is far too generous with his time and patience with us all (as well as letting us continue to clutter threads with comments which wildly deviate from the topic!)...but I am also a little cautious at sharing my email address publicly.....I guess if you contact me on my yahoo forum email address, I can get back to you on my private email? My yahoo username is manjitd101 ......if you add a @yahoo.co.uk to that, I'll get your email! I am a notoriously slow responder though, so thanks in advance for your patience.....would be great to chat though! :)

Hi One Iniitiated - thanks for your comment, and no worries! :)

However, you write: "Also just noticed how Jesse is now insulting the 10 gurus."...and 777 adds "If conventional Khalsa Sikhs read this, . . they certainly will have a desire to trace your IP and kill you."

Well, One Initiated, I personally (who is a Sikh by birth) do not find Jesse's comment to be an "insult". Regardless, even if it was, I find 777's projected threat disgraceful & abhorrent. And I am ashamed as a Sikh to be associated with such fundamentalist hatred & rage (even if 777's threat is only a projected claim, and possibly untrue), and as somebody who was once a follower of RSSB to be associated with such transparent projection of rage and hatred.

In the face of such absurdity, I would like to again state that imo Jesse's comment wasn't even an insult! Rather, it is a very valid question that I have asked ALL those (elders) around me who believe in past gurus; what do we know about them, really? Perhaps in today's world, they would be caught doing Sat Purush only knows what!? How can we possibly know who they were in their private moments, gurus 500, 1000, 2000 years ago, when we don't even know what the current gurus are up to in their private moments? It is easy for traditional religionists to laugh at the numerous sexual, financial and celebrity scandals associated with today's "gurus", whilst they blindly believe their gurus from hundreds and thousands of years ago were "Saints". The truth is, we don't know anything!

Moving on from that, here is my personal thoughts on the Sikh gurus (I hope I too am not traced and killed by Sikh fundamentalists....I know some of them, and live less than a few miles from their heartland in the UK! It would be quite ironic if they did kill me, whilst most of them probably actually know very little about the Sikh gurus, I used to sleepwalk as a child of 4 or so, and I would get up & go and sit in front of our family picture of Guru Nanak and and place my palm on his forehead for ages, on many occasions.......my mum used to follow and observe me, and tell me afterwards and when I got older! Primary school teachers would say "draw a picture of your family", and I would draw a picture of Nanak, etc etc What's that all about? :).

Anyway, in regards the Sikh Gurus, when I started following RSSB properly, aged 18 or so, I read all their books (multiple times!) and I was forced into an inevitable conclusion, even though it is nowhere stated in any RSSB book even remotely.......that the 6th to 10th Sikh Gurus were not actually "Satgurus", according to the RSSB definition. The criterion for discerning a "Satguru" is clear; an explicit selection of a successor by a "living guru". "Satgurus" CANNOT be elected by a society or committee, they can only be recognised and appointed by a LIVING "Master". All agreed so far? Good :) Well, we know some certain facts; that Guru Arjan Dev Ji DID NOT choose a successor. The 6th Sikh guru, Guru Hargobind, was ELECTED, at age 11, by a COMMITTEE! Further, whilst the first 5 Sikh Gurus were shabd yogis, "turn the other cheek" mystics par excellance, and the gurus whose writings are included in the Granth Sahib (compiled by Guru Arjan Dev, the 5th guru), the 6th to 10th gurus were "warrior-saints" (whatever that even is, as there is no precedent for such in shabd yoga!?) who left no explicit mystical poetry at all (Gobind's "Dasam Granth" was notable to me, personally, as being the most generic and essentially vacuous "spiritual text" I've ever read from well regarded "past mystics", for example one long section with just a thousand descriptive names for God. The others more or less wrote nothing).

This idea came to me, but I kept it to myself (who and why would I tell anyone, and does it even matter, really?!). So, you can understand my surprise that when I visited the Beas library (I used to go every day, as I had nothing else to do at Beas after morning satsangs!), I picked up a random book written by some independent Sikh guy whose name & title I forget, and in it he makes the claim that "it is known" (or some such) that RSSB and Sawan do not believe the 6th to 10th Sikh gurus to be real "Satgurus"!! :-o I was flabbergasted that what I considered my personal theory was apparently also believed by Sawan! I believe I have mentioned this once or twice on the RSS forum, and if I recall correctly, somebody affirmed they also heard this.....perhaps it was MBW (very well known & informed RSSB devotee)...it is possible I have imagined that RSS confirmation though.

Now, retrospectively, I still believe the first 5 Sikh Gurus were "mystics" in the traditional sense........but I believe "the universe" sent the 6th to 10th gurus to preserve this teaching and faith (due to the attacks of Islamic regimes, with many Sikh gurus actually killed or tortured by them), so both "currents" were needed, as there is no way the first 5 gurus, the mystics, would have armed and defended themselves.

Point is this.....if Sikh fundamentalists were to find out about this hushed up RSSB view about the 6th to 10th Sikh Gurus, a view which if not explicit is IMPLICIT in the RS teachings, how do you think they would react?

It is best not to wish attack on others, lest such witchery turn back on you seven fold :)

Cheers, Manjit!

[Catherine]

Just returned from G. Singh's visit to Johannesburg South Africa-

His gas-lighting and dependency on flirting were nauseating. As before, initiates were often depressed, beside themselves and on the brink of suicide. His response to their anguish was reflective of the ' careless rich' of 'The Great Gatsby.'

His visit followed shortly after Mandela Day- Mandela would have walked out.

[Jesse]

Catherine,

Mandela (were he alive and not burning in the hottest pit of hell for his uniquely evil life) should have been thrown out by the crowd and "necklaced" as he and his wife prescribed doing to white people.

Thank goodness Russia is trying to help the Afrikaners. If any of the cultists here want to pray for something, pray for their safe escape from the openly declared genocide being committed against them.

If Gurinder didn't mention the farm murders going on there, then he only came to extract money and he has no soul.

Jesse

[Catherine]

Race is the issue in South Africa, which leads me to ask- 'Are North Indians white?

"History of Ancient India' by Rama Shankar Tripathi tracks the history and cultures of people of Ancient India to the Moslem Rule. Over and over he reveals in great detail, that the cast system is based on colour.

Gurinder is very white; he hails from the ruling class/ high cast Jat system in the Punjab and continues the ancient subjugation of the farm workers as serfs through the convenience of the post Moslem rule vehicle of the Dera- a tax-free haven for his pharmaceutical family; and through a member of the family posing as the self-effacing charming Guru God ( a construct also only permitted by the colonial British after the Mogul rule) In this case the Guru has an unprovable method and an ever changing cosmology borrowed from whatever is currently popular.

Today, Gurinder, is a populist with a dumbed-down, simplified philosophy- a front.

This time around- there are no levels, no rulers of regions and souls just go straight from here to Sach Khand to sit forever next to 'Huzur.' Who would like to do that as an ultimate goal? Anybody? Do we even know what that entails?

Seekers were advised not to google. Initiates were advised to stop reading and questioning. The ideal initiate was described as someone who would believe him when he said the sun was the moon. Speakers, he said, should not really prepare- it was preferable that they spoke off the top of their heads.

I still cannot work out why he wears Sikh clothing- Sikhism ( and the Indian Government) practises the rejection of the cast system- even though most are tall, white, with high foreheads and in higher positions.

Since he was in South Africa, he could probably see what kind of reaction he got from gaslighting not just about what appeared to be a soft target- women,- but perhaps he should try in future, colour, race, weight, height and religion.

At least Mandela thought- the SA constitution is one of the most liberal in the world.

[Dharmesh Pancholi]

Entire abuse & anger of Tara & this blog operator is based only & only on financial dealings of Dhillon families & singh families.
Babbajji is a Spiritual Perfect Master so it will be better for this blog owner & Tara to try & find out from those enlightened souls who are sincerely following the path as a true disciple that what kind of Spiritual experiences they have experienced so far. I know most of them will keep mum as ordered by Babbaji. But I definitely know many sincere disciple who after getting Intiated by Babbaji have experienced inner light & sound loud & clear as a result of their sincere efforts on the path as ordered by Babbajji.
So request you guys to stop fooling yourself & harming yourself by propagating against a True Perfect Master who is God in the form of Human came to the earth to liberate those souls who wanted to get liberated from the cycle of Birth & Death.
Rest is your Goodluck or Badluck depending on your actions. 😊

[Spence Tepper]

Hi Darmesh!

Good post, but while I mostly agree, and can confirm the truth of your statements in the main, my view has changed a bit recently in light of the financial revelations.

The Masters enjoin us to meet four basic vows:
1.Vegetarian Diet,
2.Abstain from alcohol and recreational drugs
3. Live a clean, moral life
4. Engage in at least 2 1/2 hours of meditation each day (that's tithing 10% of our time).

There are other recommendations, such as Seva, and the Masters teach us to forgive and forget, as well as to place the highest value on the Spirit and our duty to develop that through our meditation. Part of that, as Baba Ji Himself taught, is to view the three vows as chair legs for the fourth. Our meditation and spiritual development can only proceed in a calm environment of humility before the spirit, and that is what the other three vows help to create: The atmosphere and the attitude for meditation.

Where there is immoral behavior, the entire system falls apart.

Baba Ji's cousins, even his wife, and his friend Sunhil, all were engaged in land speculation that involved keeping secrets, engaging in illegal activity, and involving RSSB assets (if only as collateral). They gave loans to their own private holdings, and made loans to organizations so they could borrow back from those organizations in order to pay other loans.

In America, we've seen this sort of thing before: The housing loan bubble, the 1929 stock market crash. It's called leveraged buying, buying on margin, and there are very tight regulations to prevent financial collapse. Where those regulations are ignored or circumvented, disaster happens.

So why engage in illegal behavior?

Similarly, the Singh brothers knowingly allowed medication quality inspections to be rubber stamped. This is both illegal and immoral. People depend upon these medications. It wasn't a single incident, but multiple incidents.

In some ways this has nothing at all to do with our mediation, or Baba Ji as a spiritual leader.

But when we find ourselves connected to illegal activity we must, out of pure moral duty, help to bring the truth to light, and to make sure justice is done, hopefully with compassion.

Baba Ji has simply been silent through all these dealings. In fact He pursued all these centers across the globe that became the collateral for many of the loans. His actions, whether by design or accident, became the foundation for much of the corruption that has taken place.

So now he is tainted by these issues.

it's one thing for a Master to act strangely, kiss prostitutes, etc, have folks make platforms until the cows come home.

But it's another altogether to be in the center of immoral behavior that has harmed many other people in the service of those proud young executives trying to better the world by making lots and lots of money quickly.

It's immoral.

And if there is one single benefit that accrues from spiritual practice, from working to become a little less sinful, it is the capacity to understand morality.

And it makes those violations, over decades of time repeatedly, but hidden, and with Baba Ji's tacit compliance, simply the more agregious. It's wrong. No way around it.

Our Master must be the model of morality, not the model of corruption.

Baba Ji would not be the first soul to reach spiritual heights, to help many others, and then fall himself.

No true Saint would associate with such financial corruptions, would tacitly support such behavior year after year after year, decade after decade.

No true Saint would hide their own sins. They are accountable to the Sangat as is each of us.

Vow 3. It may not be easy, but for a true Saint, should be a piece of cake.

The path is real, Baba Ji's power is real.

But breaking vow 3 is an abuse of that power.

[Vibhor]

Tara claims that Baba Gurinder Singh has not built a single hospital.

Totally wrong, he built Charan Singh Charitable Hospital and the Bhota Charitable Hospital, here is the link

http://www.rssb.org/hosp_mcschSikanderpur.html

http://www.rssb.org/hosp_bhota.html

And she claims Dera Hospital has been closed, ridiculous as per the website it is still functioning.

http://www.rssb.org/hosp_beas.html

Since not all claims of Tara are verifiable, atleast these were and some of her claims are therefore false. Who knows about other claims she made.

1989 Dera Eye Camp was going to be the last one thats why only 1989 Eye Camp was filmed as a Documentary

You can download it here
https://player.vimeo.com/external/167816180.hd.mp4?s=cddfce0ad521021ef23f68aa3b8802438830665a&profile_id=174&download=1

http://www.rssb.org/pdf-dl/Love%20In%20Action.pdf

[Yogini neetu]

Mr. Gurinder singh dhillon after departure of Maharaj Charan Singh is not deserve to be Guru, This is Maharaj Charan Singh order for you to surrender your post, Maharaj ji gave you his seat for the welfare of public but you are taking the people to Ashtray, As he is Billionaire and run for his money and business round the clock also he is greedy for luxury like move in private jet etc, and he is giving naam process to million of people and now when million of people will follow his instruction they will gain his greedy energy, for the people who want to become rich and want to grow in business for them to contemplate on Mr. Gurinder dhillon is very good, as he is successful business man, but for the true devotee who want to grow on spiritual path will take him to Astray, Maharaj Charan singh was spiritually lifted man and know the inner path with his own experience, by gazing on him the follower get peace, but why gurinder dhillon is doing this with public , he has to ask for forgiveness from all human for making them fool and accepting he is not Guru, he can not lead the human kind and must give advise to bow head only in front of One God, not in front of Fake guru, Guru and god is same , one but Guru should be complete, but it is very difficlut in today time to find true guru So guru Gobind singh has given command to accept Guru gRanth sahib as Guru, I also state accept Bhagwat Geeta, any Vedas , Guru Granth sahib or any writing of previous true saint as your guru but do not follow fake gurus , Mr. Gurinder dhillon before you die ask forgiveness from the public, and request you to don't give seat to next person who is not spiritually lifted when you depart from this earth, give the land and all for public homeless people .WAO WAO GURU Gobind singh ji before his departure he stated very clearly to accept Guru Granth Sahib as Guru so that human will not lead to astray,

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[manjit]

WOW AND BUMP.

Even more Kudos than I originally lavished for this remarkable collection of comments by the Goddess Tara.

Astonishing these date back to 2014!

[Wander]

If this was going to be written - at least do a decent coherent piece. This just appears a bitter article because you have started to question your perceived observations and seem to have twisted these to fit your argument and point. You seem to hint that their wealth means something snidy is going on. World doesn't change much - poor or rich - lets judge them! Your probably thinking also this is a deluded conditioned follower who can't know their left from their right!
All I'm acutely aware is that my relationship with 'truth' in my relationship - that which I'm aware in this wordly plane, call me deluded - I really don't care. Words are limiting. Everyone is accountable by their own actions - faith or no faith. A good person or god being does not have to be in golden robes and walk on water on this earthly plane. But oh I forget they have to woo us. Lets just focus on ourselves - I'm sure you are now!!!