Devastating criticism of Gurinder Singh Dhillon by a RSSB insider

Gurinder Singh Dhillon is the current guru of Radha Soami Satsang Beas (RSSB), a spiritual organization headquartered in India that has a worldwide reach.

In this post I'm sharing 27,000 words worth of comments left on this blog by "Tara," a woman who had an up close and personal view of both Gurinder Singh (photo below) and the RSSB organization prior to her becoming disillusioned by what she saw, which led to her leaving the RSSB fold.

What you'll read below is an extensive sampling of the comments left by "Tara"from 2010 to 2014. I selected comments that struck me as being particularly interesting, either because they related to Gurinder Singh's financial dealings, RSSB goings-on, or Tara's personal doubts about the validity of the RSSB teachings.

I figured this would be an appropriate time to share Tara's comments, since tomorrow is Independence Day in the United States, and in many of her comments, Tara celebrated her newfound independence from religious dogmatism and hypocrisy. 

Since Typepad, my blogging service, organizes searchable comments by date, with the most recent appearing first, for convenience this is how I've ordered Tara's comments. In other words, the comments Tara left in 2014 appear first, and those she left in 2010 appear last.

Click on the continuation link to read more than the first few comments. I had to insert that break because otherwise this very lengthy post would make it difficult to find my previous posts.

I realize that readers of this blog who aren't familiar with Radha Soami Satsang Beas will find much of what Tara talks about somewhat difficult to understand. Here's explanations of some of her abbreviations: GSD or GS means Gurinder Singh Dhillon, the RSSB guru; RS refers to Radha Soami, shorthand for either Radha Soami Satsang Beas (RSSB), or the Radha Soami philosophy.

What impressed me as I read through Tara’s comments is how intelligent, witty, and well-informed she is. And I rarely came across a typo, or even a poorly-worded sentence. She writes clearly, passionately, honestly. I regret that, most likely, I’ll never be able to meet her.

I've copied in the comments, which are separated by a dashed line, exactly as Tara wrote them -- aside from a few instances when I noted a repeated word, such as "the the." I've added paragraph breaks to make the comments more readable, since Typepad eliminates paragraph breaks in the comment search feature that bloggers like me are able to make use of .

It's really remarkable how much time and effort Tara put into these comments. In one of her comments, she says that a therapist advised her to write about her deconversion from the Sant Mat philosophy espoused by RSSB, since, as Tara repeatedly notes, it was quite difficult for her to leave an organization that her family had been part of for four generations.

I applaud Tara for her courage to speak her mind in these comments, and to disclose what amounts to devastating criticisms of both Gurinder Singh Dhillon and the RSSB organization that he heads up. 

Lastly, if you're not familiar with the Radha Soami Satsang Beas teachings, a blog post of mine about how Gurinder Singh has been altering them would help you better understand many of her comments: "Has Gurinder Singh revised Sant Mat to v. 3.0?"

Now, on to the comments from "Tara"...
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Avi, GSD [Gurinder Singh Dhillon] is constantly on the move and a private jet is always at his disposal. IMO, how does it really matter whether it is from Religare or whether it is a private charter from another aviation firm. The important thing to find out is whether these trips are billed to Beas.

 

Gurinder has become astoundingly wealthy over the last few years and I believe that he can afford his own private travel. In this day and age and in GSD's current position, it would be normal to want to save travel time as RSSB's operations are global. Cyclically, it would probably take two years if GSD keeps his Satsang schedule and visits each center. I don't really think private travel in such a big deal !

 

What concerns me more, is the entire shift in ethos, the making of a quasi-religion, Dera's profitability driven motives, the creation of unimaginable personal wealth through dubious means and the total absence of humanitarian initiatives. ( Sant Mat demystified ? )

 

Oh ! I remember Charan [Singh, the previous guru] sitting in the co-driver's seat of his ivory Fiat, wearing his Ray Ban aviators, arm resting on the window and the wind blowing through his beard. A cloud of dust left in the tracks of the car at the Beas river bank ... through which a cacophony of voices would come alive, Seva interrupted.

 

Men and women would rush to catch a glimpse of him and he would oblige with a smile, hands folded, a " Radha Soami " ... I think I'm still lost, somewhere, in these childhood moments, where I do believe that Charan's love for the Sangat, despite the loopholes in the philosophy, was genuinely present and felt by all.

 

I've been trying to get in touch with the Babani family ( Mr. Babani was Charan's secretary ) to find out what really went wrong after Charan passed. There was a dispute between Dera and Babani's kin. It had to do with a property that was willed to Dera, or so Dera says. By some accounts, Babani died an unhappy man. It will be interesting to hear what the Babani family members have to say.

 

It is futile to compare Charan's and Gurinder's expenditures or any similarities, including the Gurudom. Charan's followers, the old school, are either off the path, confused or are reluctantly on the fringes of ( RS ) Sant Mat ... My own, rather hardcore RS family, is too proud to admit that it has all gone astray.

 

The love is gone, and with it, all traces of spirituality that the mission possessed. The fool from the old school thinks that Gurinder is carrying out Charan's will.

 

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Gaz, I live in India, but I go to the UK and US quite often. I've got extended family who is very close to Baba Ji [Gurinder Singh] and equally close to most people in his first circle. That is how I get to learn about ' the latest ' though it has now become tiring and boring. But, GSD's a great administrator, you got to hand him that.

 

Well, the mildly interesting thing is that even the government / government departments in India are weary of questioning holy men. Somewhere in their collective psyche they do not want to ' mess ' with Guru's. They come cracking down on innocent men and treat them like dirt, but even if they have a sack of mud on a Guru, you'll rarely see them do too much about it.

 

In the case of RSSB, their PR is slick with the bureaucracy, so no one can touch them. I think GSD in particular, has established a good equation with the red tape ... just like is the case with the other corporate giants and power houses of the country. In that sense, I do not see the difference between RSSB's practices and the practices of other corporations, the only difference being that RSSB is seldom questioned and can get away with much more undemocratically, and leniently so ... :)

 

Well, with regard to the video, it was factually correct, IMO. Forget Rampal, he's a weirdo, the same has been chronicled by the oldest Sikh families of the Punjab. I happen to know a very prominent Sikh historian and he told me the same. This information is archived, but some of it is so old that it doesn't seem to have a valid voice.

 

The Sikhs of course, bring their hot-bloodedness to the fore and start quoting the GGS [Guru Granth Sahib, the Sikh holy book] and that's a distraction from the real facts. Also, I don't think RS is ' ahead ' of Sikhism by any stretch of the imagination. Okay, I'm Sikh by birth, but I'm a fringe-Sikh and I'm all for criticism. ( I even pushed the head priest < granthi > of a gurudwara once, in full public view, for reasons that will make for a funny post, someday. )

 

It is just that I think that RS philosophy is more psychologically damaging than the dictates of other missions and religions. Of course, this is my personal opinion, I was a real bummer at meditation and I couldn't see the light. The question is, how many have ?

 

 

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Hi Marina, The Charan v/s Gurinder debate can be an essay topic. I have to admit, I did ( and I perhaps still do ! ) love Charan very, very much. The reverence that I had for him will stay with me forever. Was he a charlatan ? Of course, if RS [Radha Soami] is BS ! However, I just cannot seem to stop having fond memories of him.

 

Maybe that has to do with the vibe that Sant Mat had in those days. Dera in Charan's time was a quaint little place, the teachings were less confusing and the Sevadars were kinder ( or less aggressive ) by a mile. Sigh ! Much has changed. Yes, I do feel sad but that is accompanied by a bitter-sweet feeling. I was very much in love with the idealistic RS philosophy and it gave me immeasurable comfort for many years.

 

Maybe, I wouldn't have been able to go through those years without having the beliefs that I did. So, well ... yes, I do agree with your viewpoint above about us being in a place that works for us for a certain time. But then again, I feel that I was conditioned to think in a certain way and didn't stand up for myself enough, didn't rationalize enough, didn't listen to my logical faculties.

 

It felt good to feel ' normal ' after I left RSSB and I could relate better to people. I felt like I was out of a cult. I felt like I was finally in charge of my choices, for a change ! That can be a very liberating feeling if you have been brought up within the belief system versus when you choose it for yourself.

 

Regardless of the changes, I now feel that there are massive loop holes in the philosophy per se. Gurinder ruined my RS view, but for the better I think. I was hurt in the beginning, but I'm quite relaxed about it now. My de-conversion was not a result of the alteration in the RS teachings, but of the overwhelming materialism that took over and that I couldn't help being exposed to ! It was against the very grain of all that I had been taught as the true Sant Mat path. ( I was actually quite numb to the change in the teachings — when you truly believe, you tend to justify everything and cannot question objectively ... )

Yes, I think my experiences were make-believe, but sometimes a belief-placebo can be good. However, it is far more trying and challenging to live life without a sense of God and I have my weak moments when I do miss being attached to a ' spiritual ' path. I now do some basic recitations from the Sikh prayer books as I think that being on the fringes of everyday religion keeps me grounded.

 

But, my main focus is on bettering myself as a person and reaching out to people. I'm very much inclined to community service and I believe that Seva does not have to be restricted to religious activities. In fact, doing anything to help someone in distress or random acts of kindness yield in as much by the karma-score.

 

I don't know if Charan made a mistake handing over to Gurinder. Who am I to comment upon that ? But, if you do go deeper into RS history the whole thing seems like a big coup. I now feel that there was something that pulled me out of Beas. More on that later, it would be very difficult to describe ...

 

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.. a very interesting thread, indeed ! I would go with tucson's take on Charan's wholly literal ( and not metaphorical ) interpretation of the RS regions. Up until today, RS reps describe the text-book version of the five spiritual planes at the mass-initiations across India while GSD takes a break during the three-hour long ceremony.

 

So, a cool and casual " burn the books " is a huge contradiction, IMO. The salvation laden theme ( via the Hindi & Punjabi Satsangs ) is directed at the unsuspecting ( and most often illiterate ) masses — there's no denying that. The bottom of the pyramid will not " get " the Oneness thing. They're investing in Sach Khand, in its full blown glory and putting their pennies in the Seva box.

 

I have questioned the deliberately different approaches and always have been told the same thing ... " it is all one and the same " ... which is a big cop out ! I'm very well versed with what's going on in India as well as what's being taught abroad so I can say with assurance that the RS teachings are radically different, in different parts of the world.

 

The melange is a trick, a clever play of words that is difficult to sift for those who are sucked in, the believing multitudes. If the truth speaks, it must speak only one language, understood by all. For me, love is the truth. I believe that reaching out to people is far more important than selfish trysts with Guru's, God-men, spirituality and all things holy.

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Hi David R, Charan was the Guru of my parents and my relatives from their generation. Up until a few years ago, I had family members who were initiated by Sawan Singh and my family knew / knows Charan's folks pretty well.

 

Yes, Charan had an answer for everything and he very often came across rather apologetic for what he said. But of course, you couldn't argue with " the " Guru. I always liked Charan. In hindsight, I feel he was caught in the Guru-situation but he played the part with love and humility. He was a sensitive man and that sensitivity reflected in the Dera of that era. I'm glad to have known Charan, he was a grandfather-like figure for me. I cannot comment on his enlightenment status, but he sure was lovable and the Sangat loved him to bits.

 

That kind of vibe is wholly missing in the Dera today. There was always the odd bully even in Charan's time, but this kind of out and out aggression by the Sevadars that you see today is the result of a deliberate policy change. GSD, in my opinion, had very different ambitions for the sect and for himself as well. I know I'll probably get a lot of flak and rage from RS believers, but I'm going to say this right here, at the Church of the Churchless ... The present RSSB Guru will renounce his gurudom in his living years.

 

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Hi tucson ... The advent of cheap mobile-phone camera technology has translated in a spike in RSSB security systems and procedures on all fronts, specially around GSD. When GSD's on the Seva rounds, plain-clothed security men sit like prying hawks amongst the Sangat and " pick-up " anyone who is caught trying to capture God on their cellular device. The person is detained for a few hours and his phone is confiscated and throughly scanned for confirmed deletion of RSSB data which is considered a serious offense.

 

The Sevadars are absolutely unforgiving and it is not like they will tap you on the shoulder and say " hey buddy, delete that pic " and move on. The offender will be subjected to some serious questioning. As a round up, the Security Head will be summoned ( under who's nose the camera-phone went undetected ) and he will be grilled by the higher RS reps. GSD is very particular about these kind of security measures and all this stems from a need of over-cautiousness as the sect has become so expansive.

 

I doubt if there is a black-market of GSD's Satsang's and Q&A's, else something would have shown up online. Charan seems like a daisy, doesn't he ! I still have to deal with believing relatives and family friends and ever so often the chatter begins to get borderline dogmatic. I roll my eyes in disbelief at the beliefs that were once so precious and dear to me. My " karma " I guess ... ;)

 

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Great comments ... I'm Indian and I've lived in India and Europe. Yes, India is overwhelmingly corrupt and the mutation of corruption is only getting worse. We have redundant public policies ( like the labor law for example ) and a real sinister law and order system. I had to bribe a government official in a " public welfare " division to organize a charitable initiative so you can imagine how ridiculous things can be here !

 

However, there is another side to all of this ... People survive the system despite the odds. Of course, that could also be seen as " taking it silently " but I have sensed a melancholic resilience that is very inspiring. There is a genuine spirit of hope, never mind that it may be projected on to some guru or local politician.

 

The poorer sections of society have sharp survival instincts. Even the tea vendor who sits under a tree has a plan. I have found most village people to be honest though their naivety is hard to ignore and a perfect snare for faith and votes. I do not blame the people, I blame the system, the positions and institutions of power that sit atop the populace — bureaucrats, government officials, politicians, religious heads, guru types and anyone else who is in a plump position to exploit ( which would also include middlemen and the insatiable greed of businessmen like Mukesh Ambani. )

 

It is very interesting to note that India's growth has been fueled mainly by the private sector while China's growth has solely been infused by the public sector. When I see street children happily dancing in the rain on a Mumbai waterfront, I cannot decide which is better — a devilish democracy like India or a communist juggernaut like China. ( That could be the subject of another debate ! ) Coming back to the " spirituality " of the subcontinent, it has been proven that we have the most holy-men per square mile. Blame it on that ?

 

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This vignette was recounted by an old Dera resident in the early Charan Singh days : Apparently, westerners and Indians would get " too friendly " and a few incidents of eloping / sex led to complaints from Indian families who had young relatives living and working at the Dera. The Dera management from then on restricted the social interaction between foreigners and Indians.

 

Of course, the above doesn't make any sense in this day and age, specially in the light of the rather radical changes in the philosophy and the new, ONENESS theme that RS Satsangs are now gravitating around. Wouldn't the ONENESS feeling apply to inter-cultural relations within the community ?

 

I've always got the feeling that RSSB was never big on inter-racial relationships within the sect in India. However, I do know a few women of Indian origin in the US who are married to " white " American followers. ( Pardon my choice of words ! ) The " brown " girls married to the " white " boys get to attend the annual Christmas party with their spouses and can marvel at the inhabitant of hostel No.6 who plays GSD in a skit specially prepared for the marked sheep of the evening.

 

Yes, you could have been born and brought up in England, but your original ethnicity and rank decides your " typing " within the RSSB community. As I see it, RSSB is many shades more liberal abroad but they have a biased and racially divided set-up in India. The " white-complex " is quite evident by the way different people are treated differently, as the correspondent above correctly points out.

 

When questioned, the general getaways " his mauj / his will / we are not capable to understand / he knows best " come flying back. Of course, the entire logic ( if any ) behind this race based division is baseless and only creates more barriers instead of breaking down the existing ones.

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Hi " the specialist " ... :) Judging from what I've personally observed, GSD's sons feel quite uncomfortable discussing their dad, Sant Mat and RSSB. They're not forthcoming and the topic is ( usually ) politely brushed off. IMO, they don't look up to their dad as some kind of God but are extremely discreet about their identities as the Guru's sons. Actually, almost all of their friends have no idea about who their dad really is, or have been told something different !

 

They live abroad, so it easier to keep the Beas connection under wraps. They do not have any RS-friends ( to my knowledge ) and prefer mingling with a non-RS social circle. It is a good thing and gives them the chance to be like normal folks, away from the Indian RS grapevine and the Gurinder-gushing initiates. I also think that they value the freedom and opportunity they have, and they seem like nice guys to me.

 

Eventually, one way or the other, GSD will have the multitudes convinced about the direction he chooses to take — succession or otherwise. He often says that he's only following Charan's will, never mind that Charan was quite against the full scale expansion of the sect. Regardless, the newer teachings resonate with the newcomers and it would be easier to convince them about anything, versus dealing with Charan's brood — the hardline Sant Mat followers and villagers who are still steeped in Radha Soami Mat 1.0.

 

Most of the educated newbies at Satsang have little idea of the old school RS beliefs and GSD's favorite catch phrase " burn the books " gives him the levy he needs to abandon it all someday. On the other hand, it is interesting to note that people are more into " darshan " than ever before and that is another reason why the scenario is very confusing, specially for my parents generation.

 

GSD's often said " this is not the only path " so he may be hinting at something different, but there are only a fraction of followers who actually revisit what he says and try and make sense of it all. He is way, way slicker than Rajinder. Beas is the largest RS faction and they exude a sense of superiority over the other groups.

 

Lately, GSD's been seen visiting the other RS lineages in India in an attempt to liberalize his own teachings and to be seen as the Guru-cool from Beas. I think he's very open and would welcome an alliance with Rajinder as long as he gets Chicago ! After all, in his own words " it is all the same " so maybe we'll have a holy conglomerate soon.

 

Anyway, GSD has a plan and I hope it includes charitable initiatives in the future. Beas has a lot of money, I wish they would show some generosity. I just realized I sound like a conspiracy theorist ( lol ) but I'm just giving you my observations and opinions. Good day !

 

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harneet says : " i can't understand why people are so critical of RSSB and baba gurinder singh dhillon. " Reply : You cannot understand because you have no knowledge of the philosophy and the tenets of the RS faith. It is also highly unlikely that you know anything about GSD, his past and the inner workings of the sect.

 

harneet says : " as far as his personal investments are concerned, what is wrong with that. " Reply : Nothing, as long as the means to his wealth creation are not contradictory to the philosophy that he propagates. Plus, I don't see why a Perfect Living Master would feel the need to amass wealth in the first place.

 

harneet says : " he belongs to a well to do family. he sold his lands and showroom and other property to invest further. Reply : He came from a modest background. What do you know about his days in Spain ? And, the sale of a few acres of land in the agricultural belt of Punjab cannot buy a large shareholding in a financial services compa

 

harneet says : " malvinder and shivinder are the grandsons of the previous guru, maharaj charan singh. hence they are babaji's nephews. so he invested money with his nephews for his children. " Reply : You can add another fact to that — the Dhillon's and the Singh's had never been close when Charan was the Guru. In fact, GSD was struggling with his career and Charan had sent him to Spain to work for the Balani's. This horse and pony show ( Religare ) was GSD's idea and the Singh brothers are now tired of pumping in the money. Besides, don't you think that someone as wise as a PLM would have his sons make it on their own ?

 

harneet says : " what is wrong with that. " Reply : Everything — if the position of power has been a catalyst to wealth accumulation, and in this case specifically. Have you read Honest Living ?

 

harneet says : " he has never claimed to be God but only guru. " Reply : You must be referring to Sant Mat 2.0. I suggest you read Sar Bachan and The Path of The Masters. You could also watch a short three-part video on YouTube posted by Osho Robbins, who is an ex-preacher for RSSB in the UK.

 

harneet says : " he is not forcing the radha soami philosophy on anyone. " Reply : He doesn't need to, the RSSB management has strategies and plans in place like any other organization. China is currently big on their radar.

 

harneet says : " it is for those who choose the path. " Reply : More like — it is for those who get sucked in !

 

harneet says : " as far as religion is concerned, he never tells anyone to change theirs. " Reply : Yet, he does say that visits to temples, shrines, mosques, churches and gurudwaras will yield nothing, which is just another way to deter people from going to their places of worship. But of course, the RS meditation is all about visualizing GSD while chanting the über-secret mantra.

 

harneet says : " when a person takes naam he / she includes other principles to his / her existing beliefs without changing his / her religion." Reply : Bollocks ! The mainstream RS believers have actually given up on their respective religions and consider GSD and his teachings as the be-all-end-all of their lives. And, how would you know anything about " naam " and the meditation practice when you're not a follower yourself ?

 

harneet says : " there are no forced donations. only discourses. " Reply : I guess you missed seeing the money-boxes at the exits with those men with foot-rulers pushing the currency notes inside ! I had suggested an experiment to see whether people are likely to donate before Satsang.

 

harneet says : " i am not a satsangi but i have been to the dera in beas and was highly impressed by what i saw and experienced. " Reply : Cleanliness, order and discipline is always impressive. For a visitor, the Dera it is quite a refreshing break from everyday places of worship. However, what you fail to see is the programmed, regimented and autocratic rule in play.

 

harneet says : " it is all about being a better person spiritually and otherwise. " Reply : Really ? How can you say that ? I've yet to see bigger egoists and crooks than the RS upper crust — spiritually and otherwise.

 

harneet says : " and if the philosophy does not appeal to you don't follow it. being critical of something that lakhs of people are benefiting from makes you sound like a bitter and rabid person with a heart filled with prejudice and having a very narrow view. " Reply : Holy cow, you're so judgmental yourself ! What do you know about the ex-sats on this forum to pass a remark like that ? You're not even a follower ( in your own words ) so how can you comment on someone else's experience with RS Sant Mat ? Why don't you get initiated, put in the prescribed hours of meditation and then come back after a year and post your findings ?

 

harneet says : " one man's meat is another's poison. try to live and let live. " Reply : Puh-lease, spare me that one !

 

harneet says : " focus on improving yourself instead of filling your heart with hatred of something you dont understand fully. " Reply : So, you're not a follower, yet you have " fully understood " the RS faith ? I think you've never read one Sant Mat related book and are basing your opinions on some hear-say and a visit to the Dera. IMO, it is about time you " focus on improving " your skewed perspective by actually walking the talk. You remind me of a brainwashed gimlet who's trying to defend something without actually knowing what is it that he is defending.

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sneha says : " nobody is a fool to follow any path blindly... " Reply : First off, a majority of the Indian RSSB following comprises of the poor, gullible, uneducated villagers who will cling on to any Guru-type in the hope of a better tomorrow. Quite sad, but there is no dearth of naivety.

 

sneha says : " they have experienced something... rather whole lotz of things... that is why they follow... " Reply : What have YOU experienced ? What is YOUR story ? Who are " they " ? What is the " something / lotz of things " you're referring to ? How well do you know the RSSB multitudes ? How well versed are you with village-mentality ?

 

sneha says : " if people would have been so innocent then, why Jesus was so ill treated... " Reply : I don't see the rationale behind this question ! Are you trying to say that all saints were misunderstood and / or are you comparing GSD to Jesus ? Anyway, this is an archetypal RS statement, I've heard it before.

 

sneha says : " man... use your brains... you can make 1 fool... 10 fool 1000 fool 10000 fool 100000 fool but not at least crores of people following... " Reply : Yes, you can — look at what the government is doing, it is fooling the entire nation. The RS philosophy is very appealing when you are a victim of mind control. Submission comes with a terrible vulnerability and this can happen on a mass-scale. Browse www.culthelp.info and you'll get the idea.

 

sneha says : " plz there is a humble request that if you don't follow... its ok... but don't criticize... " Reply : I do agree with you on some level, why criticize when you don't follow. But hey, we all have our own opinions and here is where we discuss religion and the likes. What's the big deal ? Of course, you have the choice to not read !

 

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the specialist, GSD prefers to keep a low profile for several reasons. Firstly, public opinion becomes limited in the absence of media exposure. People can only discuss what they read and see. If there is no information about GSD / RSSB in the press ( electronic and print ) it becomes difficult to point a finger. So, this creates a big opportunity to do things quietly, without the scrutiny of informed believers.

 

Secondly, staying in the shadows creates an aura of mystery in an already overexposed Guru industry. The tactic is to retain the charm and curiosity associated with a God-man who is inaccessible. Again, this gives ample room for questionable activities on the inside. Also, there is no dearth of gullible believers in an uneducated and over populated country like India, so the unquestioning multitudes are better than a few rich followers.

 

In the scenario of RSSB and its philosophy gaining publicity, it would be interesting to see how excerpts from " Sar Bachan " that claim that the Guru is God In Human Form would go down with the literate, burgeoning middle-class. And, the philosophy could run into some rough weather with the Sikhs, as Gurinder looks like one, but is actually the Guru-leader of a minority religion.

 

GSD's media-policy has worked well for him and the mission. I don't think he'll ever risk his image by giving a media interview. People dig when they get a lead, GSD does not give a single one ! Not even a single discourse or Q&A session has been recorded till date. The value of RSSB's asset corpus has risen unimaginably due to the rising land prices in the subcontinent so the sect is real-estate rich. All operations are volunteer work so the expenses are minimal. You can add to that a mammoth chunk of in-taxable cash donations.

 

Secrecy is a good way to go, till it busts. I know for a fact that GSD is very particular about legalities — he secures all loopholes. Laws can easily be bended in this side of the world, specially by the powerful and influential. The good thing is that the Indian Government has a lead on the black money trail through a list of Indian Swiss accounts that have been presented by Rudolf Elmer of Julius Baer. But that's just one bank, and of course, the bad thing is that the list will never be made public ! I suspect that all of India's God-men have sizable sums in the tax-havens of the world.

 

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Betty — Like a well-oiled money management system, things are designed in a manner that legally allow Gurinder to make the money that he makes. But of course, from a Sant Mat point of view, this becomes very questionable. Power is not directly misused by the Guru and his family.

 

But the creation of loophole that helps them profiteer from the position is what has funded Gurinder's son's Mayfair residence. Had Gurinder not been the Guru, he'd probably not be crusin' around in a Bentley. Such is the story of most Indian God-men, so no surprise ! But then again, most of them don't claim to be GIHF's... ;) mla — Oh ! Puh-lease ! One silly comment after another. Just tell us that you've been hired by RSSB and my day will be complete.

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mla... I'm saying it again — RS is BS ! If you care to watch closely, Gurinder is saying it himself. And, you cannot compare the " supreme / truth / presence " with Gurinder ! No, it is not one and the same, so you've lost it at some level. If you claim to know Gurinder very well, why don't we see how many people we know in common up there in the RS top-brass ?

 

Do you want me to send you a list ? Will you give details about them ? Should we do this right here on an open forum so it is for all to see ? Good idea ? That way you can rightfully say that I don't know a thing — but that has to be proven, so let's do this ! Ready ?

 

As for the insults, do you think I even care ? Go on, make your own day ! RSSB has become a rule-driven cult, devoid of love and compassion. The days of the Great Masters are long gone— but even if Sawan and Charan were liars, they still look many shades better than Gurinder.

 

Mind control is a bad thing, injecting fear and guilt in people is evil. I believe in charity much more than " spirituality " now. The RS mindset is narrow and easily clutters with judgement. In contrast, the place in a kind heart and open mind, is limitless.

 

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Hi Mike, please send me a private email. Brian has my ID. Seeker2011, I echo your thoughts, well said. Hanging out with GSD gave me a pretty good idea of the business-like, political workings of the sect — quite a contradiction to the stuff that pours out of the theology. Utter BS ! But I do believe that the show will be over sooner or later.

 

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I'm not surprised. GSD is very low-key when it comes to the media. He also manages to stay away from the flashbulbs. How ? A few members of his force comb the scene ahead of his arrival. Photographers and journalists are quietly identified, then requested and / or deflected so that no pictures are taken. He's never given an interview.

 

The RSSB policy on media-persons wanting a byte from Gurinder and his spiritual cronies is simple. They are " humbly " told that the Master's sole purpose is to serve the Sangat and that " HE " does not believe in publicity because he's against " marketing the philosophy " of the mission. Good idea ! Specially, when there are millions to be made on the side.

 

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A B - You're on the fear circuit. I can add a dozen tales to yours, spicier ones if you prefer. Gurinder himself says that he cannot perform any miracles, so how does that make him any different from you or me ? If you let something control you psychologically, then it will and you will attribute every little thing that happens in your life to it — even finding the last parking slot out there.

 

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I'm butting in, but I have my doubts Mike ! I know Gurinder rather well and he is the guy on top... :) He's actually the one who controls everything, the board members are pawns. I know a gentleman who served on the board and his pet answer was " mauj " to everything Gurinder did. He finally quit, couldn't handle the lies. Anyone who comes too close to the power center cannot keep the faith.

 

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Peter, The Beas style initiation is just plain boring, I was actually quite disappointed with the whole session. Gurinder was so mechanical, I couldn't believe it ! There was not a whiff of anything special in the air, it was like a training session and this was a relatively small group.

 

A few months later, I attended the large-scale version and there were fifteen hundred people present. Gurinder walked past the lines with his security men in tow, fleetingly glancing at everyone present in order to omit the unfit ones. ( It is believed that the Guru can see through the hopefuls and himself rejects the ones he deems " not ready " or unfit for initiation. Bollywood actresses are the current exception to the rule. )

 

Anyway, there were no rejections that day, Gurinder has become very liberal lately, it's common knowledge that he rarely ever denies anyone initiation which of course is considered gracious and all forgiving by the faithful. Initial instructions are given by the dozens of representatives, then Gurinder repeats the technique once or twice. It's a drill.

 

Before you exit, the representatives round you up into smaller groups and ensure that the mantra is recited correctly. The strange bit is that they instruct you to keep repeating the holy names throughout the day, in addition to the allotted meditation time, like some kind of background replay the brain. That is entirely impossible and I found that to be ridiculous !

 

One way or the other, they just want to control you. I felt like I was in an assembly-line manufacturing unit. When I stepped out, I wondered what was so divine about it all.

 

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Betty, Leaving was a tough choice, specially when you have family and a social circle attached to it all. But then, the choice was between acting upon my instincts or living in denial. It has not been easy, but I've found the strength to move on.

 

***** Hey Osho, you're so right ! My aunt has it figured out, so have I, so have my brothers. I wonder how long it will take the rest of my family to get out of the woods ! I think that more than anything else, people don't like disturbing their comfort zone. A faith-shake is not for the faint hearted, really !

 

Gurinder told me the same thing — " burn the books " and then followed it up with " they're just there to whet the appetite " at which point I paused : Then, I ( candidly ) said " appetite for what then ? " And he finished up with " you're intellectualizing, you have to surrender. " Later, I thought about it and I found it rather unconvincing. At the end, it is all about towing the company line so " burn the books " is just a lame joke.

 

Yes, I agree, the speakers have seen nothing themselves ! They are pet parrots, put on little pedestals and fed on darshan and importance. I know more than twenty speakers. I've confronted them all about their spiritual " progress " and the standard answer is one of the following cop-outs : 01. " It is all HIS mauj, we can do nothing ! " ( BS ) 02. " We're all struggling souls ! " ( BS x 10X ) 03. " We have to experience it for ourselves ! " ( BS x 50X ) 04. " We must not share our spiritual progress with anyone ! " ( BS x 100X ) 05. " Who are we to judge, how do we know how far we are ? " ( BS x 200X )

 

Not a single one of them came up with a statement that began with " I " and it was fitting to see how " we " and " us " were woven into everything. The plurals acted as a barrier for a more personal discussion, until I shamelessly pressed on with " how many miles to trikuti " or something equally cheeky. I remember walking up to a speaker right after Satsang with post-it's sticking out from Sar Bachan, and this guy saw me and ran the other way ! The speakers are liars, they are like the clowns of the RSSB circus.

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Osho, Marina, Mike, Nietzsche ... :) About fifteen years ago my aunt had a strange experience during meditation — she felt a golden star burst at the top of her head. For many days after that happened, she was very uncomfortable meditating. She told us that she had read in the books that this would happen, but that her " progress " was meant to be steady after that. Soon, she became quite worried because the opposite was happening and it came to a point where she could no longer meditate.

 

A few weeks later she spoke about her experience with two RS friends, who in turn, discouraged her from sharing this " awakening " with other members. She decided to meet Baba-Ji. He was vague and didn't have much to say ! She started to read frantically in an attempt to find out what was happening to her. Her Seva team grew suspicious of her and she was literally " thrown out " of her Seva because she would openly talk about her growing concerns of being unable to meditate. She was deemed a bad influence to be around with.

 

More than anything else, this hit her so hard that she became very depressed and was diagnosed with clinical depression a couple of years after this happened. At the end of it, she found a new " spiritual " group which was a mix of people from different schools of thought — Zen, Osho, Vedanta, Jiddu K and the like. She enjoyed their diversity, actively socialized and lead a normal life again. It is funny how first hand experiences like the one above didn't dampen my RS spirits. That is how sucked in I was !

 

Before my initiation, I went through a phase where I was trying to disassociate Gurinder from the teachings. I had stopped idolizing him but somewhere in my head and heart I wanted to believe in the teachings. I went to the Dera right after my initiation and was appalled at the way the road-construction Sevadars were being treated — poor men who had come all the way from Rajasthan for ( unpaid ) Seva were counting pennies to pay for lunch.

 

I followed them. One of them strayed to a water tanker close by for a gulp of water. The goon on duty ( Sevadar ) rudely told him to move on. I yelled back at the guy. I don't know what came over me but I told him in Hindi " you have no soul you dog " or something like that. I watched them at the local canteen, made conversation. The love that they possessed for the Guru was incomprehensible. We stood and ate, there were no chairs for anyone. Before the meal was over, the goon returned to urge them to eat fast, telling them that there was no break and that they had to report back to duty soon. I felt miserable.

 

IMO, this was exploitation. But then again, I had seen all this for years ! All along, I had reveled in the luxury of being close to the Guru's family and basked in the material glory of having my father's office book my ticket to Beas at a whim. I felt like the biggest hypocrite in the world. I realized that I could not segregate Gurinder, his policies and the teachings — he was the one responsible for the in-compassionate treatment of the poor workers.

 

No amounts of his personal niceties and favors towards me and my family could change that. At the bottom of the RS pyramid is feudal style slavery, and the fact remains that the very people who do the toughest Seva for the mission will never get the chance to meet Gurinder — their God.

 

However, the icing on the cake was Gurinder's son's wedding ! The girl's family served up all sorts of meat at one of their parties where the RS group ( the boy's side ) stood shakily at one end of the garden. Of course, Gurinder knew that they were serving meat and he didn't attend that party, but he had specifically given a private dictate that he didn't want to curtail the celebratory mood and that RSSB stands for an " acceptance " of another's wishes and beliefs.

 

Wow ! I recalled the time when I was strongly advised fish-oil capsules by the doctor and the confusion that stemmed from that led to a " karma conference " within my family. So, it is acceptable to permit meat when there is a wedding in the Guru's family, but a prescribed bottle of medication for a believer is a no-no ? Ah, ha !

 

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The more I hung out with Gurinder, the more " normal " I realized he was. I've been lucky, I've observed him carefully. Strangely, I never felt that same " pull " towards him, the way I felt when I was around Charan. ( Again, that could have been my own projection ! )

 

Whenever I met Gurinder, he referred to Charan on the smallest of issues that he didn't want to be accountable for. One part of me felt that he was passing the buck on, the other cried " You're my Master, you're responsible ! " He specifically told me that he was carrying out Charan's will, playing the role that was given to him. He said — " We're all struggling ! " That phrase got the better of everyone present, sighs of Gurinder's humbleness reverberated long after we dispersed.

 

Well, I wasn't entirely convinced. I think he believes he's enlightened, but knows he's unknowing. He's very confused himself, but yes, he's very confident at the same time. When I was a believer I couldn't look at him in the eye. It was like a confession session and I just couldn't face him ! I was fearful, thinking that he could see right through me and read my thoughts.

 

Over the months, somewhere in 2008, my faith began to wane, and I grew more confident around him. I realized that my thoughts were my own and that he couldn't read them.

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It has been an interesting morning indeed ! I think everyone's correct on this. Yes, Gurinder had imposed a so called " online ban " for all things relating to RS and RSSB. That was in 1996. I asked him about this specifically, back in 2001 and he said " How is it ( the internet ) going to help you with your spiritual progress ? "

 

So yes, he did not encourage seekers. tAo has typed excerpts from the US newsletter that RSSB published. But, that was then. The internet was not as powerful as it is today. He couldn't foresee this happening. Later, at some point in 2002 or so, he changed his mind. He probably realised it himself ( or was advised ) that reverse psychology would work better with the internet savvy seekers.

 

People had started to question him about " stuff " that they would pick up online. Mike's website and David Lane's thoughts on the RS subject were a click of a button away. Then Brian started up this blog. I spoke with him again and this time he said " Why don't you read everything that you can find online, and if you still want to be initiated, then come back. "

 

That was the standard answer he gave to anyone remotely intelligent. Now, he fully encourages a Google search. They are a number of " I love my Baba-Ji " Facebook groups that discuss everything from Satsang dates to grace ridden Baba-Ji sightings at Heathrow.

 

You see, Gurinder is smart, very smart. He moves with the times. Now, he's fed up with the five regions, their kings and Sat Purush. He's discontinued the Sach Khand ferry and has switched to the ONENESS. He went over to the Dayal Bagh faction to embrace their Guru. RSSB has " moved on " and Gurinder is going to capitalize on the online RS information to his advantage. He's much smarter than the " Baba-Ji " people see on the dais. He's now become a fusion druid. Let's see how long it lasts... :)

 

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Catherine, a few corrections : Parminder Singh died in Delhi in 1999 following a prolonged battle with cancer. His sons, Shivinder Mohan Singh and Malvinder Mohan Singh ( now known as the Singh Brothers ) succeeded him. Ranbaxy was always a professionally managed company in the days of Dr. Singh, but following his passing, many differences between the board and the promoters crept in.

 

Gurinder is said to have played his part. Malvinder Singh sought to muscle in after an eruption of disagreements with the professional CEO — D.S Brar, one of the oldest employees of Ranbaxy who was instrumental along with Dr. Singh in shaping the vision for Ranbaxy. Brar resigned in 2004 and it was all downhill for Ranbaxy from there. Malvinder Singh re-shuffled the board and took control. By the end of it — price wars, reduced profitability, debt and expiring patents got the better of Ranbaxy.

 

In mid 2008, the Singh Brothers decided to sell the family's 64% stake to Daiichi Sankyo in a deal that was too overwhelmingly overvalued to decline. In just months after their takeover, the Japanese realized that they were stung in the backside, and Malvinder Singh was politely told to leave. Read : http://business.rediff.com/column/2009/jun/05/malvinder-singhs-ranbaxy-report-card.htm

 

Please note that there was always some confusion about Dr. Singh's name : Parminder or Parvinder, you'll find half the articles on one name and the other half on the other. A short biography of Dr. Singh can be found here... Read : http://www.sikh-history.com/sikhhist/personalities/parvinder.html Gurinder affair with the Singh Brother's had already begun in 2006 with the inception of Religare, the financial services company that he mentored.

 

The sale of Ranbaxy gave Religare the shot of capital that it needed. Whatever transpired between them, it is quite clear that Gurinder's wealth was created by the opportunity that he found or was given to him — by the Singh Brothers. But, it is also important to note that Gurinder may have made a number of important and correct decisions for the Singh Brothers after Dr. Singh's demise.

 

Of course, selling the golden goose for ten thousand golden eggs is debatable, but with the valuation that Ranbaxy got, it would have taken an extremely conservative and competent man to say no and walk the company back to a second term of success. But then again, Gurinder's role as the family's Guru and business advisor, coupled with his own personal business agenda, was a bit too entwined to do any differently.

 

IMO, I think RSSB should seriously consider updating Gurinder's wikipedia information to include Religare. Unless of course, like everything else, he wants to keep 'em guessing !

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Nietzsche, Okay, Religare-RSSB cross holdings are a likely possibility, but Ranbaxy being funded by Religare in 2006 ( via RSSB trust funds ) may be quite a stretch. I cannot say I have not heard that one before, but it would be impossible to verify. Yes, late in 2007 I did receive a few emails when the shareholding was discovered but they were full of stuff that was a bit over-the-top to believe !

 

However, I do believe the word of the senior ex-Religare employee I know, who specifically told me of the movements of money between RSSB and Religare. What I really want to know is what the RSSB trust members are thinking about these money transactions.

 

You see, Charan Singh's representatives are retired, the last one in 2002, and the new appointees are selected by Gurinder. Of course, there are a couple of them who are Gurinder's close aides who are also on the Religare side, but what about the other independent members who live in Beas, the old-school loyal initiates, the scrutinizing stern old men ?

 

You know what ? I think they're all gone ! I now have a feeling that they are no independent Sevadars and the trust is being controlled only by Gurinder and his sidekicks and the financial headquarters have been moved out of Dera. Yes, this makes sense. I think the Dera accounts division must be limited to the Dera expenditure, while the centralized activity is happening elsewhere.

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Hi, Catherine. All property of the Radha Soami Satsang Beas ( RSSB ) sect is owned by the RSSB trust. Gurinder is the head of the trust and has full discretionary powers over the management and is the financial exchequer of all monetary transactions within RSSB. In other words, he's the only boss and the final decision maker on everything. The trust members are appointed by Gurinder and do not hold position through a fair election.

 

It is more like a fascist, authoritarian set-up. Gurinder's sons were under the guardianship of Gurinder's close friends in the UK. Since Gurinder does not like too much attention drawn to himself or his family, his friends were the official guardians at school / college as well, so no one found out that their father is the head of a large spiritual sect in India. They can get away with the " Guru's Sons " tag here in India, because there is an inherent acceptance of Guru-types which is a part of the air that we breathe here. But, can you imagine what would happen if Gurinder's son's room-mate in UK discovered that his friends' dad is a GIHF ? It would have made his Facebook page crash !

 

The poor guy would have been so embarrassed. His sons had a difficult time when Gurinder visited their boarding school in India, but boy, dealing with a GIHF-dad in the UK would be an entirely different thing. That is why his sons lead a discreet life in London. They deliberately choose to have a non-RS social circle and don't reveal their parental lineage ( or their identity as the Guru's sons ) to the ones who don't know. It is quite understandable.

 

Gurinder has set his sons up for a life of luxury — the older one's first job was being a director in his own company at the London office where he would have possibly interviewed people thrice as smart as himself, for a fifteenth of the pay. Everyone wants the best for their children, but most of the rich Indian parents usually don't want their children to rub and rough with the world, or make it on their own !

 

I've met Gurinder's sons, they come across as nice guys. The elder one is a Savile Row regular and is hardworking too. His wife is quite a brand addict, but hey, that's the life that was given to them. They're not the kind of kids who'll do things differently — it's not in their upbringing. More significantly, they have framed a clever disconnect between the sons and the father and it makes perfect sense to keep it that way.

 

Most of the Indian RS high-society has a tendency to be very nosy about the Guru's personal life, specially after his corporate escapades. Staying incognito in London gives his children the chance to lead a normal ( and luxurious ) life and some privacy from a very inquisitive and gossipy " spiritual " grapevine. And, ultimately, it also serves the important purpose of keeping most of their wealth out of the country and hidden from — the taxman, the questioning Satsangi, the old school friend, the doubting distant relative, the ex-sat guerrilla paparazzo : me... :)

 

Anyway, I really don't care about how much money he makes from Religare, I wish he takes it all and has a great life. I'll help him load up the money-train from Beas to wherever he wants to go and tell no one about it ! What irks me the most is that he still seems to believe that he's got something spiritually valuable to impart and that he's carrying out Charan's will. Thanks for the laugh Catherine, you're right... " No wonder he ( Gurinder ) can't remember what the previous Masters taught about Sant Mat. “

 

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For : Mike, Bet ***** ***** Mike, Yes, financial oscillations between RSSB and Religare are a very likely scenario. Money going to and fro, borrowing and lending — it may all be happening. That would also help explain why the Singh Brothers gave Religare shareholding to no other relative, other than Gurinder. The RSSB purse-strings are solely in his hands and the RSSB-trust is mega cash-rich, and a tax-free pot of gold.

 

So, my take is that the Singh Brothers put in their capital and Gurinder was given a preferential allotment of equity based on his three-fold role : One, the promise of the " support of the RSSB-trust " as and when required. Two, Gurinder brought to the Religare table a band of RS loyalists ( like Sunil Godhwani, now Group CEO of Religare ) and RS board members who would keep everything under wraps and unquestionably sign any document.

 

( I'd like to add here that they're obviously not doing a very good job of keeping their secrets secure — I learnt from a top level employee, on a condition of anonymity, that there was some " backstage Guru " who was taking all the important decisions. This informer eventually quit Religare citing questionable business practices, poor governance and the risk of public exposure. )

 

Three, he would give his GIHF decisions, which have been spot-on so far ! It may also be possible that the Satsang funds are being wisely invested, as the mission has grown under Gurinder's tutelage. But, more people also means more donations. And, the financial records at the Dera are periodically destroyed.

 

Basically, it is all mixed-up, but Gurinder and his troupe of clowns are having a rich laugh. Sunil Godhwani exited the quarterly Religare review in a spanking new car after declaring a big financial loss. On the other side, the Sangat isn't complaining either.

 

I went to the local Satsang yesterday and 1.0 recitations of " Kaal " and " Kalyug " were in full force. What a drama it was ! Who is the bigger idiot I wondered — the preacher or the listener ? You see, Sant Mat 3.0 makes the role of a Guru redundant. So essentially, Gurinder has washed his hands off the Sach Khand trips for the english-speaking Sangat. He's left us with the " feel good " ONENESS thing but continues to drive the droves of cattle like the traditional herder.

 

Which is why I think that 3.0 is worse than 1.0 — it is not setting everyone free, only a handful of the educated ones who can decode the engineered confusion.

 

----- ----- Bet, Very good points, they're obviously not concerned about the greater common good ! It would be wonderful even if RSSB policies were selfish about charity and provided something for their own Sangat only. It is such a pity that the poor believing villager cannot be provided with a new pair of one-dollar slippers. RSSB's overtly materialistic priorities leave little room for love and compassion.

 

It has become a pseudo-spiritual juggernaut with a single-minded ambition to acquire as much property and land as possible. Gurinder has doctored this. The ground water contamination issue is a big problem in Punjab. RSSB does not believe in partnering with the state agencies to counter this plaguing concern. Yet, they encourage risky and irresponsible organ donation through motivational videos at Satsang.

 

Being the largest of the holy Dera's in Punjab they should actually be addressing the root cause of the problem. However, they cleverly stay out of initiatives that require monetary investments and resort to skin-deep techniques that makes them look like a humane organization. What a lie !

 

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For : Catherine, Nietzsche, Bet ***** ***** ***** Catherine, I have my doubts if the Dera administration staff will be reading this, and if you send them an e.mail regarding any query that is questioning in nature — you'll probably not get a reply.

 

Okay... Charan was a different man. He was not interested in Ranbaxy and the politics, and often told Parminder to manage his professional journey outside Beas. He was clear about his role as the head of RSSB and did not mix that with a side-business. His own son is working for Fortis today. Had Charan taken advantage of his proximity to Parminder, his sons would have been shareholders, three decades ago !

 

----- ----- Nietzsche, well, " Singh " is a part of a Sikh / Punjabi surname, more like a common middle name, but sometimes people do not use their clan / caste / sub-caste titles so they just go with Singh as a surname. I hope that is clear... :)

 

Logos is the holding company of the shareholding and different investment arms of the Dhillon family. You're right about Gurinder's lack of empathy, and he seems to think that all is fair in business. In my opinion, he just can't tell the difference between " moral " and " legal " so he is very confused indeed !

 

----- ----- Hi Bet, I assume they couldn't be bothered ! Believers will be believers, and for every one person who thinks that I may be right, they are a hundred who think I'm wrong. So, the odds are against me. And, I hope Brian's servers are secure ! All the facts that we're discussing here can be verified online. The company prospectuses of Religare and Logos Holdings are public information, accessible to anyone with a little time and inclination.

 

The personal anecdotes I inject are either first hand experiences or come from reliable sources close to the Guru's friends, the Religare " inner circle " and / or other high ranking RSSB members. I'm not into sensationalizing stuff, but I quite enjoy writing so I end up doing it in a story-telling manner. I may be the voice of many people... :)

 

In my opinion, it is highly unlikely that RSSB donations were used to buy Religare shares. Gurinder has actually done a very good job of expanding RSSB. He has juggled RSSB properties and bagged some good deals for the sect. Good infrastructure and modern conveniences are the order of the day. But wherever there is growth, there is money to be made.

 

It is like the government of a developing economy. Everyone benefits and the positive trickle-down effect is felt by all. Except of course, this is a " spiritual " organization and the benefits here are non-materialistic for the bottom line. Yes, the same money that goes into buying an expensive Satsang parking-lot can instead be used for healthcare for the poorer sections of the Sangat. It is a matter of priority, entirely.

 

I don't think that Gurinder is siphoning money directly out of the RSSB-trust coffers ! However, I believe that the trust money is being managed by Religare and Gurinder is a major shareholder of that company. It makes sense for the Guru to manage the RSSB-trust money through a financial services company that he partially owns. He's well versed with both sides, so who will take who for a ride ?

 

Anyway, he may not be directly profiting from RSSB but profiteering from it via Religare. Well, this is not as verifiable as the Religare shareholding, but I have my reasons to think it may be the case. But, even if the RSSB-trust surplus is being managed by Religare, it is a marginal activity. But then again, if an old RSSB property is sold for 50 million USD and Religare gets the brokerage, you can do the math !

 

And, why would they get another asset management company to do the deal when they can take care of it in-house ? But of course, RSSB has bought many properties internationally and Religare has an international presence as well. But still, all of it would be a minuscule amount of business, but also, a possible RSSB-Religare commercial connection.

 

To add to that, the RSSB-trust accounts are close to external audits. So, if I'm beginning to get speculative about Gurinder's jet-fuel consumption and where that Falcon 7X flies him, he has the choice to come clean and tell us where he's invested the 50 million USD that came into the RSSB purse from the Ahmedabad land deal.

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Nietzsche. Great ! You've made the effort to backtrack into Gurinder's current financial status and what you've stated sums up the facts very well. I'm relieved that what I've been harping about on the COTC ( that makes me sound like a conspiracy theorist in the process ) has some validation from an independent fellow blogger... :)

 

My additional thoughts are : Gurinder ordered the Ranbaxy sell-out, and as a faith policy, Shivinder and Malvinder do not over-rule anything HE decides. The final " go ahead boys " was given by Gurinder. I know this because the celebratory cheers resounded with a boisterous " Baba-ji does not make any mistakes ! " that came from none other than Sunil Godhwani, Baba-ji's right-hand man.

 

Before the news hit the press, everyone knew that a chunk of that booty would be pumped into Religare. Of course, Ranbaxy's health was generously inflated, but the sell-out was the best possible move from a financial standpoint — considering that the Singh Brothers made quite a mess of the succession when they inherited the company, which subsequently reflected in the company's performance over the years.

 

There was a joke in the corporates circles here that Parminder Singh was in a big shock in heaven when he learnt that Gurinder had advised his sons to sell Ranbaxy. His reaction was : " What ? Who the f*** is he ? " ( LOL ) This entire Religare affair that Gurinder's having with the Singh Brothers is in direct conflict with his role as a Guru, whether he's teaching 1.0 or 3.0. His insatiable appetite for wealth is sick, specially when there is no charitable initiative for the poorer sections of the Sangat that make up for ninety-five percent of his following.

 

IMO, Gurinder wants them to remain hungry and foolish otherwise they will not be interested in the salvation promise, which is why I think that Sant Mat 3.0 will never be introduced to the langar. You are absolutely right about the Mc-Donald's style of operations at Fortis. Also, the services they provide are the Micky-D's equivalent of fries and nuggets. It is all about the money, with little regard for ethical practice and human life.

 

But, it is interesting to note that post Ranbaxy, none of the Singh Brothers' businesses have been particularly profitable. It is too early to call, but Fortis is struggling. And, going forward, the competition will intensify. Religare is hemorrhaging under the acumen-devoid leadership of Sunil Godhwani and is showing no signs of recovering. Religare continually gets mini bail-outs from the huge cash reserves that the Singh Brothers are currently sitting on, but the well could dry-up in less than a decade if their current run continues.

 

It is also possible that Gurinder could make some bad ( not-so-GIHF ) decisions. Our comments here are forming a valuable archive for those who will seek to find out more, specially after the radical shift in the Sant Mat teachings. I like the Japanese quote, it applies to all of us.

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Nietzsche. No ! No ! Lets get this straight. Analjit Singh has not become rich on the backs of his nephews — the Singh Brothers. He was Bhai Mohan Singh's youngest son and Parminder Singh's youngest brother. Following a family division in 1989, the pharma business ( Ranbaxy ) went to his older brother ( Parminder ) and he got the smaller Max India. Has since built it into $1 billion ( sales ) Max Group with interests in healthcare, insurance, clinical research and packaging.

 

Currently, his healthcare business ( Max Hospitals ) is the biggest competitor of Fortis Healthcare, which is the healthcare business of the Singh Brothers. They are business rivals and the two families have never had any commercial alliance with each other after they parted ways in the Charan Singh days. Of course, they have often dragged each other to court over petty disputes ( a small property or some section of Bhai Mohan Singh's will ) but it was Analjit who got the raw deal when his father preferentially gave Ranbaxy to his oldest son.

 

For more on Analjit, this article sums it up well : http://business.in.com/article/boardroom/analjit-singhs-futureproof-strategy/24072/1 Gurinder's two sons, Gurpreet Singh Dhillon and Gurkirat Singh Dhillon can be found on the Indian Billionaires Club on the website here : http://www.indiastudychannel.com/resources/87721-Billionaire-Club-Ranking.aspx

 

Okay friend, stop looking for Gurinder on that list ! He's way smarter than that. The legitimate money is in his sons' names who live in London. It is highly likely that the larger ill-legit amounts are off-shored safely in the private banks of Switzerland and Liechtenstein.

 

His sons lead a rather discreet life in London. Most of their friends do not even know who their father is ! I can't find the latest rankings where they are at 355 / 356, but this rating ranks them at 360 / 361 respectively. ( I'll tell someone to search it out and I'll post it later ! )

 

Another correction — Ranbaxy was not sold last year, it was in the June of 2008. Immediately after that ( in July ) the Singh Brothers formally changed the name of Fortis Financial Ltd. to Religare Enterprises Ltd. The name " Religare " was chosen / approved by Gurinder. ( The etymology of the word « religion » in latin : Religare, means to bind. )

 

What else ? Hmmm... Yeah, there is a ton of stuff on Ranbaxy's dubious business practices. They were quite infamous for their animal testing methods, that is fine, but the promoters followed a rigid spiritual path that did not permit mayo. Oops ! Gurinder is the only " relative " who is a business partner and has made big money with the Singh Brothers. The rest of them are high paid employees, like Charan's son Cuckoo who works for Fortis Hospitals.

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Catherine, I think I'm grappling with the conditioning after my de-conversion. I left RS over a year and a half ago. As much as I'm enjoying my new found perspective, on some days, like an old habit, I find myself thinking along the conditioned patterns. But, I instinctively recognize it. I've never doubted my reasons to leave, though I have to admit, I do have my weak moments.

 

Fortunately, the older members in my family have been very supportive and have encouraged me to think for myself. On some level, they're quite confused themselves. We've talked about everything that I write here. Both my brothers are also ex-RS's, I'm very happy that our generation has made the shift. You're right, Gurinder is not crying. In fact, he's laughing, and all the way to the bank.

 

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Marina, it is early morning here, I read all your comments. On both the active threads, Osho Robbins has given you some valuable advise and Nietzsche has raised some interesting points as well. I agree with their thoughts. Here are some of my own :

 

Up until my de-conversion, I broke no RS rules. I was raised a lacto-vegetarian and so I was never tempted to eat meat. As most bakery items contained egg, those were firmly in the " not fit for consumption " category. But that was life as I knew it and it was wonderful while it lasted. My sense of security was intact and I felt loved and protected by Charan and Gurinder. I did not seek any answers because I had no questions.

 

I would sit in Q&A sessions and find it really funny when westerners would ask the Guru questions that he could not answer. I would feel bad for their lack of faith but hey, I wasn't even initiated ! By the time I was 21, I had unknowingly become a big ego ball with full " faith " in this " path " that had me more confused than I was aware of. I could hardly wait to get initiated and made important choices in life that were aligned with my RS belief system.

 

The vast amount of bull-crap I took from people was on the pre-text of the karma theory. On the rare occasions when I had conflicting feelings about the path, I would be hard on myself and felt terrible about it for days. As an adult I was afraid of the dark and couldn't sleep alone in a room. My inability to take confident decisions made me intellectually weak. I became hyper sensitive, yet extremely judgmental of others.

 

This path was the be-all and end-all of my life and my emotional dependence on the Guru increased after initiation. My inability to meditate made me extremely guilty and fearful of the outcome. As every month went by, the burden of not meditating at dawn frustrated me. I had mood swings and negative thoughts. I was advised by a senior RS member to restart my meditation seriously — to make it the top priority in my life.

 

I was momentarily relieved and for three months, I tried my best to meditate. I was physically uncomfortable, I saw nothing, heard nothing. One day, I made the conscious decision to quit the meditation. I realized that there was no point in doing something that did not come naturally to me. In my seeking years I used to think that I was a very special soul and that it would not take me long to reach Trikuti !

 

I was the RS idealist, partially because of my conditioning and partially because of a deep internal pull I had towards the path and the Masters. I don't know what that " pull " was, but strangely enough, I still feel that way for Charan sometimes.

 

After the short meditation stint, I tried chanting Shiva Mantras with my yoga teacher. He has a lovely voice and together we would sit in my garden and chant. The birds in the trees gave us company, my dogs chased the squirrels. I felt better. It was fulfilling. I continued to go to Satsang and did my Seva, but realised that the meditation was not for me. Each and every Satsangi that I spoke to, including a dozen preachers, candidly confessed that they were still waiting for the Guru's " grace " and were " struggling " with their meditation. However, almost all of them said that they were determined to be dutiful.

 

Ironically, my failure at Simran and Bhajan is not the reason I left RS Sant Mat. About two years ago, a chain of events unfolded that were simply too absurd to rationalize and were against the very grain of the philosophy that I had been brought up with. As my family was higher-up in the RS hierarchy, I was witness to a rather controversial set of issues that left the RS underbelly exposed.

 

I thought of myself as an adult for the first time and my heart said — NO. I've had no second thoughts. The withdrawal was never going to be easy, but I was prepared for it. Much has changed in my life, for the better.

 

Why am I sharing all of this ? Because I believe that if I could move on from Sant Mat, anyone can. All it takes is : 1. The understanding of Sant Mat 1.0 and a peek into Gurinder's 3.0 update. 2. The realization that being an RS initiate will change nothing in your life. 3. The self belief to face reality for what it is, without the Guru. 4. The courage to acknowledge that RS is / was a learning experience. 5. The willingness to voluntarily unlearn the indoctrinated. 6. The re-establishment of your own competence to judge. 7. The love and support of family and friends. ( And fellow bloggers ! ) 8. None of the above. You will know it when it happens.

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David, thanks for your kind words. Marina, this is for you too... :) I do believe in the existence of a supreme, a supreme truth. Well, most of the time ! Somewhere in my heart and head, I think I want to be a " believer " in something again. But then, ever since my departure from the RS philosophy, I feel that logic and reason have taken precedence over all things holy. I feel more connected with people, less fearful, less guilty.

 

The single most significant thing that happened to me after I left the RS path was that I learned to trust myself again. I lost my sense of God but I gained clarity of thought. I have to admit that I still have a lot of love for Charan, my family knew him well. He was like a grand-pa figure for me, a part of my childhood. That is why I don't try too hard to empty out all my feelings. My life has changed for the better. 

 

The reason I feel cheated is because I held the path so dearly, I felt like the faith that mattered to me most — just fell by the wayside. And, there was a great deal of mental conditioning as well, since childhood, so it hurt twice as much ! Letting go is ( and continues to be ) very difficult. Shedding a belief system is not easy, specially if you have believing family members !

 

But, I've learned to entertain thoughts without accepting them and so I can socialize with some Satsangis without an internal conflict.

 

You're right about the Guru Business, it is one big scam, a quicksand for the psyche. I thank my lucky stars that I had a streak of discernment in my otherwise brainwashed mindset ! Maybe I got a better view of things because I had read most of the RS literature at a very young age. I had a good sense of Sant Mat 1.0 quite early on in life. Then Gurinder came along, my world turned upside down.

 

But, I think Gurinder has been good for me. He set me free. I've tried a whole bunch of practices — pranic healing, reiki, hypnotherapy etc. Nothing " happens " to me other than feeling relaxed. I've not met a clairvoyant person. Yes, I've had a few telepathic and precognitive experiences, but that could be intuition or chance. I'm not sure. Isn't psychokinesis akin to magic ?

 

I was out with a bunch of friends the other day, and someone mentioned karma. I said that I don't believe in karma anymore, I think that the concept of karma is quite twisted. Then someone asked me, " How would you explain the death of a child ? " and I did not know what to say. ( ?? ) ut, I've learned to entertain thoughts without accepting them and so I can socialize with some Satsangis without an internal conflict.

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Marina, I'm sorry to hear about your son. I can now relate to your quest for the truth, from that perspective. I hope you find what you're looking for. I sincerely mean it. ***** ***** **

 

On a separate note, my thoughts follow from your comment above, they are — Gurinder has made a choice to " go along " with the literature, else the contents would have been edited. He's been the Guru for over two decades ! Book covers have changed, almost all of them, but the books remain intact with fables of fantasy, RS dogma and the explicit notion of the Master coming to " receive " the disciple at the moment of death.

 

For as long as RSSB continues to sell the unrevised literature, this is exactly what Gurinder is propagating. Whether he admits it himself or not, it is implied that he will " bring back and merge with God " each and every " marked soul " that has been initiated by him. Old fashioned literature for old fashioned times ? Well, does the " truth " change with the times then ? My guess is that Charan would think otherwise.

 

Marina, Gurinder's " good logical reasoning " is comforting, but what does the Satsangi go back to when Gurinder charming little talk is over ? The meditation cushion in the corner and the thumb in the ear — its back to the books. The only reason we are told to mediate is that we are supposed to make a divine connection with Sat Purush through Simran and Bhajan, in this lifetime. That we will " experience " what is written in the books.

 

Now Gurinder fondly talks about the ONENESS and says that there are no " regions " as such, just planes of consciousness. How modern ! But, where is Sach Khand then ? On one hand you have Gurinder telling you to not eat rennet and on the other he tells you that no one will come at the time of passing. What's going on ?

 

I come from a fourth generation of RS believers where I was fed on a diet of Sant Mat 1.0 and Charan never split hairs about pecorino and parmigiano ! I was not joking about what I said about wine and shellfish ! Gurinder actually told someone I know that he should focus on his business and meditate when he finds time. We interpret more than we need to.

 

Sometimes, when he says " do what you want " he's probably just ( humanly ) fed up and means that he really wouldn't care about whether I'm having a chianti or a pinot noir. I agree, it must be incredibly difficult being in his position. It is a very difficult role. But then, why impose more rules ?

 

I know Satsangis' who mouthwateringly gawk when I dig into a slice of margherita. But sure, the more I give up for my Guru, the more expectations he sets up — for me, for you, for the entire following. And, then he embarks on a dogma-bashing trip at a Q and A session, turning Sant Mat 1.0 on its head and leaving people dangerously confused.

 

I sense from your comments that Gurinder is probably your first RSSB Guru. Well, to cut it short, you probably know little about his financial adventures. The Gurinder that you know is the " Guru Cool " and we all tend to believe what someone smart, dynamic and rich has to say. But when I run Sant Mat V-1.0 through Gurinder's financial beginnings, his involvement with the Singh Brothers, his facade of austerity, his actual net worth — my Mac has major incompatibility issues. ( Can someone help, please ! 

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Marina, from your above comment it seems like you have a flirtation with Sant Mat. The die-hard RSSB initiate thinks otherwise. Good for you ! Okay, Gurinder is lightening up a little, but what has really changed ? Will he announce the up-gradations of RS Sant Mat himself and debunk the pile of outdated RS literature ? ( We both know that this is never going to happen ! )

 

You say — " I personally have no problems with SM versions updating as ‘times are a changing’ and anyway, what can be said of the truth ? As MirDard says - Speech at best is an honest lie. ” MirDard is " spiritual " mumbo jumbo, but it becomes skewed mumbo jumbo when the RS publication department is given the task to decode the poet's musings.

 

Gurinder is ( according to the RS doctrine ) the Param Sant Sat Guru who is the only person / GIHF on earth who has a connection with Sat Purush. Isn't this basic pretext of the RS mission in line for a minor tweak ? You say — " Don’t need to be splitting hairs over eggs / cheese rennet. " Wrong. Says who ? Gurinder himself added rennet to the forbidden list. The obeying Sangat was merrily eating pizza before that tenet came into play. And, an egg-glazed croissant is a still a big boo-boo. Food label scrutiny is an art that has been perfected by the younger generation of the UK Sangat.

 

You say — " He told me I could do what I wanted but advised me not to give up my simran. " Wow ! Astonishing indeed. You can " do what you want " in HIS words ? Really ? You're a lucky chic ! So I assume it would be okay if I had half a bottle of merlot and chargrilled prawns before I sit down to meditate ? ( Sant Mat 4.0 ! )

 

You say — " He also said when talking to me that we westerners are full of concepts. Like believing it will take four lifetimes, master will meet us after death. I was a bit shocked at that last part. " I'm happy that another RS Satsangi has put this on record. And, if RS is not one big concept in itself, then let's all get to see a two minute sneak peek into the lands of Sach Khand. I'd also like to know where my Grandfather is.

 

You say — " At another point during the conversation he said that Hector was writing a new book on concepts and illusions. " Well, I guess the RS literature will have another confusing two hundred or more pages. Or maybe, those are the cats ears, if Gurinder has decided to let the cat out of the bag ! ( I've seen it coming for a while. )

 

You say — " Regarding how much money BJ has, it doesn’t bother me. I don’t see any wrong in acquiring money and I would like to know his skills in the stock market. "

Marina, I've not been able to comprehend the above. Wouldn't you care to find out how Gurinder has made large sums of money after he became the RS Guru ? Have you read Honest Living ? So, is it okay to profiteer from the RSSB-Trust money ? Is it okay to structure your financial clout in such a way that the average Satsangi will think that the Guru has a small farming business ? Is it okay to hide your wealth ?

 

There is nothing wrong in the Guru acquiring money, but there is everything wrong in the Guru acquiring money by the means that the Guru himself preaches against. And, Gurinder has no special hands-on stock market skills. He has hired professionals to do the job for him. Your story about the little boy taking a walk in the woods is at best — cute. When it comes to defining my eating habits and committing to a rigorous meditation practice for a lifetime, I would much rather prefer a Guru who doesn't beat around the bush.

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TonyM, as you know, none of Gurinder's talks / discourses / Q & A's are recorded so that gives him the added advantage of being happily inconsistent. These are cult strategies, too bad the Sangat knows nothing about what goes on behind closed doors. Mystics don't manufacture their following like hand-cut potato chips, the enlightened one ( if there is such a thing ) is probably perched atop a glacier with a mountain hawk for company.

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Osho, Gurinder does comes across rather liberal in his talks. If he preaches about the ONENESS, then why doesn't he edit the RS literature once and for all, and get rid of the GIHF tagline ? With all that alleged "modernization" of the sect, did he overlook the literature erroneously ?

 

IMO, there is a well constructed strategy in place. Gurinder must look like a charming liberal philosopher when followers hear him talk in person. Everyone likes a charismatic, open-minded guy on stage. But once the session is over, people are left with the hardline fundamentalism in the contradicting literature.

 

Add to that the peddling representatives and you've got utter confusion ! In Q & A sessions, what are the chances of him replying straightforwardly to a quoted paragraph from an RS book that needs explanation to the seeker ? Slim. Slimmer than seeing the light. I'd expect the question to be dodged into oblivion and the questioner will probably feel like a deer in the headlights. A subtle cacophony of jeers will follow and that's how the " Do Not Question " rule comes into play. ( That is just so crazy ! )

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Jay, I actually have more of a life after I shed my RS belief system - I think I have more clarity of thought and I'm not as fearful as I used to be. My holy little " spiritual ego " went for a toss and that was a very humbling experience. It felt good to know that I was just another ordinary person and I could connect with others without an air of superiority or pretense. I realized that just by being on a spiritual path does not make you a better person, you have to work quite hard at improving yourself. Life is organic. Change is good. I now seek ways to make my present fulfilling without worrying too much about the future. The biggest lesson ? " I don't know " brings you back to the drawing-board.

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No discussions on the internet. Period. No discussions about spiritual experiences with fellow initiates. No questioning the Master about ( his ) materialistic life in Q & A sessions. — — Many things are forbidden, the list goes on. Then you're expected to be content in the darkness of a rigorous morning meditation — for the rest of your life and be fearful and guilty along the way. Where there are too many dictates, there can be no feeling of bliss.

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Hello DAS SA - I read your comment and meant to reply to it earlier but life has been rather hectic and blogging has taken a bit of a backseat... :) Well, I've heard many, many similar stories. But, then I've also seen ( first-hand ) how clueless Gurinder was when my grandfather passed !

 

I think when people devote a lifetime to something that promises redemption in the end, people are committed to believing in what they were conditioned to believe. I think it is more of a wish, a belief that " the Master has come " and maybe a way of re-assuring themselves that a " Sach Khand " awaits. Besides, if the Radha Soami path is actually a " Science of the Soul " as they claim it is, then at least a few things should be demonstrable by the Master himself.

 

Gurinder has always discouraged the notion of the Master coming to get the disciple at the time of death and has even said " no one comes " to an ( aghast ) audience on a few occasions, which is later interpreted by the faithful as a sign to up the meditation meter. I have often mentioned on the blog that even when it comes down to this " worldly life " as they call it, it is evident that Gurinder is running RSSB like a business and his own personal life is a testimony to that, so I think that this entire " spiritual trip " is one hell of a wild goose chase.

 

But maybe, when one has put years of meditation, has seen nothing, has continued to believe and thinks that he / she has had " purpose " to life, then the individual is probably satisfied with their own efforts, which has always been the focus of the RS belief-system : it is what you give, not what you get. So that sense of satisfaction of a life lived by the principles and dictates of the RS philosophy can culminate into an overwhelming sense of an " Ah ! Ha ! " moment before they pass — my guess is that it probably is a feeling of victory, like winning a race. Of course, there probably wasn't any race to run.

 

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A quick look at RSSB's Haynes Park outfit in the UK confirms what Jon has said above — the westerners are a diminishing lot amongst the congregation. A slew of young ( eighteen-something ) spiritual enthusiasts have taken up ranks amongst the Seva-doers. These new-kids-on-the-block ( almost all of them are Indian ) demonstrate a fanatic-like love for Gurinder.

Wayne, head of the publishing department at the Dera had once told me of the impending " change of strategy " that would include newer " markets " for furthering the mission. If the westerners have thinned out at one end, a large Chinese contingent has marched in on the other. It is February and at this time of the year, a few hundred Chinese seekers will go to Beas. They'll take over the international guest house kitchen and serve up veggie dim-sums and other tofu-infused fare to fellow international Satsangi's as well. They'll sing Chinese shabads and those " marked " for initiation will be initiated in Mandarin / Cantonese !

 

I've heard that the Chinese don't question very much and are a very obedient lot. As one website put it : " India - A land featuring 7.4 million Gods, countless Godmen and infinite worshippers… "

 

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I met another one of Gurinder's old friends, a gentleman who now lives in Scotland. He told me that he was shocked when he learnt of his Guru-friends' recent wealth !

 

He also added that Moga ( as Gurinder is fondly called by his pre-guru-days friends' circle ) is living on the edge with his growing tide of greed and that land-grabbing has now become a common RSSB practice.

Believers, your " Master " is a fraud — that's as simple as it is. Much exploitation is possible in the name of " spirituality " and for the sake of the millions of followers who bow to his pretentious backside, I wish that this cult comes crashing down and Gurinder has no where to hide.

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Kabir Advani - People who are brainwashed by cult practices almost always find a way to rationalize and justify the obvious fallacies and malpractices within the cult. It is a part of expressing what you will call " unshakeable faith " in the the cult. In your case - RSSB. I know my facts well, you're simply dismissing them as " conclusions " because you are auto-conditioned not to question.

The " fact " remains that Gurinder has said himself " We are a spiritual mission, not a charitable one... " And, just FYI, the Dera Hospital caters to a fraction of the people who need eye-surgery and I'm more than aware that it is free of cost ! How do you know that things are " safer and better " at the Sawan Singh Charitable Hospital ? Do you know someone who has had one surgery at the eye-camp and then another at the Sawan Singh Charitable Hospital ?

 

The eye-camps were as safe or as unsafe as the procedures being performed at the Sawan Singh Charitable Hospital. So, when RSSB cuts off a large scale charitable activity, cult members like you begin to think that it was unsafe ? Aa ha. With the kind of money that RSSB has and Gurinder has personally, there should have been five, well organized eye camps for the poor. Charan pulled it off successfully for years, and now with all the healthcare developments in India and the Guru's extended family in the healthcare business ( Fortis ) instead of stepping up the ante, Gurinder decided to shut it down.

 

Now, if you can give your opinion on the following three questions, this discussion may be worth pursuing... 01. What do you think about Gurinder's Religare involvement ? 02. Why is Gurinder so interested in swelling the RSSB asset corpus ? 03. Why does Gurinder scorn upon charity, when RSSB money-boxes continue to collect pennies from the poor ? I'd appreciate a logical answer, even if it comes from an RS injected perspective. Just don't quote some random prose from Nanak and interpret it ! That would be quite lame indeed. You've already said that I will " come back " as a worm or a snake, so I've had enough dogma... :)

 

Tara said:

Nietzsche, this comment has turned out rather essay-ish, enjoy !

 

RSSB Land Encroachment: The article you have posted clearly points out that RSSB had "encroached" upon the land in Mohali. It states:"RSSB had first come up with the land-exchange offer on September 13, 2007 and met Punjab Chief Minister Parkash Singh Badal."

 

Gurinder is very well connected with politicians in Punjab, especially those from the current ruling party. It makes sense as most "deras" or Living Guru out-posts in Punjab have huge followings (RSSB being the largest) and these devotees are the vote banks for political parties. Political visits into the RSSB Dera at Beas are a common sight before local and national elections. The Guru-Politician relationship is a mutually benefiting alliance, they need each other - the politician needs votes and in return RSSB can swing a land-deal in its favor.

 

(I would like to add that most Satsangis are in denial about RSSB's land encroachments and they will simply dismiss media reports as "lies" which goes to show how close-minded RS community members are. Time and again reports of illegal encroachments / land-dealings crop up with reference to RSSB and I have found the information correct on all occasions.)

Familial Ties / Religare: Gurinder is Charan's nephew (his sister's son) and back in the day, Charan had nothing to do with Dr. Parminder Singh's (his son-in-law) fortunes. Nimmie (Charan's daughter) had a rather turbulent relationship with her husband (Dr. Parminder Singh) and Charan was often involved in resolving their marital issues. Towards the end Nimmie and Parminder were living separately.

In Charan's guru-days, Gurinder was just another member of the extended family. The Grewal's (Charan's family) and the Dhillon's (Gurinder's family) were not very close, nor were Gurinder and Nimmie (cousins). But, Charan was always very fond of Gurinder, who was (at that time) a simple man from a modest financial background, dedicated to his Guru Uncle.

Gurinder was working at the Hyatt Regency, New Delhi (as an Assistant Food & Beverage Manager there) and his career wasn't exactly going places. It was Charan who lined up a job for him with the Bilani's in Spain and Gurinder would scour China / HK and other Asian countries for watch parts. From a job in a hotel to a billionaire businessman? Like they say, you've come a long way baby... :)

Dr. Parminder Singh was an industry captain and a visionary exemplar. A lot changed after his demise in 1999. His sons (Malvinder and Shivinder) were very young and inexperienced at the time, and Ranbaxy was being run by a group of professionals headed by D.S Brar (then MD & CEO, a non-family member) who was instrumental (along with Dr. Singh) in transforming Ranbaxy from a small Indian pharmaceutical company into a research-based global pharmaceutical major.

The disagreements over Ranbaxy's international expansion strategy between Brar and the family surfaced in 2002 and Brar exited before the end of his term, leaving what happened behind the boardroom doors a mystery. An analyst, commenting on the Ranbaxy succession planning issue, said - "The question, however, uppermost in most people's mind is: (that) does the decision reflect a tussle between the promoter and professional management in which the promoter eventually had his way." Initially,

Gurinder was just playing an advisory role to the Singh Brothers. Soon, that "advisory role" turned into a full-time consultancy of sorts and it was soon heard that Malvinder & Shivinder "don't make a move" without HIS advise.

That "HIS" was Gurinder - a backstage operator in Ranbaxy's succession that led to Malvinder quickly taking up the post of MD & CEO in what was once a professionally run company. In the months that followed, Gurinder and the Singh Brothers became inseparable when it came to taking business decisions. Then in December 2005, Gurinder announced to his family and close friends that he will not be giving business advise to any one after the turn of the year!

 

Who knows, maybe the Singh brother's thought of "including" him in some way and it was around that time Fortis was launched as a financial services company, which was then re-named Religare... (I can bet this name was Gurinder's pick, the definition of Religare is mentioned somewhere on the RSSB website in an essay with reference to religion and spirituality.)

 

Gurinder is very shrewd, it would take a very smart person to do what he is doing. Keeping everyone's faith while making a great deal of money is not something that all of us can pull off. Of course, he has an added advantage of playing "God" so he gets away unquestioned and unscrutinized. I doubt if Dr. Parminder Singh would have approved of any of this.

 

Charan Singh (Parminder's father-in-law) was not his business advisor! It is common knowledge that Ranbaxy and RSSB were separate entities during Charan's tenure - one was into the pharma business while the other was into the God business... In fact, Charan had his hands full with the politics within the Dera and wholly discouraged any kind of business association with himself or RSSB trust.

If you take a look into the Ranbaxy archives, there is no trace of Gurinder or any of his immediate family members being associated to Ranbaxy or to Dr. Parminder Singh and Nimmie Singh in any way - through employment, through shareholding, through inheritance.

The fact that one of Charan's two sons is working in Fortis today (you can confirm this on the Fortis website, his name is Jasbir Grewal aka Cuckoo) and has no shareholding in either Religare or Fortis clearly shows that Charan did not take advantage of his familial relationships, else shouldn't his son be richer than his nephew ( Gurinder ) today? I would also like to add here that Gurinder and his sons are the only family members who are shareholders in the Singh brothers' businesses. It is not like there is a consortium of familial relations managing these companies.

Relatives are employed, but share-holding has been reserved only for the Guru and his sons. I can tell you for certain that no uncle or aunt of Gurinder had gifted him the initial capital (millions of dollars) to invest in Religare. Gurinder comes from a humble past, and for those who think that he has hectares "farmland" it may be good to know a fact - Gurinder and his immediate family are not agricultural industrialists of Punjab. A few acres of wheat and mustard produce cannot buy pre-issued shares in a global financial services company!

If you read the Religare prospectus, the shares were transferred to his sons at a pre-issue price of INR 10 before the IPO was launched. Like I said in my earlier comment, I see no reason for the Singh Brothers to part with the shareholding if there wasn't something in it for them.

 

That is why, IMO, the RSSB trust-funds cross-holdings with Religare is not such a smokin' conspiracy theory after all. I do not think that Gurinder and his family are directly siphoning out money from the RSSB trust. However, there is an institution in place (Religare) which manages the RSSB trust-funds, and in turn helps the Guru and his family profiteer from it. It is a legal v/s moral issue and if you look at this from a pure " Sant Mat " perspective, all of it looks terribly wrong!

This is not your average Wall Street banker we're discussing, this is GIHF - the Perfect Living Master, the Param Sant Sat Guru of Kalyug. The plethora of RS teachings now looks like a bigger pile of BS ! What ever happened to " Honest Living " I wonder... Gurinder's younger son - Gurkirat Singh Dhillon is the youngest billionaire on the Indian Billionaires List. The children of other billionaires are the inheritors of business legacies or are first-generation entrepreneurs - their success stories are a Google search away.

 

Gurinder's older son lives in a posh apartment in Mayfair, London. Has he earned it, or is it a by-product of having a Guru-dad ? My concern is for the poor villager who takes out his INR 10 to put into the RSSB money-box. That INR 10 could also buy him another meal. Something to think about - specially when salvation does not seem to be happening.

 

Well, I don't think we'll find Gurinder absconding one day, my guess is that he may head out in an autonomous direction (the signs are already there) and may even renunciate his leadership and Guru-status in the years to come. This may be a long shot, but like all things RSSB - it will be well orchestrated and the Sangat will be satisfied.

 

Tara said:

SKat, Please read http://business.in.com/printcontent/932 and that should put the real facts in line. If Ranbaxy was all that cash rich, why did they sell out ? So, they sold the golden goose for ten thousand golden eggs ? Really ? Was it the current trend of intensifying generic competition and increased government regulation that got to them ?

It is common knowledge that Ranbaxy became debt-free after the deal and got $1 billion in cash to pursue inorganic growth opportunities more aggressively. It is also common knowledge that Parminder Singh would have wholly disapproved of Malvinder's business approach. Back in the day, Ranbaxy had one of the renowned R&D departments in the pharmaceutical sector. Many patents on drugs were about to expire industry wide, which would have allowed other pharma companies to innovate and produce products at lower costs.

The Daiichi-Ranbaxy deal was valued at 4.3 times sales and 21 times EBITDA on historical earnings. Malvinder wouldn't have got a better catch than Daiichi. He got the Japanese - hook, line and sinker ! And, the Parkway Hospital in-and-out deal was the only option as a bidding war with Khazanah would have bled them. Nothing wrong with a " good deal " though Corporate India did expect the Singh brothers to resist ! Instead, Malvinder came back with all bags packed and a neat pile of money.

From your comment it seems likely that you probably know that RSSB trust funds were ( and continue to be diverted ) to Religare. Do you see another reason for the Guru's two sons being shareholders ? What was Gurinder's financial status prior to becoming the Guru ? Of course, you don't have to answer this, but I'm sure that if you know the Head of Treasury and Head of Finance at Religare, you know the truth.

 

And, in this case, they more than hint about the Guru's involvement. It is all very risky, and you probably also know that that if this is publicly proved, it may spell disaster for the RSSB cult. By the way ( as tAo well noted ) we at the Church of the Churchless had nothing to do with the near-collapse of the global banking system ! Gurinder is a bigger fraud than all those bankers combined and he hails from our land. Besides, how different are the business practices of Mukesh Ambani, Malvinder Singh and co. in this country for you to be pulling out a fair-play card ?

 

Tara said:

A delayed response by ( maybe ) another " vituperative scorned lover " but, regardless, I do believe I have a reason to write what I write here... Bayarearetrofit says - Members of this blog forget that Gurinder has built numerous charitable hospitals where the public can get medical care free of charge. Reply - Which " numerous " hospitals are you referring to ?

The Sawan Singh Charitable Hospital was built by Charan Singh, which presently is in a serious need of a medical and infrastructural refurbishment. Which hospital has Gurinder built ? He shut down the Dera hospital and Charan's annual eye-camp. What are you talking about ?

On the other hand, the Singh Brothers ( Malvinder & Shivinder ) can use their pocket change to upgrade the Sawan Singh Charitable Hospital. After all, (1) they are the promoters of Fortis - one of the largest healthcare operators in India (2) the hospital was an integral part of their grandfather's charitable legacy (3) they are supposed to give one-tenth of their income to charity, as stated in the RS doctrine.

With the kind of money that Gurinder and his relatives have, their charitable endeavors are a real pittance. Bayarearetrofit says - After the earthquake in Sri Lanka, the Dera sent thousands of sevadars and money to build schools. He even went there to supervise the operation and refused photo ops.

Reply - About two months ago, a devastating flood hit the region of Ladakh leaving thousands of people homeless and with a dire need of the essentials - food, medicines and warm clothing. National NGO's, disaster management groups and international agencies set up relief operations immediately. Beas nodded and the nearest local wing of RSSB pitched their tents. Like an automated program, representatives took up positions and volunteers lined up - the RSSB relief camp was up and going. They served tea and biscuits, gave temporary shelter and basic medical care to a fairly large group of flood victims.

A couple of weeks later, a whisper went around - Babaji is coming ! Things went into overdrive. The fervor reached fever pitch when Gurinder's private charter touched down at the Leh airport. The media was close at hand. Gurinder marched to the RSSB shelter and talked to some of the flood victims. He had tea, then made a few suggestions to the RSSB representatives.

 

( An RS entourage was busy keeping the shutterbugs at bay, while another one made sure that no one " came too close " to Gurinder. Several local policemen and the Guru's personal security were deployed for his safety and the smooth run of the planned itinerary. )

 

Later he was whisked away in a convoy. The RS followers were left charged and darshan-soaked. Some started to weep with joy, others got into a tiered huddle and gazed unblinkingly at the leaving car with folded hands, a few ran behind the vehicle... For a moment you seem to forget that this is a relief camp in Ladakh. It kind of irks me when " Seva " takes on a religious flavor like this. The grief stricken face of a mountain villager does not seem to stir the souls of many, but the presence of an alleged GIHF brings out a torment of emotions amongst the RS following.

Also, IMO, like politicians visits, GIHF visits are actually a hindrance for any kind of serious relief work. Well, it is a good thing to gather a hundred people for a nobel cause that serves humanity, but how much of this should be credited to Gurinder ? I mean, it would be interesting to know how much Gurinder has given from his own personal wealth to the RSSB shelter or to the flood victims in Ladakh.

The RSSB trust funds are the collective contributions from the Sangat, so if the trust funds are used, it is the Sangat's benevolence. People tend to attribute too much to the Guru, how much of a role does he play in all of this besides being the poster-boy in who's name they erect the tent ? Does he lead by example by braving the chill and helping out with the chores ? He doesn't !

A bunch of brave hearts who tirelessly serve their fellowmen in distress are honorable people, while their feudal Master comes along and just laps it all up... Temporary charitable blips on the RSSB map do not substitute for a full-time humanitarian initiative - one that RSSB can easily afford. The eye-camp was a huge expense and an organizational task, it is now obvious that Gurinder prefers occasional activities. These flashes of compassion do not negate his fallacy, greed for land and corporate ambitions.

Besides, the RSSB management will ensure that they get the required mileage from this activity to maintain their charitable status with the taxmen, while countrywide, followers will drop their jaws in awe at the humility and love expressed by their Guru on this trip... Bayarearetrofit says - He travels everywhere trying meeting with his disciples at great personal discomfort. Reply - Did you hear that the RSSB Guru traveled by train amidst the hymn-singing Sangat in Punjab ? That was Sawan.

Gurinder travels only private jet within India. Overseas, it is first class or private charter again. A pristine white elevator ( Schindler ) is installed at the Beas residence that takes Gurinder from level 0 to level 1. The same elevator is installed at his sprawling new residence in Delhi, which is on the outskirts of the Chattarpur area, very close to the main Satsang grounds. This farmhouse has been named " Basera " translated as " The Abode " and is a three-acre property.

Abroad, Gurinder stays at well-maintained RSSB estates or in the best hotels. In India, his private cooks travel with him on the Satsang tour. He has staff that serves him round-the-clock in every part of the world he visits. Gurinder enjoys all the mod-cons of the high-life. The air conditioning is always kept at a cool 18 to 20 degrees for him. I could go on...

 

Well, how really discomforting is any of the above ? Bayarearetrofit says - His staff commented that he did not sleep under the same roof more than three days in a row for over 8 months while on tour, which is most of the time. Reply - He has to work hard for the donations which tend to be on an upswing when he is visiting. But he is not " on-tour " most of the time. Like all of us, Gurinder has his fair share of " time-off " from the official RSSB calendar.

 

There is a summer house in Simla ( a hill station in India in the Himanchal region ) where he takes an annual break in the company of friends and family. ( A couple of years ago starlet Kareena Kapoor and her RS boyfriend Shahid had been invited to the Simla residence. ) The regular holidays are detours from U.K. and Spain and a number of trips to Hong Kong where he has other business interests.

Bayarearetrofit says - He recently helped write and publish a book on misogynous practices in India, such as physical and emotional abuse, enslavement, etc. The book is called something like "Rise Up Women" and is meant to provide abused women resources to get out of abusive relationships.

Reply - A book that expresses an ideology and exposes the plight of women is not the same as a book that catalogues a mission's role and achievement in that sphere. We can all preach a ton of stuff, and that is exactly what Gurinder does - talk. But what is he actually doing about it ? Nothing.

Gurinder is also majorly encouraging organ donation. Has he contributed in any way, or is RSSB affiliated to any of the agencies that are finding solutions to the ground-water contamination issues that are the root cause of organ damage in Punjab ? No. Does he / RSSB facilitate organ transplant and take responsibility ? No. Does he visit donors and recipients ? No. Does he / RSSB give even partial monetary support ? No. So all his apparent " concerns " then are just his personal PR and strategic marketing campaigns for the RSSB mission, nothing else. A significant abusive relationship is the Guru-disciple relationship within RSSB but that would be the subject of another comment.

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noiZ... Hi, I meant to reply to you earlier, I just got lost somewhere between multiple windows on my Mac ! I'm happy to learn that you enjoy the comments I post. Well, mine is a long story, a sad one - debunking a belief system that I was brought up with was very painful experience. I come from a fourth generation of RS believers, though we're Sikh by descent. Most of my family and our relatives are now on the fringes of the RS faith.

I was recommended by a therapist in London to blog about my thoughts, as discussions about RSSB are discouraged within RS social circles. I've not considered cataloging my views and experiences. Besides, I live in India most of the time so RSSB may want to " deal " with me in a way they think is appropriate. I find blogging therapeutic ( from my standpoint ) and entertaining. I also feel that it helps me cope in the real world... :)

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Reply to Nobody : Part 1 Nobody says - " More than 80% of the people who post are from the US. " " This should be clear to the reader. " Maybe. But ( please check with Brian ) there are probably a larger number who tune in just to read ( the RSSB related comments ) from Mumbai and New Delhi in India. My comment above was directed at one of my ( ex ) RS group's I met at a social gathering. They were discussing this blog. How often does a blog become the only topic of conversation for thirty people and keeps them animated for over three hours ?

 

Okay. First things first. I think you're rather confused about the true tenets of Sant Mat. I'm going to step in to make a few corrections : Nobody says - " I am happy that, apparently, my guru is a millionaire... "

 

Reply --- He also sells a book titled " Honest Living " and I doubt if you have read that. Initiates are expected to overcome the evils of ( lobh and moh ) greed and attachment. Is he living by the principles that he preaches ? If Gurinder has a clear road-map to his millions, there should be transparency and disclosure. And, is he giving 1/10th of his Religare earnings to charity as prescribed by the theology ?

 

I'm not unhappy that he is a millionaire, I'm just surprised that he became a millionaire after he became the Guru. Nobody says - " He's got naam and he's got cash... " Reply --- This world ( pinda ) is an illusion ( maya ) and followers are instructed to refrain from any extremity that may hinder spiritual progress. The Perfect Living Master is projected as an ascetic figure.

 

From an RS perspective, the Guru is above materialism and is sole purpose to live on this earth amongst us mortals is to help us break free from the cycle of ( chaurasi ) birth and death. He is a savior of souls. Where do corporate ambitions figure in all of this ? Nobody says - 

 

"And I hope the Sant Mat religion grows and grows and grows and grows and grows and I wish it takes over the whole wide world... " Reply --- Sant Mat is a spiritual philosophy, not a religion. It is considered to be a step above conventional religion and is the privilege of a select few only - the ' chosen ones ' who constitute 1/10th of the creation. So no, according to RSSB, it cannot ' take-over ' the world, their disclaimer would be a fallacy then.

 

Nobody says - " At least people will stop eating meat and killing each other... " Reply --- You're into organic food, right ? Its seems like you take your food habits very seriously, but don't mix vegetarianism with RS propaganda - there is no restriction on buying an ostrich-leather bag, but you cannot have pecorino. Ouch ! I've never tasted meat and I continue to be vegetarian, but what's wrong with eating meat if one desires to ?

 

I personally know a dozen " vegetarian crooks " in the RS community. I also personally know a salmon devouring gentleman who left 25000 USD ( when he went back to Chicago ) to an old Sikh driver who had served him for ten years. Being a good human and eating meat are not interrelated ! And, people are not ' killing each other ' in general. There are militant outfits in different parts of the world, but by and large this world is a good place, and mostly we're safe from harm.

 

Nobody says - " A guru or whatever you want to call him may even OH MY GOD have sex OMG have sweaty sex ? YES. " Reply --- No. The RS guru is supposed to embrace celibacy ( according to the dictates of the doctrine ) after he becomes the Param Sant Sat Guru. His wife sleeps in a separate room and becomes a ' dasi ' or a humble servitor to her husband. But, maybe the Guru's do get horny, who knows ? Sweaty sex - I doubt it ! Spiritual orgasms - maybe... :)

 

Nobody says - " He may even be polygamist and have many wives. " Reply --- Eh ! Seriously, where did you get that one from ? Its clearly outlined at the time of initiation that except for one's spouse, all members from the opposite sex must be looked upon as brothers / sisters. And, sex out of wedlock is strictly prohibited. Do you remember your vows ? Are you confusing RS with Islam ? Who initiated you ? Have you ever read an RS book ?

Nobody says - " His role as a guru is social... His role as a guru is spiritual... Both at the same time... and without a certain pattern that fits moral or ethical laws. " Reply --- Whoa ! Without a certain pattern that fits moral or ethical laws ? Are you kidding ? OMG, please read Philosophy of the Masters Vol. 1-5, Spiritual Letters and Quest for Light. The blokes at RSSB will be mighty unhappy when they read your interpretation of Sant Mat.

 

Tara said:

Juan, Like I said, that is what Gurinder told me ! What if he was in another city in India or Europe or anywhere else - I don't know where he was. But, I'm certain of what he told me, and it was about a ' surprising ' phone call that he received which told him that he had been appointed as the new Guru.

Like ' miracles ' and other such stuff, I always noticed how things were sensationalized. I don't mean this in a gossipy way, but my personal experiences have led me to believe that there really are not two but many versions of what actually happens / happened. Then, there's another dimension to it - the Master works in mysterious ways. ( Well, I don't buy that one anymore. ) Thanks for your version though !

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Some thoughts come to mind in what otherwise would have been an uncomplicated reply to a comment posted by Nietzsche | August 12, 2010 at 04:02 AM. I touch upon ( particularly ) the mindset of the upper-class of Indian RS followers, followed by my take on promoting Shabad Yoga in the West.

This comment goes out to those Indian RS-followers who regularly visit this blog, but are too chicken to leave a comment of their own as they selectively filter and obey, according to convenience, the ' rules ' from Beas. You guys, you know who you are and its quite amusing to hear you yap on about this site socially, over red-bulls and virgin mojitos. ( Cheers ! )

I picked up the Mint Lounge a day before Independence Day and would like to quote parts of the weekend edition that are relevant to this discussion and for the benefit of the RS social group I'm referring to : " Article 19/1/A from the Indian Constitution - It ensures you are free to express yourself, but within ' reasonable restrictions ' so how free does that make us ?

The fun of old fashioned rail and rant is rare these days. It does not involve mouse-click nirvana. It involves risk for all involved - the editor, the publisher or other equivalent mediator who provides the medium; the medium itself; and of course, the writer, thinker or rabble-rouser. The time for reaction is longer and the ripple effect, wider. On Twitter and Facebook as banal as they are addictive and liberating, opinions flash, scream and fade.

We celebrate the old and new kinds of free speech. It's a freedom, the lack of which we remember every other day. Our right to freedom of expression in the Constitution has ' reasonable restrictions ' - the ' reasonable ' often bordering on the bizarre - something irks somebody all the time. If you laugh at Indianness, you are booed. If you have a mind, you are stupid and deserve to be called names. Indians tolerate arguments and opinions as long as they're about cricket, Bollywood or a few other things such as ' chai ' and mangoes.

Laws protecting free speech are an apology. Discussion about religion is out of bounds... One of the facts that emerges is the Indian tendency to self-censor. I am convinced that we speak less than what the law allows us to. A few bear the brunt of restricting laws and outdated ideologues. Are we a republic of silence ? " When I read this introduction, I thought to myself... " Freedom of expression is one thing, the complete lack of opinion - quite another. "

I was reminded of some RS initiates, most of whom don't even have an opinion that stretches beyond the cliched dogma they begin to parrot every time someone raises a valid point that questions Gurinder's recent behavior. To what degree can people become consenting puppets to a Guru who they know and agree is in the wrong never ceases to amaze me. Here is what I have to say to them - Your basic faculty of discerning right from wrong seems to have fallen through a crack in the floorboards.

If you do not object to the existence of an elitist, fraudulent Guru then the objection to the institution ( RSSB ) is superficial and the consequences are inevitable - Religare, a tightly sealed RS trust, the shutdown of charities, the emergence of RS fanaticism... The debate should be at a much more fundamental level - about what the existence of such a patriarchal institution means and not merely about who suffers at the hands of them and the resulting chaos that stems from it.

It may also be a better idea to quit debating Gurinder's Religare involvement if you cannot step on to an open forum and present your views. Stop inquiring and gossiping in hushed whispers and step out of the closet if you must, you enjoy the stuff that I post anyway ! Tell me what you think, because you are indulging in it, just offline. Damn, your stories had me rolling my eyes in disbelief...

One of you said " If you pick up the Dera and place it in Europe or America, its feudalistic hierarchy will invite the attention of human rights activists ! " So, you continue to believe in the " philosophy " maybe ? You're having a spiritual hang-over from your grandparents' Sant Mat days ? I understand that, I felt the same way for a long time...

At first, I discounted my feelings as just another source of fear, uncertainty, and doubt, but having gone past my initial apprehension of being wrong, I'm going to say that it was at the very least quite thought-stimulating. It took me over a year and a half to discover and discard all my conditioning. I knew it would not be easy... ( This part relates to Nietzsche's comment. Bringing Shabad Yoga to the West. )

RS originated and is headquartered in India, so until people from this side of the world stand up and have an opinion, RSSB will continue to be a profitable export to the West and will thrive in India by silently raking in money from the multitudes of uneducated, gullible villagers that it brainwashes in its fold. Overseas, RSSB projects a much mellower, " liberal " image and blends into the cultural ethos of the region.

 

Across the world, believers are kind, well-meaning people who have been meticulously led astray. So as long as us, educated Indians, continue to suck up to GS and his type, these pastors will incessantly feed off God's people. Freedom of mind is needed to reduce harms caused by long term ( cult ) mind control, and the first step towards that freedom is to have an opinion and " question " what you think is questionable.

 

Well, ( back to my ) lovely ladies and blessed gentlemen from the round table - Let's stop being hypocritical. Do you really wake up at 4am to meditate ? I don't think so. Most of your " social conversations " indirectly propagate vegetarianism while you insistingly pass around the pork sui mai, then turn around and ask for a quick change of plate if someone accidentally picks up a mushroom with their " contaminated " fork. How terribly crazy is that ?

 

You're seriously confused and rely too heavily on your eggless cakes as an indictor of spiritual progress. Most of you have never returned a greeting to the office guard who holds the door for you every morning. Your kids flaunt a " I'm more special than you " attitude with other kids at school and are still spoon-fed by their nannies. Do you really give 1/10 of your earnings to charity ? When is the last time you gave a medical allowance to your driver or some chocolates for his kids ? Do you think that by just being " vegetarian " you've become virtuous and humane ?

 

So, the next time you attend an RS-Satsang and come back raving about all the wonderful things you heard, I suggest you take a look at your own lives and see how you stand with regard to social etiquette, love, compassion and sensitivity towards others; and how your " spiritual path " is helping you, if at all, with any of that. By your standards I am wicked, by my own - I think that I'm better off typing this for those who may be interested to read, and that includes all of you who tune in everyday to chuckle and agree in solitude.

 

F*** the " obedient " attitude and get real about your lives. You need to have a voice, even if that means you change your gender and hide behind a pseudo name. This is just a blog, but then again, it gives you the freedom and space to talk about the stuff that is pushed under the carpet in our RS social groups.

Didn't Gurinder tell people not to use hair color ? Who's obeyed that one ? All that being said, the good news is that your like is a shrinking lot and RSSB does not appeal to most people ( in India ) anymore. Stop being apologists, when you're really not. Why do you want me to be your voice when you have your own ? Think about it. With love to all who read this... :)

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Robert & Roger, Here is a summary of the succession. At the time of the announcement, Gurinder was in Spain. He received a phone call after Charan's passing that he had been chosen by his Master ( Charan ) to become the next Param Sant Sat Guru of RSSB. This came as a big surprise to most people ( friends & family ) who were close to Charan.

Some were expecting Dr. Parminder Singh, the son-in-law of Charan Singh to become the next Guru. ( Parminder was the husband of Nimmie Singh & father of the two Singh brothers - Malvinder & Shivinder who now are partners with Gurinder. ) I remember having a conversation with GS a few years ago and he himself told me about the " phone call " and what a surprise it was to him, though at that time ( as I believed he was a GIHF ) I thought he was just being humble.

Gurinder was just another member of the extended family and was not considered to be a Perfect Living Master ( PLM ) before he became the Guru ! He was not a " higher-up " in RSSB and was actually quite disconnected from the Dera politics and was leading a quiet life in Spain with his family. Gurinder's tenure started out on low-key beginnings. It was a long while before he gave his first Satsang and wore dark glasses for almost a year and a half. Initiation started much later. The brimming confidence that you see today is the result of a well orchestrated succession.

What I saw ( back then ) was a reluctant successor who was cautious about every move he made. What would you do if you suddenly became the head of a large spiritual sect and had everyone looking up to you for " grace & mercy " on one hand, and for all management related decisions on the other ? How would it feel to have Sevadars ( double your age ) standing in submission with folded hands, saying... " Baba Ji, hukum karo ! " ( translated as ) " What do you desire Master ? " I'm sure it was rather difficult for him in the initial years and maybe there were times he may have just wanted to run away from it all, and that's why IMO, he pursues his business interests on the side, as a break from the " Guru " thing.

 

Tara said:

S.Clarity, thank you for posting here. You've raised some very important questions, here is my reply - 01. So much for transparency ! That incident happened in Mumbai in 2009, at the RSSB's management's office. My friend was very keen that his fiancé visits Beas as he came from an RS family. The girl had read about the mission and attended the Mumbai Satsang. She concluded that there were large-scale donations coming in, that were collectively given by the poor. She decided to find out how the RSSB-trust allocated the funds collected.

They made an appointment with one of the senior RS reps and her first question was a query into the approximate figure that was donated over that weekend. They were immediately escorted out of the office by four RS reps and were told that they shouldn't attend Satsang if they have no faith in the Master. I also know of three similar incidents in the Dera.

Yes, simply asking about financial dealings of any kind are considered inappropriate. Any well-informed Satsangi will tell you that it is forbidden to question the RSSB management regarding any monetary issue.

02. No, the current Master has never offered to make a public disclosure. His Religare earnings, his personal expenses ( and who bears them ), the net worth of the RSSB-trust ( all donations & assets ) and the transactions of the trust - all remain a big mystery. Individual queries are silently quashed. Unfortunately, no Sangat in any region has jointly made an inquiry into the RSSB-trust funds. Gurinder tells people that his son is working " for " the Religare London office, as if his son is an employee !

Unless one knows, Gurinder pretends that he and his family have nothing to do with Religare and that he's just a servant of the Sangat. Sunil Godhwani is an RS initiate and the CMD of the Religare Group. He is also the Guru's personal treasurer, trusted confidant and right-hand man.

03. Yes, this is correct. The Beas farmland issue is a case in point where RSSB has illegally encroached upon land that is owned by farmers and has diverted the river course to drive them out of their dwellings. RSSB has a number of land related lawsuits pending and Gurinder uses his political contacts to work things in his favor.

Announcements were made at the Delhi Satsang three years ago, urging fellow Satsangi's not buy land around the Bhati Mines area which encloses the largest RSSB center in Delhi. It was only later that people realized that RSSB wanted to buy that land, and the reason they discouraged followers to buy it was because it would have been rather difficult for RSSB to " throw out / buy out " a Satsangi as opposed to a non-believer.

On another occasion RSSB made sure that a subway line was diverted in Delhi and had thousands of followers sign a mass petition and stage a rally in protest. Then there is that 108 million USD land-deal in Ahmedabad and there is no evidence, as yet, about where those funds are. The fact remains that RSSB's real-estate assets are the largest amongst spiritual missions, and RSSB does minimal charity - just enough to maintain the trust's status as a non-profit spiritual organization.

04. Yes, the source ( www.watchoutinvestors.com ) has given accurate information and this website is owned by the Investor Education and Protection Fund which is a part of the Ministry of Corporate Affairs, Government of India. I do not know of any other SEBI disclosed violations. It seems like most of the questionable activities are done between the RSSB-trust and Religare before the " official documents " hit the floor.

The RSSB-trust is an autonomous body and is closed to external auditing. Religare's auditors are PWC's Indian affiliate who are famous for their involvement in the Satyam scandal in recent years. http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=newsarchive&sid=ar6hB_Hr347E

05. Interesting question. If you look at Page-94 of the Religare Prospectus you will find a board member and initiate named Mr. Deepak Ramchand Sabnani who has the foreign directorship of the ( RSSB ) Science of the Soul Study Centre International Limited which is an RSSB registered charity. What is a non-profit RSSB subsidiary doing on the corporate prospectus of Religare ? This is another link that proves that Religare board members who are initiates have also been given important roles within RSSB. I have learnt that business is preferentially given to the Guru's " inner circle " members who are also his close friends. http://www.sebi.gov.in/dp/reldraft.pdf http://www.scienceofthesoul.org

06. There is no concrete proof of the RSSB-trust funding Religare at the time of its inception. However, some facts to consider are - A. The only people on the Indian billionaires list who do not have a cataloged history of family business are Gurpreet and Gurkirat, the Guru's two sons.

( The Singh brothers cannot be considered " family " in this regard as they " got into business " with Gurinder only in 2006, prior to which Gurinder had nothing to do with Ranbaxy and had no business of his own. ) B. There is no road-map to indicate how the Guru and his sons became ( now the largest ) shareholders of a two billion dollar company... ( ?? ) C. Why were shares transferred at a pre-issue price to Gurpreet and Gurkirat only ? Why is Gurpreet nowhere to be seen on the Religare India website ? Why is he tucked away in London ? Why has he never been interviewed ?

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Brian, you've touched upon something interesting in this post. I was talking to a fringe-Satsangi the other day, and we both agreed that your devotion to RS Sant Mat was exemplary and you were probably what RSSB would call a ' perfect devotee ' back in the day.

Which brought me to a mini-conclusion : we have examples of some ' perfect ' devotees ( and I use this word kind of loosely as according to the RS doctrine we're imperfect ) so people like you and my father were / are what I can safely call ' prototypes ' of perfect RS devotees. I've seen my father meditate at 4am and your wife has seen you do the same and volunteer for a ' night-seva ' duty outside the Guru's residence.

Our near and dear ones know some facts about us. Well, what do we know about the Guru ? Very little, IMO. Okay, Gurinder may not be willing to perform miracles or give us descriptive details of supreme regions, but surely, on the ' human ' side of things, as he is God In HUMAN Form, it may be good to let devotees in on some ' demonstrable ' human activities. Like, for starters, is he giving 1/10th of his earnings from Religare into charity as prescribed by the teachings ? It seems like the ' this-is-how-you-do-it ' demo is missing on all levels.

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This comment is a reply to the sender of the email that Brian has posted above - July 20, 2010 at 8:00pm. Sender, please excuse me if at any point you find my tone offensive. SENDER says - In your post ' RSSB's ties to Religare mix money and spirituality... ' what proof do you have that the RSSB Guru ( Baba Ji ) literally runs the company ? That he makes all the important decisions and spends a considerable amount of time driving the business ? And if he is making millions for his family and kids, is that such a big crime ? In America we do that, we call it capitalism.

 

Reply - I hope you know that the Guru and his family are the largest shareholders of the company : Religare. The business model was conceived by Gurinder, and the Singh brothers are just a front-face of the company. In the second quarter of 2009, some members of the Religare top-brass understood that ' orders ' were coming not from the CEO but from a ' higher source ' and that the CEO was nothing but a pawn in the hands of a ' Guru ' who was taking all the decisions - but was actually incognito.

 

They soon discovered that a shareholder by the name of ' Gurpreet Dhillon ' who was tucked away in the London office was actually the son of the leader of a large spiritual sect. A little more inquiry lead to further details that uncovered Gurinder Singh Dhillon of RSSB as the founder and ' hidden ' head-honcho of Religare. ( How the leader of a spiritual sect managed to set up and drive a billion dollar company is another issue, one that I'm not going to talk about at the moment. )

 

Now, lets talk about Charlie's Angels. The CEO of Religare Enterprises Ltd. is an initiate named Mr. Sunil Godhwani - the personal treasurer and right-hand man of the Guru. He is also the Guru's long-time friend. Closed-door meetings are often held at Mr. Sunil Godhwani's farmhouse in New Delhi and the Guru is constantly in touch with him on the phone when they're apart. ( Even the chauffeurs know about this ! )

 

Mr. Godhwani's residence is the Guru's home for all ' unofficial ' visits into the capital. How do I know this ? A close family has a relative who works for Religare, and I'm good friends with people who are well connected with the ' inner circle ' members. This information has also been confirmed by a dozen well known people from the Indian financial sector.

 

You're talking about capitalism ? This is not capitalism, this is a big guerilla coup ! Usually, there's always something shady when someone is hiding something, and your ' Baba Ji ' clearly has a lot to hide. Otherwise, why hasn't he come out in the open ? Why is this something that needs to be rationalized ?

 

SENDER says - You've heard of Rev. Joel Osteen, I'm sure, http://www.joelosteen.com or maybe seen his weekly TV programs. He is a Christian minister, and spiritual leader from Houston, Texas. I'm sure he's very savvy when it comes to business and making money, and there's no doubt in my mind that he's a multimillionaire. I'm sure his kids are millionaires too, thanks to Joel. His books have been on the NY Times best selling author list - many times. He's rolling in money !

 

Reply - I doubt if Joel's bestsellers would be describing him as a GIHF and he probably not handing out ' rennet free cheese ' lists to his faithful.

 

SENDER says - My question to you is this - Does it spiritually matter that Joel Osteen is making big money for his family and kids and still running a big Church like Lakewood ? I'm sure he has lots of insider trading tips from his Texan buddies and Christian associates too. That's called networking, and we all do it.

 

Reply - Does it spiritually matter... ? Sorry, but I think your idea of morality can do with some kindergarden basics, seems like you missed ' ethics ' class in school.

 

SENDER says - Yet, when an eastern Master like Baba Ji does the same thing, we are quick to blast him and criticize him. We think that the eastern Guru should be in sandals, simple, poor, and his family should be poor too. Why the double standards ?

 

Reply - I do not want my spiritual Master to be poor, but I think I'd expect him to practice what he preaches. Gurinder Singh's business operations are a clear departure from the teachings of RS Sant Mat. I think your ' Baba Ji ' is the one who has double standards - he talks about detachment, but silently runs a billion dollar company.

 

SENDER says - Anyhow, I'm sure Baba Ji and his family are giving lots of money to help run the Dera, and all the centers he has around the world. Its not cheap to run these places. I know that I stayed at the Dera for a month once and didn't have to pay a dime for the room and board.

 

Reply - That is totally incorrect. Dera is a self-sustaining economy which is run by the money that comes from donations by the Sangat and all operations are carried out by volunteers. RSSB centers ( in India and around the world ) are built and maintained by volunteers, so it is rather cheap to ' run ' these places. It is all monetary or physical ' Seva ' by the Sangat in every way, but it is the RSSB trust that owns these properties. RSSB has cut back on all charitable activities, so it is not likely that the Guru's family are giving anything at all !

 

You didn't pay a dime for the boarding & lodging at the Dera... Well, that was Charan Singh's idea, thank him for that. I wonder what Gurinder would have done ! SENDER says - Anyhow, waiting to hear from you. Thanks. Reply - Would you like to have a dialogue via private email ? Any more questions ? It may be a good idea to step out of your cowardice and post your thoughts on the blog, trust me, you'll not have killed a holy cow.

------------------

 

Nietzsche, IMO, the RS philosophy is designed to confuse. It is contradictory and anti-life. It requires a total shutdown of reason, logic and intuition. Sant Mat aside, there has been a huge shift in the values and ideology that defined the RS sect in the days of Charan. I was brought up with the RS belief system, so it was twice as difficult for me to let go of it !

 

It is a long story Nietzsche... Lets just say that there came a point where I found myself totally confused. I stopped trusting myself and my instincts. I was being pulled in two opposite directions - one that was telling me to listen to my inner voice that said that RS was a big farce, and the other which was constantly nudging me back to my conditioned roots and my little ' RS world ' that came with it.

 

As a series of events unfolded at the end of last year, I decided to get out of the box. It was a liberating experience, I was relieved when I came face to face with my true feelings. I guess I was tired of the hypocrisies and lack of compassion that I often witnessed.

 

I've had many dreams of Sawan and Charan, even Gurinder. Those were stemming from the love and admiration that I had for them. Now I have dreams of fluorescent oceans and talking fish - I'm planning on building an eco-friendly holiday home in Goa. I think we often underestimate the power of imagination. My life is as miracle-full or as miracle-empty as it was when I was on the RS path. Actually, everything is just great ! However, the absence of fear and guilt has given me a renewed sense of freedom.

------------------

 

Nietzsche, The whole idea of being ' humble ' in RSSB is basically to restrict credit or praise where it is due. On the other hand, Gurinder devours the attention and adoration that is bestowed on him by the Sangat. Its something like a beehive - where Gurinder is the queen-bee and the rest are worker-bees. ( Actually, there are all sorts of bees in the higher ranks as well... )

 

I've had a number of conversations with Gurinder and he's clearly enjoying his power and position. He seems to have a condescending attitude towards the less privileged and rarely meets followers from the poorer sections of the Sangat. I've seen his personal security rudely push an elderly man just because he was standing close to a waiting Mercedes that was parked for him.

 

If it wasn't for the legacy that Charan left, Gurinder wouldn't have survived a day of his Gurudom. Charan could have left the ' gaddi ' to a goose and the RS following would believe that that the goose was now the new GIG ( goose ) F.

 

Unfortunately, the education level of the majority of the Sangat is so low that they buy into the RS BS. For the rural villagers, a promise of salvation is like rain on a hot day - they don't want to come back to their life of misery and would do anything to improve their present condition : donate their pennies, do physical Seva, queue up for long hours to catch a glimpse of the Guru etc.

 

That's exactly where cult control tactics come in and RSSB takes full advantage of the naivety and innocence of these people. Its important to note that RSSB never stresses on the importance of education. They want the Sangat to remain backward, uneducated and involved in Seva - their survival and growth depends on it. 

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satsangi, I'm sorry to learn that my comments have upset you, my apologies. However, maybe there are some opinions that you identify with and maybe they are in conflict with your belief system. FYI dude, I live in India too. ( My family members have been RS's through generations, though we are Sikhs by descent. )

 

The farmland and diversion of the river-bank issue has been going on for over a decade, which I closely followed even before I was initiated. So, its not like I'm making assumptions. Don't talk about Gurinder not wanting to show-off or being secretive about his charity.

 

RSSB has listed every small thing that they have done in the past ( there are about six or seven mid-size projects that you can read about on their website ) and sadly there is not much more that they have done for humanity or the poorer amongst their Sangat. I do not see how million-dollar investments in properties abroad will help the Sangat, when those funds can be used for basic healthcare and education for the rural Sangat's families and children.

 

What do you think ? And, what's the obsession with fancy cars ? I thought that a ' Perfect Master ' would be above the material world. About the Shabads... I am referring to the Shabads that have been banned from internal usage within the RSSB Satsangs, so thanks for educating me about their external misuse ! ( I had a good laugh at you naivety... ) Here is the list, please note that some of them were Charan's favorites - Aad Niranjan Prabh Nirankara - Guru Arjun Dev Ji Namey He Tey Sabhu Kichhu Hoa - Guru Amar Das Ji Dil Ka Hujra Saaf Kar- Tulsi Sahib Har Ki Pooja Dulambh Hai Santo - Guru Amar Das Ji Jag Main Ghor Andhera Bhari - Soami Ji Dhun Sun Kar Man Samjhayee - Soami Ji Do go and check with RS representatives in Mumbai and Delhi to confirm the same.

 

Of course you'll find a way to rationalize and justify this, but I still suggest you to go ahead and find out things for yourself. I do not subscribe to rumors, everything that I have written on this blog is either my own experience and opinion, or has come from a dependable source - like people who are high rankers in the RS community. Finally, like tAo said, you don't know anything about me, so I don't think you're in a position to judge. And, I don't think my de-conversion was about a lack of thrust, it was more about realizing that the current Guru is totally out of line with what Beas once stood for.

------------------

 

Bernie, I don't agree with you and here's why - RRSB is a hierarchical organization - a poor follower from the village may never be able to meet the Guru, but a rich follower most probably will. All decisions of the Guru are final and unquestionable at every level.

 

An elitist ' inner-circle ' comprising of the Guru's business aides are high-ranked members of the sect. RSSB exercises control over its followers by inducing guilt and fear through their Satsangs and literature. This in turn helps drive the extreme vows that RSSB stands for.

The RSSB asset-corpus is one of the largest in the world amongst spiritual sects, and they continue to acquire more property. A large chunk of land that was bought by donations ( mostly from the poor ) has been sold at a huge profit - there is no clarity about where the funds have been redirected. There is little or no initiative towards humanitarian or charitable activities.

RSSB exploits people through Seva or volunteer work, which is usually directed towards the expansion of the mission in one way or the other.

Though the RS meditation is supposed to be the central tenet of discipleship, discussion about progress in meditation is forbidden. RS-Sant Mat is in many ways dogmatic and ritualistic, but the scorn upon the same when they talk about other religions. All of the above is invisible when you're a believer of the RS path. I'd rather be a practicing Christian, Sikh, Hindu, Buddhist or whatever... Anything is better than RS-Sant Mat.

------------------

 

dman, Roger... I was often corrected by RSSB representatives for questioning fellow and older initiates about their spiritual progress. The reason I began to doubt the whole system stemmed from my opinion that RS-mantra meditation was unproductive for almost everyone practicing it. There was neither any 'spiritual' progress for them, nor were they outwardly relaxed and at peace with the world around them.

Satsangis usually attribute the smallest of their problems to the 'karma' rhetoric and have an overbearing sense of dependence on the guru. To add to that, many appear depressed, dejected or frustrated because at some level they feel that their efforts are futile. A few weeks ago, I bumped into a young ( Indian ) satsangi couple at a bar. They hung around till 2am sipping diet-coke and enviously gazing at groups of people around who were dancing and enjoying themselves. On their way out they said a cold 'hello' to my friends, then looked at our table and gave me a horrid 'you're-going-straight-to-hell' kinda look... :)

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Catherine !! I'm Tara, she is Nayantara. ( Before people think she's the one who's blogging here... LOL !! ) In your comment above, I assume you are referring to Religare. Religare is a for-profit company and the RS ' inner circle ' members make up the top-brass. They are handsomely paid, far more than what they would otherwise get ( for their level of competence ) in other financial services companies.

 

The rest of the employees are ' normal ' people who are hired and paid for their respective roles, but cannot consume non-vegetarian fare in the office premises as one of the rules of the company. Religare is known for its bad corporate governance and its RSSB-like hierarchy, though in this case the Guru is pretty much incognito !

I learnt that the Religare cafeteria is very unhygienic and the restrooms seldom have soap. People are fired unceremoniously, mostly without a reason. Quite mismanaged for God's own company... ( ?? ) This is how things work - Gurinder needs loyal people to stick with Religare as he has big plans for his company. Who would be better than RS initiates ? They look upon him as God so every decision ( right or wrong ) would be regarded as the ' Will of God ' while he gets away without challenge or criticism. The ' higher-ups ' believe that they have been taken care of in every sense, worldly and post-worldly ( Swarath & Parmarath ) so, if you see it from their perspective, they think they couldn't have had it better !

These people and their families are raking it in - physical proximity to the GIHF plus material benefits, all by his grace ! Even though they seem to be staunch followers of the path, they collectively lack the most basic of social skills and some of them have crossed over to being comically hostile. IMO, all the people close to Gurinder have doubts about him being the real deal, but they are playing along with with the guru-game as somewhere down the line they are benefiting - through plump placements within Religare and Fortis, through business alliances that come with the expansion of these companies, through getting better networked for their own personal gains...

 

Then there are the other followers who see him perched on a pristine dais as the Shabd Incarnate - Westerners who seek out the RS philosophy through the meditation technique, Indians ( like myself ) who are born into RS following families who have unconditional faith, new-age ( fanatic ) converts, teary-eyed villagers who abound with tales of miracles and mercy, Charan's old flock who are in silent confusion... There is a big difference between the people who are close to Gurinder and the ones who perceive him as God. Faith is best kept from a distance... :) I guess when you're obsessed with something, more often than not, anything about it is fairly easy to rationalize.

------------------

 

<<< Robert, thanks for your story. Unfortunately, I cannot drop names here as the Indian RS social network will ostracize some of my friends if I do... >>> Well, there is a man who's a part of the RS ' inner circle ' and has has become very busy with the affairs of Religare. I heard that Gurinder told him to meditate when he finds the time... ( ?? ) Having known this man for more than a decade, I can safely conclude that he's gone from being a jerk to a being a mighty jerk.

------------------

 

Robert, you have me confused ! You write - " The Guru is meant to equal God... " So you do subscribe to the GIHF thing, right ? Can you imagine Fakir Chand pulling off a Religare during his time ? I cannot ! And no, a big no, the Master is not a mirror. He is a mirage that is conjured up by the hallucination of one's own imagination. Perceive him as the ' Shabd Incarnate ' and you'll see him that way, perceive him as an ordinary human being and you'll begin to see him like one of us - it is all in the mind. This ' mirror ' thing is mere story telling by RSSB via their cleverly crafted writings to make you feel like shit.

You write - " It can be difficult to have faith in him if we were somehow closely connected to him physically... " Obviously ! Thats how you'll discover the ' real ' Gurinder - an impostor. He is a calculative, shrewd, stony-hearted, power hungry schmuck. Spend some time with him and the ' inner circle ' and you'll reach for the next muffin you'll find. Do you think that any of his core group members are interested in spirituality ? That would be a joke ! These clowns are busy stuffing their pockets with cash as they load up more for Gurinder on the Religare money-train.

------------------

Robert - For almost two years before my departure from RSSB, I enjoyed a neutral, liberalistic view of RS Sant Mat. On the other hand, having met Gurinder several times, I rationalized his apparent imperfections almost subconsciously. My devotion was more of a crutch, a habitual idolization.

Then as time went by, I realised that my perception of RS Sant Mat was stuck in my own childhood, during the last years of Charan Singh. As an adult, the more I got to know Gurinder and the ' inner circle ' the more uncomfortable I felt. Things that I saw and heard felt against the basic grain of what I had learnt about Sant Mat.

It was not easy to address this internally, so for a real long time I ' hung on ' taking refuge in justifying the hypocrisies. The RS philosophy is not straightforward and many aspects are open to personal interpretation. Your idea of the ' real higher self ' maybe radically different from what a pure cultist believes.

------------------

 

SHOCKING !!! Thanks for putting up this information Brian. Strange, I got a call from my cousin this morning and he was telling me the same... :) The more I learn about Gurinder, the less I feel I know ! It saddens me to see what RSSB has become. I hope these articles will be the last straw in the hat for some of my relatives who were left undecided after the Religare exposé. Money from the Ahmedabad land deal is going to go straight into Religare, no doubt about that ! And, how I wish the government comes cracking down on RSSB for the river encroachment issue. Gurinder is very well networked politically, but I hope that the poor farmers get justice this time.

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Deepak - Interesting point, RS does not appeal to the educated lot and to the younger generation in India. The innocent and gullible villagers make up 95 percent of the devotee-bank. Hukai - Self help is great, bettering the world - even greater ! And, improving one's external conditions - that's exactly what the RS guru is doing. So what do you think is better : A. A whole lot of practical mumbo jumbo that addresses your present life. B. A whole lot of authoritarian mumbo jumbo that clearly contradicts the karma rhetoric within its writings.

------------------

 

Hi Deepak, the RSSB representatives gave me that book after the initiation ceremony. Though my translation of the title was ' Earning Your Living Through Rightful & Honest Means ' it has a farmer tilling his field with a cattle-plough on the cover. So, on one hand, RSSB distributes this book after initiation. But, on the other, the Guru's 20 year old son is gifted with a ten-percent equity of a one billion dollar company he has never worked a single day for !

This is an absolute contradiction. What applies to the Sangat must first apply to the Guru and his family. What about the karmic implications of these deals, I wonder... There were always questionable aspects about the RS theology to begin with, even in the days of Charan Singh and the other Great Masters. However, Gurinder has taken his ' gurudom ' to an entirely new level ! If you are a journalist based in India, it would be great if you know someone who might be interested to do a story. Many are ready to give their inputs.

------------------

 

tk : Until a few weeks ago, no one was aware that the RS guru and his family are the co-owners of a two billion dollar financial services company. This has caught every single follower by surprise. RSSB and the guru have obviously kept this cleverly under wraps ! I feel uncomfortable when a mystic figure talks about detachment on one hand, and practices quite the opposite, on the other. What one can get from SEBI ( and partly over the Internet ) are the quarterly and annual results of Religare. But, cross-holding patterns and detailed investor information may be hard to procure as those are confidentially secure with the Religare top-brass, which in this case are the RSSB higher-ups.

------------------

Hi Undecided, Religare was founded in 2006. http://www.linkedin.com/companies/religare The shares were issued to the Guru's family at INR 10 per share before the company went for an IPO on October 29, 2007. As of this morning, Religare's market cap is INR 5061.93 Crores, so you can do the math if the family owns twenty percent of it !

 

Some people also say that they own much more than 20 percent. I heard a few days ago that Malvinder Singh and Shivinder Singh had only a 30 percent stake in Religare now - that too should be verifiable if you have the patience to do an extensive online search. The 30 percent shareholding of Malvinder and Shivinder was also mentioned in a recent article in the print media in India, if I recollect correctly.

 

The eye camps have been closed for over four or five years now. Just ask any representative of RSSB in your city, they will confirm it. I don't know the reason for this, and nor do some of the older Satsangis I have spoken to. Most of them sum it up to the ' mauj ' of the guru or give a similar ( vague ) answer.

 

Yes, I agree with you, all this information put together becomes a real problem for those who are staunch RS believers, specially for the older generation who are Charan's initiates - it becomes difficult to rationalize. It is impossible to look at RS spirituality in isolation, when the guru is involved with transactions amounting to millions of dollars.

 

All of this feels completely wrong then ! My family and their RS friends do not know what to make of this. ( I guess it is imperative at this point to have faith in one's own wings and in one's own judgement. ) Some of them have gone back to their traditional faith - Sikhism.

 

A snippet from a newspaper article that RSSB has published on its website - " Sant Mat does not require asceticism but asks for complete detachment from every activity that retards the progress of the soul. To eat the simplest and purest nourishment definitely helps in controlling the five passions - lust, anger, greed, attachment and egotism. High ethical and moral life is necessary for spiritual progress and God realization. This path also enjoins the followers to earn their livelihood by honest means. The Master himself rigidly follows this principle and accepts nothing from his disciples. " http://www.rssb.org/articles.php Read No. 6 - The Radha Soami Way of God Realization.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Comments

[Jim Sutherland]

@ Spence,...Interesting! I’ll bet you would be a Celebrity as a Speaker, in the “ Jews For Jesus” Organization? I have encountered many Jewish Christian Converts in my time. One of the most Charasmatic was Dr. Morris Cerullo. He had more stories than Swamiji. He was the Preacher’s Preacher in the 80s and 90, all over the West Coast. I became a Member of Melodyland Christian Center in Anaheim, CA. when I moved there in 1979. Dr. Ralph Wilkerson was the Pastor, and he had Dr. Morris Cerrulo there for a Crusade as soon as I got there. He would keep trying to get people to “ See that mighty liquid Fire”......that he said he was always seeing. He was headquarted in the Cortez Hotel in San Diego that his Organization owned, which I had been supporting for years. Had you ever heard of him when you lived in California?

I later first became Licensed to Preach by the So. Ca. Assemblies of God in California, and started a little Church in Laguna Beach in the early 80s. I rented the Woman’s Club Building on Sundays, and had two Services each Sunday. I paid all the expenses out of my own pocket, and almost went broke! My Day job wasn’t covering it as the Congregation grew. Laguna is the 2nd largest Gay Community in CA. Next to San Francisco. I have lotsa stories, but they are archived for another life! But let me tell you, I really learned to Trust God during that time in my life. My Wife was not in the Ministry with me, and was opposed to me doing it. She said she never married a Minister, and didn’t intend to stay with one, either. So I had to choose, and I chose her. But then, God really had other Plans for me. Rosicrucians, Martinistism, then Sant Mat. But I have always retained the best parts of all of them, and discarded what never appealed to me. I HATE all Fundamentaism. It chokes real Mystics. Ex-Sats that are choked , but are still believers in the Philosophy should do as Charan taught us to do. “ Just do the best you can, Brother, and leave the rest to The Lord. , That has always worked for me, and is why my Flame still shines at my Third Eye.😇😍

@Arguna,....” Just do the best you can, and leave the rest to The Lord.”

Cheers,
Jim

[Arjuna]

@ Jim - I will do.

Perhaps see you inside - you will know what I look like that I know 😀

[777]

Arjuna

Perhaps better send him a photograph . . . . nice RDV

but it works with attachments over there

but Masters are the Masters of exceptions

777

[777]

Brian

@ normal conversation
I wouldn't ask

but a kind of "Tara's Book of Accusations"
and nobody knows a tara
any Judge, any teacher, any real interested will ask for time_stamps

777

[777]

Jim
Why You constantly ask for David Lane

Why ?

77

[Spencer Tepper]

Hi 777

Yes I noticed that also.
David is just a guy, and his opinion carries no more weight than anyone else 's. Jim, why do you give it such significance?

Are you actually giving him power over your own sentiments?

After all, selecting a system of belief is a personal matter, an individual choice and we are all free to choose as we like. That's actually what makes spirituality in any form, including Atheism, sacred. It's entirely our choice and only has meaning when it is.

Part of Tara's plight is that she was pressed into it by being born into a Satsangi family whom she loves, and just has no real interest or drive to pursue it. But when pressured to do what you don't like the mind reacts and you see the wild and unsupported accusations that result.

Brian also demonstrates a like reactivity. He is free but somehow acts as if he isn't. His resentment stems from that, from a sense of imposition, the impressions of an older servitude.

We can pick up the guitar and put it down, and when interest takes hold again, pick it up again.

That's the whole idea.

[Brian Hines]

Spencer, you really are a judgmental guy with little understanding of other people. Earth to Spencer, via Brian: I am not resentful. I am not suffering from impressions "of an older servitude." You don't know me, aside from my blog posts, which obviously don't capture either the entirety of me, or the most important parts of me.

So you're not prone to reactivity, which you accuse me of? Your comments aren't reactions to what I and others say? You certainly come across as reactive. Also, hypocritical.

You say in your comment above that everyone is free to choose as we like. I choose atheism. It pleases me. I'm happier now that I've given up the falsehoods of religion. Yet for some reason you appear to be obsessed with criticizing my choice.

Um, you can read the name of this blog, can't you? It's been the same name since 2004: Church of the Churchless. That's how long I've considered myself irreligious. You still are, which is fine. Each to his own. Just keep in mind that you're choosing to comment on a churchless blog, which is run by a churchless blogger, me.

Often you seem surprised, I'd say, reactive, that I'm expressing non-religious beliefs on this here Church of the Churchless. Would you be surprised to visit a Harley-Davidson web site and find that visitors there enjoy riding motorcycles? Would you dedicate yourself to criticizing them for liking to ride motorcycles?

I ask, because you have been so dedicated to criticizing me for having the sort of worldview that I do. I'm flattered, really, since I like attention. But it perplexes me, since obviously nothing you can say is going to change my views toward spirituality, philosophy, the meaning of life, etc.

[One Initiated]

Possibly the meaning of death then at least!

By the way by reading the post:
"Devastating criticism of Gurinder Singh Dhillon by a RSSB insider"
I wonder, who got devastated ?

RSSB believers, non-believers or RSSB itself ?
I think no one and it again proved bad title ;)

Manjit, did you meet Thor on Jupiter ?
Please pass him my hello in case if you did ;)

[Spencer Tepper]

Hi Brian

Hm. I think it's fair to say that our impression of each other might not square with our own impression of ourselves.

You're an Atheist. I admire Atheism. But your posts aren't about Atheism. They are about Sant Mat, and not terribly flattering.

Church of the Churchless. What is this site really supposed to be about?

Let's take a stroll to your link

"If you are spiritual but not religious,
If you don't belong to an organized faith but sometimes wish you did,
Or if you do belong but sometimes wish you didn't,
Welcome to the Church of the Churchless."

Let's see... Yes I consider myself spiritual...

How about you?

Let's continue...

"If you are tired of dogma that divides rather than unites,..."

Yes I'm tired of views that are divisive, and I like perspectives that are inclusive...

Would you say your Tara Tomb meets this criteria?

Next up...
That demands blind faith rather than open-eyed investigation,
That proclaims "You'll see when you believe"
Instead of "You'll believe when you see,"
Welcome to the Church of the Churchless."

Well I saw and heard long before I knew anything about my current meditation path. Proof was first, and the explanations and method for more proof came later.... Hm, that also meets the criteria.

But maybe you've changed your views?

Let me guess.... New Church of the Churchless criteria...

"If you carry a significant grudge against any formal organization of spirituality, but especially Sant Mat... Welcome!

" If you would rather make negative character accusations of others than share your own journey, experiments and wisdom in pursuit of happiness....Welcome!

" If you like to dish out distrust and hate for members of any religion but hate to be confronted with actual facts or feedback... Welcome home!

" If you are nursing long standing resentments that you can't let go, while insisting you have, but prefer those resentments to respect for other beliefs and inclusion.... Welcome...

Either way Brian, whether I accept the original charter for this church and my own sentiments which follow it, or your darker accusations of me band the newer charter above, it's a fit...

For me, yes, and for you.

Just pick which version is you today.

I'm good with either.

"

[Brian Hines]

One Initiated, if you read Tara's comments, you'd realize it was RSSB that got devastated. In case you didn't read all of the comments, here's a few highlights:

(1) Gurinder Singh has been spending much of his time getting hugely rich, with some good reasons to believe that there's been some mingling of RSSB Trust funds and the guru's for-profit investments.

(2) The charitable activities of RSSB have been drastically cut back, maybe because the guru is so busy running for-profit companies.

(3) Gurinder Singh didn't know that he had been anointed the next guru until he got a phone call about this, which goes to show that the guru isn't omniscient, as many devotees believe.

(4) There's no longer an atmosphere of love at the Dera (RSSB headquarters), given the guru's emphasis on secrecy, keeping visitors in line, and sevadars who like to throw their weight around.

(5) RSSB higher-ups are running the companies that enrich the guru and his family, thereby making a mockery of the previous Sant Mat teaching that spiritual uplift should be the main goal of initiates, not becoming hugely rich.

[One Initiated]

Brian,

I am not sure why - but so many comments of mine are not getting posted,
Is there some filter / rules which protects posting of some comments ?

[One Initiated]

Guru jo chahe so karda hai,
Guru khali bhande bharda hai,
Guru bhare nu vi khali karda hain,
Guru jo chahe so karda hain.

meaning:
Master does as he wish,
HE fills the empty vessels,
HE empties the filled ones,
Master does as he wish.

Brian,

Either I don't know the meaning of devastation,
OR you will require to visit Dera Beas / India to realise the truth.

RSSB Dera is incredibly the best and the most soothing place on earth,
I am in big contrast to Jim here,
who has posted too negatively the experience.
Tell me this:
If it's well mentioned that Mobile Phones are not allowed to enter the Dera,
So that the decorum of the Dera cab be maintained,
and everyone has to deposit the phones at the entry,
and Jim is calling it as Confiscation of Mobile phones - does that sound fair ?

And then, for any urgent calling or any communication, the landlines are
available inside the Dera, with accessibility of prepaid coupons,
and then Jim labelled it as scam - wow really ? was that a sincere use of language ?
I mean, Dera is doing to make a fine balance in keeping the atmosphere healthy
and pollution free - and organazing small things like prepaid landline phones
and then we call them scams. - that's surely amazing, isn't it.

On one hand Jim has exaggerated the talks of the QnA and the 69 Joke,
and on the other hand, when in Satsang the Ladies and Gents were shown
the segregated enclosures to have a sitting,
Jim termed them as they were enforced to sit separated for 2-3 hours - wow ?
I know what you should term this expression as.

I don't think that you'd perfectly agree on these points with Jim,
but you've not posted any replies on these remarks posted by Jim either,
I am also mentioning it for the first time.

The Master doesn't need the disciples' permissions
to do the arrangements HE need to do for the betterment
of the universe.

It's already been mentioned on this blog several times.

And if we go by documented history:
You know the scenes of 1947 and 1983 in India,
you will get to know how Dera Beas was used to provide
shelter to everyone - nobody was asked if he was initiate or follower.

All these comments from Tara,
are mainly just an indication that she lacks the faith on the Master
most likely because of her own incompetence in the meditation
and not being able to develop and receive HIS love inside her heart.

It's relatively far easier to be close to Master in physical presence,
and in the same proportion it's difficult to be with HIM inside.

Tara, being called as insider - precisely just a bystander,
She is just as any other one who is there in Beas,
and being close to the Master for maybe any reason (due to the ancestral legacy I think),
whether or not having love and faith for the Master,
and criticising the worldly operations and labelling them as anti-spiritual.

Before even criticising, one has to ask what's their own stand is ?
Did she ever meet the Master inside ?
Has she reached the Par-Brahm ?
And if it's all NO - then her comments doesn't have that gravity.

So Brian, this point is also relating to you correctly, as good as Tara,
You have been in close physical proximity to both Babaji and also HazurJi,
You did have a good connection with Hazur,
but did you ever accomplish the task of meeting HIM inside - Surely No.
So you never achieved your own target - and started blaming the whole RSSB as corrupt.

You call yourself and Tara's experiences as true.
And do you really believe the individuals like 777 and Spencer are all fake ?
And their experiences doesn't count - they are in illusions ?
I don't think it's valid to call others vivid and real and tested and daily experiences as illusions.
Passing judgements on others experiences is totally wrong and hurting.
Your incompetency in getting there - mainly because of your ego - and you have turned
your failure as a missile towards the whole RSSB.

I feel it's huge exaggeration in every point raised by Tara.

The 5 points you mentioned above:

(1) Gurinder Singh has been spending much of his time getting hugely rich, with some good reasons to believe that there's been some mingling of RSSB Trust funds and the guru's for-profit investments.
And HE before making arrangements to save the life of millions (by using the worldly money)
Tara should have permitted that ?

(2) The charitable activities of RSSB have been drastically cut back, maybe because the guru is so busy running for-profit companies.

WHOA - That's the biggest false of the century.
Brian, I can surely tell you that this is utmost wrong
and is just actually a propaganda created by the critiques.
You've to come to India to realise that.
I don't want to mention them all,
but there have been numerous charitable projects that have had been successfully
carried out under the guidance of our current Master Baba Gurinder Singh Ji.
Most of these operations are not even covered by the media - as they are not allowed to.
No marketing is carried out in Santmat.
Only a very few of them appears in media and that's still are at a scale of national help.
I personally know a few members of the group who have given their Sewa in various such events.
If you want I can send you the details over email - but I'd request you to keep them private,
You can even check those personally if you wish to.

This is totally an attempt to tarnish the image,
however, irrespective of that attempts, RSSB keeps on providing the help in their capacity,
and keep working good for humanity wherever possible.
I hope you've seen the video Legacy of Love which covers some bits on this topic.

(3) Gurinder Singh didn't know that he had been anointed the next guru until he got a phone call about this, which goes to show that the guru isn't omniscient, as many devotees believe.

HE didn't give initiation for few years after being positioned as the successor.
You may want to read "Adventure of Faith" which covers this in a beautiful manner.

(4) There's no longer an atmosphere of love at the Dera (RSSB headquarters), given the guru's emphasis on secrecy, keeping visitors in line, and sevadars who like to throw their weight around.

Big big false, only valid for the super egoistical persons.
Again, you are believing on what Tara had to say - and you surely believe her - because you resonate with her ?
I am saying an exact opposite thing - why wouldn't you believe me ?
Best is to go and check yourself rather than promoting someone else's experiences as if they all happened to you.

Every particle at Dera Beas resontes with Love,
but who can realise it - who has that receiving ends in them.
If they are all covered in the Ego - nothing is going to be observed.

Think of a person, who is a Class A Officer,
and demanding same worldly level of comfort and special treatment everywhere,
what can the Guru do to have him feel the Love, the person has to first let go of his ego.
a person with that kind of mindset will never going to feel the Love at Dera,
not matter if he visits today, or if he visits at the times of Sawan Singh Ji Maharaj.
There are many recorded incidences of the similar sort.

(5) RSSB higher-ups are running the companies that enrich the guru and his family, thereby making a mockery of the previous Sant Mat teaching that spiritual uplift should be the main goal of initiates, not becoming hugely rich.

I think it's been mentioned so many times here.
First is that all the events of money earning are legit
and in accord with the govt. - this all started way way back in time
when the Ranbaxy as a very small unit started building a very low cost vaccination.
(Really, a blessing for the world - only the twisted minds call it otherwise.)
This is the resultant of all the decades long efforts.
All the funds are going to be used for humanity.
Nothings going to be wasted or misused.

Enlargement of the Dera premise is required to accommodate
the growing Sangat, we don't need to relate that to land acquisitions.

Ever since HE came on the gaddi,
HE is just always working towards more and more facilities for the sangat.

Earlier the hostels were only for the NRIs and for the Foreigners
and now since more hostels are constructed, they are available for every single one.
Anyone applying timely for hostels, do get that and can have very comfortable stay.

HE has actually worked tremendously in bringing equality to everyone.
If the materialistic world celebs can create nuisances in Sangat,
Isn't It better for the decorum of the Satsang, to provide them separate space.
That's not providing them extra Spiritual Wealth - that's equal for everyone,
depending on how sincerely one is spending time and breaths in meditation.

Breaths are so priceless,
whichever thing/practice they are spent on, that gets improved with time.
If we spend our breaths on meditation and love - it will improve with time.
If we spend on hatred - that will also improve with time.
that's the beauty of breaths.
It's we need to decide what we want to improve upon.
If we are just spending all our breaths always on criticising the Masters,
we will improve in that art

Of course, it's your wish what and how to publish,
But, honestly, unlike your other posts,
to me this republishing of the blog post comments was not at all appealing.

[One Initiated]

Guru jo chahe so karda hai,
Guru khali bhande bharda hai,
Guru bhare nu vi khali karda hain,
Guru jo chahe so karda hain.

meaning:
Master does as he wish,
HE fills the empty vessels,
HE empties the filled ones,
Master does as he wish.

Brian,

Either I don't know the meaning of devastation,
OR you will require to visit Dera Beas / India to realise the truth,
on how it's devastated or flourished under the Master's guidance.

RSSB Dera is incredibly the best and the most soothing place on earth,
I am in big contrast to Jim here,
who has posted too negatively the experience.
Tell me this:
If it's well mentioned that Mobile Phones are not allowed to enter the Dera,
So that the decorum of the Dera cab be maintained,
and everyone has to deposit the phones at the entry,
and Jim is calling it as Confiscation of Mobile phones - does that sound fair ?

And then, for any urgent calling or any communication, the landlines are
available inside the Dera, with accessibility of prepaid coupons,
and then Jim labelled it as scam - wow really ? was that a sincere use of language ?
I mean, Dera is doing to make a fine balance in keeping the atmosphere healthy
and pollution free - and organazing small things like prepaid landline phones
and then we call them scams. - that's surely amazing, isn't it.

On one hand Jim has exaggerated the talks of the QnA and the 69 Joke,
and on the other hand, when in Satsang the Ladies and Gents were shown
the segregated enclosures to have a sitting,
Jim termed them as they were enforced to sit separated for 2-3 hours - wow ?
I know what you should term this expression as.

I don't think that you'd perfectly agree on these points with Jim,
but you've not posted any replies on these remarks posted by Jim either,
I am also mentioning it for the first time.

The Master doesn't need the disciples' permissions
to do the arrangements HE need to do for the betterment
of the universe.

It's already been mentioned on this blog several times.

And if we go by documented history:
You know the scenes of 1947 and 1983 in India,
you will get to know how Dera Beas was used to provide
shelter to everyone - nobody was asked if he was initiate or follower.

All these comments from Tara,
are mainly just an indication that she lacks the faith on the Master
most likely because of her own incompetence in the meditation
and not being able to develop and receive HIS love inside her heart.

It's relatively far easier to be close to Master in physical presence,
and in the same proportion it's difficult to be with HIM inside.

Tara, being called as insider - precisely just a bystander,
She is just as any other one who is there in Beas,
and being close to the Master for maybe any reason (due to the ancestral legacy I think),
whether or not having love and faith for the Master,
and criticising the worldly operations and labelling them as anti-spiritual.

Before even criticising, one has to ask what's their own stand is ?
Did she ever meet the Master inside ?
Has she reached the Par-Brahm ?
And if it's all NO - then her comments doesn't have that gravity.

So Brian, this point is also relating to you correctly, as good as Tara,
You have been in close physical proximity to both Babaji and also HazurJi,
You did have a good connection with Hazur,
but did you ever accomplish the task of meeting HIM inside - Surely No.
So you never achieved your own target - and started blaming the whole RSSB as corrupt.

You call yourself and Tara's experiences as true.
And do you really believe the individuals like 777 and Spencer are all fake ?
And their experiences doesn't count - they are in illusions ?
I don't think it's valid to call others vivid and real and tested and daily experiences as illusions.
Passing judgements on others experiences is totally wrong and hurting.
Your incompetency in getting there - mainly because of your ego - and you have turned
your failure as a missile towards the whole RSSB.

I feel it's huge exaggeration in every point raised by Tara.

The 5 points you mentioned above:

(1) Gurinder Singh has been spending much of his time getting hugely rich, with some good reasons to believe that there's been some mingling of RSSB Trust funds and the guru's for-profit investments.

And HE before making arrangements to save the life of millions (by using the worldly money)
Tara should have permitted that ?

(2) The charitable activities of RSSB have been drastically cut back, maybe because the guru is so busy running for-profit companies.

WHOA - That's the biggest false of the century.
Brian, I can surely tell you that this is utmost wrong
and is just actually a propaganda created by the critiques.
You've to come to India to realise that.
I don't want to mention them all,
but there have been numerous charitable projects that have had been successfully
carried out under the guidance of our current Master Baba Gurinder Singh Ji.
Most of these operations are not even covered by the media - as they are not allowed to.
No marketing is carried out in Santmat.
Only a very few of them appears in media and that's still are at a scale of national help.
I personally know a few members of the group who have given their Sewa in various such events.
If you want I can send you the details over email - but I'd request you to keep them private,
You can even check those personally if you wish to.

This is totally an attempt to tarnish the image,
however, irrespective of that attempts, RSSB keeps on providing the help in their capacity,
and keep working good for humanity wherever possible.
I hope you've seen the video Legacy of Love which covers some bits on this topic.

(3) Gurinder Singh didn't know that he had been anointed the next guru until he got a phone call about this, which goes to show that the guru isn't omniscient, as many devotees believe.

HE didn't give initiation for few years after being positioned as the successor.
You may want to read "Adventure of Faith" which covers this in a beautiful manner.

(4) There's no longer an atmosphere of love at the Dera (RSSB headquarters), given the guru's emphasis on secrecy, keeping visitors in line, and sevadars who like to throw their weight around.

Big big false, only valid for the super egoistical persons.
Again, you are believing on what Tara had to say - and you surely believe her - because you resonate with her ?
I am saying an exact opposite thing - why wouldn't you believe me ?
Best is to go and check yourself rather than promoting someone else's experiences as if they all happened to you.

Every particle at Dera Beas resontes with Love,
but who can realise it - who has that receiving ends in them.
If they are all covered in the Ego - nothing is going to be observed.

Think of a person, who is a Class A Officer,
and demanding same worldly level of comfort and special treatment everywhere,
what can the Guru do to have him feel the Love, the person has to first let go of his ego.
a person with that kind of mindset will never going to feel the Love at Dera,
not matter if he visits today, or if he visits at the times of Sawan Singh Ji Maharaj.
There are many recorded incidences of the similar sort.

(5) RSSB higher-ups are running the companies that enrich the guru and his family, thereby making a mockery of the previous Sant Mat teaching that spiritual uplift should be the main goal of initiates, not becoming hugely rich.

I think it's been mentioned so many times here.
First is that all the events of money earning are legit
and in accord with the govt. - this all started way way back in time
when the Ranbaxy as a very small unit started building a very low cost vaccination.
( and that's a blessing for the world )
This is the resultant of all the decades long efforts.
All the funds are going to be used for humanity.
Nothings going to be wasted or misused.

Ever since HE came on the gaddi,
HE is just always working towards more and more facilities for the Sangat.

Earlier the hostels were only for the NRIs and for the Foreigners
and now since more hostels are constructed, they are available for every single one.
Anyone applying timely for hostels, do get that and can have very comfortable stay.

HE has actually worked tremendously in bringing equality to everyone.
If the materialistic world celebs can create nuisances in Sangat,
Isn't It better for the decorum of the Satsang, to provide them separate space.
That's not providing them extra Spiritual Wealth - that's equal for everyone,
depending on how sincerely one is spending time and breaths in meditation.

Breaths are so priceless,
whichever thing/practice they are spent on, that gets improved with time.
If we spend our breaths on meditation and love - it will improve with time.
If we spend on hatred - that will also improve with time.
that's the beauty of breaths.
It's we need to decide what we want to improve upon.
If we are just spending all our breaths always on criticising the Masters,
we will improve in that art

Of course, it's your wish what and how to publish,
But, honestly, unlike your other posts,
to me this republishing of the blog post comments was not at all appealing.

[One Initiated]

It looks like your blog's spam filters are holding back the long text comments under moderation.
If that is the case, you might see many of them from me, could you please approve latest which is the direct response to the points you mentioned above and discard all the others from me.

Thank You.

[Jim Sutherland]

777 asks Jim,......”Jim
Why You constantly ask for David Lane

Why ?”

Jim obliges an answer,......to 777 and Spence who also asks the same question,....

Because neither of you know, or care, it seems obvious, the multitudes of sincere seekers, as well as initiated Satsangis that were not only discouraged and driven away from not only RSSB, but Sant Mat and the other Branches of Sant Sat altogether.

I am like a Detective, who KNOWS Lane is guilty of Spiritual Murder to the Multitudes he sentenced to death, by his Articles, Books, Pseudo Science , Brain vs. mind Articles and until Lane is indicted, and brought to Justice in a Trial by a Jury of his Peers, I will continue to be the Thorn in his side until,......either he turns him self in, and confesses he is a Hypocrite, and a Double Agent Fraud, still speaking out of both sides of his mouth, or, he apologizes to those he has really caused to leave the Path, because instead of deleting all of his writings criticizing Gurinder, RSSB and Sant Mat, he has chosen to sell them on the Internet.

Why do you Guys continue harping on what Brian keeps posting to keep holding Gurinder’s feet to the fire and the activities of RSSB?

At least, Brian is honest about his reasons, unlike Lane who has had far, far more effect on the lives of those who have left the Sant Mat Path than any other single Atheist that I have ever come accross.

Lane has never even conviced me, by his writings, that he is not an Atheist, so considering he has posted on Brian’s Forums in the part how Brian is his friend, and what a wonderful meaningful Sat Sang Brian provides by his Churchless Church, what better place could Lane possibly appear to set the Record straight, and either confess he has never changed his mind about any of his past critiques, or he HAS, and has repented, and is back on the RSSB Sach Khand Viceroy Express as a loyal Satsangi in Gurinder Singh’s Good Graces.

The only Way Lane is going to escape from Prosecution is to turn him self in, and confess, explain, or Cop a Plea in this Court of Injustice to Gurinder Singh Dhillon.

I have been chosen by Anami Purush to be Lane’s Prosecuting Attorney.

We can settle out of Court, if Lane comes clean and admits he is a Just as much of an Atheist non believer as Brian is, or, present his Witnesses and evicence to the contrary.

This Court is now adjourned for Recess,
Jim Sutherland

[Arjuna]

@ All.

Let’s chill and watch the football game or soccer game as the yanks call it.

🏴󠁧󠁢󠁥󠁮󠁧󠁿 England vs Sweden 🇸🇪 !!!

It’s kicks off at 15:00hrs uk time! C’mon England!!!!

It’s more exciting than arguing guys 😀

[Jim Sutherland]

A Post in RSS Feb. 2016 is an example of how Professor Lane has confused even Charan Initiates still clinging to their glimmer of hope that the Shabd in God. After reading Lane’s old Book, “ Enchanted Land”, a Charan Initiate who had been meditating daily for 40 years posted the following challenging Lane. The Internet Archives have no mercy for denials of past statements by any of us.

“Dave wrote the article everything came from his mind.
He does not believe in a God
And he says the shabd is not God
Basing himself on faquir that it's all created by the mind there is no shabd.
While the edited books he did left the fact Faquir did believe the shabd was God.
And Faquir taught God as shabd.

Faquir did not write his own books it was other people
the mind has created the contradictions the conflicted nature
Mata ji did believe in God why if Faquir supposedly did not.
Faquir so most advanced disciple
Simply if the shabd knows what it's doing then the shabd in the Guru can know
The shabd is God then the guru is a god man. This crumbles his whole Faquir Chadian effect.

This was posted by an advaced desciple who was initiated by Charan even before even Lane was.

Imagine the confusion Lane has caused young Seekers to have.

Jim Sutherland

[Jim Sutherland]

Here was a other Satsangi posting a challenge to Lane’s “ Chandian effect.” That was years ago, and Lane is still tauting Fakir Chand’s initerviews. How do we English speaking Satsangis who don’t speak Hindi know if Fakir was translated correctly? We don’t.

Here was what the Satsangi posted:

“The books are unanimous God is in the shabd The first form God used is sound the second mater as described by babu ji. This one fact was how Faquir Chand and others have been fooled by the fact that we are told by others that Faquir Chand went against his own Guru said that all this was just a projection of his mind. Or perhaps fraud has been perpetrated against him. Obviously it was just that. The audible life stream before it created this creation was a quiet life force of pure love.

The fact that all unanimously say that the shabd is God makes it easy to worship God within and to realize God in this very life before death.

People who think the sound is just a pleasant sound that rings within nothing more are receiving their just deserts.

When we peel the onion of covers by removing all the obstacles like the Gurus form the colored lights and the cult and its people and stand there with only you and God then you are there with only that eternal being. This is what I believe Faquir Chand was tiring to say.

The life force makes the brain live the life force makes the mind live the life force make a body live. The life force sustains the seer and listener they all get there life from one source that source is called by many names it is also called the shabd dhun.

That shabd is God.

When a Buddhist reaches the last stage who is the observer and listener they do not know, and who is keeping that alive. This one very important point cuts all the strings of illusion in this labyrinth of spirituality. If these people who are soulless and godless cannot answer that then they know nothing.

In the beginning was life and before was also life and that life billion of years in existence is still alive. The audible life stream rings a sound current it is the creator it is God it is the truth that all others are fooled like a blind man who scratches an itch on his head and misses the door to freedom.

Faquir Chand may have been devoted to the shabd because after he reached the age of ninety he was in love with the deep steady tone as he said in his book where his foe forgot to remove that. I believe he has been taken out of context and some cheaters have misrepresented him. Simply he may have meant to say he did not know what the lord does and why the shabd uses his form but it clear it was the shabd or God that saved the people who said they saw Faquir Chand.

It's a shame that credit is not given to the one who deserves it. But it just may be that a few thugs have misrepresented Faquir Chand and dis honored his name simply because he was trying to teach the God the shabd within is who does all the miracles.

People like Ramana and the like who really know nothing about the shabd end up not having the opportunity to devote them self to the real truth. “

Jim Sutherland

[One Initiated]

I think it's not that easy to overcome the guilt, Jim.

So it might be the case with us in near future
for cursing and blaming the present Master,
if we realise that all the posting we have done against HIM,
were wrong interpretations and games of our own mind,
how easy we'd be able to come onboard and correct ourselves ?

So is the case with Lane,
his online absence itself tells a million things.
If he is reading this, I wish him good luck on the journey.

[Arjuna]

@ one initiated.

I feel useless if Master knew I would end up like this why initiate me.

I know all the failings are mine and mine alone but I still like him and would love if he drove past my house and waved at me.

Me being silly I guess

[Jim Sutherland]

@One Initiated, ......in spite of my hounding him to return to the Forums where he has sowed his Karmas, I really do not have any Vitriol against him, other that to entice him to come clean, ( for his own good and health ) and either tell us all he was wrong about his past criticisms of Gurinder, Charan, RSSB and other RS Branches. and to try and explain to us all why he has changed, and what or who convinced him to disappear off the scene , leaving all he has convinced , that Sant Mat Philosophy is not a valid Path to the God that Faquir Chant worshipped.

He has said way too much against the Sant Mat Path to just leave us all hanging with out a valid, humble explanation.

I would apologise in a heart beat, to all I have caused to loose faith in Christ, should I find that I was mistaken by any false information I shared to any Seekers or fellow Satsangis about any of my experiences I have shared in public, on either my blog, or forums.

Jim Sutherland

[777]

Hééé Guys, Think

He is no atheist
Multiple times he said he believes in "EXISTENCE"

He is scared to death and also admitted that here

He would end this blog but can't let that happen after what happened to his books
Death

His giant book collection serves as a kind of confirmation support,. . . kind of psychic fundament
but it's not rock, . . it is sand

and when 'doubt' come up , and the bladder prostate tortures, .. there is no comfort in the neighborhood except exponential ''atheism"" @1991_!_madam Hines_

He says "you don't know me" , . . Brian you forget we read also your Salem Blog and much more

You can't find Tara , . . . she is regretting all this half a lifetime, I guess
but your hate of God's man needed to excave revive it

You know like Jim what is the solution to hate
but can't

Until sadness will do . . .

777

[One Initiated]

Arjuna,
I always loved watching fifa,
however, could not watch a single match this season.

why in the universe you'd think you've ended up ?
that's said by The Great Master:
"even if you find your love and faith in HIM in the last breath of your life, your whole birth is worth it"

I have nothing to go against Jim,
but also I don't buy at all what he says about current Master.
I believe that like many others,
he has also got tricked by his mind and is still in that state
as far as RSSB and Babaji are concerned.

Here are two very important messages from our Masters:

Hazur Maharaj Charan Singh Ji:
"If you spend 2.5 hours daily for 40 days, come and blame me if you don't find any noticeable change"

Sardar Bahadur Singh Ji:
"If you spend 3 continuous hours in thoughtless notion, third eye can be realised."

Have you ever spent 2.5 hours daily (Without fail)
for continuous 40 days ?
If not, then could you do this justice with yourself ?
could you do it continuous for 40 days and share with us all if you notice some significant change ?
If it does, isn't it worth trying ?

Start with spending 15 minutes daily at exactly same time,
Increase 5~10 minutes every week, I am sure you're going to witness amazing changes.
Don't assume the results coming in so quickly - will take time if you've not been sitting for too long.
Also, a lot of ups and downs will be there - sometime the whole week of goodness, sometimes even 10 days dry like there is nothing in it. Consistency in meditation and faith on HIM is the key.

Lots of love brother.

[One Initiated]

Arjuna,

why in the universe you'd think you've ended up ?
that's said by The Great Master:
"even if you find your love and faith in HIM in the last breath of your life, your whole birth is worth it"

Here are two very important messages from our Masters:

Hazur Maharaj Charan Singh Ji:
"If you spend 2.5 hours daily for 40 days, come and blame me if you don't find any noticeable change"

Sardar Bahadur Singh Ji:
"If you spend 3 continuous hours in thoughtless notion, third eye can be realised."

Have you ever spent 2.5 hours daily (Without fail)
for continuous 40 days ?
If not, then could you do this justice with yourself ?
could you do it continuous for 40 days and share with us all if you notice some significant change ?
If it does, isn't it worth trying ?

Start with spending 15 minutes daily at exactly same time,
Increase 5~10 minutes every week, I am sure you're going to witness amazing changes.
Don't assume the results coming in so quickly - will take time if you've not been sitting for too long.
Also, a lot of ups and downs will be there - sometime the whole week of goodness, sometimes even 10 days dry like there is nothing in it. Consistency in meditation and faith on HIM is the key.

Lots of love brother.

[Arjuna]

@ One Initiated.

Thank you for the kind reply. I have no words but to say thank you.

I will digest your words of wisdom.

Lots of love and best wishes

[One Initiated]

So yeah, as he said:
Burn the Books,
only after reading them - ha ha 😃

and sit on meditation after burning 😉

Also don't forget to make yourself a cup of tea on the flames,
will help being awake at 3 AM 😉

[Arjuna]

@ One Initiated - I wake at 02:47hrs most night on the hour without a clock and on the minute.

Freaky hey 🙏

[Brian Hines]

One Initiated, yes, Typepad has a spam filter. That is essential, especially since i no longer approve comments for publication. Every day Typepad catches actual spam. It also catches some comments that aren't spam. Your comments were quite long, and I recall one included a foreign language, Hindi, I assume. You also submitted the same comment numerous times, which doesn't help. In fact, it might hurt, since the spam filter might assume the comment is coming from an automated spammer.

Anyway, I believe I found and published all of the recent comments that were in the spam section. It doesn't help when comments are copied and repeatedly attempted to publish, because every time I approve a comment in the spam filter, the page resets to the top comment, and I have to scroll through (in your case) repeated lengthy comments, looking for a new one that is a real comment, not spam.

I try to remember to check the spam filter daily, but sometimes I forget.

[Spencer Tepper]

Hi One Initiated,

Great and helpful comments!

Thank you!!

[Arjuna]

@ Spencer - yourself, Uncle Jim and One initiated may have helped in ways you cannot possibly fathom. Thank you.

Ps England win against Sweden in Russia 2-0. We are through to the semi finals first time in 28 years in the World Cup.

Think posting that up here - brought the team luck lol

[Spencer Tepper]

Arjuna
"Ps England win against Sweden in Russia 2-0. We are through to the semi finals first time in 28 years in the World Cup.

Think posting that up here - brought the team luck lol"

LOL!!

[One Initiated]

Brian,
Thank you for going through them and publishing, I really appreciate that.

Thanks Spencer, I am glad.

Arjuna - Yo Brother !! ⚽

[Arjuna]

@ Spencer - yes posting the England game on here brought them a win. Imagine all the spiritual power on here.

@ One Initiated - loved your football response - awesome😀

[Brian Hines]

777, I deleted your ridiculous comment about me and my health problem. You and your wife don't know me, and you don't know anything about how I deal with life, this blog, or anything else.

I'm (obviously) open to all kinds of strange and often erroneous comments being posted on this blog, but I draw the line at hurtful personal attacks directed at me, or anyone else..

Talk about issues. Talk about current events. Talk about philosophy. But keep the personal attacks to yourself. Your comments already often are notoriously off-topic. My advice to you is to act like a normal courteous human being who is speaking face-to-face with other people. Frequently you spout stuff that either is incomprehensible, or would make people you're talking to go, "Huh? I have no idea what that means."

And again, when it comes to personal attacks -- keep them in your own mind, not in a comment you want to be shared on this blog. I'm not OK with personal attacks directed at me, because I'm not OK with personal attacks directed at anybody.

[GS]

There wasn't much seva today at Haynes as everyone watched the England match at 3pm in the sports hall on 2 big screens.

I think with Baba Ji's grace England went through lol.

[Jen]

One Initiated says: "I have nothing to go against Jim,
but also I don't buy at all what he says about current Master.
I believe that like many others, he has also got tricked by his mind and is still in that state as far as RSSB and Babaji are concerned."

This is so ridiculous and also very revealing as to the bias in the way satsangis think that they cannot even see or hear the truth if their guru shows who he really is, just another impure human being with faults like all the rest of us. The power of belief is staggering and also shows how desperate people are and how easily they can be fooled.

[777]

You are right
I should have send it in an email

It was 4 U anyway

Sorry for the mistake

777

Afterall our Master deleted it

[Brian Hines]

777, No I deleted it. Please don't assume that I share your fantasies.

[One Initiated]

Brian,

I did read that comment though before you deleted,
Honestly, I didn't find it was an attack at all.

I completely believe that it was a genuine concern for you.

And so do I genuinely wish you to feel better soon, brother.

[Brian Hines]

One Initiated, it was a gratuitous uncalled-for comment that assumed that my health condition controls me, whereas actually it is a problem that I'm dealing with pretty darn well. I resented a stranger, "777," considering that he knows me better than I know myself, when actually he doesn't know me at all, except through my writings.

The Big Fallacy, which most religiously-minded commenters on this blog make regularly, as do people in general, is that they wrongly believe that they know what motivates someone to do something. Actually, they don't. It is a neuroscientific fact that our behavior, including thoughts and feelings, emanates from sources in the mind outside of conscious awareness.

So these commenters don't even know why they are doing what they're doing, much less why someone else is doing what they're doing. But they have been ascribing motives to Tara, for example, that are unfounded. Yes, it is human nature to want to believe that we know why someone is doing something. That's why gossip is so addicting.

But a wiser approach is to focus on what a person is doing, which includes what they are writing, obviously. That's why I keep asking people to focus on WHAT Tara said, or WHAT i'm saying, rather than engaging in assumptions about WHY someone is saying something. You can disagree with a "what." Speculating about "why" often, if not usually, is unproductive.

Tara herself says that it was learning about some disturbing things going on with RSSB and Gurinder Singh (likely financial dealings) that led to her becoming disenchanted with RSSB/Sant Mat. I take her at her word. Maybe this isn't the whole truth, but like I just said, no one knows the whole truth about Tara's behavior, not even Tara.

Yet commenters on this blog have been talking about how it was Tara's lack of spiritual progress that caused her deconversion. They say this with no evidence, no proof, and they don't even know Tara. Plus, it is at odds with what Tara said. They use their speculations to discount WHAT she said because supposedly the WHY is suspect. However, they don't know the why, only the what.

Why is President Trump doing what he is doing? I have no idea, though hypotheses abound. But that doesn't stop me from criticizing what he is doing. The why may be interesting to talk about, but the what is much more important. I readily admit that I too fall prey to engaging in "why" speculations, but at least I recognize that this is a fool's quest.

[777]

-

I now understand

You lost contact with Tara
She might be dead since 20 years
or have seen the Light

What was her age at the 'write'-time ?

777

[manjit]

Hi Marko - thank you for reposting my comment from RSS to here :o) I tried twice, but it never came through! No, I have never communicated with "Tara" (I think Tim might have? :)...I don't even really recall any of her posts, but the name rang a bell....brave and courageous woman, if she is who she says she is, which there's no reason to doubt.....her comments are clearly very well informed indeed, regardless, and one of the most interestings posters on RSSB I've ever read!

Hi "GS" - thanks for sharing, it's much appreciated....

Hi Spencer - reading your justification of how Gurinder and his sons made their millions, how they were humanitarian "heroes", was amusing. For those of us not affiliated with any particular religion or group, and who understand capitalism, the pharmaceutical industry, shareholder profit, the claims that were made against them, what it takes to reach the top ten richest Indians etc.....they would perhaps only be able to giggle at the contortions you feel forced to make to portray them as "heroes". It would be incredible, if it wasn't so utterly predictable! ;)

It is noteworthy that amongst all this defence of Gurinder, justifications for his obscene wealth, his sexualised comments during satsang, clear creation of a worldly foundation to his organisation etc, that there is not a single indicator or reason to believe he actually is the "Perfect Living Master", sole saviour in the entire universe, the person the entire infinite creation on 3 levels etc was actually created for, a perfect & infallible human being with divine insights and powers etc. Indeed, there are no apparent indications he is a "mystic" or deeply "realised" person at ALL, other than the mere fact of his worldly position, handed to him by his uncle, as the leader of a worldly religion?

All the "inner experiences", synchronicities etc that are PROJECTED upon him clearly - very clearly - don't prove anything about him or his theology, per se, as these experiences are had by countless others with different gurus and even beliefs, even gurus who are obvious and self-proclaimed "frauds".

Some people are interested in a comforting, self-based narrative, a journey to "sach khand" in the company of the sole "Satguru" of mankind, where personal bliss is experienced for eternity eg.; that is fine. But others are more interested in the nature of reality itself. They are not happy with synchronicities and "inner experiences" that appear to confirm the reality of one's beliefs, but rather want to examine why these SAME experiences happen to people of ALL beliefs, what is the ultimate nature of reality BEYOND my PERSONAL ego's journey and narrative....

Hi One Initiated - you ask: "Hazur Maharaj Charan Singh Ji:
"If you spend 2.5 hours daily for 40 days, come and blame me if you don't find any noticeable change".......

Have you ever spent 2.5 hours daily (Without fail)
for continuous 40 days ?"

In the hathayogapradipika, the 15th century tantric "kundalini" text, it is claimed: "82. By practicing with this nada, all other external sounds are stopped. The Yogi becomes happy by overcoming all distractions within 15 days."

Why 25 days slower for Charan initiates? :)

Charan also claimed that if someone followed the instruction for "6 months", they would have some sort of "experience" which confirms or "proves" for them the "validity" of the RSSB path.

Sawan, and David Lane, have both mentioned the notion that if one can sit still for 3 hours without moving (and falling asleep), one would surely reach the 3rd eye - this is an old tantric claim, too. These are universal biological mechanisms available for anyone to use, regardless of one's affiliation with any particular "guru" or organisation

Kirpal Singh, on the other hand, promised some sort of "spiritual experience" of the 3rd eye at the very moment of initiation regardless of the initiate's preparation, in order to prove his power & capability to "initiate" into the shabd. He also claimed that Jagat & Charan were not real Satgurus with the ability to perform this "real" initiation, but more like worldly caretakers of the "mayaic" religious organisation and properties of RSSB.

What to make of all this confusion amongst the Pooran Sant Satguru successors of Sawan? Not to mention the utter confusion surrounding Jaimal's "succession" to Soamiji!

Who is the "real" "Satguru"? All of them? None of them? Just Baba Billionaire so and so? Does it even matter?

Hi All - I personally don't find RSSB to be any more potentially dangerous than any other mainstream religion or even secular ideology. However, the behaviour and rationalisations and justifications of many followers of RSSB, just like any other religion, can be "cultic" at times. It can be wise to notice this behaviour in others quietly and non-judgementally, and in this way we might realise the ways we do it ourselves:

https://www.imdb.com/title/tt8457940/

I can see several episodes are available on online, interesting documentary series.

Also, a highly recommended documentary (just found this youtube link, hope it's the complete version):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J_xFeyUXjno

[manjit]

Hi Arjuna - It's coming home!!! (though probably not) :D PS - are you the now infamous and legendary guy who tackled Gurinder at Haynes Park and knocked his turban a bit off?!

Hi Jim! - It is interesting you post what looks like "Ramnam's" (Daniel) comments (but with good spelling!) from RSS over here (is it him?), as if some sort of valid criticism of David Lane and Faqir Chand!

It is interesting because I think it highlights one of the major problems with RS & specifically RSSB as a "safe" "spiritual system" of evolution.

Ramnam is of course one of the most profane & personally abusive posters in the history of the RSS forum, legendarily so! Having debated him many times over 20 years, it is evident his knowledge of many things he attempted to discuss was virtually non-existent (like Ramana Maharshi), yet he debated nonetheless. Often, he would return many years later having "integrated", to some extent, that what he was debating against years prior (for eg., lucid dreams, or for eg. his recent "Automatic Path", trademark, which seems to be a restatement of ancient indian philosophy more representative of Advaita than RS etc).

He is also known for his statement of reclining in the "astral realm" with Charan Singh whilst Charan smoked a cigar (5 names tested, for sure)!

There simply is no understanding of how the mind creates illusions, at all. And as the physical guru - EVEN IF s/he be utterly competent - is so distant and remote, that there is ZERO chance of personalised, individualised instruction and advice, that we are literally left with our mind and it's creations, and a flimsy and demonstrably untrue "5 names test", we are essentially potentially lost in our dualistic fantasies forever. Or until death, at least!

That is why 777 believes, and has clearly stated, that he has come "to save Jim's soul". That is why 777 believes, apparently, judging by his recent posts (some deleted), that he has also come to save Brian's "soul". He has "5 names tested" these "beliefs", right? Not realising these are fantasies of the ego, he also doesn't realise that his behaviour towards these posters doesn't have the whiff of "divine intercession", but instead the whiff of egotistical behaviour motivated by a hurt & bruised ego. So indoctrinated is this sense of "divine" (read delusional & egotistical) purpose, that other RS believers instead of requesting he be more thoughtful of his behaviour, will actually enable & reinforce this kind of obviously delusional, hurtful & un-compassionate behaviour. Having made some criticisms of RS here, I was told by one poster, in a completely incoherent and transparently delusional rant, that I "will eat shit, and eat it soon". In response to this, another RSSB poster, one who I feel likes to portray themself as the rational, sane representative of RSSB here, instead of criticising that previous poster's angry, delusional, wishing for suffering of another human being simply due to a theological disagreement post, actually reinforced and enabled them, and adding, without any hint of irony, how some posters - referring to me and my perceived criticisism of RSSB - "have mental health issues".

Anyway, this is all dangerous, "cultic" behaviour, if you ask me.

Ramnam also reminds me of another of your friends from the RSS forum, Michael Martin. I've heard you praise him here. It is worth noting this was another person who thought the "inner Charan" had appointed them the "Western Satguru", and stuck to this claim despite RSSB writing a letter stating this was, obviously, not so and incorrect. He is most well known for his ridiculous & outrageously self-centred & outlandish claims, such as one of the NASA shuttle disasters in Texas occurring as a warning to all the online posters, such as David Lane, that criticised him. He believed his visions because he supposedly had a magical "5 word test" than magically banished the illusions created by an ego-centric self.

This also reminds me, Jim - did you ever meet Katherine Weston (is it, Wesson, C instead of K maybe?), who was a Charan initiate, and then set up her own "ministry" as a shabd yoga guru in USA, and also doesn't have complimentary things to say about Gurinder? She wrote a book for RSSB, I think it was called "Living Master", but they discontinued it possibly because she set up on her own. Anyway, she was in America, possibly is still around, giving sound and light initiation.....

Speaking of the delusions and conceptual fantasies that are fed to us through our visionary and other assorted inner experiences, you mention the OAHPSE book, and have mentioned the Alan Kardec books previously too.

I think BEFORE any seriously discussion can take place around ANY channelled material - or the veracity and validity of the conceptual cosmologies and theologies presented therein, utterly contradictory as they very often are, this book should be read as a most basic primer and introduction to the subject:

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Channeling-Investigations-Receiving-Information-Paranormal/dp/1556432488

Without this basic level of understanding of the phenomena, we are left clinging to absurd, lacking in evidence concepts and cosmologies, but sound lovely and flowery like those presented in OAHPSE, the Book or Mormon or whatever else.

Further, without having a thorough familiarity with the works of FWH Myers and subsequent scientific, psychological and philosophical works such as, for 1 example out of thousands, "Irreducible Mind", we are again at a loss to understand the phenomena of channelling and the, if any, significance of the "concepts" which are expressed through it.

As well as it's inextricable connection to mystical experiences, paranormal phenomena, "past life regression", poltergeists & hauntings, "alien abduction" narratives etc etc OF ALL SORTS.

PS - Yeah, those satsangs of Chand David Lane translated, they ARE accurate translations! They are, or at least were, posted up in the original Hindi-punjabi for a long while. I can understand Hindi, and I listened to all of them - I was struck out just how accurate Lane's presentation of his teachings were, especially seeing as Chand is talking to his Sikh disciple, not a westerner!

Cheers!

[Arjuna]

Hello - Manjit.

Lol. I do like football but Master did call me a “cheat” when I mistimed my tackle against another sevadar. I felt gutted - it destroyed as I would never hurt another.

Perhaps he was looking at my past lives - but I cannot remember what I may have done.

I gotta feeling Manjit that England will do it but as you stated probably not. It would be nice though.

All the best

[G.S]

Manjit,Arjuna,

Football is the Guru's favorite sport, that's why he allowed the England game against Sweden to be shown on the 2 TV's in the sports hall.

Are any of you going to the national satsangs next month? My parents know I don't follow RS anymore, but if I don't go next month, my mum will be very disappointed lol.

Manjit, your name rings a bell, did you ever post on Lane's forum? I'd love to email you privately.

[Spencer Tepper]

Hi Manjit

You wrote
"There simply is no understanding of how the mind creates illusions, at all. And as the physical guru - EVEN IF s/he be utterly competent - is so distant and remote, that there is ZERO chance of personalised, individualised instruction and advice, that we are literally left with our mind and it's creations, and a flimsy and demonstrably untrue "5 names test", we are essentially potentially lost in our dualistic fantasies forever. Or until death, at least!"

The mind creates illusions that is for sure.

No where is this more obvious than watching someone, caught up in their illusion of perfect truth, discounting everyone who believes differently than they do as wrong.

" The opposite of one truth may not be false. It may be another truth."
Niels Bohr.

[Arjuna]

@ GS. Yes I heard and it was awesome for Master to do that.

I am not going to National satsang but would love to go to see Him. Long story.

All the very best brother

[manjit]

Hi Arjuna - I wouldn't take everything Gurinder says so seriously, he has a tendency to muck around, be "playful"....he was probably just talking about something you did on the pitch!

Hi G.S. - yes, I've posted on that forum for decades! Are you from the UK? How old are you - I used to go Haynes Park every single weekend (some holidays etc) for several years, some 20-22 years ago? I was once there when Gurinder played football with the kids. I could have played too but I decided to continue with my seva instead! Lots of stories from those days :)

Hi Spencer, you wrote: "No where is this more obvious than watching someone, caught up in their illusion of perfect truth, discounting everyone who believes differently than they do as wrong."

Yes, this explains Soamiji's Sar Bachan and Radhasoami theology perfectly. But this doesn't address the points I actually made? It seems you are instead suggesting that I am caught up in an "illusion of perfect truth", a random semi-anonymous person on a forum with absolutely no organisation, books, anything of any note to sell on any human level, whilst completely ignoring you are completely & whole-heartedly following and defending a faith that explicitly does exactly what you are projecting onto this random individual, ie. me?

Never mind, we all have our dharmas to follow :)

Hi Jim - I think you're being unfair on Dave in your comments, although I agree he perhaps should make some public statement seeing as all these rumours and claims are floating around.

However, I think it clear from he continues to post in public, and in context of his work for Oxford University Press with Prof. Juergensmeyer, that his views more or less remain the same, and that much ado about nothing is being made online.

This is what David Lane wrote late last year:

http://www.integralworld.net/lane129.html

An absolutely excellent & informative essay on the actual practice of shabd yoga.

He posted this a few days ago on RSS forum (I bought my copy from amazon uk!):

https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/radhasoamistudies/conversations/messages/263443

etc.

There is absolutely no reason to make a conflagration between his work, some random visits to Beas or satsang, with any kind of advocacy of the RSSB guru, path or theology.

Cheers!

[manjit]

Oh dear, I wrote several responses but it hasn't been posted, I think I may have closed the window before it was sent! :(

Briefly then...

Hi Arjuna - I would take everything Gurinder says so seriously, he is known for "having a laugh", he was probably just teasing you for something you did on the pitch (perhaps he was simply mistaken!).

Hi G.S. - yes, I've posted over at Dave's (now James') Radhasoamistudies forum for 20 odd years now! How old are you? I used to do seva at Haynes Park every weekend and some holidays for several years, around 18-22 years ago (I'm 40 now). I was there when Gurinder played football with some kids....I could have joined in, as I often played there, but decided to carry on with my seva. Plenty of stories from those days :)

Hi Spencer, you wrote: "The mind creates illusions that is for sure.

No where is this more obvious than watching someone, caught up in their illusion of perfect truth, discounting everyone who believes differently than they do as wrong."

Yes, this describes Soamiji's Sar Bachan and RS theology perfectly, but how does it address any of the specific points I raised? It seems instead of realising that you fully & whole-heartedly follow & defend an organisation & theology that does precisely this, you are projecting onto little old me, a random, semi-anonymous person on a comments section of a blog with no organisation, belief, book or anything on any other level to "sell", this elitist mindset that is clearly and transparently laid out in RS theology? In other words, you seem somewhat confused?

Hi Jim & Joe - I think you're being somewhat unfair to David Lane re his association with RSSB and Gurinder, based on gossip and hearsay, and his visit to Beas or a few local satsangs. (though I agree he should make some sort of public information release!)

It is clear that, in context of his work for Oxford University Press and Proff. Juergensmeyer, and his recent postings, for example this brilliant, insightful essay on shabd yoga posted late last year:

http://www.integralworld.net/lane129.html

Or this posted to the RSS forum 4 days ago (I bought my copy from amazon uk yesterday!):

https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/radhasoamistudies/conversations/messages/263443

That his visit to Beas or whatever doesn't necessarily mean his views have really "changed" from what he has stated in the past, and continues to state in his public output.

Cheers!

[Marko]

Quote Manjit
That his visit to Beas or whatever doesn't necessarily mean his views have really "changed" from what he has stated in the past, and continues to state in his public output....

.....oh Manjit but it is the change and that of a big time! He sent me long mail report some time ago but he pleased me to not say and posted on forums so i will not. Didnt you contact him he said to me you do so.

[manjit]

Hi Marko!

You asked: ".....oh Manjit but it is the change and that of a big time! He sent me long mail report some time ago but he pleased me to not say and posted on forums so i will not. Didnt you contact him he said to me you do so."

Yes, I contacted him today requesting a public comment, and he very kindly & generously responded in great detail.

I believe my original comment very accurately describes his current position, and that is why I made the statement in the first place :)

His actions - for instance posting that Faqir Chand book a few days ago, should speak more loudly than his silence imo.

Take care & good night......Manjit :)

[manjit]

Re. the good Dr Lane, I will just add, and I don't think he would mind me mentioning this, but he does clearly state the following 3 books of his which "best summarise" his "viewpoints":

1. WHY I MEDITATE
2. THE GURU QUESTION
3. THE DOUBTING MEDITATOR

I will try and locate these tomorrow on his neuralsurfer website, but it would be nice if somebody could post the links to the pdfs.....Dave's ideas can then be discussed or critiqued or praised!

I do know, if they're anything at all like his "Shabd Yoga 4.0" article I linked above, they will be really informative & intelligent insights into RS and RS meditation...

G'nite, I have work tomorrow! :)

[Spencer Tepper]

This fascination with someone's view that once agreed with yours, looking for confirmation they still feel that way today.

Are they your Guru?

Do you need anyone else to tell you what to think?

I believe I may understand the mentality of some ex-ers.

They wanted someone to tell them what to think.

And they didn't get it in Sant Mat.

Now they accuse Satsangis of blind adherence, the thing they craved and didn't get.

And, sadly, seem to still be looking for.

Your only confirmation is going to come from inside you. Not a committee, but a guru, not even a spouse. Not even a friend. Can only come from you.

Just you.

[Spencer Tepper]

... Typo
"not a committee, not a guru, not even a spouse...."

[One Initiated]

Manjit,

It's quite possible it's the illusional world you're in.
because of the missing guidance of the Master.

Instead of blaming the Masters and RSSB,
had you been under Their Guidance,
you could have marvellously progressed higher and above,
than being stuck for so long in the Astral Circus.

Have you ever asked yourself the question that
why you are there where you are ? and why you can't proceed ?
Do you even see the possibility that your mind has played huge game on you.

In which you happen to believe that you know everything and even the origin
of all the inner experiences of others.

And you also know about others' fears - Amazing, I see ego is winning the game again.
When one is not even fully aware of their own fears, claims to know about others'.

Even to very funny extent that
you declare about the consciousness levels of the various Masters.

You've not yet responded to this question yet:
When you yourself claims to be in Astral,
and you understand the theory about Causal, Par-Brahm and Sachkhand,
then how do you explain the levels and details that which Master belongs to which Level ?

No wonder that the comments or commenters who counter your stand,
you find them ridiculous.
Because you actually don't have answers to the falsehood you are spreading.
And the only reason I see in these responses of yours is - Your Ego.
You feel that you are in Astral Ecstasy without bowing to any Master,
You've now started to think that you don't even need a Master
and that you're doing good on your own.

And that thinking extrapolated to make you even egoistic
to start blaming and cursing the Masters now.
Claiming that they are not even the Masters,
If they are not - what about the others' who have profound inner experiences with the Masters.
I remember reading (I don't know the link right now) an account of an Australian initiate of Babaji,
having met HIM inside and constantly under HIS blessing - that disciple has shared it all online
and actually a very beautiful account to read.

Will you really tag all the experiences of RSSB initiates as illusion and hallucination ?
and call your own Astral experiences as real ?
Is that really fair and sincere ?
I don't think so, Manjit, infact it's quite misleading for the new age young seekers.

Shouldn't you try to find the feet you can bow to ?
Especially since you have mentioned and believe that there Are/Were the Dayal Masters.
And it's always been said:
if not many, there will always be at least One present in the world.
And if you don't trust Babaji then why not someone else ?
So that you may progress to further heights and may benefit others too,
Why don't you explore and find your Dayal Master - and share with us all here as well!

[Arjuna]

@ Spencer - love you dude ! You really have killed it (that’s a groovy compliment).

Yes confimation comes from within not from others etc!! I will remember that so inspiring😀

That was a 🥊.

😀 have a good day

[Marko]

Hi Manjit, you should seen the first and fresh original letter of David...he is very polite but throug that politness one can also get to know that he (D) will keep somethings for himself.But i am ok with your expllanation too i just told my expirience with this situation.

[manjit]

Hi Marko - fair enough! :)

He made it quite clear - in a very long & detailed email - that his views haven't changed, he didn't actually meet Gurinder, that his attendance at Beas last year was related to his work etc etc. He also made clear those three books I listed state his "current views". Perhaps find the links, post them here, and we can discuss? :)

Hi Spencer,

You write, making numerous inferences & mind-reading-esque leaps of assumption, "This fascination with someone's view that once agreed with yours, looking for confirmation they still feel that way today.
Are they your Guru?
Do you need anyone else to tell you what to think?
I believe I may understand the mentality of some ex-ers.
They wanted someone to tell them what to think.
And they didn't get it in Sant Mat."

Well, you are right on ONE point - they DID want someone to tell them how they think.....BUT they DID get it in "Sant Mat", and that is evidenced every day in every way. To deny or not notice that takes staggering levels of self-deceit and self-delusion, imo. It really is without question!

What actually happened to some of them is, they started to realise that what "Sant Mat" (I am not fond of all neologisms!) was telling them to think, was actually utterly ridiculous and related in no way whatsoever to reality itself! So they searched for an alternative authority figure to guide them....

Yes, I too have noticed the propensity of satsangis to out-source all their intellectual, emotional, experiential even responsibility to somebody else; initially this is the guru, but when their minds told them these beliefs were naive, contradictory & incoherent, they immediately looked to another source to out-source their thinking to.

As I have mentioned on the RSS forum over the years, there was a distinct whiff of people who view David Lane as some sort of pseudo-guru figure. It is understandable, it is the same psychology of every RS satsangi, only it is placed within a different conceptual framework - David Lane is clever and honest enough to tell me what to think!

In regards your inference this kind of dynamic relates to me - absolutely laughable as that would be to anybody who even has the slightest understanding of me, and my interactions with Dave over the years - let me clarify a thing or two.

I first heard the rumours about Dave and his visit to Beas, and rumours of his "returning to the fold", around Oct last year. Several people have emailed me about it, offering to pass on what they knew, learn from David Lane by private email, or suggesting I email him myself directly.

I both declined the offer to hear the "full story", and did not email him - despite SEVERAL private emailers requesting I do so - in all that time, 8 odd months.

Yesterday I finally emailed him, based on the comments (and personal insults) that were being levelled at him. The content of my request by private email to Dave (whom I have had private email discussions years ago, and hundreds online) contained these words: "I really didn't want to disturb you privately, but both myself and quite a few others have made public requests on the RSS forum and CotC blog which have gone unanswered over several months (not sure if you even see them). I've received a couple of private emails saying they know the answer to my query and could tell me, or that I should email you directly and you would answer the question......but I have declined their offer & resisted emailing you privately because I feel I found out about you and your influential work in the public domain, like many others, and that I should also find out in the public domain, with all others!"

I also stated, later in the email: "I am sure a great many people will appreciate some sort of clarification on your experience?.......

Alternatively, as some have suggested to me in private, please could you share/explain a little to me in private email - knowing full well I would share it (or at least any parts not clearly private, or you specifically request I don't make public, I can be trusted 100% in that sense!) openly in online discussions (otherwise, best to say nothing)? 😝😉 "

David, in his very generous & thorough response, did not at any point state I should not make his reply public, as I clearly threatened to do so above :)

So, all in all, Spencer, your attempt at pop-pseudo-amateur-psychological profiling (and absurd defence that the need to be told what to think doesn't occur in RS! :-o) me and my motivations seems to be based on a somewhat fantastic level of ignorance of me?

Cheers!

[Jim Sutherland]

Hi Manjit,...you write to Marcho regarding Lane,...”He made it quite clear - in a very long & detailed email - that his views haven't changed, he didn't actually meet Gurinder, that his attendance at Beas last year was related to his work etc etc. He also made clear those three books I listed state his "current views". Perhaps find the links, post them here, and we can discuss? :)”

Yet, Marko said his email from Lane painted a very different picture. If Lane has not changed his views, than why did his friend, who is his Western Rep. tell me, when we were sitting beside each other in the Golf Cart on the way to Sat Sang last Oct. at the Dera, “ David Lane is now a Changed Man”? What changed? Do you think he now believes Gurinder Singh is GIHF, and RSSB is the only ligitimate RS Branch? He would need to convince Neal Tessler, i.e. Vegistew that RSSB is the only real deal. Another Chand Book is never going to appease most of us.

Brain Hines has never weighed in on Lane’s Change or no Change. He also must have his “ detailed” explanation from Lane regarding his Change or no Change.

So what gives? Unless Lane is telling every one he speaks to his same story, and every one is giving different interpretations of it, it sure appears to me that Lane MUST still be talking out of both sides of his mouth.

Did he go see Gurinder at Petaluma when he cane in April, or when he attends Satsangs, is that still because of his work?

Until Lane surfaces and states publically, if he has changed or not, he has not been honest with the public.

Jim Sutherland

[manjit]

Hi Jim - you recount the anecdotal recollection of a fully dyed-in-the-wool RSSB satsangi, a "rep" nonetheless, as some sort of body of critical evidence against Mr Lane? I can only ask, why?

You ask "Do you think he now believes Gurinder Singh is GIHF, and RSSB is the only ligitimate RS Branch? "

I think that every bit of Dave's recent media output, and his email to me, suggests this is absolutely not true in any sense, whatsoever.

I also hope you haven't lost awareness of the fact that over 20 years on RSS forum, he repeatedly, over & over again, stated he continued to meditate and felt deep love towards Charan, albeit whilst recognising his humanity?

But you can of course email him directly to find out? As I almost promised him I would reveal any response in public & he didn't even hint at keeping it private, here's part of the response:

"Intellectually, my views have not changed. I am still as skeptical as ever. You can probably see that in my latest writings as well, particularly the introduction to the new Faqir Chand book"

"So, I am still the old skeptical Dave who appreciated being treated so kindly regardless of how critical I may be."

There is much praise by Dave of how nicely RSSB staff treated him & his family, and his sweet remembrance of Charan, but these are not ideas incongruent with any of his previous comments over the decades....

Cheers!

Manjit

[manjit]

"You ask "Do you think he now believes Gurinder Singh is GIHF, and RSSB is the only ligitimate RS Branch? "

I think that every bit of Dave's recent media output, and his email to me, suggests this is absolutely not true in any sense, whatsoever."

Let's actually take another look at this.

Dave was impressed by his talk the Beas Dera secretary "since he seemed to agree on almost all points concerning Faqir Chand’s realizations" (also, very interestingly, Dave learnt his visit that Chand used to give satsang at Beas during Sawan's time....and to think some of the comments made about him here by wise RSSbers! :).

This comes back to this Gurinder's "Sant Mat 2.0, 3.0" etc Many of us have noticed that Gurinder seems to be saying things wildly contradictory to standard RS dogma and theology which has existed for a century, and that this very clear and transparent dissonance is causing confusion amongst his followers and observers.

For instance, posters here, old timers (really, is there anybody left in RS BUT old-timers, and those Indians born into the religion? Young people do not appear to find this path, theology and gurus as a viable spiritual path, nowadays? Perhaps because it's so darn silly? :), who have learnt their theology and dogma from Charan and RS books, are unable to reconcile coherently what their books say, ie. what they believe, and what their guru is actually saying.

I have heard Gurinder say on numerous occasions that RS and shabd yoga are NOT the only paths to "God", and that there are many equally VALID approaches (something I personally think is extremely commendable of him, and very decent....it almost hints at the possibility he does have SOME level of "realisation", at least :) - he even said this when asked about a specific different guru and path (the sudarshan kriya guy, perhaps?), as well as other "kundalini" gurus. I have heard this in several different Q&As.

You simply will never hear Gurinder repeat elitist claims about this path, a trait something he does not share with most if not all his predecessors. Which explains the confusion of RSSB apologists and defenders here.

Posters here, seemingly either unaware of Gurinder having said this, or ignoring it because they are unable to process the cognitive dissonance, will continue to repeat the elitist RS dogma that is written about in the books, whilst their very own guru will answer every single time he is asked "all paths are equally valid".

What to make of such a predicament?

[Jim Sutherland]

Hi Manjit,....we all, or most of us still meditate, for various reasons, related or not to RSSB, but still are using the Five Names Mantra. I still fo 2-3 hours a day. You also asked some o e if they ever meditated 2-1/2 hours at a sitting fir 40 days. I did exactly that, for SEVEN solid years, and posted my experience years ago to the forums, .

Do you think Lane’s attending Satsangs and going to Petaluma to see Gurinder was still because of his work, and because he is treated good by Satsangis and Sevadors while still retaining his critical views of Gurinder and Sant Mat in general is becsuse of his work?

His Rep. Vince Saverise is Lane’s old friend from way back, and is still Gurinder’s Proxy Initiator for the U.S. Western Region. Now why, would you not wonder why him telling me that Lane is a Changed man, right after Lane went to the Dera with his Wife and two sons do not have any important significance regarding Lane’s Change or no change?

Lane is a bigger Spinster than Obama was, with his unchanging changless changes! 😅

I think he has you as hypnotized as much as Gurinder has Spence and 777 hypnotized.

No doubt, David Lane is the best Spin Artist of Sant Mat I have ever read on the Internet.

I would not buy any of his Books, but I would pay to see a two hour public debate between Lane and Ishwar Puri, with Neil Tessler hosting the Debate and asked the questions for both to answer!!

Jim Sutherland

[manjit]

Jim! :) You write: "I think he has you as hypnotized"

This is a little bit of a strange comment.

I honestly feel you would be well served to read Spencer's comment about people feeling the need to be told what to think, for always seeking authority figures. It seems it is a terribly hard habit to shake and to be able stand on one's own feet.

You do not seem to be aware you are casting numerous aspersions on somebody based on nothing but hearsay from others and an apparent lack of deep understanding of what he's been saying online for decades, as well as his personal family and professional concerns?

Ultimately, my curiosity about Dave's personal journey is just that, curiosity. It really doesn't matter on any level, personally speaking, and I only contacted him to request a PUBLIC comment. His reply - which I'm sure he would send to anybody who actually bothers to contact him to find out rather than casting baseless aspersions - clarified what should have been obvious; nothing's changed. Which is probably why he's made no public comment, and continues to publish the same material he always has. I feel this has been blown out of all reasonable proportion by those who have a dog in this race, and unlike what Spencer insinuates, it's not me. Perhaps ask your "rep" friend?

PS - I cannot wait to read the intro to his new book on Chand's London satsangs!! (which you wouldn't buy - clearly being more knowledgeable and insightful than Chand, who meditated on shabd for hours a day for decades, was considered a guru by many of different faiths, and held satsang at Beas during the 1940s during Sawan's time - no need to listen to his final teachings Jim, you know enough already, you "Gun for Christ" you! ;)

[manjit]

Sorry Jim, you wrote "You also asked some o e if they ever meditated 2-1/2 hours at a sitting fir 40 days. I did exactly that, for SEVEN solid years"

Actually, One Initiated wrote that during his mentoring of Arjuna, I believe, I think it was a quote of Charan's?

I have a different opinion of this - I think this much meditation, if not done skillfully, will accomplish potentially nothing but the most vague, fleeting of semi-astral, hypnagogic imagery, and no real absorption in the "shabd" (ie., to the point it is "sucking up" and "out" the awareness of your body towards the top and "out" of your head. Ie, sounds can be heard, but they do not "pull" or drag us into their relative dimension or frequency of consciousness being). Vague, infrequent & unspectacular experiences I suspect are more the norm for people who lives their worldly lives as normal, but dedicate 2 1/2 hours a day to meditation every morning.

More realistically, "peak" experiences need to be generated by doing up to 12 hours meditation a day, with no diversions or distractions all day. This can create a "momentum" which can then, possibly, spill over into & fruition in 2 1/2 hours meditation a day. However, if you can hold the meditation posture without moving, swallowing, scratching etc, even subtly shifting one's position, for THREE HOURS, it is very possible your body will be FORCED into thinking it has fallen asleep, which will trigger the "unusual" state of consciousness that is "astral consciousness", or the realm where light can manifest as the "radiant form" of your image of deity. Or so the tantric claim (also made by Sawan) goes, anyway.

[Marko]

Manjit we can say a few words in private about that cause i respect Dave and will wait for online discussion till he comes here.
But as you see he answers everytime.
So Dear Jim as Manjit said send him letter and he will surely explain to you.

But for me i probably fit in Lane 4.0 shabd yoga cause i also admire Manjits exploration of consciousness and that of many aporoaches which at the end brings mystical wondering feeling.

[Spencer Tepper]

Tara wrote
"He's actually the one who controls everything, the board members are pawns. I know a gentleman who served on the board and his pet answer was " mauj " to everything Gurinder did. He finally quit, couldn't handle the lies."

"lies" is Tara's accusation, her judgement, not an actual listing of facts.

Tara wrote
"It has become a pseudo-spiritual juggernaut with a single-minded ambition to acquire as much property and land as possible."

Psuedo spiritual is a judgment. They are buying land and building centers for the Sangat. That's actually just an extension of the development of the Dera itself, creating accommodations for more of the Sangat.

Tara conflates this claiming this is pseudo-spiritual. That's an accusation that isn't actually grounded in fact. The fact that RSSB, as any organization, is growing its centers doesn't proof they are not spiritual . There is a logical connection actually with an organization's mission to spread its spiritual teachings and their efforts to grow. In fact the growth of the organizations centers may in fact be part of its mission to make the teachings more and more excessible. Tara's own invented rule "if you grow your centers you can't be spiritual" is irrational and falls apart under the faintest scrutiny. As she presents it, it appears to be groundless criticism.

Tara wrote
"
Besides, the RSSB management will ensure that they get the required mileage from this activity to maintain their charitable status with the taxmen, while countrywide, followers will drop their jaws in awe at the humility and love expressed by their Guru on this trip. "

The construction of new schools devastated by flood where no other relief workers was taken up by Satsangis us to the credit of the Satsangis.

Tara ignores this fact.

In an exchange she comments

" Poster: You didn't pay a dime for the boarding & lodging at the Dera..
Tara: Well, that was Charan Singh's idea, thank him for that. I wonder what Gurinder would have done !"

Tara fails to realize that no room and board is in fact Gurindar 's decision to continue and has been for decades. But even if he chose to charge a nominal fee to cover expenses that would be within the ethics of running an organization, even a spiritual one.

Her judgment comes from a preconceived belief and informs every innuendo and accusation without exception.

Tara also claims a connections to all sorts of hidden people....

"How do I know this ? A close family has a relative who works for Religare, and I'm good friends with people who are well connected with the ' inner circle ' members."

More telling is her history;

"FYI dude, I live in India too. ( My family members have been RS's through generations, though we are Sikhs by descent. )"

She was not brought to RS by her own free will, her consideration of the philosophy or her own internal motivation. That explains a lot about her attitude.

Finally, her writing style is that of a man." FYI dude... "

It is unlikely Tara is who she claims.

[Spencer Tepper]

Tara writes
"Unfortunately, the education level of the majority of the Sangat is so low that they buy into the RS BS."

This statement claims basically that the reason Satsangis believe is because they are stupid.

But if Tara is who he/she claims then she/he would know that among the spiritual organizations in India, Sant Mat is disproportionately populated with professionals with advanced degrees, and not like Tara, in finance, but physicians, scientists, psychologists, Professors.

Apparently with all of her/ his claimed contacts he/she hasn't spent any time with them and had no appreciation for the reasons they are in the path.

This is just a huge gap in her story credibility.

[One Initiated]

Dear Sister Jen,

You said: " just another impure human being with faults like all the rest of us".
That's totally false, Jen.

Baba Gurinder Singh Ji Maharaj is as pure as Satpurush, Anami and The Shabd.
And I am not that spiritually advanced and neither I am allowed to share the experiences.
But, I can tell you with all the honesty and sincerity that HE has shown me the glance of that purity,
which is beyond the explanation of words and there is no doubt left for that.
Life is very short, I wish in the presence of light, your views get corrected on time.
And you get best out of the remaining beautiful years.

Lots of love.

[G.S]

Manjit,

I'm only 26. You're around the same age as my brother and cousins who did seva every weekend in the early 90s with the boys. Whereabouts are you from? When did you leave the path?

I've heard the stories of Baba Ji playing football, I think he even got his 2 boys to play once.

Do you know Osho?

[Spencer Tepper]

Tara wrote
"I know more than twenty speakers. I've confronted them all about their spiritual " progress " and the standard answer is one of the following cop-outs : 01. " It is all HIS mauj, we can do nothing ! " ( BS ) 02. " We're all struggling souls ! " ( BS x 10X ) 03. " We have to experience it for ourselves ! " ( BS x 50X ) 04. " We must not share our spiritual progress with anyone ! " ( BS x 100X ) 05. " Who are we to judge, how do we know how far we are ? " ( BS x 200X )"

His/her statement that she/he knows these speakers is questionable. No one will share their experiences causally.

But having had friends in the Sangat, close friends, over time, over many years, as we support each other through life's events, these things are shared.

Tara might as all have asked a dozen professionals about their sex lives with their spouses. He/She would have gotten similar answers.

No one normally shares their intimacies spiritual or otherwise (Tom Hanks in Saving Private Ryan, "No, those things I don't share").

Those are personal treasures. And we are given protective shielding by the Master's injunction.

Given Tara's youthful rebellious pentient to hate on all things, she would likely have done so with any actual disclosure.

But in all cases her /his task was to build that for himself /herself within, with diligent focused practice. In only days, weeks and months evidence is there. But without sincere effort ten thousands days is merely one day repeated ten thousand times.

She /he should have submitted her difficulties in meditation to any of those speakers. Then she would have received a wealth she could have used. Wealth both within, and wealth of God advice.

The act of submission is also the act of intense focus and relinquishing our attachments to our own pride and concepts.

Tara was unable to do this. His/her false accusations are the bricks in the psychological wall she built between her objective mind and her own subjective, subconscious self.

[Arjuna]

@ One Iniatied - gosh that was beautiful your response to Jen.

Go go brother!! I wish I could have that experience soon.😀

Respect and love

[Spencer Tepper]

The issue of Faqir Chand is only that many see what they want to see, as a creation of their own mind. Much as Tara sees evil in every act of RS charity and benevolence.

It is the mind.

Getting beyond that, to see more objectively, in balance, calmly, is one of the many benefits of Meditation, conducted sincerely, diligently, regularly.

[manjit]

Marko: "But for me i probably fit in Lane 4.0 shabd yoga cause i also admire Manjits exploration of consciousness and that of many approaches which at the end brings mystical wondering feeling."

Thanks and indeed Marko! :)

What Lane is suggesting in that article is the only real coherent model that sufficiently explains the body of evidence. David writes @ http://www.integralworld.net/lane129.html :

"In shabd yoga, for instance, we can see that it has magical, mythical, and rational elements to it, but much depends on precisely how the practitioner herself views the process.....
...Yet, it is undoubtedly true that if one actually believes that the mantra has transcendent vitality (even if this is an unrecognized projection on her part), it helps in concentration. The same holds true if one concludes in a legalistic fashion that their respective guru is a genuine lineage holder and that whatever he gives out is authorized by a long line of previously enlightened mystics. Whether this is actually accurate or not is secondary to the disciple's conviction that it is. In both the magical and mythical understandings of mantras, it is the disciple (and not the words themselves) that is fueling the proceedings. The caveat here, though, is that if the meditator fully realizes that it is her attention (and not necessarily the guru/lineage in question) that is doing the actual “charging” of the mantra then the magical and mythical elements lose both their efficacy and their supposed transformative power. "

I would question this to the extent we know people, even from secular mindsets, can repeat mantras as simple as their own name, and still get absorbed into their "3rd eye" region and experience ecstasy or jhana.

I think it is one's sincerity or intent that provides the real "juice", not the form or conceptual content of our "magical, mythical or rational" beliefs. For example, Richard Rolle the 14th century Christian mystic, was never "initiated by a satguru" and only had christian theology as a conceptual framework for his beliefs. He repeated, devotedly, the Interior prayer of Jesus (or some such, I forget now as I read his book years ago), and due to this intense concentration, got caught up in traditional kundalini & shabd phenomena, becoming essentially a shabd yogi. His life and experiences, recounted in his "The Fire of Love" (available here, though I suspect the book is better: https://archive.org/stream/thefireofloveand00rolluoft/thefireofloveand00rolluoft_djvu.txt ) , I think are an excellent "case history" of somebody who "stumbles" onto "shabd" & "kundalini" to get some sense of what these phenomena are like outside of a well established dogma and cosmological framework. These are NATURAL human phenomena, not given to us by some outside source, but potential properties of our very human existence.

David also writes:

"All this phenomena can be interpreted on varying levels and herein lies the danger, since if one retains a magical/mythical purview then what arises is seen as ontologically real and thus independent of the disciple's own projective arc. Because of this the meditator mistakenly transfers power onto images which in themselves are nothing more than vaporous apparitions. The neophyte gets entrapped within his own hallucinatory world, never realizing that it occupied by phantasms of his own mind."

"Can shabd yoga be successfully practiced by a person who doesn't believe in Indian mystical theology? Yes, just as millions of people worldwide have benefitted from engaging hatha yoga regardless of whether they believe in kundalini, chakras, or Shiva. Understandably some long-time adherents may object to stripping down shabd yoga to its skeletal form since much of the philosophy that has evolved with it may be seen as a necessary component. However, because so much of shabd yoga has been encrusted with mystical musings the very simplicity of the practice has, ironically, been neglected by those who are its strongest advocates."

"To illustrate my thesis compactly, it may be stated that: shabd yoga 1.0 is magical; shabd yoga 2.0 is mythical; shabd yoga 3.0 is rational; and shabd yoga 4.0 is exploratory.

In this regard, shabd yoga, I suggest, may be better off if it could untangle itself from years of theological encrustations. As it is practiced today, there are far too many uninspected assumptions that detract the would-be meditator from the very simplicity of the technique: listening to the inner sound, seeing the inner light, and going within. Hopefully, after moving away from merely magical and mythical worldviews, we can fully take advantage of what our rationality unveils to us and begin anew in our explorations of that which lies beyond what we presently know and experience. "

Annnyways, all this chitter chatter has got me thinking about:

Afterlife Narratives.

We all know the RS narrative, as it has descended to us through Indian mystics and philosophers for millennia, via all sorts of older gnostic myth origins; That this earth is a terrible, evil, dark place, a mistake even, that humanity have been enslaved by a demiurge who controls this realm, and the sole purpose of the entire creation and existence is to "escape" this eternal hell of transmigration by finding the one true, rare & perfect guru who can lead us out of this "trap" to our "true home" where we will live eternally, individualistically, in perpetual bliss and ecstasy, whilst the "suckers" down here on earth continue in their ignorance and suffering.

We really should examine, what precisely is the source of these conceptions, and what are conceptions influenced by? Do they - the various assortment of "altered states of consciousness" and "visionary experiences" via a multitude of means which appeared to reinforce these concepts - perhaps, reflect more accurately the global unconsciousness of the troubled, dark times back then, rather than the ultimate nature of reality itself?

This is easily examined - if we review the more modern expressions of "inner experiences" and other assorted methods of receiving "afterlife narratives" from other-worldly or "paranormal" sources. What are we talking about? NDEs, mediums, channellers, entheogenic users, "past-life regressionist" hypnotists, meditators in various traditions, "alien abductees" etc etc etc. This list goes on.

So, what are these people - with perhaps NDEs being the most scientifically evidential body of evidence, more so than any meditators, for a more likely accurate representation of what happens at the point of death - saying is the ultimate nature of our reality and this cosmology?

Charan Singh - repeating concepts he had read about previously....and this is fact and can traced to older tantric texts (actually, quite a pattern amongst many RS gurus, repeating/parroting concepts they had read or heard from older tantric "kundalini" texts, or from new texts written by anonymous authors, such as Anurag Sagar.....the original version of many of these claims can be traced quite easily, for example Sawan saying a guru can see the inside karmas of a person as if looking through a pickle jar, or some such - I read this subsequently in an old tantric text, and it was clear he was just repeating the claim). One such concept Charan regurgitated from prior sources, was this idea death is as painful as pulling a cloth from a thorny bush, and Kirpal stated death was like facing a million death stings (except for his blessed initiates, of course!). This is the idea the withdrawing the "attention" from our body forcefully at death, despite all it's attachments etc, is extremely painful for those who haven't "practiced" this daily via shabd yoga meditation.

But what do ACTUAL NDErs say?:

I have spent several years obsessively reading their narratives (as well as those of mediums, past-life regressionists, channellers etc), and I can honestly say it seems that when Charan or Kirpal parrot these kind of fear-inducing claims, that there is NO evidence at all to suggest their claims are true, other than what they have read, and their personal visionary experiences within a deeply limiting and defining religious context.

The current narrative shared by almost ALL MODERN sources is that the entire creation, and our participation within it, are CHOICES we make, lovingly and willingly, and that there is no "forced" reincarnation, and that this is all "God's perfect design" for the universe. Basically a message that all is love, there is nothing to worry about, the "purpose" of life is to simple act and live as lovingly, non-judgementally & compassionately as possible, and that there is no "true" religion. This is the overwhelming narrative from multiple sources. Whether that is any more or less literally "true", or "hallucination", than the altered-states which gave rise to the negative, dreary, paranoid cosmologies of the medieval and beyond gnostic/RS cosmology, is up for debate. Personally, I think reality is far more mysterious and mind-bending than even narratives. However, what is undeniable, is that these current narratives are clearly more positive, life-affirming, healthy, optimistic, explanatory of all creation, than the paranoid myth of trying to escape reality via finding the only "Perfect Living Master" of the universe....

Some NDEr comments I found I posted at RSS, addressing the immediate aftermath of the death moment, in contrast to the claims of "pain of a million scorpion stings":

For the multitude of near-death experiencers who know they have left their bodies and received a glimpse of an afterlife, there is no amount of clinical explanation that will ever convince them otherwise. The following are testimonials from experiencers themselves about their conviction that their near-death experience was an out-of-body journey of life after death.

"As the two beings approached us, I could also feel the love flowing from them toward us. The complete joy they showed at seeing the Christ was unmistakable. Seeing these beings and feeling the joy, peace and happiness which swelled up from them made me feel that here was the place of all places, the top realm of all realms. The beings who inhabited it were full of love. This, I was and am convinced, is heaven." (Dr. George Ritchie)

"At 4:13 p.m., I was transported from the physical realm, the realm of the body, to a spiritual realm. I knew I was in another world - a world that is as real as this world is to anyone reading this." (Dr. Gerard Landry)

"Well, I felt myself leave my body. I just floated out of my physical form and I saw them cart my body away to the hospital. I went with it ... I wasn't frightened or anything like that because I was fine; and it was my body that was in trouble." (Peter Sellers)

"I felt as if I were coming loose from my body! While I believed that my body was me, I knew instinctively that if I separated from it, I'd be dead! My soul and body started separating again and continued to separate until I felt a short, sharp pain in my heart, which felt as if something had been torn loose. Then slowly and softly I rose out through the top of my head." (Arthur Yensen)

"I was aware that I, me, was on a journey and had left my body." (Harry Hone)

"I watched my spirit leave my body and release itself from this world of flesh. I could see myself traveling through a tunnel of light that was a freedom it is hard to describe in physical terms." (Sherry Gideon)

"My next memory was quite a scene in the hospital emergency room. It was the most unique experience of my earthly life. Unique, because I was observing my own body in the emergency room and all the activity going on, except that I was not in my body. I was above it all - looking down. I was feeling no pain." (David Goines)

"A massive load of compressed cardboard Carter was loading slipped out of control, slamming him against a steel pole. He remembers a sharp pain, collapsing, being in a black void, then finding himself floating in a prone position twelve feet above his crumpled body. He saw and heard people running around, yelling for an ambulance and saying, "Don't touch him, give him air." His body went from white to blue; there was no breath. The sight filled him with awe. "I'm here, my body is there. How did this happen?" Not understanding how he could suddenly be airborne, Carter Mills attempted to reenter his body." (Carter Mills)

"The decision to leave this world hung suspended in an extended moment of absolute quiet. Passionless, I watched my spirit leave my body as a feeling of "otherness" engulfed me. I felt a strange detachment from my physical body and the life I had created. I was no longer connected to a pitiful, suffering mass of flesh." (Linda Stewart)

"Immediately after the impact from falling forward onto the metal grating, I felt myself floating up, out of my body, and hovering above my body and all the people who were watching it, and who seemed paralyzed by shock and horror at what had happened. I think they pretty much assumed that I was dead." (Dr. Liz Dale's research)

Multi-colored icon. "I remember looking down and seeing my body three-dimensionally for the first time. And it was such a shock, because we never see ourselves except in a one-dimensional mirror reflection, or a photograph." (Dr. Liz Dale's research)

Multi-colored icon. "I was in a barn along with about 8 or 9 other people. It was starting to storm so we had a little tobacco we wanted to finish unloading. Before we got into the cars we had there, [the lightening bolt] came through a board in the side of the barn and got me. I felt myself falling but it didn't hurt. Then I noticed I was above myself looking down at me. My body was actually smoking." (Mr. Thermal)

"On the eighth day of this misery, I seemed to just float right up out of my body. So, I'm looking down at my body lying in the bed still as a corpse, and I said, "Oh, ****** I've died!!" I was basically unnerved by this. But in the next second, I thought to myself, "Hey, if I'm dead, who is thinking these thoughts??" (Skip Church)

"Suddenly I was out of my body, hovering by the ceiling." (Karen Brannon)

"Am I outside myself observing? I see my body and its pain. I look at my feet; they are pale and lifeless. My legs cannot move. My face is white and drawn." (Josiane Antonette)

"I found myself floating on the ceiling over the bed looking down at my unconscious body. I barely had time to realize the glorious strangeness of the situation - that I was me but not in my body - when I was joined by a radiant being bathed in a shimmering white glow." (Beverly Brodsky)

[One Initiated]

hi Manjit,

Everyone's experience is different though.
I know some experienced great inner experience
within the first week of their practice after being initiated.

by HIS grace, I received a vivid experience
at the time of The Initiation itself.

I think what Hazur really meant is for someone
who doesn't have any bent towards spirituality and starting afresh.

HE still gives me amazing experiences
whenever I attend HIS Satsangs.

I wrote another response to you but Brian's
recent spam settings changes is protecting publishing longer texts.

You've not yet answered my question:
When you claim to be in Astral,
how can you explain which Master belongs to which Level ?

This explains basically whatever you post about others' experience,
and also about the Masters - is just your vague thinking
and doesn't hold a real value.

You could only talk about your own experiences correctly.

[One Initiated]

Arjuna,

Brother, I am loving your enthusiasm,
If you'd relay all this mind power in your daily meditation,
I am very sure you'll start to receive the Amazing Grace.

Keep your trust on HIM.

Whosoever mentions incorrect things about the current Master,
is actually under illusions and games of mind.

[Arjuna]

@ One Initiated . My parents were initiated by the Great Master and passed away whilst I was young. My mother always said things that make sense to me now. You remind me her what she said.

I know mind is very hard to beat - Satan isn’t an easy pushover You can’t beat mind with mind! Many have tried to beat Satan by have tried as mind can not be trusted.

Wow I can’t believe I wrote the above- wonder where that came from.

I’m going to give it a huge shot in mediation and Master did help me once and it’s hard to tell you were I was - I was in a coma for 4 days and I recall him visiting me in some state I was in and he said “wake up” and other things. I feel ashamed I doubted him - I just hope he has not put my previous good deeds and thoughts of the Lord into the Red.

Thanks Brother and roll on Wednesday- england take on Croatia on the World Cup semi final! C’mon Englan 😀

[manjit]

Dear Spencer - I find your selective criticisms of Tara's numerous factually correct and CLEARLY well-informed comments predictably rather weak.

But more disconcertingly, I find both your & Jen's insinuation that "Tara" is not a woman, and deceptive about other matters too, mean-spirited and unwarranted.

As somebody who has intimately known Indian women since one gave birth to me, went to school with, worked with & dated what must be hundreds if not thousands of Indian women from both UK & India, to suggest confidently she is not a woman because she uses words like "dude" is utterly preposterous and totally ridiculous...factually speaking, as this is common parlance for modern Indian women from India. I am not sure what image of "Indian women" some posters may have here, no doubt some archaic submissive vision, but it is worth remembering both India & Pakistan have had fearless women leaders during extremely dangerous times, decades if not more before most western countries.

So instead of the irrelevant ad hominems, perhaps address the actual details of what she writes - which are clearly her opinions about FACTS, share them or not, but do you dispute any of the actual facts she shares? Your pedantic & selective criticisms of almost throw-away comments shows just how little you have in terms of an effective rebuttal, imo.

Dear One Initiated - you state: "Everyone's experience is different though.
I know some experienced great inner experience
within the first week of their practice after being initiated.
by HIS grace, I received a vivid experience
at the time of The Initiation itself."

Okay, fair enough. But so what? On the second day I saw Gurinder, I thought all the universe had changed into vibrating energy, and was flowing in and out of him.

I know many, many people who experienced "nothing" at initiation....I was a talker, and loved listening to peoples experiences, and I met hundreds during my time doing seva, visiting beas etc.

We also know complete fakes and charlatans can give experience of "light and sound" at initiation, as in that video I posted the other day, Holy Hell?

We also know that light and sound can be experienced in a scientific setting, like Dave outlines in his "Kirpal Statistic" work, where he "initiated" his pupils into sound and light.

Point is, Kirpal didn't say it may or it may not happen, he claimed that it WOULD happen, and that this was proof he was the "real" spiritual "satguru", and not Jagat or Charan.

That seems like a fairly reasonable, "Proof based" claim to make? What say you?

You write: "When you claim to be in Astral,
how can you explain which Master belongs to which Level ?"

No, no, no. You appear to be mistaken, quite profoundly so. It is YOU who "claims" I am "in Astral", not me?

I was flaffing around the astral before I reached my teens, really haven't been interested in it for more than 10 years. I suggest you have misunderstood what I have said?

And who is claiming which "Master belongs to which level"?

[Spencer Tepper]

Hi Manjit
You wrote
"Well, you are right on ONE point - they DID want someone to tell them how they think.....BUT they DID get it in "Sant Mat", and that is evidenced every day in every way. To deny or not notice that takes staggering levels of self-deceit and self-delusion, imo. It really is without question!"

Sant Mat teaches in every book and satsang that we must find our answers for ourself, within, from our own journey. Sant Mat only offers the method and some guideposts to look for.

Your view is reflective of the misconception I was writing about. You are falsely accusing Sant Mat of your own misunderstanding born of your own desire to claim ultimate truth just by listening to a teacher and closing your eyes for a moment.

Sant Mat doesn't hand that to you on a buscuit tray. You have to go within and journey the path.

Apparently you and some of the ex-ers missed that class. But open any Sant Mat book and it's right there in print.

You wrote
"What actually happened to some of them is, they started to realise that what "Sant Mat" (I am not fond of all neologisms!) was telling them to think, was actually utterly ridiculous and related in no way whatsoever to reality itself! So they searched for an alternative authority figure to guide them...."

See above. They realized it was rediculous to expect someone to hand them any truth they could believe without evidence. That's correct. But guess what? That's what Sant Mat was teaching all along! And because they misunderstood they failed to get that evidence on their own, and were unwilling to own that failure. Their pride forced them to say "that's your fault!" instead of own the fact that this was their own misunderstooding, born of the passion for a quick and final ultimate answer.

And every day they tried to meditate they expected the gates of heaven to open for them and were disappointed. Rinse and repeat, year in year out, decade after decade, zip, zero, nada.

The didn't let go of that, and how can you jump into the ocean holding onto the handrail on shore? Failure assured. But don't claim there is no ocean, or you aren't at the beach. The ocean is there, the beach is just a short walk from your room. Instructions are on the door. But you do have to take that walk.

But if you honestly look at the Sangat with an open mind, an open heart, you can see many, many swinming in that ocean having the time of their lives.

And if you listen carefully, you will hear the laughter of angels.

But instead the e - ers went looking for another guru. Classic case of projection.

The only truth you will accept is the truth you discover for yourself, and experience for yourself. Unfortunately that requires putting your ego aside for a while.

Until then you are just moving through belief systems. And so long as you blame the system instead of simply refining your own practice, you are just building the wall between your thinking conceptual brain and the rest of your own subconscious mind.

You are adding layers of mind, wrappings of mind, instead of gently peeling away those layers to expose the blinding light within.

Sorry to be so blunt, Manjit. The path is much much simpler than you depict.

Now some folks want to blame the next guru because he gave them false hope in the possibility of finding ultimate truth. Just another attractive and flattering wrapping.

Waste of time.

[manjit]

Spencer: "Sorry to be so blunt, Manjit. The path is much much simpler than you depict."

Indeed it is. Evidentially, it is believe whatever you want, and that's the "truth", even if contradicted by reality.

These are all convenient, vague, wishy-washy arguments which say absolutely nothing about the path, practice, or guru.

We've had decades of reading the clear, unambiguous claims in the books which led the vast majority of people to this religion. A clear focus on concepts, theology, dogma, duality etc of all sorts. And now it's the fault of all the believers of this nonsense, for believing it? Of course it is in some way! But in another, it is also a fault of those who peddle these concepts, like in Julian Johnson's Path of the Masters.

Again, lots of stories and claims etc. Lots of vague general sentimentality, but nothing to suggest RSSB & Gurinder are any more a viable, effective "spiritual path" than other "guru" or path out there. And that's being quite charitable, I find.

That's not so complicated, is it Spencer?

Re. comas and visits from radiant RS masters (I hope you have fully recovered Arjuna!), I remember a story of another friend of mine, who in a coma, was apparently visited by two different gurus, Gurinder (or Charan?) and a guru who was fatally shot in London UK, Guru Darshan Das. Two gurus, two different paths, yet both radiant forms came to visit him!

He recovered fully, and considered it evidence of both their divinities, despite their contradictory paths and teachings. (it was his mother who had the vision, if I recall)

[Arjuna]

@ Manjit - I recovered but that was 2 decades ago.

I can only tel you what I experienced that is all.

[Marko]

Beautiful post Manjit. But this quote of Charan.....Charan regurgitated from prior sources, was this idea death is as painful as pulling a cloth from a thorny bush......
....me: i think heard him say this phrase for how to approach mind and meditation that like you dont go and pull cloth from thorns at once but easily and steadily. Like with mind small and firm steps...but thats my memory

[Marko]

Manjit dud you get my mails?

[Dungeness]

Again, lots of stories and claims etc. Lots of vague general sentimentality, but nothing to suggest RSSB & Gurinder are any more a viable, effective "spiritual path" than other "guru" or path out there. And that's being quite charitable, I find.

Who's suggesting they are? Certainly not Gurinder. As Ishwar Puri
memorably states any path that leads you inward is valid.

[Jim Sutherland]

@Marko, .....I agree that Charan’s retelling Master’s teaching that gently removing a cheese cloth from a thorny bush, one thorn at a time, instead of giving it one big yank, will preseve the Cloth, and is compared to Surat Shabd Meditation removing the soul from the mind, one knot at a time, while withdrawing from the lower body to the Third Eye will preserve the soul.

That had, and still has, a great impact on me, and is why I still choose to meditate the same old way. Even after 30 years of doing the same thing, I believe I am still making new progress, and untying another knot almost daily. Also, the Meditation plows the field of plugged Chakras, opening up the channels for my unknotted soul to be much more active during Lucid dreaming while my physical body is resting, or sleeping. Soamibagh’s last Guru, Babuji, said that our soul, during our awakeful state, resides at the Heart Chakra, not at the Third Eye. So, Kirpal Singh was correct by saying we must rise above body consciousness in order to experience Shabd, which DOES reside at the Third Eye, never dropping below to Pind, i.e. lower body.

Now, if any brave seeker dares to force their knotted mind/soul out of their body with one big yank, as in the example of the Cheese Cloth stuck on the thorns, and are afraid to take Manjit's challege to do what he has tried, I can tell you another way to fo it with out drugs, or Plants.

Try hyperventilating, using Yogannanda’s Kriya Yogo So Ham Techique, but expedite the techique by rapid Pranayama until you start getting real dizzy and seeing lots of stars and hearing the buzzing. Then, as you are having trouble to remain standing, quickly drop in to the Fetal Crouching Bajun position we all were given at Initiation, and close your mouth tight, eyes closed, thumbs in both ears, and BLOW against your closed hands as hard as you can with out letting any Air escape, until you POP out of your body thru your Crown Chakra in the top of your head. You will fall to the ground or floor as a limp puppet doll, and your soul will be free from your mind and body.

How long you will stay out, and how far you will travel, or what you will see, will obviously be your own subjective experience,

But if you try it, be prepared for one heck of a Migrain Headache that may last for days!!

So, removing one knot at a time is much less painful and since we have Eternity to be successful, what’s the hurry? I hate pain.

@Manjit,.........I have an honest question for you. Being the honest truthfult man that you are, I expect your honest truthful answer.

Your answer must not include every thing you know now, that you have learned since you were of age to be initiated by Gurinder Singh in to RSSB.

I ask that you Astral Project back to age 25. You only know what you kew up to then.

My honest, unloaded question to you is,.....

If you had NEVER heard of David Lane, or had ever once stumbled on to his RSS Anti Guru Studies Forum, would you have again applied for Initiation in to RSSB from Gurinder Singh?

I belive that it was David Lane that met you at your Cross Road of accepting, or rejecting The Path of The Masters and altered your direction at your young age, and is why you now still are unable to accept that David Lane has returned to the Path that he convinced you and thousands of ofhers to reject, after Charan’ s Bulldozer Chain has tightened around his neck and yanked him back to the Path.

You should ask him in good faith, ..”..Dr. Lane, if you really love me, and have real honest concern for my soul, do you still advise me to steer clear of The Path of the Masters and to never seek to be initiated by ANY Sant Mat Master, including Gurinder Singh?

Or, do you advise me to continue on the Path of Plant and Drug experimentation to Liberation?”

Cherrs,
Jim

[manjit]

Hi Dungeness, you ask "Who's suggesting they are? Certainly not Gurinder. As Ishwar Puri
memorably states any path that leads you inward is valid."

Errrm, all the dozens of official RS books, and all previous gurus, and thousands of satsangs & tapes etc? Have you ever read the Sar Bachan? Have you ever heard a Gurinder satsang, and understood it, in punjabi? Did you notice the vast discrepancy in message between that and his English output? How do you reconcile the differences?

I understand that Gurinder and Ishwar may realise, in the 21st century in the western world, that nobody will buy these elitist claims of dogma anymore, and are savvy enough to adapt them to modern sensibilities, but that doesn't excuse the previous century of dogma, or actually explain away the dissonance, does it? Have I not made myself clear enough? Was it not me myself who suggested that what Gurinder says is dissonant with the ideology and dogma stated repeatedly & clearly in the books (and this is what draws the vast majority of satsangis to this path), and that this dissonance has not been sufficiently explained or even addressed, and that it is left to anonymous online posters to justify these inconsistencies & incoherencies, rather than some sort of official statement or book?

Hi Marko - you ask "Manjit dud you get my mails?" I did get one email, but don't call me dud!! :) Response sent....

you write: "But this quote of Charan.....Charan regurgitated from prior sources, was this idea death is as painful as pulling a cloth from a thorny bush......
....me: i think heard him say this phrase for how to approach mind and meditation that like you dont go and pull cloth from thorns at once but easily and steadily. Like with mind small and firm steps...but thats my memory"

You may well be right, Marko, I also go from a very old and faulty memory! We do know, for sure, Charan wrote this, which fully supports the exact meaning of that post I wrote:

“Q. What about the scorpions?

A. He has given an example to show that you should practice dying while living, because it is easier than the death you have to face at the time of death. At the time of death, the pain that you face is just like the pain of scorpions’ stings so keep that in mind. In order to avoid that pain, now bear this pain of meditation. He has just given this as an example to show generally how much pain we have to go through at the time of death. He says in order to avoid that, a little discomfort now is much better. So we shouldn’t mind this discomfort or pain”

Excerpt From: Maharaj Charan Singh. “Die to Live.

[Spence Tepper]

Hi Manjit

You wrote

"So instead of the irrelevant ad hominems, perhaps address the actual details of what she writes - which are clearly her opinions about FACTS, share them or not, but do you dispute any of the actual facts she shares? Your pedantic & selective criticisms of almost throw-away comments shows just how little you have in terms of an effective rebuttal, imo."

Apparently you missed some of the details of what I wrote. Here are four :

1.The fact that Tara accused Baba Ji of lying without listing those.

2.The fact that Tara accused Baba Ji of not being in the decision making role to keep Dera, and all the new centers, free. And then later claiming he makes all the key decisions. You can't have it both ways.

3.Ignoring the work of Ranbaxy in helping to save over a million lives as the major supplier to the Clinton Initiative at or below cost, stretching their company's capacity, drawing the ire of investors to the Singh brothers and costing them their careers.

4. Wrongly depicting belief in RS as the result of an uneducated Sangat, ignoring all the surgeons, physicians, scientists and other professionals throughout the world who are devotees from the highest levels of educated discernment. And it is these who make up the main share of donations, to help their brothers and sisters.

Ignoring most of that and depicting the rest as unbridled greed.
False. Tara's projections.

You wrote

"Again, lots of stories and claims etc. Lots of vague general sentimentality, but nothing to suggest RSSB & Gurinder are any more a viable, effective "spiritual path" than other "guru" or path out there. And that's being quite charitable, I find."

" Nothing to suggest... "
That sounds like a literature review, not practice.

No one found ultimate truth, including Satsangis, through reading books.

It is all a matter of practice. And that means following the formula, including the vows.

Literature review ad nauseum will never get you there. Without personal experience in this or any other field, your judgment will be based on limited information and therefore naive.

But any number of meditation practices will indeed produce good results if you actually follow the instructions. And only then, having those, will you be in a position to discriminate which is actually a better path; the path to take you to your next step.

Had you or Brian or Tera actually generated the spiritual experiences of returning through the regions repeatedly (as many Satsangis have done and are doing daily) under your control, you would be in a better position to judge the reality of that experience.

You could say it was your mind, or wishful thinking or anything you want to label it with.

But not having done the work, you have no objective basis to such claims.

Had you simply befriended any advanced Satsangis, at some point they would have shared their own experiences with you privately when they saw your struggles. That is the natural result of the intimacy of friendship with a Satsangi who cannot help themselves when it comes to helping their friend.

That you, Brian and Tara never experienced such friendships is truly tragic. But that is a tragedy that can be erased, dismissed as a teaching moment, simply by trying to connect in a real and legitimate way, not as a teacher, but a student, with your Satsangi brothers and sisters.

[manjit]

Jim asks "If you had NEVER heard of David Lane, or had ever once stumbled on to his RSS Anti Guru Studies Forum, would you have again applied for Initiation in to RSSB from Gurinder Singh?"

Well, Jim, this is a somewhat silly question in the vein of "if your mother was your aunt".....

You see, it isn't so much David Lane was there, or Chand was there......or even RSSB was there. All these things have always been available if we had the sincerity, honesty, integrity etc to face these issues head on.

When I was a young teen, way before I started following RSSB properly, written to Gurinder etc, I was ALREADY questioning my "inner visions" and experiences, contrasting them to what others experienced etc. I was always hyper-critical and looking for "real explanation". I have many stories about this.

Following Gurinder, there was always doubts and inconsistencies with the teachings, peoples experiences, Gurinder's behaviour etc.

In other words, no, I don't think I would have got initiated if I didn't come across David Lane because my destiny was not to settle for stories and fantasticial narratives, but to investigate the nature of reality more impartially and without bias and dogma loaded on my back.

Of course, some may think calmly pointing out the obvious is very heavy load on my back, and that I will "have to eat shit, and eat it soon", but I have no time or interest in the delusions and projections of others.

I think an issue you have to deal with, is the cult of personalities, out-sourcing responsibility to authority-figures, reclaiming your own destiny from the whims of others, perhaps?

That is why your recent experience with Gurinder was such a shock to your system; you had imagined him to be something other than he was.

Time to put away our fantasies & reclaim our own sovereignty - who cares what David Lane believes now or in the past? (even if he CLEARLY states in private email, or by his ongoing actions online, that nothing has changed!)

PS - your pranayamic hyperventilation (I have studied numerous breath-induced altered state practices, such as "Holotropic Breathwork", and even practiced some myself.....actually, the practice you write, extremely simplistic and unsophisticated as it is, was a popular kid's "trick" in the UK that went viral many decades ago, and it was called doing a "supernova" for those kids who wanted to get "high").......To compare the effects of that to the challenge I presented is fool-hardy; if, as is most likely, you will not experience much of any compelling spiritual note, the person may go away thinking they have passed the challenge and proven materialism and atheism is all there is.

There is no chance that will occur with 7g shrooms in a darkened room. Fail-safe. Or so my challenge goes.

But again, this is based on personal experience and quite a bit of knowledge of the subject. It takes some wisdom to realise the speculation of those who are ignorant - thoroughly so - of a subject, is entirely worthless :)

[Marko]

Manjit i did not call you dud. I wrote "did" you get my emails and is a typo i dont even know what dud means. I see the message now and see dud there..but sorry if i made a mistake.

[manjit]

Marko: "anjit i did not call you dud. I wrote "did" you get my emails and is a typo i dont even know what dud means. I see the message now and see dud there..but sorry if i made a mistake."

Hehe, no need to take it so seriously Marko! I know you meant "did", and I was just teasing you on your typo :)

Definition of dud:

"a thing that fails to work properly or is otherwise unsatisfactory or worthless."

Actually, you may have been right to call me that in the first place, even if by mistake :) Cheers!

[Marko]

Hahaha Manjit....yes i saw smiley now but before i translate everything to my language....uff.....but otherwise yeah in reality i am a joking guy as my nature and now when i see definition of dud... is really crazy and funny...haha..cheers

[manjit]

Things I have heard Gurinder say (where does that leave our precious dogma?):

1) There is no "kal".

2) There are no "inner regions"

3) The real aim of meditation is to get to that point where you just give up.

4) I do not come at death to take you.

5) There is no 4 lives promise, these are concepts.

6) All paths are equally valid (including specific kundalini yoga teachers)

7) Spirituality is not in my pants (that's a personal favourite, I may explain it another time, just couldn't resist posting it here - he really did say exactly these words!! :)

[Brian Hines]

777, what are you talking about? 20 years? No, it is has been four years since Tara last left comments on this blog in 2014. Get your facts straight.

[One Initiated]

hi Manjit,

Thanks for sharing your inner experiences.

So would you like to share where do you find yourself right now ?
Do you mean to say that you are in Causal or beyond right now ?
I highly doubt that. you are your own judge.

"And who is claiming which Master belongs to which level?"
You are, whenever you are insulting the Master Gurinder Singh Ji.

Aren't we already eating whenever we are insulting HIM ?
OR possibly you don't even realise that you are insulting HIM ?

Had you been under The Guidance,
Given you having such experiences at the tender age,
You'd have progressed tremendously.
But exactly at that time you were greatly tricked by the mind.
And the resultant is in front of all of us.

Jim asked a really valid question to you,
and that situation you could not assume in the first place,
and actually your answer could never be a correct one,
because it's not possible to revert the time and had you experience
the other situation which Jim proposed.

Just as what I asked earlier,
what if one fine day, you will realise
that all you've posted against the current Master,
happens to be false and actually your own misunderstanding,
under the influence of mind,
how easily would you be able to onboard and correct yourself ?

Wish you a lot of wisdom,
may you move in the correct directions sooner,
and get out of the grip of the mind.

[Arjuna]

@ Manjit - if One Initiated has mentored me to be a better man. He has done more than all the negative quotes which I have written or others and he has earned something far more precious in return.

All this debate is useless as Spencer said it has to be proven by oneself.

I respect you but can only say mind cannot know or touch something which is of another dimension or essence. So why try

Ps the mind is a construct yes of ones own making. Don’t take yourself too seriously - unless you or anyone can show me using mind what is God or not I will pay no head...

Also - scientists are now saying black holes may not exist - going of on a tangent - so when the finest minds know little - or can know little why debate with intellectual crap trap. Faith is stronger for better or worse - I believe if one has that God Himself will come to the rescue - even if one has been chasing shadows. Faith!!!

All the very best

[manjit]

Hi Arjuna! - it's genuinely beautiful you have found some support here on this forum, on your journey :)

However, your critique of using "mind" to "know or touch" the other "dimensions" may be a bit out of place on the comments section of a blog (one of the only 2 places worldwide where critical VIEWS of RS can be shared.......there are thousands of satsangs where one can go to mindlessly reinforce one's beliefs, no?), in a thread entitled "Devastating criticism of.....", where ALL we have are words & concepts to communicate with each other?

What I post is, clearly, not intended for everyone.....it has been clear for a while we have different interests or approaches to this subject....luckily, there is plenty of room in virtual space for those of differing views & interests :)

Hi One Initiated, you ask "Do you mean to say that you are in Causal or beyond right now ?
I highly doubt that. you are your own judge."

Actually, as Jim hinted at the other day and I have said numerous times on the RSS forum - and, to the best of my understanding also what Gurinder hints at, remarkably! (:-) - I believe we are multi-dimensional beings who are functioning on ALL THREE "levels of being simultaneously, causal & astral consciousness is manifest within our waking consciousness state. If you mean, more accurately, what states of consciousness have I been able to isolate and experience "within themself", I have experienced astral (dream), causal (full awareness during the deep sleep cycle, known as seeing "rigpa" or the "clear light" in tibetan buddhist tantras of sleep & dreaming) in full, glorious, hyper-alert-conscious states on repeated occassions decades ago. Through a variety of materialistic, dualistic "practices", I can probably re-enter these "states" of ISOLATED consciousness, quite easily within a few weeks.

A realisation "beyond" all this dualistic, ecstatic "tripping", is that all 3 states are present in our waking consciousness.

Beyond lies the "impersonal".

But, as Gurinder repeatedly hints at, it is a conceptual fantasy to imagine these parts of the spectrum of our conscious existence as if some sort of geo-spatial objective "regions" where ghosties and the such lurk.

Regarding your "doubt" of "where I am", who cares, really? ;)

You write: "Jim asked a really valid question to you, and that situation you could not assume in the first place, and actually your answer could never be a correct one, because it's not possible to revert the time and had you experience"

Jim asked "a really valid question", and within the same sentence, "your answer could never be the correct one, because it's not possible to revert....."

?! :-/ Whilst there is obvious confusion in this sentence, your appeal to Jim is noted :)

You ask "Just as what I asked earlier, what if one fine day, you will realise that all you've posted against the current Master, happens to be false and actually your own misunderstanding,
under the influence of mind, how easily would you be able to onboard and correct yourself ?"

Correct myself? Extremely easily, I have done it numerous times in the past. You appear to imagine my ego is inextricably connected and i-dentified with the concepts I present here?

The point is, regardless of what I think or feel at some future point, is there any actual valid & coherent response to any of the numerous questions I have asked in this and other threads? That is more interesting - and measurable in a public space like this - than what fantasy I may hold tomorrow! Are the comments I made valid today?

You see, all this defence of RSSB and Gurinder is profoundly generic - it can be applied as a mindless defence of ANY and EVERY eastern guru, cult and religion. Honestly, can nobody notice how bland and vacuous the defences have been, simple examples of generic apologist behaviour we have witnessed thousands of times from followers of thousands of gurus and religions?!

[manjit]

Arjuna - PS, you wrote " I believe if one has that God Himself will come to the rescue - even if one has been chasing shadows. Faith!!!"

Yes! I quite agree and beautifully stated!

Manjit

[Jim Sutherland]

@ Manjit,.....your Debating talent and Easten Metaphysicsl knowledge is teally wasted hete and at RSS, if what you day is teally true, i.e. that you have no mote inyetest in the zsa t Mat Path, what do ever, or Masters in general.

I challenged you in the padt, to bring your Debating skills and knowledge to Allan Chronshaw, who almost daily is in some one’s face to belittle their religion and fsith, no matter what they happen to be in to. I invited Chris Crooks over there, and he went a few rounds with Allan, until he saw what I see, and gave up.

I don’t only stir up Sant Mat Pots or Exer forums. I have been debating Allan for a dozen years or more, off and on. He not only vlsims his soul libed as the avtual Brother of Jesus, i.e. James the Just, but he also libed as Thomas Payne, and it was he, who aothored the Constitution of the United States, not Thomas Jefferson, as our History Books teach. He also days he was the Author of the original Gospel of the New Testament.

You say you read the Christian Bible in a couple of weeks as I recall, long ago, and claim to be Adept in the Bible.

The following is just one single Tant regarding Sant Mat that Allan emailed me. I have an Archeive of them. He archives his Rants in his zlibrary, but deltes my side of the ecvhsnge begote he puts them in his Library, so making him self the Authority.

“Shalom Jim:

I have copied your reply and questions out of your post into the Library into the below so I could answer it in the forums.

From my understanding, the objective of Sant Mat is to free the person from the wheel of reincarnation -- which of course is one of the objectives of Buddhism. Through meditation and being initiated by a Sant Mat master, the person is supposed to overcome the wheel of rebirth. In view of the fact that you have access to the Library, I have made many posts which reference the Seven Kingdoms and the fact that the lower three Kingdoms are an integral part of the Soul that are acting holographically independent of the Soul -- one of my latest posts on this subject is entitled Misconceptions Pertaining To Gnostics, Scriptures and Matter, and the fact that man as a transient fourth kingdom is as the breath of the Soul that enters the body which is comprised of the lower three kingdoms, in order to transform those lower kingdoms in order to both restore them to their higher spiritual opposites which are the upper three spiritual kingdoms, which will have the effect of bringing about the necessary transformative Wholeness. Thus, the objectives of Sant Mat and the Eastern Religions that embrace the concept of the actual soul entering into the body and enduring the cycles of reincarnation, is totally foreign to the original teachings of TheWay which is Gnostic. And while I have attempted to explain to you on virtually countless occasions that a purely Gnostic religion with the objective to Know Thyself -- and through the Knowledge of Self, only then is the seeker/disciple able to truly come to Know God -- has very little in common with the Eastern teachings which are attempting to escape the wheel of rebirth.

At it's core, the original teachings of TheWay would totally reject the doctrine of reincarnation as presented by the Eastern Religions. As I have attempted to explain countless times, in the same way that each Soul is as a single Neuron in the Mind of God, holographically each life that the Soul lives is as a single neuron in the Mind of the Soul which I often portray as the Soul Mind-Matrix -- and because what we call Time is a dimension of Mind, all the personalities that the Soul has lived as continue to live and dwell within the Mind of the Soul-Self -- which is our True-Self. Therefore, as explained throughout my writings -- as confirmed in the Gospel of Thomas -- the very Gnostic Original teachings of TheWay have virtually nothing in common with either Saint Mat or the Eastern religions which believe that the soul jumps from body to body until it escapes the wheel of rebirth.

It offends you that I question the ability of organic man to comprehend the higher reality of the Soul -- but, this is an important reality set forth in the Gospel teachings as explored in such subheadings in my writings as What Difference Does It Make. And throughout my writings I demonstrate that the limitations of the organic mind of man to comprehend his own higher Soul-Reality and the Inner Kingdom, is through the transformation of the lower three kingdoms and the reunification or marriage of opposites of the lower earthly and the upper heavenly/spiritual kingdoms within the individual. And while such things as meditation and chants and various Eastern rituals are good, they do not transform the lower three kingdoms which must be evolved to be reunited with the upper three kingdoms. As a soul-personality, I have no objective to escape the wheel of reincarnation -- and in view of the fact that I am very much as a single neuron in the Soul-Mind, I don't believe in reincarnation in the manner that Eastern religions do. So, once again, the two religious paths have nothing in common -- and I reject the basis of thinking upon which the Eastern Religions are based. And if we pose the question: Do I believe that Enlightened sources exist in the Eastern realm of religions? Yes, I do -- but the dogma that is promoted is little more than the "milk" of the Eastern Teachings intended for entry-level students. The mental-limitations imposed upon organic man is as real in the East, as it is in the West -- as explained at What Difference Does It Make. Which means that the whole dogma of escaping the wheel of reincarnation, is nothing more than Eastern "milk" designed for "babes" in Eastern teachings. That this "milk" is delivered to people by the equivalent of Eastern Billy Grahams, is the inescapable reality of the development of man where he must have teachers at every level of his slow advancement.

The Astral realms are merely the non-physical realms that surround the physical. In the same way that you have levels of ætheric bodies that surround your physical body -- so too does the earth have various ætheric realms that surround the physical. But thee ætheric realms are not the same as the Inward Journey to the Soul and the Kingdom. When a person passe from this life they find themselves in the ætheric where they can view their dead physical body. In the various ætheric levels there exist both earth-bound realms for people who are stuck and attached to the physical, as well as levels of instruction for those who must learn and accomplish what they failed to do while in physical life. These soul-personalities who pass from this life without achieving the next stage of birth, do not reincarnate or jump to a new body -- but rather, they must develop and be prepared to be reunited to their Soul and True-Self. That some people are able to gain some insight into this reality through the Near Death Experience where they are drawn into the presence of their Higher Soul-Self that is a Being of Light ( http://BeingOfLight.com ) -- or, others who are drawn into the astral and encounter relatives and people they have known while in the body -- is merely an insight into the possibility of life after the death of the body. That someone is able to initiate an Out Of Body Experience (OOBE) and jump into the astral realms, has absolutely nothing in common with the Inward Journy to the Soul -- and the Ultimate Journey to connect with the Logos.

I believe I have provided the basis of the majority of your questions regarding the differences between Sant Mat and the Original teachings of TheWay which are the embodiment of Pure Gnosticism and the Revelation of the Divine Manna of the Kingdom. The fact that you have great difficulty in comprehending the differences, is because you have embraced the non-Gnostic teachings of Sant Mat and other such paths. With respect to women: This is covered in The Esoteric Feminine Mystique which is part of http://SoulSelf.org .

With respect to the Key of Knowledge ( http://KeyOfKnowledge.org ): Why the scriptures are written as allegories that must be turned within one's own mind and being, is thoroughly explored in the article An Inconvenient Truth ( http://Ebionite.com/AnInconvenientTruth.htm ). And when rightly understood, the scriptures are a text book that prepares the mind of the seeker to escape what is portrayed as the "outer darkness" of mind and being -- which parallels the shadow-world of illusions of Plato's Cave ( http://OuterDarkness.Nazirene.org ). You will find the answers to your question fully explored in these links.

Allan ”

Let me know when you are looking for a REAL Intelectual debate? Allan is only a High School Grad., No College, and is a Viet Nam Vet. who was an Atheist all during the time he was serving in Viet Nam and Thailand. Or, Brian, or Lane might consider having a turn with Allan. He never shies away from any new comers looking to derail him.

Cheers,
Jim Sutherland

[Jim Sutherland]

I got timed out, so excuse the Typos. Just imagine between the lines, and you’ll understand what I said. Thanks.

Jim

[Dungeness]

Errrm, all the dozens of official RS books, and all previous gurus, and thousands of satsangs & tapes etc? Have you ever read the Sar Bachan? Have you ever heard a Gurinder satsang, and understood it, in punjabi? Did you notice the vast discrepancy in message between that and his English output? How do you reconcile the differences?

I plea abject ignorance of Punjabi but I have a strong
inkling any elitist claims were either taken out of context
or misunderstood.

Ishwar Puri, for instance repeats the message
Great Master gave him at the age of nine:

"His opening words at initiation were, "What I
have got is from my Master. It has worked for me.
I am giving to you this initiation and hope it will
work for you. If you find something better than this
at any time, go and take it. You do not need any more
permission. I give you permission in advance. If you
find something better, take it! Please do me one favor,
that when you get something better, you come back and
tell me so I will also go and take it." The Great Master's
words, I took them very seriously and I said it was my
duty now to search for something better."

I have no doubt that Great Master's words wouldn't generate
dissonance with true mystics of any lineage. How could it?
Mysticism doesn't promote elitism, or try to induce a cult-
like fear.

Bottom line. In the end, words don't matter. They're never
a substitue for actual experience in mysticism. They may
vary in different eras or contexts. But that's done for
maximum familiarity or to bridge gaps in understanding.

How would you encapsulate transcendent reality in a few
words or detail it in a book or in many volumes? It may
be best to just tell a simple story or cook up a metaphor
or two depending on the audience. In either case it
remains a hint only.