« Hobby Lobby ad in Oregonian calls for a Christian theocracy | Main | There's good reason to think we are zombies. I'm OK with that. »

July 03, 2018


Feed You can follow this conversation by subscribing to the comment feed for this post.

"And no, a big no, the Master is not a mirror. He is a mirage that is conjured up by the hallucination of one's own imagination. Perceive him as the ' Shabd Incarnate ' and you'll see him that way, perceive him as an ordinary human being and you'll begin to see him like one of us - it is all in the mind. "

Perceive him as corrupt and you will see him that way, too.
Then every facial expression, every gesture will appear filled with all that you hate.

Yes, the author saw the hallucination of her own imagination.

And the cause? Her own fear and guilt.

" However, the absence of fear and guilt has given me a renewed sense of freedom."

What did she fear? What was the cause of the guilt?

Projecting the problem onto someone else is not unusual. But it solves nothing. And it means judging the internal experiences of those she doesn't agree with as wrong, as hallucination.

When you must judge so many people you don't know as wrong, simply because they believe something you don't, it's a big arrow pointing back to oneself.

Too bad she missed the point of Sant Mat, which is the practice of meditation.

Then she might have something else to report.

Because you can't sit in meditation without letting go of fear and guilt. And blame placing, and accusation and hate.

Your mind will force you to deal with those things simply to be able to sit in that darkness, in that emptiness. And you will have to find a way to let them go. The reward is integration of the subconscious, pure bliss. But to get there the tyrannny of the objective mind must submit to the partnership of the subjective, the unconscious; the internal and hidden self.

So long as one has an axe to grind everyone who disagrees with them will be wrong, foolish, deluded.

And until you put down that beloved axe, which has now become your identity, your persona, you will see a thief under every bed, and every smile will appear forced, and every genuine offer of help will seem insincere.

And trust and happiness will be elusive.

A good therapist may help you sharpen your axe.

A better thrapist will help you see the enemy, the hallucination, the projection is within you.

Then setting aside your intractable dichotomy of Me right You wrong, you will see all sides, not just your side.

And in that silence witness the ineffable. Then you become thankful to all the flawed people who brought you, another flawed being, into an experience of the divine much more real and powerful than your self justifying depictions of other people. They weren't so bad after all. They were just people, flaws and all.

Meditation is the best means to bring the light that abolishes these shadows, these personal character judgments we make without any real tangible concrete evidence except gossip and judgments and inflations of petty things because we have not yet experienced the big things.

"I guess when you're obsessed with something, more often than not, anything about it is fairly easy to rationalize.."

That cuts both ways.

Disgruntled followers are not uncommon, the moral code of Sant-mat demands moral perfection. I don't think it is the path of casual householders. Radha Swami cosmology directly speaks about divine light and sound which is completely different from other religions in which the light and sound is allegorical. The path is pure and simple asceticism/monasticism presented as palatable pill to the householder. I think he travels in private jets bought by the money donated to the organization, nothing wrong in that. if he is diverting the money to some other organization in lieu of benefits to his children/family, that can be extremely dubious and against the tenets of sant mat.

This is how Brian works. Hi wants to attract Tara to him so he is writing this blog and also with Gurinder name on so the attraction plan is perfect. Independency day yea right...Gurinder always helped you attract readers Brian. But as usually you will now go and defend yourself like you always do. You rarely accepted critic. Oh Tara please come dont you see Brian got miserable to find you.

@ Spencer - love reading your responses - you kill it man lol

Wow Brian,

That was a very catchy title to the post,
however I got disappointed after reading first paragraph.

It could better be titled as Tara's Comments

I thought you only republish your old books.

Master invited Kareena Kapoor and shahid to his holiday home in India.

Lol. He permits people to live In sin now under his own roof.

Seriously guys and girls - leave this post do what you want - fuck, drink and party like there is no tomorrow. There is no inner existence -if any of you claim to have seen it - who was your drugs supplier looool.

@ Brian - your name will go down in history. You are the Snowden of this era. Excellent work and fuck what people say here.

This is an absolutely fantastic post, breath-taking, insightful, informative, laced throughout with truth etc.

In relation to RSSB, this is one of the most important posts or blog entries I've ever read.


Thank you Tara for sharing and Brian for compiling, this is a terrific seva.

Ps, you both understand the critical comments you will get here, and the emotionally defensive space they're coming from, and how utterly incoherent they are. They are an indication of just how important this blog post is!

Thank you very, very much.


. Hi Arjuna
You wrote
"There is no inner existence -if any of you claim to have seen it - who was your drugs supplier looool."

Everyone has an inner existence. It's called the subconscious. It holds influence over us. It pushes us to act bravely when we want to ignore those who need our help. It also tempts us to take what does not belong to us. It forces us to speak out against injustice at great personal cost. It fills us with fear so that we are terrorized by harmless shadows and remain silent amidst injustice, or worse, in fear side with tyrants.

Or it feeds us fear and anxiety so subtly we don't see how it is effecting us. Only that today we are a little less generous, a little less caring and sensitive to the plight of children. Today we have a little less enthusiasm, perhaps because of what we did yesterday but weren't aware of. It tells us when we have done wrong and feeds us guilt.

And sometimes it is right. At other times it is wrong.

It is our own puppet master. It makes us act even when we know our action is wrong. And yet it also pushes us to do the right thing at exactly the right moment.

How do we free ourselves of its tyranny? He do we understand the depths of its wisdom, our very conscience?

It is like an insect we find crawling in our home. We try to capture it on a piece of paper to free it, but it runs from our aid. In some ways it is blind. In others, all seeing.

Under its influence wars and the blood of innocents have been shed throughout human history. It endangers itself blindly.

Under its influence every great accomplishment that had no conceivable possibility or support became real and changed the world for the better.

How to help overcome this part of ourselves? How to learn from it?


Through meditation we learn more about what is inside us and integrate with those things we don't see today but which influence us.

Only then can we see, if not perfectly, .at least better.

And in place of anxiety and depression, regular periods of immeasurable ecstatic joy, peace, and harmony.

Arjuna, get to know your own inner drug dealer. They are also your counselor. Because no matter how hard you try to run from him, you cannot.

The mind is a neighborhood. Make it a brotherhood.

If anybody finds Tara please let me know i lost contact with her because of my broken computer years ago. Tara if you read this i miss you .. You are a great person and i enjoyed our conversation you need to hear my music...love.m

@ Spencer hello. I like you.

Are you initiated?????

Hi Arjuna

As I watched TV in my studio apartment there was Mt. St. Helen's erupting live on the news , to the shock of the world. And as the blowing clouds burst skyward and thunderous explosions roared I opened an invitation that had arrived in the mail. The Master had accepted me for initiation.

That was May 18th, 1980. I was 22 years old and a graduate student in Experimental Psychology, doing research on Meditation and anxiety.

My initiation took place in Riverside California in July, at the home of Roland DeVries.

July 17th, 1980 was my Independence Day!

@ Spencer - Maharaj Charan Singh Ji got of his chair in the stage and walked to the end of the stage with folded arms and looked down at me and smiled. I was holding my mothers hand when we’re went around for Darshan. I was 8.

Arh you are a student of the mind - we’ll in this world

@ Spencer - I have read all posts above - if Dera Beas RSSB is taking money of the poor and won’t let anyone investigate, do we have a world wide organisation who can go through their accounts.

That story about that couple asking questions about their funds and being man handled out and being told they have no faith and should not attend satsang is highly disturbing.

It pisses me right of rich people who steal from the poor. Who can investigate the RSSB cartel?

That way I get my peace on that I will know if he was real and then I’m sorry and if he isn’t - no worries. I will strive to be a just human unlike sevadars at beas.

That place must be investigated! Period!!!!


Your comment is as lame as this blog post.

Don't try to be over smart and try to fool the readers by pre-labelling that as great content
even before receiving any counter comments.

You also need to understand that you are not the lone astral walker in the world.

Appears that Brian didn't have anything meaningful to write or discuss today.

Probably the comments on this post are going to be more interesting
than the post per se,
except the above comment of yours,
which was just like putting water in the mud - making it appear even dirtier.

Brain, .....this is real powerful stuff. I obviousy have read many of Tara’s posts, over the years, when I checked in here, but have to confess, it was while reading thru different shades of glasses than before my first visit to the Dera Oct. 2017. Linking the Tara Posts all together, is like a Book in itself. And not to be taken lightly, or brushed away by Westerners who have never been exposed to the inner Circle of RSSB as Tara claims to have grown up in to.

Of course, we still have the Sant Mat Path, the Philosophy, the “ Science of the Soul” Techique of Meditation to try for our indvidual selves, to experience the Truth or Fraud of the Sant Mat Path.

Then, of course, we have the Unveiling of Guru Magic by Fakir Chand, exposing Inner Radiant Forms appearing to all of us who have witnessed them manifest.

So, where are we now?

I know where I am.

But what about young and old Seekers still on the fence? Some are still considering asking Gurinder for Initiation.

Others have already discarded him, regardless of huge the RSSB STAR Ship Sach Khand Express, has grown to be, but are still enticed by the Sant Mat Philosophy, so have moved on to other Gurus such as Dr. Ishwar Puri, Rajinder Singh, or any of the ofhers in other Sant Mat Branches.

But is Sant Mat Philosophy a Scam, and fradulant Cult over all, because of how the Spot light has been shined on Gurinder Singh Dhillon and his activites by disgruntled Ex-Sats like Tara who have posted here, in addition to the majority of others, with very little actual opposition from bonified, True Blue, Faithful, still convinced, Desciples of Gurinder Singh, and RSSB?

To me, only Professor David Lane can set the Record straight and silence the Taras, and other Ex-Sats, like Brian, even, as well as all of the other Charan Initiates, both Exers, and RSSB Old Times still loyal to Charan, but disillusioned by GSD and no longer involved with RSSB publically.

But David Lane is still actively involved with RSSB, attents Satsangs, and was seen attending the recent Petaluma California event that Gurinder Singh visited.

So, what is some one still on the fence, so to speak, suppose to believe, in order to make such as serious decision, as to ask Gurinder Singh for Initition or not?

Professor David Lane owes every one who has ever read his Articles, Books, and forum posts being critical of Gurinder Singh and RSSB over the last two decades, and come out of hiding, and honestly set the Record straight, about,....

WHY,...oh WHY sould every one ignore Tara’s and other’s negative past posts regarding GSD including yours, Dr. Lane, when you could confess why you have returned to the RSSB Sangat? ,

Jim Sutherland

A lion may appear at the mouth of the cave, protecting the treasure.

But the treasure, which is within you and nowhere else, is also within our grasp. When the lion roars out 'the treasure is in you' , and you refuse to acknowledge that, blaming the lion for being impolite, then of course that is a personal issue. The lion is doing its job.

I agree with Manjit that Tara was right on target. I didn't read her comments on this post because I didn't need to. I read them years ago. She was great. I am happy to be reminded of her.

Some comments here criticize Tara's understanding of the RS path. This is a rationalization to delegitimize her observations and opinion. Who better to comment on RS than someone who was a satsangi of long standing and grew up in a family of generations of Satsangis and spent much time at the Dera, etc.

It comes down to this.. If you have invested yourself emotionally with the Sant Mat path, it has you hook, line and sinker. It is your faith, the pillar upon which your life rests. You will rationalize away every detraction and critique. But to the outsider, or if your emotional investment in the path gets derailed, even if for only a moment, then all Tara says makes sense and becomes very clear.

As I expected, and exactly as Tara pointed out in many of her comments, commenters on this post who are RSSB True Believers are defending the indefensible behavior of guru Gurinder Singh and the altering of the RSSB organization into a money machine that has made the guru and his family super-rich.

Psychologists have a word for this: "motivated reasoning." Here's an excerpt from the Wikipedia article on this subject:
The processes of motivated reasoning are a type of inferred justification strategy which is used to mitigate cognitive dissonance. When people form and cling to false beliefs despite overwhelming evidence, the phenomenon is labeled "motivated reasoning". In other words, "rather than search rationally for information that either confirms or disconfirms a particular belief, people actually seek out information that confirms what they already believe".[2] This is "a form of implicit emotion regulation in which the brain converges on judgments that minimize negative and maximize positive affect states associated with threat to or attainment of motives".[3]
In other words, those who are motivated to continue believing in the lies and falsehoods of RSSB discount Tara's compelling descriptions of what she saw and heard as a RSSB insider. Tara herself was courageous enough to battle against her own initial motivated reasoning, which stemmed from her family's four generation history in RSSB, her desire that the RSSB teachings were true, and that Gurinder Singh Dhillon was the elevated spiritual being most of his disciples believe him to be.

With eloquence and honesty, in the comments I shared last night Tara describes how she saw through her mistaken beliefs and chose truth over falsehood.

I'd forgotten about most of Tara's comments, and I'm in charge of this blog. The comments were difficult to find, being scattered over many different posts over five years. So I decided to collect many of them into this blog post so readers of my blog could easily read them.

I find it interesting that so far no one is taking issue with the accuracy of what Tara said, Some commenters are just taking shots at Tara's commitment to meditation, failing to note that, as she reports in her writings, virtually every RSSB initiate she came in contact with during her up-close-and-personal years in Sant Mat reported that they also hadn't experienced the mystical knowledge that RSSB claims to deliver, but fails in doing so.

Sadly, this is the way of the world these days. Too often, truth-tellers are insulted, while those who spout falsehoods are praised. After fourteen years of speaking truth on this blog, I'm no longer surprised when religious true believers ignore facts in front of their eyes, preferring to keep their heads in the sand of dogmatism.

Here's a challenge for the RSSB defenders who frequent this blog: instead of attacking Tara personally, show that what she says in her comments is wrong. Sure, I realize that you won't be able to do this, so I'm confident that few, if any, will take me up on this challenge.

I'm just issuing it to make clear that what Tara says about the guru's highly questionable financial dealings, his lack of interest in charitable activities, the high-flying lifestyle of the guru and his family, the secrecy of RSSB, the lack of compassion for poor Indians, the guru's changing of supposedly unchangeable RSSB teachings, and so on, are uncomfortable truths that RSSB devotees with a head in the sand mentality are extremely reluctant to face directly.

Long ago I made my own commitment to tread the path of truth, no matter how difficult that path was. Like Tara, I'm glad i made that decision to leave the falsehoods of RSSB/Sant Mat and face reality head-on, rather than shying away from it. Hopefully Tara's well-said comments will encourage others to do the same.

I want to make another point. Every organization, and indeed every individual, looks different from the outside than it appears from the inside.

You check into a hotel. The lobby looks beautiful and the woman behind the desk is wonderfully polite. But the kitchen is unsanitary, the housekeeping staff aren't being paid even minimum wage, there's bed bugs in the mattresses, the concierge is getting kickbacks from local businesses.

RSSB is no exception. Tara, and to a lesser extent, me, were able to get to know guru Gurinder Singh and the RSSB organization from an inside perspective that is closed off to most people, including most RSSB initiates.

How Gurinder Singh Dhillon presents himself in public is much different than how he behaves in public. Tara describes this in considerable detail. And even though we all do this to some extent, HOW Gurinder Singh came across in private is what disturbed Tara greatly. She relates how she observed behavior by the guru and his close associates that shook her to the core, eventually leading her to deconvert from the teachings that she once held dear.

Tara showed a lot of courage in being able to do this. She cast light on the shadows of Gurinder Singh and the RSSB organization. Tara deserves much praise for this.

@ Brian - can you please recap on how Gurinder presents himself in private?please

Spencer wrote: "Yes, the author saw the hallucination of her own imagination.
And the cause? Her own fear and guilt.
"However, the absence of fear and guilt has given me a renewed sense of freedom."
What did she fear? What was the cause of the guilt?"

Hi Spencer!

I think you're being incredibly unfair by your misrepresentation (mind-reading?) of Tara here.

It is more than obvious Tara can speak for herself, and very eloquently so (when was the last time Tara posted here?!), but if I may speculate without going back and re-reading the full context of your selective quote - but have you considered the "fear" was about leaving the religion she had grown up in? And the "guilt" was actually cognitive dissonance and disappointment at her own self for blindly accepting or ignoring behaviour that was contradictory to what she knew RS and the "Satguru" are supposed to represent?

If that is the case, then that renders the rest of this post of yours irrelevant, if you see what I mean? As it is a tautology (logical fallacy) to claim her concerns are the cause of her concerns :)

In any case, I read Tara as an incredibly honest, intelligent, insightful, non-bitter, open-minded, unbiased (if anything, biased towards RSSB, hence the struggles she has had with her own conscience), eloquent & sincere.

That such a post can draw such obviously ridiculous, irrelevant and desperate comments like Tim's & One Initiated's I find incredibly revealing and utterly transparent in motivation.....fear. From posters who have claimed critics will "have to eat shit and eat it soon", who respond to copious, referenced quotes from the Sri Guru Granth Sahib and rare, old tantric scriptures about shabd that are not easily available to the public & have NEVER been shared on these forums & blogs, typed by hand, as "diaper-mouth" posts, when criticism of RSSB & Gurinder draws claims like "have you noticed how some posters have mental health issues", or some such, you be absolutely certain of one thing.

Fear has them gripped.

They are not ready to "hang by the gallows"; live without any illusory concept or form to support them, as Faqir Chand once said....


@ manjit. Hello and well said!

I think most including myself are beyond reason. Most remind me of Neville Chamberlain who after having a meeting with Hitler before WW2 cane back to England and waved a piece of paper as he got of the plane and said “ we have peace in Europe”. Lol. Total denial.

Even in the UK - if you have money you get top priority at Haynes. Don’t need to be in his inner circle to see that. Just need powers of deduction.

To be fair I like Spencer a lot but he does go on a bit too much and hence his message is lost.

Money is king ! It’s simples. Simple and simple

Hi Brian

We may have similar thinking but from different sides of experience.

Tara's testimony may be one sided and biased, so that facts may have been adjusted to fit her own sentiments.

The principle of motivated reasoning cuts both ways Brian. An objective review would have to include that possibility for all posters here including you, Tara, myself and others.

Just as you cannot deny the legitimacy of Spiritual experience you haven't witnessed, in the testimony of others who have, much as you try from your perspective, no legitimate commentary can do the same to Tara's testimony except to suggest it is off context and limited by her own judgments.

The path of mysticism has always been a personal relationship to God. Any organization that protects those teachings and provides a good teacher provides a service, even if, as a large organization, with a large membership, it is subject to human failings. Just like you, Tara, myself and others.

The expectation that all Satsangis are beyond such limitations is a fabrication, wishful thinking. It isn't even the teachings, since those are all geared to our personal practice. And about that Tara is mostly silent, as are you.

Before I requested initiation the Satsangi who brought me to the path told me "Spence. There are sevadars at Dera with guns."

Why guns if the Master is perfect?

That misunderstanding was cleared up even before I asked for initiation.

"What about the publications?"

"There is a bit of politics around those" Tommy taught me. And I soon realized that everyone still must live through their own character flaws.

Tommy also taught me "I've got a terrible ego. Don't expect the path to make you a different person. You will have to live through who you are, flaws and all. Changes are very gradual. Just figure some of your corners will get sanded down a bit....Don't trust Satsangis just because they are Satsangis. There are thieves in Satsang. Just like the rest of the world. When you go to Satsang, you will need to filter what you hear. Satsangis always give their own take, but that is limited to their own progress... You must use your own judgment, and remember the path is Meditation. Meditation. Meditation. And building the atmosphere to supporting that. "

It is surprising to read what people write here as if these simple truths flew over their heads in favor of their own magical thinking about Sant Mat. Which, having not seen reality they blame Sant Mat for!

I've had the internal experiences I wrote of, but I also had, perhaps because of them, a completely different understanding of the people in the organization, because I see all of us working through our human limitations.

And some of the Sevadars are indeed models of ego. But if you look carefully, some of them are models of humility and deep spirituality. Simply to glance at them is a moving experience, heart rending, inspiring. To watch those people standing silently at the door, or sweeping floors, to hear even two words from their lips, that is all Dera inside one human being. And there are many of these.

But that Tara may feel she is revealing some hidden truth, and that everyone around her is blind to it, or that all of those of faith are acting selfishly or ignorantly, in her view, is most certainly a perspective we honor, as her report. But we are saddened by the self-imposed poverty her mind lives in, by denying that same respect to others who feel differently.

To think she suffered alone in that perspective, and perhaps still does today, a life without spirituality (the kind that sees spirit In others) without an older sister in the sangat who could say "Yes, some of these people have gotten themselves into nice positions and are proud of it. Just have to ignore some of that. Even they know they are damaged goods. But we've all got to do our duty even with this ego and these character flaws each of us carries. "

Inner truths world be more valuable to seekers of spirituality than this sort of gossip.

To deny or dismiss the legitimacy of meditation and spirituality as in fact Sant Mat and marginalize it in favor a discussion of parsonalities is an immediate false depiction of the purpose of the path.

It is natural for family members of one faith to be involved in that organization, over time. It is natural for you and others doing Seva, to have unspoken roles and expectations for rewarding friendships and personal relationships within any organization you spend your precious time.

But it doesn't always work out that way. Sometimes we are treated roughly, our pride is hurt, and we may lash out at others.

Our doing so may or may not be justified. But should we inflate that into a conspiracy? And should you encourage inflating it further?

But the fact that it is off topic and paints a misleading straw man (that every member of that organization, including its leader is "supposed" to be perfect and omniscient, and perfectly kind and benevolent to our eyes, from our position, and towards us) is almost childlike in its native and seems to me a terrible avoidance of the treasures within us.

Treasures the leader of that organization keeps trying to point to day and night, year in, year out.

So no, we do not deny Tara's experience. We question her negative judgments of those who do not believe as she does. We question your denial of testimonies you would rather not believe.

And we point out this is all a distraction from meditation, spirituality, and our personal progress into eternal (inner) truth.

Brian if you find Tara let her know i am searching for her also.
Tara as Manjit says is honest to the core and very intelligent brave person.
Manjit did you also had private mails with her?

Spencer, it is highly misleading to equate a True Believer form of motivated reasoning with Tara's deconversion from RSSB and Sant Mat.

As Tara repeatedly says, at first she was highly motivated to accept the RSSB teachings and get initiation from Gurinder Singh. After she was initiated she did her best to be a good disciple and not question things.

But as time went on, Tara had the wisdom and courage to reassess her initial motivation. She observed. She questioned. She saw what went on with the guru and his closest associates. She resisted her initial motivations and embraced better ones: a motivation to be truthful, honest, compassionate, charitable, loving.

I resonated with Tara's comments because I went though the same sort of struggle. For 35 years I pushed away my doubts about the veracity of the RSSB teachings because I wanted to believe in them so much. It was very difficult to accept my experience of their falsity, and how the guru wasn't really God in Human Form as the RSSB teachings state.

It is easy to believe in religion. It is much more difficult to pull away from false dogma and see reality as it is, not as how we'd like it to be.

The idea that David Lane will ever step up and take responsibility for the confusion he has caused by speaking out of both sides of his mouth...or is it saying one thing and doing another...is pretty laughable. The good Catholic boy that he is he likes to hedge his bets, personally and professionally, He refuses to admit to any reality other than his own little grey cells but likes to hang out with Gurinder, the leader of a powerful and wealthy religious sect that spouts something entirely different than that. That tells you all you need to know about Mr. Lane. Perhaps like attracts like.

Hi Brian

You wrote

"Spencer, it is highly misleading to equate a True Believer form of motivated reasoning with Tara's deconversion from RSSB and Sant Mat."

You may have misunderstood. Motivated reasoning, or simply "justification" can twist our reasoning to defend any position, but specifically the position we happen to hold. That includes you, Tara, and me.

But this very human bias becomes most salient when the narrator cannot find a single reliable witness to the opposing view whom they respect as legitimate in their perspective. As Tara was unable to do.

She does acknowledge her lack of progress in meditation and I think that helps explain her point of view.

Why would anyone stay with the path long if it didn't prove itself in one's own practice?

That being so for Tara, her arguments make sense, in the absence of any reliable spiritual understanding grounded in her daily meditation experience. Pretty basic.

Then there is the second clue to motivated reasoning and that is when the narrator perceives no one else has greater knowledge about the subject than themselves. It's not only a lonely position, but precarious to good discrimination and understanding.

Third, the criticism of all others as less ethical or moral, if not purposefully than out of sheer ignorance and gullibility, then oneself.

Fourth the interpretation of normal human failings as worse when held by those of different beliefs.

These four indicators motivated reasoning, are all evident in Tara's narrative.

Spencer, I'm amazed at your lack of self-understanding. Also, at your lack of understanding of Tara. Have you read all 27,000 words of her comments? i have. Several times. She says that she speaks only of what she actually observed, or what other trusted RSSB insiders have observed.

By contrast, are you a RSSB insider? Have you socialized with Charan Singh and Gurinder Singh? Are you a member of a Sikh family that has four generations of RSSB initiates? Have you personal experience of financial dealings involving Gurinder Singh, RSSB, and the billionaire Singh brothers?

I'm pretty sure I know the answers to these questions. Tara can say "yes" to them. I'm virtually certain that you can't. Yet you claim to know Tara's "spiritual understanding," which quite obviously you consider to be inferior to yours.

We all have blind spots. Yours, to speak frankly, is gigantic. You've become a RSSB defender in much the same way Trump supporters have. Before Trump, there were certain norms that were generally agreed presidents should adhere to, to enhance the public good and trust in government. After Trump was elected, those who uncritically favor him started to say, "Whatever a president does, that's the new norm."

So now it is OK for a president to lie, insult individuals and businesses on Twitter, have a proven history of affairs while married, and such. Similarly, people like you -- but not me or Tara -- have come to accept that whatever Gurinder Singh does is OK, because he is the RSSB guru, and RSSB gurus can do no wrong.

Actually, they can. I challenged you to show that Tara's comments are factually wrong, that somehow they give a mistaken impression of RSSB and Gurinder Singh. You haven't done that, because you can't do that. Tara knows many things about Gurinder Singh and RSSB that you don't know, so your only resort is to judge her spiritual understanding, which, because she has a different view of spirituality than you do, you consider to be inferior to yours.

Tara was humble. Tara came to see things as they are, not as she wanted them to be. This takes a lot of courage. I admire her. Her comments show that she was a deeply spiritual person, regardless of your mistaken view of her.

@ Spencer - Brian has floored you with that last blog. The ref is counting and the towel is going in.

Arjuna, regarding how Gurinder Singh presents himself in private, I've only spoken with him about book projects. His tone was polite, businesslike, to the point. I didn't come away feeling like there was anything special about him, mystically or spiritually. I simply felt like I was talking with the CEO of an organization who was handling things competently.

Tara's comments contain information about how she viewed Gurinder Singh in social settings where he was speaking less formally.

@ Brian - top man and thanks for sharing.

Define irony? He called me “cheat” once at Haynes whilst playing soccer. Question why? I’ve never committed adultery etc.

It was the last time I saw him

Can anyone verify that Tara is a female. She sounds very much like a male, to me anyway, not at all like the gentle, feminine Indian women satsangis that I have met. Also, sounds so very focussed on the wealth issue. Just something not right about this. Jealousy on her part?

What does it matter anyway, Sant Mat has become a religion and probably lost its true spiritual connection since the teachings of Sawan Singh. I am still sticking to the principles of being vegetarian, no alcohol or mind altering drugs, living a moral lifestyle and this works for me and I'm grateful that I was once a devoted satsangi and now am more independent on my own path.

I'm not a True Believer any more and also not full of anger, hate or envy either! If you feel like you've been misled it was actually your own fault, can't blame anyone else but yourself and don't forget that the very poor in India find comfort from this path and its just a religion anyway like any other on this planet and most of them are fake. The world is very divisive now and I refuse to take sides. Everyone should be their own guru.


I'm so old fashioned in my thinking that maybe someone who is a male is pretending to be a female on line because (in the old days) females were treated differently, well in my experience anyway.

Just remembered about the gender bender social activism taking place nowadays. Oops.

Jen, several times in Tara's comments she says she's a woman. I don't believe I shared those comments in this post, but I distinctly remember them. Even better than remembering... here's one of them:
Nobody, A small clarification, bear with me... I simply wanted to confirm to you that I am a woman. No " BS " about any feminist leanings in my mind... :) Again, you said " If you want to treat me like an idiot, no problem. " I did not ! My apologies if at any point I came across rude. I mean it. The " blokes " I was referring to are the RSSB management, and the senior RS representatives. They go through this site every now and then to see what we're ( I mean the ex-ers ) are up to. That is all. Good day !

Thanks Brian, I really don't want to hurt anyone's feelings. Its like stepping on egg shells sometimes in this modern world.

I find this interesting: "The " blokes " I was referring to are the RSSB management, and the senior RS representatives. They go through this site every now and then to see what we're ( I mean the ex-ers ) are up to." ... So the RSSB management are keeping an eye on this website!

Re Tara

I noticed you asked to be in contact with her the other day Brian? Did you make contact? I presume so - in order to get her OK to get all the above info sorted and posted? I wondered why she no longer posted on this blog as I found her comments really interesting and helpful. I hope she is OK

Best wishes

Tim, no, I haven't been able to make contact with Tara. Regarding her comments, I figured that since they have been publicly available on my blog since Tara posted them, it was fine to assemble them into a blog post where they would be more visible.

I'm really the only person who could do this, since from what I can tell, Google is much better at assimilating my blog posts into its search engine results than it is with assimilating comments. So Tara's comments went into kind of a "nether world" where they were available to be read if someone found a post that she commented on and clicked on the comment link, but not otherwise.

Like you, I also hope Tara is OK. I've sent several emails to the last address I had for her, but haven't gotten a response. Hopefully Tara has simply decided to take a break from social media, and commenting on blogs. I really enjoyed her witty, intelligent, and informed comments. What dismays me is that someone like her would worry about the consequences of being "outed" as no longer believing in the religious philosophy she used to embrace.

It's a sad state of affairs, in India or elsewhere, when people worry about offending religious sensibilities. The way I see it, religious people aren't at all shy about communicating their love for God, Allah, Krishna, a guru, or whatever. So non-religious people should be just as free to express their secular beliefs. Unfortunately, because most people in most societies are religious, the cultural cards are stacked in favor of believers.

Hi Brian:

You believe Tara is stating ultimate truth about RSSB. Could that be in part because you agree with her views?

And more to the point, her observations match your experience?

That's a normal human thing to do. Agree with those, trust those who agree with you.

I do not doubt her narrative is a clear statement of her perspective, which I honor.

I don't think she wrote anything she didn't believe in.

But hers is not the only honorable perspective.

Her critique of spirituality is so entirely absent that it raises questions.

If you read Manjit's comments, while we have different views, he is entrenched, down to the cellular level, in spirituality.

After all, what is Sant Mat if not the practice of Meditation?

Any view that misses, minimizes, marginalizes these things away as if they are inconsequential is not a complete view. But if you do minimalize these things, what do you have left? An organization of human beings with human flaws.

It's almost a self-fulfilling conclusion, and circular motivated reasoning.

Her lack of contact with anyone who has ever had any inner experiences that she honored raises questions. Perhaps she has had this contact and merely dismissed it.

But in all those 27,000 words about Sant Mat, it is a notable absence. And when she does discuss inner experience, she discounts it entirely. Why then stay in an organization specifically dedicated to developing spirituality if you no longer believe in it?

And if you don't believe, why blame anyone else? It's no one's fault. It's not her fault.

It's her experience, Brian. And there is nothing wrong with that, unless you use it to indict others. Then you must meet the higher standard for ultimate truth.

RE: her lack of spiritual experience, please read those 27,000 words again and you will find this is her own admission, not my interpolation.

Spirituality is a very sensitive subject and we should learn to honor all perspectives, outer and internal, understanding this is someone's testimony from their view.

When you try to raise this into an indictment, you elevate the standard for truth way above what you have here.

Tara did a good job explaining her perspective until she started making editorial comments about others. Those projections and opinions don't actually meet the ultimate truth test. It does meet the personal truth test.

I'm pretty sure reading your book you understand the difference.

Most people have thought about death and its implication of eternal oblivion, annihilation of self consciousness and possibly of consciousness itself. Nothing. Zip. Nada. Forever. Pretty scary. Most people find a way to suppress or ignore this fear via work, family, hobbies, religion and everything else people do.

I was very relieved when I discovered Sant Mat and its promise of life after death with the perfect master in spiritual regions of consciousness and ultimately with God itself. Somehow Sant Mat seemed different to me than other religions like Christianity. But it isn't. It is a faith based religion. No satsangi I have ever known has verified to me their personal experience of the truth of Sant Mat. That the inner regions exist as described and that the master is indeed God.

Can a satsangi honestly verify right here and now that they have been washed clean of their karmic load in Mansorovar, traversed Bank Nal and have merged in Sahaj Dip or even witnessed dweeps of countless exhalted hansas sipping the nectar of shabd in Daswan Dwar? Anyone?

It's just faith. Ya gotta believe in something or you just shrivel up in despair or even abject terror. Right? Go immerse yourself in the whirl of life, endeavors, society to evade this reality knowing in the end you will have to face it. Alone.

It's a numbing feeling to know you have been duped. That you once again have to face that eternal mystery of death with no answers and little hope. Damn! The truth hurts. No more womb of security. Just the yawning maw of the infinite abyss. The unknown. Can you let yourself go in the face of this? Can you surrender to the void? Maybe in doing that you will see that what you were clinging to was an illusion. Never there in the first place. That all along you were free?

So, naturally once you buy into a faith or religion you're going to feel pretty good. Certainly you will dig in your heels hard and resist when someone starts shaking the foundations of this belief. I think this is what is happening here and what it is is exactly clear.

Spencer, you are ignoring the main thrust of Tara's 27,000 words. Try reading her comments again, because your RSSB-loving brain is missing what she emphasized over and over.

(1) Guru Gurinder Singh has become vastly rich during his stint as the RSSB leader, and not in a straightforward, ethical way.

(2) Those who know Gurinder Singh personally, as Tara did, find him to have personal flaws, as we all do.

(3) Under Gurinder Singh's leadership the charitable activities of RSSB have been cut back severely.

(4) Gurinder Singh is promulgating different teachings to Westerners and Easterners/Indians, in an attempt to mass market RSSB.

There's more to Tara's comments than this, but I've hit some key themes. Yet for some reason you keep harping on Tara's meditation life, which wasn't a big concern for her, though it is for you. I'm getting the impression that either you haven't read Tara's comments, or your mind is unable to comprehend what she wrote.

Tucson you wrote
"Can a satsangi honestly verify right here and now that they have been washed clean of their karmic load in Mansorovar, traversed Bank Nal and have merged in Sahaj Dip or even witnessed dweeps of countless exhalted hansas sipping the nectar of shabd in Daswan Dwar? Anyone?"

Yes, part of daily practice includes some of those places, and at a few times in my life the entire trip.

But it is impossible for you to understand or believe it. I am taken there, not under my own power. And I'm learning to go there under less dramatic circumstances more reliably with my best Friend.

Help came from older Satsangis I could share this with, older brothers and sisters who helped me figure out how to live with that. Because they had also been there.

It isn't the end of my karma, sadly. Still working through all those limitations. My Master has me burning Sinchit most of the time. I'm cleaning the stables of Aegis every day both in meditation and in my Pralabh.

But for some of those two and a half hours most days I'm free. It's amazing.

My only advice to you is to associate with Satsangis, share your concerns. If He wills it you will get the same Grace and find that compassion you seek in an elder brother who can help.

Faith carries you through the dark periods. There are dark days also, weeks, where I sit with Maharaji in that place of light but go nowhere. It's all good.

There, Tucson, you may carry on with your doubt. But one voice in the wilderness said 'yes I've been there.'

The company you keep is my only advice.

Spencer, you really have drunk the RSSB kool-aid. You're actually believing the fantasy you've conjured up in your own mind. My hope is that you'll copy down your comments and re-read them in a few years, or decades, when you've come to your senses. Eventually the truth will win out, because it always does. It just can take time, when dogma has infected someone's mind to a great extent. Best wishes for returning to reality one of these days.

Hi Brian

You wrote
"Yet for some reason you keep harping on Tara's meditation life, which wasn't a big concern for her, though it is for you."

Brian, not her meditation life, but her own spiritual philosophy and efforts at the practice of meditation.

That's the entire point of Sant Mat.

This is what is the primary content of Satsang.

Master's wealth, his relatives' business dealings are not the reasons people go to Satsang, nor is that what they get from Satsang.

Apparently you didn't get anything real from Sant Mat and left, and that seems about right.

Others who go get much.

To say you are living in reality and they are not when in fact you are ignoring this most important part speaks to an unbalanced perspective.

We do, by the way, have courts to handle legitimate indictments, as they should.

If I were you I would not attempt to be judge, jury and executioner. Let the courts do their job. Help them if you can.

Those jobs aren't any fun, not do they substitute for spirituality.

Brian the only concern i have is do you think Tara, as apparently she went off the blogs will agree that we are talking about her and expose all comments in front again( although comments are really great) . You know what i am talking about...we just think about ourselves here..but what about Tara would she wantend to be exposed in comments again? Btw i also had that mail as probably you have but was gone with my broken computer.

Again beautiful post by Manjit on rss forum:

Arjuna: "Seriously guys and girls - leave this post do what you want - fuck, drink and party like there is no tomorrow. There is no inner existence -if any of you claim to have seen it - who was your drugs supplier looool."

Hi Arjuna! I hope you are keeping well!

I have to say, I find this comment of yours a little heart-breaking - the implication you can lose your connection to your "inner existence" to the extent of denying it, just based on a bit of gossip and hear-say on a blog & forum about another human being - however apparently honest & insightful it may be. :(

As there hasn't been much of a convincing "alternative" response to Tara's views & experiences, one that both represents Gurinder & RSSB as a potential real "viable spiritual path", and one that does not disengage with the facts of the real world & the inconsistency of theology, I feel like I need to play devil's advocate here at least in a speculative sense, based on my own experiences & understandings. And it IS indeed speculation, thinking out loud. Hence it will possibly very disjointed or "rambling" as I have a lot of thoughts about this :)......

First of all, both in my experience and understanding of a wide variety of "spiritual traditions" and individual "awakening narratives", I believe there is a phase or period of life between conceptual belief, ego-centred "spiritual experiences", complete devotion and adherence to an "ideal", and the experience labelled "enlightenment". This is called the "dark night of the soul", and it is spoken of in most spiritual traditions (if I had to guess, in RS cosmology this would correlate to the "maha-sunn"?). The signs and symptoms of this "dark night" are (and I mean this as an overview of a millennia of descriptive narratives, not just modern) often a complete lapse of "faith", extreme doubt, nihilism, atheism, believing everything is explained by materialistic laws and chaos etc. This can last from several days to an entire lifetime, if the "route" out of this "darkness" is not found. The rest of this post is from a "spiritual" perspective - plenty of woowoo no doubt. I am happy to discuss science & philosophy, and just why these materialistic models of experience & consciousness & the origins of the universe are ludicrous from a logical, scientific & philosophical point of view, but that's not what this post is about.....

What I think might be happening here is, people, identifying with a "self" (which is essentially the mind and body). are more concerned with the FORM of "liberation" rather the PROCESS of "liberation", they can only see other "selfs", such as Gurinder or the entity RSSB. They are more concerned with the personal than the universal, and thereby will never themselves experience what they seek, as this is a "dualistic perspective" which perpetuates "maya" or illusion, and "liberation" or "enlightenment" are not dualistic realisations or realities. From such an ego-centred position, it's more about who "claims" the power to enlighten than it is about the empowerment of "enlightenment" itself, which doesn't in fact belong to, or is caused by, anyone as it is causeless, and what we all always already are.

Anyway, that is all intellectual stuff. Reading Tara's fascinating account, and the comments in this thread, I was reminded of this experience I had some 21 years ago at Beas (I don't know why, it's kind of irrelevant! :). I think I've mentioned this 2 or 3 times over at RSS forum over the decades....

One day at Beas, I was walking to the early morning satsang with Gurinder. I believe this was the week or days leading up to a major bhandara, so it was being held in the larger satsang area nearer the river. Walking to satsang, very early in the morning around 7am or so (I believe, it was a long time ago!), I was walking around the outside of the huge tent. It was very surprisingly vacant outside, very few people walking around considering the event. Walking along, I encountered a young boy, aged between say 10-13 (alas I forget his age now!), with a very clear physical handicap, paralysis down one entire side. He started talking to me, joyously. I forget much of the details of the conversation now, but it went something like this; he was an orphan, his parents had died in a car accident when he was a very young child. He lived more or less alone with other poor people some 500 (this is from memory so I may be mistaken, but I do not exaggerate in the slightest intentionally) miles away from Beas. His job, for an absolute pittance, was smashing bricks with his one working hand. He had saved enough money doing this to afford the several bus, multi-hundred mile journey to Beas, alone, to visit his beloved Babaji.

Whilst all this was going on, I was overwhelmed by the deep, profound love this little boy (I was aged 19 at the time, he about 12) "emanated".

This became overwhelming to me when he pointed out to a small group of lady sevadars sweeping up an area some distance from us - he looked at me and said, in punjabi, "look how much love these sevadars are showing, look how much love there is".

I was literally choking up at this point, swallowing it back down, struggling to not openly burst into tears so as to worry or trouble this child. I did well in this regard.

Then, he got to his spot at the tent he is designated to sit - a huge, vast distance to the front where I was meant to sit - allowed to sit. I felt embarrassed, ashamed...... A part of me wanted to go sit with him, but perhaps due to cowardice and certainly ego, I just bade him farewell, and he smiled at me and disappeared into the tent. The rest of my long journey to my privileged "NRI section" at the front, with tears now openly flowing from eyes, I just kept repeating, over and over to myself, "You (Babaji) BETTER be who you say you are, you BETTER give that kid the grace, love & protection he deserves, I don't care about me or anyone else, but you better be real and protect that kid!"....over & over again.......

I have stated before, I believe it is one's sincerity, love, compassion, devotion, intensity of "seeking" etc that really matters, not which guru or path puzzle you've had the good intelligence or luck to unlock. Actually, on any and every path, those qualities I mention in the first sentence I do not feel are emphasised enough. Sincerity, love and compassion will open up more "inner spiritual realities" than any guru, meditation practice or religious path, but they can be difficult and challenging ideals to emulate, and don't sound as mystical, esoteric or ecstatic (read "magical") as an inner visionary voyage of light and sound in the company of the Godman (which imo, can be had two a penny. In the end, you will sacrifice all the visionary, ecstatic experiences, synchronicities, paranormal experiences, knowledge & understanding of many concepts etc for the ability to experience real, unconditional love, for even one half second :)

In regards Gurinder, I haven't really got a clue about who he is, really. But I do find it interesting that quite a number of people - several I know personally - that have come to RS, had a level of involvement in it that ranges from the casual to more often, very, very intense & for several years - who have then left RSSB, claimed to be "enlightened" or have "realised" something, and a few have then come to public forums like these to criticise the dualistic path that is RS dogma and theology. I myself had a major "shift" in my personal life & consciousness, the effects of which still reverberate to this very day, after several years of "dark night". Through a remarkable series of multiple "syhchronicity", that even "Osho Robbins" isn't aware of, through a satsangi lady I was most closest with during my time with RS, a regular & well-known sevadar at Haynes for many years, she contacted me (very luckily), and told me to meet with "Osho Robbins". I did, and the effect of that encounter was an extremely important, critical part of my own "spiritual path". Looking back, there's a heck of a lot of RSSB related links in there, integral almost to my own "awakening".....

But - it is also true to say, the gurus themselves have said the "truth is not in the books"; maybe they (or at least some of "them", RS gurus) are aware these are all attempts to appeal to people's prior conceptual models, to "free them" by engaging with the position they currently occupy? That the "real" PROCESS is actually occurring on another dimension, outside of that which is spoken about in the books - COMPLETELY OUTSIDE? This is to cast a positive "spin" on their words and actions, who knows.

This all really leads us into what exactly is the guru - it is clear what is written in the RS books is untenable, for eg. It is clearly far too dogmatic and completely at odds with reality as we know it to be. They are clearly mundane human beings, with certain exceptional experiences and qualities that are, in fact, the potential property of all human beings. But certainly not infallible "Perfect Living Masters", anyhow. As I've stated many, many times before - I think the "PROCESS" of "spirituality" can occur with ANY guru, religion, path or countless other ways or modalities. If the disciple is ready, so will the guru be, even if s/he isn't! :)


After my own "awakenings", I too went to Haynes Park to get to the microphone to ask these questions, to "challenge" Gurinder; I was ready to do battle! :) I even posted up at RSS forum beforehand asking if anyone wanted to suggest some good questions. In the end, I rushed to queue up after each of either the first 2 or all 3 days of Gurinder's satsang schedule. Each time, there was not enough time for me to ask a question......actually, the closest I got was 2 or 3 from the mic, I think!

What is far more strange, or interesting, to me personally, was my experience listening to the satsang & Q It felt as if the entire satsang was directed at me, specifically, every single concern, or question, I had, Gurinder answered DURING that satsang. I actually couldn't believe what I was hearing - is everybody else hearing the same satsang?! This is NOT RS dogma, but actually an "advaita" type teacher, and one that was more or less openly confirming the same conclusion I had come to myself re. RS, specifically in relation to Faqir Chand, non-duality etc!

Gurinder was basically saying (from memory, obviously subject to slight error - BUT I did type out my experiences at the RSS forum a day or so after, far more accurate/detailed I expect) - openly - "what do you expect me to do, tell the truth? Then the kids will just go out and take drugs and who knows what else. Will that help everyone here? This is a school with many different levels, some at the nursery some at the university, not all are ready to hear the truth".

I walked out that satsang actually quite impressed with Gurinder - and astonished at how perfect a "mirror" the guru-figure can be, almost supernaturally so :)

Later, I bumped into my elderly mother who I took with me, but got separated from. Apparently, leaving the lady loo, she had accidentally bumped into Gurinder walking to the satsang tent, at a distant of a few feet. She suddenly and spontaneously started crying, she told me, and she didn't know why. She has no past association with RS or Gurinder (though had been with me years before a few times), but she is an fairly "simple minded" person who believes in all religions! I was struck with the idea, whatever I have "realised", how could I explain it to her, how could I explain to her my "non-dual" interpretation of her experience? It couldn't be done, and it would be a sin to attempt to do so!

All in all, I was left scratching my head......just what did happen there? I don't know! :) But I WAS impressed with the "perfection" of the world, how everything is exactly where it needs to be, from some perspectives at least......

Which is why I do not go to satsangs, or out of my way, personally, to present critical, alternative views - it is not that I am a particularly angry or aggressive person that enjoys putting down the beliefs and practices of others - for a start, what the hell do I know, nothing at all! I just feel that there is so few arenas where these things can be discussed from a critical or alternative perspective, and that some people's "spiritual paths" does entail doing that.....nay, is ESSENTIAL to! And it is in that spirit that I decide on the mode and tone of engagement on this subject with others - if you're coming to one of the only 2 places on the planet, virtual at that, where people can be critical of RS, then you should expect your beliefs to be shaken!

Peace to all,


People of this blog. We all have faults and downfalls but still. At the end we face with the same thing and that is our own death. So at least while living we have a company of each other which i think is the great gift. Where would i be if i had no others(you)..i honestly think not in a great place. So i realized how important is to hear critics and be critical but on the other hand wake from only critical too to not become more bitter. What is the real goal of man the real inner or outer goal...is it long forgotten happiness or contenment or both?
I must openly and sincerely tell you i tried both sides in life and the best i feel in the middle. I tried alcohol, ganja...etc swearing,meat,veggie,arguments,self punishment,self hating(i never hated others) lies( but only small ones ..never got anything by lies)....but by trial and error i found i really like sincerity and honesty more...they bring me calmness. So i must say in my trials and errors please all forgive me for my errors and thank you all for you critical and dogmatical views cause without both i would not know the middle. Thank you and best of your thought be with you.

Spencer, you really have drunk the RSSB kool-aid. You're actually believing the fantasy you've conjured up in your own mind. My hope is that you'll copy down your comments and re-read them in a few years, or decades, when you've come to your senses. Eventually the truth will win out, because it always does. It just can take time, when dogma has infected someone's mind to a great extent. Best wishes for returning to reality one of these days.

Hi Brian,

I realize you're only addressing Spencer among the
the kool-aid crowd. But, I'm sure a few years or
decades will never be enough to invalidate what
some experience within whether through mysticism or
some other religious discipline.

If, on the other hand, you have no experience within,
your litmus test for truth will be filtered by the mind.
That little voice inside the head that never stops its

The "little voice" will always create doubt and fear.
That is its own "dogma". What can you be entirely
certain of? A few minutes or years or decades later
you'll be uncertain. Unexpected results inexorably
appear in time. A slight aberration. A troubling
departure after years of consistency. A new theory's
needed to cover the emergent data.

Whatever its genesis, what you see and hear within
has an enormous psychological impact. We spend
years or lifetimes unaware of our own thoughts. Or, at
best, we're tormented, confused, overwhelmed by

That's the power of an inner journey. You simply observe
your own thoughts. You don't react, or pigeonhole, or
judge. You don't smear as "dogma" what others have
experienced and you haven't.

The lies that trap us will fade away then. What remains is
"what is". That's what ultimately frees us of all dogma.

Spence, you wrote:

"But for some of those two and a half hours most days I'm free. It's amazing."

I would think hanging out on this blog of skeptics and ex'ers would be kind of a drag compared to soaring in the heavens. You said yourself, "The company you keep is my only advice." We aren't exactly a bunch of gurmukhs around here.. speaking for myself.

Look, I'm not trying to get you. Mostly, on this blog I am writing to myself. Maybe you have "made the entire trip" as you say. I don't know what you know. I do know I don't know much. But I remain skeptical unless you can explain to me in such a way that I am convinced not to eat them.. why is eating eggs harmful for spiritual progress? I can understand that fertilized eggs are potential life and eating them could be considered killing, but unfertilized?

I have chickens. No roosters. They seem to live a pretty good life as far as chickens go. They have shelter, can roam around, are safe from predators and get all sorts of goodies to eat. In exchange, they give us some eggs. Good nutrition. What could be wrong with that?

Spencer, I sounded harsh to you in my last comment. Sorry about that. I don't doubt that you have had profound "inner" experiences that mean a lot to you. But so do Christians, Hindus, Buddhists, Muslims, Taoists, indigenous tribes, and other people who embrace a dizzying array of spiritual/religious belief systems.

I can accept that many people have mystical experiences, while still denying that these experiences reflect a reality outside of the mind of the person having the experience. This is my critique of you: you appear to believe that you have knowledge of an objective realm of reality beyond the physical. Well, again, so do many others -- and their descriptions of that realm differ a lot, both among themselves, and with your description.

So I refuse to accept the objective reality of mystical experiences, absent convincing evidence of this. Thus I also refuse to accept the claims of people, like you, who want to elevate their personal subjective experience into a claim about a universal objective realm of existence.

@ Spencer - I really don’t want to be harsh with you but I am. Enough is enough.

The Great Master once said a Master must be a perfect man - if he is not then leave his company. Looking forward to your come back on this one as it appears you know more about the inner regions than even the Masters them selves. Loooool.

Another point - if you were initiated by a man and not a master. You have no one to pull your soul current up. So it begs the question - do you believe you have the power to lift your soul up by your own means without any aid.

What Brian is saying is going completely over your head. Indeed it is your bad karma that do not allow you to think straight!!!!

You have put your self on a direct train crash in that you think you have power - you don’t. For a chap who has studied the mind at university- all that crap trap has gone to you head. Pun the pun.

I just want to worship a real master - and no why should I go to satsang where there are crooks and other motives.

Mate you really need to get a grip on yourself and listen to Brian. I said something to you a while ago and you started to challenge me with questions such as “ do you keep your vows and have you become a perfect satsanghi”.

I said one thing to you and I realised no this man has not been inside !!!! Fact if you had you would not be on here and secondly you would have thrown your dummy out the pram!!!!!

Ps my parents were initiated by the Great Master!

Sorry if I am harsh - consider it tough love!!!! Wake up man

"Fact if you had you would not be on here "

@ Arjuna - Enough is Enough 😡

Stop fooling yourself.

@ one initiated. Hello yes I am fooling myself. However I am digging deep at answers too.

I’ve spent my whole life chasing.

Have a good day

@Arguna,.....no offense Mate, but from where I am perched, accross the Pond from you, I think you are being unkind, if not down right rude to Spence. In fact, almost Trolling him. He has never used fowl language in retaliation to your many out bursts of playing “ Good Cop” than bad Cop. Also, he has always tried to help you, and has even apologized for haven hurt your feelings after you excuse your self from being Civil “ because you are all alone in the world because your family have all died.” No one likes to be alone, Brother, but We ALL arrived in these bodies alone, and will ALL depart alone. Spence was not instrumental in your Adult decision to ask for , and be accepted to receive the Sant Mat Initiation Instructions from Gurinder Singh. Your parents or no one else forced you to apply for, and accept the Vows you signed with your Application. So, Gurinder has disappointed you, and has not lived up to being the Image of God In Human Form. In fact, after 38 years of posing as what RSSB’s Minuns expect a human to be, if you put your self in his shoes, and had to listen to all these silly questions he has had to endure for 38 years thinking up answers to appease them, What would you do if he suddenly did what you keep doing here, in our little group, i.e. telling us all to @#$&((%=€>€>}] *#@,,, ....just about, give up, eat shit and die?

I am not your Father, but please do consider me your Elder Brother, on the other side of the pond, that actually cares about you, in spite of your having no other family. I KNOW the present path you are presently treading up on , will only lead to to more anger, self mutilation, and destruction.

Regardless of all the negitive testimony here by ex-Sats, there have been other crys in the Wilderness of those who HAVE had profound Inner exoeriences, and still have, in spite of how Gurinder Singh appears to look like, or how he has or is, conducting the affairs of RSSB. Do you think I lied about all the inner experiences I have shared here! I have never once, taken Drugs. My inner experinces have been all induced by following exactly what your were shared at Initiation. If you don’t take the Medicine perscribed, and contine to stay sick, and don’t heal, why can you blame the Physician who administered the Prescription? He never mixed up any new Concoction, he only administered the Perscription to you, perscribed by other Physicians before him, that has worked on many other sick Patients, including me!

Hey, Mate, don’t trash your soul because of what others , including Gurinder stirs up in your mind. Move on, if too many have farted in this Church, and find another Church where the Air is purified.

Getting drunk, smoking Weed, doing Drugs, will be not only a very temporary Band Aid on your sorrows, but will only lead you further in to the Rat hole.

I advise your departing from RSSB totally, as you certainly have become disenchanted there, by not only Gurinder, but by Satsangis in general.

Don’t buy in to Brian’s Atheism, that it all ends here , so eat, drink, and make merry, because tomorrow you may die.”

If you’ve completely thrown in the towel, visit my Blog once more, and read some of my Posts to encourge your self to at least belive God is Within YOU, the Hope of Glory.

Brother Spence has not sentenenced you to death, ........neither has GSD.
You are your own Executioner.

Peace, Bother
Jim Sutherland

@ Jim - you are right.

@ Spencer - forgive me as I was an ass and did not engage my brain when typing. I still like you nevertheless and you are a bigger man than me!

@ Jim hello and thank you.

I’d love to have had you as head master when I was at school. I would have started well. You have a way of speaking that puts one to shame.

Take that as a compliment. Please -as itsmeant to be one !

Wau Jim my respect!

Gurinder told me the same thing — " burn the books " and then followed it up with " they're just there to whet the appetite " at which point I paused : Then, I ( candidly ) said " appetite for what then ? " And he finished up with " you're intellectualizing, you have to surrender. " Later, I thought about it and I found it rather unconvincing. At the end, it is all about towing the company line so " burn the books " is just a lame joke.

This is what every mystic says. Words are only meant to
whet the appetite for experience. The mystic journey is
meant to be experiential; otherwise, it's just a religion.

You can memorize every word of RS scripture, parse
meanings, ask questions, argue, pontificate but you
get nowhere without inner experience.

Intellectualizing is not the answer. It's certainly not about
"towing the company line" either as Tara imagines.
Metaphorically you must "burn the books". Throw away
the travel brochure and begin the journey.

Also respect to you Arjuna to accept Jims words!

@ Marco - I feel ashamed of myself.

Have a good day

Arjuna dont be ashamed, that puts guilt on your mind and you dont want that. We, people are here to help each other. Recognizing of own faults is not to be guilty but to know how to correct things. Pece

@ Marko. Thanks for the kind words.

Arjuna, all is good, brother.

Your points are well taken. Passion about Truth is a good thing.

I'm here because I can't help it. Something about what you, Brian and others write is extremely inspiring to me, though in some ways I hold different beliefs.

Brian and I disagree greatly, but like you, Arjuna, there is fierceness about Truth I find very impressive and attractive.

Stay true to your sentiments.

Jim, Marko, Dungeness, thank you.

@ Spencer - I genuinely worried until you replied - Jim being the older brother put me straight (god that man has a way with words and encouragement).

Thank I won’t be an ass again - the pity is I should have more respect and I failed. Jim said something that felt like a bolt of lightening. He said”don’t trash your soul”.

I have a lot of thinking to do as I have become a monster and should know better coming from the family I did.

I offer my apologies again - you I should respect as you have only ever encouraged me. Sorry.

@ All,....OK. Now that the Church Windows have been opened to let the Air clear, let’s get back to singing our Shabds out of tune with each other. Buy let’s remain a Motley Choir of indifferences, but Civil to each other.


@ Jim - you are a legend! 😀

Spencer - a lot to learn from you.

Master Jim - congrats, you've a new disciple ;) And for a good reason ! Cheers!

Arjuna - Outstanding brother, loved your responses.

Manjit - are you back on earth ? ;)

@ one initiated.

I was out of order and I think all this happened for a reason - I was meant to learn. But it is no way an excuse for the outburst.

Arjuna, your comment directed at Spencer was indeed tough love. Thanks for writing it. Sometimes one's truth has to be spoken, even if it hurts other people's feelings. Looking back, I'm thankful that my wife kept asking me tough questions about RSSB and the guru after we got married in 1990, even though the questions irritated me at the time.

I had my head in the Sant Mat sand. I didn't want to hear the truth about a spiritual path that I deeply wanted to be genuine. Eventually -- this took years -- I began to see through my delusions. This won't happen to everyone, because for many satsangis the blinders are just too comfortable to be taken off.

But for me, like Tara, I much prefer the clear light of reality to the shadows of a dogmatic, rigid, ego-driven form of supposed spirituality. Yes, ego-driven. I loved Tara's comments where she spoke about egotistical sevadars [volunteers for the guru] acting like assholes because they felt they were doing God's will when they forced people to stop taking photos of the guru, and such.

RSSB is a cult. That's the truth. It controls people in ways that may seem innocuous, but really are just as harmful to genuine inner growth as any other cult. Satsangis often begin to feel that following the guru's orders is more important than being a loving spouse or parent. Much or most of their attention gets directed toward RSSB and the guru rather than the people right around them.

So you did the right thing in speaking your truth. Don't doubt yourself when you feel like you want to be free of religious chains, and you don't want other to be imprisoned either. That's a good feeling to have.

@ Brian - what hurt me was that I had hurt another’s feeling. That’s the last thing I want to do.

I want people I come across to be happy but sometimes the inner monsters blasts out. As I did earlier.

I am initiated and yes I want to believe but there is so much doubt in my mind that it’s unbearable.

I know some people say mediate but if the initiation was false I have no one to call to. If you get my drift. That’s was the point I was making - I can't lift my consciousness- so who can help
Me. That’s my worry.

However I thank you for your email and the chains of a cult are harder to break than one can imagine.

All the best

Blogger Brian wrote; "RSSB is a cult. That's the truth. It controls people in ways that may seem innocuous, but really are just as harmful to genuine inner growth as any other cult."

-- Yes, I suffered greatly not being able to eat eggs (forbidden in Sant Mat). All those tasty muffins and pancakes I missed. And no mayonnaise.. that nearly killed me. Spencer still hasn't answered my question above about eggs. That's OK. I know in ayurveda eggs are considered rajasic and stimulate gross passions and desires. Not good for the gurmukh aspiring to subtle heavenly realms. Since I no longer aspire to such realms, a gross passion or two doesn't seem to hurt me or anyone else for that matter.

Seriously though, this egg taboo gets a little ridiculous. Once, we were going to the beach with some people and they took the time to make us avocado sandwiches knowing that we were vegetarians. We had to refuse the sandwiches because they were made with mayonnaise, a fraction of an egg in each. I imagine they thought we were 'off the deep end' fanatical about this. The sandwiches went uneaten and we ended up munching on carrot sticks for the day.

@Arjuna, .......Gurinder shared the Sant Mat Technique of how to escape Transmigrating to the lower species, if you Meditate. Any one could have showed you how to listen to the Shabd, or see the Lignt, by repetition of Simran, i.e. the Five Names. The Five Names are no longer any big secret, since the Internet is available to any one that finds out to do searches. Those Five Names are the same that all Sat Mat Initiates , regardless of Branch , were given at Initiation, other than the Soamibagh Agra Branch, starting with Rai Salig Ram who opted for RADHASOAMI as the entire Mantra. If you have never read their Books, than you would not have any faith in that Mantra, but I have read every book, developed faith in their arguments, but still retained faith in the Five Names, so instead of beating it to death, and listening to others, I used my own rationalities, and just added Radhasoami to the Five Names to make my Simran, a Six Name Simran. I even use the Christian Monks Mantra, on occassion, when it seems to be taking me too long to break thru the Fog of Johti.

Charan Singh always said to do the best we can, and leave the rest to The Lord. I have always tried to do the best I could, which was always seemingly, just enough to break thru the Fog of Johti .

You are your own man. You have been given all the tools of success and Liberation.

Use it, or Loose it.

Gurinder did his duty, by answering your request for Initiation. From then on, YOU have to Walk your own Walk, and will show your success or failure by how you Talk your Talk! Obviously, you are not a very good Pimp for RSSB, but neither am I, nor any others here, or they wouldn’t even be here.

I am not Pimping for RSSB, or Gurinder, or Ishwar, Rajinder, or any other Guru. But I AM a Bond Slave of Christ, Who is the Shabd, Word, Savior, Master, Guru, and am a Bounty Hunter for lost souls. I am a hired Gun for Christ.

RSSB is not the only Path to Liberation. They say, Gurinder keeps telling followers that, so if you no longer have faith in RSSB, then, move on to some other Branch of Sant Mat that might ignite the Shabd , or Christ that is already in you, but dorment, because of your lack of Faith, and association with Unbelievers.

Spend some time looking at other Branches of Sant Mat, if you now consider RSSB a Cult. In fact, it most likely HAS become a Cult, under Gurinder, but that does not make Sant Mat a Cult.

Check out James Bean’s extensive Research.
Just Search “ James Bean Sant Mat” and his Web Site will come up, with his Radio Podcasts, and tons of other Sant Mat information. He isn’t Pimping for any one, either.

Soldier On, Brother!

Even Sungazing is a cult but yogis live without food by using it. This rubbish argument that I can't live without animal food is trash, forget animal food people are living without food. Now scream, it is a cult, we are afraid of cults, living without food is a cult, yes it is a cult. In equal measure, even physics and aerospace are cults.

@ Jim. Thank you and I Will soldier on now.

You know a lot - a very knowledgable man.

Thanks you. Right I must cook the evening meal for myself- gosh if only the Lord came down and cooked something nice - now there’s a thought.

God bless


I was busy and saw this late

, . . so choosed to read the comments first and the article later

The only thing Charan and Gurinder say to people is :

Are you unhappy > Then try our method
of Sound and Light
A Lamborgini for your bicycle and for free and for many eternaties to come.

BOTH said : We are not perfect , . . . on the contrary ! -( like all Saints said )

I cannot believe My Wife and myself amongst 10M disciples have seen many times and in simran these Gold Diamonds_liquid emanations from their foreheads

THEN you see Them all the time !


You are advising not to drink water

As you entertain the faqirs stand point , Brian, when will you write
"The scandalous live of rotten Sawan Singh"

No karma-"repercussions in Sant Mat however it will make you immensely sad



We all have different responses to other peoples attitudes. I for some inexplicable reason have been inspired by Tara's issues to start doing my Simran again. I want to feel like I used to be. A satsangi, not this dysfunctional human who does not have a path or vision to follow.

Cheers guys

To Arguna, Jen, and any other Ex-Sat who still has a glimmer of Hope and a flicker of Flame left from years of unfulfilled meditation, here is a few comments I recently shared on another Forum, where Consciousness was being discussed, and whete a link to a Vedenta Monk was speaking about Advaita verses Yoga. The Monk preferred facing the e ils of this wirld head on, imagi ing that we are Awake, and little Gods, instead of the Sant Mat Way of Trying to BE God, to take refuge IN God, which is Anami Samadhi.

Here is what I wrote.
When your physical body is sleeping, where is your Consciousness when you are dreaming? When you see yourself talking to another person in your dreams, ( I have seen myself ), where is your conscousness then? In your physical body, or your Dream ( Astral) body, or the Body ( Causal ) viewing your Dream ( Astral ) body? So, to me, that is an example of my Consciousness split, or operating in 3 different bodies, at once, i.e. Physical, Astral, Causal. I am a Multidimensional Consciousness. So I agree with Ishwar. My Multidimensional Consciousness is like an Onion, with my soul held hostage in the center core, encased with layers of multiple Plays of Consciousness. My soul could be compared to a Cobra locked in a Basket, being lured out of the basket by the Master playing his Flute to create the Sound of Shabd to pull me out of my basket.
Taking this further, for discussion or corroboration, ......in Radhasoami Literature, mostly from the Agra Soamibagh Parent group, there are 18 Planes, or Regions. They say there are 6 in the physical body, 6 in the Astral body, and 6 in the Causal body. So, there are Sub- Planes within each body. Now, keep in mind, that to even reach the Third Eye, which is called the “ Tisra Till, or Third Til” by Master Sawan Singh, all lower 18 Realms are just the Steps to enter the FIRST Gate to the Pure Spiritual Planes. So, what Plane is Sach Khand, if any reader here knows? Here is an interesting clue. It was
shared by the last Guru of the Soamibagh Agra group in Satsang.
Here is what Babuji, the last Master of the Soamibagh Agra group shared in his Satsang given in Allahbad 24-7-1923. “The spirit-force descends up to a point where it can function in full consciousness. For instance, if an animal be placed in a human body it will lose consciousness and will not be able to do anything because its spirituality is less than that of a man. Similarly, if a man’s Surat be raised to the fifth or sixth centre, he would become unconscious and all his activities would stop. Every human being acts in full consciousness at the heart centre according to his mental make up; he can do nothing contrary to this.”
He is a wonderful Speaker, but I still resonate more with the Path of the Yogi and Sant Mat 1.0. There are absolute horrors in this world I witness, in my mind. I agree they are Samsaras, which are temporary illusions created by the mind which will eventually become, No Mind, as taught by Advaita Vedanta and this fine Teacher. But the way of the Yogi, which I resonate with, and practice, is by using the Technique of Sant Mat 1.0, the “Old School” taught by Sawan Singh, which is by practicing the Technique we were taught at Initiation, which leads our soul thru the 18 Planes to No Mind, Samadhi. I go there often. Not every time I sit in Meditation, but enough times to know where to rest from the horrors of the world the mind must witness during incarnation in this physical body and experiencing conscious awareness in any of the 18 Planes. Just knowing the horrors are only temporary Samaras of my mind does not relieve me of witnessing the horrors of Wars, Animal sacrifice, sex trafficking, Politics, Cults, which are only the tip of the iceberg of horrors. Vedanta teaches to witness and accept all of the horrors the mind witnesses, and we become liberated, or enlightened. To me, that is not liberating. Sant Mat 1.0 and the way of the Yogi is much more liberating , and rational, IMHO. Samadhi is the best way of No Mind, for me. The Sant Mat Path of the Masters does not require living in a cave in the Himalayas. Sant Mat Yogis may live as House Holders with out shutting out the world , while passing through it, and using their own Body Temples to shut out and escape Samaras, with becoming permanent prisoners of the mind. “

Jim Sutherland

“ facing evils of this world head un.......

Dould have read as,...With OUT becoming permanent prisoners of the Mind

"""" Our comments here are forming a valuable archive for those who will seek to find out more, specially after the radical shift in the """"

Riduculous and pretentious

If this was done as an examen
you would score far UNDER ZERO by the simple fact
that no single date wasprovided

The whole context could be 100% out of order
Worthless as a documentary

But half way , . . there is much more to it
But so much : HATE


Ever heard about the rich man telling the village
not to consume it all but to sow

For Instance

Mr Modi planned to construct 200 coal power plants in India
Al Gore tried to prevent such disaster

Then He phoned the US Patent holder of Sublimatic Polycrystalline
suncells asking to give the patent for free to India and so it happened

These cells are X times more powerfull and ecological

Saying that Gurinder does no social good which was appalling/dirty
while knowing nothing, . .
I thought suddenly about His connection with GOV / suncells and perhaps the american is a Satsangi

I had once a tax checker who was vegetarian and we talked only That!

Gurinder might have saved total india from total disaster


He also arranged a hyper cheap impossible One Billion $ loan
for India
to start up all these sun-powered-plants

Who , we know, . . does the impossible serendipities
this time a big one


Go, cry in the corner Brian

RSSB is a cult. That's the truth. It controls people in ways that may seem innocuous, but really are just as harmful to genuine inner growth as any other cult. Satsangis often begin to feel that following the guru's orders is more important than being a loving spouse or parent. Much or most of their attention gets directed toward RSSB and the guru rather than the people right around them.

Good grief, Brian. RSSB doesn't control people, it provides
a discipline to take back control from the mind. Its path
is one of inwardness while living within societal norms
and fulfilling responsibilities. RSSB counsels the most
loving fidelity to family and mankind. You will never find
language in its literature that suggests otherwise.

Anyone acting differently has failed to grasp RSSB. He's
acting under the dictates of his own mind, not the body
of instructions of RSSB . His progress in mindfullness has
fallen short. But he's no victim of bossy Sevadars or venal
leadership or a cultish dogma that's lead him astray.

Asserting that RSSB is a "cult", "harmful to inner growth",
is simply untrue. It's angry, unsupportable rhetoric. Nor
Nor will society at large accept such vitriol. It says
more about the accuser than the subject.

RSSB is a cult. That's the truth. It controls people in ways that may seem innocuous, but really are just as harmful to genuine inner growth as any other cult. Satsangis often begin to feel that following the guru's orders is more important than being a loving spouse or parent. Much or most of their attention gets directed toward RSSB and the guru rather than the people right around them.

Good grief, Brian. RSSB doesn't control people, it provides
a discipline to take back control from the mind. Its path
is one of inwardness while living within societal norms
and fulfilling responsibilities. RSSB counsels the most
loving fidelity to family and mankind. You will never find
language in its literature that suggests otherwise.

Anyone acting differently has failed to grasp RSSB. He's
acting under the dictates of his own mind, not the body
of instructions of RSSB . His progress in mindfullness has
fallen short. But he's no victim of bossy Sevadars or venal
leadership or a cultish dogma that's lead him astray.

Asserting that RSSB is a "cult", "harmful to inner growth",
is simply untrue. It's angry, unsupportable rhetoric. Nor
Nor will society at large accept such vitriol. It says
more about the accuser than the subject.

Thank you for this post Brian.

Some of Tara's comments are actually replies to me when I was still a satsangi.
I used to argue quite a lot with Brian and everyone else who left the path.
But my affiliation with RS ended when I read Mr Lane's books, especially the one about Faqir Chand, I wasn't disillusioned with the path like most of the ex satsangis, I just happened to type RS in on Google, clicked on Mike Williams' website and read about Faqir Chand. I was just a kid at the time, and my world was turned upside down, I couldn't believe it.
I still attended national satsangs (will be going to next one), and the more I listened to Gurinder and saw that no one was making progress, I realised that this indeed wasn't the right path. There was a lot of contradictions in what Gurinder was saying and what's written in the books. But you have to give Gurinder some credit for how he has changed some of the teachings and gotten rid of a lot of questionable notions.

I'm much happier now than when I was a satsangi, it's not because I can eat cakes, eggs, drink, party etc. I don't do that any of that stuff, I still believe in some of the practices like vegetarianism and living a moral life with no pre-martial relationships. it's just that I don't have the burden of living a certain way to please the master (i.e. listening to satsangs, going to seva or reading books).
And if i got initiation i would have to meditate which does essentially nothing for most satsangis, that would be 20-30 years wasted.
If anything goes wrong in my life, I don't look to Gurinder/God anymore, some things just happen which are outside of our control, it's got nothing to do with past life karma. I can deal with things a lot better like this, I don't have the anger over karmas causing my problems.

Hi 777

You right. It really depends upon what you choose to read, to investigate, and to believe. Or what you choose to ignore. Tara's report is biased to her grudge. She ignores some of the most important facts.

RE Ranbaxy, whose sale in 2008 fueled the astronomic leap of Religare, the investment firm originally founded to help grow the Indian economy and provide Healthcare access to more of India.

Ranbaxy was a successfully run family business bringing low cost medications to India for decades. The patriarch, Bhai Mohan Singh was a financier who bought the company in 1952 when his cousins who had started and owned it were on the brink of bankruptcy. He was the husband of Maharaji 's daughter.

In the early years of this century they became , as they remain today, the third world's largest supplier of low cost critical drugs, for TB, Malaria and Aides. They supply most of the HIV medications and Ampicillin going to Africa, including those for the Clinton HIV initiative and other impoverished nations, at fraction of the prices offered by others. This is the company's tradition and their business model.

The grandfather, in the 1970's, realized that medication prices could be slashed by retro engineering western drugs so that these medications could be supplied to India and other indigent countries as generics.

After the father died in 1999 the sons began to expand their offerings into other countries. But as they began to grow exponentially the sons ran into trouble with managing quality, specifically for their acne medicine.

And when they were approached by the Clintons for their global HIV initiative, they simply expanded to fast.

When they went after a generic version of Lipitor, they became serious competition for established drug companies, Roche, Beecham and others.


Then in 2004, within their organization quality records had been found missing or rubber stamped approved without actual inspection. And while it took a few years, in 2012 they were fined the largest penalty in the entire history of the United States Food and Drug Administration. To be cautious the FDA listed a large ban of most all the medications Ranbaxy made at two of their India production facilities. By that time the brothers Singh had sold their shares, so there was contention about how much they knew about the FDAs concerns. That resulted in an out of court settlement, and the recent expulsion of the brothers from their positions at Religare.

It should be noted that the FDA fine was for the falsified inspections. After conducting intense audits and inspections at Ranbaxy's Indian manufacturing facilities over several years the FDA also reported that none of the batches of unchecked acne medication had actually left the plant. None were shipped out. None of the other medications were found to have quality problems since the original complaint in 2004. The FDA also confirmed that there were never grounds to close the factory and finally lifted the bans.

Random checks of Ranbaxy's HIV drugs throughout Africa since 2004 have proven they were always safe and effective.


Were these corrupt men? Or visionaries in a family tradition of using business profit to expand and serve, caught in a growth explosion they could not manage effectively?

Bottom line, with all the messy human flaws involved, just as with the Clinton Initiative itself, their direct efforts have resulted in saving over a million lives.

Yes they are Satsangis, flaws and all. Egos and all, Lust, anger, greed, attachment and pride. But something else that cannot be denied.

Demons or heros?

On the human spectrum, in the balance, I'd say heros, on an international level.

777, you shouldn't spout falsehoods. Every comment has a date in the post where a comment was left. I haven't changed the order of Tara's comments in any way. Like I said, the comments are ordered from most recent to least recent.

Truth is important. When you don't know something, 777, just say "I don't know." When you pretend to know something that you don't, like whether the comments have dates and whether the order was changed, you are fooling both yourself and other people.

This is part of what religion does to people: it makes them think they are all-knowing, whereas actually they know very little.

Think about it this way.
What if they had said to the Clinton Initiative "no, we can't handle that volume."?

How many lives would have been lost because no one else could produce the drugs they cheaply?

I'm stunned,

I go UP here again !

I see no single date, nada

What is with you

Long years you say 0*1=1 , . . . I said ten times = 0 .... then , now, you say : "existence"
OK: God Exist , and you call HIM now "existance"

And now you declare something similar :

Dates exist while there are ZERO dates

Is there a heatwave in Salem, OR ?

I now see a little bit how come
you ignore a 5 fold miracle (an impossibility) , 5 at the same time


it's nothing personal ( Al Capone )


777 is mentioning that no dates are mentioned at the start/end of the comment posted above.

When you said that dates are mentioned on the original page where they were posted,
is also not of much use for any reader to actually get the idea,
because the links to those posts (with comment id) is neither available in the post above.


I have nothing to go against Jim,
but also I don't buy all what he says.
I believe that like many others,
he has also got tricked by his mind and is still in that state.

I personally feel for you - as you described your personal life.
I wish you will soon be happy from inside,
and receive great love from HIM.

If you are counting on the failures in RSSB,
and terming it as all illusions,
there are many accounts with great success in RSSB as well.
Who are doing outstanding inner progress,
many of them have received inner darshan of Babaji.

And every saint is different, everyone's style is different,
but teachings are same and intact - not even a millimetre here or there.

What does Soami Ji Maharaj started mentioning: 2.5 hours of daily sincere meditation.
What does Babaji mention in each and every sastsang/discoure: exactly the same.

Here are two very important messages from our Masters:

Hazur Maharaj Charan Singh Ji:
"If you spend 2.5 hours daily for 40 days, come and blame me if you don't find any noticeable change"

Sardar Bahadur Singh Ji:
"If you spend 3 continuous hours in thoughtless notion, third eye can be realised."

Have you ever spent 2.5 hours daily (Without faily)
for continuous 40 days ?
If not, then could you do this justice with yourself ?
could you do it continuous for 40 days and
share with us all if you notice some significant change ?
If it does, isn't it worth trying ?

Geez, what a bunch of nit-pickers there are who comment on this blog, thinking they're so superior, because they believe in RSSB fantasies. Get your own blog, if you don't like how I run this one.

FYI, this is how a comment from Tara would have looked if I'd copied and pasted each comment as Typepad stores it.

Tara said:
Akash, your Guru is a fraud. Live with it. I've lived with it ... I'm over it. The grey-blue outside doesn't precipitate on his instructions. He's as flawed, greedy and every bit human as you and I. Chill.
Reply | Edit | View | Oct 14, 2014 on Guru Gurinder Singh…

I spent quite a few hours copying, pasting, and putting paragraph breaks in each and every one of hundreds of comments. Obviously I get paid exactly zero for running this blog, while Gurinder Singh has made hundreds of millions of dollars from his stint as the RSSB guru.

I realized that putting in the date information would clutter up the comments, and the date was irrelevant to what Tara said. So deal with it, RSSB nit-pickers. Suggestion: spend your time refuting what Tara said (which you can't, I'm quite sure) rather than obsessing over whether I should have included the date of each comment.


I would also like to add an account here:
which I think I have had added on this blog earlier,
but since Brian has posted this all over again,
I am also recalling it again:

This is just one of the numerous accounts of charitable initiative:

The 2001 Gujrat Earthquake was tormenting in every sense.
I personally know some members who joined the sewa,
of re-establishing 6 villages from horrifying state to up and running,
built up thousands of homes - all of that accomplished under Babaji's guidances and orders
in an extremely short period of 5 odd months or so.
The govt. was astonished with the work done without govt. support.
There were strict orders for no media coverage.

Tara or Whoever is spreading that under Babaji's guidance the charitable work has decreased, is a daylight false - and clearly be proven wrong if anyone visits India and see things with own eyes,
not with Tara's glasses.

hi Brian,

I know you are the owner and author of this blog,
but based on the relation a reader shares with his author,
irrespective of the fact that we differ in our agreements on a topic,
a reader has some slight right to ask for some clarification ? doesn't he ?

Would you then like to suggest, how the title "Devastating criticism of Gurinder Singh Dhillon by a RSSB insider" is suitable to this blog post ?

@Brian, seduce, bribe, challenge, beg, your Brother Charan friend Initiate , Professor David Lane to offer his sugar coated explanations regsrding Tara’s hostilities against Gurinder Singh and RSSB , now that is he is back in good graces with Gurinder, and for a Bonus, invite the Western Rep.,Vince Savarice here to be his Tag Team Partner to back him up. Then, what ever they say will obviously be in opposition to what you have said, and we can all choose sides, or Cheer for our Debating Champs.

Lane can Make or break Gurinder and RSSB, at least for Western English speaking readers.

Do you think Gurinder Singh has hired Professor Lane as a Lobbyist for RSSB?

No one listens to 777, as he sounds like an Astrologer high on Drugs. Trying to gigure out what he is sating is like looking for missing pie es of a Jig Saw Puzzle.

Spence is a loyal Devotee, but an out of the Know Out Sider.

Lane and Savarice are the only believable Gurinderites that can set the Record straight, and prove Tara was blowing smoke only.

They are,...were, ...both Brothers in your Inner Group, Brian. Can’t you get them here?

Jim Sutherland

@Spence,....you said you were given the Initition Instuctions by Dr. Roland de Vries. So was I. He played a real big part, in my final decision to be initiated. He was a Seminary Grad. with a Th.D. as I was, and I really grilled him about our Bible Beliefs, and if he felt he was in conflict by being Charan’s RSSB Rep., and deserting his Christian Role. We discussed Dr. Julian Johnson, who was also a Baptist Missionary, and Roland convinced me that I certainly was not turning my back on my Christian Obligations taken whenI was Ordained to Preach the Gospel to every creature, by being initiated in to Sant Mat. I really NEEDED some one like Roland to sort out my final concerns, and he gave me exactly what I needed. No doubt, he is with Master Charan now.

Jim Sutherland

@ Jim - I have read the Path of the Masters - the chapters on what happens after death is scary. I could not sleep for weeks. This was 25 years ago.

Hi Jim!

My interest in Jesus Christ took hold in my youth. I found the character in the Bible to be charismatic, amazing. I was born into a Jewish family that rejected Zionism. Our Rabbi believed Zion was a place in spirit to be found within. He was fired from the Synagogue (University Synagogue in Brentwood, California) in 1963 for his beliefs. That is when my parents left Judaism.

And in 1965 I was baptized into Christianity.

Maharji's interpretations of the Bible really intrigued me, so that began a deeper look into the references to the Name of God, the Holy Spirit etc in the Bible.

I have found the Bible to be a wonderful exposition of the Spirit / Shabd, cover to cover.

"15 Blessed is the people that know the joyful sound: they shall walk, O Lord, in the light of thy countenance.
16 In thy name shall they rejoice all the day: and in thy righteousness shall they be exalted."
Psalm 89:16

"Sacrifice and offering you did not desire—
but my ears you have opened[c]—
burnt offerings and sin offerings[d] you did not require.
7 Then I said, “Here I am, I have come—
it is written about me in the scroll.[e]
8 I desire to do your will, my God;
your law is within my heart.”
Psalm 40: 7-8

@ Spencer + Jim - hello sirs

I’m trying mediation again tonight. Wish me luck. I want to see that shining star.

Not sure why I’m posting this

Verify your Comment

Previewing your Comment

This is only a preview. Your comment has not yet been posted.

Your comment could not be posted. Error type:
Your comment has been posted. Post another comment

The letters and numbers you entered did not match the image. Please try again.

As a final step before posting your comment, enter the letters and numbers you see in the image below. This prevents automated programs from posting comments.

Having trouble reading this image? View an alternate.


Post a comment

Your Information

(Name is required. Email address will not be displayed with the comment.)


  • Welcome to the Church of the Churchless. If this is your first visit, click on "About this site--start here" in the Categories section below.
  • HinesSight
    Visit my other weblog, HinesSight, for a broader view of what's happening in the world of your Church unpastor, his wife, and dog.
  • BrianHines.com
    Take a look at my web site, which contains information about a subject of great interest to me: me.
  • Twitter with me
    Join Twitter and follow my tweets about whatever.
  • I Hate Church of the Churchless
    Can't stand this blog? Believe the guy behind it is an idiot? Rant away on our anti-site.