Devastating criticism of Gurinder Singh Dhillon by a RSSB insider

Gurinder Singh Dhillon is the current guru of Radha Soami Satsang Beas (RSSB), a spiritual organization headquartered in India that has a worldwide reach.

In this post I'm sharing 27,000 words worth of comments left on this blog by "Tara," a woman who had an up close and personal view of both Gurinder Singh (photo below) and the RSSB organization prior to her becoming disillusioned by what she saw, which led to her leaving the RSSB fold.

What you'll read below is an extensive sampling of the comments left by "Tara"from 2010 to 2014. I selected comments that struck me as being particularly interesting, either because they related to Gurinder Singh's financial dealings, RSSB goings-on, or Tara's personal doubts about the validity of the RSSB teachings.

I figured this would be an appropriate time to share Tara's comments, since tomorrow is Independence Day in the United States, and in many of her comments, Tara celebrated her newfound independence from religious dogmatism and hypocrisy. 

Since Typepad, my blogging service, organizes searchable comments by date, with the most recent appearing first, for convenience this is how I've ordered Tara's comments. In other words, the comments Tara left in 2014 appear first, and those she left in 2010 appear last.

Click on the continuation link to read more than the first few comments. I had to insert that break because otherwise this very lengthy post would make it difficult to find my previous posts.

I realize that readers of this blog who aren't familiar with Radha Soami Satsang Beas will find much of what Tara talks about somewhat difficult to understand. Here's explanations of some of her abbreviations: GSD or GS means Gurinder Singh Dhillon, the RSSB guru; RS refers to Radha Soami, shorthand for either Radha Soami Satsang Beas (RSSB), or the Radha Soami philosophy.

What impressed me as I read through Tara’s comments is how intelligent, witty, and well-informed she is. And I rarely came across a typo, or even a poorly-worded sentence. She writes clearly, passionately, honestly. I regret that, most likely, I’ll never be able to meet her.

I've copied in the comments, which are separated by a dashed line, exactly as Tara wrote them -- aside from a few instances when I noted a repeated word, such as "the the." I've added paragraph breaks to make the comments more readable, since Typepad eliminates paragraph breaks in the comment search feature that bloggers like me are able to make use of .

It's really remarkable how much time and effort Tara put into these comments. In one of her comments, she says that a therapist advised her to write about her deconversion from the Sant Mat philosophy espoused by RSSB, since, as Tara repeatedly notes, it was quite difficult for her to leave an organization that her family had been part of for four generations.

I applaud Tara for her courage to speak her mind in these comments, and to disclose what amounts to devastating criticisms of both Gurinder Singh Dhillon and the RSSB organization that he heads up. 

Lastly, if you're not familiar with the Radha Soami Satsang Beas teachings, a blog post of mine about how Gurinder Singh has been altering them would help you better understand many of her comments: "Has Gurinder Singh revised Sant Mat to v. 3.0?"

Now, on to the comments from "Tara"...
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Avi, GSD [Gurinder Singh Dhillon] is constantly on the move and a private jet is always at his disposal. IMO, how does it really matter whether it is from Religare or whether it is a private charter from another aviation firm. The important thing to find out is whether these trips are billed to Beas.

 

Gurinder has become astoundingly wealthy over the last few years and I believe that he can afford his own private travel. In this day and age and in GSD's current position, it would be normal to want to save travel time as RSSB's operations are global. Cyclically, it would probably take two years if GSD keeps his Satsang schedule and visits each center. I don't really think private travel in such a big deal !

 

What concerns me more, is the entire shift in ethos, the making of a quasi-religion, Dera's profitability driven motives, the creation of unimaginable personal wealth through dubious means and the total absence of humanitarian initiatives. ( Sant Mat demystified ? )

 

Oh ! I remember Charan [Singh, the previous guru] sitting in the co-driver's seat of his ivory Fiat, wearing his Ray Ban aviators, arm resting on the window and the wind blowing through his beard. A cloud of dust left in the tracks of the car at the Beas river bank ... through which a cacophony of voices would come alive, Seva interrupted.

 

Men and women would rush to catch a glimpse of him and he would oblige with a smile, hands folded, a " Radha Soami " ... I think I'm still lost, somewhere, in these childhood moments, where I do believe that Charan's love for the Sangat, despite the loopholes in the philosophy, was genuinely present and felt by all.

 

I've been trying to get in touch with the Babani family ( Mr. Babani was Charan's secretary ) to find out what really went wrong after Charan passed. There was a dispute between Dera and Babani's kin. It had to do with a property that was willed to Dera, or so Dera says. By some accounts, Babani died an unhappy man. It will be interesting to hear what the Babani family members have to say.

 

It is futile to compare Charan's and Gurinder's expenditures or any similarities, including the Gurudom. Charan's followers, the old school, are either off the path, confused or are reluctantly on the fringes of ( RS ) Sant Mat ... My own, rather hardcore RS family, is too proud to admit that it has all gone astray.

 

The love is gone, and with it, all traces of spirituality that the mission possessed. The fool from the old school thinks that Gurinder is carrying out Charan's will.

 

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Gaz, I live in India, but I go to the UK and US quite often. I've got extended family who is very close to Baba Ji [Gurinder Singh] and equally close to most people in his first circle. That is how I get to learn about ' the latest ' though it has now become tiring and boring. But, GSD's a great administrator, you got to hand him that.

 

Well, the mildly interesting thing is that even the government / government departments in India are weary of questioning holy men. Somewhere in their collective psyche they do not want to ' mess ' with Guru's. They come cracking down on innocent men and treat them like dirt, but even if they have a sack of mud on a Guru, you'll rarely see them do too much about it.

 

In the case of RSSB, their PR is slick with the bureaucracy, so no one can touch them. I think GSD in particular, has established a good equation with the red tape ... just like is the case with the other corporate giants and power houses of the country. In that sense, I do not see the difference between RSSB's practices and the practices of other corporations, the only difference being that RSSB is seldom questioned and can get away with much more undemocratically, and leniently so ... :)

 

Well, with regard to the video, it was factually correct, IMO. Forget Rampal, he's a weirdo, the same has been chronicled by the oldest Sikh families of the Punjab. I happen to know a very prominent Sikh historian and he told me the same. This information is archived, but some of it is so old that it doesn't seem to have a valid voice.

 

The Sikhs of course, bring their hot-bloodedness to the fore and start quoting the GGS [Guru Granth Sahib, the Sikh holy book] and that's a distraction from the real facts. Also, I don't think RS is ' ahead ' of Sikhism by any stretch of the imagination. Okay, I'm Sikh by birth, but I'm a fringe-Sikh and I'm all for criticism. ( I even pushed the head priest < granthi > of a gurudwara once, in full public view, for reasons that will make for a funny post, someday. )

 

It is just that I think that RS philosophy is more psychologically damaging than the dictates of other missions and religions. Of course, this is my personal opinion, I was a real bummer at meditation and I couldn't see the light. The question is, how many have ?

 

 

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Hi Marina, The Charan v/s Gurinder debate can be an essay topic. I have to admit, I did ( and I perhaps still do ! ) love Charan very, very much. The reverence that I had for him will stay with me forever. Was he a charlatan ? Of course, if RS [Radha Soami] is BS ! However, I just cannot seem to stop having fond memories of him.

 

Maybe that has to do with the vibe that Sant Mat had in those days. Dera in Charan's time was a quaint little place, the teachings were less confusing and the Sevadars were kinder ( or less aggressive ) by a mile. Sigh ! Much has changed. Yes, I do feel sad but that is accompanied by a bitter-sweet feeling. I was very much in love with the idealistic RS philosophy and it gave me immeasurable comfort for many years.

 

Maybe, I wouldn't have been able to go through those years without having the beliefs that I did. So, well ... yes, I do agree with your viewpoint above about us being in a place that works for us for a certain time. But then again, I feel that I was conditioned to think in a certain way and didn't stand up for myself enough, didn't rationalize enough, didn't listen to my logical faculties.

 

It felt good to feel ' normal ' after I left RSSB and I could relate better to people. I felt like I was out of a cult. I felt like I was finally in charge of my choices, for a change ! That can be a very liberating feeling if you have been brought up within the belief system versus when you choose it for yourself.

 

Regardless of the changes, I now feel that there are massive loop holes in the philosophy per se. Gurinder ruined my RS view, but for the better I think. I was hurt in the beginning, but I'm quite relaxed about it now. My de-conversion was not a result of the alteration in the RS teachings, but of the overwhelming materialism that took over and that I couldn't help being exposed to ! It was against the very grain of all that I had been taught as the true Sant Mat path. ( I was actually quite numb to the change in the teachings — when you truly believe, you tend to justify everything and cannot question objectively ... )

Yes, I think my experiences were make-believe, but sometimes a belief-placebo can be good. However, it is far more trying and challenging to live life without a sense of God and I have my weak moments when I do miss being attached to a ' spiritual ' path. I now do some basic recitations from the Sikh prayer books as I think that being on the fringes of everyday religion keeps me grounded.

 

But, my main focus is on bettering myself as a person and reaching out to people. I'm very much inclined to community service and I believe that Seva does not have to be restricted to religious activities. In fact, doing anything to help someone in distress or random acts of kindness yield in as much by the karma-score.

 

I don't know if Charan made a mistake handing over to Gurinder. Who am I to comment upon that ? But, if you do go deeper into RS history the whole thing seems like a big coup. I now feel that there was something that pulled me out of Beas. More on that later, it would be very difficult to describe ...

 

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.. a very interesting thread, indeed ! I would go with tucson's take on Charan's wholly literal ( and not metaphorical ) interpretation of the RS regions. Up until today, RS reps describe the text-book version of the five spiritual planes at the mass-initiations across India while GSD takes a break during the three-hour long ceremony.

 

So, a cool and casual " burn the books " is a huge contradiction, IMO. The salvation laden theme ( via the Hindi & Punjabi Satsangs ) is directed at the unsuspecting ( and most often illiterate ) masses — there's no denying that. The bottom of the pyramid will not " get " the Oneness thing. They're investing in Sach Khand, in its full blown glory and putting their pennies in the Seva box.

 

I have questioned the deliberately different approaches and always have been told the same thing ... " it is all one and the same " ... which is a big cop out ! I'm very well versed with what's going on in India as well as what's being taught abroad so I can say with assurance that the RS teachings are radically different, in different parts of the world.

 

The melange is a trick, a clever play of words that is difficult to sift for those who are sucked in, the believing multitudes. If the truth speaks, it must speak only one language, understood by all. For me, love is the truth. I believe that reaching out to people is far more important than selfish trysts with Guru's, God-men, spirituality and all things holy.

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Hi David R, Charan was the Guru of my parents and my relatives from their generation. Up until a few years ago, I had family members who were initiated by Sawan Singh and my family knew / knows Charan's folks pretty well.

 

Yes, Charan had an answer for everything and he very often came across rather apologetic for what he said. But of course, you couldn't argue with " the " Guru. I always liked Charan. In hindsight, I feel he was caught in the Guru-situation but he played the part with love and humility. He was a sensitive man and that sensitivity reflected in the Dera of that era. I'm glad to have known Charan, he was a grandfather-like figure for me. I cannot comment on his enlightenment status, but he sure was lovable and the Sangat loved him to bits.

 

That kind of vibe is wholly missing in the Dera today. There was always the odd bully even in Charan's time, but this kind of out and out aggression by the Sevadars that you see today is the result of a deliberate policy change. GSD, in my opinion, had very different ambitions for the sect and for himself as well. I know I'll probably get a lot of flak and rage from RS believers, but I'm going to say this right here, at the Church of the Churchless ... The present RSSB Guru will renounce his gurudom in his living years.

 

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Hi tucson ... The advent of cheap mobile-phone camera technology has translated in a spike in RSSB security systems and procedures on all fronts, specially around GSD. When GSD's on the Seva rounds, plain-clothed security men sit like prying hawks amongst the Sangat and " pick-up " anyone who is caught trying to capture God on their cellular device. The person is detained for a few hours and his phone is confiscated and throughly scanned for confirmed deletion of RSSB data which is considered a serious offense.

 

The Sevadars are absolutely unforgiving and it is not like they will tap you on the shoulder and say " hey buddy, delete that pic " and move on. The offender will be subjected to some serious questioning. As a round up, the Security Head will be summoned ( under who's nose the camera-phone went undetected ) and he will be grilled by the higher RS reps. GSD is very particular about these kind of security measures and all this stems from a need of over-cautiousness as the sect has become so expansive.

 

I doubt if there is a black-market of GSD's Satsang's and Q&A's, else something would have shown up online. Charan seems like a daisy, doesn't he ! I still have to deal with believing relatives and family friends and ever so often the chatter begins to get borderline dogmatic. I roll my eyes in disbelief at the beliefs that were once so precious and dear to me. My " karma " I guess ... ;)

 

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Great comments ... I'm Indian and I've lived in India and Europe. Yes, India is overwhelmingly corrupt and the mutation of corruption is only getting worse. We have redundant public policies ( like the labor law for example ) and a real sinister law and order system. I had to bribe a government official in a " public welfare " division to organize a charitable initiative so you can imagine how ridiculous things can be here !

 

However, there is another side to all of this ... People survive the system despite the odds. Of course, that could also be seen as " taking it silently " but I have sensed a melancholic resilience that is very inspiring. There is a genuine spirit of hope, never mind that it may be projected on to some guru or local politician.

 

The poorer sections of society have sharp survival instincts. Even the tea vendor who sits under a tree has a plan. I have found most village people to be honest though their naivety is hard to ignore and a perfect snare for faith and votes. I do not blame the people, I blame the system, the positions and institutions of power that sit atop the populace — bureaucrats, government officials, politicians, religious heads, guru types and anyone else who is in a plump position to exploit ( which would also include middlemen and the insatiable greed of businessmen like Mukesh Ambani. )

 

It is very interesting to note that India's growth has been fueled mainly by the private sector while China's growth has solely been infused by the public sector. When I see street children happily dancing in the rain on a Mumbai waterfront, I cannot decide which is better — a devilish democracy like India or a communist juggernaut like China. ( That could be the subject of another debate ! ) Coming back to the " spirituality " of the subcontinent, it has been proven that we have the most holy-men per square mile. Blame it on that ?

 

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This vignette was recounted by an old Dera resident in the early Charan Singh days : Apparently, westerners and Indians would get " too friendly " and a few incidents of eloping / sex led to complaints from Indian families who had young relatives living and working at the Dera. The Dera management from then on restricted the social interaction between foreigners and Indians.

 

Of course, the above doesn't make any sense in this day and age, specially in the light of the rather radical changes in the philosophy and the new, ONENESS theme that RS Satsangs are now gravitating around. Wouldn't the ONENESS feeling apply to inter-cultural relations within the community ?

 

I've always got the feeling that RSSB was never big on inter-racial relationships within the sect in India. However, I do know a few women of Indian origin in the US who are married to " white " American followers. ( Pardon my choice of words ! ) The " brown " girls married to the " white " boys get to attend the annual Christmas party with their spouses and can marvel at the inhabitant of hostel No.6 who plays GSD in a skit specially prepared for the marked sheep of the evening.

 

Yes, you could have been born and brought up in England, but your original ethnicity and rank decides your " typing " within the RSSB community. As I see it, RSSB is many shades more liberal abroad but they have a biased and racially divided set-up in India. The " white-complex " is quite evident by the way different people are treated differently, as the correspondent above correctly points out.

 

When questioned, the general getaways " his mauj / his will / we are not capable to understand / he knows best " come flying back. Of course, the entire logic ( if any ) behind this race based division is baseless and only creates more barriers instead of breaking down the existing ones.

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Hi " the specialist " ... :) Judging from what I've personally observed, GSD's sons feel quite uncomfortable discussing their dad, Sant Mat and RSSB. They're not forthcoming and the topic is ( usually ) politely brushed off. IMO, they don't look up to their dad as some kind of God but are extremely discreet about their identities as the Guru's sons. Actually, almost all of their friends have no idea about who their dad really is, or have been told something different !

 

They live abroad, so it easier to keep the Beas connection under wraps. They do not have any RS-friends ( to my knowledge ) and prefer mingling with a non-RS social circle. It is a good thing and gives them the chance to be like normal folks, away from the Indian RS grapevine and the Gurinder-gushing initiates. I also think that they value the freedom and opportunity they have, and they seem like nice guys to me.

 

Eventually, one way or the other, GSD will have the multitudes convinced about the direction he chooses to take — succession or otherwise. He often says that he's only following Charan's will, never mind that Charan was quite against the full scale expansion of the sect. Regardless, the newer teachings resonate with the newcomers and it would be easier to convince them about anything, versus dealing with Charan's brood — the hardline Sant Mat followers and villagers who are still steeped in Radha Soami Mat 1.0.

 

Most of the educated newbies at Satsang have little idea of the old school RS beliefs and GSD's favorite catch phrase " burn the books " gives him the levy he needs to abandon it all someday. On the other hand, it is interesting to note that people are more into " darshan " than ever before and that is another reason why the scenario is very confusing, specially for my parents generation.

 

GSD's often said " this is not the only path " so he may be hinting at something different, but there are only a fraction of followers who actually revisit what he says and try and make sense of it all. He is way, way slicker than Rajinder. Beas is the largest RS faction and they exude a sense of superiority over the other groups.

 

Lately, GSD's been seen visiting the other RS lineages in India in an attempt to liberalize his own teachings and to be seen as the Guru-cool from Beas. I think he's very open and would welcome an alliance with Rajinder as long as he gets Chicago ! After all, in his own words " it is all the same " so maybe we'll have a holy conglomerate soon.

 

Anyway, GSD has a plan and I hope it includes charitable initiatives in the future. Beas has a lot of money, I wish they would show some generosity. I just realized I sound like a conspiracy theorist ( lol ) but I'm just giving you my observations and opinions. Good day !

 

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harneet says : " i can't understand why people are so critical of RSSB and baba gurinder singh dhillon. " Reply : You cannot understand because you have no knowledge of the philosophy and the tenets of the RS faith. It is also highly unlikely that you know anything about GSD, his past and the inner workings of the sect.

 

harneet says : " as far as his personal investments are concerned, what is wrong with that. " Reply : Nothing, as long as the means to his wealth creation are not contradictory to the philosophy that he propagates. Plus, I don't see why a Perfect Living Master would feel the need to amass wealth in the first place.

 

harneet says : " he belongs to a well to do family. he sold his lands and showroom and other property to invest further. Reply : He came from a modest background. What do you know about his days in Spain ? And, the sale of a few acres of land in the agricultural belt of Punjab cannot buy a large shareholding in a financial services compa

 

harneet says : " malvinder and shivinder are the grandsons of the previous guru, maharaj charan singh. hence they are babaji's nephews. so he invested money with his nephews for his children. " Reply : You can add another fact to that — the Dhillon's and the Singh's had never been close when Charan was the Guru. In fact, GSD was struggling with his career and Charan had sent him to Spain to work for the Balani's. This horse and pony show ( Religare ) was GSD's idea and the Singh brothers are now tired of pumping in the money. Besides, don't you think that someone as wise as a PLM would have his sons make it on their own ?

 

harneet says : " what is wrong with that. " Reply : Everything — if the position of power has been a catalyst to wealth accumulation, and in this case specifically. Have you read Honest Living ?

 

harneet says : " he has never claimed to be God but only guru. " Reply : You must be referring to Sant Mat 2.0. I suggest you read Sar Bachan and The Path of The Masters. You could also watch a short three-part video on YouTube posted by Osho Robbins, who is an ex-preacher for RSSB in the UK.

 

harneet says : " he is not forcing the radha soami philosophy on anyone. " Reply : He doesn't need to, the RSSB management has strategies and plans in place like any other organization. China is currently big on their radar.

 

harneet says : " it is for those who choose the path. " Reply : More like — it is for those who get sucked in !

 

harneet says : " as far as religion is concerned, he never tells anyone to change theirs. " Reply : Yet, he does say that visits to temples, shrines, mosques, churches and gurudwaras will yield nothing, which is just another way to deter people from going to their places of worship. But of course, the RS meditation is all about visualizing GSD while chanting the über-secret mantra.

 

harneet says : " when a person takes naam he / she includes other principles to his / her existing beliefs without changing his / her religion." Reply : Bollocks ! The mainstream RS believers have actually given up on their respective religions and consider GSD and his teachings as the be-all-end-all of their lives. And, how would you know anything about " naam " and the meditation practice when you're not a follower yourself ?

 

harneet says : " there are no forced donations. only discourses. " Reply : I guess you missed seeing the money-boxes at the exits with those men with foot-rulers pushing the currency notes inside ! I had suggested an experiment to see whether people are likely to donate before Satsang.

 

harneet says : " i am not a satsangi but i have been to the dera in beas and was highly impressed by what i saw and experienced. " Reply : Cleanliness, order and discipline is always impressive. For a visitor, the Dera it is quite a refreshing break from everyday places of worship. However, what you fail to see is the programmed, regimented and autocratic rule in play.

 

harneet says : " it is all about being a better person spiritually and otherwise. " Reply : Really ? How can you say that ? I've yet to see bigger egoists and crooks than the RS upper crust — spiritually and otherwise.

 

harneet says : " and if the philosophy does not appeal to you don't follow it. being critical of something that lakhs of people are benefiting from makes you sound like a bitter and rabid person with a heart filled with prejudice and having a very narrow view. " Reply : Holy cow, you're so judgmental yourself ! What do you know about the ex-sats on this forum to pass a remark like that ? You're not even a follower ( in your own words ) so how can you comment on someone else's experience with RS Sant Mat ? Why don't you get initiated, put in the prescribed hours of meditation and then come back after a year and post your findings ?

 

harneet says : " one man's meat is another's poison. try to live and let live. " Reply : Puh-lease, spare me that one !

 

harneet says : " focus on improving yourself instead of filling your heart with hatred of something you dont understand fully. " Reply : So, you're not a follower, yet you have " fully understood " the RS faith ? I think you've never read one Sant Mat related book and are basing your opinions on some hear-say and a visit to the Dera. IMO, it is about time you " focus on improving " your skewed perspective by actually walking the talk. You remind me of a brainwashed gimlet who's trying to defend something without actually knowing what is it that he is defending.

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sneha says : " nobody is a fool to follow any path blindly... " Reply : First off, a majority of the Indian RSSB following comprises of the poor, gullible, uneducated villagers who will cling on to any Guru-type in the hope of a better tomorrow. Quite sad, but there is no dearth of naivety.

 

sneha says : " they have experienced something... rather whole lotz of things... that is why they follow... " Reply : What have YOU experienced ? What is YOUR story ? Who are " they " ? What is the " something / lotz of things " you're referring to ? How well do you know the RSSB multitudes ? How well versed are you with village-mentality ?

 

sneha says : " if people would have been so innocent then, why Jesus was so ill treated... " Reply : I don't see the rationale behind this question ! Are you trying to say that all saints were misunderstood and / or are you comparing GSD to Jesus ? Anyway, this is an archetypal RS statement, I've heard it before.

 

sneha says : " man... use your brains... you can make 1 fool... 10 fool 1000 fool 10000 fool 100000 fool but not at least crores of people following... " Reply : Yes, you can — look at what the government is doing, it is fooling the entire nation. The RS philosophy is very appealing when you are a victim of mind control. Submission comes with a terrible vulnerability and this can happen on a mass-scale. Browse www.culthelp.info and you'll get the idea.

 

sneha says : " plz there is a humble request that if you don't follow... its ok... but don't criticize... " Reply : I do agree with you on some level, why criticize when you don't follow. But hey, we all have our own opinions and here is where we discuss religion and the likes. What's the big deal ? Of course, you have the choice to not read !

 

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the specialist, GSD prefers to keep a low profile for several reasons. Firstly, public opinion becomes limited in the absence of media exposure. People can only discuss what they read and see. If there is no information about GSD / RSSB in the press ( electronic and print ) it becomes difficult to point a finger. So, this creates a big opportunity to do things quietly, without the scrutiny of informed believers.

 

Secondly, staying in the shadows creates an aura of mystery in an already overexposed Guru industry. The tactic is to retain the charm and curiosity associated with a God-man who is inaccessible. Again, this gives ample room for questionable activities on the inside. Also, there is no dearth of gullible believers in an uneducated and over populated country like India, so the unquestioning multitudes are better than a few rich followers.

 

In the scenario of RSSB and its philosophy gaining publicity, it would be interesting to see how excerpts from " Sar Bachan " that claim that the Guru is God In Human Form would go down with the literate, burgeoning middle-class. And, the philosophy could run into some rough weather with the Sikhs, as Gurinder looks like one, but is actually the Guru-leader of a minority religion.

 

GSD's media-policy has worked well for him and the mission. I don't think he'll ever risk his image by giving a media interview. People dig when they get a lead, GSD does not give a single one ! Not even a single discourse or Q&A session has been recorded till date. The value of RSSB's asset corpus has risen unimaginably due to the rising land prices in the subcontinent so the sect is real-estate rich. All operations are volunteer work so the expenses are minimal. You can add to that a mammoth chunk of in-taxable cash donations.

 

Secrecy is a good way to go, till it busts. I know for a fact that GSD is very particular about legalities — he secures all loopholes. Laws can easily be bended in this side of the world, specially by the powerful and influential. The good thing is that the Indian Government has a lead on the black money trail through a list of Indian Swiss accounts that have been presented by Rudolf Elmer of Julius Baer. But that's just one bank, and of course, the bad thing is that the list will never be made public ! I suspect that all of India's God-men have sizable sums in the tax-havens of the world.

 

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Betty — Like a well-oiled money management system, things are designed in a manner that legally allow Gurinder to make the money that he makes. But of course, from a Sant Mat point of view, this becomes very questionable. Power is not directly misused by the Guru and his family.

 

But the creation of loophole that helps them profiteer from the position is what has funded Gurinder's son's Mayfair residence. Had Gurinder not been the Guru, he'd probably not be crusin' around in a Bentley. Such is the story of most Indian God-men, so no surprise ! But then again, most of them don't claim to be GIHF's... ;) mla — Oh ! Puh-lease ! One silly comment after another. Just tell us that you've been hired by RSSB and my day will be complete.

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mla... I'm saying it again — RS is BS ! If you care to watch closely, Gurinder is saying it himself. And, you cannot compare the " supreme / truth / presence " with Gurinder ! No, it is not one and the same, so you've lost it at some level. If you claim to know Gurinder very well, why don't we see how many people we know in common up there in the RS top-brass ?

 

Do you want me to send you a list ? Will you give details about them ? Should we do this right here on an open forum so it is for all to see ? Good idea ? That way you can rightfully say that I don't know a thing — but that has to be proven, so let's do this ! Ready ?

 

As for the insults, do you think I even care ? Go on, make your own day ! RSSB has become a rule-driven cult, devoid of love and compassion. The days of the Great Masters are long gone— but even if Sawan and Charan were liars, they still look many shades better than Gurinder.

 

Mind control is a bad thing, injecting fear and guilt in people is evil. I believe in charity much more than " spirituality " now. The RS mindset is narrow and easily clutters with judgement. In contrast, the place in a kind heart and open mind, is limitless.

 

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Hi Mike, please send me a private email. Brian has my ID. Seeker2011, I echo your thoughts, well said. Hanging out with GSD gave me a pretty good idea of the business-like, political workings of the sect — quite a contradiction to the stuff that pours out of the theology. Utter BS ! But I do believe that the show will be over sooner or later.

 

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I'm not surprised. GSD is very low-key when it comes to the media. He also manages to stay away from the flashbulbs. How ? A few members of his force comb the scene ahead of his arrival. Photographers and journalists are quietly identified, then requested and / or deflected so that no pictures are taken. He's never given an interview.

 

The RSSB policy on media-persons wanting a byte from Gurinder and his spiritual cronies is simple. They are " humbly " told that the Master's sole purpose is to serve the Sangat and that " HE " does not believe in publicity because he's against " marketing the philosophy " of the mission. Good idea ! Specially, when there are millions to be made on the side.

 

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A B - You're on the fear circuit. I can add a dozen tales to yours, spicier ones if you prefer. Gurinder himself says that he cannot perform any miracles, so how does that make him any different from you or me ? If you let something control you psychologically, then it will and you will attribute every little thing that happens in your life to it — even finding the last parking slot out there.

 

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I'm butting in, but I have my doubts Mike ! I know Gurinder rather well and he is the guy on top... :) He's actually the one who controls everything, the board members are pawns. I know a gentleman who served on the board and his pet answer was " mauj " to everything Gurinder did. He finally quit, couldn't handle the lies. Anyone who comes too close to the power center cannot keep the faith.

 

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Peter, The Beas style initiation is just plain boring, I was actually quite disappointed with the whole session. Gurinder was so mechanical, I couldn't believe it ! There was not a whiff of anything special in the air, it was like a training session and this was a relatively small group.

 

A few months later, I attended the large-scale version and there were fifteen hundred people present. Gurinder walked past the lines with his security men in tow, fleetingly glancing at everyone present in order to omit the unfit ones. ( It is believed that the Guru can see through the hopefuls and himself rejects the ones he deems " not ready " or unfit for initiation. Bollywood actresses are the current exception to the rule. )

 

Anyway, there were no rejections that day, Gurinder has become very liberal lately, it's common knowledge that he rarely ever denies anyone initiation which of course is considered gracious and all forgiving by the faithful. Initial instructions are given by the dozens of representatives, then Gurinder repeats the technique once or twice. It's a drill.

 

Before you exit, the representatives round you up into smaller groups and ensure that the mantra is recited correctly. The strange bit is that they instruct you to keep repeating the holy names throughout the day, in addition to the allotted meditation time, like some kind of background replay the brain. That is entirely impossible and I found that to be ridiculous !

 

One way or the other, they just want to control you. I felt like I was in an assembly-line manufacturing unit. When I stepped out, I wondered what was so divine about it all.

 

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Betty, Leaving was a tough choice, specially when you have family and a social circle attached to it all. But then, the choice was between acting upon my instincts or living in denial. It has not been easy, but I've found the strength to move on.

 

***** Hey Osho, you're so right ! My aunt has it figured out, so have I, so have my brothers. I wonder how long it will take the rest of my family to get out of the woods ! I think that more than anything else, people don't like disturbing their comfort zone. A faith-shake is not for the faint hearted, really !

 

Gurinder told me the same thing — " burn the books " and then followed it up with " they're just there to whet the appetite " at which point I paused : Then, I ( candidly ) said " appetite for what then ? " And he finished up with " you're intellectualizing, you have to surrender. " Later, I thought about it and I found it rather unconvincing. At the end, it is all about towing the company line so " burn the books " is just a lame joke.

 

Yes, I agree, the speakers have seen nothing themselves ! They are pet parrots, put on little pedestals and fed on darshan and importance. I know more than twenty speakers. I've confronted them all about their spiritual " progress " and the standard answer is one of the following cop-outs : 01. " It is all HIS mauj, we can do nothing ! " ( BS ) 02. " We're all struggling souls ! " ( BS x 10X ) 03. " We have to experience it for ourselves ! " ( BS x 50X ) 04. " We must not share our spiritual progress with anyone ! " ( BS x 100X ) 05. " Who are we to judge, how do we know how far we are ? " ( BS x 200X )

 

Not a single one of them came up with a statement that began with " I " and it was fitting to see how " we " and " us " were woven into everything. The plurals acted as a barrier for a more personal discussion, until I shamelessly pressed on with " how many miles to trikuti " or something equally cheeky. I remember walking up to a speaker right after Satsang with post-it's sticking out from Sar Bachan, and this guy saw me and ran the other way ! The speakers are liars, they are like the clowns of the RSSB circus.

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Osho, Marina, Mike, Nietzsche ... :) About fifteen years ago my aunt had a strange experience during meditation — she felt a golden star burst at the top of her head. For many days after that happened, she was very uncomfortable meditating. She told us that she had read in the books that this would happen, but that her " progress " was meant to be steady after that. Soon, she became quite worried because the opposite was happening and it came to a point where she could no longer meditate.

 

A few weeks later she spoke about her experience with two RS friends, who in turn, discouraged her from sharing this " awakening " with other members. She decided to meet Baba-Ji. He was vague and didn't have much to say ! She started to read frantically in an attempt to find out what was happening to her. Her Seva team grew suspicious of her and she was literally " thrown out " of her Seva because she would openly talk about her growing concerns of being unable to meditate. She was deemed a bad influence to be around with.

 

More than anything else, this hit her so hard that she became very depressed and was diagnosed with clinical depression a couple of years after this happened. At the end of it, she found a new " spiritual " group which was a mix of people from different schools of thought — Zen, Osho, Vedanta, Jiddu K and the like. She enjoyed their diversity, actively socialized and lead a normal life again. It is funny how first hand experiences like the one above didn't dampen my RS spirits. That is how sucked in I was !

 

Before my initiation, I went through a phase where I was trying to disassociate Gurinder from the teachings. I had stopped idolizing him but somewhere in my head and heart I wanted to believe in the teachings. I went to the Dera right after my initiation and was appalled at the way the road-construction Sevadars were being treated — poor men who had come all the way from Rajasthan for ( unpaid ) Seva were counting pennies to pay for lunch.

 

I followed them. One of them strayed to a water tanker close by for a gulp of water. The goon on duty ( Sevadar ) rudely told him to move on. I yelled back at the guy. I don't know what came over me but I told him in Hindi " you have no soul you dog " or something like that. I watched them at the local canteen, made conversation. The love that they possessed for the Guru was incomprehensible. We stood and ate, there were no chairs for anyone. Before the meal was over, the goon returned to urge them to eat fast, telling them that there was no break and that they had to report back to duty soon. I felt miserable.

 

IMO, this was exploitation. But then again, I had seen all this for years ! All along, I had reveled in the luxury of being close to the Guru's family and basked in the material glory of having my father's office book my ticket to Beas at a whim. I felt like the biggest hypocrite in the world. I realized that I could not segregate Gurinder, his policies and the teachings — he was the one responsible for the in-compassionate treatment of the poor workers.

 

No amounts of his personal niceties and favors towards me and my family could change that. At the bottom of the RS pyramid is feudal style slavery, and the fact remains that the very people who do the toughest Seva for the mission will never get the chance to meet Gurinder — their God.

 

However, the icing on the cake was Gurinder's son's wedding ! The girl's family served up all sorts of meat at one of their parties where the RS group ( the boy's side ) stood shakily at one end of the garden. Of course, Gurinder knew that they were serving meat and he didn't attend that party, but he had specifically given a private dictate that he didn't want to curtail the celebratory mood and that RSSB stands for an " acceptance " of another's wishes and beliefs.

 

Wow ! I recalled the time when I was strongly advised fish-oil capsules by the doctor and the confusion that stemmed from that led to a " karma conference " within my family. So, it is acceptable to permit meat when there is a wedding in the Guru's family, but a prescribed bottle of medication for a believer is a no-no ? Ah, ha !

 

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The more I hung out with Gurinder, the more " normal " I realized he was. I've been lucky, I've observed him carefully. Strangely, I never felt that same " pull " towards him, the way I felt when I was around Charan. ( Again, that could have been my own projection ! )

 

Whenever I met Gurinder, he referred to Charan on the smallest of issues that he didn't want to be accountable for. One part of me felt that he was passing the buck on, the other cried " You're my Master, you're responsible ! " He specifically told me that he was carrying out Charan's will, playing the role that was given to him. He said — " We're all struggling ! " That phrase got the better of everyone present, sighs of Gurinder's humbleness reverberated long after we dispersed.

 

Well, I wasn't entirely convinced. I think he believes he's enlightened, but knows he's unknowing. He's very confused himself, but yes, he's very confident at the same time. When I was a believer I couldn't look at him in the eye. It was like a confession session and I just couldn't face him ! I was fearful, thinking that he could see right through me and read my thoughts.

 

Over the months, somewhere in 2008, my faith began to wane, and I grew more confident around him. I realized that my thoughts were my own and that he couldn't read them.

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It has been an interesting morning indeed ! I think everyone's correct on this. Yes, Gurinder had imposed a so called " online ban " for all things relating to RS and RSSB. That was in 1996. I asked him about this specifically, back in 2001 and he said " How is it ( the internet ) going to help you with your spiritual progress ? "

 

So yes, he did not encourage seekers. tAo has typed excerpts from the US newsletter that RSSB published. But, that was then. The internet was not as powerful as it is today. He couldn't foresee this happening. Later, at some point in 2002 or so, he changed his mind. He probably realised it himself ( or was advised ) that reverse psychology would work better with the internet savvy seekers.

 

People had started to question him about " stuff " that they would pick up online. Mike's website and David Lane's thoughts on the RS subject were a click of a button away. Then Brian started up this blog. I spoke with him again and this time he said " Why don't you read everything that you can find online, and if you still want to be initiated, then come back. "

 

That was the standard answer he gave to anyone remotely intelligent. Now, he fully encourages a Google search. They are a number of " I love my Baba-Ji " Facebook groups that discuss everything from Satsang dates to grace ridden Baba-Ji sightings at Heathrow.

 

You see, Gurinder is smart, very smart. He moves with the times. Now, he's fed up with the five regions, their kings and Sat Purush. He's discontinued the Sach Khand ferry and has switched to the ONENESS. He went over to the Dayal Bagh faction to embrace their Guru. RSSB has " moved on " and Gurinder is going to capitalize on the online RS information to his advantage. He's much smarter than the " Baba-Ji " people see on the dais. He's now become a fusion druid. Let's see how long it lasts... :)

 

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Catherine, a few corrections : Parminder Singh died in Delhi in 1999 following a prolonged battle with cancer. His sons, Shivinder Mohan Singh and Malvinder Mohan Singh ( now known as the Singh Brothers ) succeeded him. Ranbaxy was always a professionally managed company in the days of Dr. Singh, but following his passing, many differences between the board and the promoters crept in.

 

Gurinder is said to have played his part. Malvinder Singh sought to muscle in after an eruption of disagreements with the professional CEO — D.S Brar, one of the oldest employees of Ranbaxy who was instrumental along with Dr. Singh in shaping the vision for Ranbaxy. Brar resigned in 2004 and it was all downhill for Ranbaxy from there. Malvinder Singh re-shuffled the board and took control. By the end of it — price wars, reduced profitability, debt and expiring patents got the better of Ranbaxy.

 

In mid 2008, the Singh Brothers decided to sell the family's 64% stake to Daiichi Sankyo in a deal that was too overwhelmingly overvalued to decline. In just months after their takeover, the Japanese realized that they were stung in the backside, and Malvinder Singh was politely told to leave. Read : http://business.rediff.com/column/2009/jun/05/malvinder-singhs-ranbaxy-report-card.htm

 

Please note that there was always some confusion about Dr. Singh's name : Parminder or Parvinder, you'll find half the articles on one name and the other half on the other. A short biography of Dr. Singh can be found here... Read : http://www.sikh-history.com/sikhhist/personalities/parvinder.html Gurinder affair with the Singh Brother's had already begun in 2006 with the inception of Religare, the financial services company that he mentored.

 

The sale of Ranbaxy gave Religare the shot of capital that it needed. Whatever transpired between them, it is quite clear that Gurinder's wealth was created by the opportunity that he found or was given to him — by the Singh Brothers. But, it is also important to note that Gurinder may have made a number of important and correct decisions for the Singh Brothers after Dr. Singh's demise.

 

Of course, selling the golden goose for ten thousand golden eggs is debatable, but with the valuation that Ranbaxy got, it would have taken an extremely conservative and competent man to say no and walk the company back to a second term of success. But then again, Gurinder's role as the family's Guru and business advisor, coupled with his own personal business agenda, was a bit too entwined to do any differently.

 

IMO, I think RSSB should seriously consider updating Gurinder's wikipedia information to include Religare. Unless of course, like everything else, he wants to keep 'em guessing !

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Nietzsche, Okay, Religare-RSSB cross holdings are a likely possibility, but Ranbaxy being funded by Religare in 2006 ( via RSSB trust funds ) may be quite a stretch. I cannot say I have not heard that one before, but it would be impossible to verify. Yes, late in 2007 I did receive a few emails when the shareholding was discovered but they were full of stuff that was a bit over-the-top to believe !

 

However, I do believe the word of the senior ex-Religare employee I know, who specifically told me of the movements of money between RSSB and Religare. What I really want to know is what the RSSB trust members are thinking about these money transactions.

 

You see, Charan Singh's representatives are retired, the last one in 2002, and the new appointees are selected by Gurinder. Of course, there are a couple of them who are Gurinder's close aides who are also on the Religare side, but what about the other independent members who live in Beas, the old-school loyal initiates, the scrutinizing stern old men ?

 

You know what ? I think they're all gone ! I now have a feeling that they are no independent Sevadars and the trust is being controlled only by Gurinder and his sidekicks and the financial headquarters have been moved out of Dera. Yes, this makes sense. I think the Dera accounts division must be limited to the Dera expenditure, while the centralized activity is happening elsewhere.

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Hi, Catherine. All property of the Radha Soami Satsang Beas ( RSSB ) sect is owned by the RSSB trust. Gurinder is the head of the trust and has full discretionary powers over the management and is the financial exchequer of all monetary transactions within RSSB. In other words, he's the only boss and the final decision maker on everything. The trust members are appointed by Gurinder and do not hold position through a fair election.

 

It is more like a fascist, authoritarian set-up. Gurinder's sons were under the guardianship of Gurinder's close friends in the UK. Since Gurinder does not like too much attention drawn to himself or his family, his friends were the official guardians at school / college as well, so no one found out that their father is the head of a large spiritual sect in India. They can get away with the " Guru's Sons " tag here in India, because there is an inherent acceptance of Guru-types which is a part of the air that we breathe here. But, can you imagine what would happen if Gurinder's son's room-mate in UK discovered that his friends' dad is a GIHF ? It would have made his Facebook page crash !

 

The poor guy would have been so embarrassed. His sons had a difficult time when Gurinder visited their boarding school in India, but boy, dealing with a GIHF-dad in the UK would be an entirely different thing. That is why his sons lead a discreet life in London. They deliberately choose to have a non-RS social circle and don't reveal their parental lineage ( or their identity as the Guru's sons ) to the ones who don't know. It is quite understandable.

 

Gurinder has set his sons up for a life of luxury — the older one's first job was being a director in his own company at the London office where he would have possibly interviewed people thrice as smart as himself, for a fifteenth of the pay. Everyone wants the best for their children, but most of the rich Indian parents usually don't want their children to rub and rough with the world, or make it on their own !

 

I've met Gurinder's sons, they come across as nice guys. The elder one is a Savile Row regular and is hardworking too. His wife is quite a brand addict, but hey, that's the life that was given to them. They're not the kind of kids who'll do things differently — it's not in their upbringing. More significantly, they have framed a clever disconnect between the sons and the father and it makes perfect sense to keep it that way.

 

Most of the Indian RS high-society has a tendency to be very nosy about the Guru's personal life, specially after his corporate escapades. Staying incognito in London gives his children the chance to lead a normal ( and luxurious ) life and some privacy from a very inquisitive and gossipy " spiritual " grapevine. And, ultimately, it also serves the important purpose of keeping most of their wealth out of the country and hidden from — the taxman, the questioning Satsangi, the old school friend, the doubting distant relative, the ex-sat guerrilla paparazzo : me... :)

 

Anyway, I really don't care about how much money he makes from Religare, I wish he takes it all and has a great life. I'll help him load up the money-train from Beas to wherever he wants to go and tell no one about it ! What irks me the most is that he still seems to believe that he's got something spiritually valuable to impart and that he's carrying out Charan's will. Thanks for the laugh Catherine, you're right... " No wonder he ( Gurinder ) can't remember what the previous Masters taught about Sant Mat. “

 

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For : Mike, Bet ***** ***** Mike, Yes, financial oscillations between RSSB and Religare are a very likely scenario. Money going to and fro, borrowing and lending — it may all be happening. That would also help explain why the Singh Brothers gave Religare shareholding to no other relative, other than Gurinder. The RSSB purse-strings are solely in his hands and the RSSB-trust is mega cash-rich, and a tax-free pot of gold.

 

So, my take is that the Singh Brothers put in their capital and Gurinder was given a preferential allotment of equity based on his three-fold role : One, the promise of the " support of the RSSB-trust " as and when required. Two, Gurinder brought to the Religare table a band of RS loyalists ( like Sunil Godhwani, now Group CEO of Religare ) and RS board members who would keep everything under wraps and unquestionably sign any document.

 

( I'd like to add here that they're obviously not doing a very good job of keeping their secrets secure — I learnt from a top level employee, on a condition of anonymity, that there was some " backstage Guru " who was taking all the important decisions. This informer eventually quit Religare citing questionable business practices, poor governance and the risk of public exposure. )

 

Three, he would give his GIHF decisions, which have been spot-on so far ! It may also be possible that the Satsang funds are being wisely invested, as the mission has grown under Gurinder's tutelage. But, more people also means more donations. And, the financial records at the Dera are periodically destroyed.

 

Basically, it is all mixed-up, but Gurinder and his troupe of clowns are having a rich laugh. Sunil Godhwani exited the quarterly Religare review in a spanking new car after declaring a big financial loss. On the other side, the Sangat isn't complaining either.

 

I went to the local Satsang yesterday and 1.0 recitations of " Kaal " and " Kalyug " were in full force. What a drama it was ! Who is the bigger idiot I wondered — the preacher or the listener ? You see, Sant Mat 3.0 makes the role of a Guru redundant. So essentially, Gurinder has washed his hands off the Sach Khand trips for the english-speaking Sangat. He's left us with the " feel good " ONENESS thing but continues to drive the droves of cattle like the traditional herder.

 

Which is why I think that 3.0 is worse than 1.0 — it is not setting everyone free, only a handful of the educated ones who can decode the engineered confusion.

 

----- ----- Bet, Very good points, they're obviously not concerned about the greater common good ! It would be wonderful even if RSSB policies were selfish about charity and provided something for their own Sangat only. It is such a pity that the poor believing villager cannot be provided with a new pair of one-dollar slippers. RSSB's overtly materialistic priorities leave little room for love and compassion.

 

It has become a pseudo-spiritual juggernaut with a single-minded ambition to acquire as much property and land as possible. Gurinder has doctored this. The ground water contamination issue is a big problem in Punjab. RSSB does not believe in partnering with the state agencies to counter this plaguing concern. Yet, they encourage risky and irresponsible organ donation through motivational videos at Satsang.

 

Being the largest of the holy Dera's in Punjab they should actually be addressing the root cause of the problem. However, they cleverly stay out of initiatives that require monetary investments and resort to skin-deep techniques that makes them look like a humane organization. What a lie !

 

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For : Catherine, Nietzsche, Bet ***** ***** ***** Catherine, I have my doubts if the Dera administration staff will be reading this, and if you send them an e.mail regarding any query that is questioning in nature — you'll probably not get a reply.

 

Okay... Charan was a different man. He was not interested in Ranbaxy and the politics, and often told Parminder to manage his professional journey outside Beas. He was clear about his role as the head of RSSB and did not mix that with a side-business. His own son is working for Fortis today. Had Charan taken advantage of his proximity to Parminder, his sons would have been shareholders, three decades ago !

 

----- ----- Nietzsche, well, " Singh " is a part of a Sikh / Punjabi surname, more like a common middle name, but sometimes people do not use their clan / caste / sub-caste titles so they just go with Singh as a surname. I hope that is clear... :)

 

Logos is the holding company of the shareholding and different investment arms of the Dhillon family. You're right about Gurinder's lack of empathy, and he seems to think that all is fair in business. In my opinion, he just can't tell the difference between " moral " and " legal " so he is very confused indeed !

 

----- ----- Hi Bet, I assume they couldn't be bothered ! Believers will be believers, and for every one person who thinks that I may be right, they are a hundred who think I'm wrong. So, the odds are against me. And, I hope Brian's servers are secure ! All the facts that we're discussing here can be verified online. The company prospectuses of Religare and Logos Holdings are public information, accessible to anyone with a little time and inclination.

 

The personal anecdotes I inject are either first hand experiences or come from reliable sources close to the Guru's friends, the Religare " inner circle " and / or other high ranking RSSB members. I'm not into sensationalizing stuff, but I quite enjoy writing so I end up doing it in a story-telling manner. I may be the voice of many people... :)

 

In my opinion, it is highly unlikely that RSSB donations were used to buy Religare shares. Gurinder has actually done a very good job of expanding RSSB. He has juggled RSSB properties and bagged some good deals for the sect. Good infrastructure and modern conveniences are the order of the day. But wherever there is growth, there is money to be made.

 

It is like the government of a developing economy. Everyone benefits and the positive trickle-down effect is felt by all. Except of course, this is a " spiritual " organization and the benefits here are non-materialistic for the bottom line. Yes, the same money that goes into buying an expensive Satsang parking-lot can instead be used for healthcare for the poorer sections of the Sangat. It is a matter of priority, entirely.

 

I don't think that Gurinder is siphoning money directly out of the RSSB-trust coffers ! However, I believe that the trust money is being managed by Religare and Gurinder is a major shareholder of that company. It makes sense for the Guru to manage the RSSB-trust money through a financial services company that he partially owns. He's well versed with both sides, so who will take who for a ride ?

 

Anyway, he may not be directly profiting from RSSB but profiteering from it via Religare. Well, this is not as verifiable as the Religare shareholding, but I have my reasons to think it may be the case. But, even if the RSSB-trust surplus is being managed by Religare, it is a marginal activity. But then again, if an old RSSB property is sold for 50 million USD and Religare gets the brokerage, you can do the math !

 

And, why would they get another asset management company to do the deal when they can take care of it in-house ? But of course, RSSB has bought many properties internationally and Religare has an international presence as well. But still, all of it would be a minuscule amount of business, but also, a possible RSSB-Religare commercial connection.

 

To add to that, the RSSB-trust accounts are close to external audits. So, if I'm beginning to get speculative about Gurinder's jet-fuel consumption and where that Falcon 7X flies him, he has the choice to come clean and tell us where he's invested the 50 million USD that came into the RSSB purse from the Ahmedabad land deal.

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Nietzsche. Great ! You've made the effort to backtrack into Gurinder's current financial status and what you've stated sums up the facts very well. I'm relieved that what I've been harping about on the COTC ( that makes me sound like a conspiracy theorist in the process ) has some validation from an independent fellow blogger... :)

 

My additional thoughts are : Gurinder ordered the Ranbaxy sell-out, and as a faith policy, Shivinder and Malvinder do not over-rule anything HE decides. The final " go ahead boys " was given by Gurinder. I know this because the celebratory cheers resounded with a boisterous " Baba-ji does not make any mistakes ! " that came from none other than Sunil Godhwani, Baba-ji's right-hand man.

 

Before the news hit the press, everyone knew that a chunk of that booty would be pumped into Religare. Of course, Ranbaxy's health was generously inflated, but the sell-out was the best possible move from a financial standpoint — considering that the Singh Brothers made quite a mess of the succession when they inherited the company, which subsequently reflected in the company's performance over the years.

 

There was a joke in the corporates circles here that Parminder Singh was in a big shock in heaven when he learnt that Gurinder had advised his sons to sell Ranbaxy. His reaction was : " What ? Who the f*** is he ? " ( LOL ) This entire Religare affair that Gurinder's having with the Singh Brothers is in direct conflict with his role as a Guru, whether he's teaching 1.0 or 3.0. His insatiable appetite for wealth is sick, specially when there is no charitable initiative for the poorer sections of the Sangat that make up for ninety-five percent of his following.

 

IMO, Gurinder wants them to remain hungry and foolish otherwise they will not be interested in the salvation promise, which is why I think that Sant Mat 3.0 will never be introduced to the langar. You are absolutely right about the Mc-Donald's style of operations at Fortis. Also, the services they provide are the Micky-D's equivalent of fries and nuggets. It is all about the money, with little regard for ethical practice and human life.

 

But, it is interesting to note that post Ranbaxy, none of the Singh Brothers' businesses have been particularly profitable. It is too early to call, but Fortis is struggling. And, going forward, the competition will intensify. Religare is hemorrhaging under the acumen-devoid leadership of Sunil Godhwani and is showing no signs of recovering. Religare continually gets mini bail-outs from the huge cash reserves that the Singh Brothers are currently sitting on, but the well could dry-up in less than a decade if their current run continues.

 

It is also possible that Gurinder could make some bad ( not-so-GIHF ) decisions. Our comments here are forming a valuable archive for those who will seek to find out more, specially after the radical shift in the Sant Mat teachings. I like the Japanese quote, it applies to all of us.

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Nietzsche. No ! No ! Lets get this straight. Analjit Singh has not become rich on the backs of his nephews — the Singh Brothers. He was Bhai Mohan Singh's youngest son and Parminder Singh's youngest brother. Following a family division in 1989, the pharma business ( Ranbaxy ) went to his older brother ( Parminder ) and he got the smaller Max India. Has since built it into $1 billion ( sales ) Max Group with interests in healthcare, insurance, clinical research and packaging.

 

Currently, his healthcare business ( Max Hospitals ) is the biggest competitor of Fortis Healthcare, which is the healthcare business of the Singh Brothers. They are business rivals and the two families have never had any commercial alliance with each other after they parted ways in the Charan Singh days. Of course, they have often dragged each other to court over petty disputes ( a small property or some section of Bhai Mohan Singh's will ) but it was Analjit who got the raw deal when his father preferentially gave Ranbaxy to his oldest son.

 

For more on Analjit, this article sums it up well : http://business.in.com/article/boardroom/analjit-singhs-futureproof-strategy/24072/1 Gurinder's two sons, Gurpreet Singh Dhillon and Gurkirat Singh Dhillon can be found on the Indian Billionaires Club on the website here : http://www.indiastudychannel.com/resources/87721-Billionaire-Club-Ranking.aspx

 

Okay friend, stop looking for Gurinder on that list ! He's way smarter than that. The legitimate money is in his sons' names who live in London. It is highly likely that the larger ill-legit amounts are off-shored safely in the private banks of Switzerland and Liechtenstein.

 

His sons lead a rather discreet life in London. Most of their friends do not even know who their father is ! I can't find the latest rankings where they are at 355 / 356, but this rating ranks them at 360 / 361 respectively. ( I'll tell someone to search it out and I'll post it later ! )

 

Another correction — Ranbaxy was not sold last year, it was in the June of 2008. Immediately after that ( in July ) the Singh Brothers formally changed the name of Fortis Financial Ltd. to Religare Enterprises Ltd. The name " Religare " was chosen / approved by Gurinder. ( The etymology of the word « religion » in latin : Religare, means to bind. )

 

What else ? Hmmm... Yeah, there is a ton of stuff on Ranbaxy's dubious business practices. They were quite infamous for their animal testing methods, that is fine, but the promoters followed a rigid spiritual path that did not permit mayo. Oops ! Gurinder is the only " relative " who is a business partner and has made big money with the Singh Brothers. The rest of them are high paid employees, like Charan's son Cuckoo who works for Fortis Hospitals.

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Catherine, I think I'm grappling with the conditioning after my de-conversion. I left RS over a year and a half ago. As much as I'm enjoying my new found perspective, on some days, like an old habit, I find myself thinking along the conditioned patterns. But, I instinctively recognize it. I've never doubted my reasons to leave, though I have to admit, I do have my weak moments.

 

Fortunately, the older members in my family have been very supportive and have encouraged me to think for myself. On some level, they're quite confused themselves. We've talked about everything that I write here. Both my brothers are also ex-RS's, I'm very happy that our generation has made the shift. You're right, Gurinder is not crying. In fact, he's laughing, and all the way to the bank.

 

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Marina, it is early morning here, I read all your comments. On both the active threads, Osho Robbins has given you some valuable advise and Nietzsche has raised some interesting points as well. I agree with their thoughts. Here are some of my own :

 

Up until my de-conversion, I broke no RS rules. I was raised a lacto-vegetarian and so I was never tempted to eat meat. As most bakery items contained egg, those were firmly in the " not fit for consumption " category. But that was life as I knew it and it was wonderful while it lasted. My sense of security was intact and I felt loved and protected by Charan and Gurinder. I did not seek any answers because I had no questions.

 

I would sit in Q&A sessions and find it really funny when westerners would ask the Guru questions that he could not answer. I would feel bad for their lack of faith but hey, I wasn't even initiated ! By the time I was 21, I had unknowingly become a big ego ball with full " faith " in this " path " that had me more confused than I was aware of. I could hardly wait to get initiated and made important choices in life that were aligned with my RS belief system.

 

The vast amount of bull-crap I took from people was on the pre-text of the karma theory. On the rare occasions when I had conflicting feelings about the path, I would be hard on myself and felt terrible about it for days. As an adult I was afraid of the dark and couldn't sleep alone in a room. My inability to take confident decisions made me intellectually weak. I became hyper sensitive, yet extremely judgmental of others.

 

This path was the be-all and end-all of my life and my emotional dependence on the Guru increased after initiation. My inability to meditate made me extremely guilty and fearful of the outcome. As every month went by, the burden of not meditating at dawn frustrated me. I had mood swings and negative thoughts. I was advised by a senior RS member to restart my meditation seriously — to make it the top priority in my life.

 

I was momentarily relieved and for three months, I tried my best to meditate. I was physically uncomfortable, I saw nothing, heard nothing. One day, I made the conscious decision to quit the meditation. I realized that there was no point in doing something that did not come naturally to me. In my seeking years I used to think that I was a very special soul and that it would not take me long to reach Trikuti !

 

I was the RS idealist, partially because of my conditioning and partially because of a deep internal pull I had towards the path and the Masters. I don't know what that " pull " was, but strangely enough, I still feel that way for Charan sometimes.

 

After the short meditation stint, I tried chanting Shiva Mantras with my yoga teacher. He has a lovely voice and together we would sit in my garden and chant. The birds in the trees gave us company, my dogs chased the squirrels. I felt better. It was fulfilling. I continued to go to Satsang and did my Seva, but realised that the meditation was not for me. Each and every Satsangi that I spoke to, including a dozen preachers, candidly confessed that they were still waiting for the Guru's " grace " and were " struggling " with their meditation. However, almost all of them said that they were determined to be dutiful.

 

Ironically, my failure at Simran and Bhajan is not the reason I left RS Sant Mat. About two years ago, a chain of events unfolded that were simply too absurd to rationalize and were against the very grain of the philosophy that I had been brought up with. As my family was higher-up in the RS hierarchy, I was witness to a rather controversial set of issues that left the RS underbelly exposed.

 

I thought of myself as an adult for the first time and my heart said — NO. I've had no second thoughts. The withdrawal was never going to be easy, but I was prepared for it. Much has changed in my life, for the better.

 

Why am I sharing all of this ? Because I believe that if I could move on from Sant Mat, anyone can. All it takes is : 1. The understanding of Sant Mat 1.0 and a peek into Gurinder's 3.0 update. 2. The realization that being an RS initiate will change nothing in your life. 3. The self belief to face reality for what it is, without the Guru. 4. The courage to acknowledge that RS is / was a learning experience. 5. The willingness to voluntarily unlearn the indoctrinated. 6. The re-establishment of your own competence to judge. 7. The love and support of family and friends. ( And fellow bloggers ! ) 8. None of the above. You will know it when it happens.

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David, thanks for your kind words. Marina, this is for you too... :) I do believe in the existence of a supreme, a supreme truth. Well, most of the time ! Somewhere in my heart and head, I think I want to be a " believer " in something again. But then, ever since my departure from the RS philosophy, I feel that logic and reason have taken precedence over all things holy. I feel more connected with people, less fearful, less guilty.

 

The single most significant thing that happened to me after I left the RS path was that I learned to trust myself again. I lost my sense of God but I gained clarity of thought. I have to admit that I still have a lot of love for Charan, my family knew him well. He was like a grand-pa figure for me, a part of my childhood. That is why I don't try too hard to empty out all my feelings. My life has changed for the better. 

 

The reason I feel cheated is because I held the path so dearly, I felt like the faith that mattered to me most — just fell by the wayside. And, there was a great deal of mental conditioning as well, since childhood, so it hurt twice as much ! Letting go is ( and continues to be ) very difficult. Shedding a belief system is not easy, specially if you have believing family members !

 

But, I've learned to entertain thoughts without accepting them and so I can socialize with some Satsangis without an internal conflict.

 

You're right about the Guru Business, it is one big scam, a quicksand for the psyche. I thank my lucky stars that I had a streak of discernment in my otherwise brainwashed mindset ! Maybe I got a better view of things because I had read most of the RS literature at a very young age. I had a good sense of Sant Mat 1.0 quite early on in life. Then Gurinder came along, my world turned upside down.

 

But, I think Gurinder has been good for me. He set me free. I've tried a whole bunch of practices — pranic healing, reiki, hypnotherapy etc. Nothing " happens " to me other than feeling relaxed. I've not met a clairvoyant person. Yes, I've had a few telepathic and precognitive experiences, but that could be intuition or chance. I'm not sure. Isn't psychokinesis akin to magic ?

 

I was out with a bunch of friends the other day, and someone mentioned karma. I said that I don't believe in karma anymore, I think that the concept of karma is quite twisted. Then someone asked me, " How would you explain the death of a child ? " and I did not know what to say. ( ?? ) ut, I've learned to entertain thoughts without accepting them and so I can socialize with some Satsangis without an internal conflict.

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Marina, I'm sorry to hear about your son. I can now relate to your quest for the truth, from that perspective. I hope you find what you're looking for. I sincerely mean it. ***** ***** **

 

On a separate note, my thoughts follow from your comment above, they are — Gurinder has made a choice to " go along " with the literature, else the contents would have been edited. He's been the Guru for over two decades ! Book covers have changed, almost all of them, but the books remain intact with fables of fantasy, RS dogma and the explicit notion of the Master coming to " receive " the disciple at the moment of death.

 

For as long as RSSB continues to sell the unrevised literature, this is exactly what Gurinder is propagating. Whether he admits it himself or not, it is implied that he will " bring back and merge with God " each and every " marked soul " that has been initiated by him. Old fashioned literature for old fashioned times ? Well, does the " truth " change with the times then ? My guess is that Charan would think otherwise.

 

Marina, Gurinder's " good logical reasoning " is comforting, but what does the Satsangi go back to when Gurinder charming little talk is over ? The meditation cushion in the corner and the thumb in the ear — its back to the books. The only reason we are told to mediate is that we are supposed to make a divine connection with Sat Purush through Simran and Bhajan, in this lifetime. That we will " experience " what is written in the books.

 

Now Gurinder fondly talks about the ONENESS and says that there are no " regions " as such, just planes of consciousness. How modern ! But, where is Sach Khand then ? On one hand you have Gurinder telling you to not eat rennet and on the other he tells you that no one will come at the time of passing. What's going on ?

 

I come from a fourth generation of RS believers where I was fed on a diet of Sant Mat 1.0 and Charan never split hairs about pecorino and parmigiano ! I was not joking about what I said about wine and shellfish ! Gurinder actually told someone I know that he should focus on his business and meditate when he finds time. We interpret more than we need to.

 

Sometimes, when he says " do what you want " he's probably just ( humanly ) fed up and means that he really wouldn't care about whether I'm having a chianti or a pinot noir. I agree, it must be incredibly difficult being in his position. It is a very difficult role. But then, why impose more rules ?

 

I know Satsangis' who mouthwateringly gawk when I dig into a slice of margherita. But sure, the more I give up for my Guru, the more expectations he sets up — for me, for you, for the entire following. And, then he embarks on a dogma-bashing trip at a Q and A session, turning Sant Mat 1.0 on its head and leaving people dangerously confused.

 

I sense from your comments that Gurinder is probably your first RSSB Guru. Well, to cut it short, you probably know little about his financial adventures. The Gurinder that you know is the " Guru Cool " and we all tend to believe what someone smart, dynamic and rich has to say. But when I run Sant Mat V-1.0 through Gurinder's financial beginnings, his involvement with the Singh Brothers, his facade of austerity, his actual net worth — my Mac has major incompatibility issues. ( Can someone help, please ! 

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Marina, from your above comment it seems like you have a flirtation with Sant Mat. The die-hard RSSB initiate thinks otherwise. Good for you ! Okay, Gurinder is lightening up a little, but what has really changed ? Will he announce the up-gradations of RS Sant Mat himself and debunk the pile of outdated RS literature ? ( We both know that this is never going to happen ! )

 

You say — " I personally have no problems with SM versions updating as ‘times are a changing’ and anyway, what can be said of the truth ? As MirDard says - Speech at best is an honest lie. ” MirDard is " spiritual " mumbo jumbo, but it becomes skewed mumbo jumbo when the RS publication department is given the task to decode the poet's musings.

 

Gurinder is ( according to the RS doctrine ) the Param Sant Sat Guru who is the only person / GIHF on earth who has a connection with Sat Purush. Isn't this basic pretext of the RS mission in line for a minor tweak ? You say — " Don’t need to be splitting hairs over eggs / cheese rennet. " Wrong. Says who ? Gurinder himself added rennet to the forbidden list. The obeying Sangat was merrily eating pizza before that tenet came into play. And, an egg-glazed croissant is a still a big boo-boo. Food label scrutiny is an art that has been perfected by the younger generation of the UK Sangat.

 

You say — " He told me I could do what I wanted but advised me not to give up my simran. " Wow ! Astonishing indeed. You can " do what you want " in HIS words ? Really ? You're a lucky chic ! So I assume it would be okay if I had half a bottle of merlot and chargrilled prawns before I sit down to meditate ? ( Sant Mat 4.0 ! )

 

You say — " He also said when talking to me that we westerners are full of concepts. Like believing it will take four lifetimes, master will meet us after death. I was a bit shocked at that last part. " I'm happy that another RS Satsangi has put this on record. And, if RS is not one big concept in itself, then let's all get to see a two minute sneak peek into the lands of Sach Khand. I'd also like to know where my Grandfather is.

 

You say — " At another point during the conversation he said that Hector was writing a new book on concepts and illusions. " Well, I guess the RS literature will have another confusing two hundred or more pages. Or maybe, those are the cats ears, if Gurinder has decided to let the cat out of the bag ! ( I've seen it coming for a while. )

 

You say — " Regarding how much money BJ has, it doesn’t bother me. I don’t see any wrong in acquiring money and I would like to know his skills in the stock market. "

Marina, I've not been able to comprehend the above. Wouldn't you care to find out how Gurinder has made large sums of money after he became the RS Guru ? Have you read Honest Living ? So, is it okay to profiteer from the RSSB-Trust money ? Is it okay to structure your financial clout in such a way that the average Satsangi will think that the Guru has a small farming business ? Is it okay to hide your wealth ?

 

There is nothing wrong in the Guru acquiring money, but there is everything wrong in the Guru acquiring money by the means that the Guru himself preaches against. And, Gurinder has no special hands-on stock market skills. He has hired professionals to do the job for him. Your story about the little boy taking a walk in the woods is at best — cute. When it comes to defining my eating habits and committing to a rigorous meditation practice for a lifetime, I would much rather prefer a Guru who doesn't beat around the bush.

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TonyM, as you know, none of Gurinder's talks / discourses / Q & A's are recorded so that gives him the added advantage of being happily inconsistent. These are cult strategies, too bad the Sangat knows nothing about what goes on behind closed doors. Mystics don't manufacture their following like hand-cut potato chips, the enlightened one ( if there is such a thing ) is probably perched atop a glacier with a mountain hawk for company.

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Osho, Gurinder does comes across rather liberal in his talks. If he preaches about the ONENESS, then why doesn't he edit the RS literature once and for all, and get rid of the GIHF tagline ? With all that alleged "modernization" of the sect, did he overlook the literature erroneously ?

 

IMO, there is a well constructed strategy in place. Gurinder must look like a charming liberal philosopher when followers hear him talk in person. Everyone likes a charismatic, open-minded guy on stage. But once the session is over, people are left with the hardline fundamentalism in the contradicting literature.

 

Add to that the peddling representatives and you've got utter confusion ! In Q & A sessions, what are the chances of him replying straightforwardly to a quoted paragraph from an RS book that needs explanation to the seeker ? Slim. Slimmer than seeing the light. I'd expect the question to be dodged into oblivion and the questioner will probably feel like a deer in the headlights. A subtle cacophony of jeers will follow and that's how the " Do Not Question " rule comes into play. ( That is just so crazy ! )

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Jay, I actually have more of a life after I shed my RS belief system - I think I have more clarity of thought and I'm not as fearful as I used to be. My holy little " spiritual ego " went for a toss and that was a very humbling experience. It felt good to know that I was just another ordinary person and I could connect with others without an air of superiority or pretense. I realized that just by being on a spiritual path does not make you a better person, you have to work quite hard at improving yourself. Life is organic. Change is good. I now seek ways to make my present fulfilling without worrying too much about the future. The biggest lesson ? " I don't know " brings you back to the drawing-board.

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No discussions on the internet. Period. No discussions about spiritual experiences with fellow initiates. No questioning the Master about ( his ) materialistic life in Q & A sessions. — — Many things are forbidden, the list goes on. Then you're expected to be content in the darkness of a rigorous morning meditation — for the rest of your life and be fearful and guilty along the way. Where there are too many dictates, there can be no feeling of bliss.

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Hello DAS SA - I read your comment and meant to reply to it earlier but life has been rather hectic and blogging has taken a bit of a backseat... :) Well, I've heard many, many similar stories. But, then I've also seen ( first-hand ) how clueless Gurinder was when my grandfather passed !

 

I think when people devote a lifetime to something that promises redemption in the end, people are committed to believing in what they were conditioned to believe. I think it is more of a wish, a belief that " the Master has come " and maybe a way of re-assuring themselves that a " Sach Khand " awaits. Besides, if the Radha Soami path is actually a " Science of the Soul " as they claim it is, then at least a few things should be demonstrable by the Master himself.

 

Gurinder has always discouraged the notion of the Master coming to get the disciple at the time of death and has even said " no one comes " to an ( aghast ) audience on a few occasions, which is later interpreted by the faithful as a sign to up the meditation meter. I have often mentioned on the blog that even when it comes down to this " worldly life " as they call it, it is evident that Gurinder is running RSSB like a business and his own personal life is a testimony to that, so I think that this entire " spiritual trip " is one hell of a wild goose chase.

 

But maybe, when one has put years of meditation, has seen nothing, has continued to believe and thinks that he / she has had " purpose " to life, then the individual is probably satisfied with their own efforts, which has always been the focus of the RS belief-system : it is what you give, not what you get. So that sense of satisfaction of a life lived by the principles and dictates of the RS philosophy can culminate into an overwhelming sense of an " Ah ! Ha ! " moment before they pass — my guess is that it probably is a feeling of victory, like winning a race. Of course, there probably wasn't any race to run.

 

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A quick look at RSSB's Haynes Park outfit in the UK confirms what Jon has said above — the westerners are a diminishing lot amongst the congregation. A slew of young ( eighteen-something ) spiritual enthusiasts have taken up ranks amongst the Seva-doers. These new-kids-on-the-block ( almost all of them are Indian ) demonstrate a fanatic-like love for Gurinder.

Wayne, head of the publishing department at the Dera had once told me of the impending " change of strategy " that would include newer " markets " for furthering the mission. If the westerners have thinned out at one end, a large Chinese contingent has marched in on the other. It is February and at this time of the year, a few hundred Chinese seekers will go to Beas. They'll take over the international guest house kitchen and serve up veggie dim-sums and other tofu-infused fare to fellow international Satsangi's as well. They'll sing Chinese shabads and those " marked " for initiation will be initiated in Mandarin / Cantonese !

 

I've heard that the Chinese don't question very much and are a very obedient lot. As one website put it : " India - A land featuring 7.4 million Gods, countless Godmen and infinite worshippers… "

 

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I met another one of Gurinder's old friends, a gentleman who now lives in Scotland. He told me that he was shocked when he learnt of his Guru-friends' recent wealth !

 

He also added that Moga ( as Gurinder is fondly called by his pre-guru-days friends' circle ) is living on the edge with his growing tide of greed and that land-grabbing has now become a common RSSB practice.

Believers, your " Master " is a fraud — that's as simple as it is. Much exploitation is possible in the name of " spirituality " and for the sake of the millions of followers who bow to his pretentious backside, I wish that this cult comes crashing down and Gurinder has no where to hide.

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Kabir Advani - People who are brainwashed by cult practices almost always find a way to rationalize and justify the obvious fallacies and malpractices within the cult. It is a part of expressing what you will call " unshakeable faith " in the the cult. In your case - RSSB. I know my facts well, you're simply dismissing them as " conclusions " because you are auto-conditioned not to question.

The " fact " remains that Gurinder has said himself " We are a spiritual mission, not a charitable one... " And, just FYI, the Dera Hospital caters to a fraction of the people who need eye-surgery and I'm more than aware that it is free of cost ! How do you know that things are " safer and better " at the Sawan Singh Charitable Hospital ? Do you know someone who has had one surgery at the eye-camp and then another at the Sawan Singh Charitable Hospital ?

 

The eye-camps were as safe or as unsafe as the procedures being performed at the Sawan Singh Charitable Hospital. So, when RSSB cuts off a large scale charitable activity, cult members like you begin to think that it was unsafe ? Aa ha. With the kind of money that RSSB has and Gurinder has personally, there should have been five, well organized eye camps for the poor. Charan pulled it off successfully for years, and now with all the healthcare developments in India and the Guru's extended family in the healthcare business ( Fortis ) instead of stepping up the ante, Gurinder decided to shut it down.

 

Now, if you can give your opinion on the following three questions, this discussion may be worth pursuing... 01. What do you think about Gurinder's Religare involvement ? 02. Why is Gurinder so interested in swelling the RSSB asset corpus ? 03. Why does Gurinder scorn upon charity, when RSSB money-boxes continue to collect pennies from the poor ? I'd appreciate a logical answer, even if it comes from an RS injected perspective. Just don't quote some random prose from Nanak and interpret it ! That would be quite lame indeed. You've already said that I will " come back " as a worm or a snake, so I've had enough dogma... :)

 

Tara said:

Nietzsche, this comment has turned out rather essay-ish, enjoy !

 

RSSB Land Encroachment: The article you have posted clearly points out that RSSB had "encroached" upon the land in Mohali. It states:"RSSB had first come up with the land-exchange offer on September 13, 2007 and met Punjab Chief Minister Parkash Singh Badal."

 

Gurinder is very well connected with politicians in Punjab, especially those from the current ruling party. It makes sense as most "deras" or Living Guru out-posts in Punjab have huge followings (RSSB being the largest) and these devotees are the vote banks for political parties. Political visits into the RSSB Dera at Beas are a common sight before local and national elections. The Guru-Politician relationship is a mutually benefiting alliance, they need each other - the politician needs votes and in return RSSB can swing a land-deal in its favor.

 

(I would like to add that most Satsangis are in denial about RSSB's land encroachments and they will simply dismiss media reports as "lies" which goes to show how close-minded RS community members are. Time and again reports of illegal encroachments / land-dealings crop up with reference to RSSB and I have found the information correct on all occasions.)

Familial Ties / Religare: Gurinder is Charan's nephew (his sister's son) and back in the day, Charan had nothing to do with Dr. Parminder Singh's (his son-in-law) fortunes. Nimmie (Charan's daughter) had a rather turbulent relationship with her husband (Dr. Parminder Singh) and Charan was often involved in resolving their marital issues. Towards the end Nimmie and Parminder were living separately.

In Charan's guru-days, Gurinder was just another member of the extended family. The Grewal's (Charan's family) and the Dhillon's (Gurinder's family) were not very close, nor were Gurinder and Nimmie (cousins). But, Charan was always very fond of Gurinder, who was (at that time) a simple man from a modest financial background, dedicated to his Guru Uncle.

Gurinder was working at the Hyatt Regency, New Delhi (as an Assistant Food & Beverage Manager there) and his career wasn't exactly going places. It was Charan who lined up a job for him with the Bilani's in Spain and Gurinder would scour China / HK and other Asian countries for watch parts. From a job in a hotel to a billionaire businessman? Like they say, you've come a long way baby... :)

Dr. Parminder Singh was an industry captain and a visionary exemplar. A lot changed after his demise in 1999. His sons (Malvinder and Shivinder) were very young and inexperienced at the time, and Ranbaxy was being run by a group of professionals headed by D.S Brar (then MD & CEO, a non-family member) who was instrumental (along with Dr. Singh) in transforming Ranbaxy from a small Indian pharmaceutical company into a research-based global pharmaceutical major.

The disagreements over Ranbaxy's international expansion strategy between Brar and the family surfaced in 2002 and Brar exited before the end of his term, leaving what happened behind the boardroom doors a mystery. An analyst, commenting on the Ranbaxy succession planning issue, said - "The question, however, uppermost in most people's mind is: (that) does the decision reflect a tussle between the promoter and professional management in which the promoter eventually had his way." Initially,

Gurinder was just playing an advisory role to the Singh Brothers. Soon, that "advisory role" turned into a full-time consultancy of sorts and it was soon heard that Malvinder & Shivinder "don't make a move" without HIS advise.

That "HIS" was Gurinder - a backstage operator in Ranbaxy's succession that led to Malvinder quickly taking up the post of MD & CEO in what was once a professionally run company. In the months that followed, Gurinder and the Singh Brothers became inseparable when it came to taking business decisions. Then in December 2005, Gurinder announced to his family and close friends that he will not be giving business advise to any one after the turn of the year!

 

Who knows, maybe the Singh brother's thought of "including" him in some way and it was around that time Fortis was launched as a financial services company, which was then re-named Religare... (I can bet this name was Gurinder's pick, the definition of Religare is mentioned somewhere on the RSSB website in an essay with reference to religion and spirituality.)

 

Gurinder is very shrewd, it would take a very smart person to do what he is doing. Keeping everyone's faith while making a great deal of money is not something that all of us can pull off. Of course, he has an added advantage of playing "God" so he gets away unquestioned and unscrutinized. I doubt if Dr. Parminder Singh would have approved of any of this.

 

Charan Singh (Parminder's father-in-law) was not his business advisor! It is common knowledge that Ranbaxy and RSSB were separate entities during Charan's tenure - one was into the pharma business while the other was into the God business... In fact, Charan had his hands full with the politics within the Dera and wholly discouraged any kind of business association with himself or RSSB trust.

If you take a look into the Ranbaxy archives, there is no trace of Gurinder or any of his immediate family members being associated to Ranbaxy or to Dr. Parminder Singh and Nimmie Singh in any way - through employment, through shareholding, through inheritance.

The fact that one of Charan's two sons is working in Fortis today (you can confirm this on the Fortis website, his name is Jasbir Grewal aka Cuckoo) and has no shareholding in either Religare or Fortis clearly shows that Charan did not take advantage of his familial relationships, else shouldn't his son be richer than his nephew ( Gurinder ) today? I would also like to add here that Gurinder and his sons are the only family members who are shareholders in the Singh brothers' businesses. It is not like there is a consortium of familial relations managing these companies.

Relatives are employed, but share-holding has been reserved only for the Guru and his sons. I can tell you for certain that no uncle or aunt of Gurinder had gifted him the initial capital (millions of dollars) to invest in Religare. Gurinder comes from a humble past, and for those who think that he has hectares "farmland" it may be good to know a fact - Gurinder and his immediate family are not agricultural industrialists of Punjab. A few acres of wheat and mustard produce cannot buy pre-issued shares in a global financial services company!

If you read the Religare prospectus, the shares were transferred to his sons at a pre-issue price of INR 10 before the IPO was launched. Like I said in my earlier comment, I see no reason for the Singh Brothers to part with the shareholding if there wasn't something in it for them.

 

That is why, IMO, the RSSB trust-funds cross-holdings with Religare is not such a smokin' conspiracy theory after all. I do not think that Gurinder and his family are directly siphoning out money from the RSSB trust. However, there is an institution in place (Religare) which manages the RSSB trust-funds, and in turn helps the Guru and his family profiteer from it. It is a legal v/s moral issue and if you look at this from a pure " Sant Mat " perspective, all of it looks terribly wrong!

This is not your average Wall Street banker we're discussing, this is GIHF - the Perfect Living Master, the Param Sant Sat Guru of Kalyug. The plethora of RS teachings now looks like a bigger pile of BS ! What ever happened to " Honest Living " I wonder... Gurinder's younger son - Gurkirat Singh Dhillon is the youngest billionaire on the Indian Billionaires List. The children of other billionaires are the inheritors of business legacies or are first-generation entrepreneurs - their success stories are a Google search away.

 

Gurinder's older son lives in a posh apartment in Mayfair, London. Has he earned it, or is it a by-product of having a Guru-dad ? My concern is for the poor villager who takes out his INR 10 to put into the RSSB money-box. That INR 10 could also buy him another meal. Something to think about - specially when salvation does not seem to be happening.

 

Well, I don't think we'll find Gurinder absconding one day, my guess is that he may head out in an autonomous direction (the signs are already there) and may even renunciate his leadership and Guru-status in the years to come. This may be a long shot, but like all things RSSB - it will be well orchestrated and the Sangat will be satisfied.

 

Tara said:

SKat, Please read http://business.in.com/printcontent/932 and that should put the real facts in line. If Ranbaxy was all that cash rich, why did they sell out ? So, they sold the golden goose for ten thousand golden eggs ? Really ? Was it the current trend of intensifying generic competition and increased government regulation that got to them ?

It is common knowledge that Ranbaxy became debt-free after the deal and got $1 billion in cash to pursue inorganic growth opportunities more aggressively. It is also common knowledge that Parminder Singh would have wholly disapproved of Malvinder's business approach. Back in the day, Ranbaxy had one of the renowned R&D departments in the pharmaceutical sector. Many patents on drugs were about to expire industry wide, which would have allowed other pharma companies to innovate and produce products at lower costs.

The Daiichi-Ranbaxy deal was valued at 4.3 times sales and 21 times EBITDA on historical earnings. Malvinder wouldn't have got a better catch than Daiichi. He got the Japanese - hook, line and sinker ! And, the Parkway Hospital in-and-out deal was the only option as a bidding war with Khazanah would have bled them. Nothing wrong with a " good deal " though Corporate India did expect the Singh brothers to resist ! Instead, Malvinder came back with all bags packed and a neat pile of money.

From your comment it seems likely that you probably know that RSSB trust funds were ( and continue to be diverted ) to Religare. Do you see another reason for the Guru's two sons being shareholders ? What was Gurinder's financial status prior to becoming the Guru ? Of course, you don't have to answer this, but I'm sure that if you know the Head of Treasury and Head of Finance at Religare, you know the truth.

 

And, in this case, they more than hint about the Guru's involvement. It is all very risky, and you probably also know that that if this is publicly proved, it may spell disaster for the RSSB cult. By the way ( as tAo well noted ) we at the Church of the Churchless had nothing to do with the near-collapse of the global banking system ! Gurinder is a bigger fraud than all those bankers combined and he hails from our land. Besides, how different are the business practices of Mukesh Ambani, Malvinder Singh and co. in this country for you to be pulling out a fair-play card ?

 

Tara said:

A delayed response by ( maybe ) another " vituperative scorned lover " but, regardless, I do believe I have a reason to write what I write here... Bayarearetrofit says - Members of this blog forget that Gurinder has built numerous charitable hospitals where the public can get medical care free of charge. Reply - Which " numerous " hospitals are you referring to ?

The Sawan Singh Charitable Hospital was built by Charan Singh, which presently is in a serious need of a medical and infrastructural refurbishment. Which hospital has Gurinder built ? He shut down the Dera hospital and Charan's annual eye-camp. What are you talking about ?

On the other hand, the Singh Brothers ( Malvinder & Shivinder ) can use their pocket change to upgrade the Sawan Singh Charitable Hospital. After all, (1) they are the promoters of Fortis - one of the largest healthcare operators in India (2) the hospital was an integral part of their grandfather's charitable legacy (3) they are supposed to give one-tenth of their income to charity, as stated in the RS doctrine.

With the kind of money that Gurinder and his relatives have, their charitable endeavors are a real pittance. Bayarearetrofit says - After the earthquake in Sri Lanka, the Dera sent thousands of sevadars and money to build schools. He even went there to supervise the operation and refused photo ops.

Reply - About two months ago, a devastating flood hit the region of Ladakh leaving thousands of people homeless and with a dire need of the essentials - food, medicines and warm clothing. National NGO's, disaster management groups and international agencies set up relief operations immediately. Beas nodded and the nearest local wing of RSSB pitched their tents. Like an automated program, representatives took up positions and volunteers lined up - the RSSB relief camp was up and going. They served tea and biscuits, gave temporary shelter and basic medical care to a fairly large group of flood victims.

A couple of weeks later, a whisper went around - Babaji is coming ! Things went into overdrive. The fervor reached fever pitch when Gurinder's private charter touched down at the Leh airport. The media was close at hand. Gurinder marched to the RSSB shelter and talked to some of the flood victims. He had tea, then made a few suggestions to the RSSB representatives.

 

( An RS entourage was busy keeping the shutterbugs at bay, while another one made sure that no one " came too close " to Gurinder. Several local policemen and the Guru's personal security were deployed for his safety and the smooth run of the planned itinerary. )

 

Later he was whisked away in a convoy. The RS followers were left charged and darshan-soaked. Some started to weep with joy, others got into a tiered huddle and gazed unblinkingly at the leaving car with folded hands, a few ran behind the vehicle... For a moment you seem to forget that this is a relief camp in Ladakh. It kind of irks me when " Seva " takes on a religious flavor like this. The grief stricken face of a mountain villager does not seem to stir the souls of many, but the presence of an alleged GIHF brings out a torment of emotions amongst the RS following.

Also, IMO, like politicians visits, GIHF visits are actually a hindrance for any kind of serious relief work. Well, it is a good thing to gather a hundred people for a nobel cause that serves humanity, but how much of this should be credited to Gurinder ? I mean, it would be interesting to know how much Gurinder has given from his own personal wealth to the RSSB shelter or to the flood victims in Ladakh.

The RSSB trust funds are the collective contributions from the Sangat, so if the trust funds are used, it is the Sangat's benevolence. People tend to attribute too much to the Guru, how much of a role does he play in all of this besides being the poster-boy in who's name they erect the tent ? Does he lead by example by braving the chill and helping out with the chores ? He doesn't !

A bunch of brave hearts who tirelessly serve their fellowmen in distress are honorable people, while their feudal Master comes along and just laps it all up... Temporary charitable blips on the RSSB map do not substitute for a full-time humanitarian initiative - one that RSSB can easily afford. The eye-camp was a huge expense and an organizational task, it is now obvious that Gurinder prefers occasional activities. These flashes of compassion do not negate his fallacy, greed for land and corporate ambitions.

Besides, the RSSB management will ensure that they get the required mileage from this activity to maintain their charitable status with the taxmen, while countrywide, followers will drop their jaws in awe at the humility and love expressed by their Guru on this trip... Bayarearetrofit says - He travels everywhere trying meeting with his disciples at great personal discomfort. Reply - Did you hear that the RSSB Guru traveled by train amidst the hymn-singing Sangat in Punjab ? That was Sawan.

Gurinder travels only private jet within India. Overseas, it is first class or private charter again. A pristine white elevator ( Schindler ) is installed at the Beas residence that takes Gurinder from level 0 to level 1. The same elevator is installed at his sprawling new residence in Delhi, which is on the outskirts of the Chattarpur area, very close to the main Satsang grounds. This farmhouse has been named " Basera " translated as " The Abode " and is a three-acre property.

Abroad, Gurinder stays at well-maintained RSSB estates or in the best hotels. In India, his private cooks travel with him on the Satsang tour. He has staff that serves him round-the-clock in every part of the world he visits. Gurinder enjoys all the mod-cons of the high-life. The air conditioning is always kept at a cool 18 to 20 degrees for him. I could go on...

 

Well, how really discomforting is any of the above ? Bayarearetrofit says - His staff commented that he did not sleep under the same roof more than three days in a row for over 8 months while on tour, which is most of the time. Reply - He has to work hard for the donations which tend to be on an upswing when he is visiting. But he is not " on-tour " most of the time. Like all of us, Gurinder has his fair share of " time-off " from the official RSSB calendar.

 

There is a summer house in Simla ( a hill station in India in the Himanchal region ) where he takes an annual break in the company of friends and family. ( A couple of years ago starlet Kareena Kapoor and her RS boyfriend Shahid had been invited to the Simla residence. ) The regular holidays are detours from U.K. and Spain and a number of trips to Hong Kong where he has other business interests.

Bayarearetrofit says - He recently helped write and publish a book on misogynous practices in India, such as physical and emotional abuse, enslavement, etc. The book is called something like "Rise Up Women" and is meant to provide abused women resources to get out of abusive relationships.

Reply - A book that expresses an ideology and exposes the plight of women is not the same as a book that catalogues a mission's role and achievement in that sphere. We can all preach a ton of stuff, and that is exactly what Gurinder does - talk. But what is he actually doing about it ? Nothing.

Gurinder is also majorly encouraging organ donation. Has he contributed in any way, or is RSSB affiliated to any of the agencies that are finding solutions to the ground-water contamination issues that are the root cause of organ damage in Punjab ? No. Does he / RSSB facilitate organ transplant and take responsibility ? No. Does he visit donors and recipients ? No. Does he / RSSB give even partial monetary support ? No. So all his apparent " concerns " then are just his personal PR and strategic marketing campaigns for the RSSB mission, nothing else. A significant abusive relationship is the Guru-disciple relationship within RSSB but that would be the subject of another comment.

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noiZ... Hi, I meant to reply to you earlier, I just got lost somewhere between multiple windows on my Mac ! I'm happy to learn that you enjoy the comments I post. Well, mine is a long story, a sad one - debunking a belief system that I was brought up with was very painful experience. I come from a fourth generation of RS believers, though we're Sikh by descent. Most of my family and our relatives are now on the fringes of the RS faith.

I was recommended by a therapist in London to blog about my thoughts, as discussions about RSSB are discouraged within RS social circles. I've not considered cataloging my views and experiences. Besides, I live in India most of the time so RSSB may want to " deal " with me in a way they think is appropriate. I find blogging therapeutic ( from my standpoint ) and entertaining. I also feel that it helps me cope in the real world... :)

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Reply to Nobody : Part 1 Nobody says - " More than 80% of the people who post are from the US. " " This should be clear to the reader. " Maybe. But ( please check with Brian ) there are probably a larger number who tune in just to read ( the RSSB related comments ) from Mumbai and New Delhi in India. My comment above was directed at one of my ( ex ) RS group's I met at a social gathering. They were discussing this blog. How often does a blog become the only topic of conversation for thirty people and keeps them animated for over three hours ?

 

Okay. First things first. I think you're rather confused about the true tenets of Sant Mat. I'm going to step in to make a few corrections : Nobody says - " I am happy that, apparently, my guru is a millionaire... "

 

Reply --- He also sells a book titled " Honest Living " and I doubt if you have read that. Initiates are expected to overcome the evils of ( lobh and moh ) greed and attachment. Is he living by the principles that he preaches ? If Gurinder has a clear road-map to his millions, there should be transparency and disclosure. And, is he giving 1/10th of his Religare earnings to charity as prescribed by the theology ?

 

I'm not unhappy that he is a millionaire, I'm just surprised that he became a millionaire after he became the Guru. Nobody says - " He's got naam and he's got cash... " Reply --- This world ( pinda ) is an illusion ( maya ) and followers are instructed to refrain from any extremity that may hinder spiritual progress. The Perfect Living Master is projected as an ascetic figure.

 

From an RS perspective, the Guru is above materialism and is sole purpose to live on this earth amongst us mortals is to help us break free from the cycle of ( chaurasi ) birth and death. He is a savior of souls. Where do corporate ambitions figure in all of this ? Nobody says - 

 

"And I hope the Sant Mat religion grows and grows and grows and grows and grows and I wish it takes over the whole wide world... " Reply --- Sant Mat is a spiritual philosophy, not a religion. It is considered to be a step above conventional religion and is the privilege of a select few only - the ' chosen ones ' who constitute 1/10th of the creation. So no, according to RSSB, it cannot ' take-over ' the world, their disclaimer would be a fallacy then.

 

Nobody says - " At least people will stop eating meat and killing each other... " Reply --- You're into organic food, right ? Its seems like you take your food habits very seriously, but don't mix vegetarianism with RS propaganda - there is no restriction on buying an ostrich-leather bag, but you cannot have pecorino. Ouch ! I've never tasted meat and I continue to be vegetarian, but what's wrong with eating meat if one desires to ?

 

I personally know a dozen " vegetarian crooks " in the RS community. I also personally know a salmon devouring gentleman who left 25000 USD ( when he went back to Chicago ) to an old Sikh driver who had served him for ten years. Being a good human and eating meat are not interrelated ! And, people are not ' killing each other ' in general. There are militant outfits in different parts of the world, but by and large this world is a good place, and mostly we're safe from harm.

 

Nobody says - " A guru or whatever you want to call him may even OH MY GOD have sex OMG have sweaty sex ? YES. " Reply --- No. The RS guru is supposed to embrace celibacy ( according to the dictates of the doctrine ) after he becomes the Param Sant Sat Guru. His wife sleeps in a separate room and becomes a ' dasi ' or a humble servitor to her husband. But, maybe the Guru's do get horny, who knows ? Sweaty sex - I doubt it ! Spiritual orgasms - maybe... :)

 

Nobody says - " He may even be polygamist and have many wives. " Reply --- Eh ! Seriously, where did you get that one from ? Its clearly outlined at the time of initiation that except for one's spouse, all members from the opposite sex must be looked upon as brothers / sisters. And, sex out of wedlock is strictly prohibited. Do you remember your vows ? Are you confusing RS with Islam ? Who initiated you ? Have you ever read an RS book ?

Nobody says - " His role as a guru is social... His role as a guru is spiritual... Both at the same time... and without a certain pattern that fits moral or ethical laws. " Reply --- Whoa ! Without a certain pattern that fits moral or ethical laws ? Are you kidding ? OMG, please read Philosophy of the Masters Vol. 1-5, Spiritual Letters and Quest for Light. The blokes at RSSB will be mighty unhappy when they read your interpretation of Sant Mat.

 

Tara said:

Juan, Like I said, that is what Gurinder told me ! What if he was in another city in India or Europe or anywhere else - I don't know where he was. But, I'm certain of what he told me, and it was about a ' surprising ' phone call that he received which told him that he had been appointed as the new Guru.

Like ' miracles ' and other such stuff, I always noticed how things were sensationalized. I don't mean this in a gossipy way, but my personal experiences have led me to believe that there really are not two but many versions of what actually happens / happened. Then, there's another dimension to it - the Master works in mysterious ways. ( Well, I don't buy that one anymore. ) Thanks for your version though !

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Some thoughts come to mind in what otherwise would have been an uncomplicated reply to a comment posted by Nietzsche | August 12, 2010 at 04:02 AM. I touch upon ( particularly ) the mindset of the upper-class of Indian RS followers, followed by my take on promoting Shabad Yoga in the West.

This comment goes out to those Indian RS-followers who regularly visit this blog, but are too chicken to leave a comment of their own as they selectively filter and obey, according to convenience, the ' rules ' from Beas. You guys, you know who you are and its quite amusing to hear you yap on about this site socially, over red-bulls and virgin mojitos. ( Cheers ! )

I picked up the Mint Lounge a day before Independence Day and would like to quote parts of the weekend edition that are relevant to this discussion and for the benefit of the RS social group I'm referring to : " Article 19/1/A from the Indian Constitution - It ensures you are free to express yourself, but within ' reasonable restrictions ' so how free does that make us ?

The fun of old fashioned rail and rant is rare these days. It does not involve mouse-click nirvana. It involves risk for all involved - the editor, the publisher or other equivalent mediator who provides the medium; the medium itself; and of course, the writer, thinker or rabble-rouser. The time for reaction is longer and the ripple effect, wider. On Twitter and Facebook as banal as they are addictive and liberating, opinions flash, scream and fade.

We celebrate the old and new kinds of free speech. It's a freedom, the lack of which we remember every other day. Our right to freedom of expression in the Constitution has ' reasonable restrictions ' - the ' reasonable ' often bordering on the bizarre - something irks somebody all the time. If you laugh at Indianness, you are booed. If you have a mind, you are stupid and deserve to be called names. Indians tolerate arguments and opinions as long as they're about cricket, Bollywood or a few other things such as ' chai ' and mangoes.

Laws protecting free speech are an apology. Discussion about religion is out of bounds... One of the facts that emerges is the Indian tendency to self-censor. I am convinced that we speak less than what the law allows us to. A few bear the brunt of restricting laws and outdated ideologues. Are we a republic of silence ? " When I read this introduction, I thought to myself... " Freedom of expression is one thing, the complete lack of opinion - quite another. "

I was reminded of some RS initiates, most of whom don't even have an opinion that stretches beyond the cliched dogma they begin to parrot every time someone raises a valid point that questions Gurinder's recent behavior. To what degree can people become consenting puppets to a Guru who they know and agree is in the wrong never ceases to amaze me. Here is what I have to say to them - Your basic faculty of discerning right from wrong seems to have fallen through a crack in the floorboards.

If you do not object to the existence of an elitist, fraudulent Guru then the objection to the institution ( RSSB ) is superficial and the consequences are inevitable - Religare, a tightly sealed RS trust, the shutdown of charities, the emergence of RS fanaticism... The debate should be at a much more fundamental level - about what the existence of such a patriarchal institution means and not merely about who suffers at the hands of them and the resulting chaos that stems from it.

It may also be a better idea to quit debating Gurinder's Religare involvement if you cannot step on to an open forum and present your views. Stop inquiring and gossiping in hushed whispers and step out of the closet if you must, you enjoy the stuff that I post anyway ! Tell me what you think, because you are indulging in it, just offline. Damn, your stories had me rolling my eyes in disbelief...

One of you said " If you pick up the Dera and place it in Europe or America, its feudalistic hierarchy will invite the attention of human rights activists ! " So, you continue to believe in the " philosophy " maybe ? You're having a spiritual hang-over from your grandparents' Sant Mat days ? I understand that, I felt the same way for a long time...

At first, I discounted my feelings as just another source of fear, uncertainty, and doubt, but having gone past my initial apprehension of being wrong, I'm going to say that it was at the very least quite thought-stimulating. It took me over a year and a half to discover and discard all my conditioning. I knew it would not be easy... ( This part relates to Nietzsche's comment. Bringing Shabad Yoga to the West. )

RS originated and is headquartered in India, so until people from this side of the world stand up and have an opinion, RSSB will continue to be a profitable export to the West and will thrive in India by silently raking in money from the multitudes of uneducated, gullible villagers that it brainwashes in its fold. Overseas, RSSB projects a much mellower, " liberal " image and blends into the cultural ethos of the region.

 

Across the world, believers are kind, well-meaning people who have been meticulously led astray. So as long as us, educated Indians, continue to suck up to GS and his type, these pastors will incessantly feed off God's people. Freedom of mind is needed to reduce harms caused by long term ( cult ) mind control, and the first step towards that freedom is to have an opinion and " question " what you think is questionable.

 

Well, ( back to my ) lovely ladies and blessed gentlemen from the round table - Let's stop being hypocritical. Do you really wake up at 4am to meditate ? I don't think so. Most of your " social conversations " indirectly propagate vegetarianism while you insistingly pass around the pork sui mai, then turn around and ask for a quick change of plate if someone accidentally picks up a mushroom with their " contaminated " fork. How terribly crazy is that ?

 

You're seriously confused and rely too heavily on your eggless cakes as an indictor of spiritual progress. Most of you have never returned a greeting to the office guard who holds the door for you every morning. Your kids flaunt a " I'm more special than you " attitude with other kids at school and are still spoon-fed by their nannies. Do you really give 1/10 of your earnings to charity ? When is the last time you gave a medical allowance to your driver or some chocolates for his kids ? Do you think that by just being " vegetarian " you've become virtuous and humane ?

 

So, the next time you attend an RS-Satsang and come back raving about all the wonderful things you heard, I suggest you take a look at your own lives and see how you stand with regard to social etiquette, love, compassion and sensitivity towards others; and how your " spiritual path " is helping you, if at all, with any of that. By your standards I am wicked, by my own - I think that I'm better off typing this for those who may be interested to read, and that includes all of you who tune in everyday to chuckle and agree in solitude.

 

F*** the " obedient " attitude and get real about your lives. You need to have a voice, even if that means you change your gender and hide behind a pseudo name. This is just a blog, but then again, it gives you the freedom and space to talk about the stuff that is pushed under the carpet in our RS social groups.

Didn't Gurinder tell people not to use hair color ? Who's obeyed that one ? All that being said, the good news is that your like is a shrinking lot and RSSB does not appeal to most people ( in India ) anymore. Stop being apologists, when you're really not. Why do you want me to be your voice when you have your own ? Think about it. With love to all who read this... :)

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Robert & Roger, Here is a summary of the succession. At the time of the announcement, Gurinder was in Spain. He received a phone call after Charan's passing that he had been chosen by his Master ( Charan ) to become the next Param Sant Sat Guru of RSSB. This came as a big surprise to most people ( friends & family ) who were close to Charan.

Some were expecting Dr. Parminder Singh, the son-in-law of Charan Singh to become the next Guru. ( Parminder was the husband of Nimmie Singh & father of the two Singh brothers - Malvinder & Shivinder who now are partners with Gurinder. ) I remember having a conversation with GS a few years ago and he himself told me about the " phone call " and what a surprise it was to him, though at that time ( as I believed he was a GIHF ) I thought he was just being humble.

Gurinder was just another member of the extended family and was not considered to be a Perfect Living Master ( PLM ) before he became the Guru ! He was not a " higher-up " in RSSB and was actually quite disconnected from the Dera politics and was leading a quiet life in Spain with his family. Gurinder's tenure started out on low-key beginnings. It was a long while before he gave his first Satsang and wore dark glasses for almost a year and a half. Initiation started much later. The brimming confidence that you see today is the result of a well orchestrated succession.

What I saw ( back then ) was a reluctant successor who was cautious about every move he made. What would you do if you suddenly became the head of a large spiritual sect and had everyone looking up to you for " grace & mercy " on one hand, and for all management related decisions on the other ? How would it feel to have Sevadars ( double your age ) standing in submission with folded hands, saying... " Baba Ji, hukum karo ! " ( translated as ) " What do you desire Master ? " I'm sure it was rather difficult for him in the initial years and maybe there were times he may have just wanted to run away from it all, and that's why IMO, he pursues his business interests on the side, as a break from the " Guru " thing.

 

Tara said:

S.Clarity, thank you for posting here. You've raised some very important questions, here is my reply - 01. So much for transparency ! That incident happened in Mumbai in 2009, at the RSSB's management's office. My friend was very keen that his fiancé visits Beas as he came from an RS family. The girl had read about the mission and attended the Mumbai Satsang. She concluded that there were large-scale donations coming in, that were collectively given by the poor. She decided to find out how the RSSB-trust allocated the funds collected.

They made an appointment with one of the senior RS reps and her first question was a query into the approximate figure that was donated over that weekend. They were immediately escorted out of the office by four RS reps and were told that they shouldn't attend Satsang if they have no faith in the Master. I also know of three similar incidents in the Dera.

Yes, simply asking about financial dealings of any kind are considered inappropriate. Any well-informed Satsangi will tell you that it is forbidden to question the RSSB management regarding any monetary issue.

02. No, the current Master has never offered to make a public disclosure. His Religare earnings, his personal expenses ( and who bears them ), the net worth of the RSSB-trust ( all donations & assets ) and the transactions of the trust - all remain a big mystery. Individual queries are silently quashed. Unfortunately, no Sangat in any region has jointly made an inquiry into the RSSB-trust funds. Gurinder tells people that his son is working " for " the Religare London office, as if his son is an employee !

Unless one knows, Gurinder pretends that he and his family have nothing to do with Religare and that he's just a servant of the Sangat. Sunil Godhwani is an RS initiate and the CMD of the Religare Group. He is also the Guru's personal treasurer, trusted confidant and right-hand man.

03. Yes, this is correct. The Beas farmland issue is a case in point where RSSB has illegally encroached upon land that is owned by farmers and has diverted the river course to drive them out of their dwellings. RSSB has a number of land related lawsuits pending and Gurinder uses his political contacts to work things in his favor.

Announcements were made at the Delhi Satsang three years ago, urging fellow Satsangi's not buy land around the Bhati Mines area which encloses the largest RSSB center in Delhi. It was only later that people realized that RSSB wanted to buy that land, and the reason they discouraged followers to buy it was because it would have been rather difficult for RSSB to " throw out / buy out " a Satsangi as opposed to a non-believer.

On another occasion RSSB made sure that a subway line was diverted in Delhi and had thousands of followers sign a mass petition and stage a rally in protest. Then there is that 108 million USD land-deal in Ahmedabad and there is no evidence, as yet, about where those funds are. The fact remains that RSSB's real-estate assets are the largest amongst spiritual missions, and RSSB does minimal charity - just enough to maintain the trust's status as a non-profit spiritual organization.

04. Yes, the source ( www.watchoutinvestors.com ) has given accurate information and this website is owned by the Investor Education and Protection Fund which is a part of the Ministry of Corporate Affairs, Government of India. I do not know of any other SEBI disclosed violations. It seems like most of the questionable activities are done between the RSSB-trust and Religare before the " official documents " hit the floor.

The RSSB-trust is an autonomous body and is closed to external auditing. Religare's auditors are PWC's Indian affiliate who are famous for their involvement in the Satyam scandal in recent years. http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=newsarchive&sid=ar6hB_Hr347E

05. Interesting question. If you look at Page-94 of the Religare Prospectus you will find a board member and initiate named Mr. Deepak Ramchand Sabnani who has the foreign directorship of the ( RSSB ) Science of the Soul Study Centre International Limited which is an RSSB registered charity. What is a non-profit RSSB subsidiary doing on the corporate prospectus of Religare ? This is another link that proves that Religare board members who are initiates have also been given important roles within RSSB. I have learnt that business is preferentially given to the Guru's " inner circle " members who are also his close friends. http://www.sebi.gov.in/dp/reldraft.pdf http://www.scienceofthesoul.org

06. There is no concrete proof of the RSSB-trust funding Religare at the time of its inception. However, some facts to consider are - A. The only people on the Indian billionaires list who do not have a cataloged history of family business are Gurpreet and Gurkirat, the Guru's two sons.

( The Singh brothers cannot be considered " family " in this regard as they " got into business " with Gurinder only in 2006, prior to which Gurinder had nothing to do with Ranbaxy and had no business of his own. ) B. There is no road-map to indicate how the Guru and his sons became ( now the largest ) shareholders of a two billion dollar company... ( ?? ) C. Why were shares transferred at a pre-issue price to Gurpreet and Gurkirat only ? Why is Gurpreet nowhere to be seen on the Religare India website ? Why is he tucked away in London ? Why has he never been interviewed ?

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Brian, you've touched upon something interesting in this post. I was talking to a fringe-Satsangi the other day, and we both agreed that your devotion to RS Sant Mat was exemplary and you were probably what RSSB would call a ' perfect devotee ' back in the day.

Which brought me to a mini-conclusion : we have examples of some ' perfect ' devotees ( and I use this word kind of loosely as according to the RS doctrine we're imperfect ) so people like you and my father were / are what I can safely call ' prototypes ' of perfect RS devotees. I've seen my father meditate at 4am and your wife has seen you do the same and volunteer for a ' night-seva ' duty outside the Guru's residence.

Our near and dear ones know some facts about us. Well, what do we know about the Guru ? Very little, IMO. Okay, Gurinder may not be willing to perform miracles or give us descriptive details of supreme regions, but surely, on the ' human ' side of things, as he is God In HUMAN Form, it may be good to let devotees in on some ' demonstrable ' human activities. Like, for starters, is he giving 1/10th of his earnings from Religare into charity as prescribed by the teachings ? It seems like the ' this-is-how-you-do-it ' demo is missing on all levels.

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This comment is a reply to the sender of the email that Brian has posted above - July 20, 2010 at 8:00pm. Sender, please excuse me if at any point you find my tone offensive. SENDER says - In your post ' RSSB's ties to Religare mix money and spirituality... ' what proof do you have that the RSSB Guru ( Baba Ji ) literally runs the company ? That he makes all the important decisions and spends a considerable amount of time driving the business ? And if he is making millions for his family and kids, is that such a big crime ? In America we do that, we call it capitalism.

 

Reply - I hope you know that the Guru and his family are the largest shareholders of the company : Religare. The business model was conceived by Gurinder, and the Singh brothers are just a front-face of the company. In the second quarter of 2009, some members of the Religare top-brass understood that ' orders ' were coming not from the CEO but from a ' higher source ' and that the CEO was nothing but a pawn in the hands of a ' Guru ' who was taking all the decisions - but was actually incognito.

 

They soon discovered that a shareholder by the name of ' Gurpreet Dhillon ' who was tucked away in the London office was actually the son of the leader of a large spiritual sect. A little more inquiry lead to further details that uncovered Gurinder Singh Dhillon of RSSB as the founder and ' hidden ' head-honcho of Religare. ( How the leader of a spiritual sect managed to set up and drive a billion dollar company is another issue, one that I'm not going to talk about at the moment. )

 

Now, lets talk about Charlie's Angels. The CEO of Religare Enterprises Ltd. is an initiate named Mr. Sunil Godhwani - the personal treasurer and right-hand man of the Guru. He is also the Guru's long-time friend. Closed-door meetings are often held at Mr. Sunil Godhwani's farmhouse in New Delhi and the Guru is constantly in touch with him on the phone when they're apart. ( Even the chauffeurs know about this ! )

 

Mr. Godhwani's residence is the Guru's home for all ' unofficial ' visits into the capital. How do I know this ? A close family has a relative who works for Religare, and I'm good friends with people who are well connected with the ' inner circle ' members. This information has also been confirmed by a dozen well known people from the Indian financial sector.

 

You're talking about capitalism ? This is not capitalism, this is a big guerilla coup ! Usually, there's always something shady when someone is hiding something, and your ' Baba Ji ' clearly has a lot to hide. Otherwise, why hasn't he come out in the open ? Why is this something that needs to be rationalized ?

 

SENDER says - You've heard of Rev. Joel Osteen, I'm sure, http://www.joelosteen.com or maybe seen his weekly TV programs. He is a Christian minister, and spiritual leader from Houston, Texas. I'm sure he's very savvy when it comes to business and making money, and there's no doubt in my mind that he's a multimillionaire. I'm sure his kids are millionaires too, thanks to Joel. His books have been on the NY Times best selling author list - many times. He's rolling in money !

 

Reply - I doubt if Joel's bestsellers would be describing him as a GIHF and he probably not handing out ' rennet free cheese ' lists to his faithful.

 

SENDER says - My question to you is this - Does it spiritually matter that Joel Osteen is making big money for his family and kids and still running a big Church like Lakewood ? I'm sure he has lots of insider trading tips from his Texan buddies and Christian associates too. That's called networking, and we all do it.

 

Reply - Does it spiritually matter... ? Sorry, but I think your idea of morality can do with some kindergarden basics, seems like you missed ' ethics ' class in school.

 

SENDER says - Yet, when an eastern Master like Baba Ji does the same thing, we are quick to blast him and criticize him. We think that the eastern Guru should be in sandals, simple, poor, and his family should be poor too. Why the double standards ?

 

Reply - I do not want my spiritual Master to be poor, but I think I'd expect him to practice what he preaches. Gurinder Singh's business operations are a clear departure from the teachings of RS Sant Mat. I think your ' Baba Ji ' is the one who has double standards - he talks about detachment, but silently runs a billion dollar company.

 

SENDER says - Anyhow, I'm sure Baba Ji and his family are giving lots of money to help run the Dera, and all the centers he has around the world. Its not cheap to run these places. I know that I stayed at the Dera for a month once and didn't have to pay a dime for the room and board.

 

Reply - That is totally incorrect. Dera is a self-sustaining economy which is run by the money that comes from donations by the Sangat and all operations are carried out by volunteers. RSSB centers ( in India and around the world ) are built and maintained by volunteers, so it is rather cheap to ' run ' these places. It is all monetary or physical ' Seva ' by the Sangat in every way, but it is the RSSB trust that owns these properties. RSSB has cut back on all charitable activities, so it is not likely that the Guru's family are giving anything at all !

 

You didn't pay a dime for the boarding & lodging at the Dera... Well, that was Charan Singh's idea, thank him for that. I wonder what Gurinder would have done ! SENDER says - Anyhow, waiting to hear from you. Thanks. Reply - Would you like to have a dialogue via private email ? Any more questions ? It may be a good idea to step out of your cowardice and post your thoughts on the blog, trust me, you'll not have killed a holy cow.

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Nietzsche, IMO, the RS philosophy is designed to confuse. It is contradictory and anti-life. It requires a total shutdown of reason, logic and intuition. Sant Mat aside, there has been a huge shift in the values and ideology that defined the RS sect in the days of Charan. I was brought up with the RS belief system, so it was twice as difficult for me to let go of it !

 

It is a long story Nietzsche... Lets just say that there came a point where I found myself totally confused. I stopped trusting myself and my instincts. I was being pulled in two opposite directions - one that was telling me to listen to my inner voice that said that RS was a big farce, and the other which was constantly nudging me back to my conditioned roots and my little ' RS world ' that came with it.

 

As a series of events unfolded at the end of last year, I decided to get out of the box. It was a liberating experience, I was relieved when I came face to face with my true feelings. I guess I was tired of the hypocrisies and lack of compassion that I often witnessed.

 

I've had many dreams of Sawan and Charan, even Gurinder. Those were stemming from the love and admiration that I had for them. Now I have dreams of fluorescent oceans and talking fish - I'm planning on building an eco-friendly holiday home in Goa. I think we often underestimate the power of imagination. My life is as miracle-full or as miracle-empty as it was when I was on the RS path. Actually, everything is just great ! However, the absence of fear and guilt has given me a renewed sense of freedom.

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Nietzsche, The whole idea of being ' humble ' in RSSB is basically to restrict credit or praise where it is due. On the other hand, Gurinder devours the attention and adoration that is bestowed on him by the Sangat. Its something like a beehive - where Gurinder is the queen-bee and the rest are worker-bees. ( Actually, there are all sorts of bees in the higher ranks as well... )

 

I've had a number of conversations with Gurinder and he's clearly enjoying his power and position. He seems to have a condescending attitude towards the less privileged and rarely meets followers from the poorer sections of the Sangat. I've seen his personal security rudely push an elderly man just because he was standing close to a waiting Mercedes that was parked for him.

 

If it wasn't for the legacy that Charan left, Gurinder wouldn't have survived a day of his Gurudom. Charan could have left the ' gaddi ' to a goose and the RS following would believe that that the goose was now the new GIG ( goose ) F.

 

Unfortunately, the education level of the majority of the Sangat is so low that they buy into the RS BS. For the rural villagers, a promise of salvation is like rain on a hot day - they don't want to come back to their life of misery and would do anything to improve their present condition : donate their pennies, do physical Seva, queue up for long hours to catch a glimpse of the Guru etc.

 

That's exactly where cult control tactics come in and RSSB takes full advantage of the naivety and innocence of these people. Its important to note that RSSB never stresses on the importance of education. They want the Sangat to remain backward, uneducated and involved in Seva - their survival and growth depends on it. 

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satsangi, I'm sorry to learn that my comments have upset you, my apologies. However, maybe there are some opinions that you identify with and maybe they are in conflict with your belief system. FYI dude, I live in India too. ( My family members have been RS's through generations, though we are Sikhs by descent. )

 

The farmland and diversion of the river-bank issue has been going on for over a decade, which I closely followed even before I was initiated. So, its not like I'm making assumptions. Don't talk about Gurinder not wanting to show-off or being secretive about his charity.

 

RSSB has listed every small thing that they have done in the past ( there are about six or seven mid-size projects that you can read about on their website ) and sadly there is not much more that they have done for humanity or the poorer amongst their Sangat. I do not see how million-dollar investments in properties abroad will help the Sangat, when those funds can be used for basic healthcare and education for the rural Sangat's families and children.

 

What do you think ? And, what's the obsession with fancy cars ? I thought that a ' Perfect Master ' would be above the material world. About the Shabads... I am referring to the Shabads that have been banned from internal usage within the RSSB Satsangs, so thanks for educating me about their external misuse ! ( I had a good laugh at you naivety... ) Here is the list, please note that some of them were Charan's favorites - Aad Niranjan Prabh Nirankara - Guru Arjun Dev Ji Namey He Tey Sabhu Kichhu Hoa - Guru Amar Das Ji Dil Ka Hujra Saaf Kar- Tulsi Sahib Har Ki Pooja Dulambh Hai Santo - Guru Amar Das Ji Jag Main Ghor Andhera Bhari - Soami Ji Dhun Sun Kar Man Samjhayee - Soami Ji Do go and check with RS representatives in Mumbai and Delhi to confirm the same.

 

Of course you'll find a way to rationalize and justify this, but I still suggest you to go ahead and find out things for yourself. I do not subscribe to rumors, everything that I have written on this blog is either my own experience and opinion, or has come from a dependable source - like people who are high rankers in the RS community. Finally, like tAo said, you don't know anything about me, so I don't think you're in a position to judge. And, I don't think my de-conversion was about a lack of thrust, it was more about realizing that the current Guru is totally out of line with what Beas once stood for.

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Bernie, I don't agree with you and here's why - RRSB is a hierarchical organization - a poor follower from the village may never be able to meet the Guru, but a rich follower most probably will. All decisions of the Guru are final and unquestionable at every level.

 

An elitist ' inner-circle ' comprising of the Guru's business aides are high-ranked members of the sect. RSSB exercises control over its followers by inducing guilt and fear through their Satsangs and literature. This in turn helps drive the extreme vows that RSSB stands for.

The RSSB asset-corpus is one of the largest in the world amongst spiritual sects, and they continue to acquire more property. A large chunk of land that was bought by donations ( mostly from the poor ) has been sold at a huge profit - there is no clarity about where the funds have been redirected. There is little or no initiative towards humanitarian or charitable activities.

RSSB exploits people through Seva or volunteer work, which is usually directed towards the expansion of the mission in one way or the other.

Though the RS meditation is supposed to be the central tenet of discipleship, discussion about progress in meditation is forbidden. RS-Sant Mat is in many ways dogmatic and ritualistic, but the scorn upon the same when they talk about other religions. All of the above is invisible when you're a believer of the RS path. I'd rather be a practicing Christian, Sikh, Hindu, Buddhist or whatever... Anything is better than RS-Sant Mat.

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dman, Roger... I was often corrected by RSSB representatives for questioning fellow and older initiates about their spiritual progress. The reason I began to doubt the whole system stemmed from my opinion that RS-mantra meditation was unproductive for almost everyone practicing it. There was neither any 'spiritual' progress for them, nor were they outwardly relaxed and at peace with the world around them.

Satsangis usually attribute the smallest of their problems to the 'karma' rhetoric and have an overbearing sense of dependence on the guru. To add to that, many appear depressed, dejected or frustrated because at some level they feel that their efforts are futile. A few weeks ago, I bumped into a young ( Indian ) satsangi couple at a bar. They hung around till 2am sipping diet-coke and enviously gazing at groups of people around who were dancing and enjoying themselves. On their way out they said a cold 'hello' to my friends, then looked at our table and gave me a horrid 'you're-going-straight-to-hell' kinda look... :)

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Catherine !! I'm Tara, she is Nayantara. ( Before people think she's the one who's blogging here... LOL !! ) In your comment above, I assume you are referring to Religare. Religare is a for-profit company and the RS ' inner circle ' members make up the top-brass. They are handsomely paid, far more than what they would otherwise get ( for their level of competence ) in other financial services companies.

 

The rest of the employees are ' normal ' people who are hired and paid for their respective roles, but cannot consume non-vegetarian fare in the office premises as one of the rules of the company. Religare is known for its bad corporate governance and its RSSB-like hierarchy, though in this case the Guru is pretty much incognito !

I learnt that the Religare cafeteria is very unhygienic and the restrooms seldom have soap. People are fired unceremoniously, mostly without a reason. Quite mismanaged for God's own company... ( ?? ) This is how things work - Gurinder needs loyal people to stick with Religare as he has big plans for his company. Who would be better than RS initiates ? They look upon him as God so every decision ( right or wrong ) would be regarded as the ' Will of God ' while he gets away without challenge or criticism. The ' higher-ups ' believe that they have been taken care of in every sense, worldly and post-worldly ( Swarath & Parmarath ) so, if you see it from their perspective, they think they couldn't have had it better !

These people and their families are raking it in - physical proximity to the GIHF plus material benefits, all by his grace ! Even though they seem to be staunch followers of the path, they collectively lack the most basic of social skills and some of them have crossed over to being comically hostile. IMO, all the people close to Gurinder have doubts about him being the real deal, but they are playing along with with the guru-game as somewhere down the line they are benefiting - through plump placements within Religare and Fortis, through business alliances that come with the expansion of these companies, through getting better networked for their own personal gains...

 

Then there are the other followers who see him perched on a pristine dais as the Shabd Incarnate - Westerners who seek out the RS philosophy through the meditation technique, Indians ( like myself ) who are born into RS following families who have unconditional faith, new-age ( fanatic ) converts, teary-eyed villagers who abound with tales of miracles and mercy, Charan's old flock who are in silent confusion... There is a big difference between the people who are close to Gurinder and the ones who perceive him as God. Faith is best kept from a distance... :) I guess when you're obsessed with something, more often than not, anything about it is fairly easy to rationalize.

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<<< Robert, thanks for your story. Unfortunately, I cannot drop names here as the Indian RS social network will ostracize some of my friends if I do... >>> Well, there is a man who's a part of the RS ' inner circle ' and has has become very busy with the affairs of Religare. I heard that Gurinder told him to meditate when he finds the time... ( ?? ) Having known this man for more than a decade, I can safely conclude that he's gone from being a jerk to a being a mighty jerk.

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Robert, you have me confused ! You write - " The Guru is meant to equal God... " So you do subscribe to the GIHF thing, right ? Can you imagine Fakir Chand pulling off a Religare during his time ? I cannot ! And no, a big no, the Master is not a mirror. He is a mirage that is conjured up by the hallucination of one's own imagination. Perceive him as the ' Shabd Incarnate ' and you'll see him that way, perceive him as an ordinary human being and you'll begin to see him like one of us - it is all in the mind. This ' mirror ' thing is mere story telling by RSSB via their cleverly crafted writings to make you feel like shit.

You write - " It can be difficult to have faith in him if we were somehow closely connected to him physically... " Obviously ! Thats how you'll discover the ' real ' Gurinder - an impostor. He is a calculative, shrewd, stony-hearted, power hungry schmuck. Spend some time with him and the ' inner circle ' and you'll reach for the next muffin you'll find. Do you think that any of his core group members are interested in spirituality ? That would be a joke ! These clowns are busy stuffing their pockets with cash as they load up more for Gurinder on the Religare money-train.

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Robert - For almost two years before my departure from RSSB, I enjoyed a neutral, liberalistic view of RS Sant Mat. On the other hand, having met Gurinder several times, I rationalized his apparent imperfections almost subconsciously. My devotion was more of a crutch, a habitual idolization.

Then as time went by, I realised that my perception of RS Sant Mat was stuck in my own childhood, during the last years of Charan Singh. As an adult, the more I got to know Gurinder and the ' inner circle ' the more uncomfortable I felt. Things that I saw and heard felt against the basic grain of what I had learnt about Sant Mat.

It was not easy to address this internally, so for a real long time I ' hung on ' taking refuge in justifying the hypocrisies. The RS philosophy is not straightforward and many aspects are open to personal interpretation. Your idea of the ' real higher self ' maybe radically different from what a pure cultist believes.

------------------

 

SHOCKING !!! Thanks for putting up this information Brian. Strange, I got a call from my cousin this morning and he was telling me the same... :) The more I learn about Gurinder, the less I feel I know ! It saddens me to see what RSSB has become. I hope these articles will be the last straw in the hat for some of my relatives who were left undecided after the Religare exposé. Money from the Ahmedabad land deal is going to go straight into Religare, no doubt about that ! And, how I wish the government comes cracking down on RSSB for the river encroachment issue. Gurinder is very well networked politically, but I hope that the poor farmers get justice this time.

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Deepak - Interesting point, RS does not appeal to the educated lot and to the younger generation in India. The innocent and gullible villagers make up 95 percent of the devotee-bank. Hukai - Self help is great, bettering the world - even greater ! And, improving one's external conditions - that's exactly what the RS guru is doing. So what do you think is better : A. A whole lot of practical mumbo jumbo that addresses your present life. B. A whole lot of authoritarian mumbo jumbo that clearly contradicts the karma rhetoric within its writings.

------------------

 

Hi Deepak, the RSSB representatives gave me that book after the initiation ceremony. Though my translation of the title was ' Earning Your Living Through Rightful & Honest Means ' it has a farmer tilling his field with a cattle-plough on the cover. So, on one hand, RSSB distributes this book after initiation. But, on the other, the Guru's 20 year old son is gifted with a ten-percent equity of a one billion dollar company he has never worked a single day for !

This is an absolute contradiction. What applies to the Sangat must first apply to the Guru and his family. What about the karmic implications of these deals, I wonder... There were always questionable aspects about the RS theology to begin with, even in the days of Charan Singh and the other Great Masters. However, Gurinder has taken his ' gurudom ' to an entirely new level ! If you are a journalist based in India, it would be great if you know someone who might be interested to do a story. Many are ready to give their inputs.

------------------

 

tk : Until a few weeks ago, no one was aware that the RS guru and his family are the co-owners of a two billion dollar financial services company. This has caught every single follower by surprise. RSSB and the guru have obviously kept this cleverly under wraps ! I feel uncomfortable when a mystic figure talks about detachment on one hand, and practices quite the opposite, on the other. What one can get from SEBI ( and partly over the Internet ) are the quarterly and annual results of Religare. But, cross-holding patterns and detailed investor information may be hard to procure as those are confidentially secure with the Religare top-brass, which in this case are the RSSB higher-ups.

------------------

Hi Undecided, Religare was founded in 2006. http://www.linkedin.com/companies/religare The shares were issued to the Guru's family at INR 10 per share before the company went for an IPO on October 29, 2007. As of this morning, Religare's market cap is INR 5061.93 Crores, so you can do the math if the family owns twenty percent of it !

 

Some people also say that they own much more than 20 percent. I heard a few days ago that Malvinder Singh and Shivinder Singh had only a 30 percent stake in Religare now - that too should be verifiable if you have the patience to do an extensive online search. The 30 percent shareholding of Malvinder and Shivinder was also mentioned in a recent article in the print media in India, if I recollect correctly.

 

The eye camps have been closed for over four or five years now. Just ask any representative of RSSB in your city, they will confirm it. I don't know the reason for this, and nor do some of the older Satsangis I have spoken to. Most of them sum it up to the ' mauj ' of the guru or give a similar ( vague ) answer.

 

Yes, I agree with you, all this information put together becomes a real problem for those who are staunch RS believers, specially for the older generation who are Charan's initiates - it becomes difficult to rationalize. It is impossible to look at RS spirituality in isolation, when the guru is involved with transactions amounting to millions of dollars.

 

All of this feels completely wrong then ! My family and their RS friends do not know what to make of this. ( I guess it is imperative at this point to have faith in one's own wings and in one's own judgement. ) Some of them have gone back to their traditional faith - Sikhism.

 

A snippet from a newspaper article that RSSB has published on its website - " Sant Mat does not require asceticism but asks for complete detachment from every activity that retards the progress of the soul. To eat the simplest and purest nourishment definitely helps in controlling the five passions - lust, anger, greed, attachment and egotism. High ethical and moral life is necessary for spiritual progress and God realization. This path also enjoins the followers to earn their livelihood by honest means. The Master himself rigidly follows this principle and accepts nothing from his disciples. " http://www.rssb.org/articles.php Read No. 6 - The Radha Soami Way of God Realization.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Comments

[Spencer Tepper]

"And no, a big no, the Master is not a mirror. He is a mirage that is conjured up by the hallucination of one's own imagination. Perceive him as the ' Shabd Incarnate ' and you'll see him that way, perceive him as an ordinary human being and you'll begin to see him like one of us - it is all in the mind. "

Perceive him as corrupt and you will see him that way, too.
Then every facial expression, every gesture will appear filled with all that you hate.

Yes, the author saw the hallucination of her own imagination.

And the cause? Her own fear and guilt.

" However, the absence of fear and guilt has given me a renewed sense of freedom."

What did she fear? What was the cause of the guilt?

Projecting the problem onto someone else is not unusual. But it solves nothing. And it means judging the internal experiences of those she doesn't agree with as wrong, as hallucination.

When you must judge so many people you don't know as wrong, simply because they believe something you don't, it's a big arrow pointing back to oneself.

Too bad she missed the point of Sant Mat, which is the practice of meditation.

Then she might have something else to report.

Because you can't sit in meditation without letting go of fear and guilt. And blame placing, and accusation and hate.

Your mind will force you to deal with those things simply to be able to sit in that darkness, in that emptiness. And you will have to find a way to let them go. The reward is integration of the subconscious, pure bliss. But to get there the tyrannny of the objective mind must submit to the partnership of the subjective, the unconscious; the internal and hidden self.

So long as one has an axe to grind everyone who disagrees with them will be wrong, foolish, deluded.

And until you put down that beloved axe, which has now become your identity, your persona, you will see a thief under every bed, and every smile will appear forced, and every genuine offer of help will seem insincere.

And trust and happiness will be elusive.

A good therapist may help you sharpen your axe.

A better thrapist will help you see the enemy, the hallucination, the projection is within you.

Then setting aside your intractable dichotomy of Me right You wrong, you will see all sides, not just your side.

And in that silence witness the ineffable. Then you become thankful to all the flawed people who brought you, another flawed being, into an experience of the divine much more real and powerful than your self justifying depictions of other people. They weren't so bad after all. They were just people, flaws and all.

Meditation is the best means to bring the light that abolishes these shadows, these personal character judgments we make without any real tangible concrete evidence except gossip and judgments and inflations of petty things because we have not yet experienced the big things.

"I guess when you're obsessed with something, more often than not, anything about it is fairly easy to rationalize.."

That cuts both ways.

[vinny]

Disgruntled followers are not uncommon, the moral code of Sant-mat demands moral perfection. I don't think it is the path of casual householders. Radha Swami cosmology directly speaks about divine light and sound which is completely different from other religions in which the light and sound is allegorical. The path is pure and simple asceticism/monasticism presented as palatable pill to the householder. I think he travels in private jets bought by the money donated to the organization, nothing wrong in that. if he is diverting the money to some other organization in lieu of benefits to his children/family, that can be extremely dubious and against the tenets of sant mat.

[Tim]

This is how Brian works. Hi wants to attract Tara to him so he is writing this blog and also with Gurinder name on so the attraction plan is perfect. Independency day yea right...Gurinder always helped you attract readers Brian. But as usually you will now go and defend yourself like you always do. You rarely accepted critic. Oh Tara please come dont you see Brian got miserable to find you.

[Arjuna]

@ Spencer - love reading your responses - you kill it man lol

[One Initiated]

Wow Brian,

That was a very catchy title to the post,
however I got disappointed after reading first paragraph.

It could better be titled as Tara's Comments

I thought you only republish your old books.

[Arjuna]

Master invited Kareena Kapoor and shahid to his holiday home in India.

Lol. He permits people to live In sin now under his own roof.

Seriously guys and girls - leave this post do what you want - fuck, drink and party like there is no tomorrow. There is no inner existence -if any of you claim to have seen it - who was your drugs supplier looool.

@ Brian - your name will go down in history. You are the Snowden of this era. Excellent work and fuck what people say here.

[manjit]

This is an absolutely fantastic post, breath-taking, insightful, informative, laced throughout with truth etc.

In relation to RSSB, this is one of the most important posts or blog entries I've ever read.

Essential.

Thank you Tara for sharing and Brian for compiling, this is a terrific seva.

Ps, you both understand the critical comments you will get here, and the emotionally defensive space they're coming from, and how utterly incoherent they are. They are an indication of just how important this blog post is!

Thank you very, very much.

Manjit

[Spencer Tepper]

. Hi Arjuna
You wrote
"There is no inner existence -if any of you claim to have seen it - who was your drugs supplier looool."

Everyone has an inner existence. It's called the subconscious. It holds influence over us. It pushes us to act bravely when we want to ignore those who need our help. It also tempts us to take what does not belong to us. It forces us to speak out against injustice at great personal cost. It fills us with fear so that we are terrorized by harmless shadows and remain silent amidst injustice, or worse, in fear side with tyrants.

Or it feeds us fear and anxiety so subtly we don't see how it is effecting us. Only that today we are a little less generous, a little less caring and sensitive to the plight of children. Today we have a little less enthusiasm, perhaps because of what we did yesterday but weren't aware of. It tells us when we have done wrong and feeds us guilt.

And sometimes it is right. At other times it is wrong.

It is our own puppet master. It makes us act even when we know our action is wrong. And yet it also pushes us to do the right thing at exactly the right moment.

How do we free ourselves of its tyranny? He do we understand the depths of its wisdom, our very conscience?

It is like an insect we find crawling in our home. We try to capture it on a piece of paper to free it, but it runs from our aid. In some ways it is blind. In others, all seeing.

Under its influence wars and the blood of innocents have been shed throughout human history. It endangers itself blindly.

Under its influence every great accomplishment that had no conceivable possibility or support became real and changed the world for the better.

How to help overcome this part of ourselves? How to learn from it?

Meditation.

Through meditation we learn more about what is inside us and integrate with those things we don't see today but which influence us.

Only then can we see, if not perfectly, .at least better.

And in place of anxiety and depression, regular periods of immeasurable ecstatic joy, peace, and harmony.

Arjuna, get to know your own inner drug dealer. They are also your counselor. Because no matter how hard you try to run from him, you cannot.

The mind is a neighborhood. Make it a brotherhood.

[Marko]

If anybody finds Tara please let me know i lost contact with her because of my broken computer years ago. Tara if you read this i miss you .. You are a great person and i enjoyed our conversation you need to hear my music...love.m

[Arjuna]

@ Spencer hello. I like you.

Are you initiated?????

[Spencer Tepper]

Hi Arjuna

As I watched TV in my studio apartment there was Mt. St. Helen's erupting live on the news , to the shock of the world. And as the blowing clouds burst skyward and thunderous explosions roared I opened an invitation that had arrived in the mail. The Master had accepted me for initiation.

That was May 18th, 1980. I was 22 years old and a graduate student in Experimental Psychology, doing research on Meditation and anxiety.

My initiation took place in Riverside California in July, at the home of Roland DeVries.

[Spencer Tepper]

July 17th, 1980 was my Independence Day!

[Arjuna]

@ Spencer - Maharaj Charan Singh Ji got of his chair in the stage and walked to the end of the stage with folded arms and looked down at me and smiled. I was holding my mothers hand when we’re went around for Darshan. I was 8.

Arh you are a student of the mind - we’ll in this world

[Arjuna]

@ Spencer - I have read all posts above - if Dera Beas RSSB is taking money of the poor and won’t let anyone investigate, do we have a world wide organisation who can go through their accounts.

That story about that couple asking questions about their funds and being man handled out and being told they have no faith and should not attend satsang is highly disturbing.

It pisses me right of rich people who steal from the poor. Who can investigate the RSSB cartel?

That way I get my peace on that I will know if he was real and then I’m sorry and if he isn’t - no worries. I will strive to be a just human unlike sevadars at beas.

That place must be investigated! Period!!!!

[One Initiated]

Manjit,

Your comment is as lame as this blog post.

Don't try to be over smart and try to fool the readers by pre-labelling that as great content
even before receiving any counter comments.

You also need to understand that you are not the lone astral walker in the world.

Appears that Brian didn't have anything meaningful to write or discuss today.

Probably the comments on this post are going to be more interesting
than the post per se,
except the above comment of yours,
which was just like putting water in the mud - making it appear even dirtier.

[Jim Sutherland]

Brain, .....this is real powerful stuff. I obviousy have read many of Tara’s posts, over the years, when I checked in here, but have to confess, it was while reading thru different shades of glasses than before my first visit to the Dera Oct. 2017. Linking the Tara Posts all together, is like a Book in itself. And not to be taken lightly, or brushed away by Westerners who have never been exposed to the inner Circle of RSSB as Tara claims to have grown up in to.

Of course, we still have the Sant Mat Path, the Philosophy, the “ Science of the Soul” Techique of Meditation to try for our indvidual selves, to experience the Truth or Fraud of the Sant Mat Path.

Then, of course, we have the Unveiling of Guru Magic by Fakir Chand, exposing Inner Radiant Forms appearing to all of us who have witnessed them manifest.

So, where are we now?

I know where I am.

But what about young and old Seekers still on the fence? Some are still considering asking Gurinder for Initiation.

Others have already discarded him, regardless of huge the RSSB STAR Ship Sach Khand Express, has grown to be, but are still enticed by the Sant Mat Philosophy, so have moved on to other Gurus such as Dr. Ishwar Puri, Rajinder Singh, or any of the ofhers in other Sant Mat Branches.

But is Sant Mat Philosophy a Scam, and fradulant Cult over all, because of how the Spot light has been shined on Gurinder Singh Dhillon and his activites by disgruntled Ex-Sats like Tara who have posted here, in addition to the majority of others, with very little actual opposition from bonified, True Blue, Faithful, still convinced, Desciples of Gurinder Singh, and RSSB?

To me, only Professor David Lane can set the Record straight and silence the Taras, and other Ex-Sats, like Brian, even, as well as all of the other Charan Initiates, both Exers, and RSSB Old Times still loyal to Charan, but disillusioned by GSD and no longer involved with RSSB publically.

But David Lane is still actively involved with RSSB, attents Satsangs, and was seen attending the recent Petaluma California event that Gurinder Singh visited.

So, what is some one still on the fence, so to speak, suppose to believe, in order to make such as serious decision, as to ask Gurinder Singh for Initition or not?

Professor David Lane owes every one who has ever read his Articles, Books, and forum posts being critical of Gurinder Singh and RSSB over the last two decades, and come out of hiding, and honestly set the Record straight, about,....

WHY,...oh WHY sould every one ignore Tara’s and other’s negative past posts regarding GSD including yours, Dr. Lane, when you could confess why you have returned to the RSSB Sangat? ,

Jim Sutherland

[Spencer Tepper]

A lion may appear at the mouth of the cave, protecting the treasure.

But the treasure, which is within you and nowhere else, is also within our grasp. When the lion roars out 'the treasure is in you' , and you refuse to acknowledge that, blaming the lion for being impolite, then of course that is a personal issue. The lion is doing its job.

[tucson]

I agree with Manjit that Tara was right on target. I didn't read her comments on this post because I didn't need to. I read them years ago. She was great. I am happy to be reminded of her.

Some comments here criticize Tara's understanding of the RS path. This is a rationalization to delegitimize her observations and opinion. Who better to comment on RS than someone who was a satsangi of long standing and grew up in a family of generations of Satsangis and spent much time at the Dera, etc.

It comes down to this.. If you have invested yourself emotionally with the Sant Mat path, it has you hook, line and sinker. It is your faith, the pillar upon which your life rests. You will rationalize away every detraction and critique. But to the outsider, or if your emotional investment in the path gets derailed, even if for only a moment, then all Tara says makes sense and becomes very clear.

[Brian Hines]

As I expected, and exactly as Tara pointed out in many of her comments, commenters on this post who are RSSB True Believers are defending the indefensible behavior of guru Gurinder Singh and the altering of the RSSB organization into a money machine that has made the guru and his family super-rich.

Psychologists have a word for this: "motivated reasoning." Here's an excerpt from the Wikipedia article on this subject:
-------------
The processes of motivated reasoning are a type of inferred justification strategy which is used to mitigate cognitive dissonance. When people form and cling to false beliefs despite overwhelming evidence, the phenomenon is labeled "motivated reasoning". In other words, "rather than search rationally for information that either confirms or disconfirms a particular belief, people actually seek out information that confirms what they already believe".[2] This is "a form of implicit emotion regulation in which the brain converges on judgments that minimize negative and maximize positive affect states associated with threat to or attainment of motives".[3]
-------------
In other words, those who are motivated to continue believing in the lies and falsehoods of RSSB discount Tara's compelling descriptions of what she saw and heard as a RSSB insider. Tara herself was courageous enough to battle against her own initial motivated reasoning, which stemmed from her family's four generation history in RSSB, her desire that the RSSB teachings were true, and that Gurinder Singh Dhillon was the elevated spiritual being most of his disciples believe him to be.

With eloquence and honesty, in the comments I shared last night Tara describes how she saw through her mistaken beliefs and chose truth over falsehood.

I'd forgotten about most of Tara's comments, and I'm in charge of this blog. The comments were difficult to find, being scattered over many different posts over five years. So I decided to collect many of them into this blog post so readers of my blog could easily read them.

I find it interesting that so far no one is taking issue with the accuracy of what Tara said, Some commenters are just taking shots at Tara's commitment to meditation, failing to note that, as she reports in her writings, virtually every RSSB initiate she came in contact with during her up-close-and-personal years in Sant Mat reported that they also hadn't experienced the mystical knowledge that RSSB claims to deliver, but fails in doing so.

Sadly, this is the way of the world these days. Too often, truth-tellers are insulted, while those who spout falsehoods are praised. After fourteen years of speaking truth on this blog, I'm no longer surprised when religious true believers ignore facts in front of their eyes, preferring to keep their heads in the sand of dogmatism.

Here's a challenge for the RSSB defenders who frequent this blog: instead of attacking Tara personally, show that what she says in her comments is wrong. Sure, I realize that you won't be able to do this, so I'm confident that few, if any, will take me up on this challenge.

I'm just issuing it to make clear that what Tara says about the guru's highly questionable financial dealings, his lack of interest in charitable activities, the high-flying lifestyle of the guru and his family, the secrecy of RSSB, the lack of compassion for poor Indians, the guru's changing of supposedly unchangeable RSSB teachings, and so on, are uncomfortable truths that RSSB devotees with a head in the sand mentality are extremely reluctant to face directly.

Long ago I made my own commitment to tread the path of truth, no matter how difficult that path was. Like Tara, I'm glad i made that decision to leave the falsehoods of RSSB/Sant Mat and face reality head-on, rather than shying away from it. Hopefully Tara's well-said comments will encourage others to do the same.

[Brian Hines]

I want to make another point. Every organization, and indeed every individual, looks different from the outside than it appears from the inside.

You check into a hotel. The lobby looks beautiful and the woman behind the desk is wonderfully polite. But the kitchen is unsanitary, the housekeeping staff aren't being paid even minimum wage, there's bed bugs in the mattresses, the concierge is getting kickbacks from local businesses.

RSSB is no exception. Tara, and to a lesser extent, me, were able to get to know guru Gurinder Singh and the RSSB organization from an inside perspective that is closed off to most people, including most RSSB initiates.

How Gurinder Singh Dhillon presents himself in public is much different than how he behaves in public. Tara describes this in considerable detail. And even though we all do this to some extent, HOW Gurinder Singh came across in private is what disturbed Tara greatly. She relates how she observed behavior by the guru and his close associates that shook her to the core, eventually leading her to deconvert from the teachings that she once held dear.

Tara showed a lot of courage in being able to do this. She cast light on the shadows of Gurinder Singh and the RSSB organization. Tara deserves much praise for this.

[Arjuna]

@ Brian - can you please recap on how Gurinder presents himself in private?please

[manjit]

Spencer wrote: "Yes, the author saw the hallucination of her own imagination.
And the cause? Her own fear and guilt.
"However, the absence of fear and guilt has given me a renewed sense of freedom."
What did she fear? What was the cause of the guilt?"

Hi Spencer!

I think you're being incredibly unfair by your misrepresentation (mind-reading?) of Tara here.

It is more than obvious Tara can speak for herself, and very eloquently so (when was the last time Tara posted here?!), but if I may speculate without going back and re-reading the full context of your selective quote - but have you considered the "fear" was about leaving the religion she had grown up in? And the "guilt" was actually cognitive dissonance and disappointment at her own self for blindly accepting or ignoring behaviour that was contradictory to what she knew RS and the "Satguru" are supposed to represent?

If that is the case, then that renders the rest of this post of yours irrelevant, if you see what I mean? As it is a tautology (logical fallacy) to claim her concerns are the cause of her concerns :)

In any case, I read Tara as an incredibly honest, intelligent, insightful, non-bitter, open-minded, unbiased (if anything, biased towards RSSB, hence the struggles she has had with her own conscience), eloquent & sincere.

That such a post can draw such obviously ridiculous, irrelevant and desperate comments like Tim's & One Initiated's I find incredibly revealing and utterly transparent in motivation.....fear. From posters who have claimed critics will "have to eat shit and eat it soon", who respond to copious, referenced quotes from the Sri Guru Granth Sahib and rare, old tantric scriptures about shabd that are not easily available to the public & have NEVER been shared on these forums & blogs, typed by hand, as "diaper-mouth" posts, when criticism of RSSB & Gurinder draws claims like "have you noticed how some posters have mental health issues", or some such, you be absolutely certain of one thing.

Fear has them gripped.

They are not ready to "hang by the gallows"; live without any illusory concept or form to support them, as Faqir Chand once said....

Cheers!

[Arjuna]

@ manjit. Hello and well said!

I think most including myself are beyond reason. Most remind me of Neville Chamberlain who after having a meeting with Hitler before WW2 cane back to England and waved a piece of paper as he got of the plane and said “ we have peace in Europe”. Lol. Total denial.

Even in the UK - if you have money you get top priority at Haynes. Don’t need to be in his inner circle to see that. Just need powers of deduction.

To be fair I like Spencer a lot but he does go on a bit too much and hence his message is lost.

Money is king ! It’s simples. Simple and simple

[Spencer Tepper]

Hi Brian

We may have similar thinking but from different sides of experience.

Tara's testimony may be one sided and biased, so that facts may have been adjusted to fit her own sentiments.

The principle of motivated reasoning cuts both ways Brian. An objective review would have to include that possibility for all posters here including you, Tara, myself and others.

Just as you cannot deny the legitimacy of Spiritual experience you haven't witnessed, in the testimony of others who have, much as you try from your perspective, no legitimate commentary can do the same to Tara's testimony except to suggest it is off context and limited by her own judgments.

The path of mysticism has always been a personal relationship to God. Any organization that protects those teachings and provides a good teacher provides a service, even if, as a large organization, with a large membership, it is subject to human failings. Just like you, Tara, myself and others.

The expectation that all Satsangis are beyond such limitations is a fabrication, wishful thinking. It isn't even the teachings, since those are all geared to our personal practice. And about that Tara is mostly silent, as are you.

Before I requested initiation the Satsangi who brought me to the path told me "Spence. There are sevadars at Dera with guns."

Why guns if the Master is perfect?

That misunderstanding was cleared up even before I asked for initiation.

"What about the publications?"

"There is a bit of politics around those" Tommy taught me. And I soon realized that everyone still must live through their own character flaws.

Tommy also taught me "I've got a terrible ego. Don't expect the path to make you a different person. You will have to live through who you are, flaws and all. Changes are very gradual. Just figure some of your corners will get sanded down a bit....Don't trust Satsangis just because they are Satsangis. There are thieves in Satsang. Just like the rest of the world. When you go to Satsang, you will need to filter what you hear. Satsangis always give their own take, but that is limited to their own progress... You must use your own judgment, and remember the path is Meditation. Meditation. Meditation. And building the atmosphere to supporting that. "

It is surprising to read what people write here as if these simple truths flew over their heads in favor of their own magical thinking about Sant Mat. Which, having not seen reality they blame Sant Mat for!

I've had the internal experiences I wrote of, but I also had, perhaps because of them, a completely different understanding of the people in the organization, because I see all of us working through our human limitations.

And some of the Sevadars are indeed models of ego. But if you look carefully, some of them are models of humility and deep spirituality. Simply to glance at them is a moving experience, heart rending, inspiring. To watch those people standing silently at the door, or sweeping floors, to hear even two words from their lips, that is all Dera inside one human being. And there are many of these.

But that Tara may feel she is revealing some hidden truth, and that everyone around her is blind to it, or that all of those of faith are acting selfishly or ignorantly, in her view, is most certainly a perspective we honor, as her report. But we are saddened by the self-imposed poverty her mind lives in, by denying that same respect to others who feel differently.

To think she suffered alone in that perspective, and perhaps still does today, a life without spirituality (the kind that sees spirit In others) without an older sister in the sangat who could say "Yes, some of these people have gotten themselves into nice positions and are proud of it. Just have to ignore some of that. Even they know they are damaged goods. But we've all got to do our duty even with this ego and these character flaws each of us carries. "

Inner truths world be more valuable to seekers of spirituality than this sort of gossip.

To deny or dismiss the legitimacy of meditation and spirituality as in fact Sant Mat and marginalize it in favor a discussion of parsonalities is an immediate false depiction of the purpose of the path.

It is natural for family members of one faith to be involved in that organization, over time. It is natural for you and others doing Seva, to have unspoken roles and expectations for rewarding friendships and personal relationships within any organization you spend your precious time.

But it doesn't always work out that way. Sometimes we are treated roughly, our pride is hurt, and we may lash out at others.

Our doing so may or may not be justified. But should we inflate that into a conspiracy? And should you encourage inflating it further?

But the fact that it is off topic and paints a misleading straw man (that every member of that organization, including its leader is "supposed" to be perfect and omniscient, and perfectly kind and benevolent to our eyes, from our position, and towards us) is almost childlike in its native and seems to me a terrible avoidance of the treasures within us.

Treasures the leader of that organization keeps trying to point to day and night, year in, year out.

So no, we do not deny Tara's experience. We question her negative judgments of those who do not believe as she does. We question your denial of testimonies you would rather not believe.

And we point out this is all a distraction from meditation, spirituality, and our personal progress into eternal (inner) truth.

[Marko]

Brian if you find Tara let her know i am searching for her also.
Tara as Manjit says is honest to the core and very intelligent brave person.
Manjit did you also had private mails with her?

[Brian Hines]

Spencer, it is highly misleading to equate a True Believer form of motivated reasoning with Tara's deconversion from RSSB and Sant Mat.

As Tara repeatedly says, at first she was highly motivated to accept the RSSB teachings and get initiation from Gurinder Singh. After she was initiated she did her best to be a good disciple and not question things.

But as time went on, Tara had the wisdom and courage to reassess her initial motivation. She observed. She questioned. She saw what went on with the guru and his closest associates. She resisted her initial motivations and embraced better ones: a motivation to be truthful, honest, compassionate, charitable, loving.

I resonated with Tara's comments because I went though the same sort of struggle. For 35 years I pushed away my doubts about the veracity of the RSSB teachings because I wanted to believe in them so much. It was very difficult to accept my experience of their falsity, and how the guru wasn't really God in Human Form as the RSSB teachings state.

It is easy to believe in religion. It is much more difficult to pull away from false dogma and see reality as it is, not as how we'd like it to be.

[Joe]

The idea that David Lane will ever step up and take responsibility for the confusion he has caused by speaking out of both sides of his mouth...or is it saying one thing and doing another...is pretty laughable. The good Catholic boy that he is he likes to hedge his bets, personally and professionally, He refuses to admit to any reality other than his own little grey cells but likes to hang out with Gurinder, the leader of a powerful and wealthy religious sect that spouts something entirely different than that. That tells you all you need to know about Mr. Lane. Perhaps like attracts like.

[Spencer Tepper]

Hi Brian

You wrote

"Spencer, it is highly misleading to equate a True Believer form of motivated reasoning with Tara's deconversion from RSSB and Sant Mat."

You may have misunderstood. Motivated reasoning, or simply "justification" can twist our reasoning to defend any position, but specifically the position we happen to hold. That includes you, Tara, and me.

But this very human bias becomes most salient when the narrator cannot find a single reliable witness to the opposing view whom they respect as legitimate in their perspective. As Tara was unable to do.

She does acknowledge her lack of progress in meditation and I think that helps explain her point of view.

Why would anyone stay with the path long if it didn't prove itself in one's own practice?

That being so for Tara, her arguments make sense, in the absence of any reliable spiritual understanding grounded in her daily meditation experience. Pretty basic.

Then there is the second clue to motivated reasoning and that is when the narrator perceives no one else has greater knowledge about the subject than themselves. It's not only a lonely position, but precarious to good discrimination and understanding.

Third, the criticism of all others as less ethical or moral, if not purposefully than out of sheer ignorance and gullibility, then oneself.

Fourth the interpretation of normal human failings as worse when held by those of different beliefs.

These four indicators motivated reasoning, are all evident in Tara's narrative.

[Brian Hines]

Spencer, I'm amazed at your lack of self-understanding. Also, at your lack of understanding of Tara. Have you read all 27,000 words of her comments? i have. Several times. She says that she speaks only of what she actually observed, or what other trusted RSSB insiders have observed.

By contrast, are you a RSSB insider? Have you socialized with Charan Singh and Gurinder Singh? Are you a member of a Sikh family that has four generations of RSSB initiates? Have you personal experience of financial dealings involving Gurinder Singh, RSSB, and the billionaire Singh brothers?

I'm pretty sure I know the answers to these questions. Tara can say "yes" to them. I'm virtually certain that you can't. Yet you claim to know Tara's "spiritual understanding," which quite obviously you consider to be inferior to yours.

We all have blind spots. Yours, to speak frankly, is gigantic. You've become a RSSB defender in much the same way Trump supporters have. Before Trump, there were certain norms that were generally agreed presidents should adhere to, to enhance the public good and trust in government. After Trump was elected, those who uncritically favor him started to say, "Whatever a president does, that's the new norm."

So now it is OK for a president to lie, insult individuals and businesses on Twitter, have a proven history of affairs while married, and such. Similarly, people like you -- but not me or Tara -- have come to accept that whatever Gurinder Singh does is OK, because he is the RSSB guru, and RSSB gurus can do no wrong.

Actually, they can. I challenged you to show that Tara's comments are factually wrong, that somehow they give a mistaken impression of RSSB and Gurinder Singh. You haven't done that, because you can't do that. Tara knows many things about Gurinder Singh and RSSB that you don't know, so your only resort is to judge her spiritual understanding, which, because she has a different view of spirituality than you do, you consider to be inferior to yours.

Tara was humble. Tara came to see things as they are, not as she wanted them to be. This takes a lot of courage. I admire her. Her comments show that she was a deeply spiritual person, regardless of your mistaken view of her.

[Arjuna]

@ Spencer - Brian has floored you with that last blog. The ref is counting and the towel is going in.

[Brian Hines]

Arjuna, regarding how Gurinder Singh presents himself in private, I've only spoken with him about book projects. His tone was polite, businesslike, to the point. I didn't come away feeling like there was anything special about him, mystically or spiritually. I simply felt like I was talking with the CEO of an organization who was handling things competently.

Tara's comments contain information about how she viewed Gurinder Singh in social settings where he was speaking less formally.

[Arjuna]

@ Brian - top man and thanks for sharing.

Define irony? He called me “cheat” once at Haynes whilst playing soccer. Question why? I’ve never committed adultery etc.

It was the last time I saw him

[Jen]

Can anyone verify that Tara is a female. She sounds very much like a male, to me anyway, not at all like the gentle, feminine Indian women satsangis that I have met. Also, sounds so very focussed on the wealth issue. Just something not right about this. Jealousy on her part?

What does it matter anyway, Sant Mat has become a religion and probably lost its true spiritual connection since the teachings of Sawan Singh. I am still sticking to the principles of being vegetarian, no alcohol or mind altering drugs, living a moral lifestyle and this works for me and I'm grateful that I was once a devoted satsangi and now am more independent on my own path.

I'm not a True Believer any more and also not full of anger, hate or envy either! If you feel like you've been misled it was actually your own fault, can't blame anyone else but yourself and don't forget that the very poor in India find comfort from this path and its just a religion anyway like any other on this planet and most of them are fake. The world is very divisive now and I refuse to take sides. Everyone should be their own guru.

Cheers
Jen

[Jen]

I'm so old fashioned in my thinking that maybe someone who is a male is pretending to be a female on line because (in the old days) females were treated differently, well in my experience anyway.

Just remembered about the gender bender social activism taking place nowadays. Oops.

[Brian Hines]

Jen, several times in Tara's comments she says she's a woman. I don't believe I shared those comments in this post, but I distinctly remember them. Even better than remembering... here's one of them:
----------====
Nobody, A small clarification, bear with me... I simply wanted to confirm to you that I am a woman. No " BS " about any feminist leanings in my mind... :) Again, you said " If you want to treat me like an idiot, no problem. " I did not ! My apologies if at any point I came across rude. I mean it. The " blokes " I was referring to are the RSSB management, and the senior RS representatives. They go through this site every now and then to see what we're ( I mean the ex-ers ) are up to. That is all. Good day !

[Jen]

Thanks Brian, I really don't want to hurt anyone's feelings. Its like stepping on egg shells sometimes in this modern world.

I find this interesting: "The " blokes " I was referring to are the RSSB management, and the senior RS representatives. They go through this site every now and then to see what we're ( I mean the ex-ers ) are up to." ... So the RSSB management are keeping an eye on this website!

[Tim Rimmer]

Re Tara

I noticed you asked to be in contact with her the other day Brian? Did you make contact? I presume so - in order to get her OK to get all the above info sorted and posted? I wondered why she no longer posted on this blog as I found her comments really interesting and helpful. I hope she is OK

Best wishes

[Brian Hines]

Tim, no, I haven't been able to make contact with Tara. Regarding her comments, I figured that since they have been publicly available on my blog since Tara posted them, it was fine to assemble them into a blog post where they would be more visible.

I'm really the only person who could do this, since from what I can tell, Google is much better at assimilating my blog posts into its search engine results than it is with assimilating comments. So Tara's comments went into kind of a "nether world" where they were available to be read if someone found a post that she commented on and clicked on the comment link, but not otherwise.

Like you, I also hope Tara is OK. I've sent several emails to the last address I had for her, but haven't gotten a response. Hopefully Tara has simply decided to take a break from social media, and commenting on blogs. I really enjoyed her witty, intelligent, and informed comments. What dismays me is that someone like her would worry about the consequences of being "outed" as no longer believing in the religious philosophy she used to embrace.

It's a sad state of affairs, in India or elsewhere, when people worry about offending religious sensibilities. The way I see it, religious people aren't at all shy about communicating their love for God, Allah, Krishna, a guru, or whatever. So non-religious people should be just as free to express their secular beliefs. Unfortunately, because most people in most societies are religious, the cultural cards are stacked in favor of believers.

[Spence Tepper]

Hi Brian:

You believe Tara is stating ultimate truth about RSSB. Could that be in part because you agree with her views?

And more to the point, her observations match your experience?

That's a normal human thing to do. Agree with those, trust those who agree with you.

I do not doubt her narrative is a clear statement of her perspective, which I honor.

I don't think she wrote anything she didn't believe in.

But hers is not the only honorable perspective.

Her critique of spirituality is so entirely absent that it raises questions.

If you read Manjit's comments, while we have different views, he is entrenched, down to the cellular level, in spirituality.

After all, what is Sant Mat if not the practice of Meditation?

Any view that misses, minimizes, marginalizes these things away as if they are inconsequential is not a complete view. But if you do minimalize these things, what do you have left? An organization of human beings with human flaws.

It's almost a self-fulfilling conclusion, and circular motivated reasoning.

Her lack of contact with anyone who has ever had any inner experiences that she honored raises questions. Perhaps she has had this contact and merely dismissed it.

But in all those 27,000 words about Sant Mat, it is a notable absence. And when she does discuss inner experience, she discounts it entirely. Why then stay in an organization specifically dedicated to developing spirituality if you no longer believe in it?

And if you don't believe, why blame anyone else? It's no one's fault. It's not her fault.

It's her experience, Brian. And there is nothing wrong with that, unless you use it to indict others. Then you must meet the higher standard for ultimate truth.

RE: her lack of spiritual experience, please read those 27,000 words again and you will find this is her own admission, not my interpolation.

Spirituality is a very sensitive subject and we should learn to honor all perspectives, outer and internal, understanding this is someone's testimony from their view.

When you try to raise this into an indictment, you elevate the standard for truth way above what you have here.

Tara did a good job explaining her perspective until she started making editorial comments about others. Those projections and opinions don't actually meet the ultimate truth test. It does meet the personal truth test.

I'm pretty sure reading your book you understand the difference.

[tucson]

Most people have thought about death and its implication of eternal oblivion, annihilation of self consciousness and possibly of consciousness itself. Nothing. Zip. Nada. Forever. Pretty scary. Most people find a way to suppress or ignore this fear via work, family, hobbies, religion and everything else people do.

I was very relieved when I discovered Sant Mat and its promise of life after death with the perfect master in spiritual regions of consciousness and ultimately with God itself. Somehow Sant Mat seemed different to me than other religions like Christianity. But it isn't. It is a faith based religion. No satsangi I have ever known has verified to me their personal experience of the truth of Sant Mat. That the inner regions exist as described and that the master is indeed God.

Can a satsangi honestly verify right here and now that they have been washed clean of their karmic load in Mansorovar, traversed Bank Nal and have merged in Sahaj Dip or even witnessed dweeps of countless exhalted hansas sipping the nectar of shabd in Daswan Dwar? Anyone?

It's just faith. Ya gotta believe in something or you just shrivel up in despair or even abject terror. Right? Go immerse yourself in the whirl of life, endeavors, society to evade this reality knowing in the end you will have to face it. Alone.

It's a numbing feeling to know you have been duped. That you once again have to face that eternal mystery of death with no answers and little hope. Damn! The truth hurts. No more womb of security. Just the yawning maw of the infinite abyss. The unknown. Can you let yourself go in the face of this? Can you surrender to the void? Maybe in doing that you will see that what you were clinging to was an illusion. Never there in the first place. That all along you were free?

So, naturally once you buy into a faith or religion you're going to feel pretty good. Certainly you will dig in your heels hard and resist when someone starts shaking the foundations of this belief. I think this is what is happening here and what it is is exactly clear.

[Brian Hines]

Spencer, you are ignoring the main thrust of Tara's 27,000 words. Try reading her comments again, because your RSSB-loving brain is missing what she emphasized over and over.

(1) Guru Gurinder Singh has become vastly rich during his stint as the RSSB leader, and not in a straightforward, ethical way.

(2) Those who know Gurinder Singh personally, as Tara did, find him to have personal flaws, as we all do.

(3) Under Gurinder Singh's leadership the charitable activities of RSSB have been cut back severely.

(4) Gurinder Singh is promulgating different teachings to Westerners and Easterners/Indians, in an attempt to mass market RSSB.

There's more to Tara's comments than this, but I've hit some key themes. Yet for some reason you keep harping on Tara's meditation life, which wasn't a big concern for her, though it is for you. I'm getting the impression that either you haven't read Tara's comments, or your mind is unable to comprehend what she wrote.

[Spencer Tepper]

Tucson you wrote
"Can a satsangi honestly verify right here and now that they have been washed clean of their karmic load in Mansorovar, traversed Bank Nal and have merged in Sahaj Dip or even witnessed dweeps of countless exhalted hansas sipping the nectar of shabd in Daswan Dwar? Anyone?"

Yes, part of daily practice includes some of those places, and at a few times in my life the entire trip.

But it is impossible for you to understand or believe it. I am taken there, not under my own power. And I'm learning to go there under less dramatic circumstances more reliably with my best Friend.

Help came from older Satsangis I could share this with, older brothers and sisters who helped me figure out how to live with that. Because they had also been there.

It isn't the end of my karma, sadly. Still working through all those limitations. My Master has me burning Sinchit most of the time. I'm cleaning the stables of Aegis every day both in meditation and in my Pralabh.

But for some of those two and a half hours most days I'm free. It's amazing.

My only advice to you is to associate with Satsangis, share your concerns. If He wills it you will get the same Grace and find that compassion you seek in an elder brother who can help.

Faith carries you through the dark periods. There are dark days also, weeks, where I sit with Maharaji in that place of light but go nowhere. It's all good.

There, Tucson, you may carry on with your doubt. But one voice in the wilderness said 'yes I've been there.'

The company you keep is my only advice.

[Brian Hines]

Spencer, you really have drunk the RSSB kool-aid. You're actually believing the fantasy you've conjured up in your own mind. My hope is that you'll copy down your comments and re-read them in a few years, or decades, when you've come to your senses. Eventually the truth will win out, because it always does. It just can take time, when dogma has infected someone's mind to a great extent. Best wishes for returning to reality one of these days.

[Spencer Tepper]

Hi Brian

You wrote
"Yet for some reason you keep harping on Tara's meditation life, which wasn't a big concern for her, though it is for you."

Brian, not her meditation life, but her own spiritual philosophy and efforts at the practice of meditation.

That's the entire point of Sant Mat.

This is what is the primary content of Satsang.

Master's wealth, his relatives' business dealings are not the reasons people go to Satsang, nor is that what they get from Satsang.

Apparently you didn't get anything real from Sant Mat and left, and that seems about right.

Others who go get much.

To say you are living in reality and they are not when in fact you are ignoring this most important part speaks to an unbalanced perspective.

We do, by the way, have courts to handle legitimate indictments, as they should.

If I were you I would not attempt to be judge, jury and executioner. Let the courts do their job. Help them if you can.

Those jobs aren't any fun, not do they substitute for spirituality.

[Marko]

Brian the only concern i have is do you think Tara, as apparently she went off the blogs will agree that we are talking about her and expose all comments in front again( although comments are really great) . You know what i am talking about...we just think about ourselves here..but what about Tara would she wantend to be exposed in comments again? Btw i also had that mail as probably you have but was gone with my broken computer.

[Marko]

Again beautiful post by Manjit on rss forum:

Arjuna: "Seriously guys and girls - leave this post do what you want - fuck, drink and party like there is no tomorrow. There is no inner existence -if any of you claim to have seen it - who was your drugs supplier looool."

Hi Arjuna! I hope you are keeping well!

I have to say, I find this comment of yours a little heart-breaking - the implication you can lose your connection to your "inner existence" to the extent of denying it, just based on a bit of gossip and hear-say on a blog & forum about another human being - however apparently honest & insightful it may be. :(

As there hasn't been much of a convincing "alternative" response to Tara's views & experiences, one that both represents Gurinder & RSSB as a potential real "viable spiritual path", and one that does not disengage with the facts of the real world & the inconsistency of theology, I feel like I need to play devil's advocate here at least in a speculative sense, based on my own experiences & understandings. And it IS indeed speculation, thinking out loud. Hence it will possibly very disjointed or "rambling" as I have a lot of thoughts about this :)......

First of all, both in my experience and understanding of a wide variety of "spiritual traditions" and individual "awakening narratives", I believe there is a phase or period of life between conceptual belief, ego-centred "spiritual experiences", complete devotion and adherence to an "ideal", and the experience labelled "enlightenment". This is called the "dark night of the soul", and it is spoken of in most spiritual traditions (if I had to guess, in RS cosmology this would correlate to the "maha-sunn"?). The signs and symptoms of this "dark night" are (and I mean this as an overview of a millennia of descriptive narratives, not just modern) often a complete lapse of "faith", extreme doubt, nihilism, atheism, believing everything is explained by materialistic laws and chaos etc. This can last from several days to an entire lifetime, if the "route" out of this "darkness" is not found. The rest of this post is from a "spiritual" perspective - plenty of woowoo no doubt. I am happy to discuss science & philosophy, and just why these materialistic models of experience & consciousness & the origins of the universe are ludicrous from a logical, scientific & philosophical point of view, but that's not what this post is about.....

What I think might be happening here is, people, identifying with a "self" (which is essentially the mind and body). are more concerned with the FORM of "liberation" rather the PROCESS of "liberation", they can only see other "selfs", such as Gurinder or the entity RSSB. They are more concerned with the personal than the universal, and thereby will never themselves experience what they seek, as this is a "dualistic perspective" which perpetuates "maya" or illusion, and "liberation" or "enlightenment" are not dualistic realisations or realities. From such an ego-centred position, it's more about who "claims" the power to enlighten than it is about the empowerment of "enlightenment" itself, which doesn't in fact belong to, or is caused by, anyone as it is causeless, and what we all always already are.

Anyway, that is all intellectual stuff. Reading Tara's fascinating account, and the comments in this thread, I was reminded of this experience I had some 21 years ago at Beas (I don't know why, it's kind of irrelevant! :). I think I've mentioned this 2 or 3 times over at RSS forum over the decades....

One day at Beas, I was walking to the early morning satsang with Gurinder. I believe this was the week or days leading up to a major bhandara, so it was being held in the larger satsang area nearer the river. Walking to satsang, very early in the morning around 7am or so (I believe, it was a long time ago!), I was walking around the outside of the huge tent. It was very surprisingly vacant outside, very few people walking around considering the event. Walking along, I encountered a young boy, aged between say 10-13 (alas I forget his age now!), with a very clear physical handicap, paralysis down one entire side. He started talking to me, joyously. I forget much of the details of the conversation now, but it went something like this; he was an orphan, his parents had died in a car accident when he was a very young child. He lived more or less alone with other poor people some 500 (this is from memory so I may be mistaken, but I do not exaggerate in the slightest intentionally) miles away from Beas. His job, for an absolute pittance, was smashing bricks with his one working hand. He had saved enough money doing this to afford the several bus, multi-hundred mile journey to Beas, alone, to visit his beloved Babaji.

Whilst all this was going on, I was overwhelmed by the deep, profound love this little boy (I was aged 19 at the time, he about 12) "emanated".

This became overwhelming to me when he pointed out to a small group of lady sevadars sweeping up an area some distance from us - he looked at me and said, in punjabi, "look how much love these sevadars are showing, look how much love there is".

I was literally choking up at this point, swallowing it back down, struggling to not openly burst into tears so as to worry or trouble this child. I did well in this regard.

Then, he got to his spot at the tent he is designated to sit - a huge, vast distance to the front where I was meant to sit - allowed to sit. I felt embarrassed, ashamed...... A part of me wanted to go sit with him, but perhaps due to cowardice and certainly ego, I just bade him farewell, and he smiled at me and disappeared into the tent. The rest of my long journey to my privileged "NRI section" at the front, with tears now openly flowing from eyes, I just kept repeating, over and over to myself, "You (Babaji) BETTER be who you say you are, you BETTER give that kid the grace, love & protection he deserves, I don't care about me or anyone else, but you better be real and protect that kid!"....over & over again.......

I have stated before, I believe it is one's sincerity, love, compassion, devotion, intensity of "seeking" etc that really matters, not which guru or path puzzle you've had the good intelligence or luck to unlock. Actually, on any and every path, those qualities I mention in the first sentence I do not feel are emphasised enough. Sincerity, love and compassion will open up more "inner spiritual realities" than any guru, meditation practice or religious path, but they can be difficult and challenging ideals to emulate, and don't sound as mystical, esoteric or ecstatic (read "magical") as an inner visionary voyage of light and sound in the company of the Godman (which imo, can be had two a penny. In the end, you will sacrifice all the visionary, ecstatic experiences, synchronicities, paranormal experiences, knowledge & understanding of many concepts etc for the ability to experience real, unconditional love, for even one half second :)

In regards Gurinder, I haven't really got a clue about who he is, really. But I do find it interesting that quite a number of people - several I know personally - that have come to RS, had a level of involvement in it that ranges from the casual to more often, very, very intense & for several years - who have then left RSSB, claimed to be "enlightened" or have "realised" something, and a few have then come to public forums like these to criticise the dualistic path that is RS dogma and theology. I myself had a major "shift" in my personal life & consciousness, the effects of which still reverberate to this very day, after several years of "dark night". Through a remarkable series of multiple "syhchronicity", that even "Osho Robbins" isn't aware of, through a satsangi lady I was most closest with during my time with RS, a regular & well-known sevadar at Haynes for many years, she contacted me (very luckily), and told me to meet with "Osho Robbins". I did, and the effect of that encounter was an extremely important, critical part of my own "spiritual path". Looking back, there's a heck of a lot of RSSB related links in there, integral almost to my own "awakening".....

But - it is also true to say, the gurus themselves have said the "truth is not in the books"; maybe they (or at least some of "them", RS gurus) are aware these are all attempts to appeal to people's prior conceptual models, to "free them" by engaging with the position they currently occupy? That the "real" PROCESS is actually occurring on another dimension, outside of that which is spoken about in the books - COMPLETELY OUTSIDE? This is to cast a positive "spin" on their words and actions, who knows.

This all really leads us into what exactly is the guru - it is clear what is written in the RS books is untenable, for eg. It is clearly far too dogmatic and completely at odds with reality as we know it to be. They are clearly mundane human beings, with certain exceptional experiences and qualities that are, in fact, the potential property of all human beings. But certainly not infallible "Perfect Living Masters", anyhow. As I've stated many, many times before - I think the "PROCESS" of "spirituality" can occur with ANY guru, religion, path or countless other ways or modalities. If the disciple is ready, so will the guru be, even if s/he isn't! :)

Gurinder?

After my own "awakenings", I too went to Haynes Park to get to the microphone to ask these questions, to "challenge" Gurinder; I was ready to do battle! :) I even posted up at RSS forum beforehand asking if anyone wanted to suggest some good questions. In the end, I rushed to queue up after each of either the first 2 or all 3 days of Gurinder's satsang schedule. Each time, there was not enough time for me to ask a question......actually, the closest I got was 2 or 3 from the mic, I think!

What is far more strange, or interesting, to me personally, was my experience listening to the satsang & Q It felt as if the entire satsang was directed at me, specifically, every single concern, or question, I had, Gurinder answered DURING that satsang. I actually couldn't believe what I was hearing - is everybody else hearing the same satsang?! This is NOT RS dogma, but actually an "advaita" type teacher, and one that was more or less openly confirming the same conclusion I had come to myself re. RS, specifically in relation to Faqir Chand, non-duality etc!

Gurinder was basically saying (from memory, obviously subject to slight error - BUT I did type out my experiences at the RSS forum a day or so after, far more accurate/detailed I expect) - openly - "what do you expect me to do, tell the truth? Then the kids will just go out and take drugs and who knows what else. Will that help everyone here? This is a school with many different levels, some at the nursery some at the university, not all are ready to hear the truth".

I walked out that satsang actually quite impressed with Gurinder - and astonished at how perfect a "mirror" the guru-figure can be, almost supernaturally so :)

Later, I bumped into my elderly mother who I took with me, but got separated from. Apparently, leaving the lady loo, she had accidentally bumped into Gurinder walking to the satsang tent, at a distant of a few feet. She suddenly and spontaneously started crying, she told me, and she didn't know why. She has no past association with RS or Gurinder (though had been with me years before a few times), but she is an fairly "simple minded" person who believes in all religions! I was struck with the idea, whatever I have "realised", how could I explain it to her, how could I explain to her my "non-dual" interpretation of her experience? It couldn't be done, and it would be a sin to attempt to do so!

All in all, I was left scratching my head......just what did happen there? I don't know! :) But I WAS impressed with the "perfection" of the world, how everything is exactly where it needs to be, from some perspectives at least......

Which is why I do not go to satsangs, or out of my way, personally, to present critical, alternative views - it is not that I am a particularly angry or aggressive person that enjoys putting down the beliefs and practices of others - for a start, what the hell do I know, nothing at all! I just feel that there is so few arenas where these things can be discussed from a critical or alternative perspective, and that some people's "spiritual paths" does entail doing that.....nay, is ESSENTIAL to! And it is in that spirit that I decide on the mode and tone of engagement on this subject with others - if you're coming to one of the only 2 places on the planet, virtual at that, where people can be critical of RS, then you should expect your beliefs to be shaken!

Peace to all,

Manjit

[Marko]

People of this blog. We all have faults and downfalls but still. At the end we face with the same thing and that is our own death. So at least while living we have a company of each other which i think is the great gift. Where would i be if i had no others(you)..i honestly think not in a great place. So i realized how important is to hear critics and be critical but on the other hand wake from only critical too to not become more bitter. What is the real goal of man the real inner or outer goal...is it long forgotten happiness or contenment or both?
I must openly and sincerely tell you i tried both sides in life and the best i feel in the middle. I tried alcohol, ganja...etc swearing,meat,veggie,arguments,self punishment,self hating(i never hated others) lies( but only small ones ..never got anything by lies)....but by trial and error i found i really like sincerity and honesty more...they bring me calmness. So i must say in my trials and errors please all forgive me for my errors and thank you all for you critical and dogmatical views cause without both i would not know the middle. Thank you and best of your thought be with you.

[Dungeness]

Spencer, you really have drunk the RSSB kool-aid. You're actually believing the fantasy you've conjured up in your own mind. My hope is that you'll copy down your comments and re-read them in a few years, or decades, when you've come to your senses. Eventually the truth will win out, because it always does. It just can take time, when dogma has infected someone's mind to a great extent. Best wishes for returning to reality one of these days.

Hi Brian,

I realize you're only addressing Spencer among the
the kool-aid crowd. But, I'm sure a few years or
decades will never be enough to invalidate what
some experience within whether through mysticism or
some other religious discipline.

If, on the other hand, you have no experience within,
your litmus test for truth will be filtered by the mind.
That little voice inside the head that never stops its
commentary.

The "little voice" will always create doubt and fear.
That is its own "dogma". What can you be entirely
certain of? A few minutes or years or decades later
you'll be uncertain. Unexpected results inexorably
appear in time. A slight aberration. A troubling
departure after years of consistency. A new theory's
needed to cover the emergent data.

Whatever its genesis, what you see and hear within
has an enormous psychological impact. We spend
years or lifetimes unaware of our own thoughts. Or, at
best, we're tormented, confused, overwhelmed by
them.

That's the power of an inner journey. You simply observe
your own thoughts. You don't react, or pigeonhole, or
judge. You don't smear as "dogma" what others have
experienced and you haven't.

The lies that trap us will fade away then. What remains is
"what is". That's what ultimately frees us of all dogma.

[tucson]

Spence, you wrote:

"But for some of those two and a half hours most days I'm free. It's amazing."

I would think hanging out on this blog of skeptics and ex'ers would be kind of a drag compared to soaring in the heavens. You said yourself, "The company you keep is my only advice." We aren't exactly a bunch of gurmukhs around here.. speaking for myself.

Look, I'm not trying to get you. Mostly, on this blog I am writing to myself. Maybe you have "made the entire trip" as you say. I don't know what you know. I do know I don't know much. But I remain skeptical unless you can explain to me in such a way that I am convinced not to eat them.. why is eating eggs harmful for spiritual progress? I can understand that fertilized eggs are potential life and eating them could be considered killing, but unfertilized?

I have chickens. No roosters. They seem to live a pretty good life as far as chickens go. They have shelter, can roam around, are safe from predators and get all sorts of goodies to eat. In exchange, they give us some eggs. Good nutrition. What could be wrong with that?

[Brian Hines]

Spencer, I sounded harsh to you in my last comment. Sorry about that. I don't doubt that you have had profound "inner" experiences that mean a lot to you. But so do Christians, Hindus, Buddhists, Muslims, Taoists, indigenous tribes, and other people who embrace a dizzying array of spiritual/religious belief systems.

I can accept that many people have mystical experiences, while still denying that these experiences reflect a reality outside of the mind of the person having the experience. This is my critique of you: you appear to believe that you have knowledge of an objective realm of reality beyond the physical. Well, again, so do many others -- and their descriptions of that realm differ a lot, both among themselves, and with your description.

So I refuse to accept the objective reality of mystical experiences, absent convincing evidence of this. Thus I also refuse to accept the claims of people, like you, who want to elevate their personal subjective experience into a claim about a universal objective realm of existence.

[Arjuna]

@ Spencer - I really don’t want to be harsh with you but I am. Enough is enough.

The Great Master once said a Master must be a perfect man - if he is not then leave his company. Looking forward to your come back on this one as it appears you know more about the inner regions than even the Masters them selves. Loooool.

Another point - if you were initiated by a man and not a master. You have no one to pull your soul current up. So it begs the question - do you believe you have the power to lift your soul up by your own means without any aid.

What Brian is saying is going completely over your head. Indeed it is your bad karma that do not allow you to think straight!!!!

You have put your self on a direct train crash in that you think you have power - you don’t. For a chap who has studied the mind at university- all that crap trap has gone to you head. Pun the pun.

I just want to worship a real master - and no why should I go to satsang where there are crooks and other motives.

Mate you really need to get a grip on yourself and listen to Brian. I said something to you a while ago and you started to challenge me with questions such as “ do you keep your vows and have you become a perfect satsanghi”.

I said one thing to you and I realised no this man has not been inside !!!! Fact if you had you would not be on here and secondly you would have thrown your dummy out the pram!!!!!

Ps my parents were initiated by the Great Master!

Sorry if I am harsh - consider it tough love!!!! Wake up man

[One Initiated]

"Fact if you had you would not be on here "

@ Arjuna - Enough is Enough 😡

Stop fooling yourself.

[Arjuna]

@ one initiated. Hello yes I am fooling myself. However I am digging deep at answers too.

I’ve spent my whole life chasing.

Have a good day

[Jim Sutherland]

@Arguna,.....no offense Mate, but from where I am perched, accross the Pond from you, I think you are being unkind, if not down right rude to Spence. In fact, almost Trolling him. He has never used fowl language in retaliation to your many out bursts of playing “ Good Cop” than bad Cop. Also, he has always tried to help you, and has even apologized for haven hurt your feelings after you excuse your self from being Civil “ because you are all alone in the world because your family have all died.” No one likes to be alone, Brother, but We ALL arrived in these bodies alone, and will ALL depart alone. Spence was not instrumental in your Adult decision to ask for , and be accepted to receive the Sant Mat Initiation Instructions from Gurinder Singh. Your parents or no one else forced you to apply for, and accept the Vows you signed with your Application. So, Gurinder has disappointed you, and has not lived up to being the Image of God In Human Form. In fact, after 38 years of posing as what RSSB’s Minuns expect a human to be, if you put your self in his shoes, and had to listen to all these silly questions he has had to endure for 38 years thinking up answers to appease them, What would you do if he suddenly did what you keep doing here, in our little group, i.e. telling us all to @#$&((%=€>€>}] *#@,,, ....just about, give up, eat shit and die?

I am not your Father, but please do consider me your Elder Brother, on the other side of the pond, that actually cares about you, in spite of your having no other family. I KNOW the present path you are presently treading up on , will only lead to to more anger, self mutilation, and destruction.

Regardless of all the negitive testimony here by ex-Sats, there have been other crys in the Wilderness of those who HAVE had profound Inner exoeriences, and still have, in spite of how Gurinder Singh appears to look like, or how he has or is, conducting the affairs of RSSB. Do you think I lied about all the inner experiences I have shared here! I have never once, taken Drugs. My inner experinces have been all induced by following exactly what your were shared at Initiation. If you don’t take the Medicine perscribed, and contine to stay sick, and don’t heal, why can you blame the Physician who administered the Prescription? He never mixed up any new Concoction, he only administered the Perscription to you, perscribed by other Physicians before him, that has worked on many other sick Patients, including me!

Hey, Mate, don’t trash your soul because of what others , including Gurinder stirs up in your mind. Move on, if too many have farted in this Church, and find another Church where the Air is purified.

Getting drunk, smoking Weed, doing Drugs, will be not only a very temporary Band Aid on your sorrows, but will only lead you further in to the Rat hole.

I advise your departing from RSSB totally, as you certainly have become disenchanted there, by not only Gurinder, but by Satsangis in general.

Don’t buy in to Brian’s Atheism, that it all ends here , so eat, drink, and make merry, because tomorrow you may die.”

If you’ve completely thrown in the towel, visit my Blog once more, and read some of my Posts to encourge your self to at least belive God is Within YOU, the Hope of Glory.

Brother Spence has not sentenenced you to death, ........neither has GSD.
You are your own Executioner.

Peace, Bother
Jim Sutherland

[Arjuna]

@ Jim - you are right.

@ Spencer - forgive me as I was an ass and did not engage my brain when typing. I still like you nevertheless and you are a bigger man than me!

[Arjuna]

@ Jim hello and thank you.

I’d love to have had you as head master when I was at school. I would have started well. You have a way of speaking that puts one to shame.

Take that as a compliment. Please -as itsmeant to be one !

[Marko]

Wau Jim my respect!

[Dungeness]

Gurinder told me the same thing — " burn the books " and then followed it up with " they're just there to whet the appetite " at which point I paused : Then, I ( candidly ) said " appetite for what then ? " And he finished up with " you're intellectualizing, you have to surrender. " Later, I thought about it and I found it rather unconvincing. At the end, it is all about towing the company line so " burn the books " is just a lame joke.

This is what every mystic says. Words are only meant to
whet the appetite for experience. The mystic journey is
meant to be experiential; otherwise, it's just a religion.

You can memorize every word of RS scripture, parse
meanings, ask questions, argue, pontificate but you
get nowhere without inner experience.

Intellectualizing is not the answer. It's certainly not about
"towing the company line" either as Tara imagines.
Metaphorically you must "burn the books". Throw away
the travel brochure and begin the journey.

[Marko]

Also respect to you Arjuna to accept Jims words!

[Arjuna]

@ Marco - I feel ashamed of myself.

Have a good day

[Marko]

Arjuna dont be ashamed, that puts guilt on your mind and you dont want that. We, people are here to help each other. Recognizing of own faults is not to be guilty but to know how to correct things. Pece

[Arjuna]

@ Marko. Thanks for the kind words.

[Spencer Tepper]

Arjuna, all is good, brother.

Your points are well taken. Passion about Truth is a good thing.

I'm here because I can't help it. Something about what you, Brian and others write is extremely inspiring to me, though in some ways I hold different beliefs.

Brian and I disagree greatly, but like you, Arjuna, there is fierceness about Truth I find very impressive and attractive.

Stay true to your sentiments.

Jim, Marko, Dungeness, thank you.

[Arjuna]

@ Spencer - I genuinely worried until you replied - Jim being the older brother put me straight (god that man has a way with words and encouragement).

Thank I won’t be an ass again - the pity is I should have more respect and I failed. Jim said something that felt like a bolt of lightening. He said”don’t trash your soul”.

I have a lot of thinking to do as I have become a monster and should know better coming from the family I did.

I offer my apologies again - you I should respect as you have only ever encouraged me. Sorry.

[Jim Sutherland]

@ All,....OK. Now that the Church Windows have been opened to let the Air clear, let’s get back to singing our Shabds out of tune with each other. Buy let’s remain a Motley Choir of indifferences, but Civil to each other.

😇😍
Jim

[Arjuna]

@ Jim - you are a legend! 😀

[One Initiated]

Spencer - a lot to learn from you.

Master Jim - congrats, you've a new disciple ;) And for a good reason ! Cheers!

Arjuna - Outstanding brother, loved your responses.

Manjit - are you back on earth ? ;)

[Arjuna]

@ one initiated.

I was out of order and I think all this happened for a reason - I was meant to learn. But it is no way an excuse for the outburst.

[Brian Hines]

Arjuna, your comment directed at Spencer was indeed tough love. Thanks for writing it. Sometimes one's truth has to be spoken, even if it hurts other people's feelings. Looking back, I'm thankful that my wife kept asking me tough questions about RSSB and the guru after we got married in 1990, even though the questions irritated me at the time.

I had my head in the Sant Mat sand. I didn't want to hear the truth about a spiritual path that I deeply wanted to be genuine. Eventually -- this took years -- I began to see through my delusions. This won't happen to everyone, because for many satsangis the blinders are just too comfortable to be taken off.

But for me, like Tara, I much prefer the clear light of reality to the shadows of a dogmatic, rigid, ego-driven form of supposed spirituality. Yes, ego-driven. I loved Tara's comments where she spoke about egotistical sevadars [volunteers for the guru] acting like assholes because they felt they were doing God's will when they forced people to stop taking photos of the guru, and such.

RSSB is a cult. That's the truth. It controls people in ways that may seem innocuous, but really are just as harmful to genuine inner growth as any other cult. Satsangis often begin to feel that following the guru's orders is more important than being a loving spouse or parent. Much or most of their attention gets directed toward RSSB and the guru rather than the people right around them.

So you did the right thing in speaking your truth. Don't doubt yourself when you feel like you want to be free of religious chains, and you don't want other to be imprisoned either. That's a good feeling to have.

[Arjuna]

@ Brian - what hurt me was that I had hurt another’s feeling. That’s the last thing I want to do.

I want people I come across to be happy but sometimes the inner monsters blasts out. As I did earlier.

I am initiated and yes I want to believe but there is so much doubt in my mind that it’s unbearable.

I know some people say mediate but if the initiation was false I have no one to call to. If you get my drift. That’s was the point I was making - I can't lift my consciousness- so who can help
Me. That’s my worry.

However I thank you for your email and the chains of a cult are harder to break than one can imagine.

All the best

[tucson]

Blogger Brian wrote; "RSSB is a cult. That's the truth. It controls people in ways that may seem innocuous, but really are just as harmful to genuine inner growth as any other cult."

-- Yes, I suffered greatly not being able to eat eggs (forbidden in Sant Mat). All those tasty muffins and pancakes I missed. And no mayonnaise.. that nearly killed me. Spencer still hasn't answered my question above about eggs. That's OK. I know in ayurveda eggs are considered rajasic and stimulate gross passions and desires. Not good for the gurmukh aspiring to subtle heavenly realms. Since I no longer aspire to such realms, a gross passion or two doesn't seem to hurt me or anyone else for that matter.

Seriously though, this egg taboo gets a little ridiculous. Once, we were going to the beach with some people and they took the time to make us avocado sandwiches knowing that we were vegetarians. We had to refuse the sandwiches because they were made with mayonnaise, a fraction of an egg in each. I imagine they thought we were 'off the deep end' fanatical about this. The sandwiches went uneaten and we ended up munching on carrot sticks for the day.

[Jim Sutherland]

@Arjuna, .......Gurinder shared the Sant Mat Technique of how to escape Transmigrating to the lower species, if you Meditate. Any one could have showed you how to listen to the Shabd, or see the Lignt, by repetition of Simran, i.e. the Five Names. The Five Names are no longer any big secret, since the Internet is available to any one that finds out to do searches. Those Five Names are the same that all Sat Mat Initiates , regardless of Branch , were given at Initiation, other than the Soamibagh Agra Branch, starting with Rai Salig Ram who opted for RADHASOAMI as the entire Mantra. If you have never read their Books, than you would not have any faith in that Mantra, but I have read every book, developed faith in their arguments, but still retained faith in the Five Names, so instead of beating it to death, and listening to others, I used my own rationalities, and just added Radhasoami to the Five Names to make my Simran, a Six Name Simran. I even use the Christian Monks Mantra, on occassion, when it seems to be taking me too long to break thru the Fog of Johti.

Charan Singh always said to do the best we can, and leave the rest to The Lord. I have always tried to do the best I could, which was always seemingly, just enough to break thru the Fog of Johti .

You are your own man. You have been given all the tools of success and Liberation.

Use it, or Loose it.

Gurinder did his duty, by answering your request for Initiation. From then on, YOU have to Walk your own Walk, and will show your success or failure by how you Talk your Talk! Obviously, you are not a very good Pimp for RSSB, but neither am I, nor any others here, or they wouldn’t even be here.

I am not Pimping for RSSB, or Gurinder, or Ishwar, Rajinder, or any other Guru. But I AM a Bond Slave of Christ, Who is the Shabd, Word, Savior, Master, Guru, and am a Bounty Hunter for lost souls. I am a hired Gun for Christ.

RSSB is not the only Path to Liberation. They say, Gurinder keeps telling followers that, so if you no longer have faith in RSSB, then, move on to some other Branch of Sant Mat that might ignite the Shabd , or Christ that is already in you, but dorment, because of your lack of Faith, and association with Unbelievers.

Spend some time looking at other Branches of Sant Mat, if you now consider RSSB a Cult. In fact, it most likely HAS become a Cult, under Gurinder, but that does not make Sant Mat a Cult.

Check out James Bean’s extensive Research.
Just Search “ James Bean Sant Mat” and his Web Site will come up, with his Radio Podcasts, and tons of other Sant Mat information. He isn’t Pimping for any one, either.

Soldier On, Brother!
Jim

[vinny]

Even Sungazing is a cult but yogis live without food by using it. This rubbish argument that I can't live without animal food is trash, forget animal food people are living without food. Now scream, it is a cult, we are afraid of cults, living without food is a cult, yes it is a cult. In equal measure, even physics and aerospace are cults.

[Arjuna]

@ Jim. Thank you and I Will soldier on now.

You know a lot - a very knowledgable man.

Thanks you. Right I must cook the evening meal for myself- gosh if only the Lord came down and cooked something nice - now there’s a thought.

God bless

[777]

-

I was busy and saw this late

, . . so choosed to read the comments first and the article later

The only thing Charan and Gurinder say to people is :

Are you unhappy > Then try our method
of Sound and Light
A Lamborgini for your bicycle and for free and for many eternaties to come.

BOTH said : We are not perfect , . . . on the contrary ! -( like all Saints said )

I cannot believe My Wife and myself amongst 10M disciples have seen many times and in simran these Gold Diamonds_liquid emanations from their foreheads

THEN you see Them all the time !

FROM BOTH GUYS

You are advising not to drink water

As you entertain the faqirs stand point , Brian, when will you write
about
"The scandalous live of rotten Sawan Singh"

No karma-"repercussions in Sant Mat however it will make you immensely sad

777

_

[Jen]

We all have different responses to other peoples attitudes. I for some inexplicable reason have been inspired by Tara's issues to start doing my Simran again. I want to feel like I used to be. A satsangi, not this dysfunctional human who does not have a path or vision to follow.

Cheers guys

[Jim Sutherland]

To Arguna, Jen, and any other Ex-Sat who still has a glimmer of Hope and a flicker of Flame left from years of unfulfilled meditation, here is a few comments I recently shared on another Forum, where Consciousness was being discussed, and whete a link to a Vedenta Monk was speaking about Advaita verses Yoga. The Monk preferred facing the e ils of this wirld head on, imagi ing that we are Awake, and little Gods, instead of the Sant Mat Way of Trying to BE God, to take refuge IN God, which is Anami Samadhi.

Here is what I wrote.
When your physical body is sleeping, where is your Consciousness when you are dreaming? When you see yourself talking to another person in your dreams, ( I have seen myself ), where is your conscousness then? In your physical body, or your Dream ( Astral) body, or the Body ( Causal ) viewing your Dream ( Astral ) body? So, to me, that is an example of my Consciousness split, or operating in 3 different bodies, at once, i.e. Physical, Astral, Causal. I am a Multidimensional Consciousness. So I agree with Ishwar. My Multidimensional Consciousness is like an Onion, with my soul held hostage in the center core, encased with layers of multiple Plays of Consciousness. My soul could be compared to a Cobra locked in a Basket, being lured out of the basket by the Master playing his Flute to create the Sound of Shabd to pull me out of my basket.
Taking this further, for discussion or corroboration, ......in Radhasoami Literature, mostly from the Agra Soamibagh Parent group, there are 18 Planes, or Regions. They say there are 6 in the physical body, 6 in the Astral body, and 6 in the Causal body. So, there are Sub- Planes within each body. Now, keep in mind, that to even reach the Third Eye, which is called the “ Tisra Till, or Third Til” by Master Sawan Singh, all lower 18 Realms are just the Steps to enter the FIRST Gate to the Pure Spiritual Planes. So, what Plane is Sach Khand, if any reader here knows? Here is an interesting clue. It was
shared by the last Guru of the Soamibagh Agra group in Satsang.
Here is what Babuji, the last Master of the Soamibagh Agra group shared in his Satsang given in Allahbad 24-7-1923. “The spirit-force descends up to a point where it can function in full consciousness. For instance, if an animal be placed in a human body it will lose consciousness and will not be able to do anything because its spirituality is less than that of a man. Similarly, if a man’s Surat be raised to the fifth or sixth centre, he would become unconscious and all his activities would stop. Every human being acts in full consciousness at the heart centre according to his mental make up; he can do nothing contrary to this.”
He is a wonderful Speaker, but I still resonate more with the Path of the Yogi and Sant Mat 1.0. There are absolute horrors in this world I witness, in my mind. I agree they are Samsaras, which are temporary illusions created by the mind which will eventually become, No Mind, as taught by Advaita Vedanta and this fine Teacher. But the way of the Yogi, which I resonate with, and practice, is by using the Technique of Sant Mat 1.0, the “Old School” taught by Sawan Singh, which is by practicing the Technique we were taught at Initiation, which leads our soul thru the 18 Planes to No Mind, Samadhi. I go there often. Not every time I sit in Meditation, but enough times to know where to rest from the horrors of the world the mind must witness during incarnation in this physical body and experiencing conscious awareness in any of the 18 Planes. Just knowing the horrors are only temporary Samaras of my mind does not relieve me of witnessing the horrors of Wars, Animal sacrifice, sex trafficking, Politics, Cults, which are only the tip of the iceberg of horrors. Vedanta teaches to witness and accept all of the horrors the mind witnesses, and we become liberated, or enlightened. To me, that is not liberating. Sant Mat 1.0 and the way of the Yogi is much more liberating , and rational, IMHO. Samadhi is the best way of No Mind, for me. The Sant Mat Path of the Masters does not require living in a cave in the Himalayas. Sant Mat Yogis may live as House Holders with out shutting out the world , while passing through it, and using their own Body Temples to shut out and escape Samaras, with becoming permanent prisoners of the mind. “

😇😍
Jim Sutherland

[Jim Sutherland]

“ facing evils of this world head un.......

[Jim Sutherland]

Dould have read as,...With OUT becoming permanent prisoners of the Mind

[777]

"""" Our comments here are forming a valuable archive for those who will seek to find out more, specially after the radical shift in the """"

Riduculous and pretentious

If this was done as an examen
you would score far UNDER ZERO by the simple fact
that no single date wasprovided

The whole context could be 100% out of order
Worthless as a documentary

But half way , . . there is much more to it
But so much : HATE

777

Ever heard about the rich man telling the village
not to consume it all but to sow

[777]

For Instance

Mr Modi planned to construct 200 coal power plants in India
Al Gore tried to prevent such disaster

Then He phoned the US Patent holder of Sublimatic Polycrystalline
suncells asking to give the patent for free to India and so it happened

These cells are X times more powerfull and ecological

Saying that Gurinder does no social good which was appalling/dirty
while knowing nothing, . .
I thought suddenly about His connection with GOV / suncells and perhaps the american is a Satsangi

I had once a tax checker who was vegetarian and we talked only That!

Gurinder might have saved total india from total disaster

777

[777]

He also arranged a hyper cheap impossible One Billion $ loan
for India
to start up all these sun-powered-plants

Who , we know, . . does the impossible serendipities
this time a big one

777

Go, cry in the corner Brian

[Dungeness]

RSSB is a cult. That's the truth. It controls people in ways that may seem innocuous, but really are just as harmful to genuine inner growth as any other cult. Satsangis often begin to feel that following the guru's orders is more important than being a loving spouse or parent. Much or most of their attention gets directed toward RSSB and the guru rather than the people right around them.

Good grief, Brian. RSSB doesn't control people, it provides
a discipline to take back control from the mind. Its path
is one of inwardness while living within societal norms
and fulfilling responsibilities. RSSB counsels the most
loving fidelity to family and mankind. You will never find
language in its literature that suggests otherwise.

Anyone acting differently has failed to grasp RSSB. He's
acting under the dictates of his own mind, not the body
of instructions of RSSB . His progress in mindfullness has
fallen short. But he's no victim of bossy Sevadars or venal
leadership or a cultish dogma that's lead him astray.

Asserting that RSSB is a "cult", "harmful to inner growth",
is simply untrue. It's angry, unsupportable rhetoric. Nor
Nor will society at large accept such vitriol. It says
more about the accuser than the subject.

[Dungeness]

RSSB is a cult. That's the truth. It controls people in ways that may seem innocuous, but really are just as harmful to genuine inner growth as any other cult. Satsangis often begin to feel that following the guru's orders is more important than being a loving spouse or parent. Much or most of their attention gets directed toward RSSB and the guru rather than the people right around them.

Good grief, Brian. RSSB doesn't control people, it provides
a discipline to take back control from the mind. Its path
is one of inwardness while living within societal norms
and fulfilling responsibilities. RSSB counsels the most
loving fidelity to family and mankind. You will never find
language in its literature that suggests otherwise.

Anyone acting differently has failed to grasp RSSB. He's
acting under the dictates of his own mind, not the body
of instructions of RSSB . His progress in mindfullness has
fallen short. But he's no victim of bossy Sevadars or venal
leadership or a cultish dogma that's lead him astray.

Asserting that RSSB is a "cult", "harmful to inner growth",
is simply untrue. It's angry, unsupportable rhetoric. Nor
Nor will society at large accept such vitriol. It says
more about the accuser than the subject.

[GS]

Thank you for this post Brian.

Some of Tara's comments are actually replies to me when I was still a satsangi.
I used to argue quite a lot with Brian and everyone else who left the path.
But my affiliation with RS ended when I read Mr Lane's books, especially the one about Faqir Chand, I wasn't disillusioned with the path like most of the ex satsangis, I just happened to type RS in on Google, clicked on Mike Williams' website and read about Faqir Chand. I was just a kid at the time, and my world was turned upside down, I couldn't believe it.
I still attended national satsangs (will be going to next one), and the more I listened to Gurinder and saw that no one was making progress, I realised that this indeed wasn't the right path. There was a lot of contradictions in what Gurinder was saying and what's written in the books. But you have to give Gurinder some credit for how he has changed some of the teachings and gotten rid of a lot of questionable notions.

I'm much happier now than when I was a satsangi, it's not because I can eat cakes, eggs, drink, party etc. I don't do that any of that stuff, I still believe in some of the practices like vegetarianism and living a moral life with no pre-martial relationships. it's just that I don't have the burden of living a certain way to please the master (i.e. listening to satsangs, going to seva or reading books).
And if i got initiation i would have to meditate which does essentially nothing for most satsangis, that would be 20-30 years wasted.
If anything goes wrong in my life, I don't look to Gurinder/God anymore, some things just happen which are outside of our control, it's got nothing to do with past life karma. I can deal with things a lot better like this, I don't have the anger over karmas causing my problems.

[Spencer Tepper]

Hi 777

You right. It really depends upon what you choose to read, to investigate, and to believe. Or what you choose to ignore. Tara's report is biased to her grudge. She ignores some of the most important facts.

RE Ranbaxy, whose sale in 2008 fueled the astronomic leap of Religare, the investment firm originally founded to help grow the Indian economy and provide Healthcare access to more of India.

Ranbaxy was a successfully run family business bringing low cost medications to India for decades. The patriarch, Bhai Mohan Singh was a financier who bought the company in 1952 when his cousins who had started and owned it were on the brink of bankruptcy. He was the husband of Maharaji 's daughter.

In the early years of this century they became , as they remain today, the third world's largest supplier of low cost critical drugs, for TB, Malaria and Aides. They supply most of the HIV medications and Ampicillin going to Africa, including those for the Clinton HIV initiative and other impoverished nations, at fraction of the prices offered by others. This is the company's tradition and their business model.

The grandfather, in the 1970's, realized that medication prices could be slashed by retro engineering western drugs so that these medications could be supplied to India and other indigent countries as generics.

After the father died in 1999 the sons began to expand their offerings into other countries. But as they began to grow exponentially the sons ran into trouble with managing quality, specifically for their acne medicine.

And when they were approached by the Clintons for their global HIV initiative, they simply expanded to fast.

When they went after a generic version of Lipitor, they became serious competition for established drug companies, Roche, Beecham and others.

https://www.business-standard.com/article/companies/40-years-ago-and-now-ranbaxy-grew-with-liberal-regimes-moving-out-of-family-control-114102101500_1.html

Then in 2004, within their organization quality records had been found missing or rubber stamped approved without actual inspection. And while it took a few years, in 2012 they were fined the largest penalty in the entire history of the United States Food and Drug Administration. To be cautious the FDA listed a large ban of most all the medications Ranbaxy made at two of their India production facilities. By that time the brothers Singh had sold their shares, so there was contention about how much they knew about the FDAs concerns. That resulted in an out of court settlement, and the recent expulsion of the brothers from their positions at Religare.

It should be noted that the FDA fine was for the falsified inspections. After conducting intense audits and inspections at Ranbaxy's Indian manufacturing facilities over several years the FDA also reported that none of the batches of unchecked acne medication had actually left the plant. None were shipped out. None of the other medications were found to have quality problems since the original complaint in 2004. The FDA also confirmed that there were never grounds to close the factory and finally lifted the bans.

Random checks of Ranbaxy's HIV drugs throughout Africa since 2004 have proven they were always safe and effective.

http://www.politifact.com/global-news/statements/2016/sep/23/daily-caller/conservative-website-wrongly-ties-clinton-foundati/

Were these corrupt men? Or visionaries in a family tradition of using business profit to expand and serve, caught in a growth explosion they could not manage effectively?

Bottom line, with all the messy human flaws involved, just as with the Clinton Initiative itself, their direct efforts have resulted in saving over a million lives.

Yes they are Satsangis, flaws and all. Egos and all, Lust, anger, greed, attachment and pride. But something else that cannot be denied.

Demons or heros?

On the human spectrum, in the balance, I'd say heros, on an international level.

[Brian Hines]

777, you shouldn't spout falsehoods. Every comment has a date in the post where a comment was left. I haven't changed the order of Tara's comments in any way. Like I said, the comments are ordered from most recent to least recent.

Truth is important. When you don't know something, 777, just say "I don't know." When you pretend to know something that you don't, like whether the comments have dates and whether the order was changed, you are fooling both yourself and other people.

This is part of what religion does to people: it makes them think they are all-knowing, whereas actually they know very little.

[Spencer Tepper]

Think about it this way.
What if they had said to the Clinton Initiative "no, we can't handle that volume."?

How many lives would have been lost because no one else could produce the drugs they cheaply?

[777]

I'm stunned,

I go UP here again !

I see no single date, nada

What is with you

Long years you say 0*1=1 , . . . I said ten times = 0 .... then , now, you say : "existence"
OK: God Exist , and you call HIM now "existance"

------------
And now you declare something similar :

Dates exist while there are ZERO dates

Is there a heatwave in Salem, OR ?

I now see a little bit how come
you ignore a 5 fold miracle (an impossibility) , 5 at the same time

777

it's nothing personal ( Al Capone )

[One Initiated]

Brian,

777 is mentioning that no dates are mentioned at the start/end of the comment posted above.

When you said that dates are mentioned on the original page where they were posted,
is also not of much use for any reader to actually get the idea,
because the links to those posts (with comment id) is neither available in the post above.

[One Initiated]

Arjuna,

I have nothing to go against Jim,
but also I don't buy all what he says.
I believe that like many others,
he has also got tricked by his mind and is still in that state.

I personally feel for you - as you described your personal life.
I wish you will soon be happy from inside,
and receive great love from HIM.

If you are counting on the failures in RSSB,
and terming it as all illusions,
there are many accounts with great success in RSSB as well.
Who are doing outstanding inner progress,
many of them have received inner darshan of Babaji.

And every saint is different, everyone's style is different,
but teachings are same and intact - not even a millimetre here or there.

What does Soami Ji Maharaj started mentioning: 2.5 hours of daily sincere meditation.
What does Babaji mention in each and every sastsang/discoure: exactly the same.

Here are two very important messages from our Masters:

Hazur Maharaj Charan Singh Ji:
"If you spend 2.5 hours daily for 40 days, come and blame me if you don't find any noticeable change"

Sardar Bahadur Singh Ji:
"If you spend 3 continuous hours in thoughtless notion, third eye can be realised."

Have you ever spent 2.5 hours daily (Without faily)
for continuous 40 days ?
If not, then could you do this justice with yourself ?
could you do it continuous for 40 days and
share with us all if you notice some significant change ?
If it does, isn't it worth trying ?

[Brian Hines]

Geez, what a bunch of nit-pickers there are who comment on this blog, thinking they're so superior, because they believe in RSSB fantasies. Get your own blog, if you don't like how I run this one.

FYI, this is how a comment from Tara would have looked if I'd copied and pasted each comment as Typepad stores it.

Tara said:
Akash, your Guru is a fraud. Live with it. I've lived with it ... I'm over it. The grey-blue outside doesn't precipitate on his instructions. He's as flawed, greedy and every bit human as you and I. Chill.
Reply | Edit | View | Oct 14, 2014 on Guru Gurinder Singh…

I spent quite a few hours copying, pasting, and putting paragraph breaks in each and every one of hundreds of comments. Obviously I get paid exactly zero for running this blog, while Gurinder Singh has made hundreds of millions of dollars from his stint as the RSSB guru.

I realized that putting in the date information would clutter up the comments, and the date was irrelevant to what Tara said. So deal with it, RSSB nit-pickers. Suggestion: spend your time refuting what Tara said (which you can't, I'm quite sure) rather than obsessing over whether I should have included the date of each comment.

[One Initiated]

Spencer,

I would also like to add an account here:
which I think I have had added on this blog earlier,
but since Brian has posted this all over again,
I am also recalling it again:

This is just one of the numerous accounts of charitable initiative:

The 2001 Gujrat Earthquake was tormenting in every sense.
I personally know some members who joined the sewa,
of re-establishing 6 villages from horrifying state to up and running,
built up thousands of homes - all of that accomplished under Babaji's guidances and orders
in an extremely short period of 5 odd months or so.
The govt. was astonished with the work done without govt. support.
There were strict orders for no media coverage.

Tara or Whoever is spreading that under Babaji's guidance the charitable work has decreased, is a daylight false - and clearly be proven wrong if anyone visits India and see things with own eyes,
not with Tara's glasses.

[One Initiated]

hi Brian,

I know you are the owner and author of this blog,
but based on the relation a reader shares with his author,
irrespective of the fact that we differ in our agreements on a topic,
a reader has some slight right to ask for some clarification ? doesn't he ?

Would you then like to suggest, how the title "Devastating criticism of Gurinder Singh Dhillon by a RSSB insider" is suitable to this blog post ?

[Jim Sutherland]

@Brian, seduce, bribe, challenge, beg, your Brother Charan friend Initiate , Professor David Lane to offer his sugar coated explanations regsrding Tara’s hostilities against Gurinder Singh and RSSB , now that is he is back in good graces with Gurinder, and for a Bonus, invite the Western Rep.,Vince Savarice here to be his Tag Team Partner to back him up. Then, what ever they say will obviously be in opposition to what you have said, and we can all choose sides, or Cheer for our Debating Champs.

Lane can Make or break Gurinder and RSSB, at least for Western English speaking readers.

Do you think Gurinder Singh has hired Professor Lane as a Lobbyist for RSSB?

No one listens to 777, as he sounds like an Astrologer high on Drugs. Trying to gigure out what he is sating is like looking for missing pie es of a Jig Saw Puzzle.

Spence is a loyal Devotee, but an out of the Know Out Sider.

Lane and Savarice are the only believable Gurinderites that can set the Record straight, and prove Tara was blowing smoke only.

They are,...were, ...both Brothers in your Inner Group, Brian. Can’t you get them here?

Jim Sutherland
😇🤓🙏🏻

[Jim Sutherland]

@Spence,....you said you were given the Initition Instuctions by Dr. Roland de Vries. So was I. He played a real big part, in my final decision to be initiated. He was a Seminary Grad. with a Th.D. as I was, and I really grilled him about our Bible Beliefs, and if he felt he was in conflict by being Charan’s RSSB Rep., and deserting his Christian Role. We discussed Dr. Julian Johnson, who was also a Baptist Missionary, and Roland convinced me that I certainly was not turning my back on my Christian Obligations taken whenI was Ordained to Preach the Gospel to every creature, by being initiated in to Sant Mat. I really NEEDED some one like Roland to sort out my final concerns, and he gave me exactly what I needed. No doubt, he is with Master Charan now.

Jim Sutherland

[Arjuna]

@ Jim - I have read the Path of the Masters - the chapters on what happens after death is scary. I could not sleep for weeks. This was 25 years ago.

[Spence Tepper]

Hi Jim!

My interest in Jesus Christ took hold in my youth. I found the character in the Bible to be charismatic, amazing. I was born into a Jewish family that rejected Zionism. Our Rabbi believed Zion was a place in spirit to be found within. He was fired from the Synagogue (University Synagogue in Brentwood, California) in 1963 for his beliefs. That is when my parents left Judaism.

And in 1965 I was baptized into Christianity.

Maharji's interpretations of the Bible really intrigued me, so that began a deeper look into the references to the Name of God, the Holy Spirit etc in the Bible.

I have found the Bible to be a wonderful exposition of the Spirit / Shabd, cover to cover.

"15 Blessed is the people that know the joyful sound: they shall walk, O Lord, in the light of thy countenance.
16 In thy name shall they rejoice all the day: and in thy righteousness shall they be exalted."
Psalm 89:16

"Sacrifice and offering you did not desire—
but my ears you have opened[c]—
burnt offerings and sin offerings[d] you did not require.
7 Then I said, “Here I am, I have come—
it is written about me in the scroll.[e]
8 I desire to do your will, my God;
your law is within my heart.”
Psalm 40: 7-8

[Arjuna]

@ Spencer + Jim - hello sirs

I’m trying mediation again tonight. Wish me luck. I want to see that shining star.

Not sure why I’m posting this