Guru Gurinder Singh is sounding a lot like Alan Watts

Since there are quite a few devotees of Radha Soami Satsang Beas (RSSB) who use the comment sections of my blog posts as sort of a Sant Mat discussion venue, I wanted to revisit the question of how the current RSSB guru, Gurinder Singh, has been altering Sant Mat teachings to a surprising degree.

A blog post of mine from 2011, "Has Gurinder Singh revised Sant Mat to v. 3.0?" summarized these changes.

Five years ago I wrote a post about "Sant Mat, version 2.0." This is how I summarized the changes that Gurinder Singh apparently has made to the RSSB teachings.

(I say apparently because the current guru doesn't allow his talks to be recorded, and he doesn't write anything himself. So this makes it difficult to pin down what he's telling people.)

Sant Mat v. 1.0
--The guru is God in human form
--The guru is perfect, possessing God’s divine qualities
--God has chosen certain souls to return to Him
--God delegates the guru to initiate these “marked souls”
--Without initiation by a perfect guru, God-realization is impossible

Sant Mat v. 2.0
--The guru is a human who is seeking God, just like us
--The guru is imperfect, just like us
--Whether we want to pursue God-realization is up to us
--The guru is a spiritual guide, not a savior
--There are many paths to God, not just Sant Mat

Now it looks like Gurinder Singh is wandering even farther from the tradtional Sant Mat path. On a recent Church of the Churchless post, someone who signed his/her comments "A Typical Follower" shared these thoughts:

I was at the national satsang [gathering of disciples] in the UK last weekend. Gurinder has changed from the old days. His teachings are going through a noticeable change - and so is he himself.

What I noticed is that
(1) He talks a lot about The ONE
(2) He laughs and jokes a lot
(3) He tells people not to be so serious
(4) He tells them that the master will not come at the time of death - that they have misunderstood the teachings. Just as it does not take four lifetimes.
(5) He says there are no regions - that Sach Khand does not exist - neither does Sat Purush. He says they are levels of consciousness

He says the purpose is to REALIZE that there is only the ONE - and that we are caught in maya - duality.

Having the darshan of the physical master is not even mentioned anymore. He says seva will not help you make any progress - it simply makes you humble if done correctly. There is no spiritual merit.

You will NOT be able to succeed through meditation. Meditation is just to make you give up. You can never get there through your efforts.

Now these kind of teachings have never been given before in rssb.

It struck me that the philosophy Gurinder Singh is now espousing bears a considerable resemblance to what Alan Watts talks about in his marvelous book, "The Wisdom of Insecurity." 

Recently someone emailed me, noting that they had some addiction problems and wanted to know if I could suggest a mystical/spiritual book that might help them with this. After a bit of thought I took "The Wisdom of Insecurity" off of my bookshelf, thumbed through it, and sent this person the following excerpts from the book.

These passages fit with Gurinder Singh's observation that we are caught in duality, which is maya, illusion. Part of that illusion, according to Watts, is believing that there is a true self within us that is different from our bodily self. We divide ourselves into two when we view ourselves as "I" and "me."

For example, we'll say to ourselves, "I wish that I didn't have such a craving for chocolate," as if the "I" that wishes is separate and distinct from the "me" that likes chocolate so much. On a broader scale, this is akin to the false distinctions we make between man and nature, mind and body, creator and created. 

Here's the excerpts from Watts' book:

It is as if we were divided into two parts. On the one hand there is the conscious “I,” at once intrigued and baffled, the creature who is caught in the trap. On the other hand there is “me,” and “me” is a part of nature — the wayward flesh with all its concurrently beautiful and frustrating limitations. 

 

“I” fancies itself as a reasonable fellow, and is forever criticizing “me” for its perversity — for having passions which get “I” into trouble, for being so easily subject to painful and irritating diseases, for having organs that wear out, and for having appetites which can never be satisfied — so designed that if you try to allay them finally and fully in one big “bust,” you get sick. 

 

…How are we to heal the split between “I” and “me,” the brain and the body, man and nature, and bring all the vicious circles which it produces to an end? How are we to experience life as something other than a honey trap in which we are the struggling flies?

 

…We do not need action — yet. We need more light. Light, here, means awareness — to be aware of life, of experience as it is at this moment, without any judgments or ideas about it. 

 

…The principal thing to understand is that there is no safety or security. One of the most vicious circles is the problem of the alcoholic. In very many cases he knows quite clearly that he is destroying himself, that, for him, liquor is poison, that he actually hates being drunk, and even dislikes the taste of liquor. 

 

And yet he drinks. For, dislike it as he may, the experience of not drinking is worse. It gives him the “horrors,” for he stands face to face with the unveiled, basic insecurity of this world.

 

Herein lies the crux of the matter. To stand face to face with insecurity is still not to understand it. To understand it, you must not face it but be it. 

 

It is like the Persian story of the sage who came to the door of Heaven and knocked. From within the voice of God asked, “Who is there?” and the sage answered “It is I.” “In this House,” replied the voice, “there is no room for thee and me.” So the sage went away and spent many years pondering over this answer in deep meditation.

 

Returning a second time, the voice asked the same question, and again the sage answered “It is I.” The door remained closed. After some years he returned for the third time, and, at his knocking, the voice once more demanded, “Who is there?” And the sage cried, It is thyself!” The door opened.

 

…We do not actually understand that there is no security until we realize that this “I” does not exist.

Comments

[vinny]

The simple mystical teachings were kept hidden for many ages, the logic behind asceticism was breaking identification with mind and body, that logic was not explained. Himalayan Mystics were living without food and water by Sungazing, even that was kept hidden. Earlier Saints were having tremendous passion for divine path, now with modern education and exposure people no longer believe in asceticism, they believe in path for householder. If he is infusing his own honest experiences and changing the old path, it is good. Even Baba Faqir Chand changed the old teachings with Chandian effect.

[vinny]

When David Lane interviewed Prof Bhagat Ram Kamal, he asks him what happened next ? Prof Kamal says form of Faqir Chand stopped to come, there was light, tremendous light, it is consciousness, super consciousness. My dear David, Who am I? I am bubble of consciousness, when I come in body I become jiva/being and enjoy this show.

[Spencer Tepper]

Charan Singh used to tell a similar story. When the Lord comes to knock on your door, the lover can only answer, "It's you."

[Spencer Tepper]

Oops.. Memory.
'When the true lover knocks on the door of God and the Lord asks' Who Is It? ' the lover can only answer' It's You. '

[Jen]

Thanks for the reminder of how Gurinder has changed so much of the old version into the new version of Sant Mat.

Makes him sound more honourable imo.

I think he probably reads your blog Brian !!

[tucson]

The new Sant Mat is so different from the old that they are completely different philosophies. In the old, the master is perfect and indispensable. In the new, the master is imperfect and dispensable.

The new master says the old teachings are a misunderstanding. Why would his predecessors promulgate a misunderstanding? What does that make them? In their eyes, what would that make him, a heretic?

If indeed the new master says the old teachings are a misunderstanding, then why are all the books teaching Sant Mat 1.0 still offered as representative of true Sant Mat teachings? Or are they? I haven't been involved lately. Maybe Sant Mat 3.0 is just a rumor and Gurinder is still sticking with the old? Are the old teachings just amusing curiosities, anachronisms, palliatives for the unsophisticated masses of a bygone era to be supplanted the teachings by a more 'hip' master in tune with the mindset of current times?

If I were a seeker or current follower I would find this unsettling.

Who really is Gurinder? Who were Charan, Jagat, Sawan and Swami Ji ?

Who knows what or anything?

How does one know that?

[Jim Sutherland]

If Sant Mat 3 is the norm for Gurinder now, than he isn’t even qualified to be even a Christian Ordained Minister. He “ might” qualify to be a Deacan, but even then, he would need the Blessings of the Elders of what ever Church Denominstion he labored in. I could quote the Nrw Testament requirements explaning how a God Seeker is called to the Ministry, but that would not be invited by this “ Church” of mixed opinions.

But, I still feel definitely, I WAS Called to the Ministry, and was Ordained by three different Denominational Christian Organisations, to serve, and was Licensed to Preach by the largest Pentecostal Denomination on the Planet. I ” studied to show myself approved”, passed all requirements of all the Parent Organisations over seeing the Churches I preached in, and I worked for Free, never accepting payment, and many times, financing my own activities and supplies out of my own Day Job Salaries.

I visited and preached in County Jails, prayed for the sick and dying in hospitals, and counseled on the phones.

Just to let Manjit and AP and others know, I Still feel that I have been called to the Ministry, and called to serve, but my Seva is, and has always been, directly to God Who called me. I proselytize, Pimp, encourage, warn, alert, counsel, and still even Preach, on occassion, if I find an Audience of One or Two, willing to listen to what I have to share, and if I find a soap Box to stand on, or a Media to share on, as long as the “ Congregation” , is not hostel and nasty. If I even charged $3.99 for my thoughts, then, every single Buyer who purchased my Book or Thoughts would immeditely become another Boss, or Member of the Entity employing me. That is why I would never offer any advice or Wisdom of ANY kind for payment,....as David Lane has been doing, and now, Brian Hines seems to be jumping on the Book Sales Band Wagon.

The only Book I would pay for, would be Manjit’s, when and if, he decides to write one.

Nuff said,

Cheers,
Jim

[Jen]

Hi Jim,

I find what you say curious and hope you don't mind if I ask you why, if you are still preaching the Christian religion did you become a satsangi and which Master gave you initiation?

[Spencer Tepper]

Jim
Brian is a writer and a philosopher. It's his life's work. Every worker is worth his wages.

Please avoid small thinking.

[Brian Hines]

Jim, do you understand anything about writing and publishing books? Doesn't sound like it. I spent several years of unpaid time researching and writing the first edition of God's Whisper, Creation's Thunder. When it was published, Radha Soami Satsang Beas bought several thousand copies for resale to the sangat. I got no royalties on those sales.

Later, I got a small amount, a bit over a dollar a book, as I recall. I spent thousands of dollars of my own money on purchasing reprint rights, plus dozens of books that I bought when I was doing my research. This was done in the spirit of seva, volunteer service for RSSB.

After the initial publisher went out of business, my book went out of print. I shortened and simplified the book, but waited many years before deciding I should get a second edition published. A firm here in Salem did the interior design and book cover for me. That cost me $3,200 this year. I then had to pay for the formatting of the Kindle edition, and the person who did that recommended some changes to the interior design. I'm waiting to get the bill for that work.

I earn a bit under $5.00 for each paperback book sale, and about $2, if I recall correctly, for the $3,95 Kindle sale that you criticized. Do the math. If I sell 700 paperback books, I'll about break even on the direct costs I incurred to get a second edition published. Of course, I've spent hundreds of hours rewriting the book, proofreading drafts, checking the interior design, and such. I didn't write this book to make money. I wrote it because Gurinder Singh, the RSSB guru, encouraged me to do after I contacted him in the early 1990s with the idea for this book.

So, please, next time you feel like criticizing an author for charging for a book, don't do it. Very few authors make even minimum wage for the time they put into writing a book and getting it published. It's a labor of love, not a money-making proposition for the vast majority of authors.

[Account Deleted]

Dear Mr. Brian,

Baba Gurinder Singh talks a lot about Sachkhand and Satpurush/Satnaam over here in India. I have been listening to his discourses from my childhood. He also tells that Sachkhand is the true home of the soul and it can only be achieved through Bhajan-Simran(Surat Sahbad Yoga). I never heard him saying that the Master will not come at the time of death in my whole life. He doesn't talk about inner regions during his discourses but he talked about them and told each and every information about inner realms when he initiated me. Some of this information cannot be found in Sant mat literature and I was surprised to know them.

[Jim Sutherland]

Spencer, do you not understand that working for wages requires Employers willing to pay wages ? Who ever pays the wages becomes the Employers.

Employers are hired Guns, if they accept wages. Now, you have become one of Brian Hine’s Employers, by paying him $3.99 . Now, you are one of his Bosses, and have paid for his Service, or Intellectual Knowledge, and are now legally licensed to either praise his Service or criticize it.

You have been doing both.

You are one of the unlicensed Street Peddlers, in this Church, peddling your own private Brand of Theology, “tainted” with an eclectic mixure of a little RSSB, a little Bible, a little personal advice, but given for free,...so far.

The only License you have been given to Preach here, in the Church, was Brian Hine’s personal Invitation.

Now, you think you own a piece of him by paying him $3.99 as one of his Employers, and have taken the liberty to correct his mistakes that you believe he needs to hear from one of his new Employers.

Gosh, for a measely $3.99, you are now acting like one of the Board of Directors.

As for, me, I am licensed and Ordained to,...”Go out in to the world and Preach the Gospel to every Creature.....”

That is what I have been doing, since 1977, and this is not the first Church I have preached in,....unpaid, never as a hired Gun, so never accept any Bosses.

😇
Jim

[Brian Hines]

Saurabh, it's fairly well known that Gurinder Singh gives different versions of the teachings to Western audiences and to Indian audiences. He's good at "marketing" his take on the RSSB philosophy to a particular audience. I've heard from several people who have heard Gurinder Singh speak to Western audiences that he has indeed said that Sach Khand is a level of consciousness, not an actual place. Since Indian audiences are more traditional, by and large, I suspect that the guru tells them what they are used to hearing.

[Spencer Tepper]

Jim
"The worker is worth vwith his wages"
Jesus Christ
Like 10:7

[Jim Sutherland]

@Brian,....I never bought your book, so have not become one of your Employers, and if you notice, I have not criticized it, I may have bought it from RSSB if they sold it, and most likely, would have praised it then, as I did all of the RSSB Books they sold, at readonable prices, except the last two, that obviously edited by Gurinder.

It is not the amount of money paid to purchase a Product, it is Marketing hoping to sell, your Intellectual Knowledge as a Hired Gun, no matter how much you sell it for.

If I buy it directly from you, than I have purchased my right to either praise or criticize your Product, Licensing me to become one of your Employers.

So, I won’t critique your Book, unless I pay you to read it.

I like Free advice better. I trust it more.

But I think you got raked over the coals by Gurinder, for what ever its worth.

😇
Jim

[Spencer Tepper]

Hi Tucson

The misunderstanding is in every age. So the teachings require adaptation.

[Jim Sutherland]

Spencer, the “Wages” of sin, is death.

😇

[Account Deleted]

Dear Mr. Brian,

I think there is some kind of misunderstanding. My aunt lives in Qatar. I will just enquire from her.

[tucson]

Hi Spence,

"The misunderstanding is in every age. So the teachings require adaptation."

In the old teachings the master is perfect and indispensable. In the new, the master is imperfect and dispensable. This is quite an adaptation.

[Account Deleted]

1)The guru is God in human form- Yes he is the incarnation of God on earth who comes from Anami(the final stage). This type of Guru is called 'Param Sant'. Eg- Kabir

2)The guru is perfect, possessing God’s divine qualities- Yes true for a Param Sant. Examples include Kabir.

3)God has chosen certain souls to return to Him- Yes it is true. You might be referring to the principle of marked and unmarked souls. But True Masters have changed this rule long back.

4)God delegates the guru to initiate these “marked souls”- Yes true. But an unmarked soul who wants to achieve God is also initiated by a True Master.

5)Without initiation by a perfect guru, God-realization is impossible- Yes impossible for sure. This is His 'Rule Of Law'. This Rule of Law cannot be understood by the mind which is limited only to the Trikuti(2nd spiritual plane). One who wants to understand this Rule of Law need to reach a level of consciousness called Sachkhand.

6)The guru is a human who is seeking God, just like us- Yes for some time initially before finding a Master himself. But once he reaches the Anami he becomes perfect. These type of Gurus are called Puran Sant. A Puran Sant is a soul which achieves Anami and becomes God after merging into the Ocean.

7)The guru is imperfect, just like us- Yes before reaching the Anami. But once he starts initiating and reaches the Anami it does not mean that he is imperfect. Such types are called Puran Sant.

8)Whether we want to pursue God-realization is up to us- Yes this is our choice. But who will leave God will pay a heavy price.

9)The guru is a spiritual guide, not a savior- Who told this? He is a combination of both.

10)There are many paths to God, not just Sant Mat- Yes. There are two types of God. The God of the the worldly people is called Satan and the God of the Gurumukhs is called Satpurush. The choice should be made by the soul.

[vinny]

David Lane talk with Prof Bhagat Ram Kamal available on neuralsurfer David's channel on youtube. Prof Kamal says Baba Faqir Chand said " Am I to catch hold of you and take to inner regions?? No, it is my word, my instructions". What are the instructions of Faqir Chand?? You can worship that primal energy/sound current in any form, focus on any form will remove the focus on desires and thoughts. Energy will be concentrated and light will be there due to concentrated energy.

[Turan]

All these comments, these tales, experiences and opinions, around Sant Mat etc. are amazing, amazing in the sense that the simplicity of life can become so complicated. To me it is in the same vein as the beliefs, rituals and dress that is part of every orthodox religion.

Why have we made life so complex. It probably hinges on the fact that we think. Nothing wrong with thinking, it plays a large part in our survival. Our problem (and it is a problem to us) is the identification with our constructed sense of 'self'. We (as humans) not only have the natural instinct to protect our organism we also feel we have to protect the 'self', an entity composed of experience and information that is so transitory and vulnerable an injury or disease can alter and destroy it.

Whatever knowledge or belief we hold, even every thought always has a survival factor. Thinking is what gives us the ability to interpret the world(s) we inhabit. Initially it helped us to expand our natural instincts of physical preservation to consciously plan ahead, make decisions and organise.

For humans the survival impetus extends beyond physical survival to the survival of that which constitutes our minds – our knowledge, ideas, opinions and beliefs – it protects the conceptualised ego, of self, of a 'me'. Whether we hold religious, scientific or secular beliefs about such issues is not important, what is important (to the individual) is the fact that his/her particular mindset in some way maintains his physical and mental life.

Yet we are impelled to protect and maintain this illusory creation – generally by latching on to a 'teaching' or belief system, perhaps some teacher, saint or guru that offers us some kind of hope that we are more than mind and body and usually along with the possibility that this 'self', this 'I' can continue after death - and we will defend this illusion as we defend our real lives.

All our thoughts, comments, opinions, beliefs – and our so-called certainties – is merely vanity; the vanity that thinks we humans with our ability to think (particularly in the abstract) is a special enough tool to think we can know and thereby give meaning and purpose to ourselves and the universe.

[vinny]

As Prof Bhagat Ram Kamal [ Disciple of Baba Faqir Chand] tells in his satsangs :
Imagination of tea/ coffee makes us drink tea/coffee. Imagination of cinema makes us go to cinema. Imagination in dreams can lead to that person walking in sleep. Imagination of women will lead to loss of energy in lust. Positive imagination will replace the negative imagination and we will be saved from loss of energy.
My personal new ideas in sant mat : Even imagination and love for Cricket players and game of cricket can save the person from carnal imagination and can lead to rapid progress.

[777]

-
So why scolding and starting calling names when I say :

Just dive in the Anahabad Shabd !
Next you are that and always was

777

PS
Version 2 is version one as version 3 will be
Of course Master will not come when already there

Of course you build these regions with your higher mind
next your Soul

Of course no single atom / quark is not HIM

Just start liking HIM and his gifts

777

Yes Turan :
Vanity, like St Paul says: vanity of vanities within proud

Sin is the idea that you exist
plus Eve's fake apple which was a steak

Jim : one $ spend on killing Jemen' children
or immigrant children suppression
with your permission
is worse than a century watching porn

Not to speak about billions of suffering
by selfish climate regulations

google 5th Av + 666

[Spencer Tepper]

Hi Tucson

You wrote

"In the old teachings the master is perfect and indispensable. In the new, the master is imperfect and dispensable. This is quite an adaptation."

You see this issue of perfect has been around for a long time. Maharaji used to say the Master must function within the same physical limitations as anyone else, including the limitations of the brain.

He also said the real Master is within. The physical master isn't the real master, nor is the physical disciple the real disciple.

The entire point is focus on that perfection within ourselves. Master is the ideal of that.

He is perfectly suited for the suitable disciple. He is perfectly suited to taking souls home.

As for His power as God in Human form, I think we can follow Great Master's advice and consider Him a good friend until facts prove something else, as inevitably they do.

The necessity of a Master?

Master is necessary at at a specific point. Difficult to explain that. For devotion to God you don't need a master. God will come to you.

But at some point when you want to perfect your worship you will seek guidance and willingly submit to instruction and correction. That pull from inside to the Master and that charismatic connection to Him (or Her) is all through spirit. No one needs to worry about the timing.

So then it isn't your ego. When you really must give up ego, it's not a job for ego.

Teachings are identical.

[Turan]

We are a pathetic lot with our reliance on masters and such like. What's so difficult with getting out of our conceptual minds and experiencing life as it is. But I guess that does not provide the numerous escapes we search for in our attempts to escape the confusions of our self-imposed dualistic views of life.

. . . and so it goes on – we will protect our mental inventions no matter what. After all, the minds of we humans are dominated by maintaining a false sense of 'self' – the illusory concept that we have now sadly become dependent on. We will no doubt continue with trying to maintain and preserve this 'self' - which we believe is who we are!

[tucson]

Spence,

I see a lot of this as twisting words around to suit a point of view.

For example:
Two different minds hear the same words from Donald Trump: "We need to prevent people from certain lawless countries that harbor terrorists from coming into our country until we can vet them properly."

One mind thinks, "That makes sense. It's a national security precaution to prevent terrorist attacks."

Another mind thinks: "Racist, racist! Trump hates Muslims and brown people. He's a xenophobe! He's a white supremacist! He's a tyrant! He's Hitler!""

So, I think it depends on the mind hearing what Gurinder says.

To my mind it sounds substantially different from the old teachings (dogma) of Charan and before.

Not a big deal. I'm not on the RS path anymore. I'm just talkin'.

[Spencer Tepper]

I get it Tucson.

It just seems to me folks never really listened to what their Master was actually saying, which an honest review can clear up.

[Jim Sutherland]

@777,....your Recent French Politicians certainly were not sprouting Angel Wings, either!

https://www.thelocal.fr/20160511/eight-sex-scandals-that-rocked-french-politics

But there were some past French men I admire. I have been initiated in to the “ Traditional Martanist” Degrees, Three Degrees, so am obviously fond of Papus, Pasqually and the other French Esotericsts founders of the early System. Plus, the present Imprritor of AMORC is French, and headquarted in Franve, of which Inam also initiated in to ALL of their Degrees.

But my absolute all time favorate was Allen Kardec who wrote The Spirits Book, and founded Spiritism in the late 1800s. He wrote 5 Books in the Series, which I own and have read. The Spirits Book remains next to my Bible in my Night Stand.

You might consider down loaded all 5 Books of Allan Kardec's, starting with The Spirits Book, which is free in pdf on the Internet.

Spending time reading those Books will be MUCH more benificial to you than watching porn cams.

Jim

[Jen]

Turan, you say "amazing in the sense that the simplicity of life can become so complicated" "Whatever knowledge or belief we hold, even every thought always has a survival factor" "we are impelled to protect and maintain this illusory creation" "All our thoughts, comments, opinions, beliefs – and our so-called certainties – is merely vanity"

Not all of the people here on this blog are on the same wavelength.

I don't agree about the vanity. Life is of course about surviving here on this strange world and its not easy when we don't have a belief to hold on to.

This life is NOT simple.

It is all illusion but some of us are certainly not trying to protect and maintain this illusory creation.

Life is an ongoing mystery and its natural to want to find answers and remedies on how to deal with it.

Always with the vanity/ego preaching! I'm so over it. We all have an ego and if we didn't we would just be robots walking around mindlessly following our programming (hmmm does describe quite a lot of people and also, do robots have egos?). Anyway, the people complaining about the preaching are actually also doing the preaching.

Quite a lot of this won't make sense but that is precisely my intention lol

Just my thoughts Turan.
Cheers Bro

[Jim Sutherland]

My favorate Indian American Immigrant’s latest Movie to hit the Screens! I will go.

https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/amp/news/dinesh-dsouza-compares-trump-lincoln-new-movie-trailer-1123976

Jim

[Jen]

Hi Jim,

Thanks for the link.

The world is so divided now. The violent demonstrations. The absolute hatred people are spewing everywhere, especially against Trump supporters. So much brain washing and triggering. Its like watching a violent movie spreading despair and anger, fear and hatred. I'm amazed at the programming and control that people are being subjected to. Who are these beings who are hidden from view and are doing their best to destabilise and stop their country being great again.

[manjit]

Hi Tucson,

I hope all is well with you! You may not recall, but I think we had a few like-minded discussions many, many years back here, back in the days of the notorious & entertaining "tAo"? (where is he, btw, does anyone know??).

Anyway, you wrote: "For example:
Two different minds hear the same words from Donald Trump: "We need to prevent people from certain lawless countries that harbor terrorists from coming into our country until we can vet them properly."

One mind thinks, "That makes sense. It's a national security precaution to prevent terrorist attacks.""

I think that once we get to the state where we indiscriminately close off our hearts and borders to "others" based on the extremely remote chance of being hurt in a "terrorist" attack, in a life and existence that is extremely precarious and fragile at the very best and "secure" of times, we can safely state that we are no longer "free", for we are imprisoned by our unexamined fears and insecurities so much so that we shut out hearts and minds down without even noticing we are doing it, rationalising it away as "rational" or "reasonable". We can rapidly become inhumane humans.

Such is the sway of fear.

Another effect of fear is that it causes us to think and act irrationally.

In a country where statistically you are far more likely to be killed by an act of domestic terrorism, often motivated by precisely the kind of "right-wing" views those like Trump like to play on, nothing else is seen but this Islamic "other", and these far more frequent, and pressing domestic issues are not simply ignored, but in fact generated by these fears and insecurities.

In a country where domestic institutionalised sexual abuse, objectification & sexism towards women is so prolific, that Trump can be elected as President, the role-model of a generation, despite his transparent disregard for women as anything other than sex-objects, most of his electorate, women included, are more concerned about the far less statistical likely-hood of being attacked or raped by a "foreigner" than encountering institutionalised abuse by a domestic person at some, or many, points of their life.

This is what fear is....irrational.

But that isn't the problem on a personal level, on a life lived level.... the a-political problem is this; that we are closing our hearts down, lacking genuine compassion & understanding towards the "other", and dressing this up in "rational" and "reasonable" arguments about self-defence and protecting our "borders".

Build as many walls as you like, as high as you like.

The fear will remain on the inside, brother, trapped with you.

Life is short...... I personally wouldn't want to live it this way.

I will carry the scorpion across the river....let it sting me, if it is in it's nature to do so.......I must fulfil MY nature and carry it across! Merrily, merrily, merrily, life is but a dream.........

Peace my friend.

[Spencer Tepper]

Hi Jen and Jim
Politics is the arena of complaint. Always filled with emotion. People need someone to love, to worship, and others to hate, to vilify, even to crucify.

It's interesting how we don't really leave the Master. We just adopt another one.

But I hardly think any politician has ever been worthy of worship as if they were perfect and could do no wrong. Because when we defend them knowing their faults, for some higher reason, we end up making excuses for their failings as if, functionally, they were perfect and do not need to account for anything.

It's interesting to watch people leap out of what they perceive to be one prison and jump at their own will into a much darker one.

Meditation pulls us from all that, if we are loyal to our own meditation. There are much higher things to love than politicians. The very act of joining one party places one in active contention with the other. The whole system is designed, in the name of peace, to encourage conflict.

I don't think politics has solved anything and by its own flawed structure can never be a pathway to harmony and peace and divergent people, cultures and subcultures.

[Account Deleted]

Dear all,

How to open the third eye-
https://www.scribd.com/document/382901452/How-to-Open-the-Third-Eye

Best of luck.

Bye

[Account Deleted]

Internet discussion and arguing is a wastage of precious time and energy. Hence I quit.
Bye.

-Saurabh Sawan

[Jen]

Spencer you say: But I hardly think any politician has ever been worthy of worship as if they were perfect and could do no wrong.

Who the heck does that! I certainly would never worship anyone, never mind a politician.

So many people have no idea what it is like to live in fear. Luckily I left the country where I was born (South Africa) with my husband and children over 40 years ago. At that time there was law and order. Recently I looked up the statistics and in 2016/17 the statistics state that 52 people are murdered every day. Thats 18,980 a year and not all murders are reported. These numbers include black as well as white South Africans. The murder rate increased rapidly in late 1980s and early 1990s. Also, South Africa is the rape capital of the world and has the highest incidences of child and baby rape in the world. Breaks my heart!

Sorry Brian, this is off topic so I won't say anymore, its just a very emotional topic for me, so sitting in meditation is not going to help me. Not having compassion for others seems to me to be quite selfish, to not care about what others are going through.

[tucson]

Hi Manjit,

Sure, I remember you from years back. You always had interesting comments. Sometimes I associated you with a character on the blog called "the elephant" who was intelligent but seemed to go out of his way to deliberately misunderstand me, at times. Not saying that is what you are doing now. As I recall you were into weight training and diet.

I really don't see the issue about not allowing immigrants from chaotic countries that harbor terrorists as fear based. I guess you could call it that but I call it practical common sense. We have professed enemies in those places, a lot of them. Until we can determine who is trying to get into the USA to do harm and those who aren't it seems prudent to wait until we can. It would be "heartless" and "irrational" to me to allow potentially dangerous people into the country that would harm the citizens who are the president's first responsibility to protect. I think, rather than imprisoning us in fear, this sort of policy sets us free.. free from the threat of those who would impose their radical ideology upon us and imprison us within its confines.

You wrote: "In a country where domestic institutionalised sexual abuse, objectification & sexism towards women is so prolific, that Trump can be elected as President, the role-model of a generation, despite his transparent disregard for women as anything other than sex-objects, most of his electorate, women included, are more concerned about the far less statistical likely-hood of being attacked or raped by a "foreigner" than encountering institutionalised abuse by a domestic person at some, or many, points of their life."

-- I think what you say is an exaggerated perception of Trump and sexual abuse in the USA but let's say, for the sake of argument, what you say is true. Then why would we want to exacerbate the problem by allowing foreigners from countries whose religion and culture allow them to subjugate women and treat them as property?

You wrote: "In a country where statistically you are far more likely to be killed by an act of domestic terrorism, often motivated by precisely the kind of "right-wing" views those like Trump like to play on, nothing else is seen but this Islamic "other", and these far more frequent, and pressing domestic issues are not simply ignored, but in fact generated by these fears and insecurities."

-- By far, domestic violence in the USA is not caused by right wing ideologues or the fears and insecurities generated by them. Rather, the violence is caused by criminals and the emotionally deranged. Your information sources are incorrect.

[Dungeness]

You will NOT be able to succeed through meditation. Meditation is just to make you give up. You can never get there through your efforts.

Now these kind of teachings have never been given before in rssb.

No, that echoes exactly what Charan Singh says in letter 377
in "Die to Live":

Q. Why doesn't the Master just take us up? Why do we have
to go through all this meditation?

A. How do you know Master is not taking you up? Do you think
your meditation is taking you up? Nobody's meditation is
taking him up to the Father. It's absolutely wrong. It's only
the Lord and Master who are uprooting us from here and
and taking us to that level. If anyone says, "I can reach
back to the Father by my effort, by my meditation", he's
wrong.
...

The rest of Maharaji's answer makes it even clearer.

[Dungeness]

You will NOT be able to succeed through meditation. Meditation is just to make you give up. You can never get there through your efforts.

Now these kind of teachings have never been given before in rssb.

No, that echoes exactly what Charan Singh says in letter 377
in "Die to Live":

Q. Why doesn't the Master just take us up? Why do we have
to go through all this meditation?

A. How do you know Master is not taking you up? Do you think
your meditation is taking you up? Nobody's meditation is
taking him up to the Father. It's absolutely wrong. It's only
the Lord and Master who are uprooting us from here and
and taking us to that level. If anyone says, "I can reach
back to the Father by my effort, by my meditation", he's
wrong.
...

The rest of Maharaji's answer makes it even clearer.

[manjit]

Hey Tucson!

You wrote: "Sometimes I associated you with a character on the blog called "the elephant" who was intelligent but seemed to go out of his way to deliberately misunderstand me, at times."

No! I do not believe I have ever posted here on this blog using any another other username than "manjit". I have certainly never posted anywhere with a username resembling "the elephant". I do recall, though, that I once wrote a post here which contained the words "the elephant in the room"...and that very shortly afterwards, somebody appeared using the username "the elephant" - that was not me, but I could understand how a conflation could easily occur, as it's very difficult to maintain clarity on forums with anonymous posters like here.

In regards the rest of your post, and your defense of divisive policies, and your attempt to rationalise this is all very sensible, rational, reasonable etc; it is entirely your prerogative to carry this baggage around with you, it is your life - incredibly fragile and fleeting, however "secure" your borders are - to live with how you please.

To build walls and destroy bridges.

Or build bridges and destroy walls.

It is our choice which mind-state we wish to inhabit and exemplify during our short and precarious existence. We can cling to illusory notions of "safety" and "security" - ironically making the world a far more dangerous place in the process, because indeed reality is merely a reflection of our group-minds, and fear and distrust breeds and perpetuates further fear and distrust. (this is the irrationality of fear......it is like closing borders indiscriminately to the men, women and children fleeing from Islamic countries where conflict is occurring, but then Trump agreeing a $100+ billion arms trade deal with the corrupt Saudi Arabian royal family - baring in mind the extremist form of Wahabiism, which gave birth to Al Qaeda and motivated 19 odd of the SAUDI terrorist attackers of 9/11, and bin Laden himself clearly stated it is the propping up of the corrupt Saudi Royal family by the US which was behind his terrorist attack. It is like closing borders but then uni-laterally declaring Jerusalem the capital of Israel - again, the only other main reason bin Laden HIIMSELF said was the reason behind the 9/11 attacks was Israel's treatment of the Palestinians and the US's support of Israel. So, politicians like Trump who play on people's fear and insecurities, like puppets on a string, say ridiculous and divisive things like "let's build a wall around our country", "let's ban anyone and everyone coming from certain countries, even if they are children from war torn countries that our own foreign policies are implicit in creating the conflict of - like ISIL, which was born, without any doubt or argument, due to the US's invasion of Iraq to deplete their natural resources under the pretence of "the war on terror". Ousting Saddam, who hated bin Laden and vice versa, killing hundreds of thousands of innocent men, women and children and putting in a puppet regime, par for the course for the west's involvement in oil-rich countries, is what created the beast ISIL. It is Jungian dark shadow made flesh. Our worst fears created by our very own unexamined actions.

But, people do not see or understand such complexities, how we are all inextricably connected to each other, and how social elites can manipulate masses by pandering to their fears & insecurities (which is the nature of human existence, wherever or whenever you may be) by distracting them from the truth of what is really happening, and instead feeding them jingoistic nonsense that simply feeds the monster of their fear & insecurity and keeps them divided and well and truly conquered - and really, what is that unexamined fear all about? That, ultimately, we must all die, that our lives are a fleeting phantasmagoria. When the bad "other" is banished, we may be surprised to find our fear has done nothing but increased, for we are all still destined to die, perhaps before the day is even done.

Sure, any simpleton understands the logic of showing "compassion" to ones own self by closing oneself off to those deemed as "others" to protect that which one believes is "self" - the boundaries of this conceptually imagined "self" can be as sparse and stingy as literally just one's own self, or to then include family, then friends, then work colleagues, than our local town, then our country, then the entire human race, then perhaps all conscious living beings. We are all at different levels of identification, with a desire to protect and show compassion towards whatever level of egoic identification with "self" we are able to expand our being too. Once there is only "us", and no "us & them", then perhaps, just perhaps, there will be some hope for this human race of ours.

But as I say, this is all an individual choice, or perhaps no-choice, as we are so conditioned.

Carry whatever load you, or anyone else, wish to carry. We are all precisely where we're meant to be, products of our own minds, beliefs, attitudes etc

I can only feel compassion, for it seems like an awfully heavy burden to carry.

I wish you find the peace and security you desire,

Manjit

[777]

Hi Jim

Funny, you think I m french
because Im Living Like God in France

You seem a judge from the which burning in Salem USA
Also funny that I'm told I have to save your Soul ( not yet , later . . .)

777

[777]

Turan
"In the old teachings the master is perfect and indispensable. In the new, the master is imperfect and dispensable. This is quite an adaptation."

I see no difference :

This Person the SatGuru gets ALL and ALL necessary help
from God Almighty, . . each nano second

God can choose anybody to work for HIM
This strong connection makes Him Perfect

777,

[777]

One of the lovliest manifestations I remember, and I told before
is
Me > my wife : I love Him so much !

Within a tenth second an advertising plain ( normally fly over the beaches but it was februari)

with the text on the tail-banner

" I LOVE You too "

The word LOVE was a big red heart

Of course this was from a pilot or a rich person
to fly over his beloved_house but I hav still strong goose bumps

Gurinder was already the SatGuru at that time
OMG - - WOW

777

Sorry Saur , you r missing this one
We have no neighbours so it's so special

[vinny]

Immigrants want that Americans should not care for prosperity and security of natives first, ironically they are going to America for the same. Third world fake gurudom, guru-criminals-politicians nexus,lynch and rape countries should be improved rather than overpopulate America and reduce it to third world country.

[Spencer Tepper]

Hi Jen
You wrote
"So many people have no idea what it is like to live in fear."

Is that a bad thing? What does fear lead us to do? To stop loving our brothers and sisters? To be blind to their needs? To violate the golden rule?

To actually harm innocent children?

I think it depends upon what we are afraid of. If I'm afraid of other people, very, very fearful, I may even strike out preemptively to protect myself. And thereby harm innocent people, and now grow enemies on all sides, and actually create even more of the fear I wanted to escape.

But what if I fear offending God? What If I fear weakening the bond of peace and joy I have with my Father?

What if I fear harming an innocent child, even more so than I fear for my own life?

Then I become humble. I withdraw into a small space within. I seek my Master.

And that becomes a palace of peace and joy. And from that strength all fear disappears. And I can go anywhere without fear, and only modest caution to guide me.

And in those places there is now one less fearful person ready to strike and one more kind person mindful of the true nature of those people around her, and ready to help them. Helping them, creating allies, fear becomes less and less necessary.

The solution to fear must be within. Then, in peace, we act appropriately to protect everyone, all the innocent people of all nations, all colors, all orientations, including and especially children.

[777]

Brian
Randomly I came along :
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f4l7tHGLgA4

Perhaps for your Salem blog

"Save these kids "

7

[Jim Sutherland]

Can’t we all just get along? Why should Aussies not welcome open borders and just allow Islamic regugees in to their country and support them by compassionate welfare from working legal Tax Payers?

The U.S. Is not alone in trying to deal with these challenges.

https://youtu.be/sknf4eIuBbE

Cheers or,.....Tears?
Jim

[D.r]

Jim, do you like the Bhagavad Gita?

[Jim Sutherland]

@ D.r.,.......yes, I like the Gita.

https://harekrishnarevolution.wordpress.com/2011/07/02/8-4-million-species-of-life/

Jim

[manjit]

Hey Spencer - beautiful posts & I quite agree!

Hey Jim! - You write: "Can’t we all just get along? Why should Aussies not welcome open borders and just allow Islamic regugees in to their country and support them by compassionate welfare from working legal Tax Payers?

The U.S. Is not alone in trying to deal with these challenges."

It is somewhat amusing, albeit in a sad way, to hear about troubles of americans and australians with their immigration "problems".

People who themselves are descendants of relatively recent "immigrants" who forcefully took over the land of the indigenous peoples, massacring them in genocides that caused untold suffering, the ripples of which are still flowing to this day. Nations which continue to oppress the rights of these ancient indigenous peoples, making a mockery and joke of the suffering imposed upon them, even going so far as to use racist imagery reminiscent of the anti-semetic cartoons so prolific during the Nazi reign national sports franchises, as "fun" mascots for these nationally loved franchises.

Such is human nature.

"Can't we all just get along?", Jim asks.

I find it sad to state, but I don't think in our current state of evolution, extreme self-obsession & indulgence, and utter disregard for those our egos have deemed as "other", but no, I don't think we can all just get along!

Cheers.

[vinny]

Immigrants want free lunch without feeling any responsibility to rectify criminal gurus infested cockroach countries also called "developing nations"

[vinny]

These immigrants have the perverted mentality to destroy America and to throw out Americans from their own country. How the people of third world cockroach countries captured the land of tribals and became feudal landlords they won't tell the world. When these landlords were defeated by British Empire, their cockroach mind started thinking how to steal the technology of Americans and Britishers and use that for killing innocent people

[manjit]

Dear Jim - let's retread some 15+ year old discussions from the RSS forum we had :)

Do you recall when I said I read the entire Bible as a child during one summer, and you that I was being dishonest as it was not possible? Well, it was true!

As a child, very young, since I can remember, I've had 3 gurus that I loved dearly, was "attracted" to and fascinated by, deeply & obsessively (I could tell you some stories of very odd behaviour, won't!! :):, Guru Nanak, Gautama Buddha and Jesus.

You are someone with a history with Christianity.

And I so loved Jesus, his stories, his teachings, they made me very emotional, even as a young child. I was fascinated by this imagined "presence" of him I had in my mind, such a beautiful, loving master. My heart melted just thinking about him, and it does now to this very momemt writing this. It may well be imagined, indeed almost certainly is, but I am enamoured of my fantasy of what Jesus represents:

"Matthew 6:14-15 For if you forgive others their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you, but if you do not forgive others their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses."

"Matthew 7:1-2 Judge not, that you be not judged. For with the judgment you pronounce you will be judged, and with the measure you use it will be measured to you."

"Matthew 18:21-22 Then Peter came up and said to him, “Lord, how often will my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? As many as seven times?” Jesus said to him, “I do not say to you seven times, but seventy-seven times."

"Romans 12:20 To the contrary, “if your enemy is hungry, feed him; if he is thirsty, give him something to drink; for by so doing you will heap burning coals on his head.”"

"2 Corinthians 1:3-4 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of mercies and God of all comfort, who comforts us in all our affliction, so that we may be able to comfort those who are in any affliction, with the comfort with which we ourselves are comforted by God."

"Colossians 3:12-13 Put on then, as God’s chosen ones, holy and beloved, compassionate hearts, kindness, humility, meekness, and patience, bearing with one another and, if one has a complaint against another, forgiving each other; as the Lord has forgiven you, so you also must forgive."

"James 1:27 Religion that is pure and undefiled before God, the Father, is this: to visit orphans and widows in their affliction, and to keep oneself unstained from the world."

"Matthew 5:9 Blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall be called sons of God.

"Matthew 7:12 So whatever you wish that others would do to you, do also to them, for this is the Law and the Prophets."

"Galatians 6:2 Bear one another’s burdens, and so fulfill the law of Christ."

"Ephesians 4:32 Be kind to one another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, as God in Christ forgave you."

"1 Peter 4:10 As each has received a gift, use it to serve one another, as good stewards of God’s varied grace:"

"“‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did for me’” (Matthew 25:40 NIV)."

"Just then a lawyer stood up to test Jesus. “Teacher,” he said, “what must I do to inherit eternal life?” He said to him, “What is written in the law? What do you read there?” He answered, “You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your strength, and with all your mind; and your neighbor as yourself.” And he said to him, “You have given the right answer; do this, and you will live.”

But wanting to justify himself, he asked Jesus, “And who is my neighbor?” Jesus replied, “A man was going down from Jerusalem to Jericho, and fell into the hands of robbers, who stripped him, beat him, and went away, leaving him half dead. Now by chance a priest was going down that road; and when he saw him, he passed by on the other side. So likewise a Levite, when he came to the place and saw him, passed by on the other side. But a Samaritan while traveling came near him; and when he saw him, he was moved with pity. He went to him and bandaged his wounds, having poured oil and wine on them. Then he put him on his own animal, brought him to an inn, and took care of him. The next day he took out two denarii, gave them to the innkeeper, and said, ‘Take care of him; and when I come back, I will repay you whatever more you spend.’ Which of these three, do you think, was a neighbor to the man who fell into the hands of the robbers?” He said, “The one who showed him mercy.” Jesus said to him, “Go and do likewise.” (Luke 10:25–37, NRSV)"

[manjit]

Ah, this is a strange discussion, actually.

Self defence, security, caution, the right to bear arms, fear, insecurity, politics and whatever other manifestion of the ego's will to self-preservation is all fine, normal, natural human nature.

I am merely discussing an approach that is not for worldly people with worldly concerns.

I am talking about Jesus's "turning the other cheek".

But, it is worth bearing in mind, that he only had a few dozen followers, this is not a teaching for the "mainstream".

Christianity, now, is another beast entirely, appropriated by a culture of materialism and self and excess, it is even used to justify the imposition of extreme suffering and oppression on people, something that the Jesus I imagine would, obviously, be utterly aghast and ashamed at.

This is not a "path" for everyone.

Some are destined to carry heavy loads.

Peace.

[vinny]

Christians are the light of the world, due to their purity of heart, they have gained enormous power to destroy any country at will. Modern Christian weapons are so dangerous that they can destroy countries without firing a single bullet or single missile by using energy of Sound current vibrating in universe.

[Spencer Tepper]

Vinny
You wrote
"Christians are the light of the world, due to their purity of heart, they have gained enormous power to destroy any country at will."

The capacity to destroy isn't light. It's destruction. It's hate.

That is the Christianity of the Spanish Inquisition, not the teachings of Jesus.

Manjit did a nice job detailing those above.

[Spencer Tepper]

"But a Samaritan while traveling came near him; and when he saw him, he was moved with pity."

Samaritans were considered misguided heretics in Jesus ' time. Yet here Jesus elevates the Samaritan, from another land and belief, above the Priests and spiritual scholars (Levites).

Compassion is a one step trip to the Tenth Gate. God rolls out the red carpet for those who have a soft heart for the suffering of the world.

[vinny]

You have to be cruel to be kind. Carnal consciousness of third world countries needs the dose of Christ's power to rectify their animal consciousness, otherwise they can be wiped out by new weapons without firing a single bullet or single missile using energy of sound current.

[Spencer Tepper]

Hi Vinny

You wrote
"You have to be cruel to be kind."
Really?
To a six month old infant?
To a ninety year old grandmother?

Idea flash!
Let's just be kind to be kind.
Because being cruel is actual cruelty to innocent children.

[tucson]

Hi Manjit,

I never thought about it that way.. 'the elephant in the room'. Now I get it years later. In regard to tAo.. he was threatening for a long time to quit this blog. I guess he finally did. I enjoyed his brusque, perceptive, commentary. Definitely an asset to the forum.

You and I have very different political views and it's complicated to address all the nuances. So many preconceptions, opinions, perceptions and misconceptions to sort through. I don't feel excessively burdened with fear baggage but I don't have rose colored glasses either. I would think some aspects of your mindset and views would be a lot of baggage to carry as well.

Anyway, we're off the topic of this thread. I wish you well. Thank you for taking the time to share your views.

[Spencer Tepper]

Here is why I admire some Atheists...
Because for absolutely zero personal benefit, and at often terrible costs, even cost of life and limb, they will extend themselves in any way possible to help a refugee. Because they know it's the right thing to do.

If there is a God, they are in the palm of God's hand. They are God.

[manjit]

Hi Tucson - thank you and fair enough. We must each live with our own "burdens", some will dance ecstatically with their "load", and some will trudge cautiously :) Cheers!

Dear Brian - I have just been over to your other blog, Hinesite, for the first time in years, as I was interested to know your views on politics and Trump - WOW!

So THAT'S where you real, sincere, raw, honest and "spiritual" comments are posted! I found your entries there very moving & insightful, especially your experiences and recollection around aging, health issues, family issues etc

Beautiful, and thanks for sharing.

We may have different conceptual views and opinions of "spirituality", science, "consciousness" etc.

But can I suggest the possibility?:

That whilst our bodies and thinking are indeed subject to laws of cause and effect, that the reason science has been an abject failure in coming to terms with "consciousness", is that because consciousness itself is not subject to those same laws, and that it is indeed utterly "free" from those materialistic constraints? That YOUR consciousness is free from those constraints?

I know, it is not an idea you agree with, your science books and icons - a very selective group of popular reductionists - tell you it is not so, and make all sorts of speculative and promissory claims about how they will, eventually, be able to provide the full materialistic framework for the "origin" of consciousness, claims we are no nearer to achieving than when they were first made some 200 years ago.

I can provide a very long list of scientific, psychological & philosophical books to read which demonstrate, clearly, logically and rationally, with copious evidentiary support, that such reductionists models are utterly absurd. I myself, when disenchanted with RS, became a sceptic, disbeliever etc in all these "woo woo" things, have read dozens of books written by sceptics, reductionists, atheists etc (from Harris, Shermer, Dawkins etc etc, the list is endless and goes back millennia), until I educated myself beyond what pop-culture is telling us. I have read your many criticisms, and links to various reductionist philosophers and scientists, like Tononi or whomever, and all of their arguments are incoherent, from a scientific, logical & philosophical point of view.

I have been accused of "peddling wares" here, Brian, and I just now realise that is absolutely true!

I am peddling to you the notion that, in your consciousness, which is nearer and dearer to you than your own breath (which arises within consciousness, experimentally speaking), YOU are indeed FREE from causes and effects.

It is simply a case of surrendering to that "consciousness", letting go.......

I sincerely wish you all the best Brian,

Peace,

Manjit

[vinny]

These so called innocent children and old people in third world are products of feudal landlord culture. Wicked immigrants are threat to Christians, their voting rights should be suspended to save the Christians from these cockroaches.

[manjit]

Vinny wrote above, I assume seriously and not satirically!: "These so called innocent children ............. Wicked immigrants are threat to Christians...."

This is a strange version of "Christ-ianity", is it not?

What is Jesus purported to have said on the matter, himself?:

"Matthew 18:2-4 New International Version (NIV)
2 He called a little child to him, and placed the child among them. 3 And he said: “Truly I tell you, unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven. 4 Therefore, whoever takes the lowly position of this child is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven."

Now, we can listen to and agree with anonymous posters, Vinny, hell-fire and brimstone preachers, politicians, pundits, youtube, twitter, media - basically whomever and whatever our minds are attracted to, and place their words in Jesus' mouth.

Or we can pause, take a breath, and re-read what Jesus himself is said to have said.

If we're that way inclined, of course.

:)

[manjit]

Jesus: "“Truly I tell you, unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven."

My Satguru, I bow at her feet:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rWcjArAvqZI

[Jim Sutherland]

Tuscon writes to Manjit,...”In regard to tAo.. he was threatening for a long time to quit this blog. I guess he finally did. I enjoyed his ......”

Me: just for the Record, and interest of those of you who “ think” they know tAo, he posted on Lane’s RSS site for years, under one of his other Avatars, “ Swamianami” .

He and I communicated privately for a year or more, when he was not such a RS Skeptic during that time, and he was very open, and cordial with me, privately. I obviously am privy to his REAL Name, and knew where he lived then. In fact, he even gave me an invitation to lodge with he and his Wife if I ever passed thru his area. I was a Road Warrier traveling the eleven U.S. Western Sates during that time.

We had other interests in common, beside RS. We are both Cat lovers, and he had a bunch of them that he fed Gourmet Cat food, and we shared interests about Cats, Nutrition, Teas, Coffees, and I still have some Tea Substitutes in my Cabinent he recommended, that I sip occsssionally, which is the same Brew as the Pope still sips! The Pope hails from Argentina, and I drove almost by his residence when I visited there a few years ago.

But back to tAo. Some thing drasic must have happened in his life that changed him so rapidly, from a loving knowledable American Patriot, who had Ancesters that went all the way back to the Mayflower! He shared his private life with me, like I was his Priest. I even met his lovely Wife for conversation and Coffee when she visited So. California that tAo asked me to do when I lived there. ( we met about 2005 or so, as I remember. tAo was a Charan Initiate, as was also his wife, as I recall.

But what ever happened to tAo, that changed him from a loving to a hostel angry person, effected our relationship, as well, and he started using fowl language on RSS and treating me like I was Satan Incarnate. He used to post real angry stuff, attacking me and just about all who even remotely posted any thing favorable about RSS or Sant Mat, and then he would delete his posts. So there are most likely, none left there. But he surely is no Wannabe Seeker, when it comes to Eastern Mystics and Hindu Religions. He is an Adept of the Gita!

I even invited him to be one of the Moderaters in the Forum Michael Martin started after Lane moderated and limited our Posts on RSS. I chose the Name for the Site, and our 5 Moderstors accepted it . Some here mght remember it was called “Light from Sound Oasis”, it is now defunct, since Michael’s death. His Widow asked if I wanted to continue it, but I declined, because Michael and I had had a parting of the ways and I had left the site along with the other 3 Founders because we could not all agree to agree on much of any thing, and Martin ended up turning the site in to a study of Shakesphere., before he passed away at age 67, when just about all posters on Lane’s RSS site were harpooning him. I mention him, because I privately tried to get tAo to accept Martin as an equal Brother, since we were all Charan Initiates, but tAo just could not make the transition, and refused my offer to join our Forum as one of our Moderaters..

So, the moral of his story, is, never judge a Pseudo Poster using a secret Avatar unless you get to know them privately. Why? Because you usually will be mote than surprised to find out who they are in their private lives, and if they never invite you to communicate privately, then most likely, they are hiding and running away from some thing they will never openly share on Forums like these.

TRUST is a requirement even greater than Love, before any real friendships can bloom.
So when I said posters who are Snipers always shooting at me from the secret locations, and treating me like a Mushroom, are those who other Posters who hide in secret, and never reveal who they really are, publically or privately, are those I have lost all respect for and try not to waste time responding to being bsited on these forums. I really do have a private exciting life away from RSS forums, ya know.

To answer AP’s Question to me, saying “ Who cares what you think...”.well AP. You might be real surprised to know Who, and how many care what I think!

But, you will never know, as long as you remain a Sniper. But you have my email and Name, and know where to PM me any time. BUT, then, you will need to remove your Mask and Make Make, and trust me to not expose your sectets in public or privately to others.

Cheers,
Jim

[Tim Rimmer]

Hi all

While it still intrigues and interests me, this talk of Gurinder Singh sprucing up the Sant Mat teachings to suit the times (and the Western perspective?), is in my view essentially interpretation and speculation derived from secondary sources - given that quite a few posters here no longer attend the meetings/read the literature. So until he (GS) gets down from the dias and opens his lap top to write the up-to-date version, none of us will really know where he (RSSB) stands. I agree with Tuscon that this continuing apparent discrepancy between old and new is and will continue to be confusing, especially for those who can think for themselves. If he does write something or gives the go-ahead to someone else, they must in my view, at the very least, balance the traditional teachings with an honest and in depth look at other meditation-based traditions and modern neuroscience. In particular, when it comes to their take on what consciousness is, how the mind is involved and the role/significance/importance of meditation in all this. If we relate to what Gurinder says about duality and ‘Oneness’ then the ‘path’ (now just one of many) could be simplified to a meditational methodology designed to provide insight and realisation of the later with the mind being the key ‘obstacle’.

I think Manjit put it really well the other day when he wrote: ‘how absurd and profoundly ego-centred the whole "spiritual" pursuit CAN BECOME when there is not enough clarity about our mental contents’. I believe gaining this clarity is so integral to understanding what we are - I also believe traditional Sant Mat dogma provides an inadequate take on this. As a dear friend of mine once said ‘it’s only a thought away’ i.e. not having that thought can put ‘one’ right into the present with ‘what is’.

Thinking about this also brings me to another point Manjit made re this Blog being one of only two in the world where this sort of stuff is debated and discussed AND where exposure to other’s alternative views can loosen the ego’s grip. So a big thanks to all of you guys for contributing and of course to Brian for giving us the opportunity.

Best wishes

[777]

Having the darshan of the physical master is not even mentioned anymore.

Ha Ha He's kidding
He sais drinking doesn't quench me , . . . . while I drink
HE can say what HE says
I think HE sais these things from humility

I like Tulsi who said :
The first reckognizing my as God ; I will save !!

No, . . Charan for me the finest, Just the middle way of ferocious Love
& Sound

777

PS
This is like not coming at death
because he s already there - So funny for westerners

Sach Khand not existing Ha Ha Ha Same - Is already here
Seva - kidding too - Who does it makes himself more pure & humble +°°

But meditation is another Ball Game
It's not tiny to be without thoughts while not sleeping
next BEING HIM

777

HE works hard - - - God does His Jokes

JapJI : They who hear the Song, . . . all Nature is in Blossom & Bloom°°

[Spencer Tepper]

Hi. Tim

You wrote

"I believe gaining this clarity is so integral to understanding what we are - I also believe traditional Sant Mat dogma provides an inadequate take on this."

The texts and Satssngs were never supposed to be the whole picture. The only true and lasting understanding can be what you accrue from your own practice.

That is the entire point of the path of spirituality, your practice of prayer, worship and meditation.

Reading cookbooks only has relevance if you are actually cooking. Then, your results are the clarity.

[Spencer Tepper]

"... the seeker of ultimate reality should not be content with merely studying the works of sages or saints, but should endeavor to attain their level of consciousness."

-Brian Hines, 'God's Whisper, Creation's Thunder'

Truth.

[Spencer Tepper]

Finally, one more point.

The milestones set forth in the writings of the Saints, both for inner experience, and changes in one's own outlook, only have utility as personal guideposts for one's own development as practitioners of meditation, and can never replace the supremacy of one's current experience.

You must drive the car from where you are and what you see. The writings of Saints can help you interpret what you see so you may figure out where you are, your location, and from that knowledge, and the guideposts of what's next on the journey, where to place your attention.

But like a roller coaster, once you get started, the ride pulls you up on its own power. Your job is to be properly seated in that place of thoughtless contemplation. For that we have the practice.

In the realm of both worldly and inner experience, where you place your attention determines what progress you make from your current situation, conditions and limitations. Or what distractions take you off the rails and into the ditch.

In the outer world, prolonged attention, focus, mental effort to build, leads to action. And maintaining that focus amidst barriers and difficulties leads to solutions and further action.

In the inner world it is much the same, but action there only requires thought. Returning to the point of focus leads to progress.

In the inner regions, like John Carter of Mars, simply gazing with love and devotion on the object of your love transports you there.

[manjit]

Tim - Great post & great questions!

Interesting to see how it all unfolds.....cheers! :)

[Turan]

Hi Jen. Appreciate your thoughts and comment of the 29/6. Have put a bit in Open Thread 12 - as it's not in keeping with Gurinder Singh post.

[777]

Can't help this 'weakness'
but I play piano and guitar like an idiot

This is so great a boon
that we all will be allowed to PLAY THE SHABD as long as we like

It is what the books and poets call drinking the nectar amritsar

May this be for ever

777

-
I should have started with : "Hear, . . Hear, . . Hear . . .

[Juan]

Tucson wrote:

Who really is Gurinder? Who were Charan, Jagat, Sawan and Swami Ji ?
Simple I think, Charan after completing his studies, married with children failed to make money from his profession and was looking for a better, comfortable and stable life, but because of some complications and to avoid a revolt in RSSB due to Kirpal Singh and his group, he couldn’t ascend to the Guru Gaddi after Sawan. Later on after Jagat he got a chance and his mother bid him to make sure that the Guru Gaddi remains in the family.

He too like any other person was desirous of expanding the empire and did as well up to certain extent within his abilities and the finances. The money seva was limited, whereas now after Gurinder it has multiplied to 10000 fold in many places in India. Gurinder has achieved much more Power, Money, Fame, Comfort and now last week they have taken over the SVM also a very well internationally networked organization as its leader Dada Vaswani died.

[Jen]

Is Gurinder teaching Advaita Vedanta when he speaks about Oneness?

From the posting above: "A Typical Follower" shared these thoughts:

(1) He talks a lot about The ONE
(2) He laughs and jokes a lot
(3) He tells people not to be so serious
(4) He tells them that the master will not come at the time of death - that they have misunderstood the teachings. Just as it does not take four lifetimes.
(5) He says there are no regions - that Sach Khand does not exist - neither does Sat Purush. He says they are levels of consciousness

He says the purpose is to REALIZE that there is only the ONE - and that we are caught in maya - duality.

Having the darshan of the physical master is not even mentioned anymore. He says seva will not help you make any progress - it simply makes you humble if done correctly. There is no spiritual merit.

You will NOT be able to succeed through meditation. Meditation is just to make you give up. You can never get there through your efforts.
....................

Advaita Vedanta refers to the non-dualistic school of Hindu philosophy, which is derived mostly from the Upanishads.

Advaita school believes that Brahman is the one and only reality and everything else is a mere appearance, projection, formation or illusion.

The school also believes that Atman, the individual self, has no separate existence of its own. It is but a projection or reflection of Brahman only in each being. A jiva is deluded soul by egoism, desires, and other impurities and thereby experiences duality and separation. Because of it each being is bound to the cycle of births and deaths and the laws of karma as long and remains so until liberation is achieved.

From:
https://www.hinduwebsite.com/hinduism/concepts/advaitaconcept.asp

[Spence Tepper]

"Having the darshan of the physical master is not even mentioned anymore. He says seva will not help you make any progress - it simply makes you humble if done correctly. There is no spiritual merit."

There was never a philosophy of spiritual merit. Charan Singh said Seva was just to create humility in us, to help us control ego, which would help our meditation.